Episode 257 - Technology Is Not Destiny: Building AI and Crypto for Everyone, Not Just the Powerful, with Open Frontier

For episode 257 of the Crypto Altruists podcast, we welcome Erik Balsbaugh and Carole House of Open Frontier, a non-profit advocacy organization and a leading voice on how digital currencies, Artificial Intelligence, and emerging technologies can empower underserved communities and advance the values so many of us care about: inclusion, accountability, and financial freedom.

A few episodes back, I released a solo episode on AI, the hype cycle, and the principle of "do no harm." And the response really moved me. It clearly struck a chord, because so many of you are feeling the same tension I am. We're living through a moment of extraordinary technological change, and it's not entirely clear who it's being built for.

You can feel it in the pushback happening all around us. Communities are organizing against data centers. There's a growing unease about how much power is concentrating in the hands of a few enormous tech companies and the ultra-wealthy. And there's a real fear, one I think is worth taking seriously, that these powerful new technologies, AI and digital finance among them, could end up deepening the very inequities they promised to solve.

Here's the thing. Technology is not destiny. It's not something that just happens to us. It's built by people, shaped by choices, and governed by rules that we get to have a say in. The question isn't whether AI and digital finance will reshape our world. They will. The question is who's at the table when those systems are designed, who benefits from them, and whether they're built with people and the planet in mind, or just as another tool for wealth creation.

In today’s discussion you’ll learn:

⚖️ Why technology is not destiny, and how the future of AI and digital finance depends on who shapes it, who benefits, and what rules govern it

🌍 How values-driven communities can help build technology for everyone, rather than letting it concentrate power in the hands of the already powerful

🛡️ What "smart regulation" actually looks like, and how to strike the balance between moving fast and protecting people

✨ The most inspiring ways blockchain, digital finance, and AI are advancing inclusion, accountability, and financial freedom around the world

‍--Key Takeaways--

⚖️ It's not about blocking technology. It's about building it wisely. The conversation we too often get stuck in, innovation versus regulation, is a false choice. The real goal is smart regulation: thoughtful guardrails that enable innovation while protecting people and the planet. Done well, regulation isn't a barrier to progress, it's what makes technology safer, more trustworthy, and more broadly beneficial. The aim is to design systems that put power in the hands of everyday people, not just a select few. That means moving fast enough to build meaningful things, but carefully enough that we don't leave people behind in the process.

🔄 We've seen this pattern before, and we need to learn from it: Crypto, AI, and frontier technologies are at risk of following the same path as the internet and Web2: starting with the promise of openness and democratization, only to be captured by corporate interests and used to consolidate power in fewer and fewer hands. This is a recurring pattern throughout the history of technology. If we're not paying attention, these powerful new tools could deepen the very inequities they promised to solve. The good news is that patterns can be broken, but only if we recognize them and choose to act differently this time.

🪑 Technology is not destiny, so we need to be at the table: Perhaps the most important idea from this conversation: technology is not something that simply happens to us. It's built by people, shaped by choices, and governed by rules we have a say in. That means the future of AI and digital finance isn't predetermined. It depends on who shows up. If values-driven communities opt out because these spaces feel too tainted, we cede the design of the next era to whoever does show up. History is clear about who that tends to be. The call to action is simple: we need to be at the table.

--CTAs from the Episode--

🧰 Check out the Web3 Impact Toolkit early access

--Full shownotes with links--
www.cryptoaltruists.com/blog/crypto-altruists-episode-257-technology-is-not-destiny-building-ai-and-crypto-for-everyone-not-just-the-powerful-with-open-frontier

--Love our podcast? Consider supporting us with a Fiat or Crypto contribution!--
Learn more at https://www.cryptoaltruists.com/about/support

--DISCLAIMER--
While we may discuss specific web3 projects or cryptocurrencies on this podcast, do not take any of this as investment advice and make sure to do your own research on potential investment opportunities, or any opportunity, before making an investment. We host a variety of guests on this podcast with the sole purpose of highlighting the social impact use cases of this technology. That being said, Crypto Altruism does not endorse any of these projects, and we recognize that, since this is an emerging sector, some may be operating in regulatory grey areas, and as such, we cannot confirm their legality in the jurisdictions in which they operate, especially as it pertains to decentralized finance protocols. So, before getting involved with any project, it’s important that you do your own research and confirm the legality of the project. More info at cryptoaltruists.com/disclaimer

