Today you will discover how Nita Labs is building digital infrastructure for savings groups in Tanzania, including a digital hub called Washika DAO and a fully compliant local stablecoin, how traditional savings practices are blending with Web3 tools to help communities coordinate, save, and grow together, the personal stories behind the work, and how the founder's mothers being part of savings groups shape their approach to building, and what it actually takes to build accessible technology for communities that are often overlooked by mainstream Web3 projects. Welcome to CryptoAltrics, where we explore the intersections of Web3 and Social Good to the stories of impact-driven builders and offer actionable insights to empower your journey into the world of blockchain for good. I'm your host, Drew Simon. Now before we dive in, please remember that this is not financial or legal advice, and always do your own research on any of the projects or investment opportunities that we discussed. Welcome back for episode 251. I am so excited to have you joining today, and as I record this intro, it's a little rainy and gross out here in the Toronto area, but this episode really brought some light into the day because not only is there so much wisdom shared from our guests, but it's also part three of our series with the Solar Foundation, so we literally talk about the sun. And this is the final episode of our special series exploring the work of the Solar Foundation and their partners in Tanzania. In part one, we heard from John Ruth and Colleen Chase about the bigger picture vision behind the Solar Saving Circles model and how solar lanterns are becoming the first asset for many savings groups. In part two, we met with Colleen and Alanague of Jakuma, Tanzania to explore their savings circle pilot and dive into the history and power of community saving circles as a tool for decentralization and coordination. Today we're going under the hood. We're exploring the technology layer behind this partnership. And I'm excited to have John Ruth of the Solar Foundation back as a special co-host for this episode. And fun fact, this is the sixth time John has been on the podcast, which is the most of anyone else, so a huge shout out to John for continuing to share his time, wisdom, and positive energy with us. And we're also joined today by David Machucci and Victor Muhogachi of Needle Labs, the team building the digital infrastructure to support savings groups in Tanzania. Needlabs has developed Washika Dow, a digital hub that helps savings groups track their pulled resources, proposals, and commitments. They've also been working on NTZS, a fully compliant local stablecoin designed to support these communities. But what really stands out about this conversation is how personal it is. Both David and Victor have mothers who are part of savings groups. This isn't abstract work for them, it's rooted in their own families and communities and history. We're also going to explore a distinction that I think is really important: the difference between philanthropy and community development. Needle Labs has been clear that what they're building isn't charity. It's sustainable infrastructure designed to empower communities to lead their own progress. And so with that, let's dive in. So excited for part three of this conversation on the Solar Foundation and their really cool work that they're doing in Tanzania. And today we're joined by some really exciting folks. It's going to be an awesome conversation, kind of diving into another element of the partnerships. And uh today I'm joined by an incredible co-host, first of all, John. And John, thank you for being here.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for having me, Drew.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and John's been on this podcast many times as a veteran uh of the podcast. So I appreciate you uh being a part of it and being back. And then I have David uh and Victor from Nita Labs, uh, which I'm super excited to have you both here, Colin from uh Tanzania as well. So thank you so much for being here.
SPEAKER_03Pleasure is mine, Drew. Nice to meet you. Nice to be here.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for having us, Drew. Good to be here. It's such a pleasure to have both of you here today. Um, really excited to kind of dive into what you've been building on in this partnership. And so far, we've talked about kind of an intro to Solar Foundation, an intro to then Jukumu Tanzania and the work they're doing with the savings circles, and now bringing in Needle Labs and the the work that you're doing with the tech, the digital hub, stablecoin. A lot to talk about. So thank you for making the time to be here. And maybe to start things off, I always find it really interesting if we can kind of dive into um how you got into this work that you're doing, your journey to working with Needle Labs, and maybe just a little bit of an introduction to yourself. And so whoever wants to go first, uh feel free to dive in.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I can go first there. Um so I have a big I have a background in banking. So I used to be a bank of this, right? Um academically, I used to study in in the UK where I got like my classes in international business. Then I was fortunate enough to get a scholarship in China, and that's where I came across like all this mediator. Um came back. Um we started building around first of all, it was like a music app, music streaming app that's actually how I'm innovator. Um, and then you went from there to um pretty much how we can verify impact on change, right? So um this was pretty much after my time in banking, and um, yeah, went from there, but like even with verification of impact comes with its challenges, and I was looking to reward ways because back then with like a stable impact token. Right, and I go from there. We started working with some guys in Zanzibar to build like a digital um asset zone there, and um, that's live right now. And um, so we've kind of been like in the regulatory world, right? So um for data and impact verification, we started piloting in community currencies. Um that's where we made Ripomo as well. And we've been working then for what close to two years now. And uh we figure like all this can be very, very more cohesive if we actually have uh an actual stablecoin rather than um just an impact verification token, right? So yeah, I'll just end there and I can I can pass it over to Victor.
SPEAKER_00Um I think I'll consider myself, I'll give an introduction like my with my full name. I'm Victor Muhagachi. Uh I think I'll consider myself a builder of just being in the space building and trying to find that the Swiss port, how does technology really like make sense? You know, we caught the the entrepreneur bug early on, me and David from like back 20 uh 17-2018, you know, still in uni days. Um I had moved back to Tanzania after being studying in America for a bit. I think that was always a commission. Like, how can we, there's a lot of innovation in Africa, so especially with mobile payments. So with that, I think we always was like, okay, how can we now, with things that we're passionate about, kind of plug in technology, right? So we started building a music streaming platform, and then from that, I think David like went through it very well. We kind of kind of grew from that, you know. And I think at the core of it, I'll say we are entrepreneur builders, but also we understand the context of like how does technology really make sense in how we kind of like you know, create a circular economy in Tanzania and eventually in Africa, because I think being African, we see a lot of the problems you solve in your country can really go to other countries as well. So super excited to be in this journey. Uh now with like you know, the work we're doing with Solar Foundation and the stablecoin that we're about to uh issue like officially in Tanzania. So um that's gonna be like something that I'm really, really excited for the journey so far.
