Extended Episode: Kerry Hill - Animal Trainer

In this extended podcast episode, you'll hear more from Kerry Hill who is an Animal Trainer at WWT Slimbridge. Kerry, Rosie and Eliza discuss Kerry’s relationship with the birds, her postgraduate studies into animal welfare assessments, and listen to her advice about how to apply for scholarships, grants and bursaries to help you apply for interning and volunteering. 

Some resources that Kerry recommends are:
British and Irish Association of Zoos & Aquariums - website and YouTube
Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust - website, Instagram and YouTube
WeBuzz by Animal Concepts podcast - listen on Spotify
Association of British and Irish Wild Animal Keepers - website
UCAS Scholarships, Bursaries and Grants - website
Access to Higher Education Funding - website

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Check out our website

Transcript

Intro 00:00

Hi, I'm Izzy host of the STEM Untapped podcast. This week we're releasing an extended edition of our previous episode with Kerry Hill, who’s an animal trainer at the wetlands charity Wild Fowl and Wetlands Trust Slimbridge. In this episode you can find out about Kerry’s relationship with the birds, her postgraduate studies into animal welfare assessments, and listen to her advice about how to apply for scholarships, grants and bursaries to help you apply for interning and volunteering. 

Izzy 00:28

Kerry, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and your job?

Kerry Hill 00:31

Course I can Yeah, I'd be happy to. So I have been working as an animal trainer at Slimbridge for the last three years, I think four months I think I worked that out. So almost three and a half years. We train really unusual species at Slimbridge. So normally, if you visit a zoo or maybe like a falconry centre, or an animal collection that does bird displays where the birds fly around you or come out and do some public interaction, they tend to use birds like owls and falcons, really cool birds with big scary taloned feet that can do some serious damage, so people have to wear gloves. And we fly ridiculous things by comparison. So super cute ducks we've flown, we've got a little egret with like these gorgeous plumes on the top of her head. They're a lot harder to take seriously. But I think we're one of the only places in the UK that I'm aware of that is flying birds like that. So flying wetland birds, some really cool species.

Rosie 01:33

Hi, I'm Rosie, I'm studying BTech sport, art and history and French, I think we'd like to interview you because I think the fact that you’re an animal trainer’s really interesting to us. And it's quite a variable when it comes to the STEM subjects. Because you often think of like quite common stuff like doctors or like mathematicians, you don't often go to stuff like that. And I think that's really interesting.

Eliza 02:02

Um, hi, I'm Eliza, I'm studying BTech sport, drama, and history. And I'm interested in what Kerry does for a job because doing an animal trainer is quite interesting with the relationships with the animals and other like experiences in that like area and industry of it.

Kerry Hill 02:22

That's so nice. I love that you're both doing a BTech as well. When I went back to college… So I did traditional A levels the first time, didn't really like what I’d done and I went back to a practical college to do a BTech in animal management. And it changed my life. I love Btechs, like a huge kind of advocate of them, think they’re great, think they’re like a really, really good way to get into higher education as well. Even though lots of people don't think of BTechs maybe as being like a normal route to go to get to uni. Loved my BTech.

Rosie and Eliza 02:54

How's your day been today, Kerry? 

Kerry Hill 02:56

Oh, that’s such a nice question to open with. It's been good, thank you. I was just saying to Izzy, I've got a week off. So I've got my annual leave until Saturday is my last day off. And I'm going to do a little bit of work on… so I’m also trying really hard to finish my postgraduate degree, part time in my time off when I'm not at work. So that's what I've booked my week off to do off from work, but just doing a different type of work.

Rosie and Eliza 03:23

So what does your like week typically look like? What sort of stuff do you normally do and is there anything that doesn't normally fit your schedule?

Kerry Hill 03:31

Every day, we do lots of cleaning of them, feeding them, preparing their diets, kind of just observing them. So sometimes it looks like we're not doing loads of work, because we're just sat with our animals or stood really near them and watching them, but just making sure that they're kind of behaving normally, they look themselves. So that takes up a lot of the main part of our day. And then over the course of a week, we probably have training programmes for each of our birds that we're working with. And we probably have goals that we try and achieve in the space of the week. So if we're looking to train one of our birds to do something like accept an injection, so we train some of our birds to come and stand on your arm and get used to a fake injection being prodded where they'll have the real one, we might say okay, by the end of the week, we want the bird to be tolerating the pretend needle pressing and quite hard where the needle is going to go. So we like to evaluate our training goals around once a week. And it's because our job can be so, like unpredictable, because we're working with animals and like working with kids and like working with some other people. They're their own little personalities, you know, sometimes because they can be unpredictable, it throws your whole day or your whole week out of whack. And that's fine. As long as you're adaptable, and we've got a team that is pretty adaptable and can respond to what the animals are doing. It's okay we try and make everything fit. And if not, that's okay, we've got the next week. We kind of all band together as a team and we can catch up on anything we've missed.