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Today you'll discover why technology is not destiny and how the future of AI and crypto depends on who shapes it, who benefits, and what rules govern it. How values-driven communities can help build technology for everyone, rather than letting it concentrate power in the hands of the already powerful. What smart regulations actually look like, and how to strike the balance between moving fast and protecting people, and the most inspiring ways blockchain, digital finance, and AI are advancing inclusion, accountability, and financial freedom around the world. Welcome to CryptoUltras, where we explore the intersections of Web3 and Social Good through the stories of impact-driven builders and offer actual insights to empower your journey into the world of blockchain for good. I'm your host, Drew Simon. Now, before we dive in, please remember that this is not financial or legal advice, and always do your own research on any of the projects or investment opportunities that we discuss. Welcome back to the Crypto Ultras Podcast. Thank you so much for joining today. Very excited to have you here. A few episodes back, you may recall, I released a solo episode on AI, the hype cycle, and the principle of do no harm. And the response really moved me. It clearly struck a chord because so many of you are feeling the same tension I am. We're living through a moment of extraordinary technological change, and it's not entirely clear who it's being built for. You can feel it in the pushback happening all around us. Communities are organizing against data centers. There's a growing unease about how much power is concentrating in the hands of a few enormous tech companies and the ultra-wealthy. And there's a real fear, one I think is worth taking seriously, that these powerful new technologies, AI and crypto among them, could end up deepening the very inequities they promised to solve. But here's the thing. Technology is not destiny. It's not something that just happens to us. It's built by people, shaped by choices, and governed by rules that we all get to have a say in. The question isn't whether AI and digital finance will reshape our world. They will, and they already are. The question is who's at the table when those systems are designed, who benefits from them, and whether they're built with people and the planet in mind are just another tool for wealth creation. And that's exactly the conversation I want to have today. And I'm joined by two people who are doing this work at the highest level. Open Frontier launched to be a leading voice on how digital currencies and emerging technologies can empower underserved communities and advance the values so many of us care about inclusion, accountability, and financial freedom. So today I'm joined by Eric Ballswell, Executive Director of Open Frontier, and Board Member Carol House. Carol is also a former White House National Security Council special advisor, a former chair of the CFTC's Technology Advisory Committee, and a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council. We have a fascinating conversation on how we build technology for everyone, everywhere, and the real risks if we don't act. It's about whether the technologies defining our future serve everyday people or just the already powerful. So let's dive in. Carol and Eric, thank you so much for joining today on the CryptoUltras podcast. I can't wait to dive into what you're working on with Open Frontier and to have a very important conversation about the current time and the place, uh the role that technology plays in it. So thank you so much for being here today.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Yeah. Um, it's gonna be really exciting to have this conversation. Uh it'll be a bit of a different one. Um, we've had conversations like this in the past, but I'm really excited to kind of you know dive more into how we bridge kind of progressive values and and technology because there is a disconnect right now. And, you know, a lot of the folks that I work with in nonprofit sectors are feeling a little jaded by the way that you know technology is going, and I don't, you know, necessarily blame them all the time, too. So I think it'll be a really interesting conversation about how we can change that story. And you know, I'd like to start with just a bit of an intro to you and how you got to where you are today. And so, um, you know, I'd love if you could share with a bit about your journey um and what led you to your work with Open Frontier.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Excellent. Uh I yeah, I I guess I'll go first. So uh yeah, my name's Eric Falsba. I'm a lifelong political uh activist slash hack. Uh I've got my start working on the Carrie for President campaign in 2004, where I did a lot of I ran all the youth outreach out of the Boston office. And that really hooked me into sort of cultural trends amongst young people that I took throughout my career. Uh I had worked at Dewey Square Group. I ran a lot of the big ballot initiatives around the country. So a lot of the medical marijuana, uh, a lot of a lot of questions for teachers, unions against charter school expansion. Uh, so really got a sense of what working with uh grassroots communities in order to build change. Um, but my really eye-o-opening moment on tech and crypto came in 2020, uh, where I built the ballot cure campaign for uh the Biden for president campaign in Georgia. And I got called five days before the election. They had no field program, it was the middle of COVID, uh, and they had 30,000 ballots that had been rejected for signature mismatching or other things. And so we built a program utilizing online influencers to recruit people on the ground in Georgia to go knock on people who had a rejected ballot store and get them to cure their ballot. In five days, we cured 15,000 ballots, which wound up being the margin of victory for Biden and then put us off into the set uh Senate runoff and ran the program again for the runoff, but really figured out that we were utilizing online communities, influencer communities, and like new media incorrectly, and was spending a lot of time with young people in Discord as well, and sort of realized that the left was not talking to what their actual needs were and desires. And I also saw crypto and blockchain as a really interesting way to organize online communities and build clout for people that actually did things rather than the loudest people. Uh, so I got really interested in in DAOs and DAO structures around 2020. And then um, you know, the FTX thing happened, and I was told in no uncertain terms that you couldn't work with crypto from the left, right? Uh, by a lot of uh people that I that I had a lot of trust with. I worked with Elizabeth Warren in 2012, like a lot of her team was all over me about it. But I really thought that we were missing the opportunity of what this technology could do if properly regulated. Um, and really what I saw it as is like a challenge to traditional finance and a way to equalize and make more egalitarian what our financial system was if we built the right regulations and rules around it. Um and so, you know, from there I had to have been talking to a couple friends about well, how do we actually make this happen? 24 happened where there's tons of money spent to go up against the Democrats from the tech industry. Um and it really sort of clued me into the fact that we need to be doing something different about engaging these online communities, because at its heart, uh crypto and whatnot is is a large community online, and we got to engage them and we got to be engaging everyone uh in order to build what we want to see as a future of regulation in tech. Uh so that's where open frontier came from, was sort of that desire to be engaging with uh with the these online communities, really build um uh rules and rules of the road that would allow the technology to stay decentralized and like a lot of its promise, uh, and then build a group of non-industry people from the board that would be driving real progressive values and not uh values based on monetary interests. So yeah, that's where that's where it came from. And I'll let I'll let Carol sort of tell her a much more interesting story.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

