You Are Meant To Be An Actor with Brian Patacca

Brian Patacca returns from last year's final episode and  shares his insights on the duality of acting as both an art and a business. He emphasizes the importance of maintaining artistic integrity while navigating the complexities of representation and the industry. Brian discusses his transformative coaching approach, which helps actors overcome limiting beliefs and build meaningful relationships with agents and managers. The conversation also touches on resilience in the face of rejection, the significance of continuous engagement with the industry, and practical advice for aspiring actors looking to thrive in their careers.

Takeaways

• Focus on the craft of acting while understanding the business side.
• Transformative coaching can help actors overcome limiting beliefs.
• Building a partnership with agents is crucial for success.
• Embrace change and resilience in the acting journey.
• Recognize your place in the industry and set realistic goals.
• Engage continuously with casting directors and the industry.
• Rejection is part of the process; focus on your craft.
• Seek help and guidance to navigate the business side of acting.
• Your marketing should reflect a 3D experience of your career.
• Keep acting and developing your skills regardless of external validation.

Find Brian on Instagram under briansaysthat.

Find all future courses and opportunities Brian has to offer on his LinkTree.

Transcript

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David John Clark (00:00)
Good morning. Good morning, everyone. Live to you from the studios of the Late Bloomer Actor. And we are with Brian Patacca today. Welcome back to the Late Bloomer Actor podcast, Brian.

Brian Patacca (00:09)
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad to be here. Really glad.

David John Clark (00:12)
Happy

New Year to you, even though it is now March, the year is disappearing so fast.

Brian Patacca (00:18)
So fast. Yes,

yes. We finally have spring here. I'm sure over there you're not having it, but we have had cold. It's been cold in LA. We don't have cold weather in LA, so special time. Yeah.

David John Clark (00:26)
Wow. there you go.

Now I had you on for a quick chat in my end of year special back in October last year where I was so fortunate to interview, albeit very quickly, 12 hosts of my favorite podcast that I listened to for inspiration and growth as an actor and as a podcaster. was such a pleasure having you on and you dropped some powerful truths about the importance of focusing on the craft of acting and not letting the business side take over.

Brian Patacca (00:54)
Yeah.

David John Clark (00:54)
But

still maintaining the importance of understanding the business side of acting. It resonated so much with me and my listeners, especially your perspective on aligning with your purpose and staying grounded in what we love about acting. For those that may have unfortunately missed that episode and they're all going to go back and listen to it straight after this one, of course, or haven't heard a lot about you, can you give us a quick rundown on what you do for actors, both in your podcast, Brian Breaks Character, and your educational courses that you run?

Brian Patacca (01:20)
Sure, yes. So I made a name for myself because I've helped over 724 actors find representation. And the way that I've done that is of course by, you know, take this step, then take this step, and then take this step. But the part that I think is, I would say revolutionary, why actors have a transformative time in that process is I'm a non-denominational reverend. So I bring all of that spiritual training to the conversation, which doesn't mean we're getting down on our knees and praying, but it does mean that we may be having a more kind, generous, and positive assumption around the business

and around managers and agents that are out there. And what I find is that cuts through any limiting beliefs that can hold actors back.

Thinking that they have less lower status than managers or agents, or they need to settle for an agent or manager who isn't working for them in the way that they want to. And also my goal is that actors are so full of themselves by the time that they're looking for a manager and agent that they don't even care if they get one anymore. And of course they do because now they're less attached to the outcome. I started in 2020, March of 2020, which is a really great time to start a program, obviously. And...

I'll just tell you in case you forget what happened, the pandemic was happening everyone. Yeah, yeah. And 100 % of the actors who reached out during the pandemic while production was shut down got managers and agents. So something about what we were saying was speaking to something larger than...

David John Clark (02:26)
I did hear about that. I did hear about that. It was in the news for a little bit.

Brian Patacca (02:43)
day to day, like what's going on in the business. And so I can say the same thing about when we had double whammy strikes here in the United States, every single person got representation. The conversation that I was realizing we were having with reps was around,

who you are as an artist, not just your bottom line, not just like what's on your resume, not just can I get you a job. Of course we want that to happen. Of course we want to get jobs and all that. But to at least rely on the fact that this is going to be a fan of your artistry became a whole new conversation. So for me, that's the more interesting conversation to have because I want to value an actor first as an artist. And because you're on the planet in 2025, and I'm going to imagine that you don't just want to act in your mom's garage, which if you do, congratulations, awesome. You are the lucky one who is not trying to make a living at this. But if you're someone who wants to

living at this, then you have to interact with the business. And we all know there are just auditions you can't get without a manager or agent, no matter how crafty or creative or...

weird you get with your marketing. And so to acknowledge that managers or agents are part of your purpose on the planet is a very different conversation that we get to have instead of, I got to have an agent. Hopefully they'll get me a bunch of auditions. Like I want to build real partnership. And so I am imagining that's probably what your audience kind of got excited about because I don't think a lot of people are talking in this way. I think a lot of times like, well, you take this step and then you take this step. And what miss what I think an actor misses out on a program that is just take this step, take this step and take this step is themselves in the process. It is

we need to pull attract in the manager or agent who has the same hopes and dreams for your career as you do, who can see the same vision that you do and who you can communicate with because let us not pretend that you're not going to bring the ghosts of representation past or project onto your manager or agent that they're your parents and try to get approval from them. Like how do we clean up our side of the street so we're able to be great clients to our great manager and agent that we hope is with us for forever? I know I see so many actors who are afraid to even email their manager or agent because they're like, I'm afraid they'll drop

me. Well, they might as well have because you're not even talking to them. Like what's even happening here? So that has been really exciting to me because I think at the end of the day, what I'm doing is a business level relationship coaching.