Rosie and Eliza 05:02

Which is your favourite bird to like work with?

Kerry Hill 05:05

Oh, that's such a difficult question. When whenever I get asked this at work, I always say, I don't want to have favourites because we're all incredibly close to all of the birds. And a bit like with kids, we like to say that we love them all equally, but I definitely have a soft spot for our little egret. So she's called Kevin. She came with the name, and we were assured when we got her that she was a male egret. And then she started laying loads and loads of eggs. And we were like, she's definitely a female egret. I love her because she's really chatty, she makes funny egret noises at you all day long. Lots of people don't know what a flirty egret sounds like. So that's something we're quite privileged to hear every time you walk past her pen, she likes to walk along it if she knows you, and she likes you. She'll walk along as you go. And she likes to chat at you the whole way along. So..

Rosie and Eliza 05:59

Do you ever find yourself like emotionally attached to them and like does that often like affect your day or like how your how you go about your work?

Kerry Hill 06:07

We're quite a small team. So there's only three of us are animal trainers at the moment, including me. And we don't have many birds that we work with either. So we've got three geese, our little egret, our grey crowned Crane, and our two pelicans as well. So we've just got the seven birds at the moment. And because we're a small team, we are all I think it's fair to say really very emotionally attached to them. And because a lot of our work is opening up the aviary door, and letting that bird fly, you have to have a really strong relationship with them, because they're not going to come back for much else. And it's good to have a real a mutual trust with them. So we all love them dearly. But it's essential to our work. So I would say that we love them. But it's also in a professional way, sometimes we might get comments about the way that we feel about our animals and the way that we work with them, because the Slimbridge centre… So where I work and where we fly the birds is right on top of a beautiful Wetland Reserve. And traditionally, lots of people that work on the reserve do what we think of as animal conservation. So you know, they'll go out and do field projects, and they'll kind of do surveys on different animals that are on the reserve. And I think the kind of work that we do, so sitting with our geese, and feeding them their favourite treats and getting to know them can feel like a really, really different kind of fluffy, if you like, like a fluffy approach to conservation science. So sometimes there have been comments about how emotional we are. And I think we're supposed to take it in a negative way. But we're all very good at recognising that the nature of this job is being emotional about your animals, and it makes you better at your job as well. Because if you really care about them, if that animal one day suddenly feels maybe a bit sick, or is a bit off of its food, and it's not behaving quite right, you are the best person. So better even than the vets, to tell somebody that there's something wrong with that animal. So it makes you really effective at your job caring for them.

Rosie and Eliza 08:01

People like that don't sound very nice, honestly. I get that it's obviously different to what you do. But you know, it's very different the way you work with them. Because like you said, you get very emotionally attached and I think, be that little bit of like empathy, or just be like, Oh, I understand, like, you know, the animals are lovely. Like, it doesn't sound as nice as you would hope maybe.

Kerry Hill 08:26

That’s really insightful of you. You know, I think I think it's changing now that more people have seen what we do. Because when it when this kind of a theatre where I work when that first started, it was such a big change for our organisation. We've kind of really only done quite like typical quite hardcore fieldwork, conservation-y things and something like us with lots of public outreach and changing the way that people interact with nature, kind of giving them a different side, showing them a different side to it. It's a big change for a lot of people. And I think now that they've had the opportunity to understand it more, the attitudes are changing. But I really like that you picked up on and said that, because that's definitely how we feel in our little team. So maybe there's some generational stuff there as well.

Rosie and Eliza 09:14

Is there anything that you wish you would like change about your job? Or do you like how it is?

Kerry Hill 09:19

I like lots of things about my job, I would always like more ducks because they one of the best parts about what we do, and the birds that we fly. We've been talking in our little training team recently about how an indoor flying arena would be really cool. So at the moment, we fly the birds open air, and it's lovely in the summer, right? Everyone can like sit out in the big theatre and see them up in the sky and that's great. Over the winter, sometimes the weather is not very good. And sometimes it's like a higher prevalence of disease as well that can affect the birds that we fly. So it would be safer and easier to fly them indoors. So that's something we've been talking about a lot recently. That would be great. We could add that.

Rosie and Eliza 10:07

Do you travel around with your work?

Kerry Hill 10:10

Not really at all. No. But I wonder I think there are lots of places that do fly birds, or that even that train animals, small mammals and things in zoos that, unlike us, they might go to places like schools and colleges and uniform groups and take the animals there. I think that definitely happens a lot more in falconry. Have either of you ever been to something like that? Where like someone brings the birds or the animals to you?

Rosie and Eliza 10:38

No, I didn't think I think… have you been to Slimbridge as well? Yeah, we've both been there.

Kerry Hill 10:42

Ah you’re both been! And did you like it? 

Rosie and Eliza 10:45

Yes, it’s lovely. 

Kerry Hill 10:46

When did you last visit?

Rosie and Eliza 10:47

Couple years ago? Year 6. Yeah, I think it must have been year six for me as well.

