First Cup of Coffee - March 3, 2025

Thoughts on story, character, agenda - what is the story trying to do? What do WE want to do as creators? Also, is using someone else's characters and world "cheating"? Does filing off the serial numbers transform a work?

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Transcript

00:02.04
Jeffe Kennedy
Good morning everyone. This is Jeffe Kennedy, author of Epic Fantasy Romance. I'm here with my first cup of coffee.

00:12.89
Jeffe Kennedy
Ah, delicious. to Today it is Monday, March 3rd. Here we are in March. And if you're on video, you will see that we have putty companion on the desk here.

00:24.41
Jeffe Kennedy
He is not satisfied. He wanted to be out of the room. He wanted to be in the room. He did not want my door closed. He's also annoyed. He's throwing annoyed looks at the guys out there working on the Casita.

00:39.51
Jeffe Kennedy
You would think he would by know by now. Sunday was a nice quiet day, but they're out there working today. They're doing the stucco. Windows and doors are on They're doing the stucco.

00:52.18
Jeffe Kennedy
ah Insulation's all in It's no pause. So, Killian loves to drink out of my water glass as do all cats. It's a cat thing, but his problem is, is he loves to use his paws and he will reach out and knock my glass over. He will pull things over.

01:12.14
Jeffe Kennedy
yeah, so he can drink out of my glass. I've, I've given that up. Uh, but, uh, he knows he's not supposed to use his paws on it. So that's the no paws.

01:26.74
Jeffe Kennedy
we're We're learning that, right? Yes.

01:32.36
Jeffe Kennedy
So, yeah, things are ah proceeding apace here at Casa Kennedy and Casita Kennedy. So, um,

01:43.54
Jeffe Kennedy
And making good progress on the book. i had a very social weekend. like who Who even am i um Yeah, ah Friday, i finished working right as Dorinda Jones arrived. She came up here and we went to see a movie in the movie theater.

02:08.84
Jeffe Kennedy
I know, it's like a big deal for me. We went to see my dead friend Zoe, which was good. It was well done and very interesting.

02:19.29
Jeffe Kennedy
and then Dorinda and I got to spend time afterwards um breaking down what we thought didn't work about the story. um it was It was a simple story, and i think it did something...

02:35.13
Jeffe Kennedy
We've been having ongoing conversations about this. Like what what is the story trying to do? Right? Because the other thing that we did this weekend and the reason that Dorinda came up was we had ah gathering at my house of a bunch people.

02:52.15
Jeffe Kennedy
um local-ish writers. Obviously, Darynda came a ways. Vela Roth was going to come a ways, but she got sick, unfortunately. She's down in El Paso.

03:04.58
Jeffe Kennedy
But Minerva Spencer came down from Taos, and Jim Sorensen came up from Albuquerque, as did Ursula Vernon and ah Diana Rowlands. And so there were six of us, and we had...

03:18.45
Jeffe Kennedy
just a great conversation. Um, what I'm hoping to do is have, have a monthly meeting of probably just this small group, just so that we can have conversations about the professional challenges that we face.

03:36.22
Jeffe Kennedy
There are a few people that are interested in coming and couldn't come to this one, but, um, we'll see. We'll see. Uh, Ursula referred to one thing we were talking about. She said, this is a, my diamond shoes are too tight problem, ah which I think is better than a champagne problem. Because one thing, and I brought it up here a number of times, when you reach a certain point in your career, you are, um the problems that you have are not the problems that people early in the career have.

04:09.22
Jeffe Kennedy
And they are the problems that people early in their career would love to have, um, which is why it's the, yes, you want the diamond shoes and we're happy to have the diamond shoes, but sometimes the diamond shoes are too tight and you have to find a way to, um to adjust them and talk to other people who have been wearing diamond shoes and can say, yeah, this is how I adjusted the straps. So, you know, I got a slightly different size or something.