No, I think Eric's is way more interesting. Um, and yeah, it's been so cool to get to like to get to work with him. Um and knowing that we've we've come at this technology from very different backgrounds, although uh some of the issues around like voting integrity and stuff like were also a part of my job, but in a very different way. Um, I came at it like so many people do in DC, and especially in the national security community, which is you first come at it typically from counter bad guy. Like the natural evolutionary arc of most policymakers is uh, as I've seen, people starting by like, who cares about this funny money that isn't backed by a dollar, like whatever, it's never gonna be a big deal. And then, oh my gosh, so many bad guys are using it. Like, we we need to like do something about this problem. And then, oh, this is publishing to a public leisure, like cash and wire and chips, they don't do that. Like, that's really nice from a law enforcement investigative perspective to get this like constant understanding of state, okay. And then getting into the like much bigger geopolitical like issues of dollar dominance and national security. Um, that doesn't fit everybody's like evolutionary arc, but typically that's where like I see a lot of people tend to come at it. And so I was a NATSEC operator, not a political operator. Um uh and so I was army back in the day, chem bio read nuclear defense, uh, which might sound cool until you know what it is, which is all the gas mask stuff that like nobody likes. Uh um, and then I was an intelligence collection manager. And then I got into hard cyber, and that's actually when I got introduced to blockchain as a concept, but it was two words, not one word, blockchain cipher encryption as like a like a means of encrypting large blocks of data. And then um, that was my first tour in the White House at OMB and like slowly getting exposed to crypto um and blockchain as one word, where like, oh, okay, you mix this like mechanism of like large, like, you know, encryption of data with distributed computing, and you get this immutable ledger concept used for auditability and data integrity. That's cool. Um, and then I um I spent some time on the hill and met some folks at Treasury, specifically at the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, which is the the US anti-money laundering uh regulator and financial intelligence unit for the US. And I was like, oh, you guys hunt down money launderers and terrorist financers. That's fun. Do you have a cyber section? Um, so I went there, and when you get into hunting down cyber criminals at Treasury, you get into crypto, right? Um, but that's how I got into it. And then I did two tours at the National Security Council, wrote the first ever EO on digital assets. So I think that I guess tells a bit about my origin story, where I came from, and like how I've seen how I how I've seen crypto kind of evolve in like the way that policymakers have and haven't um been able to approach it. And why like I love you mentioning this need to embed progressive values into crypto policy and into tech policy more generally is totally true. And we need to be a lot more consistent.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, no, and wow, such different stories, uh, but really cool kind of experiences that led you to where you are today. And I can see, you know, where both of your backgrounds really fits into this because um, yeah, when you think about like the role of tech, you know, moving forward in the future, really there's nothing that tech isn't impacting or playing a role in in some, you know, way. And there's the security aspect, there's the safety aspect, there's the financial aspect. Um, you know, so different stories, but ended up at the same place, which is of course, uh, of course, open frontier. What's the high-level mission of the organization and what problem are you looking to solve?

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Yeah, so I mean, high level, I mean, we're trying to make sure that tech policy remains bipartisan. Um, and that we are trying to build support for setting the rules of the roads over building stop barriers and stop sign, uh, and building more effective legislation so that uh the promise of the technology can be fulfilled, that uh it's a decentralized use case that can help uh like minority communities, immigrant communities, uh communities that have traditionally been unbanked, uh, and try to sort of like make life more affordable, uh, and sort of like, you know, cut out middlemen, uh, do the things that uh are a lot of the rent-seeking behavior in our economy and make things more beneficial for everyone. Uh so you know, really trying to set our progressive voices in in the work we do uh and values and trying to make sure that those values are reflected in uh in legislation and regulation and uh at the state and the federal level.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah, real briefly just a plus one because Eric has been um has been the the leader of open frontier, and it's been wonderful working with him and the rest of the team and the board. Um, a major point of focus for us is really centered around this, the the you know, progressive values of economic mobility, enabling open competition and access, driving innovation and leadership, and but with trust infrastructure that has to be in there. And trust infrastructure means a lot of things, trust in institutions, in the technology, and so it's technological architectures, it's policy and operational architectures underlying it all. Um, really trying to invest meaningfully on making sure that those values are integrated from the beginning and not something that you try to patch on on the back end. We've we've seen the lessons in not accounting for those voices early and often in financial systems and in tech, uh, including in like the internet, the fun lessons of the internet, and not building in things like security uh and trust, um, and us trying to retrofit and patch that on the back end and how costly and problematic that that's been, not just to institutions, but to people who have suffered the consequences of um of that absence of trust. So that's a big area of focus for us. Uh it's um, yeah, there's a lot of things focused on fin tech, but also emerging tech policy, making sure that those values are integrated from the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Yeah, yeah, that's really cool. And you know, it's interesting because I think right now a lot of folks are jaded when it comes to technology. Because if you look at crypto, it's like crypto promised decentralization, but now we see a lot of kind of centralization happening around this technology or centralized actors using this technology for their own benefit. AI, we see it as something that has the potential to open the door to access to information and you know, for so many people around the world, but now the levers of that are controlled by centralized actors and and people in positions of power. So, you know, a lot of what the issues were with Web 2, if you will, or the internet, you know, as it was, is that you know, it just was used to make more rich people richer. And we're seeing a lot of that same stuff happening now with you know with crypto and and AI. But you know, on the other hand, one thing I love seeing on your website is how you mentioned that technology is not destiny. So this doesn't have to be, you know, the story as it's written, and that what matters is who shapes it and who benefits from it and what rules govern it. So there is an opportunity to kind of um write the rules right now and to um really kind of shape this as the cement's drying, so to speak. And so can you kind of unpack that for me, that idea of like technology is not not destiny and why it matters who's at the table to kind of play a role in designing this?