SPEAKER_01Really cool to hear your journey starting with a music streaming platform, which is really cool. And you've worked uh touched on so many different like elements of community organizing as well. And so it's really cool to kind of hear your experience on the ground and how you got to where you are. And maybe you can just kind of before we dive into the specifics of what you have been what you've been working on, and and John's been working closely with you on that. Um, so uh we'll dive into a really exciting conversation about that. But maybe to lay the groundwork, can you just give like a high level of kind of the broader vision of um what Needle Labs is and the problem you're really looking to solve in Tanzania?
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, I can I can I can start on that. I think Needle Labs, at the core of it, we're really trying to uh create an infrastructure for programmable payments. With this, is we understand in Africa people will always have mobile wallets and then have banking wallets, but I think the next transition is having them having digital wallets. And this can help from SMEs to peer-to-peer transfer to even our digital platforms where people can meet and really exercise value in terms of like how value moves the digital space. So we think stablecoin will be at the core of it, and uh Nether Labs is really trying to be the frontier of that, showing utility in products, in infrastructure, and utility even in how you can even generate value and exposure to the Tanzanian economy from anybody globally, and really making the Tanzanian shilling um global and interoperable with other ecosystems. And we're uh we're live um on base, we have an infrastructure ready for like you know, swapping between Tanzanian shillings and other digital like stablecoin pairs that are global. And I would say there's so much use case to Kirillia and lock. And David can jump in there and also share his view on that. But at the core, that's kind of like the mission.
SPEAKER_03Um, yeah, so um I think the issue is if you're trying to build something from Tanzania and in Tanzania, the the system is a bit fragmented, right? So um it's very difficult to get like direct access to each and every mobile bank, right? Unless if you get access to like a payment service provider or like a bank. And then that again comes with challenges you need to be proper regulated, you need to have the right liquidity, and so forth and so forth, right? So it's always been difficult to connect like the local system and the product ecosystem, right? But blockchain technology pretty much any of the server, right? So um we started exploring with USDC specifically for even with the communities we work with and how we can reward impact there. But again, like we understand like even with USDC, it is a more interoperable way with the way people transact every day, right? People over here on the ground they don't really use USDC, right? But they use Tanzania shillings, right? But and they have mobile money wallets like Peter mentioned earlier, they have direct access to bank accounts, right? So they're pretty familiar with something, right? So they realize like the easiest way to get these guys on chain and interoperable is pretty much if we had like a proper popa rope of stable coins, like it um and deep interoperable. So that pretty much led to what they're building HZS, INEDA, and um yeah, all our products run now pretty much run to the XZS engine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's really cool. That's awesome. And I love like what you said too around like just kind of connecting it to like the local to the global and you know, the launch of the of the stablecoin as well, uh based on the Tanzanian uh local currency, which is really cool. Because I think one of the criticisms we hear about stable coins, specifically US-based ones, is it's kind of just exporting US monetary policy. And so it's really cool that you're building a currency that's local and local based that people can transact in that brings them on chain and kind of also then helps bring that, as you mentioned, Victor, kind of make that part of the global economy as well and bring that uh currency to more into the global economy, which is really cool. So that's fascinating. And, you know, John, you've been working closely with these folks now for a bit uh on a number of different projects alongside of Jukimu Tanzania as well. Um so I'd love to, you know, hand it off to you now to kind of dive more into some of the specifics that you guys have been working on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it's been a really amazing partnership for the last, gosh, at least two years and maybe longer than that at this point uh that we've been talking and working together. Um, and it's been amazing to follow the journey of the stable uh coin because really these guys have been talking about that since day one, and here we are like two years later, and it's uh it's really you know fully launching and and getting all of the compliance and everything in in place. So we'll talk a little bit about that as we move forward in the conversation. But really, our journey together started with Washika Dow, uh, which is a digital hub platform, and the way we think about it is that uh our our mutual partners, Jakumu, uh Tanzania, has developed these uh saving circle groups all over Tanzania, uh, over 200 groups. And so you have all of these physical uh groups, and they're also all meeting oftentimes at this physical hub in uh in the local area there. And so um what we've really set out to do and and what these guys have been building all along has been this digital framework that really sits on top of this physical uh hub. So would love for you guys to talk a little bit more about uh Washika Dao and kind of where we've where we've come and where we're going. And and I'm happy to kind of add in there, but we'd love to to hear from you guys since you guys are really have been uh been building on this for a long time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, of course. Um that's the fun part, right? Um so Washika Dao is actually um a Swahili word for um stakeholders, right? So it's like uh went to there in um Dao and Dao, right? And pretty much we've been trying to get these guys more coordinated, and uh we believe the best way to do that is machine, right? So um these communities pretty much do everything that we're doing with or we're just trying to bring it on chain, right? So they meet up like what um every 10 days, they um have two person who doesn't scan each other and and get this universal basic income token which creates for like what I think two dollars every week. Right, so they pull money together, they make collective decisions, right? So they maintain value within the community pretty much, right? So um it's just they've been facing some challenges um in most of these communities, right? And that comes with transparency, that comes with um lack of um you know funding as always, so banks can really properly trace over like uh track the performances financially, right? So um we try to redefine all of that. How can we make it better? How can we add our um capital in a more productive but again in a more sustainable way? Right. So we came up with Oshkanao, um, like I mentioned, economy stakeholders, where anyone can pretty much come together, pull money together, and make collective decisions. Um infrastructure is also running on NTZ as well. But um obviously it's EVM wallets, they also hold BCC. Um, but we're trying to abstract as much as possible, right? So they come together, they make decisions, they pull money together, and uh we've been piloting various use cases with it. It's like uh solar saving circles where you can even create now like job mechanisms and equipment mechanisms for these women, right? And uh we've been financing them solar equipment and uh we've seen great advantages there that I think we can share more, but like we started even creating more jobs, more revenue streams for these women, right? And we could say, like, hey, if these women can actually come together, make collective decisions, govern these resources properly, and now grow themselves economically, then we can even come up with other financing mechanisms, like match funding, for instance, right? So um it's still early days. We mean really, really trying to build with this community, um, not just financially but even physically, right? So we even have like a physical hub there. Um and again, we have worked really, really close with Ari Nagel, who's actually there on ground, and I actually wish he was at this goal. Um, but yeah, uh I think they can end there, and Victor can definitely shine more on the amazing baby doing ground.