04:41.45
Jeffe Kennedy
Um, Yeah, so so it was a great conversation. We had a really good time. put out food and um we, well, let's see, the last person to leave was Minerva and she didn't leave until like 3.30. So, um and she got to my house at 10. And it was kind of funny because I woke up Saturday morning after staying up late talking with Darynda and I thought, huh.

05:09.07
Jeffe Kennedy
My house is dirty because I planned this foolishly for the end of my two-week cleaning cycle. and So had to pick up my house, and I didn't have any food or beverage.

05:21.53
Jeffe Kennedy
And I was like, guess I need to get my shit together. It's funny because I used to plan for these things so far in advance. So I can't tell if it's healthy or jaded or whatever. I mean, I pulled it off. It came off fine.

05:38.07
Jeffe Kennedy
um There was a very funny point at which we determined that all five of them ah were talking about having ADHD and they were talking about how that affects them.

05:50.93
Jeffe Kennedy
And I was like, wait, am i the only person in this room who does not have ADHD? And Ursula pointed at me and went, no, typical. which was funny.

06:01.67
Jeffe Kennedy
But then Ursula is like, and it's not a coincidence that you are the person who organized this and got us together. So I guess that's what us neurotypicals do. We just hang out and organize things for Well, it was great.

06:17.63
Jeffe Kennedy
I made everybody come to me and it was just a terrific conversation. Such exactly what I wanted. Really smart writers, very experienced. And even Minerva Spencer, shes who doesn't like anybody.

06:34.78
Jeffe Kennedy
She's funny. She's very antisocial. ah um She has like three numbers in her cell phone, which is like her mother, her husband and me. this tells you something.

06:46.51
Jeffe Kennedy
But she was like, I had fun. She said that in a tone of surprise several times. So, and she was the one who was really pushing me to organize this. So i was happy about that.

06:58.77
Jeffe Kennedy
But we ended up having this conversation about what is a story trying to do? And what are we trying to do as creators? And it's interesting with, don't step on the keyboard, please.

07:13.53
Jeffe Kennedy
I think he's not blocking your camera, but he's blocking my screen. There you go. Goodbye. Thank you. ah Yeah. So like in my dead friend, Zoe.

07:25.42
Jeffe Kennedy
And it's about, um it is an agenda movie. It was written by this guy in honor of two of his ah platoon mates who served in Afghanistan who came home and committed suicide.

07:40.01
Jeffe Kennedy
And so it's it's an emotional movie. It was very well acted, very well put together. um but the story was very straightforward.

07:53.14
Jeffe Kennedy
So, and that was one thing that Darynda and I were kind of complaining about or analyzing was the solution to the conflict was the obvious solution to the conflict to which there was simply no obstacle.

08:10.07
Jeffe Kennedy
I mean, it was like, at the end, they're all like, well, here's a solution to the problem. And it's like, Yeah, it was the obvious solution to the problem all along. And there was no reason why any of the characters had a reason not to go with that solution. Right. You know, one thing we talk about, especially in romance, which is more character driven and depends on character transformation.

08:36.63
Jeffe Kennedy
ah We talk about how in order to have true love, in order to make the romance work, that one or both of the characters have to make a sacrifice.

08:47.16
Jeffe Kennedy
They have to make some kind of change. They have to give up, um, an incorrect belief, a false belief, or they have to, uh,

08:58.40
Jeffe Kennedy
ah sorry, I'm going back to, to Ming Li and my conversation with her. I mentioned this several weeks ago on the podcast, but it was one of the few times I've encountered somebody in real life who will come out and say what their false belief is. Cause she said, extroverts do better in life.

09:15.03
Jeffe Kennedy
And I was like, no, that's, there's no evidence for that. And I already talked about this, but we got into a long conversation about it. And I said, it's a false belief. And, and Jim was like, well, maybe you don't agree with it. And I'm like, no, that's,

09:27.86
Jeffe Kennedy
patently false. There is zero evidence to believe that extroverts do better life. and And I asked Ming Li, like, where did you get that idea? And she said, well, I i guess I was told that you know because she's an introvert and that she needed to be an extrovert because she would do better in life.