Kerry Hill 10:52

So you'll both have to visit again soon. Because lots has changed. Some of the new developments. Yeah.

Rosie and Eliza 10:59

So you said you're not a big team? Do you find yourself like taken seriously as a woman working in like the animal industry? Or do people often think, oh, like, you know, it's quite common for women to work with animals? Do you get criticism like that?

Kerry Hill 11:17

I think most people or some people, let's be fair, and say some people, have that view that because it's an animal care role. A bit like other care roles in like social science or things like nursing, lots of people have this preconceived image of it being a woman's job, because sometimes people think of women as kind of more stereotypically caring. And our vet team at the moment, for example, is two women, and one man, managed by a man as well. But we used to have a three female team of vets actually, at one point, we had all women. So I think depends what role you're doing, as well. So in animal care, generally, and kind of in animal science and animal welfare science, I think, if you have a more typically sciency role, it probably helps you to be taken a bit more seriously. And animal training is, like even animal behaviour, compared to other science, is kind of like a baby science, it's still, in some ways really in its infancy. So being taken seriously with it, I think there's still not lots of understanding of it, of what it entails and what the people that practically work with it do. So I think the more kind of like established the science becomes, I think that will help.

Rosie and Eliza 12:33

Yeah.

Izzy 12:34

Do you that's why people have that attitude about the conservation side of things, and it being fluffy. Do you think that might be because you're women?

Kerry Hill 12:43

I think it could have something to do with it. So I actually, before I came to do this chat with you today, I asked some of my colleagues if they had ever felt like their gender had made them feel maybe unequal at work. And they had some really interesting comments they said that they were happy for me to share. So one of my colleagues said that most of the time, men often assume that we can't lift things, because we're girls. So our job can actually be quite practical. You're outside all year round, you have to do things like shift big loads of wood chip on tractors and trailers, sometimes you have to carry like really heavy posts and pallets to go and make some enclosure furniture for your animals. And we're all quite capable of doing that. If something's a bit heavy, we just work more as a team. And we're careful to use the right equipment to help us where we can. So I thought that was an interesting one. So that's her experience. And then our male colleague, actually he said, I realised I'm not in a position to really share experiences. But I have noticed that if I'm with any of you and a member of the public, usually a man, asks us a question, they usually address me rather than you, which I assume is a gender thing, because I'm certainly not more approachable, is what he said. So

Izzy 13:56

That's so interesting, using the word approachable as well. It's almost like the dichotomy between how people expect experience or knowledge versus approachability. Yeah, and yeah, maybe there's a little bit of an assumption that men know more. Girls, I don't know if you've ever experienced anything like that?

Rosie and Eliza 14:16

I remember like, in the younger years, in primary school, sometimes the teachers would say, oh, let's get a strong boy to come take this down with us. And I would always be sat there thinking I'm strong, I can do this. And why aren't they asking me? Yeah, it was a bit. I used to get quite annoyed at that actually.

Kerry Hill 14:36

You’d fit in really well with our team because we're exactly the same, I think because people because we're all quite slight, quite small women as well. Apart from that male colleague that I mentioned. We try and lead by example. So you know, we don't ask for help from men because often we don't need to. We've got a strong team of women that can do the job just fine. So it helps for them, I think to see us doing the physical stuff.

Rosie and Eliza 14:59

Yeah. Do you have any, like rough days at work?

Kerry Hill 15:02

Yes. But I want to say that every job probably there's rough days. I mean, in the winter, sometimes working outside isn't great in the cold and the wet and it's dark when you leave the house and it's dark when you come home. And that can be a bit miserable. And that can make a day that was kind of rough, a little bit rougher. With both of you doing BTech sport, you probably know what I mean as well, because there are days where it's probably really nice to go outside and do a practical and then other days we're like, can we just stay in the sports or whatever and do a practical in there instead?

Rosie and Eliza 15:35

Yeah. Do you have any like pets that you can go home to and like, have you ever had to train them or like, or do you not have any pets? 

Kerry Hill 15:42

I do. Izzy and I were, I was introducing my cat to her before you signed on for the interview. So I have a cat called Mochi, but she's a little bit trained. So I've trained her to do some fun things. She can spin around a little circle when I asked her, she can to wave her paw, and she'll sit on most things I asked her if I pointed out she's quite good at knowing to go up on there and and sit on there. So she's a bit trained. She should probably be more trained. I love her. She's really funny, but she's quite hard work for a cat. I was surprised. Do either if you have pets. 

Rosie and Eliza 16:14

We both have dogs. I've got a black lab. I've got a Border Terrier.

Kerry Hill 16:18

Cute!

Rosie and Eliza 16:20

I really want a cat and like I've got quite a few friends who have cats as well. They're just so cute.

Kerry Hill 16:28

I always wanted a dog. That's funny.

Rosie and Eliza 16:31

Do you have any like funny stories from work?

