Rwanda, DRC & M23: Understanding the Real Endgame Behind the Conflict | Gatete Ruhumuliza

The conflict in eastern Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) is often simplified into a story of aggressors and victims — but the reality is far more complex. 

In this episode of The Long Form Podcast, Gatete Nyiringabo Ruhumuliza breaks down the geopolitical, legal, and strategic forces shaping the Rwanda–DRC crisis, the role of M23, and why tensions between Rwanda and its neighbors continue to escalate. We explore the real endgame behind the conflict, the impact of US sanctions on Rwanda’s economy and everyday life, and the silence of regional powers and the African Union. 

This conversation goes beyond headlines to examine security, sovereignty, regional politics, and the future of stability in East Africa. If you want to understand what’s really happening in Congo, Rwanda, and the Great Lakes region — this is essential listening.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:42

This conversation is brought to you by Akagera Medicines, a biotech company that is majority owned by the Roman people. Akagera Medicines is not only committed to expanding access to healthcare, but also supporting conversations that inform, educate, and empower. Learn more about Akagera Medicines by scanning the QR code on your screen or by visiting their website at Akagera Medicines.com. The war in Eastern Congo is usually explained in simple terms. M23 is the bad guy, the DRC government is the victim, Ronda is the spoiler. All the while, the international community plays peacemaker. So today's question is: what is the end game? What do all the parties actually want? And what will happen when those goals don't align? My guest today on the Longform Podcast is Gatete Nieningabo Ruhumuriza, a lawyer, writer, and civil society voice who has written extensively about this conflict and the arguments behind it. His position is clear and it's controversial. Today, we're not just asking what's happening, we're asking where all of this is going. Gatete.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Caram.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Third time is a charm. This is your third time on the long form podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

Yes, and it's my pleasure, my third time pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Yeah, no, no. This is it's a big deal. Where this is a different space. This is your office, Mr. Lawyer, restauranteur, bar owner, man of many things. This is a huge honor, but even more so because you are one of the few people that I think can speak quite authoritatively on what is happening in the Congo and how it affects us, beyond just the usual political talk, but how it will affect us not just as Rwandans, but a much larger East African community and Africans as well. Now, let's get straight to it. What is the end game of this Congolese conflict? What is the end game for Rwanda? What is the end game for M23? What is the end game for the DRC? How does this all end?

SPEAKER_03 2:57

So without being prescriptive, as in predicting the future, I can tell you what is the desired endgame.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

I want you to not give us the desired endgame because we can all be very positive about things. I want you to be a realist.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Yes, okay. So Sunny, I don't know if people measure, they brush it off. The moment the DRC admits to disarming FDLR 30 years, 32 years after the genocide, it's a strong indictment. A country in the world that admits to working with the Islamic State, with Al-Qaeda, people find that to be a para-estate. The DRC admits that it can now disarm the FDLR, and it's not a para-state. So genocide ideology, we've been grappling with it in Rwanda for 32 years. And if you look at the reports of the Ministry of Ministry of Unity in Rwanda, we still have cases of genocide ideology in Rwanda today. Yet we have a deliberate national policy to address it. In Congo, where they have a deliberate national policy to infuse it, it's going to take them 100 years to address genocide ideology against the Tutsi. Hate speech is government policy and so on. So the end goal would be to create a buffer between the people targeted by the threat of genocide and hate and the people who are targeting them. That's the end state. Because I was telling somebody. That's the end state for Rwanda, I assume. No, if peace, because the Congolese Tutsi will never go anywhere. They will never vanish. You cannot wish them away. But they will never allow Kinshasa to determine their destiny and their safety, to guarantee their safety. Kinshasa, the last time there was a movement called Ercede, they went into peace talks and then they agreed that they can mix the army. I see Congolese politicians saying that M23 is seeking to mix the army with the Kinshasa army. It's not true. Last time they mixed army, M23's predecessor, sent its generals to Kinshasa and they were deployed across the country and they were killed. Officers of the Tutsi officers, essentially, they were killed. So M23 will never accept for Makenga and the likes and the generals of M23 to be deployed across the DRC. Because this has happened in the past and they were killed. That's number one. Number two, they can be defeated, by the way. They are not indefeatable. They can be defeated. If they are defeated, they will go and then they will come back. They will always come back to claim their land until the end of times. What you do in a situation like that, you do what they call confidence building. So what right now they are weary and discomfortable with Kinshasa. They don't trust the politicians and the political regime in Kinshasa. Therefore, they will not allow Kinshasa to determine their destiny. Rwanda cannot allow, there's a Chinese saying, we will not allow others to snow next to our beds. It's a Chinese saying. But Rw never allow for Kinshasa to determine the security of the people of Rubavu and Musanzi. Because there's no confidence building process.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

So then if all of them. So what does in a perfect world. What does that mean? If I may, in a perfect world, let's let's create perfect scenarios for each party. So I think because before we can understand how each of them everyone will react to each person's each party's wishes and desires, we need to actually identify each one. So in a perfect world, the DRC government, what is the end game for them?

SPEAKER_03 7:19

A win for them is to claim territorial integrity on the entire territory. That means Kivu included. Goma and Bukavu. So a win for them is to ensure that Goma and Bukavu are part of the DRC.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

And they have full military administrative control.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

No, no, no, I'm saying that would be the full win, yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Yes, that is their full win.

unknown 7:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

Their full win for full win for them, according to what they are saying, is to get Banyamurenge, Banyezomba, Banyamasi, and so on back into refugee camps in Rwanda and Uganda and to wish away M23 to defeat them and so on, and to continue to let FDLR and people like that operate in Kivu freely.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

So that is their wishes and desires. Okay, M23. What because right now they're they're fighting, they're trying to administer the territories that they now control, including uh Goma, Bukavu, Masisi, Sake, some of you know these beautiful parts of the DRC. In a perfect world where, you know, somehow God comes down and allows them, you know, a magic wand. Yep, a magic wand, boom. What's the perfect end game for the M23?