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Now I like I like what David said about uh the digital and the physical element of it. So um just to backtrack a little bit as well, this all started with something we launched there with uh a UBI token called Nyota, kind of just showing the utility of like how being on chain can really transform. And I know if uh if you had a Linago in the previous episode, you definitely mentioned this. Um and I think at the COVID, what Washkadao is doing is really mobilizing funds. And we can see proof of this with like if people if these people can meet, and we have on-chain proof of people meeting every 10 days, and it's this is numbers of 63 on average to 70 people. That's that's a lot of people meeting at one time, and there's people stay in the same area. Um, with the Newton token, it's it's only acceptable in that area. The demand of that token as it goes, it always shows you that, hey, this is capital that's trapped in this one area. Now, if we can mobilize even now traditional capital like that, that really is very powerful, you know. Now, tying that to like you know sustainable ways of like using like solar appliances, uh, you know, having like alternative cooking energy. Now, these are things that in practice sound good for impact, but now with a framework around it, it's really now showing capital really uh being put at work. And there's what we're doing with like on-chain is like just keeping track of that, ensuring like hey, if liquidity is concentrated in this area and people are using like the coolest thing about what we're really trying to prove with for Shkadal is the proposal feature. Like they've been like the like disunlock things like match funding, like why fund is being like used in a particular use case, and now any results that come out of it is data that we learn from. Like, okay, what is really working, what is really not working, and then alternative credit scoring. This is a big problem in Africa because you guys know about the community saving groups. This is not a new concept, but then the same groups, when you find in traditional infrastructure for payment, they're giving loans for 12%, 16%. The only time the loans get smaller is when they borrow against themselves, right? Now, this is a peer-to-peer lending, what DeFi is all about. Like, I have proof of this because my mom's part of like Sarcos groups and saving groups, and she's she's getting credit for you know 12%, and she's paying a lot over time. So you're like, okay, if the reason why is that they don't have a tracking mechanism for this. So we're hoping with Washkadau, and as it grows, and you know, the tech, the protocol matures, this can be single-digit loans for community saving groups, capital mobilization and impact, you know, moving in a sense that, okay, I can keep track of my funds because now tying this with like stable coins and like you know, at uh liquidity that's digital, it really changed the game because now I can really see my money moving and where it happens and where is it in circulation. And what we're really trying to do even further down the line is allowing like endpoints for how a stablecoin can be like mobilized. So at point of purchase, at retail, you know, at when in traditional rails you already you already use, which is mobile money, and we can even go a step further using USSD code. Now I think these are things that we're thinking, like infrastructure-wise, but at the core of it, what Washikadal really does is just mobilize capital so anybody, any member of community can have access to liquidity anytime that really now puts their you know what they do into work and they can never run out of money at the core of it, right? Because if you ask Africans what's really the problem and why we're not like you know, uh participating in the economy more is capital. How do we mobilize that? Infrastructures like this can really, really help, you know.
SPEAKER_01Hearing you talk about so many different ways that you're like bringing like simplifying things and making it accessible, and hearing about how you can use like USSD, which has been around for decades, and you know, a basic technology to allow phones to kind of communicate between each other. Like so just creating the infrastructure that meets people where they're at, you know, is really incredible. And I'm gonna dive into that later on. But uh, John, I want to pass it back to you uh to dive a bit more into this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I love that you you mentioned, Victor, just the the personal connection. Um, you know, the I think the thread that that weaves through these three conversations that we've been having about our work together is is the idea of a saving circle. And um, you know, amazing for you to to mention that, you know, it's your your mother's involved in in saving circles in in uh in her community, maybe even your grandmother's. I mean, this is a this is a technology that's been around for a long time, and I really that's what has drawn me to this from the beginning, is just that this is something that is so uh this technology already exists. We're just adding this new digital layer. And I feel like that's with everything that we're doing, it's just like adding a digital layer to existing systems that already work instead of reinventing the wheel. And compared to so many things that are built in crypto where we're trying to reinvent everything because it's the brand new thing, this is really taking from all the lessons that that you all have learned from you know, from your mothers, your grandmothers, and your communities uh of the past, and then just adding this digital layer on top of that. And I just think it's so powerful to begin to add that transparency that crypto can bring to this whole puzzle. Um beyond that, and I'm happy to have you comment on that as well, but I I think also we we should talk a little bit about the stablecoin because for me, this seems like the next unlock that really starts to make this work. And part of the reason it makes it work is that it makes onboarding folks into this um into this ecosystem uh much more of a possibility, much more feasible. And as much as anything from what you guys have told me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but really even with USDC, there are small fees that are involved in you know transacting and and off-ramping to to shillings. And and while you know it's easy for me to sit here in the US and say, well, it's only a few cents. Well, yeah, it's a few cents, and that's a big deal and in these communities. And so with the stablecoin, it's gonna allow much cheaper transactions and it's really gonna really help to facilitate more onboarding um onto the platform and and and all the other tools that you're building. So, you know, I would love for you to talk a little bit more about you know your personal connection to this, but also this the development of this stable coin and and how you see it supporting the savings groups and the broader community.