Episode 22 - 🎙️ Demystifying Trusts

In this episode, Dave Wallace sits down with Cavendish Ware advisers Mat Bonney and Jenny Earl to unravel one of the most misunderstood areas of financial planning: trusts.

What begins as Dave’s personal curiosity quickly turns into a clear and engaging masterclass on how trusts work, why they exist, and how they can protect and preserve wealth across generations.

Mat and Jenny explain the origins of trusts — dating back to the Crusades, when knights transferred their land to trusted friends while away at war — and show how these same principles of protection, control, and legacy still apply today.

Listeners learn how trusts can help families:

• Control when and how money is used, such as for education or property purchases.
• Protect assets from divorce, bankruptcy, or mismanagement.
• Reduce inheritance tax exposure through strategic lifetime gifting.
• Preserve wealth across generations by keeping assets outside of estates.

Mat uses a vivid “river and island” analogy to illustrate how a trust acts as a legally separate entity, bridging the gap between giver and beneficiary — ensuring that wealth flows at the right time and to the right people.

Jenny adds practical insights on different types of trusts, how to set them up, and the responsibilities of trustees, stressing the importance of professional advice and long-term planning.

By the end of the conversation, what once seemed complex feels logical, even empowering — a reminder that trusts aren’t just for the wealthy, but for anyone who wants to plan wisely and provide for future generations.

“It’s about the right money, in the right hands, at the right time.” — Jenny Earl

Transcript

Dave: 0:00

Welcome to today's show. And today we have a real focus on an area that I'm as a client of Cavendishware very interested in, and that's trust. So joining us, we have Matt Ponnie and Jenny Earl, both of who are advisors with Cavendishware, and they're gonna help demystify what on earth trusts are for me because there's something I'm interested in, but don't know enough about. So uh Matt, Jenny, welcome to the show. I'm really looking forward to this. You wanna just start with a a tiny introduction to yourselves and then um maybe Matt, if you could start by telling us what a trust is.

Mat: 0:45

Sounds good. Sounds good. Thanks, Dave. Um yeah, great, great, great to be on today with you um and to talk and to talk this through. Um so I'm I'm an advisor. Um I've been I've been looking after clients for now the better part of 10, 11 years, I think it is. Um been in the industry longer than that, doing other things. Um but essentially been been advising and looking after families since about 2015, 2016 sort of time. Um and lovers. Um Jenny, so um if you could Yeah, of course.

Jenny : 1:25

Um yeah, so I'm Jenny. I've um yeah, been in the industry for about 15 years, and I've been working at Hambishware since 2014, so long time, um, and have been advising at Hamburgeware since 2070. So yeah, and like Matt, I do really enjoy it and I love the difference that our job makes for people's lives.

Dave: 1:45

Fantastic. Well, you're gonna make a big difference to me today because you're gonna help me with trust. So, as I say, Matt, could we start by you just telling us briefly what a trust is?

Mat: 1:58

Absolutely. So I think I think for me, um to to think about it a couple of ways. Technically, technically, a trust is a legal agreement. Um, a bit like you might have a company or a business, a company or a business that has a legal agreement around it, it's set up, it's registered somewhere, um, it can it can hold you know assets or or take revenue, that kind of thing. A business can or a company can. A trust is a little bit the same. It's it's a legal agreement between a number of different parties um that is in essence a way of owning and controlling assets. Um that's the kind of, I suppose, technical technical view on it for me. Um more anecdotally, a lot of us have heard of trusts. It might be, as you say, a bit of a mysterious sort of nebulous concept. Um, but this it's it's in another way of thinking about it, this legal agreement is just a way of people holding and controlling and managing money. Um, could be family money, could be other money, but it's it's that's but to me, that's in its simplest form what it what a trust is.

Dave: 3:14

Fantastic. So, Jenny, I don't know if you've got anything to add to that.

Jenny : 3:18

Um, no, I mean that I think a very complicated topic very well, because it is a complicated topic. So um, you know, a trust and the key elements of kind of Matt Distances the set of us, so someone that creates the trust and sets up the trust. Um, trustee is, you know, the individual who's responsible for managing that trust and making sure that set of shoulders fulfill in the beneficiary benefits of the trust. So absolutely.