SPEAKER_00 14:21

Any technology in and of itself is not inherently evil um or or good. It all depends on its implementation and its use. Um, that was that's been a big point of frustration for me, especially with crypto, but also with AI, on like this the the broader vilification of the tech itself. And instead, I know Eric mentioned before um this tendency that we're seeing in some policymakers to want to do all breaks and not grabbing the steering wheel. Um, like I um ultimately I even felt this way when a few years ago, like right after the Chat GPT launch, um, there was that letter that Elon Musk and like tons of academics and people and members of civil society signed saying we should pause on AI innovation and development. Um, I I'll admit that I felt that that was um, while mostly I do believe from like a place of well-meaning, I think for most of the people that signed, even if a few people might have meant to drive some regulatory capture moments, um, I it just misunderstands the way that markets and technologies tend to grow. And what would have been impactful would have been if the wealthiest man in the world, along with thousands of researchers that are at the cutting edge of this technology, had stated, let's do a six to 12 month sprint on developing the trust tech infrastructure and architectures that would have addressed those issues around explainability and equity and security inside of those ecosystems. That would have been serious. That would have been meaningful. So, this issue of tech not being destiny, it's not predestined that it be good or evil, but we need to uh like learn this lesson about the fact that if we don't deliberately build in those protections and try to shape it, then we're gonna lose this moment. And it's like we've we've had examples of this, right? Like, including where progressive voices have been at the forefront front of driving and shaping that, even in the US. Rural electrification. I'm from Georgia and like FTR and the little White Houses down there, and like it like this this issue of trying to bring electricity uh to rural communities across the US, like trying to open up access to these technologies, um, but then also and allow for them to grow. Like the the um the driving principles behind policy for internet development, all of these, like trying to keep access open and enable broader adoption is necessary. Um, though I do think there were obviously some opportunities with the internet to maybe invest a bit more and thinking about where some of those things like security and privacy would have been addressed. Um, so I think that that's where it's not, it's not predestined that it be a certain way, but we need to invest where we know that there's these root causes and problems on trustworthiness as we're just scaling access and speed and sophistication for good and bad guys around fundamental trust tech building blocks like identity data and infrastructure. Um, Eric, like uh anything else, your thoughts. I know that technology is destiny, is something that you love speaking to about, like the fact that we can do this.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

No, and like you, I mean, I think that you gotta look at where we are in the broader system. Like, you know, like we have like this K-shaped economy. We I know from having children that transitions suck. Uh, you know, just like anytime that we're moving like to something new, like there's a lot of argita and and angst around it. And you see that a lot in especially young people who will rail against AI taking their jobs and their opportunities, but at the same time are going on ChatGPT every chance they get in order to look up answers for things. And so there's a sort of the split between people who are afraid of what technology will bring, but are also engaged with it uh at a pretty high rate, right? Um, and so there's this sort of like reaction in politics and on both sides of this is all bad. Like we're gonna stop, like, you know, whether it's Josh Hawley and DeSantis or uh like Bernie Sanders and others, uh, they're all saying that we need to sort of pause AI development or that this is a risk to our people and they're taking a very populist stance. That misses the fact that a lot of people are actually using the technology in order to like like now in order to engage in their their daily lives, right? And like we have a choice, like you know, at every single turn in the past, we've sort of failed at uh getting ahead of technology, uh, and we've let it sort of regulate itself and then come in whenever there's a disaster that strikes. And I think that a lot of people are really thirsty for something new. Uh, they want people that they want the government to get ahead of it uh and really try to set the rules of the road so that all the benefits don't accrue to 12 people in Silicon Valley, but accrue to the nation as a whole, right? So I do think that right now there is an opportunity uh for to be a really clear voice as to what that roadmap is uh and where we need to go and to push for that. And tech and AI, uh, crypto, et cetera, are at the forefront of their minds of things they want to see under control, right? Or some sort of plan for so that they're not just sitting at this receiving end of whatever the changes of the economy. And they have, you know, the 40, 50 years of experience watching this happening from globalization uh to the consolidation of companies, uh, to the consolidation of the internet era, and they've seen their lot in life getting worse and worse. So they're right to be upset. Uh and like the answer isn't like block all technology, the answer is develop policy that's responsive to those needs.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Yeah, I actually um just to add on to that point, because you mentioned like uh you're you're really hitting on this issue that we talk about often about that like we're not offering here's what the progressive North Star looks like for technology. And actually, God, we were just talking about this the other day, Eric. My frustration with I don't know if you saw Alex Karp's like manifesto maybe like a month ago or two months ago, I think it was like a month ago, um, about how Silicon Valley owes um this country. And my problem was that his version of repayment to this country, if you like as you read it, it runs almost entirely through the Pentagon. Um, but there is like Silicon Valley owes Americans more than its weapons. Like, and um, and the apparatus that helped create it was not just driven by the Pentagon and the Department of Defense. It was also like NSF and DARPA and like research institutions and communities. Um, and the harms and impacts have also reached far beyond defense applications. So I think that there's an opportunity here to give a different North Star. But as Eric mentioned, painting like here's what the positive vision and roadmap looks like to be able to drive towards this, um, instead of like just focusing on things like moral condemnation without like presenting a and here's here's the road, like here's here's the path. Um, I think that that's where some of the biggest challenges are.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yeah, that's really interesting. And you know, I like what you said earlier too, around, you know, not necessarily slamming on the brakes, but like grabbing the steering wheel and kind of writing the course there. Um, because yeah, I think that, you know, you're right, we often see these things in kind of black and white is that, you know, we need to slam on the brakes because there's all these risks, you know, on the other hand, there's all these opportunities. How do we balance those? And you talk a lot about smart regulation uh in the work that you do and kind of framed it, framing it in a way of like stating how the challenge isn't about innovation versus regular regulation, excuse me. It's whether we have the vision to design smart rules and trustworthy tech together. So, what does that actually look like in practice? We're talking about kind of the need to find this balance here between regulation and building this technology in a way that works for the people. How do we strike that balance?