David John Clark (04:46)
Awesome.

Brian Patacca (04:48)
And it's exciting to me because I just love to see actors full of themselves and happy and in doing what they're meant to do and knowing that they're choosing to interact with the business. That is a choice that you're making because you could just act in your hometown, right? So if you're gonna choose that, then how do we hold on to, I don't know, the sanctity of your instrument in that process? So to me, that's one of most exciting about my work and most rewarding. Hopefully that gave people an idea. I mean, I'm in Pasadena, California, in case you wanna know where I am. I have a fiancee, we've been engaged for four years. We wanna buy a house, that's why we're not married yet.

We We We

have a cute little dog. I've been doing this for 20 years. Brian Breaks Character is my podcast. I was an actor for a long time before I came to this. And I was successful in my acting career. I made my living as an actor. So was really one of the lucky ones.

I was on set at The Newsroom, if you know the HBO show, and Aaron Sorkin is there and Alan Poul is there. The director was like a great, I mean, it was not a big part, but it was like a great part. And I remember being on set that day. And I remember I had to cancel on three of my clients to be on set that day. Three of my coaching clients, my business coaching, right? And I remember being like, well, this is fun, but I would have been having more fun with my clients. And it was this very weird wake up call where I said, my gosh, am I allowed to like...

David John Clark (05:36)
Wow!

Hmm, okay.

Brian Patacca (05:59)
coaching more than acting. I had to get a lot of, it was a little bit of a brain screw up for me, right? And I was like, oh my God, I love coaching more. And I also believe I don't think I could be the coach that I am today had I not achieved some level of success for myself. What I determined was success because I think I would have been holding onto something that I needed to achieve. It took me about one day to get over my, you're allowed to like coaching more. And so that's how I came to be a coach.

David John Clark (06:01)
Got you.

I love that. I love that. And I really want to dive into, mean, your pivotal topic that you talk about is getting agents. One thing that I just wanted to bring it back to today, where we're all at now to see you've just come, you're coming from Los Angeles, which thoughts out to everyone that just went through all the fires. Now that did, I'm not sure how much it affected you. I know it affected one of our recordings because you'd lost your power when we were supposed to record.

Brian Patacca (06:48)
Yeah. Yes.

David John Clark (06:49)
Now me personally, I don't know if you can tell my background is very, very blank at the moment. I'm missing all my posters. I'm in the process of selling my house and, buying a new place. So it's chaotic. So when we look at that as actors, I just wanted to get your perspective on that. How do we keep pushing through in these times when things happen? So in LA, all the actors had to go through the fire. Some more so than others.

Mine doesn't compare to that at all, but it, changes your routine and it, and it pushes you in front. So how do we continue on the path of maintaining our approach to acting? Whether we're looking for an agent at that time, or we're maintaining those relationships, how do we really nail that down in these times when things just go south?

Brian Patacca (07:36)
Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's, and I will say thank you for acknowledging that. And I'll say I'm one of the lucky ones. We had power out and we had a bunch of people housed in our home because they didn't have anywhere to stay for a while, but we got out unscathed. So we're a mile away from where the fires were. So I will say, we have to remember that this, business will always be a roller coaster. And so in a very Buddhist way, we need to embrace that change is what's happening. Change is going to be what is going to happen all the time.

And so if we can come back to kind of where I started, where I talked about spirituality is if we acknowledge the greatest truth with a capital T that you are an actor, that you are meant to be an actor. Now you might have all kinds of limiting beliefs that start to sneak in and say, you be meant to be that. I just want to like, if we could just for a second, like put those aside for a second and just suspend any of that disbelief to say, I am meant to be an actor with a capital T. What comes after that?

This word isn't exactly the right word, but what comes after that is child's play. So whether you get the job or not, whether the agent says yes to you or no, whether the business is busy or slow, whether you have the perfect headshot or not, the truth is you are meant to be an actor. And so the steps that you take toward that, that is what is the, that I would say is the most important piece. So let me say this a different way.

I believe that the universe is organized by desire. So your desire to be an actor, your desire to get a coffee took you to that Starbucks, your desire to move to that city. Like a lot of actors don't live in the town where they grew up. So your desire to be an actor moved you across the country or moved you to a bigger city where there's more acting happening. And then just think about the trickle down effect of that. So now your parents are visiting you in another city or you're going to go get headshots. And on your way to those headshots, you're going to stop and get a sandwich at this place. And you're going to interact with that person behind the counter, like all of

these things that we're talking about is how I believe the universe pulls us forward. And so your willingness to say yes to that desire inside of you, is like to really step through what is being asked of you, right? And so the business slows down.

I'm an actor anyway. Guess what? The business is slow. What does that give me? It gives me a chance to spend time on those other parts of my life right now that I'm always not spending any time on because the business is always taking over my entire life. So maybe finally I'm going to take my dog to the place that I've always wanted to walk him. Like there's spaciousness that comes from this. I think we got this lesson really well during the pandemic because there was just no work to be had.

David John Clark (09:57)
Mm.

Brian Patacca (10:02)
And so I was like, okay, what do I now have as an opening in my life? So whenever I'm talking to an actor, I'm often saying to them, what is the other thing that is also sustaining you? And it can be the thing that puts money in your bank account, or it might not be the thing, but what is the other thing that is holding it? It could be being a parent, it can be being I love to cook, whatever. So to me, the grab for the business to be busy, or the grab for to look the same, it starts with us letting go of that.

David John Clark (10:28)
Mm.

