Episode 262 - Co-ops and DAOs: What Web3 Can Learn from a Century of Cooperation & Decentralization, with D.G. Safeer Hopton

For episode 262 of the Crypto Altruists podcast, we're excited to welcome D.G. Safeer Hopton, a lifelong cooperative innovator, author, and founder of the Global Village Co-op. With more than 50 years in the cooperative movement, going all the way back to 1970, D.G. brings a rare depth of experience in community-owned, democratically governed systems.

In crypto, we sometimes talk about decentralization like we invented it. We celebrate DAOs, decentralized autonomous organizations, as a radical new idea: communities that pool resources, share ownership, and make decisions democratically, without a central authority calling the shots. And it is genuinely exciting. But that model isn't new. Not even close.

Cooperatives have been proving that decentralization works for decades, even centuries. At its simplest, a co-op is an organization owned and democratically controlled by the people who use it, whether that's workers, customers, or an entire community. The value created stays with the people who created it. And while the modern movement is often traced to a group of weavers in Rochdale, England, in 1844, its roots run far deeper, with profound origins in African and Indigenous economics that D.G. explores in his book, Creating a Co-op Village.

So today, we're bridging these two worlds. We explore what cooperatives really are, their deep history, and the striking parallels between co-ops and DAOs. Because if these digital communities are, in many ways, reinventing the co-op with a digital wrapper, then we have an enormous amount to learn from someone who's been doing this the whole time.

In today's discussion you'll learn:

🌍 What cooperatives are, their deep history, and how they've been proving decentralization works long before Web3 existed

🤝 How keeping prosperity circulating locally can build community wealth and close the gaps traditional systems leave behind

⛓️ The striking parallels between co-ops and DAOs, and the hard-won lessons decades of cooperative experience offer today's digital communities

💡 Practical wisdom for anyone looking to start a co-op, strengthen a DAO, or build a more inclusive community from the ground up

‍--Key Takeaways--

🌍 Web3 has a lot to learn from the past, because co-ops have been here all along: In crypto, we love to talk about decentralization like it's a brand new invention. But cooperatives have been practicing shared ownership and democratic governance for decades, even centuries, with roots reaching deep into African and Indigenous economics. The governance challenges DAOs are wrestling with today, like how to make decisions fairly, how to keep members engaged, or how to stop power from concentrating in a few hands, are the same challenges the cooperative movement has been solving all along. We didn't invent decentralization. We inherited it. And the more we honor and learn from that lineage, the stronger the communities we build will be.

🤝 Whatever the structure, it's all about keeping prosperity circulating locally: Whether you call it a co-op, a DAO, or something else entirely, the underlying goal is the same: keep the value that a community creates within that community, rather than letting it flow out to distant owners and extractive middlemen. So much of our spending leaves our communities the moment we make a transaction. Cooperative economics flips that, keeping prosperity circulating locally and building real, shared wealth. And critically, this is about inclusion, creating systems that everyone can participate in and benefit from, especially the communities that traditional wealth-building has left behind.

⛓️ DAOs create new opportunities to build on what co-ops started: This isn't just about Web3 learning from co-ops. The exchange runs in both directions. Cooperatives have long faced real challenges around raising capital, scaling up, and keeping members active and engaged over time. The new mechanisms emerging in Web3, from transparent onchain governance to programmable incentives to new ways of pooling and moving resources, could help solve some of these longstanding problems. When you combine the hard-won wisdom of the cooperative movement with the fresh tools of decentralized technology, you get something genuinely exciting: a chance to build more resilient, inclusive, community-owned systems than either could create alone.

--CTAs from the Episode--

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--Full shownotes with links--
www.cryptoaltruists.com/blog/crypto-altruists-episode-262-co-ops-and-daos-what-web3-can-learn-from-a-century-of-cooperation-decentralization-with-dg-safeer-hopton

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--DISCLAIMER--
While we may discuss specific web3 projects or cryptocurrencies on this podcast, do not take any of this as investment advice and make sure to do your own research on potential investment opportunities, or any opportunity, before making an investment. We host a variety of guests on this podcast with the sole purpose of highlighting the social impact use cases of this technology. That being said, Crypto Altruism does not endorse any of these projects, and we recognize that, since this is an emerging sector, some may be operating in regulatory grey areas, and as such, we cannot confirm their legality in the jurisdictions in which they operate, especially as it pertains to decentralized finance protocols. So, before getting involved with any project, it’s important that you do your own research and confirm the legality of the project. More info at cryptoaltruists.com/disclaimer