Kerry Hill 16:34

Yeah, I mean, so my old boss, a lady called Selena. She spectacularly got a tractor stuck in the mud one day. And we had to call, she was very embarrassed to do it. We had to call the grounds maintenance team to come and help us dig the tractor out. And so the grounds team, the lady that we called, Sarah, she came down to have a look at the situation and she stood at the back of the tractor for a long time with her hands on her hips, like kind I don’t know how we’re going to get it back out of the mud. That was pretty funny. Nothing really comes to mind. Oh, and one that you probably have to be there to fully appreciate it. So our male pelican is called Sprout and he's really clumsy. He's the biggest bird that we fly. And at the back of our theatre, there's this really nice kind of like hedgerow, it's maybe like three feet high I would say, and he really misjudged flying back into the theatre one day, he went straight into this bush, it was in the middle of the talk, there were like 300 people sat in a theatre, it was the height of summer, and he had his wings straight out. And he was just stuck. He flew into the bush with his wings out. And he didn't make any attempt to get himself out. He just stayed flat against the hedgerow with wings out waiting for someone to come and come and extract him. So my colleague that was in the crowd had to come and pick him up, lift him out of the bush and put them down to reset him. So he just looked like he'd frozen there. And he stayed there for a little while.

Rosie and Eliza 18:00

Oh my god. That’s quite funny. What made you want to work with animals? Did you ever grow up with any pets or animals? Or did you like find yourself there?

Kerry Hill 18:10

So my mum when I was growing up, she always had cats. I always remember us being kind of a two cat family. So there were always cats around. But I was definitely more animal mad than anyone else in my house. And I used to go out I used to drive her mad because I'd go out to ponds and stuff with my friends. With like, do you know nets you can buy at seaside stores, we'd go and we'd like fishing ponds or things like newts and frogs and I'd bring frogspawn home and I'd find a tank for it and my mum liked to keep a really nice clean house that would drive me nuts, I'd be bringing these tanks full of like algae and newts and lizards and slime back into the house all the time. And I think I don't really remember a time when I didn't want to work with animals when I wasn't interested in them. Some of my earliest memories are of me playing with a sticker book, if you can believe that I had this little sticker book and I used to just move my animals stickers around on the book and my nan used to cut me out shaped felt this is really ageing me, Izzy, as well talking about this, my nanny used to cut out shapes and felt for me to play with on a felt board. And she used to make lots of different animals. So it was the only thing I was interested in for the longest time. And when I was really young, the only career, so let me know if it's the same for you both, the only career that anyone ever really said that you could do if you wanted to work with animals was a vet. 

Rosie and Eliza 19:30

Yeah. 

Kerry Hill 19:31

Yeah. So I thought for a really long time. That's what I'd have to do if I wanted to work with animals. Luckily, when I was quite young, I had friends that were training their dogs. Did either if you do this with your dog, do you do like any dog sports with them?

Rosie and Eliza 19:44

No, but we did take my dog to like a puppy training school. And that's how we got him to like sit, give us his paw, stuff like that.

Kerry Hill 19:54

Yeah, so the people that run those classes… there you go… like that's a job that you can do with animals, but people don't really think about it. And that's really similar to what I do as well the skills that the people that run puppy classes use are really what we use to get the birds to do what they need to do in front of the public as well.

Rosie and Eliza 20:09

What subjects did you take at school to, like, get into this job?

Kerry Hill 20:14

This is really interesting because I actually took all the wrong ones the first time around. I was horrible at maths at school. And I think I would have really liked science, if I'd had the confidence to say to my teacher that I was struggling to understand because I think understanding something really helps you be interested in it. If you don't understand it, you're kind of just like, well, what's the point? I don't understand anyway. I wish now that I'd had the confidence to be like, Oh, can I have a bit of help? Because science is really interesting. And you can apply it in loads of really interesting ways. But it didn't know that at the time. So I focused on humanities, I did lots of English literature, English language, critical thinking, I did a critical thinking A level. And then my younger brother went to an animal college. So a land based college that does like what you're doing, it mostly did like level threes, and BTechs, and City and Guilds qualifications and stuff. And it looked really good fun. And I went and did that. So I went and did my level three extended diploma in animal management at this college. And that was the first relevant subject really that I'd done at school that had anything to do with animals. But I will say that the English A Levels still definitely helped me, because it's useful to be able to write assignments, and have like good reading comprehension as well to know what an assignment needs. So I think all sorts of subjects can be useful.

Rosie and Eliza 21:39

Yeah. Does your brother work with animals as well?

