The 5 Levels of Inclusion is an inclusion philosophy developed by Russ Ewell years ago to help guide people on how true inclusion is a holistic approach. Russ sits down with his friend Greg Bodzioch and San Jose State University student Jackson Schaefer, who is studying Inclusive Physical Activity in Communities for his Kinesiology degree and has been a coach in the inclusive soccer program E-Soccer for the past 5 years.
Their discussion is sparked by the recent articles of Chris Kaposy and Ruth Marcus. There is a level of dehumanization of individuals with special needs that is neglected in society. This dehumanization can be solved if inclusion is embraced by each person. Often our view of those with special needs results in just sympathy but inclusion is not just the sympathy of those who have special needs but empathy matched with action, because inclusion is not just showing up or bringing a group of individuals with special needs on an outing, but engaging them on all the levels of humanity. They also touch on why Silicon Valley and the Bay Area could be a catalyst location for Comprehensive Inclusion in societies around the world.
The 5 Levels of Inclusion:
Community – This is social inclusion which can be physical, emotional, intellectual, or spiritual.
Connection – This is emotional inclusion, which results in meaningful relationships between typical and special needs individuals.
Contribution – This is intellectual inclusion, where the individual with special needs develops a sense of dignity, as they use their ability to make a personal or group contribution to the community.
Contemplation – This is spiritual inclusion where the individual is able to pursue some form of meaning and purpose.
Comprehensive – Comprehensive inclusion occurs when the individual has experienced 1-4, and benefits from the latest scientific and medical research, as they grow into adulthood and an ever improving quality of life.
The 5 Levels of Inclusion is an inclusion philosophy developed by Russ Ewell years ago to help guide people on how true inclusion is a holistic approach. Russ sits down with his friend Greg Bodzioch and San Jose State University student Jackson Schaefer, who is studying Inclusive Physical Activity in Communities for his Kinesiology degree and has been a coach in the inclusive soccer program E-Soccer for the past 5 years.
Their discussion is sparked by the recent articles of Chris Kaposy and Ruth Marcus. There is a level of dehumanization of individuals with special needs that is neglected in society. This dehumanization can be solved if inclusion is embraced by each person. Often our view of those with special needs results in just sympathy but inclusion is not just the sympathy of those who have special needs but empathy matched with action, because inclusion is not just showing up or bringing a group of individuals with special needs on an outing, but engaging them on all the levels of humanity. They also touch on why Silicon Valley and the Bay Area could be a catalyst location for Comprehensive Inclusion in societies around the world.
The 5 Levels of Inclusion:
Community – This is social inclusion which can be physical, emotional, intellectual, or spiritual.
Connection – This is emotional inclusion, which results in meaningful relationships between typical and special needs individuals.
Contribution – This is intellectual inclusion, where the individual with special needs develops a sense of dignity, as they use their ability to make a personal or group contribution to the community.
Contemplation – This is spiritual inclusion where the individual is able to pursue some form of meaning and purpose.
Comprehensive – Comprehensive inclusion occurs when the individual has experienced 1-4, and benefits from the latest scientific and medical research, as they grow into adulthood and an ever improving quality of life.
[inaudible]. Welcome
Speaker 2:everybody to the, this is me podcast. Uh, we're excited today to have Jackson Shaffer with us as well as Greg Bosniaks. Some of you have already heard Greg and I do the original a podcast that launched the series on the founding of Isacur. And so you know a little bit about myself, Russ Yule and Greg[inaudible]. Jackson Schaefer is a student at San Jose state majoring and King Neesy ology with an emphasis in AIPAC, which is inclusive physical activity in communities, which is to me extraordinarily exciting and fits really well with what we're going to talk about today. So really happy to have Jackson here, his first podcast. Thank you. You're welcome. He'd been involved with e-sports for almost 13 years and is one of the head coaches at east soccer for the past five years. Uh, and uh, I believe you've done some work at hope technology school too, right? Yeah, just, just a few months. I got to work as um, as an afterschool program and I was also a cross country coach there briefly cross country. I get tired just hearing about that. Yeah. Rented in high school. Where'd you go to high school? It's a high school at College Park High School out in pleasant hill. Right. Nice. Pleasant hill next to a Diablo valley college. Oh yeah. Yeah. That's very awesome man. Cross country is tough. We had a great cross country team where I grew up in Michigan and I used to cover it for the newspaper. Oh Man. A lot of these guys. I mean you talk about the got, as soon as I feel pain in my side, I stopped doing whatever it is I was doing and the cross country guy s they're beast. They're just beast, you know. That's why you switched to soccer because you better pull that microphone next to you. Your no one else to running sport. No, no man. Soccer is the greatest running sport known to man. Next to cut, cross country track basketball was the greatest basketball. It's the greatest sport known to man. But that's fine. Uh, anyway, uh, you can tell