SPEAKER_03 8:40

Now, this becomes a complex answer. Why? Because remember, there's no M23 alone. M23 has become M23 AFC. So while M23's purpose was to defend the random phones from Eastern DRC, the moment they join forces with AFC, their goal become national. They want to transform the country, bring democracy, whatever they are saying, all the virtues of good governance and corruption and bring a better Congo. But M23 itself, it's I they don't have ambitions, Kinshasa ambitions as M23. The moment they join forces with AFC, they become a national movement. That aims to do what? Remember that? Aims to remove Chisekedi forcefully and take power in Kinshasa. That's what AFC's goals are: to remove UDPS and Chisekedi from Kinshasa. That's AFC. M23's purpose is self-preservation, is life to protect their own lives because they are under threat of genocide perpetrators who want to finish the job of exterminating Tuti in this region, and they are being abated and aided by Kinshasa to achieve their goals. So now, because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. So M23 is under threat. They've been in refugee camps. They still have people in refugee camps in Rwanda and Uganda, family members, that they're trying to return home to Ruchuru, Masisi, to protect Vanyamurenge in Murenge and so on. Now, that is their goal. Their goal would be to achieve protection and safety and prosperity of their community in the Kivu and to allow them to return to their ancestral land. However, AFC, they are not from the Kivu. They are from the entire DRC. The moment M23 and AFC join forces, they become a nationalistic movement that wants to take over power in Kinshasa by all means necessary.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

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SPEAKER_03 12:09

Preferred end game for Rwanda is to have safety of the Rwandan people.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

What does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 12:13

Is to make sure that there's no FDLR. That the preferred goal for Rwanda is to eradicate FDLR completely. Eradicate FDLR does not mean killing them all. How do we eradicate usually for the last 30 years? How have you have you been eradicating FDLR? We've been collecting them from Congo, bring them through rehabilitation camps, train them, and so on, give them jobs and seeds to plant and things and small cash to start small businesses and so on. Reintegrate them into Rwandan society. That's the Rwandan goal. Once that has been fully achieved, then Rwanda will have no defensive measures. Remember, when a country, you cannot accuse a country of having defensive measures. If you accuse a country of having defensive measures, then you are admitting at the same time that they have reason to defend because to defend themselves. Defensive measures cost money. No country will expend money to defend for a non-existence threat.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

So for Rwanda, the perfect state, the perfect end game is the total eradication of FDLR by several means military or peaceful. So now we go to the second question, right? So now we've understood what each party wants. Now, obviously, if each side has a different endgame, are we heading, are we likely to head towards a resolution or a much much much deadlier conflict?

SPEAKER_03 14:07

Unfortunately, Sunny, politics is non-linear, people don't do the right thing always. Because you see, in a conflict like this, we are we are going to reach that goal, but we're going to lose people, so many unnecessary lives.

SPEAKER_05 14:22

Which goal?

SPEAKER_03 14:23

The goal of peaceful cohabitation between Rwanda and the DRC, the total eradication of FDLR and the total protection of the Congolese Tutsi will be achieved. But before that happens, many, many lives are going to be lost. Why?

SPEAKER_02 14:39

Lives where?

SPEAKER_03 14:40

In the Congo. Because Chisekedi believes, he's the only one to, well, him and the mercenaries that he had, that he can defeat M23 militarily. If he did achieve that, he would then be allowed to change the constitution, and because he will be popular and then he will win, he'll be allowed to change the constitution and run for indefinitely as president. He wants to be the next Mobutu. But he's the only one who believes that. In fact, he can't defeat M23 militarily. But of course, his Minister of Finance said that they had 5 billion francs to wage war against Rwanda. He said it on television.$5 billion to wage war against Rwanda. He said this on French television. Someone who has$5 billion, it's a very poor country, people don't have running water. But someone who says they have$5 billion to wage a war, there's this huge military machinery of people who are keen to have a bit of a slice on that five billion. Those are the people who are drumming up for war, those are the people who are telling Chisekedi you can win this war. So he's going to attempt to attack M23 again and he's going to try to bomb Rwanda again. That will be the end of the war.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

Why?

SPEAKER_03 16:04

Because he's going to lose major cities. On the other hand, Rwanda is going to face sanctions. What we face are not sanctions. Rwanda is going to face sanctions soon. Bigger sanctions. Because do you know what the president said? They gave intelligence to the Americans.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

The president of where?

SPEAKER_03 16:26

Of Rwanda in an interview with General Freak that came out today. He said they gave intelligence to the Americans, the mediators, so Doha and Washington. They told them Burundians and Congolese are amassing troops and drones and things in Uvira, which is at the border with Rwanda.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

No, it's not.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

It's not far from border.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

It's quite a distance. No, it's more, it's more, it's it's closer to Burundi.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

Burundi, but when it's when you say closer to Burundi, it's closer to Rwanda. If you are amassing weapons and things in Kisangani or in Walikale, it's not a direct threat to Rwanda. Uvira is some, it's not actually you can cross on foot. Some people used to cross from Rwanda to Uvira. I know, I know, I know, I have family members during during the 1959 when Rwanda fled, they went to Uvira on foot from Rwanda. So Rwanda furnished intelligence to the Americans, the Qataris, and told them Chisekedi and Burundi are amassing weapons and soldiers in Uvira. Please told them after we have signed, please tell them to stop. The Americans and the people who are the powers that might be chose not to act. So the president tells you we told them that a Nimanan threat against us was being mounted, they did not act upon it. We cannot allow that to happen.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Maybe let's let's let's you know one of the things that we never really do is interrogate some of these things, right? So let's let's interrogate this. So I'm a sovereign nation. Yes, I have a rebel movement that's causing me problems. Why should I not be able to because you're a lawyer? So why should I, as a sovereign nation, not be allowed to attack an unlawful group? Why should it be an issue? Because one of the things that uh that that's that's interesting, yeah, right. So one of the things that is interesting for me is you're talking about the Washington, some of the the things around the Washington Agreement, but the Washington Agreement was between two sovereigns, Ronda and the DRC. M23 was not part of that deal. The M23 issue is a Doha issue. Why get involved with that? Why why why why is that a problem that's a good idea? No, I understood your question perfectly.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

