Episode 24 - Neurodiversity and money

In this special episode, the roles are reversed as Adrian takes the interviewer’s seat to speak with Dave about a subject that is both deeply personal and increasingly relevant: neurodiversity, late ADHD diagnosis, and the profound impact this can have on our relationship with money.

Dave reflects on being diagnosed with ADHD later in life, prompted initially by his children’s experiences and a growing realisation that many lifelong patterns finally had an explanation. What follows is a candid discussion of how neurodiversity shapes how people process information, manage attention, experience boredom, and engage with complex topics such as finance, risk, and long-term planning.

Together, Adrian and Dave explore:

• What neurodiversity really means, and why it is neurological rather than psychological
• How ADHD can manifest in adulthood, from hyperfocus and creativity to difficulty with documents, money, and future planning
• The hidden risks neurodiverse individuals can face in financial decision-making, particularly around trust and complexity
• Why traditional financial advice frameworks often fail to capture people’s true relationship with money
• How advisers can communicate more effectively by adapting how information is presented, rather than assuming one size fits all
• The growing role of AI in financial understanding, and why human oversight remains essential

The conversation also looks forward, asking how AI could help bridge gaps in financial literacy and accessibility, especially for those who struggle with conventional formats, while warning against blind reliance on automated advice.

Above all, this episode is about understanding brains, not labelling them, and recognising that neurodiversity is not a weakness but often a source of insight, creativity, and commercial instinct. For Dave, diagnosis became “a key unlocking the brain” — and a catalyst for healthier relationships with money, family, and self-understanding.

This is a thoughtful, honest episode for anyone interested in neurodiversity, financial well-being, and the future of advice in an AI-enabled world.

Transcript

Dave Wallace 0:00

Welcome to today's episode. And this one is a special episode because uh Adrian and I are swapping places. Adrian's actually going to be doing the interviewing. So so Adrian, welcome to the show. I I hope you're gonna be okay in uh the hot seat. I mean, I'm feeling slightly nervous about being the uh the the uh the the interview today.

Adrian Ware 0:23

So uh but you know it's a hot seat to take over from, Dave. So uh let's see where we go. Um yeah, the reason we're doing this for those listening is um on the subject of neurodiversity, Dave. You were sort of diagnosed with this very late in life, um uh literally last year, I I believe. Um and it just r really fascinated fascinated me in terms of the conversations that we have had around that diagnosis and the implications for you, which I think uh sort of stretches out probably to many people that the the that that we deal with about the impact on it on your life and how it interrelates with financial matters generally and and and your interaction with with with money and all things money. Um so yeah, I mean I I I was probably the first place to start is well just make sure everybody's is is comfortable with what we mean by neurodiversity. Um I mean I I I I think I'll I'll I'll put this one out there, Dave, that the whole concept of neurodiversity was was trying to move away from this sort of feeling that you know there are those people that are deemed normal, and then anybody else was therefore in some form subnormal through the way that their brain works, and that stretches into you know autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and a whole panel of things, and recognising that rather than there being this this previous sort of way of oh, it's a problem we've got to fix, it's a spectrum. Most people are probably somewhere on that spectrum, and it's just seeing the seeing the world through a different lens in terms of how you uh absorb, learn, process information.

Dave Wallace 2:06

Well, I mean, I think that's a I think a brilliant summary. I I would kind of reinforce the neurological side of things. You mentioned the word processing, and I think that's kind of critical, is that this is often to do with the bra the way that the brain is set up or uh and you know what people are dealing with is neurology rather than psychology. And I think for me it was a big kind of light bulb moment that this may be just to do with you know genetics and the way that my brain works rather than you know some sort of psychological impediment that you know I may or may not have. But I think you're right. I mean, I think the kind of key things are is there is is spectrum. I mean, the more they look at neurodiversity and the opposite of neurodiversity is neurotypical. So you have that they would describe people with you know who fit into kind of the broad category of normal uh uh as neurotypical, but the more they look into that, the more they realise that people kind of sit somewhere on this spectrum, and you know, the borders are around all of this stuff is fairly difficult to define.

Adrian Ware 3:24

So so what triggered you to starting to think that maybe you were there and at such a late stage in your life?

