Quick Clips | Paul Goedhart | EP 29

Quick Clips today with Paul Goedhart of ColorInvent B.V.

Paul pioneered for some of the larger coatings multinationals. Specialized in the main aspects of color, pigments, applied colorimetry and intercultural business development.

 Paul started his career at Akzo Nobel Company. He has worked for  Azko Nobel for 22 years. Started as a Supervisor OEM Color lab. He was OEM color stylist, developer and pigment specialist. On 1994, he became a pioneer to a Car Refinishing color in Japan & Indonesia. He by then introduced Automatchic (spectro program) in the Japanese market and established contacts within the Japanese OEM's. Achieved technical /color approval at Toyota Japan. He set up Akzo Nobel refinish global color in Asia Pacific and set up high efficient color centers in Osaka, Jakarta as well. 

 In 2001 to 2007, He set up global refinish color centers in various places such as Wloclawek, Sao Paulo, Mexico cit and in Bangalore.

In 2007, he started working at Valspar. He became the Global color manager Automotive refinishes at Valspar. Paul had setup of the Shunde colorlab, internal and customer spectro system and standardization of various topcoat color lines. After a few years working in the same company, he became the Technical Director Global Color. He is responsible for the Integration, implementing and align diverse performance coatings color platforms into our formula development centers to achieve utmost efficiency and quality through best practices.

 And now, he's already a Managing Partner of ColorInvent B.V. which is located at Zutphen, Gelderland, Netherlands. Paul specialized in setting up color development systems for paint manufacturers and their end-users

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https://www.buzzsprout.com/1895628/11436883

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Transcript

 Hey guys, this is Adam from the podcast and you are listening to Quick Clips. Quick Clips are condensed versions from one of our previous podcast episodes featuring some of the interesting things our guests had to say. If you want to hear the full episode, we'll have it in the show notes below. And with that, let's start the show. 

You are working for Axel Nobel, uh, and it says, I have here that you started in 1985 ish, um, somewhere around there. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. Something really interesting to me about that time period, especially with automotive paints, is that, is around that time. That's when they kind of started going to a clearco, basecoat, um, type, um, scenario. 

Uh, mass produced cars, and you look a lot of those at a lot of those cars from the eighties. And they had lots of clear coat problems. Lots of clear coat failures. Yeah. Which, you know, so your clear coat is there obviously to help protect your base coat, to keep it from fading and everything like that. 

Along with obviously lots of other things. What was your challenge as a car color artist in that early eighties, um, in that kind of environment? What kind of challenges were you guys trying to overcome? Now, actually that was just before my time. That's, That say the, the non-clear coated base codes. Mm-hmm. 

so I never had to work with that. But they are still existing. Hey, we have this single stage top codes without clear codes. And there is, there is of course an challenge in, uh, in matching because, uh, you have a higher build. Uh, base coat. What means the orientation of the aluminum is not as good as perfect as a, as a very thin base coat. 

So the colors look more, say, uh, less depth. There's, there's less metallic effect. It is more gray with, with texture than a real metallic color. But actually, when I started in Oxo, it was already, uh, based clear codes. And actually, uh, when I started, one of my first callers was actually one of the. Pearl colors. 

So, oh, they went from, uh, metallics, uh, big market share. Went to the pearls, to the micas actually. So that was very nice. It was a new, a new pellet of, of say glitters, uh, next to, next to the existing metallics were coming. Yeah. And that was, that was very interesting. What, uh, what challenges did you have transitioning from, or I guess I wouldn't be transitioning. 

incorporating pearls versus metallics. Um, what were some of the challenges you guys had to overcome with that? The challenges were, in the beginning were the filtering, say the, there were, there were some larger particles in the in, in the pearls, so that that was in the OEM giving some issues.  that filters, uh, get filled. 

But, uh, of course the companies, they, uh, they fix that problem and that, that is not a problem anymore. Uh, and of course the, the behavior of pearls is, is completely different. But, and I found that myself because I was, I was working with really with bad paint, of course. And, and if you say, uh, mix, uh, blue with yellow, In pigment's, you get green, but if you mix blue with yellow in pearls, actually you mix light so it gets whiteish. 

Interesting. Doesn't become green because it is adding up. If you add, if you mix light, it's adding up. If you mix all the lights, you get white, and if you paint, you get actually interior, you get black. So with pearls, you actually mixing light because they're. Particles with, with, have no pigment on it, but have break, are breaking the light to a certain color. 