So let me tell you something. National sovereignty. The first after the creation of the organization of African Unity, the first resolution was one of non-interference in foreign borders. National sovereignty is uh and the is uh customary international law. But then that was the understanding after the UN Charter and the AU Charter and the OAU Charter both enshrined territorial integrity and national sovereignty. The problem is that later on it so happened that states, nations turned against their own citizens and started killing them. In virtue of national sovereignty and territorial integrity, the United Nations and the African Union were unable to act. So the law has since evolved. The genocide against the Tutsi being one, the cases of Sudan and South Sudan creation being another, uh, Eritrea being another, so African law, international law has since evolved because it turned out the reason people believed in non-interference, national sovereignty, and territorial integrity is because they believed that the state was the main and the sole guantor of the safety of all its citizens. In fact, Muali Munyerere, one of the authors of those principles, regrets in an interview. He said, when we said respect those borders, we should have said respect the people, peoples in plural within those borders. So, Sunny, today there's a new precept, concept of international law that has not been enshrined as international law, but it's international practice. It's a principle called responsibility to protect. That means, and this was created after Rwanda, the genocide against the Tuti happened in Rwanda and no country interfered in virtue of territorial integrity and national sovereignty. Responsibility to protect is a principle that says no country should stand idle while another country is turning against its own citizens, sure, minorities. So, in virtue of the responsibility to protect process, normally every country in the world, the moment the DRC says yes, admits that they work with FDLR, they have waived. Their national sovereignty and territorial integrity. Because harboring a terrorist organization recognized as such and collaborating with it is undermining, waives your own claim to national sovereignty.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

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SPEAKER_03 23:24

If in African, there's an African charter on particular African charter on the particular case of African refugees that says a country receiving refugees shall not be interpreted as an act of aggression towards another country. Right? And the right to know the full man. We cannot take refugees here and tell them go back to your country if we believe that their safety is not going to be guaranteed. However, the moment the this the host country must not allow this the refugees to take up weapons and conduct acts of aggression against their home country. In fact, the the charter encourages an international law, the Vienna Convention, no sorry, the Geneva Convention, that they should be placed at 150 kilometers away from the border of their country of origin. So this is law, but let's I'm not going to give you a lecture of law. Let's talk about what is happening in Congo and what because you're the one who mentioned Uvira. Ovira. So what will happen is that Chiseked is going to try to attack M23 again. Massive attack soon.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

And which is his right?

SPEAKER_03 24:48

Which is his right? Absolutely. M23, no, Chiseked is going to try again and bomb the Rwand territory.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Which isn't his right. Which is an art of war.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

And then M23 is going to collect new major cities in the Congo. International media will go up in arms. Rwanda will receive more sanctions. But at the same time, Kisangani or Kalemi or both are going to be taken. People's lives are going to be lost. Condemnation is going to happen, but then the war is going to end.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

When do you see that happening?

SPEAKER_03 25:30

Towards the end of this year. Actually, very soon during uh some people are telling me that Shisekedi intends to attack during the commemoration of the genocide against the Tutsi. Attack where? Goma and Bukavu. The commemoration starts on the 7th, so it's next week. Using what? He has spent five billion, like we said. He has Eric Prince. So he believed that the Americans are going to be.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

Eric Prince, who's actually for those who don't know?

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Yes, yes, yes. So he believes that he he went to the Americans, he gave them the four biggest mine concessions in Bombashi. The four biggest mine concessions.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

So that's cobalt, that is tin, that is copper.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

Cobalt. Copper, no, not copper, lithium. Cobalt, coltan, the three, the three T, although they don't have tanks then. But they have the two T's at least tin and tantalite and cobalt and uh lithium. He gave them four biggest mining constitutions to the Americans. When we say Americans, we talk American interests. And in exchange, what do they guarantee him? They guarantee him political support. And he has spent those four billion. So in the beginning, he was begging, he believed that the Americans somehow will bring B-2 bombers and American soldiers to die in Ruturu and Masisi. So they this they spent a lot of time disabusing him of that notion. After that, then he said, if you can't send your army, can you get us military support? They said, Yeah, yeah, we have a mercenary here called Blackwater, is spare him. So the Americans have given him Blackwater. Eric Prince is the head of Blackwater. He was retired. He was a living uh billionaire American. And then he was brought back to business by Chisekedi's 5 billion and probably further mining interests. And then he went and recruited Latin American mercenaries, Eastern European mercenaries. Some of them that were captured in Goma and let to live have come back in a different form.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

So Chisekedi has a big army of Congolese army, FDLR, and mercenaries and uh experts on drones and so it's going to be a major, major offensive.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