Dave Wallace 3:32

I mean, I mean it's it's very interesting because I um we our children, like I mean, so many people who uh have children will will understand this. We sort of discovered that there was problems with reading and writing, and you know, all the kids were diagnosed with dyslexia and dyspraxia. And actually a couple of them then displayed a bit more than that in terms of sort of the way that they kind of looked at the world. So we we we I we were sort of I was chatting to my wife, and we were like, well, we think there might be a bit more going on with with one or two of them. And um I for some reason had just started listening to a podcast about ADHD, or I'd been reading some articles about ADHD, and I was like, I wonder if he's he's got ADHD. So I sort of did some investigation and found that there was a place where you know he could actually privately get a diagnosis. So uh I I laid this back internally to the family, and then um I think one of my daughters said, Oh, I I've just done a a kind of quick quiz on on ADHD. And she said, I don't think she's I don't think he's the only one in the family with it, basically. So I was like, what do you mean by that? And she said, Well, uh I you've sort of scored quite highly. So I was like, What? So I mean it was really kind of observation in the family that kind of got me got me.

Adrian Ware 5:08

What was your initial feeling on that?

Dave Wallace 5:10

I mean, do you know what to begin with? I was like, Oh, I got really, really angry and annoyed. I was like, what the hell are you talking about? You know, I mean, turns out that you know, immediately getting really annoyed and angry is a very symptomatic of ADHD. Um, but you know, she sent me the quiz and I did the quiz, and I was like, oh, the questions are kind of really interesting because in my head, ADHD was sort of people who, you know, young boys in classrooms unable to sort of sit still and kind of causing causing havoc. Um, but you know, there was a lot in there around attention deficit that kind of really resonated with me.

Adrian Ware 5:55

You know, I so um how does that manifest with you though?

Dave Wallace 5:59

I mean well, well, for me, that um I I mean, and you know, I I'll be as honest as I can, and you know, but but it it manifests in in terms of things like um boredom. Like I have a very low boredom threshold. Um you know, if I'm not interested in something, I can't engage with it. So I'd always wondered why hate small talk. Now, I mean, you know me very well. I mean, I love to talk, and but you you know, in social settings I find just small talk really, really difficult. And people have often said to me, or my family have said to me, God, you're quite rude, because you you know, you'll be talking to someone, and you can you basically they can say, We see you switched off, and you know, you're looking over your shoulder. And sort of odd things like in social situations where I I felt um like under pressure to converse and talk, I get very, very exhausted very quickly, and I just want to go, you know. So um uh so that was kind of like a big thing. Then in terms of like I've had this really weird relationship with money over the years. Like I've never, I you know, again, it's sort of I feel slightly ashamed of this because you know, I'm the father of five kids and you know, supposed to be the head of the family, but I've never, never really totally understood the concept of money. And I know that sounds like a really sort of trite thing to say, but it somewhere in my brain it just sort of doesn't add up, particularly when you think about money into the future, and I know that's something that people struggle with, but but around money, one of the I guess the worst things is I I find it really difficult to read complex information. So I've been through an an awful lot in my career, and including selling a business, and when I look back on it, I've managed to do all of that without actually reading the the legal documents or I I mean and I mean I love the look on your face, and we'll definitely put this up as a video podcast as well. But I you know, but it was like going back to podcasts. I was listening to um Katie Price talking on a podcast, and she was like saying, like, one of my big problems is I cannot engage with complex documents, I can't read documents. Um, and I was a bit like, oh yeah, well that's you know, maybe it's not just me who kind of suffers from it.

Adrian Ware 8:44

And I think that's that's it's fairly publicly documented, isn't it? That that she recognises that's caused her all to make all sorts of mistakes and placing trust in the wrong people and and and basically getting sort of you know, um, I think the technical turn is screwed over.

Dave Wallace 8:59

Um Yeah, t totally. And now she's in a position where she can't have um she can't sign documents without a responsible adult being, you know, so somebody who's explained all of this stuff to her. And then that made me reflect, and you know, we get into this. That actually where I my good fortune was that I I had actually surrounded myself with responsible adults who, you know, including your good self, who have been able to kind of guide me through a lot of this stuff.

Adrian Ware 9:31

And it was sort of a it was just something that kind of happened organically rather than you know, something that um well I was gonna say, 'cause I mean, you know, you you you you you built and ran um a very successful agency, sold it into WPP and ran that then internally for a long time, dealing with all sorts these sorts of things. I mean, wow, I mean that that's it's amazing actually. But but but you obviously, I mean, because maybe you didn't you didn't know, but it clearly wasn't a disabler to you at all. Um I I hear various people talk about this uh in terms of you know it's it's not it's not a problem, it's my superpower. Would you buy into that?

