Innovating artistic expression through dance with Ivan Michael Blackstock

Ivan Michael Blackstock is an artist and creative director whose work has been performed in iconic venues across the world.

In this episode, Ivan explores the different roles he occupies in his work; how he uses choreography as expression and the processes behind his work, TRAPLORD, an Olivier Award-winning show that uses dance, theatre and spoken word to explore raw and confrontational themes of mental health and masculinity.

Instagram: @ivanmichaelblackstock

Website: Ivan Michael Blackstock | Cultural Innovator

Discover more about UAL Awarding Body qualifications.

Transcript

Matt: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the Teach, Inspire, Create podcast. I'm your host, Matt Moseley, Chief Examiner for Art and Design at UAL Awarding Body. Each episode, I speak to artists and creative industry leaders about [00:00:15] their experience of teaching and being taught, who or what inspires them, and we explore creativity in their work with the hope of showing you that there are infinite ways to be creative in the arts.

Matt: Today, my guest is Ivan Michael Blackstock.[00:00:30] He's an artist and creative director, whose work has been performed in iconic venues across the world. In this episode, I'm going to be talking to Ivan about the different roles he occupies in his work, how he uses [00:00:45] choreography as expression, and hear about the process behind his work, TRAPLORD. There is a transcript available for this episode. 

Matt: Please click the link in the episode description so you can read as you listen. [00:01:00] Just as a quick warning, this episode does include discussion of some adult themes that might not be suitable for younger listeners.

Matt: Welcome, Ivan. Thank you for joining us on the Teach, Inspire, Create podcast. How are you today?

Ivan: Very well, man. Thank you for inviting me, bro.

Matt: Great. Well, we normally start things off by kind of taking our interviewee all the way back to where [00:01:15] creativity first came into their consciousness or into their life. Is there a starting point for you?

Ivan: Well, everyone usually asks this question and I think it might have started in my mum's womb. And I would always say [00:01:30] creativity, and especially dance, has always been a part of my life. I can't really remember a point when it wasn't really.

Matt: Right. Yeah, yeah.

Ivan: What I remember started in South London between Peckham and Old Kent Road and MTV, [00:01:45] Michael Jackson, Bobby Brown, MC Hammer were like my idols.

Ivan: I think for me what I remember seeing was people that looked like me, doing something extraordinary and getting that feedback [00:02:00] and I remember dancing, doing my Michael Jackson moves, and my grandmother would say, yeah, do the Michael Jackson thing. I was like, yeah, do that, that moonwalker thing in church.

Ivan: And I don't know, maybe I felt a connection to what I was seeing on TV and I was like, okay, maybe [00:02:15] this is something that maybe I would want to carry on. And maybe not pursue at that moment because I was a child, you know, but it was something that I knew that I got a positive reaction from.

Matt: Yeah, was there something nice about that interaction, that sort of [00:02:30] support, that validation from people watching you move and dance?

Ivan: I've always felt also quite different as an adult. I realize I'm neurodivergent and the way I see the world is very different. So when I was [00:02:45] doing this thing, that was a thing where I remember I found some sort of connection to people. 

Matt: Yeah, yeah.

Ivan: I remember as a kid, I [00:03:00] really couldn't really put my words together. You know, I think there was a lot of ideas, thoughts, feelings rushing through my mind and my body. So I definitely felt that, yeah, moving was the best communication tool for me. And yeah, sometimes that could be a [00:03:15] little bit tricky growing up as an adolescent, because it could look quite wild just tapping on the table or moving your foot and looks like I'm not paying attention in class, but I think it was just how maybe I was [00:03:30] receiving and giving information. I was roughly about eight years old, my mum took me to a concert and it was this kind of band from America, and they were this boy band. All the young kids were like, ah, they're [00:03:45] amazing, and I remember that ‘what, they're in London? I can't wait to see them’. They came out, I remember I was like, hold on, that's my cousin Victoria dancing for them. So that was maybe another stamp of, okay, there's maybe someone I know, [00:04:00] that's actually on the stage with my favorite R&B group. 

Matt: To be so young and to realise that dance is actually a potential job, like a career. Did something kind of click with you that actually this could be something I could do long term?

Ivan: Not [00:04:15] until I left secondary school and tried my first course. So, I failed all my GCSEs. I was dealing with a lot of trouble at home, dealing with domestic violence from a [00:04:30] stepfather. Growing up, like, just with not much money and opportunities around.

