First Cup of Coffee - January 17, 2025

I'm doing a deep dive into my thoughts and feelings on the allegations against Neil Gaiman and on parasocial relationships, the writing community, and associated implications. Also, hey! Good news on audiobooks and Spanish translations.

Lila Shapiro's article on Neil Gaiman is here https://www.vulture.com/article/neil-gaiman-allegations-controversy-amanda-palmer-sandman-madoc.html

The Patreon article I mention is here https://www.patreon.com/posts/120057351

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Transcript

00:01.06
Jeffe Kennedy
Good morning, everyone. This is Jeffe Kennedy, author of Epic Fantasy Romance. I'm here with my first cup of coffee.

00:11.97
Jeffe Kennedy
Delicious. Today is, say it with me people, it is Friday, January 17th. Coming up on a along weekend in many places because of Martin Luther King Day on Monday, which is in the deepest, deepest irony, um also inauguration day in the US s of a literal Nazi.

00:39.30
Jeffe Kennedy
You can't, you know, if you write this stuff, it's implausible.

00:46.00
Jeffe Kennedy
but We're not going to talk about that. I do have some sad things today to talk about. I do want to talk about Neil Gaiman and the stuff that came out there. But before that, um for those of you who want only happy book news and tap out, um we did do the cover reveal on Wednesday for Never the Roses. And here it is. Look how beautiful. It is so beautiful.

01:11.78
Jeffe Kennedy
So all of this gold is going to be gold foil, and the thorns are going to be metallic gold paint. And this stenciled edges has Oneira's house. And that has the big purple rose, the Viridian rose, which is a little charred on one side, which is, it just captures the story. It's amazing. So that's um that's been lovely.

01:42.45
Jeffe Kennedy
Oops, reception for the cover reveal was amazing. People are so excited. People are being so great about it. And um and the book is hu amazingly high in the Amazon store for all of the hardback pre-orders. So thanks to all um longtime listeners and possibly new, it's um it's quite the ride. It's so gratifying. i over the moon. It's been wonderful. And in addition to that, this week we sold Spanish rights for Never the Roses. So that's really great. So now we are up to Italian, Russian, UK and Spanish. And maybe more coming in still.

02:33.33
Jeffe Kennedy
Additional exciting news for a long, long time, ah readers and listeners. ah I think a lot of you know for for ages, for 10 freaking years, but it's for an entire decade. ah The Mark of the Tallah,

02:50.94
Jeffe Kennedy
has been out in the audiobook, but not the next two books, The Tears of the Rose and Talon of the Hawk. And I know some of you write to me on occasion and ask, when will these books be on audio? And it's like, it's up to Kensington. There's nothing I can do. I nag them about it periodically. ah So I just found out that they sold audio rights

03:15.14
Jeffe Kennedy
not to tears and talent, which would be logical, but to the next two books, to pages of the mind and the edge of the blade. I mean, it's still really happy news, right? There'll be an audio. That's fantastic.

03:27.60
Jeffe Kennedy
um my my agent My previous agent is actually checking into ah what what they're doing with Tears and Talon. I don't know and don't know if they even know. They are um not paying attention. While she was at it, she suggested that they repackage the 12 kingdoms and uncharted realm series. It would be nice if they did Chronicles of Dasnaria too. um To take advantage, she would put in there, she was really sweet. She put in there, hot, hot, hot romantasy trend and writer.

03:59.12
Jeffe Kennedy
So we'll see. But anyway, I do get money for those audio rights. We like money. And I will get money for the Spanish rights. Spanish money. Spanish boots of Spanish leather. It's an obscure reference.

04:19.19
Jeffe Kennedy
um Let's talk a little bit about progress this week. And then we'll talk about Neil Gaiman. um So I am at 26,635 words on Strange Familiar. It's coming along. um I am more or less on track to finish on time. I am on track. It's not just more or less. We shouldn't fix this date while we're and talking, but I'm doing it anyway. There we go.

04:50.55
Jeffe Kennedy
i It's gonna be tight. I know I keep saying that it's gonna be tight, but I still think I could do it. um i I'm not going as fast as I want to be, which I feel like I should just hashtag that, not going as fast as I want to be. But I will have a better week this week than last week. And, um you know, so far as monthly counts go, I'm going to have a better month,

05:18.23
Jeffe Kennedy
Then, well, okay, so longtime listeners will remember that I had a very good um September and October. I was really working on getting my word count back up again. I probably will not exceed September and October. Why am I? might it's It's actually possible.