Brian Patacca (10:28)
It also starts with, and this is easier said than done. I want to just acknowledge what I'm saying could be like really like a dish served cold. I totally get that. But if we can believe that everything that's meant for you will come to you in its right time, then we kind of can take a little foot off of the gas. I don't mean that that means take the foot off the gas when it means to showing up in the business. I meet way too many actors who spent, yeah, I've been at it for 10 years and then they tell me what they've been up to and I go, no, you haven't. You thought you were.

No one told you what it meant to actually be in a career.

You got good headshots, you went to some workshops and then auditions didn't happen. So you backed off and there's, I find a lot of actors can be in this push, push, pull of like, okay, I got some energy to work on my career. I'm going to work on it for a few weeks. Shoot, nothing happened. Okay. I'm going to back off. Let me see if can get it up again in three more months. And then I work at it. And so the consistency in a career is really hard when you're not getting validation from the outside, but consistency is when I see actors start to break through. I was talking to a private client today and like she's doing a bunch of workshops and she was

a regular on a television show. I was like, we need to slow down. No more workshops with casting directors. We need to slow down. Not that you're never going to do one again, but we need to move into our classy actress stage. You are a regular on a TV show. We need to be a little bit more selective about where we're putting ourselves out there. So there's a little bit of, when I created the program to help actors get agents, I interviewed a bunch of agents and managers and one of the, with the number one thing that they said to me, that was like a turnoff when they would meet with an actor was not knowing where they

stand in the business. And to me, that's not the same as castability, which is like, I'm kind of like this actor or that actor where you stand is like how far you've gotten and like an understanding of what's probably next for you.

This isn't to put you in a box or to say you can't dream big, but it's like, okay, so I've got a bunch of co-stars on my resume. I'm gonna do TV, probably a guest star's next. Like maybe a recurring, like that doesn't mean you can't leap ahead. There's certainly plenty of people we know who leap ahead and suddenly book a series regular right out of college or they get that audition and suddenly they're far, they're in a movie, a feature film, right? That happens all the time. But just the awareness of what's likely next can, I think, give us a sense of...

focus of what actions we want to take. And so when the business slows down, it's okay. Well, what's my lane that I'm trying to, I don't want to say stay in your lane, but what's the lane I'm trying to move forward in right now. You can kind of zero in on the actions that you want to take around that. I don't know this answered your question. Yeah.

David John Clark (12:53)
Hmm. Is that like a,

sorry, is that, is that a bit like the imposter syndrome slipping in there? Not, not thinking that for want of a better word, that you're as good as, as good as you are. You're, you're, you're lowering yourself down at all the time. So not knowing, yeah, you said you weren't in that lane. So not, not being staying in your lane, but maybe not recognizing what lane you're actually in and believing you're, you're still on the dirt road. Is that what you're sort of alluding to?

Brian Patacca (13:06)
Yeah.

yeah. Yeah, I see it happen a lot.

Yeah, you

just said it perfectly, which is like not believing the lane that you're in, like not acknowledging, oh so let's pretend you're the actor who doesn't have any TV credits and TV is what you really want to do. We said, great.

I would like to do TV. I'm doing some web series. I'm getting experience doing a character on more than one episode of something. Yes, I'm not being paid, but I'm moving towards understanding what it's like to carry a role from episode to episode. That's an experience that you have yet to have, and yet you believe it's what you want. So that's a way of how do get myself to be in that lane energetically? And what you just said around imposter syndrome is really important because most often, I don't know where actors got this. I don't know where it is. We need to burn it down.

Somewhere, somebody believes that there's a blacklist and they're taking marks and and that someone's taking notes and like watching your career or that someone is like gonna look at your resume and compare it to your IMDB page. I'm not saying anyone should ever lie on their resume or anywhere like that. But I what I'm what I see actors do is an unwillingness

David John Clark (14:19)
Of course.

Brian Patacca (14:24)
to talk about how awesome something was for them. So like, for example, an audition that you get, I'm talking to every actor here, that you got with a casting director. Let's just use an example. Are you gonna audition with this casting director? Everyone knows the casting director. It's a well-known casting director. You didn't get the job, but you got the audition. Don't forget that there are agents out there who wish they could have got their client in for that audition.

And so many actors will be like, well, I can't talk about that because I didn't book it. Are you kidding? This agent over here is like, I couldn't even get my client in to see that you got a callback for that office or I can never get my clients into that office and you got a callback at that office. We have such a, we want to knock ourselves down before we want to lift ourselves up. And so one of the places that I ask actors to go first is yes, your resume. Sure. Everyone's got a resume though. Those are just the receipts. You've auditioned 50 times more than every single thing you booked. So where's the traction in your career? Where are the

David John Clark (15:04)
Mm.

Brian Patacca (15:16)
almost where you got into that casting office, you got the callback or you got the feedback or you got asked to submit a self-tape. That is a step beyond. That is how you acknowledge where you are in the business without it sounding like you're bragging because you're being very explicit and saying, they called me in for an audition. Okay, great. I understand where you are. I understand who you are in the business now because that's the kind of audition you're able to get on your own. The other side of this though, and you've probably heard this before David, is someone will

David John Clark (15:29)
Hmm.

Brian Patacca (15:46)
say, look at my career. I was able to get this audition and this audition and then the past three months and I did all this in the past six months and guess what we'd be able to do together? And it's like, no, you are delusional because now you've made it sound like your career is so fabulous and look at all the auditions you got in the past six months on your own. If I'm an agent, I look at that and I go, well, one, this person's delusional because those auditions are not that fancy and two, they clearly are so happy with themselves. Why would they need me?