Ivan: But again, the TV was this portal for me. And I remember seeing these rappers becoming… I remember watching MTV [00:04:45] Cribs moguls. I remember that word, like a mogul, and I was like, a mogul? What's a mogul? And I didn't really use the word entrepreneur at the time, but I just remember them having this record label, they have clothing lines, they're supporting artists and [00:05:00] putting their narrative and story into these other mediums.

Ivan: I'm like, I want to do that. So actually I studied music first because I had family members in the industry. So I felt that maybe that's the natural course of just going into that but I [00:05:15] found it really challenging because I wanted to go into music production, all of these kind of instrumental beats in my head and songs, but I actually couldn't get it out.

Ivan: Trying to put all of this stuff that's in my body into a computer and then work the computer to [00:05:30] then process what it is and it'll just struggle. So I remember I used to always dance around in the studio and someone said, ‘why don't you just study dance? I feel like you have a better pathway that way.’ So yeah, that's what I did.

Ivan: I kind of just [00:05:45] dropped out, um, and decided to do a late enrollment into Lewisham College. And then that was kind of the start of maybe taking dance a little bit more seriously.

Matt: It's so hard to make those decisions when you're at that age, isn't it?

Ivan: Yeah, totally. I [00:06:00] think I remember music and fashion was so big. And everything around that was, I don't know, maybe sports as well. 

Ivan: I remember football as a young black man, we used to say certain things. You can only be really like a rapper, drug dealer, or a footballer. [00:06:15] And that's actually, yeah, the kind of maybe three things I had on my table thinking, okay, I'll have a go for one of these things. And I kind of knew from an early age that if I do the drug dealing thing, that's not a good path.

Ivan: So I wasn't really that good at [00:06:30] football. I did try and I was just getting tackled and yeah, I couldn't read my body. I was a very small boy, so I used to just get broken all the time. So yeah it was the music. But I think, yeah, having those right people around you and those people encouraging you, saying, yeah, [00:06:45] that thing. 

Ivan: When I stepped back into really taking it seriously, yeah, I had this childlike euphoria again. And then I would definitely say, yeah, from about 17 onwards, that's when I was like, okay, let me sink my teeth into this and see [00:07:00] how far I can go.

Matt: And were you straight away devising and choreographing your own stuff? 

Ivan: Yeah I think I was doing it from early. I was devising dance routines for my family members in primary school, my mom and my [00:07:15] partner always laugh, but I actually created a group called KWA, Kids with Attitude, obviously like NWA. And yeah, that was, I remember we used to do… create songs and routines using the Fugees and [00:07:30] Lauren Hill and stuff like that. So yeah, I was always kind of dabbling into that creativity, I didn't know how to put it together. It was just like, let's just throw things together and see what happens. 

Matt: These are all quite complex [00:07:45] skills, but you were doing them from a very early age by the sounds of it. 

Ivan: Yeah, I think it just naturally comes with it when you are, maybe, in the world of the hip hop street dance world of things. Like ballet, [00:08:00] you have your teacher, you do these set movements, and then that's it. Contemporary dance might be slightly different, but if you see those kids in the playground, that's how I kind of started off. Even, I remember [00:08:15] after school, or I would meet up with my friends, we will just go next to a closed shop and use the shop window and just freestyle. [00:08:30] 

Matt: You're an artist and a choreographer. So, at what stage did you start to bring in some of the more conceptual ideas that you discuss in your work now?

Ivan: I think I started [00:08:45] after tasting a bit of vocational college understanding, not just throwing a random idea into the mix and say, ‘Oh, let's do a piece about aliens’. Why, you know?

Ivan: So yeah, when I started [00:09:00] competing in the choreographic competitions in house in school, but then I also got early mentorship by Jonzi D, who runs Breakin’ Convention, an International Hip Hop Theatre Festival, based at Sadler's Wells. So from that [00:09:15] point, I think I kind of had that mentorship, I could actually kind of go back to my schooling, English language and looking at English literature.

Ivan: And I think that what was kind of cool is that I can [00:09:30] actually bring all of these other elements, such as science, history, other art into the work. Maybe it came from, okay, let's do a theme about this. The art might have came from, let's customize the costume [00:09:45] and paint this logo on the costume. 