we're very happy to be together. We're going to be talking today about the five levels of inclusion and uh, uh, Jackson has, uh, a lot of experience. Just did a presentation at San Jose state, which he was talking about, uh, which very exciting and able to share with people about his efforts and involvement with east soccer and, uh, of some of his friends are going to come on out. And one of our goals and everything we do is to try to get people more informed and more aware of inclusion, uh, and what it's all about and get them to volunteer and come face to face with kids who have a variety of disabilities. Um, and one of the things that I began to write about is what we're going to talk about today is the five levels of inclusion. So an article I put together about three years ago, which I really haven't done much about originally planned to, um, and I wrote it, uh, because I felt like the kind of inclusion that I saw and heard about and read about, um, was not, um, the kind of inclusion that would produce a quality of life that I know I wanted for my kids who have special needs. And overall I didn't think it would produce that quality of life for any kid who has special needs. One of the things that in my mind is important to understand is that there are a variety of definitions of inclusion. None of which, uh, are necessarily a bad or do I disagree with that? Does anybody disagree with, but innovating solutions socially is one of my goals. It's why we started the company digital scribbler some time ago. Me and some of my friends that produced a software for kids who have, uh, are verbally challenged in their communication and it allows them to use a device, a smartphone or a tablet to be able to communicate, uh, through typing, uh, through a variety of voices and with a variety of different tools within the tool. Uh, it's why we started at east soccer and a variety of e-sports from that, uh, is all in an effort to try to gain an opportunity to improve the quality of life for those with disabilities. The five levels of inclusion are community connection, contribution, contemplation, and comprehensive. We'll talk about that in a moment. But first I want to talk about dehumanization. I think one of the things that is often overlooked about, um, people with disabilities is the level of dehumanization that can take place. So, so, so one of the things is some time ago, uh, in, uh, earlier this year in 2018, April, actually, April 16th, the New York Times released an article by Chris Kaposi, I think that's how you say his name. Um, and it was called the ethical case for having a baby with down syndrome. And his position was that, uh, a lot of kids are being aborted because they have down syndrome because parents don't want to raise them. And he was making an ethical case, uh, for, uh, having a baby with down syndrome. And some of that is connected to a professor at Princeton, I believe it is named Peter Singer. Uh, I've read Peter Singer's work and don't agree with it, uh, because he advocates for a utilitarian view of childbirth, which is if I'm going to have a child with down syndrome and it's going to make my life more difficult and I'm not going to get the experience that I would hope for with a kid, then it's okay to abort them. Now, if he was here, he would say, okay, it's not that simplified. But anytime in my mind that you writing about the, uh, the ethical, the ethical nature of saying it's okay to abort a child with down syndrome, you are, you know, you're in a year in a swampy field. He's got a lot of lot of criticism for that. Uh, and I don't deny his right to say what he thinks, but I think the reason I'm mentioning that is that when Chris Kaposi writes, he's a bio ethicist in the New York Times about the ethical case, he sort of going and saying, look, it's not ethical to necessarily, uh, uh, abort with down syndrome. One of my favorite, um, writers, uh, is, um, Ruth Marcus and she writes for, I believe it's The Washington Post and uh, she actually is the deputy editorial page editor, which means she makes decisions about what goes on the editorial page, which you're important the opinion page. Right. But she wrote in response pretty much to the Kaposi article in the New York Times. I would have aborted it, a fetus with down syndrome. Women need that. Right. So for her, it became a discussion about abortion. I, that's not a discussion to me that, that I'm not even interested in that. What I'm interested in is the fact that they had this discussion and two of the greatest newspapers the country has ever known and I think lost in it was they the, just the, the dehumanization of the idea that a kid has down syndrome because the very idea that you're having a discussion about whether they should be kept or should not be kept means that societaly we haven't negotiated through the humanization of people with special needs.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's interesting even as you bring that up, just because of all my years of working alongside you with kids with special needs, whether it's down syndrome on the spectrum, the autism spectrum, et cetera. It's amazing because I haven't sat here thinking what, yeah, almost kind of what, right. Does somebody have to say that? Just because a child's born with down syndrome there any less of a child. And that's what like, you know, when I was thinking about just this whole discussion of dehumanization, um, it's funny, even as you were talking about that I thought, wow, I don't, I don't, because of the years of us working together with the kids, I don't, uh, it's not even a question in my mind about, you know, the utilitarian nature of the usefulness of, of an individual with a special need. Um, because I have seen how much, how much my life has been enriched by my relationships with those who have special needs.