Kerry Hill 21:41

He doesn't. That's a really good question. So he did, the level, did he do is level three, I think he did. And then he went on to do something completely different. He does, he does fencing now. So he does work outside. And he does a very physical job. And he did go to university and do ecology for a little while. But I guess he decided it wasn't for him. And he wanted to do something different. So there you go, he had that really nice career trajectory that probably traditionally would have put him in the job that I'm in now or a similar one, and decided he didn't want to do it. And I had a really muddled kind of like messy introduction to this job. But I'm still doing it. And I really love it. So I would say, don't let, although the subjects obviously really, really help. So if you have a subject in mind that goes with a job that you're thinking about, I think it's great, like, go for that and do that subject, because it will definitely help. But at the same time, don't worry if you feel like some of the subjects you're doing, don't match up maybe with the job that you have in mind, because you'll probably be surprised by how useful it is. Rosie, did you say that you're taking you're doing French? 

Rosie 22:47

Yeah. 

Kerry Hill 22:48

So for the job that we do, because we present, having a second language would be really, really useful.

Rosie 22:54

So that actually wasn't an option for me, I had to do it because I was on this thing called the yellow path. And it meant that I had like good English and maths. So that wasn't an option for me. But I'm actually quite happy that it was compulsory, because I definitely thought about taking it because I knew I was good at it. But I wasn't sure if I wanted to drop something like I think I maybe wouldn't have taken BTech sport if I could choose to do French. So I'm quite happy. I had to do it so that I had the option to do a BTech

Kerry Hill 23:23

So that's good. That's a good way to look at it.

Rosie and Eliza 23:26

Is this your first job because you said you've been working here for about three years, or have you had any jobs before this may be to do with animals or just not related to animals at all?

Kerry Hill 23:35

Growing up, I always did work in you know, things like shops, I would do kind of like weekend work as a sales assistant in a shop because it's just nice, especially when I was at that age to be making my own money to sort of have some my own money to spend. That was great. And that really carried me through college as well. So I kept up working in shops for college, because you can do that, you know, lots of places will take you on an evening shift and then you've got the weekends free to do a little bit of work as well. And then when I was at university, I did a little bit of work in a kennel. Some kennels that was on site at the university. So did lots of stuff with things like dogs and cats, but they also had some lizards, tortoises, fish, snakes, and some permanent dogs that lived there as well. So I got to do a little bit of work with them, which was nice. But this was yeah, this is kind of my first full time proper animal role since leaving university.

Rosie and Eliza 24:29

What are the like hours that you work? Are they long hours or do you get like breaks and stuff?

Kerry Hill 24:34

We do get breaks but you'd be surprised how often they get interrupted by something but we try and be really good at taking breaks, we get an hour for lunch and we have half an hour for our tea break in the morning. But if it's a cold wet, you know it's the start of the week. Maybe that trickles into 45 minutes instead if we've got you know everyone's got a nice cup of tea and someone's brought in some biscuits or donuts or something. Maybe we take a cheeky 45 minutes instead occasionally. I leave for work at about seven o'clock in the morning and I get home about half five at night. So it can be a really long day. But a lot of that is to do with the fact that Slimbridge and lots of zoos actually tend to be in quite remote places. So out in the middle of nowhere with lots of room for the animals, so they tend to be places you do have to drive a little bit, even if you live as local as possible. Normally, you’ve still got like a 10/15 minute drive to get there. And you sometimes have to stay late, maybe an animal's a bit sick, and you're waiting for the vet to come and see them or you've brought them. Maybe they're new to the coming in new to zoo. And it's the first night that they've been there and you just want to watch them for a little while and make sure that they settle in and they seem okay. So occasionally you have to stay a bit late. And animals need someone to look after them every single day of the year. So that does mean somebody's got to work weekends, someone's got to work Christmas, New Year's, we try and make sure in our team that we're fair about who works, what days. So if you work Christmas, one year, you get it off next year, but maybe you work New Year's and stuff. And that's how that's how it kind of works for us. But someone's got to go in.

Rosie and Eliza 26:16

Have you ever had to work on Christmas or New Year's and like, has that been quite difficult for you, if you had like pre made plans?

Kerry Hill 26:23

I try and, I'm quite lucky, I have very understanding family and friends. And they kind of know the deal. I'll be like, I'm really sorry, this year, Christmas is mine. That's all you can do really. I mean, you explain what you do for work and that it's important. And you know, you care about the animals and you need to look after them. And if you've got family and friends that understand what you do, and understand how it's important and important to you. I think it's okay. Sometimes it's a shame definitely to miss out on things. So my family don't live near me, often Christmas is a really nice time for people to go and visit their families. But if you have to work say, Christmas Day, but you get boxing day off, and you have to be in the day after. Sometimes it's hard to get the time to go away. So it's definitely something to consider if you want to work with animals, those kinds of antisocial hours, they've kind of just come with the territory.

Rosie and Eliza 27:15

Do you ever get like called in, in the night of a bird is in need of some help or something?

Kerry Hill 27:20

We could do. We've been really fortunate that nothing like that has happened. But we do have staff that live on site. So if there was an emergency, they'd be the first people that would kind of respond. And then if they needed our team for some reason. It's possible you could get a call at a horrible time at night and you have to get out of your pyjamas or do I probably do just go in in your pyjamas. And help out. Do you think either of you would? Do you think you would want to do the job enough for that to not be a problem for you that put you off?