You've got to leave a gap. And I understand it's vulnerable to leave a gap where you're saying, here's what I haven't achieved that or what I haven't been able to achieve yet. But remember, I like to think of reaching out to managers and agents is like putting out a job listing. Do you look at my materials and what I've got going on? And do you understand what your job would be? And do you believe you could do it?

David John Clark (16:15)
Hmm

Brian Patacca (16:36)
Otherwise we're saying, my career is fabulous. Do you want to get on board? And like, I'm looking at you like, no, your career isn't that fabulous. You've only been able to book co-star. Like, now you sound crazy. Instead of me being able to go, they understand that they're on a path to book something next. And that like, that's very different. So if you ever find yourself using the languages, imagine what we could do together. Please cross that out. Or if you ever have some like,

and I was able to do all this in the first three months, have you put like some timing thing on there? To me, that's where we brag. That's where we show off and it's not necessary. I don't want time in any actor's career because time does not exist. I'm being real profound here for a second. But if you remember, your resume doesn't have dates on it. And there's a reason why actor's resumes don't have dates on it because it's a body of work.

And we want to see the body of work that someone has done. So when you insinuate dates on it, or you say only your most recent credit matters, then you're going to attract the person that only cares about your most recent credit. So that was a long answer to short question there.

David John Clark (17:36)
No, and I love it. And it's a good segue into a question I had. You're known and some of the words I use is that you're the agent whisperer. And so we'll go into that. But I recently, last year, got a new agent in Sydney. And when I was reaching out to agents, I sent out all the emails, you know, seeking, you can't just send one away, you hit them all. But my approach was not

Hi, I'm David John Clark. I'm an actor and I need representation. I essentially went in, I hope I'm not going to give away a secret because it's mine, but I know I may have actually, I may have taken it from your podcast, I don't know, but I remember writing, what can I bring to your agency? It's how I wrote it. So.

Brian Patacca (18:10)
It's your secret. Right.

Great, great. I mean,

I think it's a little broad though, because David, you can't bring a water bottle. Like, I just want to make sure that you're specific around your own. Yeah, great. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David John Clark (18:22)
Hmm. No. And then I went further, of course. And then maybe

that's my secret that I'll keep. So instead of sending an email at all that was me, me, me, me, me, me, me, it was more about establishing that relationship straight away. So as the agent whisperer and you really focus on actors and how they can get a new agent or get their first agent or move to another agent or know that their agent they're with is

Brian Patacca (18:36)
Yeah.

David John Clark (18:51)
not doing them well. What are you providing for actors and what's the scope there that you have?

Brian Patacca (18:57)
Yeah.

So first things first, I think that you said something really important, which is I don't believe in a target list.

And I think that a target list is a way for an actor to play small. Because I don't know how many agents are in Sydney, but I'm going to use LA as an example right now. So there are over 2000 managers and agents in Los Angeles. And I'll meet an actor who says, okay, I've got my target list of 12 agents. And I just laugh in their face because I go, what makes you think that you know out of the 2000 agents and managers in LA that you found the 12 that are the best fit for you? So we have to just like really take that apart. We go, oh,

in my small thinking, I'm trying to protect myself from rejection, or I think that I don't want to end up with some bad agent who's not going to do good for me. Those are the two things that I can come up with as to why you would want a target list. I want somebody great, or I don't want to face rejection from a bunch of people. So if we let go of those two ideas.

You're obviously not going to sign with someone bad. Let's just be very clear. We're going to do our job. And actually, I also say this. I don't think any agent is bad. What I actually think, and I want to be give lots of props to managers and agents. Let us not forget that they hear no a thousand times more than any actor ever will. So just don't forget that that is like, they got some thick skin out there. Thank goodness for them. Right. So

David John Clark (20:07)
Mm-hmm.

And it's a terrible job. really, not a terrible job, but I couldn't imagine being an agent. They work so hard. It's like casting directors.

Brian Patacca (20:20)
Yes. And if

you're like, here's my 15 actors, now I'll see one of them. Like, you imagine? every, right, right. So I'd be like, what? I love all of them. Okay. So, so in the process, what I, what I do, the way that it works is we start off by taking a really honest inventory of how an actor has shown up in their career, where they've gone off track.

David John Clark (20:24)
Hmm.

Brian Patacca (20:42)
What are some limiting beliefs that are getting in the way? Because I'm thinking about my actress, she was on Grey's Anatomy for a while. And when she came to me, she was like, she was not happy that she had to look for an agent. She was skeptical. She was pissed off. She had to do a program. She's like, why do I have to even do this? I should have to have an agent. not me. And I want to make sure that's because she was like skeptical. You'll hear on the podcast if you want to listen to it, y'all. So this is not like me talking out of turn. She'll tell you this directly. And.

she realized she had some pretty hefty limiting beliefs that were getting in the way. And she could have probably just gotten an agent, right? She could have gotten an agent with those limiting beliefs in place. And you know what would have happened? She would have started working with an agent and that limiting belief would have gotten in the way of the communication with the agent. They would have gotten in the way when she finally booked a job or gotten away when they were in negotiating contract or gotten away when the agent didn't email her back right away. So we have to unpack some of those limiting beliefs so we can show up. I don't think the word clean is exactly right, but so we can arrive

open and not bringing a ghost of representation past into this relationship. Or your parents, which is what a lot of people do. They want them to get the approval like their parents or their teachers into the conversation.

So that's where we start off with this like fierce inventory of what's left a mark on me in my acting career. And most people who go through the program will say things like, that part of the program was everything I ever wanted. Oh my God, I felt so transformed and done. Okay, great. Well, now we got to go with the agent. I'm glad you had a good time. Let's work on the agent. So then what I'm teaching you do is to how to talk about yourself in a way that we touched on a little bit here, which is not downplaying what you've accomplished. And I think a lot of actors are....