Speaker 2:Well, let's see. The, the argument that these people would make is that, well, you don't, you don't have one, so you don't know how hard it is. And, yeah. And, and I think you shouldn't be telling somebody, I pretty much don't think you should be telling somebody what choices they have to make about life. So I'm not in that area. Right. Where I'm in is the, the social arena and ethical arena I'm in is don't we have a responsibility to make sure that people understand that a down syndrome person or a person with autism or a person with cystic fibrosis or a person who has suffered a tragedy that has put them in a wheelchair or a paraplegic. We at don't we have a responsibility to make sure that people understand that while they may be limited, they are no less human. And to me, right, the discussion of inclusion is really about humanity. I don't, I'm not saying you, I'm, I'm, I respect both of these writers. So I'm not saying that they are, you know, somehow not uh, caring about your down syndrome. Cause the articles do not reflect that. I don't care. Ruth Marcus does not come out and see. I would have aborted cause I don't care or I think they're not human. What she's saying is I couldn't have handled it and, and that's not a, you know, I can't tell somebody what they could have handled. One of my kids has down syndrome, so I, I'm like, okay, I get that you would've made him handle it. Now the, that's not the real question in a society where we think it's where anyone would think it's ethical to aboard a kid with down syndrome. What that means is that, let's say there's, I didn't look it up, the number, but let's say there is 600,000 people with down syndrome. Then maybe they're supposed to be 1.2 million, but because there's not 1.2 million, there's only 600,000 you now have cut in half the population that would have existed that would have forced society to look and say, Hey, this person, you mean? So let me segue then to story. So one of the reasons that I'm really determined to make sure my kids have a quality of life and quality life to me is the five levels inclusion. It's being involved in the community. It's having emotional connection, intellectual, intellectually being able to make a contribution, right. Being able to be involved in, in contemplation, the spiritual inclusion of finding purpose for your life and the comprehensive nature of doing all these and living a healthy quality lie. Uh, I was in a Barnes and nobles, uh, son some years ago and, uh, I was doing some work there and do some writing there and, uh, uh, a group, I'm sure many of you seen a group of, uh, special needs kids was being brought in by their, their caretakers or their guides. They were probably part of a, uh, residential yeah. Uh, group. Yeah. Uh, that was there. And they came on in and they all, uh, you know, sat down. They did it. They went around the bookstore a little bit and they all sat down. And one of the kids I noticed he had down syndrome was he had a, an aide with him and the aide was a, she was looking on her smartphone doing different stuff and he was, he was sitting at the table just staring straight ahead, doing nothing. Not, she didn't get him a book. And I understand. I don't know. I didn't know what was going on, but I'm just talking about it as observer. She didn't get him a book. He didn't have anything he was looking at. He was just sitting there literally like every now and then he tapped the table and just staring straight ahead. And in that moment I said, I don't want my kid's future to be that. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 4:To me, to me that's not, that's not inclusion, you know, that's, um, that's a child being able to be a part of a community and that's great. And I think that's what you're talking about with the community, the social inclusion, but that's completely lacking any emotional inclusion, you know. I see. Um, yeah, sorry, sorry to interrupt your story, but that's, that's just something, that's the first thing I did around my story. That was it. Oh, okay. Um, then I don't feel bad anymore. Um, but I think your, you felt bad anyway, but go ahead. How might not have, but either way. Um, yeah, I think it completely lacks a, any emotional inclusion.
Speaker 2:Why do you think it happens? So, so one of the things I don't want to do is I don't want to come across judgemental. Right, right. So I'm not trying to judge the woman. I'm not, I'm just saying that's not the life I want it for my kid.