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, totally. Um so yeah, by the way, just before I forget, right? So the biggest cost is pretty much on ramping, right? So like um trying to get the UCC, right? But it's pretty much more expensive because like you'd have to find multiple agents or like face multiple FX rocks, right? So there's charges there. Right. So even if you were to fund these communities or invest in those communities, like even if you were to give them like single-digit drones, for instance, like VIP was mentioning, like the payback would still feel like more painful because it's still unwrapping it to another guy compared to like if they easily unramp to like uh um NTZS and easily swap to USDC, which would be far, far cheaper. Right. Um, but yeah, so with our stablecoin, like I mentioned, right? It's fiat backed, um uh backed with Tesanian shillings, and that's a bit super, super easy for it and the central bank to understand what we're trying to do. Right. And we are very, very compliant. So we do pretty much everything that CERPL does, right? That goes for uh independent monthly attestations, you know, having independent auditors come in, check what we change in the reserves, you know, our main tier redeem process. Um, all our contracts are audited as well. Right. So even in terms of like leaving to the central bank, it's been easy for them giving us initial parameters to deal with, right? Um fortunately they've been super supportive as well. Um, and they just gave us our approval so we can actually kick off uh anytime now. Um that's gone also a long way. Even in terms of like helping find even cheaper mechanisms to get on chain, right, for these groups and these communities. Because even at the moment, um it was using like a wrapper that uses a PSP that's actually connected to the bank, right? So like even they charge fees on top of other fees and other fees. But now once we have this approval, we can get direct access to the banks, and it's gonna be super easy, super seamless for even these just to be able to change, right? So uh that was the whole essence of of building entities of this. And the goal there is pretty much to make it super affordable with various use cases where it's local, um, or even if it's cross-border payments, um, and basically just go for that, right? Uh make it more programmable and um hopefully also offer some yield right on top of that as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay, just add on top of that, and I really like something that John mentioned about uh just when you're in this blockchain space, you really want to be like fully decentralized and reinvent the wheel. But then there's this also beauty about um you'd be surprised how many things are just decentralized, it's just they're not accounted for as efficiently as they could, you know, especially from where we're from. So we really anchored down on like what David mentioned, like what are the rails that are more efficient, right? Like the the the cost of on onboarding someone on chain should not be a limitation if you um we use the same technology efficiently. So for us, we're like, okay, let's build our own stablecoin with traditional rails and just adhere to the same standards that you would. And with this, it really opens the door. Uh so some of the things that I feel like moving forward would be the most essential things is the platforms that uh digital assets live on. For us, I think we think Washkadao is going to be a very, very big platform in a sense. Um, it's not really solving a problem, but it's updating what already works, right? Uh, groups, eventually, if we can now, like, I think the maturity of how our product will uh will grow is having your wallet can allow you to interact with all these systems that are already there. And then your your mobile wallet or your bank become the rails that get you there. But then the utility that we give you is like, you know, the transparency, um, the yield that you can bear from like you know, pulling resources together, access to cheaper, like you know, credits for you know from pooled funds that people already do, but now it's accounted for. But now with most security layers using blockchain, you can borrow from like anybody anywhere as long as they're part of the pool, right? And then the smart contract and the infrastructures that you put becomes really just the governings, the governing tools. So we really see that vision as something that we can really unlock. And the pilots we're doing, let's say, with uh solar foundation, are really crucial in showing this steps by step. So we think like now we need the solar lantern, we're really thinking about how do we update our proposal feature to become something that's a source of truth that becomes a stamp. And then now any request that the that like anybody part of the group does or a member of a group does becomes like their voucher. Now I can really go crazy with like, you know, now with Wii technology, we can really go deep in terms of even NFTs and like, you know, tracking and things like this. But I think the core of it is like how do we mobilize the funds that we have and keep track of it? So the pools are always growing, but they're serving a purpose because I believe if you give people access to channels and infrastructure they can use to kind of access utility of around money, they will pay back and the pool will grow. Because like um the default ratio in Tanzania is so low compared to the interest rate that we pay. So this should always um I always like to look at it from that perspective and say, like, yeah, it's risky to credit Tanzanians or Africans because they don't have good credit scoring. But then you should ask yourself, how many of them are running away from this rate? That should be your indicator. Like, oh, so out of like this really examples of like banks telling you we have 2% default rate, 1% default rate, and then they go and brag about how much shareholder dividends they give back. That should be like, hey, maybe you should kick that back off and have more liquidity and we push a single-digit credits mission. And I think platforms like this can now should set that framework, and we're not uh shying away from working with banks. We want to work with banks, we want to work with like uh regulated financial institutions, and then this can become the pathway of like where they can, because these guys have liquidity. So if we can show them how to really efficiently mobilize it, it could be a good uh stepping stone to even impact funds to show, like, hey, these groups in Burahati right now paying back all their loans, but they're mobilizing themselves. Do you want to match fund them and then use that as a voucher of showing like impact was done and capital was mobilized efficiently? And this group actually actualized what they wanted to do, and now they're growing. And the good thing about it, we're physically there with these groups and digitally becomes the infrastructure. So we have a community hub, something we're really super excited for, because then from it we can train, we have a trainer-trainer