Matt: Yeah. Because as an artist, you're pulling in quite a lot of information from all sorts of different areas, aren't you? I mean, do you think it's important to kind of keep quite a, you know, an open mind to the world and try and absorb lots of different things or…? [00:10:00] 

Ivan:  I think we are all very different people, isn't it? So I think you can go from what they tell you at school, this is creative process, or you can sit into yourself more and try to [00:10:15] understand yourself and how you see the world.

Ivan: I had people around me. That reminded me about life, spirituality, how to speak to people and I kind of used that, actually, within [00:10:30] how I see the world, how I make my world. And I think at an early age I always wanted to create worlds, actually. I wanted people to step into the world I've created and be transformed in some shape or form.

Ivan: [00:10:45] And I think maybe that reminded me of Church, it reminded me of a play center. It reminded me of afterschool clubs. So that's where the energy I want to create. Just [00:11:00] try to connect with myself. Even still to this day, I feel like I'm still trying to understand what my creative process is and how I'm taking information.

Ivan: The internet is my, phew, and actually I [00:11:15] viral load. Most of the time I'm taking in information, most of the time. And then I take very long breaks on just sitting, pondering, cleaning out stuff. So it is kind of like my [00:11:30] own AI, but it's a little bit slower.

Matt: I think sometimes people kind of are on the internet aren't they looking at a lot of stuff and they're quite passive to that, it's just happening to them. But you're aware that this kind of viral downloading is happening and that you're going to then [00:11:45] pause that and use that information for something real.

Ivan: Even one of my productions, the way I composed the journey for the audience, was very much like how would they scroll on their phone? So [00:12:00] actually sometimes you, when you see a dance piece of work, they'll be reaching for another person's hand for a very long time. I was like, let's cut that. Like, how does it feel?

Ivan: Like how can I get to the point in 30 seconds? How can I get [00:12:15] to the point within 2 minutes 35, kind of like a song? So reason why I use that methodology because people's attentions has changed over time now.

Matt: Yeah.

Ivan: [00:12:30] So how can I somewhat mimic that? But actually the content and the information is maybe, might be a bit more resonant and maybe more relative to what is really happening.

Matt: That's really interesting. So you're essentially [00:12:45] evolving your approach to dance choreography to meet the type of audience member that maybe, maybe is interacting with the work.

Ivan: Yeah, I would say it's like MMA, Mixed martial arts, and it is about having this [00:13:00] maybe cross-disciplinary mix, multidisciplinary approach to things. Yeah my approach to building worlds, communicating has evolved over time for sure and it's maybe it's come from the world of hip hop. This kind of cross-pollinated style.

Matt: Well yeah, hip hop has changed massively over the last sort of two or three decades, hasn't it?

Ivan: Exactly. If I narrow it down to hip hop dance or hip hop movement, I feel we could be throwing in a lot more ideas [00:13:30] on sport, different types of sport, Capoeira or some of these other movements. You could see them in breakdancing, but now that was the late 70s, 80s, now we're in the [00:13:45] 2000 or whatever it is now, the 20-whatever.

Ivan: Cool, what, how are people using sport? Remember Bugs Bunny and all of these things? People used to throw cartoon ideas into that world. Now we're in the gaming, Fortnite, Call of Duty, [00:14:00] Grand Theft Auto, and yes, to a certain extent you can kind of see on the internet where people are mimicking these kind of NPC characters and I feel like, where is that in the dance now?

Matt: That's the sort of empowerment of being a [00:14:15] creative or having a creative process, isn't it? Is that you ultimately are able to take control of your world to a point and everything is usable potentially to inspire something, isn't it? And it's often those collisions of things that might seem [00:14:30] kind of quite disparate like, you say, maybe sports and art, but when you smash them together something really interesting always happens on the other side of it, doesn't it? 

Matt: What I was thinking about then was a couple of projects that you've put together. I mean, I'd really like to talk about TRAPLORD as a [00:14:45] as a concept. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Ivan: Hmm TRAPLORD. . . so TRAPLORD iis the never never land.

Matt: Okay.

Ivan: And I think especially for the [00:15:00] maybe, the performers and the people who devise it, myself and other people that are bringing this world to the audience. I think when we first started, and I'll say we [00:15:15] because it was, they are like, it's a family.