They don't want to puff themselves up to sound better than they are and they shouldn't and they want to be authentic. But what usually happens is it's a little bit of a bludgeon instead of like a scalpel. And so then we're suddenly not even giving us enough information. So someone will say something like, yeah, and then I did a web series or and then I didn't get the job. And I'm like, OK, I need to know how many episodes of the web series. I need to know what kind of character you played. I need to know if it went to any festivals. I need to know if it was an official selection at a festival. I need details that can't be fought with. What I mean by that is:

No one can take the facts away from your career. So a lot of times I'll have people who did films and they're like, oh, I guess I went to a bunch of festivals. Okay, well, we're gonna tell them it was at a bunch of festivals, because we're reaching out to a perfect stranger who has no idea if you made a film in your garage with your mom. I don't know why your mom's so popular today, but your mom in your garage probably, right? So like, we have to give them the wherewithal to decide if you're right for them to meet with. And we do that by giving them facts, not just feelings, right? So then we have this really...

David John Clark (22:54)
Hahaha

Brian Patacca (23:09)
I don't want to say prescriptive, but I would say structured way to write the email that we use to reach out with. It's not something that ChatGBT can do for you, sadly, but it can help you, but it can't do it for you. So in the process, I even show you how to use ChatGBT if you're someone who likes ChatGBT to help you kind of work on it.

Because it's got to sell you and you want to... What we think about this is the beginning of every sentence is the best real estate in the sentence. So how are we front-loading every single sentence with the sexiest fact or detail about you so that someone wants to keep reading? And remember, the email is not... We're not trying to write just an email. We're trying to get someone to say, I want to meet with you. So the email to me is...

This is not a romantic meaning of the word, but it's a seduction. It's like, let me tell you enough about me that you can decide if you want to order me off the menu today. If you want to have this come in and talk to you, right? So what we want to do is drive them to watching your work. So then I help them put their materials together. And if you don't have a reel, I want everybody not to worry. You don't have to have a reel to make it work. But their materials, because we them to watch the story that they've heard about you is what you show in your materials.

And then the most, I'll say the most important piece I think is how do you gauge the managers and agents you meet with? Because in the program people usually get double digits meetings, so 10 and more. And so if you're going to say no to somebody, you're going feel really good about saying no. My favorite problem is when someone says, I've got three people and I can't decide which one, I love them all. Like great, have, before you started this program, that's not how you thought things were going. So you're welcome. So I give you a process to evaluate who's going to be the best match for you.

And then how to be a great client. So it's just, it's literally step by step, but through it, what I hear from the actors again and again is the transformation that they're finding inside of themselves by how they're relating to themselves in the business differently, which is why by the time they're sitting across from that manager or agent, they're able to go, yeah, this is not my person. Or like, I think I like this. Like they are not there to be like, let me please them, let me make see if they want me, just please pick me, please pick me. It's a very different energy that they show up with.

Because what we do is who we present is who shows up. And that's why the managers or agents most often, one of my clients gets 10 meetings, they get 10 offers because who they said they were in their email, who they said they were in their materials is who shows up in the meeting. And to me, that is the biggest win is that's the scenario I want to have for everybody. Yeah.

David John Clark (25:29)
Interesting. Can

you just quickly because we have listeners from all over the world, Australia, Europe and everything. So I think America is the only place that really has the difference between agents and managers. In Australia, we only have agents and I think they do the job of both. Are you able to quickly just explain the difference in America, for example, what the difference between an agent and a manager is? it sounds like what you've been talking about that that relationship and how you get them doesn't change anyway. Am I wrong there?

Brian Patacca (25:35)
Yeah.

Okay, got it. Yeah.

Charlie.

It doesn't know getting

the relationship to get a manager agent does not change. It's exactly the same until you're like super famous. Then it can be different, but in the United States, the way that a manager works is very similar to an agent. So the one thing to think about as an agent will represent you for only commercials or only TV and film or only theater. They can be siloed in that way. Some of that, there are some that will represent you across the board. I'll be, I'll be honest about that, but there are many that are siloed in that way. A manager will cover you in all of the areas. So voiceover.

David John Clark (26:17)
Okay.

Brian Patacca (26:26)
casting or voiceover, commercials, theatrical, like all of the things. And a manager is meant to have an eye toward the breadth, width and length of your career, I would say, the breadth and width, right? But that's not always the case. Sometimes managers operate very much like an agent. And what we see is that managers, having a manager and agent in the States just can help you get more auditions because both of them are submitting you to casting directors. So maybe if this manager knows a bunch of casting directors and this agent knows a bunch, it just helps you get more auditions. So

My clients who are in the UK and in Australia and like Taipei, they don't have managers, but we don't need to think of a different perspective on how you reach out to them. The thing to know about that is that just means your relationship with your agent is that much more precious and valuable in countries where you don't have a third triangulating the conversation. So we want to really find someone who's great for you in that area.

David John Clark (27:20)
Awesome. You spoke about it just then, you've got clients all around the world that you help get agents. So if we're looking, I'm in Australia, when do you think we should look for agents or managers in the States? So everyone wants to go to Hollywood, know, yesterday. So we don't need to go, we don't, I was just saying, it's so hard to get a working visa or to be sponsored to go into America. what

Brian Patacca (27:35)
Yesterday, yesterday.

Yeah.

We're making it so easy

on you lately, for sure, like especially with what's going on in our politics right now, you can totally come here. All are welcome. So here's, can I just jump in on this? Cause I have a lot of, yeah. So first thing that I everyone to know, I'm not a visa lawyer or know anything about work permits. Here's what I've seen happen. And this is entirely anecdotal. I don't have data to give you on this. I have only to tell you what my client's stories have been. So.