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Today you'll discover what a cooperative is, their deep history, and how they've been proving decentralization works for far longer than Web3 has existed, how co-ops help keep prosperity circulating locally, which can build community wealth and close the gaps that traditional systems leave behind, the striking parallels between co-ops and DAOs, and the hard-won lessons decades of cooperative experience can offer today's digital communities, and practical wisdom for anyone looking to start a co-op, strengthen a DAO, or build a more inclusive community from the ground up. Welcome to Crypto Altrists, where we explore the intersections of Web3 and Social Good to the stories of impact-driven builders and offer actionable insights to empower your journey into the world of blockchain for good. I'm your host, Drew Simon. Now before we dive in, please remember that this is not financial or legal advice, and always do your own research on any of the projects or investment opportunities that we discussed. Welcome back to the Crypto Altrists Podcast. Thanks so much for joining us today for a discussion on co-ops, a topic that I really started diving into way back in university and something that I've always been deeply intrigued and inspired by. And I'm really excited about this one because we're going to explore a connection that I think doesn't get talked about nearly enough. And to do it, I'm joined by someone with a truly remarkable depth of experience. My guest today is DJ Safir Hopton, a lifelong cooperative innovator and the founder of the Global Village Co-op. He's the author of a book called Creating a Co-op Village, and his work spans cooperative housing, community development, financial innovation, and shared ownership models all designed to keep prosperity circulating locally. He's been in this for more than 50 years, going all the way back to 1970. So when it comes to building community-owned, democratically governed systems, there are few people on the planet with more ground level experience. But before we get into the conversation, I want to set the stage because co-ops have an incredible history behind them, and I want to take a moment to acknowledge that. Because in crypto, we sometimes have a tendency, myself included, to talk about decentralization like it's a brand new concept, that we invented it. We celebrate DAOs, decentralized autonomous organizations, as this radical new idea. Communities that pool resources, share ownership, and make decisions democratically without a boss or a central authority calling all the shots. But here's the thing that model isn't new, not even close. Because cooperatives have been proving that decentralization works for decades, even centuries. So let me back up and give a quick primer on co-ops for anyone who might not know as much about them or know their history. At its simplest, a cooperative is an organization that's owned and democratically controlled by the people who use it. Not by outside shareholders looking to extract profit, but the members themselves. The workers, the customers, the residents, the community, everyone has a stake, and typically everyone gets a say, often on a one-member, one-vote basis. The value that gets created stays with the people who created it rather than flowing out to distant owners. And this idea is quite old. The modern cooperative movement is often traced back to a group of weavers in Rochedale, England in 1844, who pooled their resources to open a store that they collectively owned. This led to the creation of the Rochdale Principles, which define the key elements of co-ops, including voluntary and open membership, democratic control, autonomy and independence, and more. These principles are updated regularly by the International Cooperative Alliance, and although the modern co-op movement can be traced back to this time, the roots actually go far deeper than that and far wider. As DG talks about in his book, and as we'll discuss in this episode, cooperative economics has profound roots in African and Indigenous communities, who practice shared ownership, mutual aid, and collective resource management for centuries before it ever had a formal name. And co-ops are not some historical footnote. They're all around us today. Credit unions are cooperatives, many of the farms behind the food you eat are part of agricultural co-ops, outdoor retailer REI is a co-op, some of the biggest, most resilient businesses in the world are member-owned. And in fact, hundreds of millions of people globally are co-op members right now. So when you put it all together, you start to see it. The principles we're so excited about in Web3, shared ownership, democratic governance, keeping value in the community, aligning incentives among members, none of these are new inventions. They're a centuries-old tradition that cooperatives have been refining and proving the entire time. And this is exactly why this conversation matters so much today. Because if these digital communities we're building are in many ways reinventing the co-op with a digital wrapper, then we have an enormous amount to learn from the people who've been doing this the whole time. Whether it's the governance challenges, the engagement problems, the risk of power concentrating in a few hands, co-ops have been wrestling with all of it for generations. And few people understand that better than DG Sephir. So let's dive in. DG, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today on the Crypto Ultras Podcast. I have uh going back to my days in college when I was kind of researching models of you know collective uh ownership and cooperation, I was always amazed by co-ops. And you know, here in Canada we have one called Mountain Equipment Co-op, although it recently went private, I think. It was kind of like REI, I believe. And you know, I've always been a fan of those types of models. I use a credit union. So co-ops have always been something that's you know, I really am passionate about. And I believe there's such a great overlap with, you know, DAOs and decentralization and crypto and co-ops, and there's so many lessons we can learn. So I really appreciate you taking the time to be here, and I'm really excited for this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Well, Grey, I'm happy to be here, man. Um I'm glad I found a uh a kindred spirit up in uh in Toronto.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

I actually have some business partners in Toronto uh working with co-ops. Uh, I'll tell you about them later.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, we'll definitely dive into that. Um, that sounds great.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Um and you know, you have you have you heard about the Rideshare co-op uh called uh uh Fair Co-op?

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Actually, haven't no.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

F-A-R-E. They uh they initially had organized to keep uh Walmart out of Toronto.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Yeah, and then they organized a buyers club to help merchants, you know, get lower prices on uh wholesale prices and stuff like that, so it would help the consumer. So yeah, uh, they're on their way here, they're on the road right now, heading uh my way, actually.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

That's really cool. That's awesome. Small wear all day. Uh really, really cool.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Toronto.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Yeah. And co-ops are really all over the world, and you have some incredible experience. I mean, uh, more than 50 years in the cooperative movement, going all the way back to early co-op uh village work in 1970. Uh, really cool the experience you bring here. I don't think I've ever talked to someone that has quite the experience around co-ops that you do. And so to start, I'd love to kind of hear like what first you drew you into cooperation as a way of organizing communities and what kept you committed to it for five decades? Like, what's the passion around co-ops that keeps you going?