Ivan: But this was in 2015, I left my company that I started, and I was running for 10 years, and I was an associate artist at a very well known [00:15:30] theatre. But something just inside was like, this ain't it, and what I mean this wasn't it. It just felt like I wanted to tell, I don't know, stories of now and what I went through and stuff like that, [00:15:45] and I felt that the trajectory I was going on maybe just needed to change.

Ivan: But when I did do that change, I realised there's a lot of stuff maybe, I haven't confronted within myself. I actually just threw it into movement and dance, I didn't speak about [00:16:00] it. And that's maybe another thing with, maybe… dance is a beautiful thing. But there is, sometimes it doesn't go up to the head as much and sometimes we want to disconnect from the head and just be fully in the body and not think about the day to day [00:16:15] lives, our traumas, and what we went through.

Matt: It's escapism.

Ivan: Yeah, I was going into my 30s and this was in 2015, and I was just like, okay, I need to look at myself again and I think, these moments [00:16:30] happen in cycles. And I gathered some men I knew, some of them weren't in education, employment, or training. And my friend had an abandoned leisure center he was staying at, part of a guardianship scheme. 

Ivan: And he said, he pointed to [00:16:45] the basketball court and the squash court, he was like, ‘Here, this is yours. Just do whatever you want with it. You can come anytime you want’, and so I started gathering men together and I created a men's circle. It didn't have a name, it was just like cool, let's just come . . . And like it was again, going [00:17:00] back to the after school clubs thing because, yeah, centers are no longer for young men, but even for older men, you know, going into our 30s. It was like, okay, let me just create something. And that kind of became a thing where sometimes we [00:17:15] spoke and chilled, sometimes we did nothing. You know, we, I think some Caribbeans call it liming, and liming is just being, you know, you don't do nothing. You just go to their house and just be. 

Ivan: And then some of us started moving, we would put on a [00:17:30] track, some of us started rapping. And I just said, ‘hey, what you shared earlier last week, why don't you write about that?’ You're just rapping about nonsense, really, and it's just this other thing. 

Matt: Trying to get people to connect with the head, like you said.

Ivan: Yeah. 

Matt: Talk [00:17:45] about the things they're really thinking about.

Ivan: Definitely, so I kind of just brought some provocations in the room, brought some stuff out, yeah, images. So I put the idea of Rodin's Thinker, Lord of the Flies came into it. So actually the original name was Traplord of the Flies. [00:18:00] And yeah, after a while we made this work, you know, and I had an opportunity to perform something at a very small theatre in Essex.

Ivan: And I was like, oh, let's just do this here, and then I [00:18:15] invited everyone. So, with TRAPLORD, it's more of a feeling, more than it's a thing. TRAPLORD means many different things to people within, who participate in this

Matt: Yes, it's totally individualised to every single [00:18:30] member it's…

Ivan: Because it’s a slang word, but we've kind of made it something that it means something to us.

Ivan: And when we, when I was playing with the word of Traplord of the Flies, it was looking at Paradise Lost and the concept of the fall of man and how [00:18:45] come these young black men are these kind of angels but they've fallen so deep that they've forgotten who they are? And maybe we questioned, did they fall or were they pushed?

Ivan: And they fell so far, that all [00:19:00] their wings fell off and they kept on falling and they fell into shit. And now they think they're flies. So the way they move is different. Now, cause they've forgotten who they are, they're attracted to this false light. [00:19:15] 

Ivan: So it's this phone, it's these jewels, it's all of these kind of concepts and that's why they hang around the pig. So you will see a lot of these pig imageries, maybe Beelzebub of what represents in Lord of the Flies, but it was always about [00:19:30] again transformation and trying to remember who we are so we can fly like Peter Pan again and think happy thoughts.

Matt: So how was the process for you in terms of getting people on board with the project?

Ivan: Um, I think people trusted me [00:19:45] because I maybe was active in the community. So I was still teaching workshops, I used to run a charity event called Poverty Kicks, and it was about bringing these kind of dance stars from [00:20:00] UK and Europe, from the dance battle scene, from commercial scenes. 

Ivan: So we had MBE Kenrick Sandy, we had this kind of famous dance battler from France. We had this amazing Nigerian woman [00:20:15] doing Afro beats before it was, it's kind of, it's major hits now. So I feel like maybe I was already active in the community trying to, I don't know, share something that's maybe not really spoken about or shared about. 