Rosie and Eliza 27:51

I think if it was a passion like for you like obviously, you been wanting animals since you were little. I think for me, I would just if I'm that in love of animals, I would just be like, you know, you know what the animals need this, you know, this is for them. This is for my job. I'm just going to put my needs aside because personally, I'm quite like a thoughtless person. So I probably wouldn't think about myself too much. In that sense. I'd more be focused on the animals in that moment.

Kerry Hill 28:21

I think that's how most, so most people I know most people that do animal care. That's exactly how they feel. Yeah.

Izzy 28:28

Kerry, I was wondering if you could tell us a bit more about your studies like so you were saying to me that it's collecting data. But could you tell us what it's on? And what kind of what it's for?

Kerry Hill 28:37

I can I'll try not to bore you with it. So it is, I wanted to do a study that people that work in zoos could use. So it's lovely to do research to get published and to build like a really nice research portfolio and be an academic, I think that's amazing. But for me, if I was going to do research, I wanted it to be something that had a really practical outcome. So I decided to have a look at how do zoos in the UK at the moment, assess their animals welfare. So I sent out some questionnaires to zookeepers across the UK. And I kind of asked them a bit about how do you do it. Do you like at the moment the way that you're doing it? Does it work? Are you getting good data? So lots of questions about going out and doing a welfare assessment? And then took all that data had a look at it, made some questions out of it. And then I went and presented those questions to 10 very specially selected animal welfare scientists across the world. And I basically said to them, This is what zookeepers think. This is some of the feedback we've had about welfare assessment in zoos at the moment. What do you think we can do to help them with the challenges that they're facing? What can we improve and how can we make Yeah, I guess looking after our animals and making their welfare, an easier job? So how to make that whole part of looking after zoo animals a bit better.

Rosie and Eliza 30:06

Do you ever, like disagree with some of the, like the ways that zoos go about this? Because I think one of the main topics in like English that we used to do about like persuasive writing was like talking about like, Should zoos be allowed and stuff? Like it's quite like a contrasting topic some ways. So how do you feel about zoos?

Kerry Hill 30:31

Do you know something really interesting is that every single zookeeper I've ever worked with, feels the same. And that's the all of us wish that zoos didn't have to exist. If you put your whole, your whole life is learning about how to look after wild animals, you want those animals in the wild, the unfortunate reality is at the moment, we just don't have anywhere to put them back to. So what zoos are all about for the zookeepers, is keeping hold of those animals somewhere safe for now, making sure that we keep them really healthy, keep them as genetically diverse as possible, make sure they're displaying lots of natural behaviours, they're free from disease, you know, we're working on tackling diseases that lots of populations of animals in the wild are sadly dying from. So you've got scientists in zoos, working on things like that. So that eventually, hopefully, when we've got environments that are okay to put them back into, all of those zoo animals, in an ideal world, they would be ready to go. So lots of us actually really struggle with the concept of animals having to be displaced from the wild and having to be in a zoo for now. But it's kind of I think a lot of people feel like it's a necessary evil.

Rosie and Eliza 31:46

Do you think something like maybe like, I don't know, like a virtual Zoo? Would that be like that, because then they're still in the habitat that they belong in. But there's still a way for people to sort of see how they go about their life really.

Kerry Hill 32:00

I'm all for all of those technological advances that bring people closer to nature, closer to animals, without sometimes that maybe that animal welfare sacrifice, or, you know, there can be issues with showing animals close to people sometimes, you know, that can kind of display the wrong message. So I think that virtual options to give people these messages are great. And we should have those as well. Definitely.

Izzy 32:29

Talking about your studies. Is it normal for people in your industry to do further studies like you're doing or CPD like continued professional development?

Kerry Hill 32:39

I would say yes, and no. So I personally know lots of people that are educated to higher education, and then post degree education. But equally, there are lots of keepers that maybe do a college course, or do GCSE level and they decide that for them, they want to go the practical route and the theoretical, quite hardcore academic stuff, maybe isn't for them for whatever reason. And I think both backgrounds bring something really important to animal care. So I don't think there's one or another that makes you better for the job. They're both different approaches, and they both have their, their kind of their pros and cons. But yeah, I've worked with people that you know, they're at a point in their, their academic career where they they like to think about, oh, maybe I could go back and do a PhD. So there are definitely people that are really interested in doing, like, the most amount of education that you can, the biggest thing.

Rosie and Eliza 33:36

Would you hope to maybe advance on your job? Is there anywhere like for you to go up in terms of like maybe promotion, or like maybe moving away from Slimbridge and maybe going somewhere slightly more advanced?