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Well, I kind of stumbled into it. I mean, I know literally, I would there was a co-op development going up in Pasadena, California called Co-op Village, uh, coincidentally, which is the name of my book, Creating a Co-op Village. So I know a little bit about that. Um, anyway, so I didn't like the way the design of the co-ops were at the time. I was a uh uh columnist for a local newspaper and investigative reporter, and so I was did a three-part series on the uh uh co-op village that was going up, and I was criticizing it. And so I was didn't like the design and the way it was set up. It looked like outhouses to me. And so I just told the, I just uh arranged an interview with the director of the project, and I was interviewing him about the project, told him my concerns, and the next thing you know, he's offering me a job.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Yeah, wow, that's uh that's that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

As a yeah, as assistant project director in charge of consumer education and public relations. And so I was like, wow, okay, you're trying to buy me out, huh? Okay, I got it. You're trying to silence me. All right, okay. So let me think about it. I I I have my my um people that read my column every week, they're gonna think I sold out. And so uh, let me sleep on it, I'll call you back. So I called them back the next day and said, Yeah, I I came to the conclusion I can do more good on the inside than I can throw in rocks at you guys on the outside. So, yeah, let me let me you know give this a uh a shot. And that's how I got I got dragged into co-ops. Yeah, I knew nothing about co-ops prior to prior to that.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

That's so cool. It's yeah, and it's led to an amazing career, obviously. And you know, you mentioned your book, uh, creating a co-op village. Um, I definitely need to get myself a copy. I uh there's so much great lessons, it sounds like from it. And you discuss in this the history of co-ops globally, uh including their deep roots in African and indigenous economics. And one thing that I find really interesting is, you know, when it comes to things like DAOs and decentralized communities, I think sometimes folks in like crypto are like, oh, we created decentralization. It's new, you know, crypto enables this thing that couldn't exist before, but in reality, it's been existing for centuries in many communities, and they've been using, you know, collective and cooperative models all over the world. And so I'd love to kind of hear about this. Can you tell me more about this and how cooperative models have been used by these communities for century and kind of how that informs you know the work of your book?

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah, you're you're smarter than the average guy. A lot of the people in the uh DAO, uh the decentralized community, they don't really know the history. You know, they think, oh yeah, we created this. No, mm-mm. It's been around a long time. Like you said, uh pre-colonial Africa, uh everything in co-ops is based on, you know, communal living in the village, you know, where we share everything. Let's say if you're on an island by yourself and or you have an island and you know, uh you've got a hundred people on the island and you've got to figure out what to do, how to survive, you know. So that's that's what a co-op is, really, is just working together, cooperating, and serving each other. And so, yeah, it evolved from Africa and then got into Europe, and then they created the what they call now the the Rochdale principle of co-op. Uh, yeah, so it's it's been around for a long, long time. It's just more formalized now. And of course, some um there's different different forms, it can be in different forms, but there's a lot of people who have been using the co-op model and and saying they're a co-op when they're not legitimately, you know, a co-op. You know, one member, one boat, it's got to be one member, one boat, democratically controlled, neutral, and race, religion, and politics. So um neutrality is a beautiful thing because when you bring race, religion, and politics and gender into the conversation, there's gonna be conflict, there's gonna be problems, you know. It's like if you're a member of a credit union, you know they don't they don't care what gender you are, what your religion or or your politics is. They just want to know, do you have enough money to open this account? You know, and and so you're a member of the credit union. That's that's about it. And so it's not political and it doesn't get into all that stuff, which can be very destructive. So um I I think there's an opportunity um within the crypto community uh for for true cooperative uh organization. Um the challenge I have with the crypto community uh is the fact that you know the um crypto coins and dollars and stuff uh really doesn't have anything, nothing backing it up. It's just fiat c fiat currency like like the dollar. You know, I'd say off the gold, off the gold. I wrote a poem once called Off the Gold. It's called What Dollar? Off the gold standard, on the nothing standard. And so that's what we've been on. We've been on the nothing standard uh ever since uh, you know, we went off off the gold standard. So you gotta have more than that. So what we did was we understood that the um the ecosystem is the most important system the most important thing is creating an ecosystem. And so, what better way to do that is is through merchants and consumers buying and selling from each other. So we created a digital uh, we're in the process right now of creating a digital wallet. We're raising the funds necessary to do a uh what we call a prosperity cash rewards digital wallet, so we can create a commerce-based ecosystem where the merchants and consumers are under one co-op umbrella buying and selling from each other. You know, so in in the co-op industry, we call that a uh multi-stakeholder co-op. And so that's the direction we're moving with a co-op that I created called Global Village Co-op. And so with this, uh it's it's sort of like similar to Apple Pay or Samsung Pay, uh, but the difference is you can it's owned by the members, of course. That's a big difference. You know, it's not owned by some big multinational corporation that's coming in and extracting uh money from the community. So it's owned by the members of the co-op and it pays cash rewards up to 20% with participating merchant partners. So that's what we decide to do as a way. So when you have that kind of commerce going on, then if you want to create a uh prosperity coin or prosperity dollars, you've got the whole ecosystem, you know, this eco-commerce system with the merchants uh and the consumers buying and selling from each other, then you've got something of tangible that's backing. You've got commerce that's actually backing the currency. And that's the key piece that we have incorporated into what we're doing so that uh it's legitimate.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Yeah. And that's so cool. And you touched on a lot of different concepts there that are really fascinating. Neutrality is something we talk a lot about in this uh Web3 crypto space, um, for sure. You know, what you mentioned around this kind of ecosystem. I've been learning about the concept of like commitment pooling is another thing that I've you know found very interesting of how you know communities can cooperate together. What was that?