Speaker 4:I think that makes complete sense. Um, I think that just makes me think of a story. Um, where a few years ago I was with this one. I was, I was at east soccer, I was a head coach at east soccer and in Walnut Creek. Um, and there's this one kid, um, I'm not going to say his name, but, um, there's just one kid out consistently work with almost every week for the, for like maybe five, maybe off and on seasons total, maybe two to three years. I'd see him at every east, almost every soccer session on Saturday mornings, uh, for two or three years. Um, and uh, it was, he didn't seem invested until we broke off and did the drills and we were working together and it was just me and him working side by side. And we're able to, um, like what he loved. He loved to sing songs. So the way we were able to emotionally connect with, to sing songs together and he loved to sing. Veggietales he'd love to sing different songs by Drake and Rihanna. It's a mix. He, he's, he's a great kid, but, um, just until like he didn't really get into soccer until he felt like he was included in multiple areas and not just in the group. Right. And relationship. That's, that's where I got to see the joy start to, that's where you kind of let down and that's where he is able to have fun. Let me ask you a question. Both of you guys can answer this. Were either of you ever in your life afraid of people with special needs or disabilities? As a young kid, I definitely was. Um, maybe as like growing up, like in elementary school, um, I felt intimidated because I didn't, I don't know if I felt afraid, but I felt intimidated because, um, I knew I knew the right thing was to make friends, but I didn't know how. And I w I would also be afraid of, uh, what other people would think if I were to initiate that because no one else did that. Um, but growing up and being a part of east soccer and other e-sport communities, um, helped me see that, you know, like it's, it's not about, um, it's, it's more about how can I include as opposed to being a part, you know, do you do in your, in your work with a, you know, I know you did a presentation for your college not that long ago. You gonna do another one, I think you said Monday. Yes. Do you find that people your age, college, age, high school age have the same kind of either fear or discomfort, awkwardness about, you know, what I've seen is that people, most most college students or people my age people care, but they have, they have sympathy instead of empathy, I think. I think what I, what I've seen is that people my age feel sorry for children or young adults with special needs, but they don't have the emotional capacity to put themselves in other, in their shoes and to feel for them. They might feel sorry for them and because of that they might go out and help and they might, um, they might go help different communities. But yeah, it's something I was, I was trying to teach and my presentation was, um, empathy in place of sympathy. Now, now you know, there are some people who are not and Greg, you jump on anytime. There's some people who are not big on the empathy thing. They think that empathy doesn't work.
Speaker 2:There've been studies that have been done and they've talked about the fact that having empathy doesn't matter if it doesn't lead to action. So the, the idea of I'm empathetic, I can feel your pain doesn't mean anything if you don't do anything. So when you make sense, well, I mean saying what are you, when you think of empathy, my guess is you're thinking of something those people are not thinking about. I'm thinking when I, when I think empathy, I think, um, uh, love tied with action, love tied with that love tied with action. I think when I think of empathy, I think of, um, I think of actually going out with someone else, whether they have special needs or not. I think of, uh, having the emotional ability to care about someone else despite whatever's going on in your own life and to think about what they're feeling from their own perspective. So you would tell people, look, I don't define empathy the way you define it, but we use actually you would say is what they're calling empathy is actually sympathy. Exactly. And that your version of, go ahead, Greg.
Speaker 3:I was going to say, and I think the word compassion is when I think too, right? You're talking about when you say empathy, you're talking about feeling something and taking action. It's, it's, it's having a connection, a compassion that moves you toward action. Exactly. And I, I was going to say for me, you know, we're, we're totally different generations because, you know, I grew up as a young person in the 70s and in Collin high school and college in the 80s. And for me, I was always a very social person and I always, uh, I had that sympathy you're talking about. So I was relating to that. But what, what you said Russ is actually, that's exactly what I felt. In fact, I thought back, I was like growing up, I don't even remember being aware of kids with special needs around me at all. Like it was a society. I mean, I grew up in Dallas, Texas and I remember I only, only, only person around me in my life that I remember having special needs that I was aware of before starting, before Russ and I were friends and, and I got to know his kids and we started, he soccer and all, um, gosh, I had a cousin, a distant cousin, had down syndrome and I, she was the only one I was ever around in my whole life. And I remember what you said. I remember fear, even though I was such a social person, I was so afraid I was going to say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing or that I didn't understand her world. So I was afraid to get in it. And that changed so much. Obviously through soccer is like I was the first time I was able to get into the world of, of someone I felt like I don't understand or, and I realized there's, I'm not gonna make a mistake if I just care and I just jump in and learn. And that was for me, that was a big part of it. So you didn't have kids with special needs in your school? You know, it's funny, I was thinking about that and I, um, I know we did because I'm, I'm sure we had, you know, special education classes and all, but I don't remember, I don't ever remember having any interactions through high school, junior high. Like I can't. And now it might just be, you know, a a statement of me and how inner inward focused I was in my own life and being an only child and, and just trying to get through life and my f my circle of friends, but I don't remember having, so there was definitely no inclusion going on around me in the circles I ran in growing up in sports with soccer and in my high and because