Ivan: [00:20:30] So I feel like I had maybe, some people trusted in where I was taking it, but yeah, it was challenging at times because we're speaking about, knife crime, gun crime, domestic abuse, sexual abuse. [00:20:45] But I actually had to be the person that opened that door first. So actually, it was very risky for me, as well as sharing parts of myself. So I had to share parts that I would, I've never [00:21:00] spoken to anyone about. 

Matt: There's a lot of  vulnerability in all of that.

Ivan: Yeah, and I think that's what maybe I realised within the space, I just needed to maybe soften out the space a little bit and give them time to do so. It was [00:21:15] challenging because I'm not a registered or trained therapist. I don't deal with,like, pastoral care like that so I had to find help moving down the line. But at first I was brother, [00:21:30] bank, choreographer, manager.

Matt: I mean, it's a lot for you to take on, isn't it? But perhaps. In some ways, the lack of sort of formal training in that, is what made you, you know, more authentic in terms [00:21:45] of being able to host those conversations with people.

Ivan: Yeah, and you know, again, it was like the lost boys. Some of these guys had no father figure around in their life. That was majority of them. So even for me, I felt I'm still a kid, but I [00:22:00] had to kind of step up to the plate and try and understand what leadership was. Even though I was running a dance company beforehand, this was very different because it was just like let's just do some moves, let's just put this dance routine on. 

Matt: I was going to talk to you about how it [00:22:15] must have felt for you to come out of that quite structurally theatre experience where obviously you're delivering things to a deadline and then to this open space where there isn't a definite outcome, is there?

Ivan: Yeah. I [00:22:30] think after a while, the popularity grew, people want to see it, people want it. So then, after having this kind of incubation stage, it went into a place where, yeah, we started to share these [00:22:45] moments and I think some of the challenging things has been is I started TRAPLORD in a way to kind of go away from the norm, but you kind of get pulled back into that.

Matt: It's interesting. The [00:23:00] norm moves to meet TRAPLORD doesn't it, in a way it's sort of yeah…

Ivan: People are like is this your new piece like, is this gonna be in a theatrical production? You know, I started TRAPLORD in 2015, we officially did [00:23:15] official piece of presentation in 2022.

Matt: So it was a long journey, seven years.

Ivan: It was a long journey. Yeah, when TRAPLORD was starting to gain a bit of speed I was a bit like I need to take at least five years before I release this. And obviously it was a [00:23:30] bit longer than that, but maybe I wanted to take an approach of how maybe, the greats were taking like Madonna, Prince, Quincy, whoever, they'll just go away for a while and then just come back with an album.

Ivan: And I felt that, [00:23:45] especially with street dance and hip hop at the time because we've got a knack and a talent and a skill to generate work and ideas very quickly because it's the now. But yeah I just wanted to give it a bit of love, [00:24:00] massage it out and connect deeper with the people that also contributed to it. At first It was very much these young men, but then I started bringing more elders into it.

Ivan: I started bringing different genders to contribute, people from [00:24:15] different cultural and racial backgrounds. Because, yeah, at first it was, ‘yeah, let's talk about pain’. But then, it's where I always go in to. Let's look into transformation. I want to present this work and [00:24:30] get people that most probably have never lived your life and are able to, like, okay I get you.

Matt: Yeah, there's a sort of, there's a sort of celebratory thread that goes like..

Ivan: I'm, I'm still working on that. If I'm being honest, because if [00:24:45] anyone has seen TRAPLORD, it is very intense. Very intense. And I feel like I've, over time I've given, able to wore it down to where people don't, how can I say, walk out.[00:25:00]

Matt: Yeah.

Ivan: Cause the, the reason why I created the work. Was to really share these stories and tell these stories authentically. 

Matt: Yeah, they're not diminished in any way, you put it. It's all there on display, isn't it? 

Ivan: Yeah, and I think, you know, as you [00:25:15] mature, you find maybe more intellectual ways and other ways of telling this one thing.

Ivan: So over time I started bringing in other mediums, like spoken word, more pushing, more [00:25:30] rap, because it was more led by the body.

Matt: For [00:25:45] a student or someone listening to the podcast who is developing and devising some movement, some dance work now, how does someone go about getting a piece of work performed?

Ivan: The game has changed, so [00:26:00] you need to be in a space where you can be your authentic self. I still know choreographers, famous choreographers, that are still making work in their bedroom.