SPEAKER_00 13:30

What was that? I missed that. Uh commitment pooling? Uh-huh. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Yeah, yeah. Like a process of uh individuals being able to like essentially commit a certain value of something uh to a like a community that they can then trade with others and kind of barter and and keep value circulating within local communities.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

I understand. We we we we have a program set up like that with uh Global Village. It's just auto ship auto ship. You just you know uh choose to buy certain products every month, you know, you get certain basic stuff that you need every month. And so you just you know have that auto ship directly to your house or however you want to set it up through a local merchant or uh whoever uh merchant member that offers uh this type of thing. And so that's very important to keep the money circulating. And then we also have a program called Fundraising Made Easy, where you can earmark a percentage of your of your cash rewards in the co-op industry. We call it patronage uh refunds. Patronage refund is is what they they now call cash rewards, you know. And but co-ops were the first to to come up with that whole idea of patronage refunds, and now uh they they call it cash rewards, like I said. But that that's a co-op idea, and so that the co-op is required at the end of the year, uh uh based on any net revenues, to give those net revenues back to the members in direct proportion to their patronage. So, you know, Drew, if I could if I could find a a more equitable system than the co-op model, I'd be doing it. But I don't see anything more equitable than that. You know, um, you know, it has a sense of community and a sense of doing. We gotta have that community aspect, you gotta have the connection to the nonprofits and worthy causes, you know, so that percentage of the rewards that come in, we earmark in a community fund so that uh nonprofits and worthy causes can come and and apply for grants and and things like that. So you gotta recycle the money back because if you recycle the money, you don't need money. And then we're all chasing our tails and chasing money because we're not recycling it, we're not being responsible uh with with the money. We're just extracting and running. You know, we're not staying around, we're not building anything. You know, we're just taking it and running someplace else. And so we've got to get back to basics, and that's back why I call it creating a co-op village in my book, because it starts with the village. You can operate and uh cooperate and serve each other within the village, then you have a good opportunity to expand it to the city and then to the state and then to the whole country. There's so many opportunities that things could have been and still can be co-ops. I mean that the Affordable Cure Act, they thought about being a co-op. Now, if that if that was a co-op, it'd be a perfect situation because it had full transparency. You wouldn't have to wonder why the uh rates are so high, you would be able to find out, you know, actually find out why the premiums are so high. But with the way it's set up now, you're really at the mercy of the of the drug companies and the uh you know big corporations who control these kinds of things. Same thing with the post office. The post office could be a co-op, you know. So there's so many things that could be a co-op that would make more sense than uh what we are experiencing right now. So we've got the competition conflict paradigm going on when it should be the cooperation paradigm. So we're helping cooperation and service, we're helping people shift from this competition conflict extraction mentality to cooperation and service uh mentality because that leads to prosperity and peace. Whereas competition conflict leads to war, which we are into quite a few lately.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, um, very interesting. And I think that you know a lot of this leads into as you're talking about kind of things that could be co-ops and the opportunities that come with that is that um, you know, you've said in some of your works that cooperation isn't just an ideal, but it is a business strategy. And kind of going into this idea of competition versus you know cooperation, a lot of people assume co-ops are more of a kind of like almost like a nonprofit, like feel-good kind of like project, when in reality they're really powerful economic infrastructure. And, you know, I'm curious now, like what does the track record show and why is cooperation a smart economic model for communities? Not just one that's you know more fair, but one that's actually smart from an economic perspective.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Well, I mean, look at the history of credit unions, look at the success of credit unions in this country. Uh look at the success of Sunkiss, Lando Lakes, True Value Hardware Store, or Carpet One, the number one carpet retailer in the country is a co-op. So, you know, co-ops are very quiet about what they do. They don't, you know, go around and stick their chest out a lot, uh, but they're doing things quietly, you know. And uh I, you know, the reason why banks had to uh uh attempted to stop credit unions from going across state lines is because of the competition that they represent to the credit to the uh to the banking industry because they provide you know better uh services and better products. And so the banking community, you know, has issues with with uh credit unions uh because of that. And so it's a great, it's a great model. It's not a non-I mean, I know people have a perception of co-ops being you know warm and fuzzy and all that, and and you know, and we are. Co-ops are very warm and fuzzy, but at the same time, it it is running a business. And so, you know, you can the key person in a co-op is the general manager. The general manager is someone who knows how to run a business, okay? Ideally, that's what you're looking for. If you don't have a general manager, then you have what we've done. We created a uh management, we have a management company that manages the affairs of the co-op. Uh, you know, a management company that understands co-op philosophy, but at the same time knows how to run a business. So, yeah, you do have uh, you know, a lot of warm and fuzzy people and people who maybe don't know anything about business that are members of co-ops. Uh, I used to be a member of the General Strength Co-op in in Tempe, Arizona. And so, you know, you have to uh pick people who have a belief in the co-op uh ideals and principles, but at the same time have good business sense at the same time. And they can actually run a business, whether it was a co-op business or not, or not a co-op business, but just good business sense is what you need uh in in a co-op or any business. But any business can be a co-op, can be converted into a co-op. It depends on on you know your motives and what you want to accomplish. You know, so that's that's how I see it.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