Speaker 2:I don't remember any opportunities to be included in those things. I clearly remember special education classes, especially in high school. Um, and I remember, I remember the first time I ever saw someone with the injury was in third grade. A young lady had a neck brace on and I was afraid I was, I didn't want to be around her. I didn't want to be near her. And uh, then I remember in high school, well before high school we use w we use the word retarding called people mental retort all the time. Yeah, all the time. You're a retard all the time. Literally. Like it was never that. It was the, it was the thing you said. If someone was doing something, do fis or whatever, and then, um, and that, you know, we're talking with the 70s here. So for those who in the younger you'll go, yeah, I understand that, that not, not talking too recent, but uh, and then I remember in high school making fun of kids that were in special education. Now they didn't all ha this is the interesting thing. I don't know that they all had disabilities. I think they were behind academically. And one of the things you'll find if you do a little research is in school, uh, systems around the country. A lot of times special educations where they dump kids who slow the class down and so they're not all, uh, diagnosed with something they all don't have. Intellectual disabilities is, yeah, yeah. Well then all don't have any dis like they just not, they're not, sometimes they're minority kids who cause disturbances in the classes and teachers want to get rid of them and so they go, this kid's not learning well and they get them into special education that has been known to happen. If you go back and do your research, I think there was this long time ago, there's a lawsuit brought in Boston or an investigation on Boston years ago because more than any other number, black kids were put in special education and not because they had any educational learning challenges what so ever. Uh, and so, uh, I just think when I was in high school, I did those things. I saw him and I remember being in the mall and if I'd see somebody, you know, you stare or not, I shouldn't say used to, I stared and I'd be like, you know, you stare at the person in the wheelchair, stare at the person who looks unusual. Sometimes I was staring at people who didn't have anything. They just look different. And I saw a t shirt today. I was a out in a young lady, was had a t shirt on. Different is good and I made note of that t shirt. Cool. The reason I'm bringing all this up is because I think sometimes we think because we're involved with e sports or whatever, that we are different than somebody who thinks that life was a special needs is challenging. It is challenging. You know, I've parented I've, I'm a parent. It is challenging it. You've got to do a lot of things that other parents don't have to do. And so when somebody says, I don't know if I want to have that kid, I want to make clear, I, I can understand the thought. I personally never had it, but I can understand the fear and the, and the, do I wanna do I wanna spend my life not being able to go places and do things that everybody else can do? That's the question. Right? And, and part of the solution to me is I'm not, I think fewer people would see having a kid with special needs as a massive liability. Hmm. If we practiced real inclusion. See, that's the thing. I think part of it is if I'm looking and going, my kid is going to have all these disadvantages, then I might think I'm doing them. And I think it's on the literature. I've read people say, I feel like I did my kid a favor by not letting them come into this world where they could be brutalized that I can understand. And so, so, so, so, so that to me says less about that individual and more about our world. That's a great complete sense and that kind of changes my whole perspective. When you said that, I can understand how someone would feel that you're right. I think inclusion is so important, right? Like I think, I think when you say, Hey, just have a kid, I have a kid with special needs, you should have given special needs. All right, that sounds good. Yeah, it sounds, maybe it sounds right, but it's easy for someone that doesn't have any kids with special needs to go. You should have the kid special needs. I just think that's not the, that's not my position. My position is the world needs to be changed so that somebody feels like they have the option. And so take a look at this, right? When you, when you take, when you, when you look at, that's why I call the dehumanization the greatest societal tragedy. I think the last great prejudice in the world is not toward any race or any ethnicity or any gender. The last and most severe prejudice in the world is toward those disabilities. Any group will be more severely punished in life if they have a disability. So if somebody got a gender difference, they're going to have it worse if they have a disability, if someone's a different color, they're going to have it worse. So the, the, there's, there's nothing more severe. Yeah. Then when you put that in there, and I think our society has to change. Otherwise what you're going to see is the increasing dehumanization and what you're gonna get. And I hate to go on, you know, think about it. I'm not a bioethicist. I don't, that's not my expertise. But imagine this, right? Where you get to the society where you start going. Well, I was really hoping to have a kid who'd be six, three and could pitch in baseball so I could go watch them. But now that they've done all the genetic testing, I realize it's probably only going to be six foot. Yeah. So I don't know if I want that kid, like you start moving into the weird territory. So that's what I think about. But inclusion is based on community connection, contribution kind of place. Comprehensive. Let me ask you guys a question. Do you think getting society to embrace this kind of inclusion, do you think it's like impossible in a pipe dream? Do you think it's possible? What do you think you guys looked at it? I tell me, I think it's possible. I think as we're having this discussion, I think one of the challenges, especially in the, in the, in the spot