David John Clark (27:54)
I love it.

Of course.

Brian Patacca (28:10)
My clients who have been able to work in the States, unless they were on a student visa, which I'm assuming is not what most people want, you want to able to have a work visa. Usually when you're student, you can also do a little bit of work, which is why I say that. They have hired a lawyer and they have not done it on their own. They've had someone who's really helped them do that. I am not someone who's going to like, here's a lawyer to work with. I have a couple of people I could refer people to, but this is not like my milieu, right? What I will say is...

The lawyers who are preparing you for your visa or your work permit are the same materials that they're going have you getting together is very similar to what we'd be doing to reach out to manager and agent. So we're able to kind of work in tandem with what you're going to be putting together. It looks a little different when you deliver it because you're delivering to the government versus delivering it to an agent you're trying to reach out to. So I've had a few clients who've done it at the same time because they knew that they were kind of organizing it all together. The other thing that I'll say is...

I've had clients who have had letters to help them do this, which I think a lot of people know about to get sponsored. I've also had clients who got sponsored by their agents.

Now that's a tougher one to do because the agent doesn't know you already and then you're going to also ask them to sponsor you. In the case where I usually see that coming through is when the actor has some kind of, I don't want say exceptional because it doesn't have to be that exceptional, like maybe a little bit more unique talent. So I have a client who is a break dancer and he's incredible. And like he got sponsored from a dance company, dance agent pretty easily because he's incredibly different. They don't have that at all. The other client I'm thinking about is Irish and she does

a bunch of voiceover voices and accents, right? So she was able to get it through that way. But I just don't know that that route, unless you have that unique exceptional talent is going to be the route that you go. And again, this is where I lean on why we need to get a lawyer to help you with this as opposed to try to figure it out on your own. That makes sense. it did. Great. Yeah.

David John Clark (30:02)
I had Kym Jackson on last month from this.

We were joking and I've spoken about this before because the visa, the O1 visa is actually persons with extraordinary abilities, aliens of extraordinary abilities, which just encompasses everything you just said there. That's fantastic.

Brian Patacca (30:17)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wait, wait, David, let me just say one more thing to about this. I'll have, so my clients in Australia have used this process to reach out and get representation there, have used it once they've got their reps, you know, boots on the ground in the country where they live or the market where they live. Cause I have actors who do it in London and then they do it in LA or they do it in Paris and they do it in Denmark. But what I'll say is once you've learned it, it is not a lot of skin off your back to try in another city. So you might be like, okay, listen, I don't know about this visa thing, but I already got my, I use this process to get an agent in Australia, Sydney, wherever.

I'm going to try it and see if I can get someone who's interested in sponsoring me. So I just say, if you already know you need it in one place, it's not going to be hard to use it somewhere else. We give you all of the databases for any of the cities we've mentioned today, anywhere around the world. So you'd be set up to reach out, if that makes sense. Yeah.

David John Clark (31:08)
Interesting.

Okay. So

that it's, it's sort of like a back door into the States here. You can get yourself that agent and then they can submit you and they would come with that proviso. It's a bit like me buying a property at the moment to I've got conditions of sale so that they, they would say, here's, here's an actor that we think suitable. You'll need to sponsor them so they can get the visa. So it changes the process a little bit, but it doesn't mean that the door is closed. Awesome.

Brian Patacca (31:24)
Sure.

Correct. Yes.

Correct, correct, yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't

mean it's gonna be easy. I see everyone to buy in that this is not an easy process. No one I know has ever gotten a visa has been like, oh, it's so easy, like there was work.

David John Clark (31:41)
course.

Awesome. And you alluded to a little bit there. Do you say that you really need to have some grounding in your home country?

Brian Patacca (31:51)
I think you get your reps home first. Why would you look somewhere

else? Unless you know you're moving. And if you know you're moving, then maybe you already have a visa situation. So like get reps where you live first because it's only going to give you stature and hopefully you'll get some gigs and exposure to make you more of a alien of incredible talents.

David John Clark (32:09)
I love it.

So going on all this journey and everything we've talked about so far, what are the biggest things? And we've already mentioned it a bit is navigating rejection. It's such a big part of the acting industry. Just the, you know, the continual no, or just not hearing back. What advice do you give for actors to remain resilient and continue marketing themselves effectively when you seem to get no, no, no, didn't hear from you, no, no, maybe.

Brian Patacca (32:18)
Yeah.

Yeah.

David John Clark (32:36)
Thank

you. And I talk about this a lot from our perspective in Australia, and I try to make it so clear for actors here because I won't say it's tougher because I've heard an actress once on a podcast and she said that, I think she came up with a number of 42 auditions to get one job. Now I don't know whether there's some science behind it. So in Australia, I'm lucky if I get two or three a year. So that

Brian Patacca (32:57)
Sounds about right, sounds about right. Yeah.

Okay. Are you being picky?

Picky? Okay.

David John Clark (33:06)
No, that's literally, maybe it's me, I don't know. And

some actors are different like anything, of course, but in Australia, we don't have, you know, in LA, I hear actors getting up to 10 auditions a week. Now.

Brian Patacca (33:18)
That,

I cannot tell you the last time I heard of an actor getting 10 auditions a week, just so you know. So burn that, that, put that on the burn file so you could beat yourself up. But I do hear what you say about rejection big time. I hear what you're saying about that. That's, wanna, I would love to touch on that. And I would also just say, you should be getting more than two to three auditions a week. So a year, so let's work on that. So let's figure out that at another conversation. Okay, so.