model around it as well. So ideally, these things, uh, I think early on, at least right now where we are, they need that educational factor of it and they need that physical implementation. And these KPIs make it possible rather than just being like, hey, we're working with these groups, look at these metrics we have, but like, hey, look at this space we are occupying in this particular neighborhood, look at these communities that are coming together. I think these are really strong KPIs more than just numbers on the dashboard going up uh in terms of like volumes and sale, because those will come eventually once you have the platform, right? That's how we look at it, and that's how I see like the future of Weshkadow and where we are right now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I just think that's that's all such a I mean it's it's such a big vision, and and that's something I really have appreciated about both of you uh along the way. There's there's always been this big vision of what you're building. And uh while it's it's growing maybe slower than you would like, at times it uh you are making a difference, you know, for these communities. Uh and you know, the partnership has been been amazing along the way. And um, but I I think one thing, and I think you're you're sort of leaning pointing at it a little bit with talking about how we want to be uh working with institutions. It's not we're we're not here trying to replace, or you're not here trying to replace the existing institutions, um, and and that it isn't just philanthropy that we're doing here. We're not just trying to give money away. Um and and actually at so many turns, we've been we've said, oh, we should just give this money to this initiative or this. And you guys have said, no, we we need to we need this needs to be a give and take. Like that this community doesn't want you to just give them money, like they want to be able to either give it back or or give back into their shared saving circle. Like there's there's ways that that we can make this like a mutually beneficial situation uh where it's not just just charity. And uh so I would love for you maybe to talk a little bit more about that distinction and and why it's so important for how how you approach building this technology and and you know for these communities.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think, I mean, you said it well, uh I feel like the infrastructure is not broken, like you know. Um I think guys here are making, you know, I mean, if you can wake up tomorrow, there's a system there that allowed you to do that. I think now the question is what's the quality of that, right? I think now what we really should focus on is like, okay, if there's capital available, people should get access to it. And then the the barrier to that should be as little as possible. Now, this way, I think it puts the burden on the on the community's members themselves, be like, hey, what do I really need to do to like you know, start challenging my challenging myself to have that personal uh self-reliance on myself in the value that I add to the community? Then you find, okay, we know like by yourself will be challenging to grow. So now if you're already part of a group, there's value you share. Some of the learnings we got from like uh the UBI token, I think this was very crucial for us. Was when we started, the goal was to get 20 people. Now you find a lot of people be like, okay, I want to accumulate these tokens so I can get a cash back. Because you know the tokens are free, you just have to show up, scan my phone, I got money and go, right? And they were like, no, no, no. The idea is for you to circulate so you can spend it with someone else. Now you gotta make sure that someone else understands why they need to accept this token, right? And then one of the ideas that came out, this was not even from us, was the community members themselves like, what if we use it as a discount? So if I'm selling, let's say, this bag for 3,000 shillings, I'll give it for 2,001 Yota. You know, that a thousand kind of offsets it. So that's almost a 10% discount, right? Now you realize, okay, so that brought the price down. So the cost of getting something just changed because of a new asset was added, which was a trust score, if you really think about it, right? Now, how does that translate into philanthropy or like, you know, give away money? It says like, okay, the entry is that most people really need capital because they're going to utilize it and add a profit from it. So if we focus on like, okay, how secure is your profit line, which is like your community, your network, your marketing, things that traditionally you would do in any market, then the asset of how you you trade, it becomes liquid enough because the capital is always there. So we don't have, I mean, we don't have like millions of dollars to mobilize, but even with a thousand dollars for small service goods and uh like for small SMEs, things that are really, really under a dollar or two usually have a multiplier effect. So if I can make a margin of at least five to three percent of that, and I'm not charging fees and I'm not losing this capital, you realize, oh wow. Now what I needed was capital, it's available, but now I need products and a market to sell this product to, and demand and supply becomes what moves this market. Now I think what we really at the core of it are really providing is the liquidity engine for supply and demand in a community that people already bring, come together for value. Now it really becomes now the challenge of the community is mobilize yourself to add value among yourselves, goods and service. So now you find you're actually growing skills in people by in allowing them to be like, hey, there's demand for your skill set, there's demand for product you offer. Now, this is a very big thing than giving money for people. Tell them get a particular skill set, solve a particular problem, you will earn from it, and we have capital for you to start. As long as that roadmap is there, you will make money. And as long as you can make profit one time, we believe you can always do it again. Now, the job for us is like, and the community and the member of groups you are, is to educate them. How do I solve problems, how do I add value, if liquidity is there. So that the liquidity becomes almost part of this engine and that all of fuel that adds to anything that you will reward you for participating. Because I think what discourages a lot of Africans, at least from my experience being from the continent, is you could try so hard and nothing could happen. That that is a very big possibility. I'm sure it's even in other parts of the of the world, right? Because we're really seeing the global economy is really changing. So now from where we're from, we're like, okay, if capital is there, uh, you trying should be we should be rewarded, right? But as long as if it's a pool defect, the risk is kind of like diversified. Because like, oh, this is our money. Like, I'm I'm not gonna lose 30% of it. I'm gonna lose 1%, Joe is gonna lose 1%, David won, Drew won. It's it's you can take 1% loss. But if we all lose, if one person lost 30, it's like that's that's a big hit, you know, if 30 of people run away. But if you run away from my liquidity, they're liquidity. So that becomes an easy way to diversify. But then also the same way is like, oh wow, I have a multiply effect when I come in because like, oh, everybody's contributing to my cause. I have this market already. So I think for us is like if we can structure that, I think philanthropy and impact meet reality and supply and demand because the market really does not care about your need, it cares about supply and demand. But our attitude and our habit and skill sets, these are very important things to cultivate among people and how we think about money, especially in Africa. So I think that is a core catalyst that if we can really unlock with uh with Washikadao and our stablecoin, it could really power charge a lot of these things.