Speaker 3:we live in, in the world here in the Silicon Valley, in the United States, I go, man, we're sadly in, we are in, in a place where, um, performance is so, uh, so valued that cause when I think about east soccer and I think about my relationships with all the kids out there and my own son who's got, you know, some, some mild, you know, mild special needs with, uh, I just think about how, how enriching, how rewarding is the relationship, the, the relationship aspect of doesn't matter, you know, where the different kids are that I work with on, on the spectrum and, and whatever the special needs. Um, there's, there's so much value in those relationships that I have, but do, do, do you think it's possible though I think it's possible by thinking it goes against the grain of a society that really wants to look at human beings as how are you going to perform in this society? How are you, is your performance in these different areas going to meet our standards to make you, I hate to say, I mean it sounds kind of, uh, um, sounds so non-relational, but I do think that that's why a lot of times kids or adults have special needs can be, can be dehumanized or can be less feel to people, less important because they're not able to perform as highly as someone without those particular challenges or whatever. So I think that, I think it's difficult, but I think it's possible. Why? What makes you think it's possible? I think it's possible because I think, um, well at least in this fear that I see working any sports and I see it happening in the school, in the schools, I see them people working in it and I see it going, moving that direction. But I don't, I think I see it in certain segments of society. I see it, especially in the sports arena more and more. I see, even in the area that I work in with soccer and all the relationships I have in different soccer organizations, I see them trying to include more and even in typical sports organizations around me. So I see it starting to happen in certain areas across society. That's, I don't know. I mean, maybe I saw so. So
Speaker 4:you don't have a lot of hope. I mean, you don't sound too hopeful right there. Yeah. Well, I don't know if I ever considered like you said something interesting. So let me ask you a couple of questions. Yeah. You said, you said, do you want to get in here? Check? Yeah. I wanted to say something real quick before I move on. Um, you know, we're not gonna move on. Okay, great. Um, then I'll say what I want to say. Um, so yeah, I think from what I've seen is that at least after I gave my presentation at San Jose State, is that people, people are inspired by, by making change. I think, um, I think this is something that, uh, that can happen. I think total inclusion can happen, uh, simply because if you introduce it as something that can happen and you believe it yourself and you show people how it can happen is with, with programs like Isacur, oops. I think if you show other people, um, how it changes lives, people are inspired by that. People see how if they can even be a part of that, how they can even be a part of the change of something completely new. Yeah. Um, so I agree that, that it could, I agree with you a but more
Speaker 2:on the basis of a B, it would change more because other people see how much impact it can make. It's interesting you say that because, um, you know, all the programs we've developed and including the spiritual program that we developed called spiritual resource ministry, that actually goes in a, you, it gives churches away to include special needs kids in, in their churches. So not only do we do the sports things that we've done, but we've also got that. Um, um, several years ago, uh, a friend of ours, um, found out they were going to have a kid with down syndrome and they were not devastated. And what they said is the reason we weren't is because we knew being in the community we were in, there were going to be all these things we could do. So it changed the way we think. So what you said, Jackson is what I think is that when people have an opportunity to be around it, suddenly if a kid has been involved in a program like he hoops finds out from his parents, we're going to have a child with special needs, then that kid thinks very differently about that, then he would if he didn't have that exposure. Now I want to come back to you Greg and ask a couple questions. Cause you, you didn't seem completely gloomy, but
Speaker 5:you seemed a little, you see those blue me, wow. James Jackson Jackson rushed in there to save it, save it, save our ideal isn't before on the ground.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So when you think about Sam, you mentioned, you specifically mentioned being in Silicon Valley and you made it sound like you think silicon valley is the place that's based on performance. You really think that that they're all about performance here. I don't think they're all about performance, but I, but when you said do you think full inclusion is possible? I said, I think that's going to be one of[inaudible] I'm going to say right now I don't think full inclusion, I don't think total inclusion because those words are words that are already in the community and they're used, I call it comprehensive because, because I'm talking about something totally different than full or total talked about. Comprehensive, which includes social, the emotional, intellectual, the spiritual. It's different. It's a totally different guy. But I want to come back to this community. So you think it's very performance oriented here? I do. While that, okay. So I don't think that, right. I don't, I don't really