Dave Wallace 10:14

Totally. And I think you know, well what what I then, you know, going back to the sort of the whole diagnosis, you know, it talks about hyperfocus, and what I realized is that I am very good at kind of hyperfocusing. So, you know, um, it turns out the internet was a blessing to it. So I discovered the internet quite by accident in the early 90s, and I was like, it was sort of love at first sight with with that. So I actually helped put yellow pages online. You know, I was the first person in Yellow Pages when it was still a massive book business to um to have an internet account. But I you know, I reflect on it and go, well, actually, the internet changes the whole time. So, you know, I was so fortunate because I I never got bored because it was always changing, you know. So I was like riding this way. Within that, there's a kind of there's commerciality. So I I don't I can't read documents, but it doesn't mean I'm not highly commercial. So I was able to identify kind of sweet spots from a kind of uh a propositional point of view and and build a business, and I think it is a superpower in many ways, or for me it's been a superpower. Um but I then went through a formal diagnosis, and that was a bit like a key unlocking my brain, to be honest with you, because you you know, within my myself, um I mean, again, I I I would often get really angry about stuff uh very quickly, you you know, and I discovered that's a sort of symptom of ADHD. So there was a lot of repairing I actually needed to do in in the family because I think the problem is when you kind of don't understand what's going on in your brain, you can often create this sort of whole world of everybody versus me type thing. Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, so there was a lot of repairing that I kind of needed to do, but it also then sort of made me think, well, I need to do things like repair my relationship with things like money. I've I've done well as a sort of individual in terms of having a business, selling a business. Um, but that hasn't stopped me from having a kind of morbid fear about it all, you know. So it goes back to this sort of unbalanced relationship with money and the future. Like and it you know, as I say, I mean, I guess my good luck was to sort of get advice from an early sta early stage around my money.

Adrian Ware 12:50

Although I know I mean we've we've we've chatted before about um I think you know way back in the day, you perhaps not receiving the best advice, and and and and it is that issue of you are having to place trust in people where that they take advantage of you. But I think I mean you you you had some experience of that, didn't you?

Dave Wallace 13:11

I I I did, and I won't go into the the the company involved, but you you know I'm still feeling the repercussions from from that. And um you know, it makes me like I mean, and the that that kind of goes back to the a time in the 90s where there was very little regulation around advice, and I I've sat and now understood I was probably just seen as somebody to pay for a or you know, a prize on a on a nice boat, you know, holiday or something like you know, it w I was just a commodity in the process. And uh I mean I I think thank God a lot of those days have behind us, although I I think the attitude still lives on very much. But yeah, I mean through the bad experience, you know, I kind of learned. Um, so uh I think that kind of that that that made a difference. Uh I mean, and that's sorry, that is one of the other things to talk about ADHD is you know, often people will learn by experience rather than by sort of reading things or whatever. So I guess I was in a position where I was able to to to know what I was kind of looking for from an advisory point of view.

Adrian Ware 14:27

Yeah. Oh, it's interesting. I mean going back to the how people learn and how people assimilate information in and we all do it in different ways. Way before neurodiversity was was was a thing that was talked about and recognised, I was always uh sort of taught that and experienced the fact that we we all tend to learn in different ways and we tend to absorb information different ways. And you know, I'm very visual. I I I I I will remember a picture, I like I like drawings, I like doing it, it it it ri it resonates. I'm not bad at detail in terms of reading um sort of you know detailed things, but I know plenty of people who aren't, and if you put a very long detailed sort of apron in front of them, they will do exactly what you would do and just switch off completely. But then of course there are other people who they they don't want the pictures, they want the detail. So it's all part of you know this, it's so you know, to make sure that you you try and present things in a number of different ways, because you know we we we wouldn't necessarily know when we first met somebody where where they sat or on any spectrum, um, and how to get those messages across simply and easily and in the most beneficial way for them to actually understand what they would they were seeing. Um so and it sounds I mean my question to you would be if if if if you were talking to one of my sort of advisors in the firm who is just starting out on their career, um knowing now what we know, is there is there anything they should be taking away? The wider advisor community that sits out there is are there are there things that people should be doing when they are talking to clients generally without knowing whether they're neurodiverse in terms of how they talk and interact with people?