Yeah, that's I mean, great, great uh insights there. And yeah, no, that's that's very interesting. And you know, um, one thing that uh is really interesting at my in the work that I do is this concept of, and you brought up decentralized autonomous organizations, you know, crypto. Um I do a lot of research into crypto impact initiatives, not so much crypto coins or anything, or you know, things like that, or meme coins or those, you know, personality coins or anything like that, but really looking at how can we use blockchain infrastructure, you know, to coordinate and to help you know people use these tools to coordinate and and to build wealth together and to collectively make decisions. And you know, I think a lot of these communities are in a lot of ways also sometimes trying to reinvent the wheel. And we talked previously about how much there is to learn from indigenous communities from pre-colonial Africa when it comes to cooperative models. Um, I think a lot of the challenges that we see in like in DAOs and more like digital-based kind of cooperative models is that uh they're really running into a lot of the challenges that co-ops have you know solved and addressed over many, many decades. And that includes how to govern fairly, how to keep members engaged, how to avoid power concentrating in a few hands. Um, so I'm curious like for those that are exploring kind of this new frontier that are kind of trying to learn from co-ops, you know, what hard one lessons do you have that you know these communities need to hear about how to really organize a cooperative movement?

SPEAKER_01 21:32

You gotta keep your alter ego in check, man. You know, you know, it's the same stuff that happens with a lot of organizations. They get too big and too successful and they forget their roots, you know. They they forget what got them there. You know, so I had to work on my alter ego to create a company called Global Village that I'm equal with everybody else in the co op. So Who does that? Who creates a company to give it away? So it takes a lot of spiritual work that a lot of people are not willing to do in order to get to that place where you understand that it's better to give than to receive, because through the act of giving, you automatically receive. And so a lot of people don't understand that. And so that's the that's the challenge. That's the biggest challenge, is because, you know, you know, Sunkissed and a lot of these big co-ops, uh, a lot of them have forgotten, and I'm not naming any names per se in terms of who's forgotten, who hasn't. But, you know, get back to basics, you know, understand that, you know, Sunkist came together because they wanted to be able to compete and stay alive with the larger uh corporations, the larger growers out there, and the small farmers had to come together uh collectively to form the Sunkiss co-op in order for them to be able to compete on the level that they could be successful. So I think the big thing is that we we're doing right now, we we've created a fintech uh model. The part of what we're doing with the digital wallet is a fintech model, and we will be using uh a blockchain technology with that. And so we're incorporating a lot of the ideas with the uh you know digital stuff uh to make it easy and to protect the co-op uh from people you know sticking their hands in the cookie jar, you know. So, you know, so even if I wanted to with the system that we're setting up, I I couldn't stick my hand in a cookie jar. And I think that's the big thing we have to be careful of. And I think blockchain and uh you know forms of crypto, we've we've experimented with the idea or talked about the idea of uh allowing uh our members of the Global Village Co-op to uh receive, to have a choice if they want to receive their cash rewards in uh USD or in uh Bitcoin or crypto of some kind. You know, so that's a discussion that we've been having among ourselves. We want to be able to provide those kinds of options for for members who are like you, who are inclined to crypto or you know, uh other alternative currencies. They they should be able to convert their cash rewards into whatever uh currency that uh that makes them feel uh good, you know. So we've got to have that that flexibility uh built into what we're doing. We want people to be able to have uh uh choice because uh that's what's coming down the pike. You've got to be ready for the time when the time comes. And we see the handwriting on the wall. It's just a matter of working out the bugs, you know, uh in the decentralization game. You know, co-co-ops have always be been decentralized, and you know, you're right, you know, they're you know, you don't need to reinvent the wheel, you know, embrace what's already there and build on that. That's what I don't understand with the crypto and and the digital you know decentralization stuff that's going on. You know, are they just not aware of uh co-ops being in existence all hundreds of years, thousands of years? So why reinvent the wheel uh unnecessarily when you can just build on what's there, you know? And so if you if you have a real legitimate co-op and you've got that commerce going on, then you you have something back in the crypto, you have something back in the Bitcoin, you know, it's it's commerce, it's us buying and selling from each other. You know, everything in the world is bought and sold. So why not buy from ourselves and sell to ourselves? And what Buckmaster Fuller used to call a closed systems approach to living. So if everything is in a closed loop, you the money never leaves. If you recycle glass, you don't need glass. If you recycle plastic, you don't need plastic. If you recycle money, do you need money? No, you don't need money, it's just it's there. It's it's a self-perpetuating prosperity machine, I call it. You know, if money is being just constantly recycled back to the community, then you don't have to beg the government for money. You know, you don't have to, you know, you know, have a tin cup out, you know, begging people for money. We have so much abundance around us, but we just, you know, we keep giving our way, uh giving our money away to people who don't give any of it back. So if you keep giving your money away to people who don't give any of it any of it back, well, you're gonna be broke. You know, that's not that's not rocket science, Drew. That's just that's just common sense, and we've lost our common sense, unfortunately. Uh common sense is not very common. And so the young folks who are going into crypto and and Bitcoin and all this stuff, they're just doing their best to find their common sense because the uh establishment has lost its common sense. And uh, you know, rather than building on what's already there in the co-op industry that's been there forever, you're trying to create something completely uh different that's not different, you know. So let's you know bring the co-op together and the digital uh you know together together uh in blockchain or whatever you want to do. So let's bring it into the co-op industry.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Yeah, absolutely. And I've always been an advocate for that you shouldn't reinvent the wheel, you should look at what's already working and then use these new innovations to say, how can I apply it to you know, strengthen certain aspects or you know, to um build something new on top of that. And I think you're 100% right. There's no point in creating all these things from scratch, right? Um, and I'm curious, like when it comes to blockchain, you had mentioned that you know, with your new uh wallet that's coming out, your digital wallet, blockchain will be a part of that. What role do you see blockchain playing?