think that, I do think there are people who are, are determined at performance. But for instance, we launched, uh, our, our company and bill quick talk, one of the first companies to come running to us and they were executives at that company was Google. Uh, and they were like, we want to do anything we can to help. These are executives there. And they were in the middle of a meeting with Samsung at the time, which was there were some problems going on with the android and they left that meeting. Why don't he had to go back? One of them had to go back, but he left the meeting to be a part of it. Um, uh, I been invited in by Facebook to speak to them about accessibility. Both Facebook and Google and apple have all radically changed their attitude about accessibility and have done a lot of, uh, software engineering and hardware engineering. Yeah. To try to make that, uh, go further. Uh, I think a lot of our volunteers for our programs have come from these companies. So I actually think, you know, I'm a big silicon valley proponent. I've been here since 93 and I was been here during the[inaudible]. I actually think that there that, that, that many times the terrible stories are told about this place, but I don't know, anywhere in the country or the world that has the success we've had with our programs. It's true. And the warriors invited our ie hoops in the earthquakes, invited our soccer program in. So, and I look at San Francisco and while I'm not as liberal as San Francisco is, these people in San Francisco inspire me. They will fight for trees. They will fight for gender, they will fight for water, they will fight for buildings. They will fight for low cost housing. I mean, I think we actually live in the one place that makes me think it's possible. A, that makes me go, these are people in the bay area that are really unique. Uh, and yes, people think, oh, it's just, there's, it's wealth and all that. That's it. That's not everybody here is not rich. Uh, and, and, but I think there is this heart that, that these companies have that are unlike any in the country. And it's one of the reasons why I believe it's possible. I actually think the intellectual strength of the Silicon Valley is what makes this possible. The, the capacity they have to, to, to tease out these issues of say ethics about is it right or is it wrong? I think these are people who can tease that out and go, you know what, I can invent something that, that's what I did. I go, go in and go, I can invent something that helps these kids. Uh, take a, take a step up. So I actually think it's possible. Also, when you look at states like Vermont, they have one of the greatest, uh, inclusive communities in schools and in their community. And then he stayed. I think they may be number one when you look at places like Lawrence, Kansas, than typically the number one special education university in the country is Lawrence gives the University of Kansas. So I think you've got a lot of places that, that are there, that are sitting there. One of the guys that want to have come on the, uh, uh, podcast, uh, uh, he, um, started out as a teacher, has become a ticket director and then in Atlanta. But he just, he has no special needs kids. He just made it his mission to try to get inclusion going. So I actually think that there are a lot of people who want to do it, but they don't necessarily have a philosophy. And so partly what I tried to do is go, what's the philosophy you can give to people that tells them here's how you make society more, both welcoming and inclusive. So that when apparent like me is faced with having a special needs kid, they don't necessarily freak out and go, my whole life is ended. The good thing happened to me. And I want you guys to tell me what you think about all this because I think silicon valley and the barrier's unique place, a great place for this to happen. And what happened to me when I was in Washington DC with my oldest was born is the head of genetics for the children's hospital in Washington. D C happened to decide to come down to the hospital. We were in Alexandria and he lived there, uh, and Algeria, Virginia and two to tell us and confirm that our son had down syndrome. He came in the hospital and was talking to me and I think I remember his name is Dr Sal. He came and he talked to me and he said, the first thing I want you to understand is this, you have a baby who happens to have down syndrome. That conversation was the conversation that set me on a course for inclusion. If I had had a doctor come to me and say, I'm sorry, you have a kid with downs syndrome. Yeah. It's completely different. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so that's why I have hope. That's why I go, I think it's, I just don't think there are that many people out there going, hey, I've got, I've got a vision. I've got a way, I've got a philosophy, a way to think about this. And a process to attack. Is that, is that the, did I, did I pursue,
Speaker 3:he did about Silicon Valley. Well, it's funny because, um, these, you shared those stories. I mean, as you know, you and I have been a part of all those, uh, all those, not all those things, but you know, working with the earthquakes and the warriors and the different, I mean I play soccer with a bunch of guys from Google and some of common joined and helped us with the soccer. So it's interesting because I think I'm, well one, I think that a lot of things you said I agree with and I, I see that and I've experienced that. I think for me, why I see the, the limiting factor with the whole performance thing is I just, I also at the same time see many people that tell me a man, because I talk a lot about ISACA. I try to get people involved. A lot of people I see, I can't do that. I've got too much to do. I've got too much to do at work or at school. We're just in a society. When I think, when I think of Silicon Valley in our society, we've got a lot of people who work so many hours and are so focused on performing at work, at school or whatever that they don't, they don't feel like they have the time to, to be involved. And so, but I think you, you definitely have one way over to your sidewalk.