Kerry Hill 33:50

Yeah, in zoos. So that's a really good point in zoos. If you want to go up often what you have to do is wait for your line manager or the person next most senior, you kind of have to wait for them to leave. And then when that position becomes available, you can punt for it. But actually, there's a zoo accrediting organisation called the British and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquariums, and they have a guidebook called, I did write this down beforehand. It's called their Jobs and Careers in Zoos Guide. And in that it actually says, If you want to progress in your career, often what you have to do and what lots of keepers do is instead of saying staying in one Zoo, and waiting for that position to open, is you can move to other zoos, sometimes it's easier to relocate to another county or another part of the UK and take on a new job. So you definitely can do it. The trajectory tends to be, the higher up you go, the less direct animal care you do. And you start managing sections and doing things like record keeping finances, budgets, things like that. So it really depends, at what point you're ready to give up the animal care side of things. I think.

Rosie and Eliza 35:07

Do you think you'd be willing to give that up? Or do you just love animals too much to the point where like, you just want to stay with them.

Kerry Hill 35:13

I would love, I would really love to do this kind of job forever. But because of the salary as well, it gets to a point where you have to start thinking, Can I keep doing this? So if you want a house, being a direct animal carer, often that means that doing something like saving for a mortgage is kind of out of the question. So there's a time for it, I think, and I think lots of people are sad to leave it. Because it's it's a real privilege to know an animal as an individual, and to care for them that directly that they know you and you have a sense of their personality. I think everybody loves that. And it's why people want to do it in the first place. But there comes a time where you have to weigh up how special that is, and everything else in your life.

Rosie and Eliza 35:58

See, I think jobs like that should be maybe the most paid because it's probably one of the most important because especially what with animal caring like that could help educate children as well. I think that's you get lots of kids at places like Slimbridge, because they're willing to learn about, like you said, rare species of birds and like other animals, because you wouldn't be exposed to stuff like that otherwise. So I really think that should be a lot more paid than it actually is.

Kerry Hill 36:29

That's encouraging to hear, it's a nice thing to hear that you value, this kind of work and what it does.

Izzy 36:35

I think that's something we learned in the pandemic, as well as like, or post pandemic is the key workers are the most important workers. So I don't know what it was like for you COVID. But those animals still needed feeding and looking after I imagined, but then we come back to kind of post COVID post lockdown reality, and there are still problems with wages, for example. Did COVID affect your job much?

Kerry Hill 36:59

I would say no compared to other sectors and other industries. So for me day to day, a lot of my job was the same. And I continued to go into work and do the same hours and the same types of job every day. The only thing that changed for the period where we were in quite intense social isolation, because although Slimbridge is a big outdoor site, you know that there was a period where everything was closed, and we were just staying indoors. So during that time, we didn't have any public visitors at all. So although we might have still taken the birds out and exercised the birds, we didn't have to do the presentations, the parts where we would do the public engagement and talk to our visitors about, you know, endangered species and the importance of wetlands. So we lost that side of things, which when you care about animals and conservation, it's quite sad, although we had, you know, lots more time in our days, because you're not in and out of the aviaries prepping for displays. Yeah, it was sad, sad to not have that discourse for a little while, I think.

Rosie and Eliza 38:01

Do you enjoy doing the talks then? Because I'm sure it'd be really fun educating like, not even just young children, because some adults probably wouldn't. Yeah, yeah,

Kerry Hill 38:11

We get visitors. They tend to be families. But we get visitors all the way from little ones that come to play in, do you both remember welly boot land? 

Rosie and Eliza 38:18

Yeah, yeah.

Kerry Hill 38:20

So we get little ones want to come splash around and really boot land and then all the way up to, you know, people that are retired and they want to come and sit in a bird hide with their binoculars and do some birding for the day. So we get the whole range of people come and see our birds fly. And it's great fun. There's something really special about being on that stage and you're there with your best bird friend and like the public love to see them. They think that your bird is cute and funny and like beautiful when they fly and you're like yeah, I'm showing my bird off. And you're talking to them about something really important. So it makes your work feel meaningful if you can, if one person from the audience leaves that day, and they think Wow, I love that crane Zuri that I met today. I'm going to be a little bit more conscious about when I see videos of wildlife as pets online. I'm going to report that video. That's great. We've done our job that day. We've helped wildlife by just hanging out on a stage with a magpie goose having a great time.

Rosie and Eliza 39:18

Do you ever struggle talking to people to some people not necessarily understand maybe they're a bit like the people you said quite opposite to you? Do you reckon some people come and try and listen and be like, Oh, this isn't maybe right. Do you think they're like quite hard people maybe?