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Well, it's not uh we have it, we we envision that it will be a part of that. We we are talking to our developer to incorporate that into the system so that the cash rewards are paid through blockchain, you know, so the the money just keeps keeps coming, you know, so there's no human hands touching it to mess it up, you know, and so that that's very important. So, you know, uh rephrase your question for me one more time.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Yeah, no, I just say, and I think you kind of answered it there as saying, like, what is the unlock you know that blockchain brings? Because you're obviously exploring, you know, blockchain as part of that digital wallet, like you mentioned, kind of looking into it. Yeah. And you talked about, you know, the ability to have that money kind of flowing out uh you know automatically, those sorts of things. Are there any other kind of unlocks that you see blockchain really bringing to the table for uh cooperative movements?

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Well, I think I think affiliate uh marketing is is a piece that can be incorporated into uh blockchain very nicely. You know, um it can be a two-tier system or you know, keep it simple. Uh, but you know, you've got to have marketing. It's gotta be um uh marketing built into uh the co-op. And so we have ambassadors, uh we call them independent consultants. They're ambassadors that go out and market the products and services of the co of the Global Village Co-op. So you've got to have people out there signing up merchants, we've got to have relationships develop. Uh we're working on developing relationships with uh bi-local campaigns. We've been endorsed by the largest bi-local campaign in the c in the country here in Arizona. Uh so we're bringing in uh other bi-local campaigns, Chamber of Commerces, uh merchant associations, uh, merchant service companies that provide the POS machines. We've got to co-op everybody, Drew. You know, so we've got we've got to force people into cooperation, you know, by dangling a few carrots in front of them, you know. Whatever we have to do to make us who should be cooperating to learn how to cooperate because we've forgotten how. So the only time we seem to be able to cooperate is when there's a fire or some kind of natural disaster happens, and then all of a sudden, you know, you you meet your neighbor that you haven't seen in 10 years, and they live right next door to you. So, so, you know, we we had a lot of work to do, Drew. We've gotten so far away with these, you know, walking around with cell phones in our hands all the time. We've got so far away from human connection that that's our biggest challenge is, you know, the the robots will take over before we figure out how to have how to be human again, you know. And the robots will be teaching us how to be human. They'll be asking us how to be human. And uh, you know, that that's a crazy situation when the when the robot asks you how to be human and you don't even know how to be human yourself. You know, matter of fact, if we were being human, we wouldn't need the robots. You know, everything would take care of itself. We'd be cooperating and service and serving each other to the extent that we'd be all would be happy. Money wouldn't be a challenge, you know, there would be no wars, you know, it would only be prosperity. So that's what I'm working uh on, uh Drew. You know, I'm working on that uh vision. You know, that's we have the capability to do that. And I think when we begin to look at all these mergers and acquisitions going on within the major Fortune 500 corporations, we better understand real fast that if they're coming together to cooperate and serve each themselves, we better come together and cooperate and serve ourselves as consumers and create a consumer force, uh uh buying force to leverage what we need to leverage to get what we need to get. So if they're coming together, that's a sign for us to come together. Because if we're not careful, we're gonna find ourselves in a situation where we're buying everything from five corporations.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

That's it. It feels like it already, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Yeah, it's it's already feeling that way now. You know, so imagine in 10, 20 years, you know, you know, everything you buy would be from uh it reminds me of that movie uh uh Charlton Heston called Soil and Green, where where where they were um scooping people up in the streets and they were making food with the people. And they called they called it soil and green and had all the vitamins and nutrients you needed, right? And so it was and so they they people didn't know that. They didn't know that they were eating themselves, that they were being cannibalized, you know, because they had gotten so far away from the from the process and didn't know who was controlling what or what was in what, you know. They I think the the lady went to a store and uh bought a four-ounce jar of cherries, and it was like, I don't know, $200 or something. Ridiculous. I mean, so that's where we're heading, you know. If we don't put the brakes on the situation right now using co-ops and the uh the digital uh formulas that we have available to us now, then uh we're gonna find ourselves in in soil and green or or something worse.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Yeah, no, I mean it's yeah, it's a very like interesting real call to action because then I think that like I almost viewed it as like we've almost lost that humanity in a sense because to me, like cooperation and like community is like humanity, right? And it's just like such a powerful thing, and we've kind of lost track of that. And we'll be right back after this brief announcement. Trying to keep up with everything happening in the world of Web3 for good? Let us make it easy. The Crypto Ultras newsletter is a free monthly roundup delivering the top highlights from our platform, along with the most important news, developments, and opportunities across the ecosystem. Whether you're a builder, a changemaker, or just crypto curious, it's the perfect way to stay in the loop without the noise, all in one place once a month. So to subscribe, just click the link in the show notes. And now back to the episode. You know, one thing I'd like to touch on before we uh near the end of the conversation is you mentioned really earlier on about how co-ops don't you know discriminate and there's that kind of like that credible neutrality to it. Um and for community like you framed cooperation as a way that to close that wealth gap and to build a fairer economy. And so for communities that have been shut out of traditional wealth building in the past or they've been kind of underserved or marginalized in that sense, what does economic justice through shared ownership make possible?