Matt: Yeah. 

Ivan: Because that's where they feel safe. I remember where I felt safe was my grandmother's living [00:26:15] room. So I remember I was, a lot of my stuff, even work that I would do for a big artist at the time, it was made in my grandmother's living room. I would say, build your emotional intelligence.

Matt: [00:26:30] Yeah.

Ivan: Because if you can deal with that motion, because that emotion is energy and motion, isn't it?

Ivan: So, some people, especially music artists, sometimes they can be very [00:26:45] smart and able to capture it and put it into this thing and make it transform people and transform them. And some artists, it's not again about money, reaching for people. It's all for you. And that's what maybe I've even [00:27:00] learnt as well. As a youngster, for a very long time, I was doing art for people because, I do this thing and you get a reaction from this piece of work, whoa. But I think that art is your heart, I believe.

Matt: Yeah so TRAPLORD[00:27:15] is your heart, kind of, in motion as it were and you mentioned obviously, sort of, breaking away from the norm and putting yourself in an uncomfortable position away from the industry that you got to know so well. So obviously when you put on [00:27:30] performances in theatres now, you mentioned a bit earlier about how you're able to adapt your work to kind of fit. Is there some sense of negotiation sometimes with a theatre space? Do you say, this is what we offer, and they… [00:27:45] 

Ivan: Okay, you're going into business. 

Matt: A little bit.

Ivan: I think that, yeah, so you have your art, and you believe in it, you're good. You put all these, how many, 10, 000 hours to it. And then the other side of it is [00:28:00] you need to get good at connecting with people, communicating with people, knowing what your value is, knowing what their value is.

Ivan: So actually that's been a journey for me because I always felt by myself, uh, pretty much a lone wolf. [00:28:15] And it is very important to understand business, marketing, like budgets, like how is your money going in and out? Especially marketing for us, as creatives because I still speak to [00:28:30] people and yeah, social media. But I remember before social media, I just want to put my… I want people to see my work. That's all I want to do.

Matt: Yeah. It's a platform to share, isn’t it?

Ivan: I just want to just get it out there. And yeah, I feel that we've got the biggest [00:28:45] stage right now and I feel people are still not using it. And also it's, we're not going back. It's forward motion.

Matt: It's not enough to just to be a choreographer these days. You also have to have an entrepreneurial spirit. You have to have the [00:29:00] resilience to kind of run a business. It's a very multifaceted thing, isn't it these days, to have a career as a creative?

Ivan: Yeah, and like I never really thought of myself as a dancer, choreographer, that's what people told me I am. Oh, you're a [00:29:15] dancer.

Ivan: Okay I, dance is only a piece. Dance is the thing that's maybe brought me here to speak to you, the vehicle. But I'm, that's why when people ask me, I'm like, I'm an artist, creative director, maybe. I [00:29:30] usually just feel things and I do them.

Matt: So can we just talk a little bit about what you're up to now?

Ivan: Yeah, with me, I'm in that place where I've been so active for a very long time.

Ivan: I'm [00:29:45] breathing air. I'm just observing, I'm being, I'm liming, and I have many ideas and thoughts and feelings I want to do. I feel like the new emerging technologies is very [00:30:00] exciting for me. And because I've dabbled that within TRAPLORD and other works I've curated, and I feel like that's where we're going.

Ivan: And I feel we're at a really interesting point at the moment where we can [00:30:15] change the world, and it doesn't have to be a dystopia. So, I'm trying to, maybe at this moment, not conquer the world anymore. I'm [00:30:30] trying to conquer myself. And that's where I'm at at the moment. It might be a moment. I'll be here within, like, a couple of months, a couple of weeks, a year, a couple of years.

Ivan: But I think that's where I'm at at the moment, because being a youngster, I felt like [00:30:45] I had nothing. And then at one point I felt like I had everything. And then when I age, I feel like I am nothing. I feel like what does the world need more? I don't [00:31:00] think it needs more of my work. It needs more people to find themselves.

Ivan: So, I feel like my next work might be that, to help people find themselves even more [00:31:15] and if we're kind of being like super obvious, it’s still to dance. I think that what I'm interested in, what I mentioned is finding this new form of expression, moving.I was speaking to a friend yesterday and we were speaking about, again, things like [00:31:30] Capoeira, Tai Chi, and for instance with Capoeira, and it's in this really interesting place because with Capoeira you have the dance of it, but on the other end you have combat.