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Yeah, I I think my I think the best way to do it, especially to do it timely, since we know that it takes time to put in place policy and regulations like Look where existing tech neutral frameworks already exist to regulate at the point of impact. Like, typically, like, it's not the fact of it being AI or the fact of it being blockchain that is the thing. It's where, like, oh, this is a giant cross-border money transmission system. Okay, we have financial regulations. We understand things like consumer protections and like EFTA requirements so that when you get defrauded, there's a requirement for money to come back. We understand things like bankruptcy. We understand things like capital reserve requirements to make sure that your money is actually like actually has something behind it and backing it. Um, and we understand knowing your customer. Um, so I think regulating at the point of impact um and not necessarily focusing at the level of the underlying technology. I'm not saying that's totally off limits. There are, I don't like regulating general purpose technologies like for a lot of reasons. I think I prefer doing functional-based technologies, but the exception in this country when we tend to go after the tech itself is when it can be used as ammunition. And that's certainly the the arguments right now when, you know, the same thing that can, the same kind of AI capability that can be used to synthesize vaccines can also be used to generate a bioweapon, right? Or the stuff that's used to create good code and do pen testing can also be used to, you know, command and control really malicious cyber operations. That's the fear, and that sort of drives behind why you've seen two administrations running of national security communities be really concerned around it. Those are real issues that need to be addressed. But the the easy low-hanging fruit right now is looking at where you have the point of impact, the function. And then, like, so I think that that focusing on that and then focusing on where investment and natural market incentives all also exist. Like there's lots of different incentives on the carrot and stick side. So I think it's it's building those governance frameworks, investing in the core underlying pieces that you know are needed for both, things like privacy and dignity preserving digital identity being a great example that both blockchain and AI are in desperate need of. Um, so I think it's things like governance, it's things like looking at where those underlying um like trust tech modules and components are that end up like being force multipliers for improving what we want, which is access to safe and trustworthy um solutions and systems. That's what I think of. Uh Eric, what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 24:16

No, I mean, I I mean I think that that's a much more holistic answer than very in-depth than that would give us as the political hack, right? But like it's I mean, it's mainly around making sure that like that we simplify regulations too, that we don't have like this behemoth sort of multi-edited hydras that like are very easy to get around. Um, and making sure that they're easy to understand and that we don't create loopholes that allow for centralized players in order to take advantage in order to further consolidate control. Right. Like, you know, these these are technologies that will affect every single person, uh whether it be AI or crypto, and people don't know how crypto will affect them. But this look at all the big banks that are building our own private blockchains or what uh again, like these other these other players that are out there doing that because they know that like the transaction costs are lower, they know that it can they can there's more money to be made, right? And they're building in that direction. And our responsibility is to be looking at okay, looking at the entire player playing field and making sure that, again, that we're not letting everything accrue to the smallest group of people. Uh because we're in this crazy monopoly time period of our uh time timeline, I should say, where all this power is getting consolidated, right? And like we have that, like that in itself is a threat and raises cost for consumers at every single corner. And that's what we also need to be looking at.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Yeah, that's really interesting. And we'll be right back after this brief announcement. Are you part of a nonprofit or mission-driven organization curious about Web3, but not sure where to start? We've got you covered. The CryptoUltras Web3 Impact Toolkit is a free, comprehensive resource designed to help nonprofits and change makers navigate the world of crypto and web three. From accepting crypto donations to exploring blockchain tools for transparency and impact, the toolkit breaks it all down in a way that's practical, accessible, and jargon-free. It's everything you need to take that first step, all in one place. And the early access is now live. So to check it out, head to cryptoalturist.com/slash toolkit or simply click the link in the show notes. And now, let's get back to the episode. There's such a you know an interesting kind of irony in all this uh when we look at these technologies and the promise you know that they have of decentralization, democratization. And Carol used the example of uh vaccinations, you know, how this how AI could be used to create amazing vac vaccinations or bioweapons. And, you know, at the same time, these technologies that can be used to democratize and decentralize, you know, could just as easily be used to concentrate power in the hands of the few, like as you mentioned. And so, you know, what's the nightmare scenario here? And like what are the risks of values-driven communities kind of sitting on the sidelines? And how do you really communicate the importance of them to having a uh kind of a role in this whole process of shaping this technology?