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely. That's amazing. Uh yeah, no, that's great. And you've done a great job kind of outlining, and it's so cool how you have so many different mechanisms that you're all working on here. And you know, one thing I wanted to ask you about because, you know, when you're dealing with these sorts of things where a lot of money's moving and you know, stable coins, uh, a local currency that you mentioned with the UBI that, and you know, you're having to build trust with, you know, folks to be able to take on that risk and invest in that and take a part in that, but then also like, you know, shop owners and others for on-ramping and off-ramping. And, you know, I'm curious, like, it can be hard to build trust in Web3, especially in you know, communities that have traditionally been excluded from like traditional financial systems. What has been your strategy and and kind of how have you found success in building partnerships and trust, you know, within these communities that you're working in so that they feel comfortable, you know, engaging with this platform?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so um unfortunately or fortunately, like trust has a big part to do with finance, right? Um, and um again, like that's where we're grateful to someone like Arinagu who's actually been working in this community for a while. So even like plugging into these communities has been like super straightforward, right? Because they work with the local government there. Um so even when we go engage with them, most of the time, even more often than what we meet, the local government as well. So um, we get to engage with them. For instance, even last time we go to meet the police officers over there, um, who are also benefiting, for instance, from um the solar solar from there, right? Um, but yeah, that's pretty much the biggest thing from our side. We're trying to see, like, hey, what's the biggest way we can actually make impact? But um, how can we actually now connect with them in a very, very trustful way? So one thing is trust, right? Like once they trusted us, we were able to write that different pilots there. Like Vic mentioned, we started piloting with NOTA, which is basically a community currency, and um that grew from one thing to another, and like it's just been going from going, right? So um, most of these groups they use um mComa, for instance, which is like um a digital version of M Pesa where they used to like invest, right? Okay, not invest, but I mean like collect report money together, kind of like a washing canal, but like unless storage um and um that has its challenges, right? So one being like it's unlimited to like voter com users, especially on the front interface, other than that it has to be like um to USS League, right? Like mobile penetration is high, um a lot of people have internet these days. Um, so like there's no point of even like excluding other users, even on the front side and things, right? So um that's also another reason why I also decided to build a shadow. But um, yeah, like trust is the biggest thing in terms of like finance, right? So we even tried to now move these guys from like MPESA and MWPESA to now even getting them on Shadow, right? And um uh always looking for the smoothest provider, right? Because we had a challenge, like for instance, I think Bordercom was being supported. Um but like now we have this approval that means we can get direct access to the banks and mobile money operators, so um everything should be smoother and build up on that trusting, right? Because if these members feel like hey, this is a place I can put my money, I can collectively govern, I can even like get alternative sources of uh financing as capital, then it creates that whole word of mouth and spread to uh within within two different communities, right? So it even makes it easier to even expand in other communities, because it's also been started to engage with like uh financial uh sector to even trust and try to see like hey, how can we expand more on this pile of like uh we're doing here, right? Um but yeah. I think trust and and and being able to work with these communities first hand and on ground has been the biggest um driving factor for us as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'll give I'll give a major shout out to John and Colleen from Solar Foundations for this as well. Um, especially with the pilots we've done with like um the solar lanterns, the pressure cooker, setting up uh physical, like I mean the Yukumu Hub is fully operating on on solar for their day-to-day electric electrics need, um, covering their internet as well, you know. So I think this physical presence, like David mentioned, makes makes trust something that you don't think of was like, oh, those guys are right there. They're not like this imaginary group that are, you know, um online, but it's like a physical presence. And now with the with the computer lab, if we can actually execute that once once that is available and people can have a learning center there, I think that those types of things really double down on the trust factor that uh we are presence in these areas and not just you know online where you access us via your devices.
SPEAKER_02Well, we've loved to seeing how much the solar appliances, particularly solar lanterns, help to build trust from from day one as we try and transition people into a more digital world. It's like here is this asset. And and I think that being able to give a physical asset uh to these communities as a way to help onboard them into this builds a lot of trust from the beginning and provides solar and uh electricity to to people that don't have it. So I think it's just such a win-win on that front. And um, it it's been so great working with you all because as a quote web three nonprofit, we've always called ourselves or a crypto nonprofit. Really, most of our work until we started working with you all was just that we were transacting in crypto. We were raising crypto money, we were sending it to organizations to do good work. All of the partnership with with uh your team has really helped us to take that next step to really use these tools to reinvent um the way that we work and uh the kind of impact we can make. And so it's it's really been a pleasure. Um, and it's such a great uh you know, synergy having both Neta Labs and then Jacumu with Alinagwe, like all of us together, it really feels like this strong team that not only are we able to try and support in in whatever way we can, but you all are on the ground, like you're saying. Like you're really working there, and that's that makes all the difference in the kinds of work that we do. And I think it really sets us apart from a lot of different uh charity type of organizations that oftentimes kind of spray and pray. They throw some money here and there and then really disappear. And and we really try and have that lasting impact and lasting uh connection to communities, and and our work with you has really helped to facilitate that. So um that's really been huge. Talking a little bit about the future, like what what excites you guys most about uh about the work ahead and and what's next for Nano Labs?