What was the kind of the challenge from switching from like lead base to, um, to the, to whatever you were switching, um, going over to when you were kind of, first starting out, what, what challenges in color was that? There was, uh, actually with this new red pigment from siba, there was not much challenge because it was the, the, now the prize is a challenge, of course. 

Uh, LA is, was very cheap and, but rather dirty. If you compare with, with this, uh, this red pigment from siba and so you can actually add some, some black and some iron oxide to make it better hiding. So you, you need less, but um, All the challenges was the meta. I dunno if you know what that that is. Mm-hmm. 

That if you switch the light source, the color changes and uh, uh, lead colors built with lead had in, in yellow light a different appearance. Then say colors not built with lead. So, so there you really had to trick sometimes, uh, with, with all kind of add addition, maybe a drop of green, but you would never do. 

To, to get also good in the other light sources that, that were challenge and there are still challenges. There are still colors with LA in it. And if you want to make them with non-lead paints, then you will, we call meta meric. Is there an OEM out there that you think has some of the best colors? Um, across the board? 

Just, they just always seem to come out with these really exciting, great executed color. Toyota it has, has some good colors, some colors with, yeah, say there's three coat pearls with some, uh, I dunno if you know, cre in it and that it looks, the pearls look very, uh, smooth and it looks almost like a solid color. 

But when the sun is on it, you can see it's an effect. There's, from Japan, Japan, it's, it's very, very popular this sico. That's why they have a lot of experience. And there is, of course, there are a lot of interesting colors nowadays, uh, from. , especially Marza comes with this. So red crystal, uh, this isn't candy color. 

Mm-hmm. , which is on the limit of what is possible. And, um, they have this gray color, uh, machine gray, which is also very smooth and they have very deep in the flop and they're very challenging for the refin industry. So for us, for me, it's nice. I. I like challenging callers, but it's a, it's really dramatic for the, for the off the market because it's very, very hard to, uh, to repair these callers. 

It, so the spectro photo meter, you sit down with your now business partner and you guys come up with this idea, or, uh, I mean, how did that happen? Like, how do you, how are you guys coming up with, um, the idea behind something like that? Now the, like, Oxon Nobel was already working with spec photo meter and oh, pbg, so the big guys, they had it already. 

Uh, so what, uh, I said, well, I need to implement this system also in, uh, in sbar. They didn't have it. So they had something but not, uh, efficient. And uh, what we did together is making the say the perfect. Uh, without the, say the glitches from what Oxon Bell still had in it, because we were new, so we could make, build it the perfect way in class. 

My partner came also from Oxon Be, and actually he did not use, uh, Oxon Bell technology because he was not allowed to do that, and he reinvented, and that was together with me on this napkin, uh, say, uh, the, the approach. And that's what's proven very successful. So, um, with a multi-angle speco meter, uh, with a newer type with what was l e D based, that was also an improvement because l e d is not declining like a normal tungsten lamp. 

What was in the old spectro photometers, after two years, the collar will change slightly. So, uh, we started with an l a d, uh, multi angle. We started with complete new algorithm. And, um, we developed a system online so that it's always everywhere the same. Everybody's working the same time. Uh, combining in with, uh, the people's knowledge, the color matches. 

So not, not just some method, uh, some engineer or some, uh, scientists who make algorithms. Now we really. Look in the brain of me and of of other color, color specialists and see what, how are we working, uh, how are we, uh, making a color? And that is built in, uh, in the system. And IP is from class, so we now can still use it because he was that time already consultant. 

If you're using the Axo Bell, um, Spector photo meter versus the one that you guys came up with, you said that it took you less than four attempts to match color using.  that photo meter. If you were using the Axon Nobel one, are you, are you improving? Is, is the percentage of improvement? Like 50%. So it takes eight attempts on the Axon, Nobel, um, meter. 

Yeah. Something like that, yes. Wow, wow. Uh, then that is a lot of money because one trial in the lab is what is around 25. So, uh, cola, you can save. Uh,  Hey guys. Adam from the podcast. I hope you are enjoying today's episode. Just wanted to ask you a quick favor. If the show has brought you value in some way, would you mind giving us a review and sharing the show? 