05:35.32
Jeffe Kennedy
but I'm definitely going to have the best months that I've had otherwise in like more than a year. So I'm just trying to be happy about that and concentrate on getting the book written.

05:52.68
Jeffe Kennedy
I'm having fun with it so that's good. um Yeah, so I think that's all of my book news. So, okay, let's talk about Neil Gaiman. As longtime listeners will know, Neil Gaiman has long been a hero of mine. A personal hero, a literary hero, love his books, really love his being.

06:20.27
Jeffe Kennedy
um We have a lot of mutual friends. I've talked to them on the phone. A long time listeners will probably remember when I got to talk to Neil Gaiman on the phone and I was so chuffed about that. And I even was bragging about how I was like, Neil Gaiman's cell phone number in my phone. And I felt very shiny.

06:39.41
Jeffe Kennedy
and We had not gotten to meet in person, although I did see him once. He was here in Santa Fe leaving the tea house as I was going in and I said hello, but of course he had no idea who I was. And if we go even farther back in time, long, long, long time, but well it's actually pre-podcast, but those of you who've been friends with me or on social media with me for a long time, you know that I went through a period of being kind of,

07:06.88
Jeffe Kennedy
Obsessed is a strong word, although the way the yeah the way the youth use it, um you know, literally obsessed, low-key obsessed with Neil Gaiman and Amanda Palmer, because I really liked Amanda Palmer's music. um And then when they got married, I got very interested in the fact that they were ah married to each other. And it's what we call this parasocial relationship, right? And so a lot of us have been having conversations about the parasocial relationship um And I just looked for a good definition of it, and this is good. um Parasocial relationships are one-sided relationships, where one person extends emotional energy, interest, and time, and the other party, the... I should have clicked through... um

07:58.38
Jeffe Kennedy
And the other party, the persona, I think persona is important here, is completely unaware of the other's existence. Parasocial relationships are most common with celebrities, or organizations such as sports teams or television stars.

08:13.05
Jeffe Kennedy
ah And so as as an author, Um, I am very aware of the nature of parasocial relationships. Some of you out there, many of you out there maybe have a parasocial relationship with me, right? We've never met. I've never talked to you. Um, it's, it's one sided, even though I'm talking to you, we don't have an actual relationship where like, I know your name and your dog and that sort of thing. And, and ask you how your mother is doing.

08:48.04
Jeffe Kennedy
So for me, with Neil Gaiman and Amanda Palmer, I had a very strong parasocial relationship with them at the very beginning. And I even made references to them in my books. I based a hero on Neil Gaiman because I always thought he was sexy. i you know I really did. And interesting, he is a dominant hero in this book. So um and And you'll see why this is like kind of funny in a while if you have lived under a rock and don't know. Actually, let me pause and just tell you that what's happened is is that there an article came out in Vulture written by Lila Shapiro, who is a writer I really respect. She ends up writing a lot about brouhaha's in the writing and publishing world. And she has interviewed me a couple of times for articles that she's written.

09:41.47
Jeffe Kennedy
um So much to the point where you you may probably don't know that she interviewed me for some of these articles because I give her background information on the personalities and the context and so forth. But she's extremely good at weaving in that information, making sure she gets verification from other people without having to actually quote me. She's actually quoted me a couple of times. but um And she always checks with me. She's she's a journalist with sterling integrity. And so it kills me. It kills me that she wrote this article about Neil Gaiman and the allegations against him of sexual assault ah because I know that Lila does her research. And the article is so damning. oh

10:31.13
Jeffe Kennedy
You know, when that's and I know I talked about it on the podcast last year when some of these allegations came out and I felt like some of the sources were questionable and some of the motivations were questionable. And now this article is just like left no question. And one of the things is is that this, the sexual assault stuff that's going on here, and and I should have warned you to to tap out if, you know, don't don't get triggered because some of this is really difficult.