09:45.10
Jeffe Kennedy
um Which feels like a very, she was born in China and it feels like a very um Chinese tiger parent kind of thing to say, you know, extroverts do better in life. false belief.

09:56.56
Jeffe Kennedy
We have to give up our false beliefs. We have to make sacrifices. Um, it makes for a good story. Uh, there's a push in certain parts of romance to talk about things, uh, or I'm sorry, I'm crossing my neurons.

10:16.46
Jeffe Kennedy
Um, for there to be no third act breakup. ah Basically they want the romance to be happy all the way through. And you know, the thing is, is a lot, if it's a romance, you, the conflict, like there's conflict that prevents the romance from making it.

10:39.75
Jeffe Kennedy
And for them, it's like a low stress thing to have there not be that conflict.

10:47.62
Jeffe Kennedy
And there's a place for it. That's fine. That's what people want and readers want and writers want to write it. But, you know, not everyone is going to do that. So this movie was interesting in that there was no reason for the for the solution not to simply be the solution to the story.

11:09.01
Jeffe Kennedy
um Um, but that wasn't what the story was trying to do. They were trying to talk about, it was a, it's, it was an agenda heavy story.

11:19.65
Jeffe Kennedy
It was, you know, here's trauma from war and this is what happens. Um, Dorinda was disappointed because she thought there was going to be this plot twist, um, Uh, because the premise of the story and you could get this off of the, you know, IMDB or whatever, uh, is that this, uh, woman comes home from serving in Afghanistan and she's got PTSD.

11:43.25
Jeffe Kennedy
And her dead friend Zoe, that's the title of the movie, is hanging out with her and talking to her. oh And Dorinda had thought, like, by the end, that like they were going to be switched and all this, which is a very Dorinda plot twist kind of thing to do.

12:01.05
Jeffe Kennedy
And Dorinda writes about ghosts a lot.

12:05.22
Jeffe Kennedy
But no, there was no twist. And the... resolution was very easily achieved, uh, both for the external plot, uh, what she was facing with her family and with her internal emotions.

12:22.03
Jeffe Kennedy
But the movie, they wanted to talk about suicide rates among vets. And so, uh, you know, it was, it was good movie. It was well done for that. And we were,

12:33.66
Jeffe Kennedy
oh you know, with the writers talking about those kinds of things, talking about the sort of the archetype idea of, you know, like the classic science fiction and fantasy where the protagonist would be essentially an avatar of the author and like the adolescent boy fantasy and avatar of what would happen where the character would not change. And we were talking about like,

13:02.11
Jeffe Kennedy
Conan the Barbarian. Conan the Barbarian has zero character arc. He starts in a place and he ends in a place and everything is about Conan going out and doing heroic, adventurous things.

13:15.99
Jeffe Kennedy
But there's no... Conan has no particular angst that he is trying to solve, right? ah And we were talking ah about...

13:27.89
Jeffe Kennedy
um Writers using established characters. And it was a really interesting conversation because there is such a such an avalanche of that now.

13:40.44
Jeffe Kennedy
ah There is the the fan fiction that gets, and and part of why this came up is there was a fan fiction called Manacled. that was written off of Harry Potter characters.

13:54.20
Jeffe Kennedy
And I'm only explaining this for those of you who are like, yes, Jeffe, we know, ah because like Minerva Spencer did not know. She oh had never been exposed to Harry Potter.

14:07.41
Jeffe Kennedy
Those of us older generation, we would have had to deliberately seek out Harry Potter. We didn't grow up reading it like the younger people did. ah and she never sought it out. So she didn't know who the characters were. She had run across this online because she saw how many reviews but this fan fiction had gotten, like, over 100,000 reviews on um Archive of Our Own, AO3.

14:31.44
Jeffe Kennedy
And it's basically ah Malfoy Hermione um slash, I think he kidnaps her. I think that's why it's manacled. At any rate,

14:43.70
Jeffe Kennedy
this book is no longer on AO3 because it got bought by a traditional publisher and they filed off the serial numbers and are publishing this book.