Kerry Hill 39:34

If you go to somewhere like Slimbridge anyway, there's a pretty high chance already you care about things like birds and nature and conservation. So I think that kind of serves as a buffer a little bit. But yeah, for sure, occasionally we get people that will say things like, oh, but they're, you know, but they live in an aviary, wouldn't it be nice if they didn't have to, you know, why can't they be out all of the time? So we definitely get questions where people were a bit unsure maybe about what we do and why we're doing it. But I think I was long as you've got an opportunity to have a chat with them, and explain why you're doing what you're doing, and you know, all of the education you've put in, to be really good at your job to be the best that you can be and show them that you really care about those animals. And you know, you're the person coming in every day to make sure that they're well looked after. I think if they like animals as well, they understand. There are definitely chances to, yeah, to speak to people and kind of find like a find the middle ground. I don't think you have to convince everybody. I think it's fine for people to have their opinions. I respect that, because it's always coming from a well intentioned intention place. Yeah, it's people just showing that they care about the animals in their own way. But we try, we definitely try and explain, you know, we're all there. Because we love wildlife, and we want to see wildlife preserved and protected. And kind of like we were saying earlier, it would be great if we lived in a world where we didn't even need to have zoos. But at the moment if we want to have wildlife in the future, there's not really a another model that we can use to make sure that we have those animals. So.

Izzy 41:08

Kerry, is there any advice that you'd give to anyone listening? Who is interested in doing what you're doing? Or any advice that you give to yourself when you're younger?

Kerry Hill 41:18

Think the easier one to answer is for people that would want to do this job now. Try and get some practical experience with animals, because to even get your foot in the door. That's what lots of employers look for. And that tends to be what counts. So it's nice to have the animal related subjects and to do the things like the level three and the BTech. And maybe go on to university and do animal science, that's great. But often, zoos need somebody that can come in, and is already a little bit savvy about what they're asking you to do. So if you already know what size to chop the fruit for a turaco, that's really handy. It saves them having to train you something. So if you can volunteer and if you can intern somewhere that's really, really valuable. And it helps you as well, because it gives you a sense of whether or not the job will be for you. So actually going out and trying it and doing it for a little while, you'll pretty quickly realise whether or not you can stand to wash up, you know, 100 bowls, 100 food bowls in a day. Or if you don't want to sweep up rhino straw and rhino poo for two hours in the morning, like, you know, straight away whether or not it's for you. So yeah, I think that's really valuable, the practical experience. But I do recognise that's not always possible for everybody. So you have to be in quite a privileged position to be able to give your time up for free. So what I would say is, if you find that you can't make that work, so maybe you have to prioritise making some money, that's still fine. And UCAS actually does have things like scholarships, grants, and bursaries available to help you with things like interning and volunteering and making that possible. So definitely explore things like that, if you find that the volunteering part of things is really hard for you to make time for, look at ways to support yourself to do it. Because at the moment is still really matters whether or not you've done a little bit of work, before you get to the paid job. I mean, even starter positions, often they do that impossible thing where they'll say, you know, looking for starter keepers, but you need two or three years’ experience. And it's like, well, how can it be both? So yeah, the volunteering is really important. And if you find that it could be a struggle for you to do it, definitely have a look at what resources are out there to help support you because there are some and I would say that directly emailing or phoning or going to chat to people that work somewhere you'd like to volunteer as well. People really appreciate that. And I think most places would do what they could to make it work for you as well. If you express a sincere interest.

Izzy 43:53

That's great advice. Thank you. I did not know about the UCAS bursaries and scholarships and grants.

Kerry Hill 43:58

Yes, it's called an access to higher ed… so I took out an Access to Higher Education Loan when I was at college. So I could do the second year of my level three. And it's a scheme that is designed to get you into higher education. And if you go on to university, they actually write that loan off. So that's something as well, if you come from a less academic background, but you want to go to university. There's some support available for you there as well.

Izzy 44:24

And one last question. Kerry, are there any resources that you can recommend to people who are interested in what you do? So you've already talked about the British and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquariums. But is there anything else like books or TV shows or social media accounts?

Kerry Hill 44:39

Yeah, there is. So on social media, there's something called Animal Concepts that puts out lots of podcasts for free that you can listen to. I think they do them weekly, and they're fab. They talk to lots of different kind of scientists and researchers and people that work practically with animals. And there's another association called ABIWAK is the acronym so it's the Association of British and Irish Wild Animal Keepers and they're really good if you're just starting out. So they've got lots of free resources as well. And they do a, I think it's called a, it might just be a student membership, it might be called an associate membership. But they've got lots of resources for people just starting out if you want to look at, like Animal Care guides, they do workshops that you can attend at a discounted price as a nice way to network and meet other people that are kind of starting in the industry and want to learn to look after animals. They’re all really good, yeah.

Rosie and Eliza 45:33

Thank you for answering all our questions.

Kerry Hill 45:35

They were amazing. Thank you so much. I was saying to Izzy, it's really nice to be able to talk about what our role is because lots of people kind of like you both were saying, no one really knows too much about it. So it's lovely for me to be asked questions as well.

Outro 45:48

Thank you for joining another STEM Untapped podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, then subscribe for free on your podcast app. You can follow us on Instagram @STEMuntapped. If you know of a school or group of students who would like to interview female or non-binary role models do get in touch. Likewise, if you know of anyone who would be a great role model then let us know. Our details are all documented in the show notes.