Dave Wallace 16:18

I I think it's simple things like how how do you want your information you know uh given to you? You know, what what what what can we do? You know, it's like we live in an AI age now where you've got things like notebook.ml where you can which is a remarkable piece of technology, can upload a complex document and then it can produce a podcast from it, you know, which or a or or a video, or you know, so there are tools available. So I think one of the first things to really get behind is you know, how do you want us to present this information to you uh and offer a range of a range of tools. Now that will tell when they say, Oh, you know what, I r I like listening or watching tells you something. Or I like the detail, it kind of tells you something. I think it's actually I wouldn't now I'm in I sort of understand my brain, I'm happy to say to people I'm I'm a bit AD, so you need to take that into account. I think most people in the financial community haven't got a clue what that that means. So, you know, part of what we're doing here is to kind of educate the community. I think that if you do understand that someone is more neurodiverse, then you know they may ask you odd things and you know want things in it displayed in different ways. But I think you know, increasingly people will be saying, you know, I have a diagnosis. Um I think you know, one curiosity, because a lot of my career has been working with financial services firms, is often people will go through a risk tolerance calculation. I mean, if you want, in order to give advice, you need to understand people's attitudes to risk. I don't think that captures people's relationship with money. So trying to find a way to ask people like, do you wake up in the middle of the night sweating when you think about money and the future? Like it that could be a question, which isn't a risk question, it's just like no, I totally totally agree. Yeah, I mean you know, that sort of more human side of things, because I think like and by the way, risk I think is just you know, I I understand, but it feels like a sledgehammer to crack a nut because my attitude to risk changes from one day to the next. So I I've always thought that doesn't kind of work. I I think through all of it is sort of really starting to say, you as an individual, like how do we kind of communicate best to you? You know, how do we work with you? And I think technology now exists to be able to do all of this.

Adrian Ware 19:05

I and I I'm I'm gonna guess that uh um people will increasingly lean into AI because it's it it's seen as a as a sort of this independent view. What's your take on that?

Dave Wallace 19:20

I I agree a hundred percent. I was just chatting to recently to someone who's got a wealth management platform based out in the Middle East. They've just done a survey and they asked people like, do you use AI for financial advice? 70% of people said they do. And you know, it's not surprising. People are going to Chat GPT and asking questions. I think what was more shocking actually for me is 70% of people said they would act on the advice of AI. You know, I I'm really not in that camp yet because I know that you know AI has a sort of a tendency to kind of hallucinate and do other things. So I I would definitely advise people not to act on what Chat GPT tells them.

Adrian Ware 20:10

You're right. I mean it does it is quite deterministic, isn't it, in it in its approach, and and I think there are there are big dangers at the moment. I think it's it's changing all the time.

Dave Wallace 20:18

But yeah, I I um but but you know the ability to go to something which kind of is like you know, they've been programmed to be kind and nice and you know, attentive and to to do that, yeah. I mean that tells you what the industry should be doing, you know. I mean, yeah, like I can imagine a future in which you know we we talk to AI, but that the relationship we then have is is sort of AI but to a human as well. So, you know, that was one of the other things this gentleman said is that you know, because I explained my daughter was training to be a uh financial um advisor, and he's like, lucky girl, because she's or lucky woman, sorry. She he was like, you know, the future, if she knows how to kind of work with AI, the future is so so there, because you know, you still need a human being as part of that process. So you know, and I I can sort of see like this is genuinely the way I think to kind of help tackle the issue of the different way that people view the world, you know, because of as going back to the whole point is they process information differently.

Adrian Ware 21:36

Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. Um and yeah, well, as you you know what we're doing on AI internally. So yeah, I think we're we we agree entirely. I think it's dangerous and needs to be used correctly, but it's it but it's incredibly valuable.

Dave Wallace 21:51

Um I I agree, but I ought y you know, I I then was sort of thinking about like part of the issue with that is it kind of You're not learning a skill. So, you know, one of the things that I think is really missing in this country is is just access to financial knowledge about and and skills around finance. And I think that is something that kind of schools.