SPEAKER_00I would say for for the work for NTZS and the stable coin, I think what's really exciting is I think we've we feel like we just started, you know, some of these things, even though we're closing big big milestones ourselves that you know, could because we we're in in the ground on this every single day. Uh, but at the same time, you feel like you really have worked so much, but at the same time it's just starting. So that's the exciting part because it's like everything we're doing is so fresh, it's so new. So it's it's something that needs a lot of uh onboarding and education. So strategically plan placing ourselves in a play in a position that can really actualize this uh infrastructure for uh programmable like payments, in a sense like we can really showcase like digital assets, can really bring more liquidity to the economy and allow to solve a lot of problems that people are facing in transaction fees, cross-border payments, uh peer-to-peer, like you know, liquidity, like mobilizing that can actually bring impact. That is something that we really want to see in the next five, five, ten years, and also contribute to the Tanzanian vision of the uh we want to be a trillion dollar economy uh by 2050. So we are hoping Middle Labs if we can contribute at least 1% of this uh coming into with the with the digital assets with our stablecoin, that could be a big, a big win. Uh, and for um for Washikadao and the work we're doing together, I think to put it out there in the universe, if we could have a marketplace for impact that is verifiable, that is seeing real people and real like communities accessing to uh utilities and tools they need, I mean, especially capital, could be a big win. And I see we can definitely do this because we have a strong team, and um I'm happy with everybody that's in and this call and the world we're working with. I'm super excited for that joining.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's amazing. Uh, did you have anything you want to add, uh David?
SPEAKER_03Um uh I think even in terms of like Wash Kadao's side of things, even trying to scale our impact, right? Like most of our work has been around Worahakti, which is like just one section in in um Dar Salaam. But um, yeah, like I mentioned, we'll be trying to talk to guys like FSDT and see how we can potentially also scale this, right, in other areas, right? Like just piloting and testing out the technology, right? Um, and uh we also work closely with the central bank, right? So we also feel like this is gonna be a really, really huge use case to show to the central bank and be like, hey, um this is how like saving groups can actually also benefit from this technology, right? This is a real, real world use case, it's not just um crypto speculation because because most people still think like um uh when when people talk about crypto or stable coins, it's misconceived as uh Bitcoin and those are volatile assets, right? So um yeah, hopefully you can show more of this utility and um we are hoping to get into the sandbox and operate for at least a year then get advanced from there. On the edge and side of things. But uh yeah, I think it's too early days, and and like we mentioned, we have a really, really solid team. We might expand it a bit, but like it's pretty much pretty much still gonna be lean. But um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. Yeah. Um, well, obviously, uh, you know, lots of plans for the future, lots of opportunities for growth. You're really looking to scale this into you know a big thing for the community and the world. And so, you know, I'm sure folks listening along uh are interested in in getting involved, maybe learning more, supporting, partnering. Um, where should folks go to connect with you and what's your call to action for listeners?
SPEAKER_00Um definitely follow us on socials. Uh we're on on Twitter at Nether Labs, uh NTZ underscore core, uh, and Netherpay as well for this our flagship product for global payment. And we will soon have uh Washikadow investor portal. So this is where I think this is something we've been talking on the last course. Something maybe by end of May we'll have something where you can donate, contribute, and match fund group setup or part of the product. So be on the lookout for that. I think John and David can speak more on this, but I think this is kind of like where we want to be. And uh please reach out. Uh wanna do more Twitter spaces, X Spaces, if you want to join, um, support the movement, hold into Z and support Washcadal.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, um uh so there's also another thing that we pretty much didn't mention. We have a market maker system that enables pretty much any market maker to come in and provide liquidity and earn from it as well, right? So it's just any market makers as well, but they also check it out on our uh NZS side and see how it works there. Um, but yeah, I think the guys mentioned everything. You have a lease point community for NetAPay. Um, we also have a WhatsApp community there as well, uh, for NetAppay and XZS, and you have our solutions on Mintin, um X as well as Instagram as well. So you can catch us there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and for folks listening, don't worry, I will include all those in the show notes. Uh but John, did you have a call to action or anything you wanted to add?
SPEAKER_02I I was just gonna add that uh particularly for any investors out there that haven't really worked in Africa, I know sometimes uh that region of the world can get a bad rap in terms of financial stability and things, but um really right now, uh from everything I've seen and and what the team has told me, the the Tanzanian shilling has been doing very well and is very strong uh compared to a lot of currencies. And so in terms of uh maybe making a first investment in the in the region, I think it's uh at least something to look into, not financial advice, of course, but um but I think it it I think p I think folks would see that uh that it's a little different picture in Tanzania than than some uh countries in Africa. So uh definitely check that out for for any market makers out there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely. Very good. Uh well thank you for sharing that and and thanks for everything that's been shared. It's been a really you know exciting conversation. And I'm just blown away with all the different things you're working on. I mean, because you got you know the UBI, obviously, the stable coin, you have the um, you know, the the proof of personhood element, which is another thing that kind of connects everything together. So it's really incredible what you've been working on. And so obviously there's so much more we could cover. And so, folks wanting to learn more, all the links in the show notes, of course, uh you can head there. Um, and as we near the end of this conversation, uh there's been a consistent theme that's come up a couple of times. And this has been a theme that's been in all three of the episodes we've done in this series. And it's around that, you know, there's so many great mechanisms for coordination that have been around for a long time in these communities, and one of them is saving circles. And, you know, the technology isn't about recreating that or, you know, creating, you know, decentralization from scratch, because as we know, decentralization has been around in these communities for a long time, but really about enhancing it, helping scale, helping connect, you know, the local and the global, right? Um, and I think another, you know, important piece of this when looking back at the history of saving circles and the traditions that play into this is that I also understand, and you mentioned it earlier, that you know, that your mothers are part of savings groups and that it's an important part of their lives uh as well. And so I'm curious, like, you know, how this personal connection and you know all this has really kind of shaped your your approach to this work and what you're building.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's it's pretty much just trying to um enhance social capital, right? Like we've we've both been passionate about like how we can um see these communities thrive. Right. Um, because like almost every other person's mother here doesn't end, I think in most African countries are involved in some sort of community of some sort, right? And this goes from governance and funding as well, whether it's in church or whether it's in work or even just friends and family and and people just always come together, pull money together. Um, but like they use the same fractured infrastructure, right? So um we're trying to solve that. Um, and we've been trying to say, hey, what's the easiest and what's the smoothest way we can do that, right? So that goes a long way. And it goes pretty much in every essence of the work that we try to do with all our products and even the infrastructure itself, right? So um we're trying to abstract as much as possible, right? So I always joke around with Victor, like, hey, when it gets to a point where my mom can use NTZS and NetAppay, that's actually where we can track it, right? So um that's been the essence trying to abstract as much as possible, and that's been the ethos that we carry every day when we're building, right? So even with these communities that we engage with different skaters, we don't really tell them like, hey, you're transacting, for instance, with USDC or MAIS, or with ATZS on Maze, or you need some gas fees to transact, you've abstracted all that, right? So um they uh you've paid the gas fees for them so they don't have to pay any gas fees, right? So they can just sign up with a mobile number or um email and just get a wallet, right? So um, yeah, abstracting as much as possible has been has been our way of leaders.