SPEAKER_01 27:02

It's the left sits out all regulation and whatnot. It's gonna be written by, you know, the most extreme capitalist version of uh of the right. And I mean, there's never been a really a case where, not many at least, where like single, like the single party legislation or regulation has actually been a good thing. Like they're usually very uh like those regulations are subject to being struck down in court. Um, you know, it becomes partisan warfare, and nothing necessary, and nothing good will come out of it. And so like it's important that like that that this is bipartisan, that even if there are things you don't like about the technology, that you're at the table negotiating a better outcome, right? Um, so like if we want to have like a fairer society, we need to act now at every single point that we have leverage in order to build that.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Yeah, abdication isn't a strategy. I I totally agree. And giving up that seat at the table history has shown that those vacuums get filled and they do not stay neutral. And right now they have been they have been filled by a lot of voices that have not demonstrated an interest in focusing on. I think like there's an unfortunate circumstance right now across both the industry uh across the industry and parts of policymaking that are focusing more on political protection than on public trust. Um, and that is what we're seeing that the consequences are. And politically, as Eric mentioned, like we saw the consequences in the last election cycle, certainly, um, of ignoring um a sector, dismissing a technology meant that we didn't get a way better framework that we had tried to put in place and being able to implement things that we knew that were good. Um, so that even if we were right and good on more strategic policy, but we didn't have a pathway in to how to be regulated and covered, like it meaningfully just ends up evaporating years of work and effort and things that we've needed to be able to defend people. Um, and we end up dismissing, dismissing a whole community of people that are worthy of our protection and worthy of more than stepping away from. Um, I am worried about that where financial nihilism that's sort of growing across parts of um communities, it's not a pathology, it's a signal, it's a concern, it's a cry for access and opportunity elsewhere. And we can shape that in ways that are safe and trustworthy. People that feel that they have no other ladders um or like openings available to them. Um, I just I think that like that that's the cost of us sitting out, is that naturally the, you know, the the arc of the universe. Um, I think like a joke that I say that's a problem is like the arc of the universe bends towards justice, but also towards centralization. Um, if you don't deliberately, like just like with our democracy, like you have to we deliberately build in and have to very much curate and defend uh and defend the decentralization and the prevention of things like autocracy and over concentrations of power. Um, we see what happens when we don't uh curate and defend that um strongly enough and consistently enough. Um, we we we have to continuously engage and curate that. Otherwise, what ends up happening is this egregious over concentration and then denial of opportunity to a huge number of people.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

Yeah, absolutely. That's so interesting. Yeah. And it almost creates a bit of a vicious cycle. I think that like, you know, on the one hand, a lot of the kind of progressive-minded, you know, folks that I chat with that are feeling really jaded around the financial system in the sense of financial nihilism, is a lot of it is that just seeing people become, you know, trillionaires off this technology or misuse it because there's no safeguards in place so they can themselves make a ton of money even though it's super unethical. And like a lot of that is due to a lack of these safeguards, which then kind of exacerbates this nihilism because people see this happening and seeing like it's so hopeless. What can I possibly do to like you know right this situation? Right. And so um, I guess for folks listening in who are, you know, wanting to have a say in this and wanting to shape the future of this technology, you know, whether they're you know in the United States, whether they're somewhere else across the world, um, whether they're you know a nonprofit impact builder or a financial person, like what is some tangible steps that folks can do to make sure their voice is heard and have a seat at the table of designing these kind of smart regulations?

SPEAKER_01 31:29

I mean, yeah, like you know, like the answer is join our community, but like, you know, like go to our website and join our email list and our community of people as we're building up, like uh we're building up a lot of uh more grassroots action calls, like ability to get in touch and build uh more sort of like progressive community around this tech so that we can communicate more directly and more effectively with legislators. Uh, you know, it's really important that we have actual human beings who are in this technology space that are ones that are communicating with uh whether the state house or uh Capitol Hill in Washington, uh, because it can't just be industry executives that are doing uh like another positioning here, right? So we need to be doing more to grow our actual everyday people that are engaged with this tech so that those stories are what are driving regulatory uh action. So sign up with our Substack and our email list, and there's plenty of ways to get involved as we're doing things uh and get engaged. Um I mean, it's I mean, it's as simple also is that a lot of legislators and electives don't ever hear from people that uh that actually engage or develop or do in this technology. So it's as simple as also like writing an email, calling your legislative office and saying who you are, uh, and that there are real people that are engaged here and want to see things going in in a direction, you'll be shocked about how long of a conversation you can have with a staff assessant or a legislative correspondent or whatever in these offices about this, and they take it to heart, right? Like, so it's speaking out, it's you know, joining like the organizations, like, you know, and like what what you do is part of this is then communicating out to a broad community of people. And we've got to build our community of people that are aligned with us on values as much as we possibly can, because that's what elected officials pay attention to is the like numbers of people, people that are communicating, what's going on, right? It sounds old-fashioned, but it's what really matters.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yeah, Eric's totally right. Engage, uh, respond to like there's a lot of regulations getting written right now, like Eric mentioned. So opportunities to write in to help inform folks that need to understand your views and where you see that like the costs and the opportunities and the good um that can come, and then vote.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, and we'll I'll make sure to include links in the show notes for folks listening along to uh follow your Substack, your website, um, to get in touch. Um, and you know, I think we've talked a lot about kind of the scarier side, I guess, today, the doom and gloom of if we sit on the sidelines and you know, not really play an important role in this development developing this technology. So let's talk hope for a second. I'm curious, like, you know, when you hear that doom and gloom, and when you're talking to folks who are feeling jaded or kind of nihilistic about all this, what are some of the most kind of inspiring use cases that you highlight or ways that you see this technology can make a better world when it comes to inclusion, you know, democratic accountability, financial freedom? Like, what gets you excited about really, you know, fighting this fight?