It can be a major offensive, but it can also end very quickly. It can you do not win a war with mercenaries and troops from uh you know the Babel Tower? The Tower of Babel. The Tower of Babel. So if people don't speak the same language, they don't have the same command. Army is a hierarchical, precise command structure. You don't bring someone who speaks English and someone who doesn't speak Iswahili, who speaks Lingala, and someone who speaks Latin American languages or Latin Spanish, and someone who who is from Poland speaks uh slave Slavic language and put them together, and FDL that speak in Rwanda and put them together and say that they're going to defeat an organized structure like the M23 that has commanders who are trained by the RDF in the started fighting during the 90s. You cannot do that. And also you can bomb with drones, but drones do not never conquer territory. You know that. The Strait of Hormuz is still closed in spite of American military might and bombing. Why? Because drones do not take Shikinshasa, there's probably no infantry in Africa that can advance. That's why the Randan Army goes to Central African Republic and to Mozambique. I went to visit the Rwand Army in Mozambique. How they managed to defeat these uh terrorists is because they are able to go into forests and do combat commando operations, mano a mano with a knife in a dark forest in the middle of the night. There's no army in Africa that can do that at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

So you've given us, I guess, a good understanding of what's happening and what's at stake. But very often.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

No, but I didn't tell you what will happen. If Gisekedi loses another big city, right? Then he will be empowered. He will come back to his own senses. There's a saying, Adam Smith, it said it's not from the generosity of the butcher, the baker, and the farmer that we expect our dinner. We do not so you don't expect your dinner because the baker and the farmer and the butcher are generous to you. You don't call for his humanity and so on. You call for his own self-interest. So basically, you pay him to give you these things. He begs so that you can pay him. He doesn't beg because he likes you. Gisekedi doesn't have an incentive to implement the Washington Accords or the Doha Codes. Because for reasons that are beyond me, the people in Kinshasa do not consider Goma and uh Bukavu, they call them Swahili phones. The people who speak Iswahili, they think that, you know, they are not part of them. The day Chisekedi loses a city that is closer to home. So if you take Kalemi, you are at the door of Lubumbashi, which is uh the safe of the Congo. If you take Isangani, you are closer to power. Then Chisekedi will be pressured to sit down. Now he won't implement the Washington or the Doha Codes. It's a waste of time, Washington and Doha Court, because he believes he can still win militarily. After he loses that military oppression, which I'm sure if I know this, M23 knows this, everybody's ready. Then he's going to implement the Washington Accords. And then the war is going to end. But if he could implement that now, the war will end tomorrow peacefully. And what will be the end? The end will be some sort of cohabitation where M23 guarantees security in Eastern Congo. They have a political, they become a political movement, and then they send politicians to Kinshasa in parliament, two, three, four seats. Nanga becomes a minister in the cabinet. You understand?

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Some kind of power sharing.

SPEAKER_03 31:37

Power sharing until this transition, which is going to be a confidence building process between Rwanda and DRC on the one hand, but also the Eastern DRC population, including the Rwandal phones and Kinshasa on the other. Five years, ten years, where you are doing confidence building, people start exchanges and programs and so on and so forth, unity and reconciliation. Ultimately, Kinshasa will recover full control of the entire country after the confidence building period. That would be the peaceful avenue to this story. That is the best case scenario for Kinshasa.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

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SPEAKER_03 33:08

Kabira called it Sudanization. That means North and South Sudan. If Shisekedi doesn't play his cards right, he is going to provoke a Sudanization of Kuekongo.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Well, that is what happens in the Congo. Let's now bring it a bit closer to home. Right now, the conflict in the Congo, for the average person living in Kigali, it's very far. Right? They read about it on Twitter, maybe Gatete makes a few tweets. Maybe our president goes on Janafique and makes a few statements here and there. But to be honest, for the average person, it's something that's far, far, far away. Life is normal for us. We go to we have drinks, we go to a bar, we we watch football in, we you know, we watch the FIFA series in in uh Maho Stadium, we we watch basketball at in at the BAL. You would think that the Kivus are a million miles away, but they're fundamentally at our doorstep. Now let's talk about something that is that's already happening at this moment. We're having this conversation on the 3rd of April. On the 1st of April, the American sanctions against the RDF and some of the individual officers came into effect. You probably, more than most, have kind of done a deep dive into the effects of that of that of those sanctions. Maybe you can help us for those who don't understand why are these sanctions harmful and how will they affect not just the RDF, but the average Mumotar, the average person on the on the street, the the young person in university, the farmer in Bujasera, the tour guide in Musanze. How do these sanctions change our lives?

SPEAKER_03 35:28

They don't, but they do, and they don't on the other. So in effect, they don't, but what are these sanctions? Let's go back to the first question. First question is we you might think that the conflict in the DRC is far away. And Rwandans continue to enjoy themselves and have FIFA series and so on. So wait, are you saying that the sanctions have no effect? Sunny, let me go answer the there's a loaded question that you asked. So the first one, as Rwandans should, the the we have an army. It's called the Rwanda Defense Force. The purpose, their job is not to police us, their job is to go at our borders, make them safe. We have a fortress. We live in a fortress. When people live in a fortress, Romans can be at our doorsteps. Oh no, sorry, not Romans.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Barbarians.

SPEAKER_03 36:19

Barbarians can be at the doors of Rome, but there are games at the Coliseum because Rome is a fortress. Barbarians at our doorstep, but we have a fortress. Therefore, we must continue with the Games, the Olympic Games, the FIFA series, because we have a fortress. We know barbarians are the doorstep, but we don't we have a Rwanda defense force. It's it's it's it's it's there. So that's fine. But it doesn't mean there's no threat. I'll tell you why. Because our way of life, and this is not Paul Kagame. People don't know history, they assume it's Paul Kagame. When Rwanda, the only time Rwanda existed without enemies is the time when Rwanda was scoring last and second last most poorest country in the world. Because our way of life, our philosophy of how we see things, we are one of the few nations in this region. I think we are the only nation. We are 1,000 years old. Uganda is not a nation, it's several nations put together, same with Tanzania. Nyarede tried to build the nation. Obviously, it's unraveled recently. The DRC is a normal gang of tribes. The other nation that we have that we've been almost identical is Burundi. And in fact, the Burundian state and kingdom also come from Rwanda, but that's another conversation that I don't want to go into. So the fact that we are a nation confers to us a civilization, culture, and so on, which creates enemies for us ultimately all the time.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Why?