Speaker 2:Well, when I was a little, when we were first, you know, in the community of people with special needs families, um, none of what exist today was around. Yeah. A UC Davis Mind Institute didn't exist. Right. That started because there were fathers who were doctors who were like, we got to find solutions. We got to understand where this comes from. Yeah. A cautious. So I think, you know, it always starts with a, with a seed and then the seed is planted and it grows and those seeds are planted and it grows. So my view on on silicon valley is it's a meritocracy. Yeah. Not as much performance. I do think people can, all human beings can be performance. And so it's a meritocracy. And what people need is they need to understand like Google, uh, I know help with hope technology school where you work to help them build their, a infrastructure for their web presence. Will, these are guys in Japan who are like, oh, we want to help somebody who is helping kids with special needs. So I think, I think there's groups who want to do it. What I want your thoughts on Jackson, cause I saw your look on your face when I was going through talking about silicon valley, talking about yeah, you heard the University of Kansas and that one don't seem to know like wasn't, where'd that come from? Just surprised me. Yeah. But when you're hearing all that you're younger and all that, you hear all that, what does that make you think? What, what
Speaker 4:I mean? I don't, I don't really know what to think besides, it just gives me hope. I think, um, a that all over the United States and in places that I wouldn't even expect, like not even, that's not even the epicenter of the new technology that's coming out. Um, like I think places like Kansas, I was the most, so I was surprised most about Vermont. I was like, what the heck? Like why, why, why Vermont of all places. But it just shows how, um, I think, uh, forces for good about with air regarding inclusion can happen anywhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, and I think what you get in Vermont, just to be fair is, and I'm not a Bernie Sanders, you know, acolyte or fan. Got It. But what you have in Vermont is the, is this societal vision that I think is a little different than other places have. It's a smaller state, but I think they have a sense of, we want to create a culture where nobody will fall behind.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I was just, I was, as we were talking about this whole thing, um, I thought of, uh, the story of, I mean when we talked about the earthquakes and we talk about it full inclusion and it changing a mindset and even connecting to this whole thing about performance. Um, you know, I remember sitting down when I sat down with, with uh, Jesse, the GM for earthquakes and we talked about ISACA and they, we've been building that relation. They wanted to bring it in more and get them, get their kids, their academy kids evolved. Well you just talked about about organizations that want to, that want to bring it in or that want to, you know, really find ways to help promote it. It was cool to see them in one, one, one discussion, one conversation go, wow, we can get all of our academy kids who are definitely, they're focused on those kids performing and getting to, you know, be professional players. So, you know, these are some of the top kids in the, and then in northern California. But they were like, wow, if we can get east soccer, uh, to be a part of what we do with our academy kids, we're going to build their character. We're going to teach them how to care about other kids. And that's going to be just as important in life for them because not all of them are going to become great soccer players, but they can become great people in terms of those relationships. And so it's interesting as we're talking about this, I'm going, yeah, there's an organization that right on a dime. We, they turned and they were like, hey, we want to do this every year. Have you come to the stadium, work with our kids. We want our kids to be able to be a part of this. So, I mean, that's just a,
Speaker 2:I think this is because there are individuals who understand that the majority of people who fail as great athletes in any sport fail because of what happens off the field. Yeah. And if you can't learn, uh, how to treat people in a way that is not condescending or dehumanizing. And you know, as an athlete, you're an athlete coming along and there is an arrogance that you develop because you feel you're better than other people because you're, you know, you're your showcase more than the average student that you're out there. You're part of a team that showcased more. And, um, I think what these people understand is that if you don't want to have a bunch of people walking around that don't care, I think Lebron James is a great illustration building a school and giving everybody a bike. I was like, why is it giving everybody a bike? And he talked about why a bike was so important to him that started for him when he was in high school, kid of a single mom. It's amazing who the guys become as a human being. Right? I think when you can give, let's say you take a kid in Palo Alto who's comes from a pretty family that can meet most of his financial needs. You know, not everybody in Palo Alto is super rich. I don't live there, but this is just this. Not that there's a lot of fables, but it's a tremendous high school. Yeah. If that kid can gain this awareness of people are people and I, that's why I think the world is cold and the country can get cold and all the stuff you see politically right now. I mean think about the stuff people are calling each other and things people are saying to each other. It's all dehumanizing. I because I don't agree with you. I'm going to dehumanize you as a person that trickles down. People with disabilities who can't defend themselves. And so I think really what we've done in our first section, cause we're gonna, we're gonna come back in a moment and get in a little more detail. What we've done in this first section is kind of lay out the groundwork for why inclusion is so important. In this next section we're going to go through the levels of inclusion, give you a few more ideas about that. And even maybe, you know, Jackson will talk to us a little bit about, uh, adaptive versus modified inclusion and how that takes place in education. How we can take the lessons of the classroom and maybe get those into families and society where people start to learn how, how to include. So we'll be back in
Speaker 1:[inaudible].