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Yeah, the first one, I'll kick it off and let Eric close it was just that I, the first time that I was really learning about this tech and thinking about, oh, democratized access to like decentralized networks and finance with no barriers to entry. That sounds like a progressive technology, is what it does, like open access. Now, there's coming from the national security community, I know that like obviously thinking about where openness to good guys, if it also means openness to bad guys, then I got to think about how bad guys are gonna use that to exploit uh and reap consequences and harms on the good guys. But there's so much opportunity here for driving that desire for open and inclusive access and for leveraging the positive benefits that you get from things like auditability and traceability to allow for things like asset recovery for consumers. Um, it just demands like building, like an architecture isn't just one technology or system of implementation. It's a whole like comprehensive overlay and a lot of different things that work together to help make something trustworthy. Because like something that makes it really good for asset recovery to get your money back if you've been defrauded is also kind of a consumer privacy nightmare, right? Like like publishing on a public, unobscured ledger. Um, so we so like there, it's a very exciting opportunity for leveraging the benefits that you get with the tech. Um, we just need to leverage other very cool technologies that are coming in to try to complement that and make sure that we've got people defended properly. Um, even when we even when President Biden issued his EO on digital assets, like the Secretary of State highlighted like the goodness that we were seeing in humanitarian relief that crypto was bringing into Ukraine. Like, um, so there are great opportunities there. I think that with AI is actually a really interesting one for me because these two technologies, like crypto and and uh AI, reinfor and reinforce each other's best and worst traits in the most fascinating ways. Um, but on the best trait side, like all the, you know, all the scalability and compliance problems you had with blockchain, what a great use case for AI to bring in and help solve that. Um, and then the auditability and explainability problems that you had with AI black boxes, what a great use case for a technology literally made for data integrity and auditability. Like fantastic use case for blockchain, right? Um, and then even more recently, uh like um on things like agentic commerce, a lot of people that had been ignoring crypto and blockchain completely in my worlds and like cyber worlds and AI worlds, people were like, they were not talking about crypto unless they were complaining about pig butchering and ransomware, which I have plenty of things to say about that too. Yeah. Um, but it was frustrating because I couldn't get these guys that understand things like secure software development and third-party risk management and supply chain and things that are currently hurting the crypto industry and would benefit from these voices coming in. But agentic commerce rising, like for the first time ever, I'm seeing guys like in the internet service provider world and in the AI world going, oh, ACH transfers take three to five days to settle. Hmm. So, what's this thing that you were talking about, Carol? Stablecoins that like allow for instant settlement, cross-border reach? Like, oh, okay. So for agentic commerce, like there's actually a lot more experimentation coming from some of the OG tech like web two guys playing in web three and AI guys playing in web three. So I'm excited about that. Like I think this is uh it's a really fun opportunity for allowing other people with different kinds of understanding coming in and injecting some of their understanding around security and trust, uh, the lessons that we've learned elsewhere in the internet, trying to inject that. So I find that to be hopeful. I know some people probably feel differently about that, but Eric, what are some of your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Oh yeah, I mean, I think that like that that is definitely one. I think that like the convergence of those two things is really like interesting and cool. I mean, like, I think there's like some basic things that are like that I really like that I really like, like around like immigrant communities being able to send money back home without as much of a like a Western Union fee, more uh in a more stable way. Um, I mean, like the like the other is like sort of transaction costs and like you know, everyday small business. Uh, you know, if you're swiping like a stablecoin card, like you're paying a 1% fee rather than like a 4 or 5% fee with like the normal credit processors, which I think are really interesting. And then my pie in the sky thing that I'm also really interested in, and this is something that I see every day in communities of young people on Discord and Reddit, but there's a lot of concern about how Web 2.0 companies use people's personalized data in order to profit, right? And and like whether it be content creators and influencers and people trying to monetize their audiences, whether it be individuals who produce a lot of data online, and the idea of being able to have a secure data, like you know, digital identity that you self-custody your data uh as something in the future. This is a little bit sort of Pollyanish, but like if people were able to control their own digital footprint and get, you know, opt-in to being paid for their data or something like along those lines, is something that this technology allows for and gives people more control. And I would love to see that sort of data privacy layer as something that's really sort of built on as much as possible in order to give people control over their digital lives.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, great, great points all around. Uh there's an exciting future this technology can build if we, you know, play a role in building it. And so, you know, I'd love to kind of end on a more uh provocative question, I guess you could say, you know, this has been a really inspiring conversation. Yeah, yeah. I know it's been a little, you know, there's been some doom and gloom, but it's also, you know, very hopeful as well, in the sense that this is an opportunity right here for anyone to, you know, play a role in shaping this and it's not too late. And I think, you know, a lot of people that are feeling kind of jaded and nihilistic recognize that, you know, most financial and tech systems in the past they tend to get captured by the powerful, no matter how kind of like decentralized or egalitarian they might start. And so, you know, when you're looking at AI, crypto, digital finance, why do you feel that this moment can break that pattern? And what is your call to action for listeners to make it happen?