SPEAKER_03 38:02

Because of difference in political philosophy. Why should that create enemies? Because human beings are designed. But the people think that fighting is bad. Human beings fight. That's what they do. You can be friends, you can be indifferent to one another, or you can fight. That's what civilization happens. Every country, you can be friends, you can be indifferent to each other, or you can fight. And Rwandans like to fight. So let's let's let's go back to. Let's go back to these sanctions. You know, people are called uh Naomiya like you. I'm called Niringabo. I Zienga was we like to fight. So I want to point that out. People, when they dance, they're dancing, it's a it's a it's a woe, it's a parade, military parade. So Rwandan has a culture of fighting, they are fighters. So that ultimately is part of the reason that we have enemies in the region.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

So we have enemies because we like fighting.

SPEAKER_03 38:57

Yes. I'm sorry, Sonny. And I want to say this because we are we we like people to be our friends or to leave us alone. If they are enemies, we fight immediately. But let's go back to the question. The question the question are they going to affect us? These were no sanctions, Sonny. They were performative. And why are they important? Wait. Is because within weeks from Trump's Donald Trump saw the seizure of Uvira as a slap in his face. Actually, Donald Trump It was. No, Donald Trump did not know. No, no, first, let's acknowledge that. Yeah, but Donald Trump did not know did not know Rwandans. He was introduced to Rwandans by baptism of fire.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

So you don't think it was a slap in the face?

SPEAKER_03 39:41

I think it was. But but the reason it was is because he did not know us. He was introduced to us by a slap in his face. So then he was like, oh my God. So that small country can do what they want. That do not can't do not do my bidding. What kind of country is that? And then so people explain to Trump in retrospect, they introduced them to Paul Kagame and Rwanda and Rwandans after effect. Because after the Washington Accords, he believed Rwanda cannot do, cannot continue to defend itself. It will do what Trump says and what Trump's friends say. But Rwanda does not do, we would we'll first die before we do what other people say. Why should we die?

SPEAKER_02 40:27

And why? Because one of the things that I I really again, we're moving away from the original question.

SPEAKER_03 40:34

No, but um we're having a conversation.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

Um I hear you, I hear you. I I want one of the things that you say was you said was that Rwanda introduced itself to Trump to Trump by the seizure of Uvira. Yes. I don't know, and maybe if looking at his character, because sometimes you also have to understand the character of the person that that you are going into a dance with, the character of Trump does not seem to be a man who is rational at all times.

SPEAKER_03 41:19

But why is that our problem?

SPEAKER_02 41:21

Because now we're going to talk about the the sanctions. When you sanction unarmed forces, but it didn't say if I may, when you sanction unarmed forces, and this is not just a random, this is a treasury department sanctions. What you're saying is that we you don't want us, we don't want you to use our dollars and use our financial system.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Thank you for giving me this opportunity. I want to put this matter to rest. Yes. Let me explain to you something. So I'm a business lawyer, this is my office. One of the jobs that I do on a daily basis is to structure your business. If you have several businesses, like you, you are a farmer, you have the wrong form, you have other businesses, you have a communications agency, you have uh you have several businesses. My job, if you come to me, which I encourage you to, I would structure your businesses in such a way that if one is sued or goes bankrupt, it does not come back to you. Do you understand that? The Rwandan Army is led by what they call the Ministry of Defense. The Ministry of Defense is a in business terms, it is a holding Ministry of Defense, Inc., Incorporated. Now it has companies, several companies. One of them is called the Rwanda Defense Force, another one is called, let's say, Horizon. I saw the list of many companies that are under the Ministry of Defense. One of the companies of the holding was so sanctioned. It does not stop the holding because they have limited liability. What did I mean? Ministry of Defense Incorporated has Rwanda Defense Force limited, Horizon Limited, and several other companies limited. If you sue one, you do not sue the holding. Therefore, for example, Rwandan Ministry of Defense, we have Rwandan peacekeepers across Africa. They are still paid in United States dollars by the United Nations, to which the United States contribute. You understand? We have troops in that are in bilateral cooperation in the Central African Republic and in Mozambique. These people are still being paid in United States dollars on bank accounts now. Because they are being paid at the holding level. They're not paid at the limited liability company level, which is RDF. That's my job as a business lawyer is to structure your business to protect you from these types of headwinds. Number two. What sanctions are they? I'll tell you what they are in effect, and then I'll tell you why they are necessary or unnecessary. They sanctioned four generals. Okay? These four generals do not have assets in the United States of America. And if they do, they are not stupid enough. They are random generals for Christ's sake. They are not Congolese generals. They are smart enough to speak to a business lawyer to structure their assets wherever they are in ways that they cannot be reached by the U.S. Treasury. They can write the businesses in their wives' names, their children's names. These people cannot be sanctioned. Relative names, oh, in my law firm's names, oh, several 25. There are ways of doing this. Number two. Because we understand American law, the Ministry of Defense or RDF can never have a camp, can never have 50% of shares in any company. Do you understand? These sanctions do not fall on our heads. Sonny we are not the Congo. People, the problem is because they put us on the same, we are never on the same. We are 1,000 years old civilization, Sunny. Rwanda is a nation of 1,000 years. These sanctions come, we know them months and months and months and months before they arrive. And when we structure our things, we do our things right. One of the things that we do is that there's no company that the RDF owns 50% of shares. Do you know why? Because we understand that the Treasury, when it sanctions, it sanctions companies in which the institution owns 50%. You will find a few individuals in Rwanda who own 10, 15, 10, 15. Ultimately they have 51%, and RDF, if it does, has 49%. We are not Congolese, Sonny. So you're saying that the sanctions will not affect number three. The sanctions will affect us. So that's that I was telling you how we mitigate them. And also I was telling you that we knew they were coming, so we we have information. Our president was the head of intelligence. Our president's training is in intelligence. How do you think we are we are we are governed? We're governed by an intelligence officer who whose main job, and he said it in an interview, that the things he can't live without is what? Is information. He has information. Even us, the citizens have information ahead of time. Now, the sanctions are reputationally damaging. Because they put us on the same literally as the aggressor.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