Dave: 3:44

Fantastic. I mean, I'm immediately I I my brain is starting to fizz already because it immediately feels like it it's sort of a way of creating programmable money, shall we say. So a way of kind of controlling money in a in a sort of ordered way. Now, one of the things that uh you mentioned to me is that trusts have got quite a long history. So, I mean, I think when people hear about them, they kind of assume they're they're they're probably quite newfangled in terms of you know what what they do and how they do, but uh the history of them kind of goes back quite a long way, doesn't it?

Jenny : 4:21

Absolutely, yes. The trusts kind of trace back to um medieval England, so that's the crusades, where um knights would transfer their land to trusted uh friends to manage whilst they were away fighting. So that's kind of the origin of the trust.

Dave: 4:38

Well, so I mean, so these the so going back to the times of the crusades, I mean that's that's quite astounding to me that uh actually at that point people were sort of worrying about like mm how they kind of protected their assets, weren't they, when they went off to went off to fright the Crusades. I mean, I guess there was no certainty that they would come back. So, Matt, have you got anything sort of around that history in terms of sort of how things were set up?

Mat: 5:11

Um I well, so I just love the idea. I love the idea. It's it's if you were at that time, you would probably hate it. But to go off and, you know, do your best to defend and the country and you know go on these sort of exploits and then come back to find that um well somebody else was living in your house and using your horses and that was it. They're sort of it it's that's land adapted to themselves and and on we go. Um and and I think it it was very much it was very much about going, okay, well, if I if I'm away, I don't want to come back and not have this stuff around anymore. Or so you know that that's sort of the control of of that that those assets, the land. Um, or indeed, if I've if something the worst has happened while I'm away, what's gonna happen to my property and where where does it go from there? You know, because it it it loses an owner, if you will, and so does it literally just end up in random hands for you know for whoever. Um so I think I think the whole idea was was setting up a a structure that almost no matter what what the outcome, what whatever happened, this this asset that that was yours, um that you want to make sure goes to the right people or or remains in place for as long as possible, um is done in in the right way and in a way that is is actually quite quite legally protected. And I think I was thinking about this this morning. Actually, in Britain we've got, you know, for all of our perceived faults, we've actually got quite a good um legal and regulatory, I don't know, framework or or history. Um and you know, you we're often upheld in in even with the stock markets, you know, as as a place that is actually quite strong on its on its legal and and regulation um of companies and and and that sort of thing. And and trusts are the same. It's it's they're embedded in this long history of actually law and order, if you will.

Dave: 7:26

I I mean it is it's really interesting because you know, in a way, actually thinking about knights going off to to fight the crusades helps me kind of understand the reason that you would have a trust. But I guess, you know, we live in a modern age now where you you know I I as a as a client of Cavendish, I'm not going off to fight in the Crusades. And I guess the question is is is why would you use a trust now?

Jenny : 7:57

Yeah, I mean, even now, it's it's well even then and and now it's all about kind of maintaining that control and um you know the protection of the family money or land or whatever that asset might be. It's kind of making sure that the right money gets passed to the right hands at the right time.

Dave: 8:18

I and I mean I guess that's a really important point, is you know, this is about like going back to that idea of programmable money. This is not just about protecting the assets, it's also about controlling the assets. So, you know, I guess when you think about trust, um if you do put something in trust, you can set up controls around that, can't you? So people can only then access the money at certain points. Yeah, is that right?

Mat: 8:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. So I think I think for me, if if we if we put a particular lens around this of you've you've accumulated money, um, and you want that money to to to last for you know the future generations, children, grandchildren, that that sort of thing. Um and you know, they say they say that large amounts of wealth can be lost in in three generations, you know. It's you have a generation that builds it. A generation as a for a day.

Dave: 9:25

If I haven't met my children, they're already uh I think it were down to one generation, yeah. Lost in one generation.

Mat: 9:33

Um and um and yeah, and I think I think there's there's there's a number of different threads that sit around that. It's it's the first is that for many people, um you know, if we're thinking about this this concept of legacy, there's two, I suppose, two things to think about. One is you might want to pass legacy on during your lifetime. So in Cavendish Ware, we'll often talk to clients about that can be incredibly rewarding. And actually, for many people, if you've got that excess, excess capital, that excess money um that you you feel and and that we can we can show that you can afford to give away, um, making sure that you're well looked after, you've got a the rest of your life still to live, so you don't want to give too much. But you know, let's let let's imagine we've set aside some money that can be gifted or held for the next generation. Um some people might be actually quite uncomfortable literally just writing a check to their children, as you say. You haven't met my kids, it'll be gone in a day. Or who knows what. We won't ask. Um, so I think I think that's that's sort of one side of it. Um, so during your lifetime, giving with a warm hand rather than a cold hand.