SPEAKER_01And I love what you said too, around like uh you know making it so that your your mother could use it, right? And making sure that it's uh simple enough and accessible. And so it's cool that you can kind of like use that as a bit of a test. And and you know, you know what, you know, from from communicating with your mother, from seeing her participate in these groups, you can see the challenges and opportunities that you know the tech can bring to those savings groups. So that's incredible. So thank you so much for shaving, David. And and Victor, love to go to you and hear your thoughts on this and how this has all kind of shaped your approach.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I don't think I can uh understate what David said. He's been saying all the time. My mom needs to use this, bro, because that's the only way, you know. Uh so I would say that is the that is the mission. Like, um, how can we simplify and orchestrate these payments? And I think that's what it shapes it, like simplification, abstraction. Uh, entry should be as easy as possible, and redemption should also be the same way. So if we can, if we can, because I uh we we openly say we're building infrastructure, so architecting this to the simplest way that anybody can come in. And I see like maybe our children in the future even using this, that is the motivation. So is upgrading what we found, you know, from the great people who build mobile money and really allowed Africans to really transact using like you know, familiar like rails, but uh really showing this like this movement of capital. But now I think we're coming in from the second generation of being like, okay, this needs to be as cheap as possible. You should actually get paid when you when you send money or these radical ideas. I think this is what really is coming into. If a mom can understand crypto, and I imagine what our children will do, they'll they'll transform it and put it in, like, you know, uh making payment, something that rewards you because you're adding value to a particular need that someone is doing. So I think um that is kind of like something that's in the five, ten years from now, if we can look back and say we we started this engine and you know it's propelling, it could be amazing to kind of like see how it goes.
SPEAKER_02In the words of Colleen, you know, amazing ripples of impact. The the real ROI here is is the the ripples, both to your mothers down to your children someday, uh and generations to come. Uh, you know, the the work that you're doing really has this potential to to have a really huge impact on the way that people uh transact and save and and really just the strengthen communities, which I think is so much of the work that that we're all doing here. So really, really appreciate you and and shout out to both of your mothers. I'm not sure that they'll listen to the pod, but uh, but appreciate them because uh without them you wouldn't be around and and in a couple days here in the US, it's Mother's Day. So yeah, shout out shout out for the the mothers out there listening.
SPEAKER_01Yes, that's true. Here in Canada as well, uh on Sunday. So that's that's so cool. That's awesome. Um that was a great note to end on, too. So so thank you, John. You're an awesome co-host. Appreciate you taking the time to be here. Victor, David, you've dropped so much wisdom today, and you're doing so much great work. So thank you for that as well. It was a real pleasure. So thank you to all three of you for taking the time to join today and share your wisdom and experience.
SPEAKER_03Thanks, Drew, for having us and goes, but thanks so much.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Drew, so for having us. And that was David and Victor of Needle Labs and our wonderful co-host, John of the Solar Foundation. What a perfect way to close out this series. Because what stands out to me is how grounded this work is. Needle Labs isn't building technology and hoping communities will adopt it. They're building alongside communities they're already part of, shaped by personal relationships and lived experience. I also appreciate the clarity around community development versus philanthropy and how this isn't about outsiders coming in to help. It's about creating infrastructure that empowers communities to coordinate, save, and grow on their own terms. And the tools are impressive with Vashiga DAO for tracking pooled resources and commitments, a fully compliant local stablecoin, and a vision for how these pieces fit together to support savings groups across Tanzania. But the tools only matter because they're built with real understanding of what these communities actually need. This wraps up our three-part series on the Solar Foundation and their partners in Tanzania. And so far we've heard from John and Colleen about the vision, from Colleen Alanague about the savings groups on the ground, and now from David and Victor about the technology making it all possible. Together, these conversations paint a picture of what community-driven development can look like when it's done right. It's rooted in tradition, powered by technology, and led by the people it's meant to serve. So, for listeners who want to learn more about Needle Labs, the Solar Foundation, or Jukumu Tanzania, we've included all the relevant links in the show notes, including the links to the past two episodes, and a huge thank you to David and Victor for sharing your work and your stories with us today, and to John for co-hosting this episode. And that wraps up today's episode of CryptoUltras. Thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. If you're inspired to explore more stories at the intersection of Web3 and Social Impact, be sure to visit us at CryptoUltras.com for articles, resources, and more. And if you love what you heard it would mean in the world if you could rate with you and subscribe to the podcast. Your support is huge in helping us reach more listeners like you and keeping the platform going strong, and this one small action really goes a long way. So thanks again for joining us, and I look forward to having you back for the next episode. Until then, let's keep showing the world for the good of crypto.