14:56.10
Jeffe Kennedy
It's exactly the same arc as happened with 50 shades of gray, which had started out as twilight fan fiction, only sexier. um It was basically if Edward had been a BDSM dom and And thus Fifty Shades of Grey was born. And when it ah was published by a traditional publisher, they filed out the serial numbers because you're not allowed to make money off of other people's work.

15:23.57
Jeffe Kennedy
Right. And we were talking about, is it cheating? Is it is there anything wrong? with taking someone else's characters, someone else's story, someone else's world and writing essentially their story again.

15:41.37
Jeffe Kennedy
um Maybe, i mean, there's layers of this, right? You could take their world and their characters and write a different story. That's where a lot of fan fiction comes from is people feeling like I wish the story had gone in a different direction. So I'm going to write how I think it should have gone.

15:59.28
Jeffe Kennedy
um

16:01.89
Jeffe Kennedy
you know, which is, i don't know. It's interesting. And then we were talking about, well, what if it's, um because I wouldn't do it. And I've never written fan fiction, but I also, I think, come from an era when it didn't occur to me to write fan fiction.

16:17.71
Jeffe Kennedy
um And I was pointing out that I wouldn't want to, because for me, part of why I write, part of why I'm a writer instead of a scientist is because I want to make up my own worlds and stories and characters.

16:34.72
Jeffe Kennedy
And Minerva felt the same way. She was saying, well, isn't it creating your own characters? um You know, isn't that part of what we do? And it's like, well, so if you take someone else's characters, is that cheating?

16:48.91
Jeffe Kennedy
And we were talking about the you know, the prevalence of like taking Jane Austen characters, uh, taking Sherlock Holmes, you know, there's all these things, you know, like you take, a Jane Austen character and make her be a detective.

17:05.74
Jeffe Kennedy
Uh, is that cheating? Because you've got the world and the character. You don't have to come up with those. Then all you do is focus on the story. And it's like, well, I guess it depends on what you want to do. It's not illegal.

17:19.72
Jeffe Kennedy
um Yeah, it's an interesting question. And Jim, who loves to argue, was sort of pressing Minerva on this and saying, well, what about if you made Jesus be a character?

17:33.12
Jeffe Kennedy
Is it different if it's a historical figure? Because she writes historical romance. And he's like, would you put Napoleon in a story? And she said, well, I did once. And, and she said she did feel ever so slightly weird about it, but she thought it was different because he was a real person.

17:49.27
Jeffe Kennedy
So, so we got into this extended debate about that and it was really interesting. Um, so I am closing in on two weeks away that I have to be done with my tip in sheets and I need to do over two inches a day to be done on time. So I really have to get cranking on that.

18:10.06
Jeffe Kennedy
I got my, shipment of additional tip-in sheets. So that kind of changed my metrics. It ended up being like 83 and a half inches of tip-in sheets to sign.

18:25.11
Jeffe Kennedy
So I need to get after that. um I'm 30% through the revision. Feeling good about it. It's at over 100,000 words. and I'm hoping it'll go faster. Famous last words, right? But I'm hoping that it was mostly this early part that took the extensive revision, and I'm hoping that I will gain speed this week. We'll see what happens.

18:53.21
Jeffe Kennedy
Stay tuned. Come back here on Friday, and we'll just see how the week went. But cross your fingers for me for a faster revision rate and tip and write. I should just like, um, my mother was being snarky on Saturday morning when I said that I was having a writer gathering and she said, shouldn't you all be writing more and gathering less?

19:16.51
Jeffe Kennedy
Uh, which is actually not true because a lot of us just are stuck in our houses by ourselves too much. But, um, yeah, I do need to really focus and try to get some of this stuff done.

19:29.90
Jeffe Kennedy
So on that note, I hope you all are getting done what you need to get done and um would love to hear your thoughts on, is it cheating to use someone else's characters?

19:42.67
Jeffe Kennedy
I will talk to you on Friday. You all take care. Bye-bye.