Dave: 10:52

Uh that's really I mean it's really interesting. So I mean I I'm when I sort of think about that, so that you know, if you think about uh passing money down the generations, uh you've got the seven-year rule, haven't you? Yeah, in terms of you know the ability to sort of put money somewhere, and then if you survive seven years, then that is inheritance uh tax-free. But if it goes into a trust, it means that you can define when the the the you you know potential your children get access or other people get access to that money. Is that is that right?

Jenny : 11:31

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So you can so as that kind of said, if you're kind of a gifting with a warm hand, which is a great phrase, and it means that you can you know see the benefit from that. So it might be that you don't want an 18-year-old to access it, or it might be that you want somebody to access it to buy a property or for potentially grandchildren's school fees and things like that. It means that you can actually see the benefits of those traps as well.

Dave: 11:56

Well, and I I I sort of think about my own circumstances. So I've got five kids, you know, their ages ranging over a decade. And um, you know, I guess if I think about them, what you'd want is as you say, like uh a deposit on a house, for instance, like them having access to the money when that kind of happens, yeah. It gives me some control, as you say, rather than just sort of writing out a check and then handing it over and then hoping for the best. Um Absolutely.

Mat: 12:29

So I've got so I think as a anecdotally, anecdotally, as I what I think I think quite a good story around that, is um I've I've I've been working with the clients over the last couple of years where we've we've done literally that, so we've set aside some money um that's gone into trust. Um if you think about what so going back to where we started, what is a trust? A trust is this sort of it's this legal agreement that kind of stands on its own. Um and the way that I might imagine that is if you've got a river, to briefly paint a mental picture, if you've got a river, um on say the left-hand bank, you've got some individuals that might be yourself with your cash that you've built up in your lifetime. On the other side of the river, on the other bank, you've got these beneficiaries that you might want to give that money to for a house, education costs, or whatever it might be. And you want to do that in the right way and at the right time. The trust sits separate to all of those people. So the trust is like an island that's in the middle of the river. And as a settler, so the one that's gifting the money into the trust, because it is a gift, I'll come on to that in a second, you pass that money from you on the left-hand bank to this new bit of land legally owned in its own right, in the middle, called a trust. Now, as a settler, you can be a trustee. So the trustees are the owners of this island. Um, you might have other people that are trustees or owners of this island, could be the beneficiaries as well. So beneficiaries can be trustees as well. Um, but it's the the idea is that it sits separate to all of these people on its own. Um and then at some stage, as a trustee, as the owner of this island and the assets that are on it, you can make a decision of when that money is then sent onward to the other side of the river, onto the other bank, to those beneficiaries. So it's that point that you go, okay, I've got pick a figure, 200 grand, 500 grand, whatever it might be, and I send it to the island. That's a gift. So that point that you send that money into the trust, that's your gift. So instead of writing out that check to the kids, you've written your uh gift, your check to the trust. So this client that I've been working for with, we um we gifted money into the trust back in 2022. So 2022 is when the seven-year clock started.

Dave: 15:20

Right, right, right.

Mat: 15:21

So set aside a few hundred thousand pounds into the trust, settled it into the trust. That's the point that that that the seven-year clock started. So that money falls off of their estate um in 2029. And we just started a discussion about with this money, do we, and this is this is to your point, the programmable bit of it, do we start to use some of that money now towards say university costs? Kids are starting to think about going to university. Um, or actually, do we keep it for things later on, like houses? You know, so you've got children that are sort of 18, 19, 20, starting to get through some of these things. Um they're not buying houses yet. There's money there to buy a house, but they're in you, they you know, you want your kids to work out really where they want to be before you commit to something like buying a house. So there's it's it's it's giving an opportunity to make a gift, to shift that money out of your inheritance tax calculation. And then at some point, because these trusts, the trustees have full discretion over when this happens. You can't have a child come to you and go, as long as it's a discretionary trust, um, you can't have a child come to you and go, Oh, I'll have my money, please. Because as trustees, you can go, well, no, not yet. No. We'll give that to you when we all agree the time is right.

Jenny : 16:53

Willing the ball to trust that the settlers that have set out that that's fine.

Dave: 16:58

So that I mean, Matt, I love that because it kind of really helps me understand mentally what's going on. But in that example, can you just explain? Like, if I the the you've got the seven-year rule kind of which is kicking in, if I want to get money out of the trust before the seven years up, what are the tax implications of that? Um just so you you know, I I understand.