Ivan: And then at the other end you have this free flow healing movement, [00:31:45] if you do it really slow, same as for Tai Chi. So where I'm at at the moment is can dance, especially with hip hop and street dance, can it go deeper?

Matt: I guess it goes back a little bit to what you were saying about, you know, [00:32:00] provocations. There's something, isn't there, about as an artist you have the opportunity to ask people questions that maybe get them to question themselves differently.[00:32:15]

Ivan: This year, we bought TRAPLORD on the road, we just did Factory International in Manchester. So there's been this, ah! And it always feels like an exorcism, doing TRALPRD. And I [00:32:30] think, yeah, it might be kind of cool for people, like, oh, I love this piece, the Olivier Award winning, and I'm revisiting my trauma every time I do it.

Matt: What does that mean to you, to win something like that?

Ivan: It was a very special moment. Very, very special moment. Was [00:32:45] I planning to get an Olivier Award? No. I was like, I'm nominated. On the day, did I think I was going to win? Yes. Because maybe at that point, I sat into myself and like, I busted my [00:33:00] arse for years.

Ivan: And no one in this theatre is telling this story. Would, do I deserve to win? Yes. Will I win? I don't know. Because I don't know, not too sure if they're brave enough. 

Matt: Yeah, yeah, that's [00:33:15] interesting. 

Ivan: You know, it's again, trap law can be very graphic and very intense. When I got on stage, was I nervous? No, that all dropped.

Ivan: And what does it mean? It means nothing.

Matt: That's what I [00:33:30] was interested in because I think in terms of what you've been saying, it validates and endorses exactly what you've been saying about just make the work that your heart's invested in, and then the rest of the world will either take notice or not.

Matt: But it's [00:33:45] lovely to be recognised and endorsed.

Ivan: When I'm dead and gone, I don't know how long my life is gonna be. It ain't gonna mean nothing. Oh, Ivan Michael Blackstock, the Olivier Award winner. No, it's like, how did [00:34:00] I affect people, how did I help people, how did I change people? How do I make people smile or see something within themselves? That's where it is.

Ivan: Maybe there's another side I don't know. Maybe there's a young black boy that looks exactly like me, that’s [00:34:15] going through the same similar thing and it's ah. Because I remember I used to look up to others as I mentioned from when we first started this, this chat. So. I don't know. I only know a piece of it.

Matt: I love the answer. Ivan, [00:34:30] amazing. It's been absolutely wicked. I'm just trying to process all the things you said. So we always end our podcast with asking our interviewee if they have a provocation they could set to our listeners, something to think about or a [00:34:45] call to action. Do you have anything that you could share?

Ivan: Someone said this to me and I was just like, what? And I remember I was very upset. I needed help, this person said to me, sit [00:35:00] quietly and be. Just sit quietly. No distractions. Sit quietly. There's so much noise right now from everywhere, and I think we don't do that enough. [00:35:15] Especially now it's about the culture of winning, more, money. How many followers? Blah, blah, blah. This, this, this, and all of my ideas. If you want to really understand my creative process, that's what I do. [00:35:30] I sit. I may be taking so much, and then after I just slowly wait for the wind, the water. The water is my tears. The wind is these other thoughts. The [00:35:45] fire of, like, passion, anger.

Ivan: So I feel like we need to learn to just sit and I think all of those answers come. So I think it's about quiet in the mind [00:36:00] and sometimes the body is just slowing down so you can hear those.

Matt: Thank you. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take your permission to be still later. Have a little bit of time to think about that. I think that's something I certainly haven't done enough of. [00:36:15] Thank you very much.

Matt: Thank you.

Matt: Thank you for listening to this episode of Teach, Inspire, Create. Massive thank you to Ivan. So interesting to hear about his [00:36:30] process of developing and devising choreography and how he communicates ideas and concepts through movement. If you want to know more about Ivan and his work, you can go to his website, IvanMichaelBlackstock.com. And you can follow him at [00:36:45] Ivan Michael Blackstock on Instagram. You can find links to these in our episode description. 

Matt: Really hope you're enjoying the podcast. Please do subscribe and if you'd like, share with a friend. Please rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts, [00:37:00] as it helps us to understand what you think of the show. Thanks for listening and until next time, take care.