David John Clark (33:22)
Well, there you go. All right.

place.

Thank you.

Brian Patacca (33:43)
I think there's two different things we're talking about. We're talking about rejection and then we're talking about a slow business. Those are two different, so two or three auditions a year is a slow business versus rejection, which is people saying, you no, you didn't get the job. There's a couple of places that I go and this may or might not be satisfying for everybody. So we're only going to get started on the answer here, which is, so you didn't get the audition. What are you working on in acting class that week? I'm working on my voice. I'm working like there's a artistic, I don't want to call it distraction.

But I'm hoping that the artist is on a journey bigger than the audition. So I've been working my voice in class, you got to use that thing that I'm working on my voice in the audition. It worked this way, didn't work that way. So there's a bigger conversation going on than the random audition that some stranger in the universe decided to put in front of your nose, right? So another way to think about this is Van Gogh didn't only paint when someone else put a canvas in front of him.

Right? So if we are making sure that doesn't mean to go out and create your own work, but that like you are working on your painting, whether or not it's going to hang in a gallery, I think sustains in those spaces that you are working on your craft in that way. And that isn't to say.

I just think there's a lot of classes that actors can take that don't satisfy what I'm asking for. So if you're taking a class that's with the casting director, you're taking a class which is only about auditioning, you're taking a class where it's only about the outcome, those don't usually sustain the kind of conversation that I'm trying to have. It's got to be a little more grounded in the artistry in order for it to pull you forward, in order to feel like, it affected my last audition because I was working on that thing in class. Like I'm working on bringing sexuality into my role, or this kind of confidence, or using this way of my voice, all those kinds of things.

The other thing about it is quit pretending that it's not going to be this way. This is the business. It is going to be up and down and all over the place.

Be mindful of our compare and despair of other actors, right? Like you were thinking about the LA people and the auditions that they're getting and whatever. And so I think it's really important that we take stock on what we're allowing to go through our semi-permeable membrane of what it is to be inside of this business. And then I think obviously more than two or three auditions, because I do think there needs to be some world where you are, like I'm hoping that whatever acting class that actors are in, where they're working on their craft, they're surrounded by other actors who are getting out there and have agents and are making it happen so that you

David John Clark (35:40)
Mm.

Hmm.

Brian Patacca (36:03)
can see like she got four auditions in the past two months. I only got one. Okay. Let me just without me beating myself up. Let me just notice if that's a trend. I'm she's continuing to go out a lot and I'm not. Is it her agent? Is it me? Is it her? Let me just ask questions without beating myself up. That's the that's the conversation that let me be curious,

David John Clark (36:23)
Hmm.

Brian Patacca (36:26)
without saying I'm doing something wrong. So oftentimes we want to hold up the mirror to ourselves and say we're the problem. The business is bananas, not you. So let's just remember that. before we, yeah, so quickly.

David John Clark (36:36)
But it comes back to you so quickly, so many times.

It hits you here and you think it's gotta be me. I do it all the time.

Brian Patacca (36:41)
It's gotta be me. Yeah.

for sure. And then another thing, you run out and get new headshots because that feels like the easy thing to do. Like quickly I can get headshots, right? And so we have to be really careful around what we let, what advice we let in, in those spaces.

David John Clark (36:49)
Yes.

Brian Patacca (36:56)
And so that's why I'm always like, is there a teacher who actually you can trust who's saying the right things to you so that you can know? Like, I don't want an actor who's giving you praise all the time. I don't want actor who's beating you up all the time, right? I want an actor who's saying, you can do better than that. You did great. Here's where you missed it. That was amazing. Here's why it worked for you. Like that there's some really in it with you. And that can be harder to find. But I just want to acknowledge that that is a way to find some solidity in this conversation when you know the business is going to go like this all the time.

David John Clark (37:26)
You don't just do the agent training, do, your packages encompass all that about how we traverse those ups and downs in everything and making us look at ourselves. Like my comment just before I get two or three auditions. So looking at why and developing that.

Brian Patacca (37:45)
Yeah, I talking to like that. I said, I was talking to this actress this morning who was a series regular on a TV show and we're having a very nuanced conversation about her manager and agent and the relationship between them and her relationship with them and how we need to position her to be the classy actress.

What's surprising to me, and it still is after doing this for two decades, is the conversation for the actor who has just gotten out of drama school and the conversation for the actor who's just gotten off of their series is almost always the same.

And it is around a reliance and belief that you are in the business and it's your job to make sure that people know that you exist. That's all your marketing needs to be. I think a lot of times an actor makes their marketing into, need to talk about what I did most recently, when in fact your marketing wants to give us just a 3D experience of your resume and who you are.

Your experiences, your background, because the truth is if you're only sharing your most recent booking, we all know it's going to be like, I got nothing to share all the time. And the truth is if I'm a casting director, I'm just trying to learn more about you and to know when can I call you in for an audition? When do you write for an audition? And so the belief behind all of this is anybody you've ever met, casting director, producer, actor, director, they all deserve to be stayed in touch with until the end of time in your career.

And we tend to think like, okay, I get a great audition, the casting director is gonna remember me forever. When there's a role that's right for me, she'll call me in. No one's remembering you.

Do you remember your barista's name from Starbucks that morning? No one's remembering you. No one cares. Everyone is too busy. So what you have to do is how do we continue to show up for that manager? Or I'm sorry, that cast director. Are you sending a monthly email? Are you sending a monthly postcard? I mean, are you sending something every six weeks? Like, what are you doing to say, hey, I'm out here doing this? And not relying on your most recent booking to do that. So that's where the conversation becomes really fun, right? Once you got the agent, we get to have this conversation about, how are we making sure people know you exist so that they're there, you're a go-to thought

David John Clark (39:17)
Fair enough.