Mat: 17:27

Yep. Um, so that can depend on how the money comes out the trust. Um I'm going to try not put anybody to sleep. Um money goes into the trust, seven year clock starts. You've then got a number of ways of getting the money out of the trust. Um, I think principally you've got three options. One is you just you pay the capital out. Absolutely. It's like it's almost like re-gifting the money out of the trust to the beneficiary. And that moves to them. It's the the trustees, so you as a trustee, you write a check to the beneficiary and you say, here we go, here's your hundred grand. Um, that's a that's a a capital assignment out of the trust to the beneficiary. Um, there's actually very little tax implication with that, certainly in the first 10 years of the trust. Okay, these trusts go through 10-year anniversaries. Let's not get stuck in too many weeds here, but after the first 10 years, there might be little bits of um tax that you pay on that kind of capital exit from the trust. You can loan the money out of the trust. Um, it's it's largely best practice. Um, it can be a little bit tricky if it's for a house purchase because a lot of lenders will view a loan from the trust as a sort of second charge, if you will, against the property. Um but in in for anything else, it's actually a really effective and and highly advised way of moving the money out of the trust. No real tax implications for that, as such. Um or you can pay it out as income. Um if you pay it out as income, you get into a bit of a world of paying it net of 45% tax, and then beneficiaries have to make tax reclaims and and that kind of thing. So I think principally money comes out of the trust at any point after you've gifted it. Um after the first 10 years, there might be some additional tax considerations. Um, but certainly in the first 10 years, very, very little. Um, and it's probably gonna be just assign the capital out or loan the money out to the beneficiaries.

Dave: 19:46

Fantastic. No, it's really, really good to understand that.

Mat: 19:50

Do you have anything to add to that, Jen?

Jenny : 19:52

Uh no, I'd just say the only thing would be um just to complicate matters. Um, there are different types of trusts. So um, as Matt mentioned, um, you know, the tenure rule that's around discretionary trust. So it is dependent on the type of trust that you do have at that spine. So whether it's a fair trust or a discretionary trust, which we won't go into today, and obviously your advisor will go into a lot more details, but there are additional things that that might need to be thought about, and that's why the trustees do have that legal responsibility. And there are legal reporting and tact reporting and things like that, that that may be an issue for trustees to. I don't know.

Dave: 20:30

So the you you make a really good point there that if people are interested in trusts, I think talk to your advisor very definitely because they can go into a lot more detail about your individual circumstances. So I'm I'm I'm interested in how you set a trust up. Um, you know, because I I guess in my head I I sort of feel it's quite a complicated process. Um, you know, so I I just wondered, like, if you can explain, you you you've mentioned settlers and beneficiaries and trustees. Can you just talk about the setup and then who these people are? You know, just the the definitions, I guess, around it, Jenny, maybe.

Jenny : 21:13

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so there are, as I kind of said before, a lot of different types of trusts. So whether you're doing a trust for inheritance planning, for example, or you might be doing a life assurance trust, which is around, for example, maybe a the joint life, step and death policy. Um, it that will depend on the type of trust that you have. So let's say, for example, that you were looking at um, so I hope you don't mind if I use you as an example.

Dave: 21:39

No, no, no, please don't.

Jenny : 21:41

So you've got a um what's called a whole of life policy, a joint life, set, and debt. So that means that on the last of you or your wife pass away, we um you have a life assurance policy which will pay out things for trust. Um the which means that you and your wife are the settlers of of. That trust and the life insurance company that will pay the money on your bus on the second of you bus into the trust. The trustees are the individuals that the road have chosen, which are obviously your children in this situation as well. So they are the ones that are will be responsible if they decide to link it within the trust. There might be some you know tax reporting, or they might decide to pay doubt when money's going to wave, and as Matt said, it probably wouldn't be any at that point. And then you've also then got the beneficiaries, which as Matt said as well, they can be the same as the trustees. Um so again, in a situation for children. Your children can then choose to your children can then choose to use that money to either pay the inheritance cuts um on your passing, or they can use that money to leave within the trust and pay for other things in the future if they want to as well. The trust gives them a lot of different options around that and also means that they can kind of grow and use the money when when they need it rather than just have to find a home for that money thing.