Because I was looking at the militaries that have had have uh been sanctioned before. You're talking about Eritrea, you're talking about Syria's so-called pariah states. Yes. So that's not good.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

That's not good. Why is it not good? And why did they happen? After the Washington Accords, I started by explaining to you Rwanda, Rwandan security operators, and Rwanda negotiators furnished to the Americans and all the mediators and all the stakeholders intelligence that Chisekedi and Burundi, Burundi and Congo were getting ready to attack Rwanda. They furnished this intelligence to the Americans and the powers that might be, but they neglected this. So M23 and Rwanda acted in their defensive measures. The problem with that, so Rwanda acted as a matter of self-preservation and national security. The problem with that is that it did appear as though it was a slap in the face of Donald Trump. What were the consequences? The DRC walked away from the Washington negotiation, and the mediator walked away from the Washington negotiation, even the mediator himself. Everybody, so in Washington, Rwanda was left at the negotiating table. The negotiator, the protagonist, that means meaning the DRC, and the mediator, meaning uh whoever the mediator is, the Massad Bulos, they all went to Trump and started drumming up for sanctions. So to empower the mediator to come back on the negotiating table and to empower the DRC to justify its return on the negotiating table, sanctions had to be taken against Rwanda. So these are performative sanctions, but they have their weight. The usefulness of these sanctions is to bring back these parties to the negotiating table. That is fine. Now they are back on the table. Rwandans and Congolese met in uh Washington, D.C. again recently, and the mediator was on the table, so the parties are negotiating. If these sanctions are the price to pay for a peaceful avenue to this conflict, let it be. Because I know some of I know all of these generals, I know them personally. I don't think any of them is affected in his life. None of them has stocks in Nvidia and Tesla and Amazon. They don't have stakes in uh Tesla and so on. So they are not really affected by this action. But they are not even travel bands. These people can still travel to the US. They just can't have assets in the US. So you understand? But so if it's the price to pay to bring the DRC back to the table and negotiate and finally implement these piece of codes, so be.

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SPEAKER_00 51:09

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SPEAKER_02 51:16

You know, Ronda has, when you hear whether it is our ambassador to the UN, Martin Ngoga, or even our president, speak about the Ronan position. They make very strong cases. They say return, allow for the return of uh Congolese refugees, let them go back home, fight hate speech against the rundown in the DRC, disarm and repatriate the FDLL. Three things super easy, and they're not easy.

SPEAKER_03 51:55

But let me finish.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Let me if I may, but those are the three things that we ask for. It makes perfect sense from our perspective, yes. And in any I I would believe anyone who is of an honest mind, but what has always been quite strange for me has been the fact that when I look at our neighbors or even the AU, the African Union, this position is not being openly endorsed. Now I want to ask you this question what does the lack of endorsement from our regional and our continental partners tell you about how this conflict is viewed across the continent and across the region?

SPEAKER_03 52:48

So people will say, I hear people saying that Rundans do not communicate their case properly, better, and speaker. Everybody knows the truth, everybody knows the problem, everybody knows the solution. But what what the question remains how much because no one in the world wants to do your bidding, Sunny. Everybody believes that you need to be happy and it's your right to be happy, right? But I don't have to contribute to your happiness. Why would I do that? Even if it does not cost me anything to contribute to your happiness, I see that don't have to. So, what we're saying here, the DRC corrupts. This world is led by power, sheer force, and money, not by goodwill and good heart and kumbaya. That's why the Dalai Lama lives in exile in uh India instead of living, he's the apostle of uh peace, but he lives in India in exile. And in China, the person leading is Xi Jinping. He doesn't appear to me to be a Buddhist and uh monk. So, Rwanda would like to live in peace and develop and thrive. Congo doesn't want that reasons that are unbeknownst to us. What we are asking them is they went into water, they they they they put their feet in water, and we want them to come out of the water with and without having wet water on their so basically one of the reasons this is difficult. So, one of the things that you need, Sunny, the problem with the DRC is because they are sowing poison, hatred within their population, which in turn is tying their hands to a peaceful solution. When you sow hate within your population, it takes you a lot of energy to get it out. So, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 54:37

FDLR is profoundly embedded within the Congolese army, but then you're not answering the question, which is I understand the Congolese, the international community, man. No, I want to know our region and Africa because when we say this, this, this, and this, at some point you start asking, is it because these other Africa, our African brothers and sisters want us to do, you know, Ronda Harm? Do we do they want you know the Congolese, uh, the uh the Congolese army to come and bomb Kigali? Do they want regime change? Is it actually what they desire silently, or is it more of their being, you know, strategically uh quiet?

SPEAKER_03 55:31

No one cares about you, about you, about Rwanda. No one cares about Rwanda, no one should care. The only people who care about Rwanda else should care about Rwanda is Rwandans. Let's leave the concept of but then there should be we should have allies though. We do, but we have allies who Ugandans are our allies, yes, no, they're not. Yes, yes, no, Mozambicans are our allies, Central African Republic is always Berlin is our ally.

SPEAKER_02 56:01

I haven't heard Mozambique speak on this on the in the AU. I haven't heard this, despite the fact that we've lost France is our ally, the United States are our allies, but listening. How does an ally also decide to sanction you?