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Oh man, that's that's where the action is. You know, I mean, it's a powerful co-ops are a powerful tool for tool for disadvantaged people or people who have been left out, uh, people of color or whatever kind of discrimination or racism that's going on. Uh the co-op is the best thing for them to create, you know, because you've got not just an economic system, but you've got a social and cultural system that comes out of the co-op. You know, when uh in the heyday, I worked as a consultant with the Berkeley co-ops in Berkeley, California. And uh, you know, you had a very multi-ethnic, multi-uh-cultural uh situation going on there with the Berkeley co-ops. It was the largest co-op in the country at the time. This was back in the 70s. And so, you know, what happens is that the the big guys they get threatened by the small co-ops, and then they like like they did in um in Tempe, Arizona, they put a uh a Whole Foods right next door to General Strength Co-op, you know, with the intention of putting them out of business. I mean, that was the intent. It was clear, it was clear as a bell. You know, why would you do something like that? You have a community co-op that people are happy with, and then you put this Whole Foods right next to it. You know, that's not right. You know, let, you know, and that's what what people have to understand is that there can be all kinds of games being played. The big corporations are gonna, you know, uh disenfranchise you as best they can and keep you away from starting a co-op because they know that that's where the power is. They know that once you can take care of yourself, you have no more need for their uh services or their products anymore. That you can, like we did in uh Toronto, they formed a buyer's co-op so that the um the merchants could uh get pro uh get their wholesale prices uh in in par uh with the rest of the big guys, you know, so that they could uh uh get their products cheaper, which in turn they can sell the products for less money to the consumer. But if you've got a as a if you're just a small mom and pops and you have to buy products from the wholesaler, you're gonna pay more money because you can't buy in the volume that is necessary to get the lower price. And so that's why it's critical that we come together at the wholesale level, at the manufacturing level, uh worker co-ops, you know, consumer co-ops, producer co-ops, we've got to be able to do the whole the whole chain, you know, from the big from the beginning all the way to the consumer. And that's the beauty of co-ops. We have the ability to do that with the multi-stakeholder co-ops, where you know it's a it's a whole ecosystem. We're all buying and selling from each other within this ecosystem. So if the money never leaves the ecosystem, then we're never financially challenged. But only when you allow the money to leave the ecosystem that you've created, which is based on cooperation and service, that you find yourself in a in a challenge, you know. So we just have to stay steadfast no matter what kind of uh lures or tricks or games that the big guys play with us, we have to remember that the power is within the co-op and stick with the co-op.

SPEAKER_02 37:36

Yeah, definitely. I mean, there's power numbers, right? And yeah, that's the importance of coming together and you know building that power together, yeah, and and and you know, using that to make a better and fairer world, right? So that's that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

You're smarter than the average guy, Drew.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Yeah, I would I don't know, I don't know, I wouldn't know about that, but I appreciate you saying that.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

And you know, like Yeah, we're counting on your we're counting on your generation, man. You guys gotta wake up, yeah, put the phone down for a little while, you know, wake up, sell the roses and see, don't complain about the problem when you have the solution in your hands. But you've got to be able to talk to the people around you. You've got to be able to come together under a co-op umbrella and and and change things for the better, you know, uh, and combine co-op with with uh digital uh uh decentralization and all that. You know, merge it together, work it together like we're doing. We're finding ways to do that. We have young people on our team who understand and see that, you know, and so that's the key. You know, the solutions are here. We just need to step up and use those solutions that are at our disposal and not have to reinvent the wheel. Like I say, you know, like we've been talking about, you know, the models are already here. You know, we just need to tap into the models and find a find a way to improve those models and make them more um contemporary and up to par with where we are right now.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Yeah, absolutely. Great points all around. And I couldn't agree more. And I feel like we really align there. I feel like, you know, in in Web3 crypto DAOs, like it should be about looking at what already works and trying to build upon that. And so I think you're spot on there. And I think a lot of folks listening are probably very much resonating with what you're saying. Uh, maybe they're interested in exploring co-ops a bit more, learning about cooperative principles and how they can apply them to their community. Where would be the best place to go to learn more about you, your book, and uh co-ops?