Dave: 23:07

Very that's very interesting. I mean, thank you. Because I think that that for me kind of clears up it does, it's actually not that complicated when you listen to you explain it. So um Matt Matt, maybe you could talk a bit about the trustees' responsibilities, because um, I'm kind of guessing you set up a trust and that that may not be the end of it. There are certain things that you have to do.

Mat: 23:32

Yes. Um, yes. So so to be a trustee, um, and and it it it it can sound big and scary when I say this, but to to I I don't think it is as big and scary as it might sound. But to be a trustee, um, it comes with some legal responsibility. Um so if you consider uh our again, our analogy, you've you've got this island in the middle of the river, somebody needs to own that land, somebody needs to own that asset, and that is the trustees. So the trustees are set out in the trust deed. So when you when you set up a trust, whether it's the sort of life insurance trust or a lifetime trust that you're gifting money, somebody writes out a trusteed, usually a legal party solicitor or a legal partner does that, you write out this trusteed, and the trusteed sets out who are the trustees, um, who are the beneficiaries, and what the trustees are able to do. And as trustees, if there's assets that that trust is holding, you effectively own them. So as a trustee, you have to look after those assets, you have to steward them. In some respects, you could almost have the trustee of a of a charity type of a hat on. You know, imagine a charity that's got assets, and you have to look after um those assets with that mindset of everything that this trust holds is for the benefit of the beneficiaries. So any decision that we take has to be in the best interests of the beneficiaries. Um and obviously to to be in the best interests of the beneficiaries, I think that's going to cover a whole sort of ski piece of things. Um, but for me, that sits around what what you're owning and how you're owning it. Um and a lot of this is guided by something called the Trustee Act 2000. Um but I'm reading for you, Dave. Enjoy.

Dave: 25:48

My ADHD brain is never going there, so which is why I rely on advisors.

Mat: 25:54

Well, and and I mean to to literally to distill that down, it's as as trustees, if if unless unless you're sort of qualified, you should take advice. That's what the act says. Um not to hold too much cash. So the cash that you hold is for specific goals and and purposes. Other than that, you should have it invested. Um and when you invest it, it should be invested such that it's well diversified across multiple asset classes so that you are minimizing risks for this money that is in the best interest of the beneficiaries. Um I suppose, I suppose that's you know, that would be it. As a trustee, you're you're risk managing this this money for beneficiaries. So it's it's it's taking advice is is really really key around that. Um because I think I think when when we talk to people about risk, it's it's you know, it's not just if it's going to be invested, the up and downiness of it, the volatility of those investments, um, you're accepting some volatility to protect against inflation. You know, if this is long-term family money, we can't have it sitting in cash such that inflation erodes the purchasing power of it for those long-term beneficiaries. Um, so it's it's thinking around these things as a trustee um with the right partners in place, advisors, legal partners, accountants. Um so so reporting is really important. Um the trust has to be registered on the the um uh HMRC's trust registration service, TRS. Um if if it's if it's producing income within the trust investments, those those need to be reported and and taxed accordingly. Um so these are the sort of I think for me, the headlines of the trustee responsibilities. Um there's all sorts of nitty-gritty around that, but actually if you step back uh in a sort of fancy term, we would call it a fiduciary responsibility. You're just making sure that this money is stewarded, is shepherded for your beneficiaries that that you're holding it for.

Dave: 28:11

Well, very interesting. Very I I mean I I sort of, again, from my own sort of from my own sort of thinking about trust, they they sound complicated. I guess that's a worry that other people would have around it. But it does sound, you know, I go go back to this point of everything else aside, like being able to have and exert some control over money um down the sort of bloodline to future generations, maybe something that people are really looking to do. And it sounds like trusts are a a superb way to do that.

Mat: 28:48

Absolutely.

Dave: 28:49

Do you when you talk to clients? Are there any other worries that people have around trusts when you're sort of uh discussing them with them?