SPEAKER_03 56:17

No, but being our allies does not mean they are enemies of other people. We are allies, uh Chinese and Americans are real rivals, they're both our allies. Did the Americans tell us not to trade with China or Russia? We are Russians, Chinese, Russians and Ukrainians are both our allies, Chinese and Americans are both our allies. Do you understand? Europe, Europe, Belgium is not our allies, our enemy, but France is our ally. Bro, you know why they are allies though? It's not because we have beautiful eyes, it's because it's because they have direct interest in being our allies. And we have direct interest in being their theirs. No one should love us. Africans are the only people I know on the planet who cry that other people don't love them. No one should.

SPEAKER_02 57:08

But maybe then the question that becomes when I think about the first Congo War, 1996, yeah, there was a coalition.

SPEAKER_03 57:16

No, if I may these people came to a coalition, there was a coalition, so all of us had interests, yes, and all our interests came together.

SPEAKER_02 57:28

Not necessarily, yes, we fought Ugandans in Congo, but that's I'm talking about I'm talking about '96. Yeah. So 96 there was a group of African states and African statesmen that decided we want to remove Mobutu Sesiseko for our own reasons. Correct. But then we all aligned on that basic interest. What I've been seeing is that at least the second Congo War we had an ally, although we had a fight with them. And here I'm talking about the Uganda, because that's when we we we were fighting against yeah, but you know why we fought? But now this now I'm looking at us and we're literally fighting the Burundians, we're fighting the Congolese, you know, South Africans, South Africans. Where have we dropped the ball?

SPEAKER_03 58:26

We haven't dropped the ball. We haven't changed, they have. But you see, also I understand them. Sonny, it is no one's interest. Let me tell you something in geopolitics. It's the no one's interest that one country becomes, especially a tiny country, becomes powerful. It is no one's interest in Africa. If we want to be powerful, we should be powerful. But don't expect everybody else to roll the carpet uh on our path. I never understand when you say powerful, we mean influential.

SPEAKER_02 58:56

We're literally uh a 14 billion dollar GDP kind. I mean, we're not that rich.

SPEAKER_03 59:03

Exactly. And so and other people who have 50 billion dollar economies are saying, why is that small? Let me tell you, do you know why? I do know why Saudi Arabia wanted to eradicate Qatar on the face of the earth the other day? The size, if you compare the size of Saudi Arabia and Qatar, is exactly the size of DRC in Rwanda. Right? Exactly. Qatar is a tiny peninsula next to Qatar, next to Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia was just tired of this small country that is making noise, that has bought the entire Paris, that has a news major, major news agency that is broadcasting and causing, broadcasting all the Arab Spring that is so influential next to it, and it's a tiny country. Saudi Arabia didn't like it. They lost. They wanted to defeat Qatar, they lost. They came crawling to Qatar because everyone said no. Saudi Arabia told people to boycott Qatar. They said no, we will boycott you. So the DRC does not have zero interest in having Rwanda emerge as an influential force of this region. They have zero interest in that. It is up to us to manage to have. So when you say we don't have friends, yes, we don't. We have friends who have no direct. So when we one of the reasons we fought in the Congo is because we went to the Congo lying to each other that we were allies. Yet everybody was pursuing their own specific national nationalistic interests. So Angola was pursuing its cabinda and national nationalistic interests. Uganda, same, Rwanda, same, Burundi, same, everybody the same. Right now, the war is happening in Goma and Bukavu. That's why Rwanda and the DRC are involved. The day we go to Kisangani, you will see Ugandans being involved because that's their border. The day we reach Kalemi, you will see Tanzania involved because that is their border. They can be involved in two ways. They will ally with M23 or they will fight M23. The day we reach Lubumbashi, Angolans will get involved. They will get involved either to fight M23 or to ally with M23. That's how geopolitics works. Every time the war comes close to your border, you have to intervene. Right now, they are not allies to us because of President Kagame is a well-spoken or intelligent man. Nobody loves, hate, so on. It's all about national interests. So we don't have South Africa was in the Congo because Chisekedi gave mining concessions to members of the NC. So they came in exchange, they came to help him. Burundi is isolated, does not have foreign currency. Chisekedi gave them money so he can use the Burundian army as mercenaries in Congo. Burundians don't hate us. Aiden don't love us. They need foreign currency so they can buy petrol. Chisekedi gives them that. They help them fight. It's that's how the world is. It's not don't love it, don't hate it. Look at it. People look at it from a very sober fashion. We want M23 to prevail because then it will guarantee national security for us. People think it's minerals. Minerals have been coming through Rwanda from time immemorial because there's no, Chisekedi has not established the railway from Eastern Congo to Western Congo, to the Atlantic Ocean. The reason minerals go through the Indian Ocean is because there's no railway that links the eastern part of the Congo to the Atlantic Ocean. So we want, it's not about minerals. Even when minerals pass through Rwanda, we can build refineries and these part of the Washington Accords and so on, so it can help us develop. But we have our own minerals as well, right? So we it is in our best interest to support M23 so that we can have safety. If the country was like Tanzania, Uganda, that are stable states that are well governed, we wouldn't need to support militias in Tanzania and Uganda because we ensure Rwanda and Uganda ensure each other's safety. No harm shall visit Uganda. No weapon raised against Uganda shall prosper in Rwanda. No weapon raised against Tanzania shall prosper in Rwanda and vice versa. However, weapon that is a sword that is raised against Rwanda is prospering in the DRC. And we can't have that. There's no sanctions, including from the Pope in the Vatican, that can stop us from preventing protecting ourselves against a sword that is being prospering in the Congo aimed at us.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:00