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Well, go to Amazon and buy creating a co-op village, because in the back of the book, I have resources. Okay. And we have uh a think tank group of my my peers. Uh we have conversations with the think tank in here about how we actually develop what is now called Global Village Co-op. So all that real life stuff is in here, uh, history of the co-ops, uh, different um aspects and different co-ops that you can create, and so on. So all the resources you need are right here. You can also go to um our global village uh co-op website, which is global village.co-op or global village.co p. And then uh from there um you can contact me uh through the information on the website, and then I'm happy available as a a co-op consultant. Anybody wants to find out or figure out how to to bring the uh decentralization stuff into the co-op uh arena and uh how to create a a decentralized you know uh uh digital co-op, uh, you know, we can we can work on that. We can talk about that, and I can show you the best ways to go about doing that.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Yeah, that's awesome. Well, yeah, that's great. And I'll include all those links in the show notes for those listening along, head there so you can access those awesome resources and learn more about our guests today, the book, um, lots of great stuff out there. So check to the show notes to access those. And you know, as we near the end of this conversation, I like to kind of end on a note of inspiration or call to action, if you will. And you know, you've carried these ideas of cooperation for half a century, which is incredible, and now a whole new generation is discovering them. And you know, this is what you talked about, the new generation needing to come in here. So if you could pass on one piece of wisdom to new leaders building decentralized communities today, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Um it would be, you know, get over yourself, you know. You know, uh there's a chapter in my book called The Wisdom's Wisdom of the Ancestors. Okay. Uh honor your ancestors. There's wisdom there. You can uh retool it uh based on what we're dealing with now, but the basic common sense knowledge is there. And so unless we you know stand on the shoulders, we all sang on the shoulders of the ancestors, we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the ancestors, you know. And uh it is also a chapter in my book called Study an Ant and Become The Wisdom of Ants, too. Study an ant and become wise. You know, look at the ants. Ants cooperate and serve each other, right? They're organized, they don't complain, they carry a hundred times their own weight and not complain about it. If you mess up if you mess up an anthill, how long is it going to be messed up before they regroup and get back to business again? So that's what we have to do. Study an ant and become wise. We need to act like the ants. We're supposed to be smarter than the ants, but actually they're smarter than us in many ways. So that would be my advice. You know, honor the ancestors, check out what's around you already that's going on, and see how you can incorporate the new technologies into that. Okay, and uh, you know, be steadfast and uh don't be in a hurry. Because I if you you know, I I always tell people if you if you uh taught kids in school about reincarnation, they wouldn't be in a hurry. You know, taking their time because they knew they had many lifetimes to live and and come back and do it right. So, you know, that's one option as well. Don't be in a hurry.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

Great advice all around for sure. And I think that like super relevant to folks uh growing up in today's world. And you know, I appreciate you taking the time to impart that wisdom. I've learned so much. I know listeners will as well. Uh, I have all the links in the show notes to your work, to you information about yourself so they can learn more and get in touch and hopefully explore cooperative principles a bit more. Um, so thank you so much, DG, for taking the time to share your wisdom today. I really appreciate it. It was great connecting with you.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Thank you, Drew. It's been a pleasure being here on your show, man. And just, you know, I'm available. I'm getting ready to work with ASU here in Arizona. Uh, they have a co-op certificate program, and I'm working with the people there to help uh educate people about co-ops, young people about co-ops. We also have a youth co-op for kids under 18 called Youth Express. So you got to get to them before they, you know, get messed up in the head. So that's the key, right? So the youth co-op where they own and operate their own co-op for kids under 18, and it's like a, I call it uh a junior achievement on steroids, you know, because it gives them ownership. Uh, and then when they turn 18, their membership flips into the Global Village Co-op. So we're doing a lot of great things to teach the next generation of co-opers, you know?

SPEAKER_02 44:29

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for all the work that you're doing to do that and to share that wisdom. And uh really appreciate it. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

All right, take care.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

And that was DG Safir Hopton. Really appreciated this conversation because it's not every day I get to speak with someone who carries five decades of hard-won wisdom, and it really shows. There's so much I'm taking away from this, but there are a few things in particular that stood out. The first is that sense of historical humility. In Web3, we can get so caught up in the excitement of what we're building that we forget we're standing on the shoulders of a long-rich tradition. Cooperation, shared ownership, keeping prosperity local, these ideas have deep roots, including in African and Indigenous economics, stretching back centuries. We didn't invent decentralization, we inherited it, and the more we honor that lineage, the better the things we build will be. The second is that cooperation is a serious strategy for businesses and communities alike. It's easy to dismiss co-ops as feel-good projects that can't compete. But the track record says otherwise. Whether it's credit unions, outdoor adventure brands, agricultural cooperatives, or co-op grocery stores, member owned models have proven they can be resilient, durable, and successful, often more so than their extractive counterparts. And this is because the people who use them also own them. And the third is the wealth of practical lessons here for our digital communities. The challenges DAOs are running into right now, you know, the classics like how to govern fairly, how to keep members genuinely engaged, and how to stop power from concentrating in a few hands, are not new problems. The cooperative movement has been solving them for generations. And if we're willing to listen, there's a whole playbook waiting for us that we can draw from. And at the same time, maybe these new digital tools can help co-ops with some of the challenges they've long faced, around raising capital, scaling up, and coordinating members. That exchange in both directions is where I think the real magic will happen. So for listeners who want to learn more about DG's work, explore the Global Village Co-op, or pick up a copy of Creating a Co-op Village, we've included all the relevant links in the show notes. And whether you're dreaming of starting a co-op, bringing cooperative principles into your DAO, or just building a stronger, more inclusive community, I hope this conversation gave you something to carry forward. So a huge thank you to Digi Safir for sharing a lifetime of wisdom with us today and for dedicating his life towards building more prosperous and inclusive communities. And that wraps up today's episode of Crypto Ultras. Thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. If you're inspired to explore more stories at the intersection of Web3 and Social Impact, be sure to visit us at CryptoUltras.com for articles, resources, and more. And if you love what you heard, it would mean the world if you could rate moving and subscribe to the podcast. Your support is huge in helping us reach more listeners like you and keeping the platform going strong. Thanks again for joining us, and I look forward to having you back for the next episode. Until then, let's keep showing the world the good of crypto.