Jenny : 28:58

Yeah, I mean, complications, as you mentioned at the beginning, I think is is the main um that's the main one that I've found that people are concerned about, Matt. Don't you agree? Yeah. Yeah. Um, but as you said, Dave, it's it's if you explain in in simple terms why a trust is needed in certain situations and what the benefits are, such as you know, it's pre-planned, you're protecting that money, it's outside of your estate after a certain amount of time, and you know exactly where that money is then going. So it's it's doing exactly what you want it to do. Um the trustees are following those writers for you. But I think that kind of hopefully eradicates some of those concerns and the complications from the beginning. So there are other things, um, such as costs. There are costs involved with SELP trusts, especially as Matt mentioned, the fact that we often partner with other other um accountants or legal partners with things, there are fees involved in that. There are fees involved with SMEAP trust. So it's it's so much like we're getting to know all the information and the feed around before anything is with us. Um they're not as high as some people think, um, well then I guess they're higher than other people think. So um, but you've also got to think about the pretension savings and why you're doing that first. If you're setting up a trust to look at the inheritor stats and to look at your planning for the seven-year rules and things like that, and you're removing at last 120,000 or 500,000, whatever that figure might be after your state up in seven years, but actually the costs involved are probably minimal compared to the 40% of the savings. But you've got to still be doing a trust for the right reasons, and it's definitely really important that every client, SFTR, the plus understands that's that's really interesting.

Dave: 30:55

I mean, thank you so much, both of you, because I think you know what you've done is is really demystified them. I think, Matt, your um I think your explanation of the river and the island, I think is hugely helpful. Uh, as is actually the history, um, Jenny, in terms of you know, where these came from, because I think like so much of what we do or think about in terms of our money, we need stories and pictures in our heads which help us all make sense of these things. So you, you know, I I certainly um feel like I understand them a lot more. So thank you both so much for kind of spending time. Are there any last things that you wanted to to mention at all?

Mat: 31:38

Yeah, I think um you just before we got into that section, you mentioned that sort of the the bloodline planning bit of it. Um and something that we talk about a lot around that sort of bloodline planning is life life can throw all sorts of curveballs that you know you just you just don't necessarily see coming. Um, and that's where that this idea of that that sort of separately owned and and pre-programmable money is is is so key because what are the what are the things that for for money that's being set aside for later generations of the family, what are the things that can disrupt the bloodline uh flow of this legacy? Um typically it's divorce, divorce is a big one, really concerns people with passing money on. Um and by having money in the trust, it really helps to protect that money from being sort of split off in a family split. Um bankruptcy. So it's it's if you've passed money on to the kids, if they if if it's just sort of that check's being written to them and they've got it in their bank account, and they've say they've started a business and that business fails, or or personal bankruptcy for whatever reason, mismanagement of their money, again that legacy can that the bloodline of that that money can go off to creditors. Um and I think the last one that's that people don't always realize is an idea of what what we would call generational inheritance tax. So you could again you could write a check to your to your kids, and they could bank that money, it becomes part of their estate. So from HMRC's perspective, if you survive the seven years, it leaves your estate, Dave, but it aggregates with the kids' estates, and if they eventually grow that money, grow their asset base, and and you know, on on then their death for their children, there's a second round of inheritance tax on that money that you've gifted to them. Whereas the trust in the middle of the river keeps it segregated from all of that, so it's outside of their estate as well. The trust is this thing that keeps the money outside of your estate, keeps the money outside of their estate. You use things like if they want money from it, you loan it so that it's a credit back to the trust. And all of those little mechanisms that that we sort of that we work around are the things that help to protect in in you know a side swipe of life through a divorce or a bankruptcy or or an early death or you know whatever whatever it might be. Um so it's it's really powerful in terms of safeguarding that legacy and making sure that actually it is preserved for the downstream to generations downstream.

Dave: 34:49

Very interesting. Very interesting. Any last thoughts, Jenny?

Jenny : 34:54

Uh no, I think kind of exactly what Matt said. It's it's all about planning, effectively. So if you a trust is multi-generational planning if it's done in the right way. So the the loan within a trust is an amazing element to a trust, definitely. Um, as Matt's at the beginning, there are some things that don't work with it, such as mortgages and what's it counts as second credit and things. So that that part, unfortunately, um doesn't quite work as well. But the majority of the time, the rest of it, it works really well. And if you set it up, again, kind of going back to the project at the right time for the right hand, the right money, and it works really well. If everyone's clear on what the trustee responsibilities are, and whether that be pay for a house, education, metaphor, whatever that might be, it a trust is definitely something that can help multi-generations and keep the money within the family.

Dave: 35:50

Fantastic. Well, listen, thank you both. It sounds like the the um what you have to do is kind of go in with your eyes wide open, but also definitely talk to an advisor. So don't go on the internet and ask Chat GPT and uh don't do that.

Mat: 36:10

Please don't do that.

Dave: 36:12

Fantastic. Thank you so much, both of you.

Mat: 36:15

Very welcome, Dave. It was great to chat today.