11:00.25
Jeffe Kennedy
um you know, is it is like connected in with BDSM stuff, where Neil Gaiman was acting as a dom and doing harsh and causing pain and being domineering and not accepting no for an answer kinds of things that are part of the BDSM world. And so I'm um I don't even know if there's a word. Maybe there's a Japanese word for my feeling of here I based a character on him who is a BDSM dominant. um And you know, I don't know if I got the vibe or what. But um the whole point is is that he did not get consent.

11:52.17
Jeffe Kennedy
um And at And I know I'm going back and forth because I want to give you context for some of the things I'm saying. ah you know During that time when you know I was having my parasocial relationship and I was so interested in this couple that were these two very different kinds of artists that came together. And I was one of Amanda Palmer's patrons and you know ah an avid reader of Neil Gaiman's books. And I was

12:26.85
Jeffe Kennedy
Yeah, really caught up in all of that. And I remember talking, I think I blogged about it. It was before the podcast. but I blogged about being worried about them, that I was worried that their marriage wouldn't last, and now they're embroiled in a terrible divorce. But again, that's all parasocial, except that this sort of parasocial boundary begins to blur, right? Because here I am, Amanda Palmer's, or I was, her patron, um and she they both had replied to my tweets sometimes, you know, and I felt like,

12:59.56
Jeffe Kennedy
you know then that feels like it's coming back your direction right like you know them in some way. I met Amanda Palmer. and We were supposed to go to her concert and my husband's brother died and we ended up not going to a concert that night but then I saw her on the street the next day with their baby. there She was changing the baby's diaper on one of the stone fountains down in downtown Santa Fe and stopped and said hello and we talked about how David's brother had died and she hugged David and talked about how her brother had died and so Again, it comes back to like, is it parasocial anymore? And ah you know Neil Gaiman was supposed to be ah you know coming to town soon, and I was looking forward to meeting him and yeah getting to know him. OK, so that's all context for how I'm feeling about things.

13:50.27
Jeffe Kennedy
um

13:53.39
Jeffe Kennedy
The thing that this article makes abundantly clear is that he did not get consent. And that's one of the things within the whole BDSM world is, you know, like when these allegations first came out and they were talking about some of the things he'd done to these young, young women. I mean, too young, nil. I mean, he's, you know, like he's a few years younger than I am. And he was like,

14:20.85
Jeffe Kennedy
banging the 21 year old babysitter and stuff. And it's like, well, it's not illegal, but it's questionable. And you you have to be aware of where people are, you know, what people are capable of saying no to. And which he clearly wasn't. He's come out with a statement where he said that it was always consensual, that he has texts and messages. And on the first round of the allegations, that's what I thought was that.

14:51.52
Jeffe Kennedy
you know, that they have wanted it, they have liked it. um And then Lila is such a great reporter that she really made it abundantly clear that there were not the conversations and negotiations that need to go on when you engage in that kind of sexual power dynamic. And and I know that I'm probably on record somewhere being grumpy about how Oh, I want to even say anal, but it feels like really the wrong word. How people in the BDSM community get so fixated on rules, but whereas, you know, like as opposed to allowing it to be sexual.

15:38.93
Jeffe Kennedy
And and and and i'm I think feel like I was wrong. um People need those rules. You need those negotiations. There was a really wonderful article that a friend sent to me, and I think I will link to it. um that Let me find it so that I remember.

16:00.43
Jeffe Kennedy
um This gal talked about how her ex-husband was her Dom and also her abuser and she really sheds excellent light onto the so whole realm of dominant submissive relationships and what kinds of consent you need and and the power that the submissive needs to have to be able to say no, to be able to negotiate.

16:30.66
Jeffe Kennedy
and kitten one, Sam, hold on. So that created a pause for me as well on on my thinking.

16:45.17
Jeffe Kennedy
i Something that I wanted to add in before, be good if I edit it, but since I don't, I just have to loop back verbally. It creates that verisimilitude that we're having copie coffee.

16:59.62
Jeffe Kennedy
um is like the whole if you're under a rock thing, because all week long, I think the article came out on Monday, and all week long, everybody, the entire literary community has been talking about this. And a lot of people are very upset, you know, because Neil has always positioned himself as being one of the good guys, a feminist, a gentle person. And it has felt like a betrayal for a lot of people, not just me.