Adrian Ware 22:17

Oh, it's much wear of mine. Um there's no uh there's no finance on the curriculum anywhere. Um you know, we we we we we've been chatting to various schools around and with with a uh uh sort of a a peer group that I'm I'm a member of going into schools and providing pro bono sort of sessions on it. But you know, uh an hour um uh sort of set session with a with a group of students doesn't really cut it. Um they spend more time learning how to do you know woodwork and cooking rather than actually money, which is fundamentally important. And and some of that stuff, I mean it's a bit it's not quite true for obvious reasons now, but it used to be a case of you know one of the things was how to write a check. You know, that that's not really necessarily about understanding.

Dave Wallace 23:04

No, I I was hearing that that is still on the curriculum, I think.

Adrian Ware 23:08

I know it's it's not so um so no, I think you're right, that that that needs to change anyway, but that's uh um but yeah, so that more on that later, I think, uh as we if we can push that one out.

Dave Wallace 23:20

No, well I but I think I mean I through the process I've been through, like I've always wondered in the work that I've done why you mentioned the word pension and people's brains just switch off. Now I I thought, well, that's just well, I've always thought it's weird, you know, that it's like a magic word pension.

Adrian Ware 23:40

It's like you're allowed to say pensions are boring. I do get it.

Dave Wallace 23:44

I mean, it's it's not that. I think there's something more like it's um uh you know, people kind of almost get put to sleep, like snap your fingers and they but I think maybe it's a kind of there is a sort of definite like there could be a physiological reason why we can't think about money into the future. So, you know, one of the things that I ponder is like how do you kind of better talk to people about future money, particularly at a kind of school age where it's you know that it's a complete irrelevance to them. And you know, I I now know that it's a really important thing. So, you know, when the kids were young, we set up sort of small pension schemes for them, and my god, they've grown extraordinarily, you know. So I'm like, well, you know, you've got the basis for some something good in the future.

Adrian Ware 24:37

Um is that demystification, isn't it?

Dave Wallace 24:40

Of of a Yeah, I but I think it's there's slump something slightly more. Like I think pensions need a kind of rebranding, but uh, but again, you you know, I think it's uh that's something AI can really help with is you know, like mm-hmm.

Adrian Ware 24:54

I'm showing up on all this. I think that the that that there has been a period where the the pensions industry has actually not looked to simplify or not looked to to make things demystified because it suits their purposes not to. They want it to be complicated and all the rest of it. And I think that's that that that is changing, but very slowly, and it's changing from where we sit and my my peers um uh are are around the country doing what we do, but we are just a small group of people trying to trying to move a very big needle. Um, and I don't see a lot of that happening. It's very frustrating for me.

Dave Wallace 25:33

But but I think this is why this like this topic's really important, AI is really because these are all like you know, a lot I hear a lot about um both ADHD and AI, like it's there's a lot of hyperbole, and you know, there's more and more people being diagnosed, and it's just a trend, it's just a fad. And I I just say complete BS. You know, we're we're moving into an AI future. Kind of, I think more and more people are understanding themselves and going through that diagnostic process, and the world's gonna be a better place for it, and I think it means that the industry will have the challenge. I mean, AI is a massive challenge to financial service, a huge opportunity, but it's a massive challenge. But I think the more people understand about how brains work and the individual, the more the industry is gonna have to kind of recognise that they need to change around the individual. So I think you know, they they're kind of actually strangely related, those two things, and I think an existential threat and opportunity to to the finance industry. And those people, those I think organizations, institutions that kind of recognise that, I think will really, really benefit hugely.

Adrian Ware 26:54

I agree. Dave, listen, thank you so much for sharing all of that. That was uh really interesting. I mean, you know, and being very open about your own situation. Thank you. I'll I'll we'll close it off there. I think it was a good point to finish on, but um uh and we will see you next time. When when you will be back in the hot seat.

Dave Wallace 27:14

Yeah, no, indeed. Well, I I really appreciate it. So uh yeah, I'll I'll send you the money for the therapy session. But look look, I mean I half of me I've gone through the embarrassment site, you know, I've looked at looked at the whole thing and gone, well, actually, I think there's a lot of people out there who may suffer. You you know, I've actually I I've written a few articles about it. I've been I've had some people come to me and say thank you because you're writing about things that really have impacted my life. So you you know, and I I would encourage people if they if they or the people around them think that it it might be worth getting a diagnosis, then just go and do it. Because as I say, for me it was like a key unlocking something, and you know, it's it's been nothing but a positive experience.

Adrian Ware 28:09

Brilliant, really good. Thank you again.