Brian Patacca (39:41)
of shortlisted actor when they get a new script or they get a breakdown. That's where our job is. So there's, want to talk about those actors who I meet 10 years later, who's like, I've been really doing it in my career. And I'm like, what are you talking about? You had an audition 10 years ago. That person's never heard from you since your audition from them. What do you, what's going on? Like that has to, who are you, who, who are you to think that the whole world is standing around waiting for you? Now I want to say one more thing. I wish that actors didn't have to do any of this shit because you're real.

David John Clark (39:56)
Awesome. Bye.

Hmm

Top

work.

Brian Patacca (40:10)
Yeah, yeah, because your real job should just be to be a great actor and end of story.

And there was probably a time in the history of the world where that was what we got to do. But I'm sorry, we hold a computer in our hands now and we have 10 % we have like the shortest attention span in the world. And now we do have to be someone who knows how to do these other things if you want to have a professional career that pays you money. So I just want to acknowledge like I don't expect actors to be experts at any of the stuff we're talking about. And in fact, I would love it you didn't ever have to be, but you did just enough to make sure that people knew you were out here.

So I want to just make sure I acknowledge that.

David John Clark (40:45)
I love it. And that's made me realise too, I thought I was proactive in reaching out to casting directors and then I realised before, all of a sudden it's been a year since you've done anything and you've got to get over that. Am I going to be considered a stalker? Is it inappropriate? Yeah.

Brian Patacca (41:01)
Yeah, am I annoying them? Am I pestering them? Am I bothering

them?

No one cares. I'll tell you the song that I teach all of my clients. It goes like this. It's a little song. No one knew you were gonna get a song today. It goes like this. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. The second you start to think about how someone's reacting to your email or how you're reaching out, you just sing that song to yourself because you are not an egomaniac and you're gonna let go of the belief that the sun or that the earth revolves around you and everything is okay. Like, this what's so crazy, what's wild,

David John Clark (41:11)
Love it.

Brian Patacca (41:34)
when I say this out loud, everyone's like, yeah, shit, that's what I'm doing. But we don't, when we're in it, we don't think about it that way, right? No one is watching you that hard, I promise. And also, no one is paying the blacklist police to tell someone that you did bad behavior somewhere. Unless you take a crap in the middle of a casting director's office, no one is remembering your mistake. No one is remembering, yeah. Yeah.

David John Clark (41:56)
Fair enough. Fair enough.

I absolutely love that. Thank you, Brian. That's been fantastic. And it's a great continuation on my journey of what I'm focusing on this season is the business side of acting. But it seems to be that everyone's coming back to that. You've still got to be an actor and focus on the core thing that you want to be as an actor, but be aware of what you need to do in the background. So that's fantastic. So thank you very much. Just as we wind up and before we say goodbye,

could you give our listeners three points of note or one if one's more important, but up to three points of note that in your experience, actors should focus on immediately in their careers that you think from experience many actors lack.

Brian Patacca (42:40)
Yes.

The first thing that I want to tell everybody is you absolutely have to go look at your casting profile. No one spends enough time there. You set it and forget it. Like you said, auto pay on your bill. a whole course, there's my first course was devoted to that because it's so important. That's the number one thing. Number two is keep looking for your own auditions when you have agents. Do not rest on your laurels or think that it is their job to get every single audition. My dream is that you have to say to your agent, Oh my gosh, I have another audition on the same day that I got on myself. Like I, you even need you to be working.

David John Clark (42:47)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Patacca (43:08)
And the last thing that I'll say is keep acting.

That's the end game here. You're an actor. That is done. Whatever is coming up in terms of baggage that's getting in the way, talk to your therapist, talk to a coach like me, listen to the podcast, do what you need to do to get the noise to quiet enough so you can take the next right step forward. Engage in a course like mine or on the other people that you've even introduced to through this podcast so that you have someone else alongside you because like I said, it is not your job to be good at this. It is your job and the gifts have been given to you to be good at acting.

This other space of the business is a space where it's right that you would seek help. So that's what I'd say.

David John Clark (43:49)
Awesome. Thank you very much. And where can everyone find you and your podcast? What's the best places to hook up with you?

Brian Patacca (43:53)
I mean, I'm

sure I'm on Instagram at briansaysthat. But if you are someone who doesn't have an agent, I would love you to join me for my next agent class. It's makeagentswantyou.com. There's a waitlist up right now. Depending on when you drop this, may be agent, may be waitlist, may be live, but makeagentswantyou.com. And we will, and I will see you there and we'll get a chance to connect.

David John Clark (44:13)
Awesome. And you have them really regularly. Even if you're listening to this episode a year from now, follow the links, they'll be in the show notes. Brian is there to help you out. So thank you very much, Brian. Certainly very, very much appreciated. And one final question that you're talking to an Australian, hopefully you can understand me. Have you been down under before? Have you been to our wonderful country?

Brian Patacca (44:34)
I have not, it's

on our list. My partner's been, and so it's not been high on our list once we got together. He goes, well, I've already been, so we've been going to places we both haven't been yet. But it's on my list, yes, I want to be there. All right.

David John Clark (44:43)
Awesome. And our seasons are opposite. So if you

hate the cold, you can come down here when it's cooking. It's 43 degrees here today. I think that's about 109 Fahrenheit. So it's a nice hot day. Brian, thank you very much. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Brian Patacca (44:55)
I'm okay where I am. I'm okay where I am. Thank you. Good

to talk to you. Thank you.