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Let's get back to the show. I gotta imagine, I'm just, I'm just making a guess here or an assumption. I gotta imagine that you're probably a pretty big fan of robots spraying and mixing, and the more automation, the more reliable something is, you're probably a big fan of it, right? Yeah, certainly. Yes. Um, is that something that. 

on its way to becoming a lot more popular. Is robotic, um, spraying for these kind of color companies or like where do you think we're sitting with that? Yeah, for the, for the cooler labs? Yes, definitely. Uh, there are big, uh, uh, players which have already sits in the complete automated lap. And, uh, then everything is. 

uh, the mixing, the spraying, uh, measuring, uh, put in the oven. Everything is with the robot. Arms is controlled. Mm-hmm. , it's a, it's very expensive, but, uh, the return of investment is, uh, is for sure within two years because you make, you can make a tremendous amount of, of, uh, mixture per day. So also many colors and occur is very high because no human errors in mixing is there. 

So we are a big fan of that, and we talk actually with companies making this, uh, this equipment, if we can be part of them, uh, in this, uh, this whole, uh, uh, setup. But for this mid-size companies, I think that is at this moment, this, this is too expensive to invest in. So we try to do semiautomatic, and that means with automatic dispenser only, but. 

The, the formula is sent by the computer so they, they don't have to type or whatever anymore. And, uh, so it is more accurate than completely by hand. And, uh, actually spraying is by hand is still faster than by robot because, uh, you can, uh, fasting the, the cleaning and say the, the drying by, by uh, blowing it is just a little bit faster. 

Using and completely in the spray machine. What do you think is the future of color like, I mean, you've obviously been in the industry for a very long time, pretty much your entire professional career. What is something that's on the horizon that you think is gonna make a big difference in color or you know, what, what, what's on? 

What's something that we can look forward to in 5, 8, 10 years? Yeah. It is very difficult to predict because we go to this autonomous, autonomous driving. And, uh, the question will be will people want to, you know, being in a kind of auto train, car train, all looking the same without having to drive? Or do they want to stand out? 

We don't know yet. What we know for sure is that for autonomous driving you need different pigments because some like carbon blacks, uh, they, they are difficult to see by lighter. , that means, uh, that carbon blacks, if, if lighter is chosen to be the due system, carbon blacks will not be there in the coals anymore. 

Interesting. But they will probably make blacks without black or with, with special blacks, uh, but no carbon black anymore. But you cannot get as deep then as the, the duplex that you see now in the, in the industry. I didn't even think about that. But that makes a lot of sense that if you're using, um, just, even just like cameras, In cars for your, uh, automated driving, that having a, having a red, blue, or yellow car, like the yellow is gonna pop and be seen easier than a blue or red one. 

It's gonna be much easier to track micro, um, uh, micro movements in that vehicle versus the red and, uh, red and blue one because it's just, it just appears better. I, I would also imagine then that.  colors would be next, would also be very low on the list of being acceptable because it, it diffuses light instead of, you know, um, redirects it right back. 

Didn't even think about automated driving having a big play or a big, um, influence on what colors of cars could be in the. Yes, it'll certainly, it'll certainly, and that is also with, uh, with radar, uh, for example, aluminum will block a radar. So you cannot have full aluminum anymore. You need at least creating holes in it where, where these radar beams can, uh, go through. 

And so, uh, and also, uh, there's a lot of looking at, um, say, uh, uh, Using pigments, which keep the car a little bit cooler inside, you know, so, mm. Uh,  is of course, uh, is easy for that, but also using different dark pigments, which are not heating up as easy as carbon complex. So definitely, uh, that all these kind of things will influence, uh, the color palette. 

I, I'm pretty sure that you probably can't talk. In detail about this, but are there electric car manufacturers or automated manufacturers that you guys are talking with right now to kind of help solve some of these problems? Like, um, is there a problem, what you haven't already talked about, like aluminum blocking some radar signatures or whatever that they're trying to overcome and you guys are helping 'em with them? 

Uh, or it's just, you know, well known in the. . Now, we are not doing that yet. Uh, I mean, we are just starting, but, uh, yes, it's, it's happening. So when you want to have a, a color approval for the big manufacturers, you need to be also approved for certain criteria. Uh, in relation to, uh, Rayor and uh, lidar. 

Alright, that does it for today's Quick Clips. If this episode has brought you value, would you mind giving us a review? Also, if you would like to learn more about Clarity Coat and what it can do for your business, please visit us@claritycoat.com. See you on the next one.