17:32.17
Jeffe Kennedy
And but apparently JK Rowling tweeted that she was really disappointed not to see anybody in the community talking about Neil Gaiman, which people are finding utterly hilarious because everybody is talking about it. It's just that everybody has her blocked. So she can't see any of the posts and there's just something deeply hysterical about that because, of course, she's a ah horrible turf and everybody loathes her. And so it's like she wants to pop up being like, hey, let's talk about new game. And then everybody has her block. It's kind of we have to take our our humor where we can.

18:20.91
Jeffe Kennedy
So um so anyway, that's where it came out was um and this article I want to link to of this This gal said something um that was really do good about... She talks about this in light of weaponized incompetence, which I think is really savvy of her. She says, um

18:49.56
Jeffe Kennedy
She says education within the BDSM space is advanced enough that you cannot only take a class on the techniques of worship through leather care and also on the ideology of it. If you expect me to believe that Neil fucking Gaiman couldn't access that information, you're buying into this strategy.

19:07.90
Jeffe Kennedy
which is basically the strategy of a predator. If you expect me to believe that anyone is better positioned for access to subcultures and their ethical exploration than Neil Gaiman, you're being at least a little specious. It's a variation on a very simple version of weaponized incompetence. For ages, men expected us to believe they were the only ones who could build tanks and split atoms, but they couldn't for the life of the of them figure out how to work a washing machine.

19:35.22
Jeffe Kennedy
Only women could figure out how to do laundry. Neil Gaiman expects us to believe that he could have consenting women offer to him exactly what he wanted. He could create intricate worlds that mirror the social phenomena of society, depict ideal modern-day ethics within heinous situations with gallant fantastical characters, but he couldn't possibly understand the complex social, ethical, and consent-based structures that surround sexual relationships, alternative lifestyles, and BDSM. He couldn't be expected to know they existed.

20:09.26
Jeffe Kennedy
He is shocked and hurt that these women thought of their experiences as abuse, rape, or assault because to him that's what BDSM is. No, the truth is that he did not care about that at all because he put all his intelligence into figuring out how he would get away with it and if he wanted to get away with was and but And the it he wanted to get away with was not the BDSM part of it It was the deliberate exertion of power to end of to the end of usurping control from his victims And I think that's really smart so this is an art I'll link to it But it's ah a patreon article Neil Gaiman is a predator and the community knows that by ancilla L um so

20:59.41
Jeffe Kennedy
So that's where I come out with on this. um I don't think I have put a statement particularly on social media. i I have a lot of trouble with the modern ethic that everyone must pin a statement on their position on some situation or other in part because I think that can become very performative that as long as you pin your statement, then you can be done and I am no longer president of CIFWA. I'm no longer in a position to affect this situation directly. But it's all part of what we've been working on for so long. And I guess one thing that that really gets under my skin is some of the people in the community saying, oh, yeah, we we knew he was a predator. We knew he was one of the bad ones all along. And I'm just going to tell you here and now

21:59.09
Jeffe Kennedy
That's not the case. That is not the case because having been in the position that I was in, ah we had a lot of conversations about who are the predators, who are the people who are too dangerous to have around younger writers without power. And that did not come up.

22:20.58
Jeffe Kennedy
So anybody who's trying to like Monday morning quarterback this thing and say, oh, that they knew all along, uh, I, I challenged them because he, he did a good job of wearing that mask. And that's where it comes back around to the persona with that definition of the parasocial relationships that we create a persona. And it's a conversation that a number of us have been having also about like,

22:50.27
Jeffe Kennedy
How much of yourself do you put on social media? And the thing is, is it's it's always a persona. you You only get to know some things about them. There is even someone like Amanda Palmer, who has basically made a career of turning her life into performance art. you know who is posed naked and you know done all you written these gut-wrenchingly ah intimate songs that expose things that you know like how she almost let her baby die, you know this kind of thing that people wouldn't confess to their best friends. um Even someone like that, it's still her artistic persona. And I guess that's just something we have to remember.

23:35.66
Jeffe Kennedy
So anyway, that's kind of a downer note. But yeah, so I've just been kind of in mourning over that. But also having good news. So I guess it balances. So I hope you all have a wonderful weekend. I will podcast on Monday. I will not be watching the inauguration. I almost feel like we need another word for it. But anyway,

24:05.20
Jeffe Kennedy
Go enjoy your weekend and I will talk to you all on Monday. You all take care. Bye bye.