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Yeah, so I mean, look, I mean, look, if you even look at public polling, there's a lot of public mistrust, right? Um, the like, you know, the only thing less popular than politicians right now is AI and crypto. If you look at like a politico and uh and whatnot. And so I mean, I think that there's a lot of discontent. There's a lot of anger, it's being directed towards like data centers and these other things, right? But out of that, out of that anger, usually, I mean, things fall apart, or you get like sort of like a Teddy Roosevelt style uh breaking of like these big, big institutions and what. And like in the timeline of America, if it happens in cycles, like right now we're sort of in the gilded age, and right after became came the progressive era, right? Like where Teddy Roosevelt broke up the trust and like really did things that were populist and like returned power to the people. And I think that we're at the beginning of that moment right now. You see the discontent around tech uh like bubbling up, but it's not like kill all tech, it's make this work for us, right? And I think that as that movement builds is where there's an opportunity to shape the direction of the future to something that's a little bit more decentralized and egalitarian. And I really think there's gonna be a lot of public pressure that is going to overcome the bajillions of dollars that people are gonna be spending on advertising. Because one of the true one of the like one of the biggest truths, I think, is that like our media system has become more fragment fragmented than ever before, right? And like just spent only 40% of households have cable. So just spending on advertising is not gonna be enough in order to like beat back like a movement of people who want a better tomorrow. And I think that we're actually at the beginning of that sort of like that that surge and like populist sort of sentiment. And whoever is gonna be winning in 28 is gonna be the one that actually speaks about this to the best of their ability on the right and the left, right? Um, so I do think that right now there's gonna be that we're at the beginning of a moment that's gonna shape the future and an ability to sort of pull things back from the centralized players and redistribute things a little bit better. Uh, and I really am hopeful and pretty sure that that's gonna happen. Like, I do think that there's a lot of people in crypto who really do not like the things that this administration is doing because it calls into question the validity of the technology. So I think that there's gonna be a lot of people in the industry that are gonna be part of like what the solution is. Um, and that's what we have that's that's where I feel like we are gonna be able to shape what the future of this technology uh comes from. Uh and it's gonna go like you know, either in the tear it all down or like let's build for all of us. And I really do think that it will go in the direction of let's build for all of us, because that's the American story.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Yeah, I I agree with yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I I think uh this moment is I think that the opportunity still exists. I do think that this opportunity, like the next couple of years, um, the next five years, even the next two to three years, are really critical for shaping the conditions for this, because I think that um things are growing a bit exponenti exponentially. Um so and and then a lot of the missteps of this uh of this administration uh that have frustrated a lot of people. In this sector, I know they haven't been as loud in communicating their frustrations as sometimes I might wish, but I understand like they know how to read the writing on the wall, and they understand that when there have been very evident consequences for when you come out or, you know, dare to self-regulate for arguably the least controversial use case ever, like human out-of-the-loop lethal application of AI, that there end up being um, you know, uh that there end up being consequences that even if in the long run they end up winning in court, like the the opportunity cost and other things are very, very real and present. Um, but in the end, like I do think that a lot of those missteps have driven a much greater amount of frustration that combined with like all the challenges around affordability, feeling around denial of access, viewing a lot of things that they see as corruption and grift right now. Um, I think that this like the public is is calling and crying for not just grievance but governance. So, like looking for accountability and governance and that strategy, there's a great opportunity right now to paint that picture inside of industry and to give that and and to take that approach, including for policymakers going forward. So I think that, yeah, like I think that we have a really great opportunity in a way where right now you have the public sort of unified around frustration with the existing system and around what they're seeing on the technology, um, like in how technologies and the people behind those technologies how they are benefiting from um from uh what they see as a pay-to-play world and system. So I think that that misstep like offers an opportunity to actually make progress on some policy areas that have just been too politically divisive historically to be able to make to get traction on.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Yeah, absolutely. The moment is now to help shape this technology. And I think you've made a good case for that. And you know, what a great note to end on there. Um, you know, although there's a lot of uh challenges ahead, I hope folks leave this conversation feeling inspired and hopeful like I do. Um, and Eric and Carol, thank you so much for the work that you're doing. Thank you for being here, and for those listening and who want to follow along, I will share all the links in the show notes to do so. Eric, Carol, it has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

SPEAKER_01 46:10

Thank you so much. Glad to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

And that was Eric Ballsbaugh and Carol House of Open Frontier. What I'll take away most is that simple but profound idea that technology is not destiny. It's easy to feel like all of this is happening to us, that the future is being decided and rooms will never enter, by people whose priorities may not include us. But that's precisely why this work matters. If value-driven people opt out, if we sit on the sidelines because crypto or AI feels too speculative, too technical, or too tainted, we see the design of the next era to whoever shows up, and the history is pretty clear here about who tends to show up when the rest of us stay home. The stakes are real. A technology built on the promise of decentralization and democratization could, without the right guardrails and the right people at the table, end up concentrating power in the hands of a few. We've seen the pattern before, and there's nothing automatic about avoiding it this time. But I leave this conversation hopeful, and I hope you do too, because the alternative isn't inevitable. Smart regulation, thoughtful guardrails, and a genuine commitment to building technology with people and for people, and for the planet, can bend this towards inclusion, accountability, and financial freedom. We don't have to choose between innovation and protection. The real challenge, as Carol put it, is whether we have the vision to design smart rules and trustworthy technology together. For listeners around the world who care about making sure that these emerging technologies serve everyday people, not just incumbents or speculators, we've included links in the show notes on how to engage with open frontiers work. Wherever you are, your voice in this conversation matters. A huge thank you to Eric and Kill for the work that they're doing and for helping build a world where crypto and AI work for everyone. And that wraps up today's episode of Crypto Ultras. Thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. If you're inspired to explore more stories at the intersection of Web3 and Social Impact, be sure to visit us at CryptoUltras.com for articles, resources, and more. And if you love what you heard, it would mean the world if you could rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast. This one small act goes a long way in really helping us grow the show and keeping the platform going strong. So thanks again for joining us, and I look forward to having you back for the next episode. Until then, let's keep showing the world the good of crypto.