Hey everyone, I just want to take a moment to thank all of you who've been a part of the long form journey. Every view, comment, and subscription has helped us grow and get to where we are today. But here's the thing about 72% of the people who actually watch this podcast haven't subscribed yet. We want to keep bringing you even bigger conversations with even bigger guests, including, let's say, even the president of this country. But this milestone starts with you. Subscribing is free, but it makes a huge difference. It shows our guests that what we're building here matters and that it's worth their time appearing on my platform. So please help us and hit that subscribe button, and we'll promise to keep delivering powerful, meaningful conversations. Thank you so much. Now let's get into the episode. Let's talk about that sword. One of and and and and I want us I want us maybe to try to broaden the conversation. So after 9-11, the Bush administration then went to fight terrorism in to fight the Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. And then they said, oh, but there's also Al-Qaeda and in weapon of mass destruction and then Iraq. And now you're seeing a conversation again coming, and it's well, we we cannot allow for Iran to possibly have weapons of massive nuclear weapons and and intercontinental ballistic missiles, and now they all of this, all these moves are within the context of guaranteeing border security. Everything they say. I'm not saying that what they say is correct, but let's let's talk about what they say. They don't they although Trump has now said it's about oil, but the original conversation was about security. When I look at the Americans and how they've moved since the towers fell, I see overreach, just constant overreach. Overreach, so much overreach that they've actually caused insecurity by their need for security. That's your opinion. That's how I see it. Now I want to now bring that story here. Rhonda says our security is non-negotiable.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:58

Don't isn't there shouldn't there be a worry that our search for total security will then end up with some kind of security overreach that then causes, like we're seeing in in the Middle East, a continual, continuous, forever war against these little pieces. You know, we we are we're fighting ideology. We bring back one FDL. His son starts, speaks up from where he learned. Because it's an ideology. So we it just ends up, isn't there a risk of just perpetual war?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:41

Yes. Yes, there is. But you see, there's no such thing as overreach in search for personal security. Why? From a perspective of the person searching the security. The question is not, Sunny, it's King Yuhi Musinga who said, What do you mean? Defeat is the only bad news. It's even a book by late Alison DeForge book title. We must, we we, if the need is there, we'll match to Kinshasa 20 more times. And then what happens? And to Kampala, and to Bujrumbura, and to Daresalam, and to Nairobi, if that is what is going to guarantee us security.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:23

But then world affairs show us that that never actually works.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:28

No, it's uh that's it doesn't work how it works.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:31

Where has it worked? Where where has sometimes I just wonder about these things. I I I I ask myself these questions. It hasn't worked for the Israelis, they have the strongest military in the Middle East, but they're in they're in continual. Diplomacy, maybe? A win-win situation.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:55

Okay, so let me give you an example. To be honest, if you look at the genesis of this war when it started with the Eastern DRC, M23 came from Uganda.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:04

I mean, oh, you mean the latest iteration?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:06

The latest iteration came from Uganda, went into the DRC, got what they called Chiangzu and Runioni, and then got Bunagana on their own. Okay? Rwanda was not involved at all. Restraint was our way of life, our motto.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:30

And and if you remember correctly, we had just signed. Because you know, everyone, for people who don't follow the news, you'd think that uh President Kagame and President Sigeti have been at each other's throats from the get-go. That's not true.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:44

I went to Kinshasa with investors.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:47

I went to see And this was when? This was 2021, just before the war.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:54

So that's 2021. That's when 2021. Because I think people don't understand this.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:59

I went to Kinshasa with investors. I walked into their version of RDB. I found everybody in the office wearing motion t-shirts in homage of me, of us, of randoms bringing investors to Kinshasa. They were Ukrainian investors. I found everyone in the office of the RDB of version of Kinshasa, which is a department of the office of the President Chisekedi in Kinshasa. I found them wearing a shirt just like yours. Although this was a motion shirt. Because they were happy, Rwandans are bringing investors. Do you understand? That's how happy President Kagame lobbied the African Union and like what uh anyway. President Kagame lobbied the African Union to make Chisekedi the VP and the next chairperson of the African Union. He introduced him to the IPAC, which is the Jewish lobby in the US. Chisekedi was here. We have the Africa CEO Forum next month.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:05

I was there.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:06

Chisekedi was a keynote speaker. Right? The entire office of the investment in Kinshasa was in Kigali. They were allowed to pitch to investors in Kigali. When I was in Kinshasa doing with investors, President Kagame was in Kinshasa as well. Actually, people saw me there, they thought I went with them, with the delegation of randoms. No, I was doing my business. He was Chisekedi and President Kagame have photos holding each other's hands. When the volcano hit Goma, President Kagame offered the people who were displaced by the volcano. He offered them free housing.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:47

He actually offered them to build them housing in Goma.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:51

Yeah. We sent Rwandan construction companies to do the plans. The plans are still ready today. We were best friends. What went wrong?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:01

Aha. And who played spoiler?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:05

In whose when Rwanda is friends with the Congo? Because that's what you need to understand. Who loses? The first person to lose is Belgium. No. Yes, I'll tell you why. What happened today? Investors don't go through Rwanda anymore to go to Kinshasa. They don't go with Gatete Rwandan lawyer anymore. They go with lawyers from where? They pass through which city? I don't know. You tell me. They go through Belgium, Brussels. Minerals. If Rwanda is partnered with the Congo, one of the biggest problems, the conflict starts when? Conflict starts when there's a company called Hither that signs a joint mining and processing, mine processing agreement with the DRC to build processing plants in Rwanda. That's when Belgium and us, the old beds were off. Because Belgium processes most of the minerals that are mined in this region, including in Rwanda. The moment you start building refineries here. You remember Rwanda deciding to ban Mitoumba?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:16

That's second-hand clothes. Hand me down. Secondhand clothes.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:20

And American traders of Mitoumba lobby the American administration to sanction Rwanda. Do you remember that? It is no one's interest for Kinshas and Kigali to be friends. How will the American companies get these four concessions if there was no war in Eastern DRC?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:41

If I may, I I as you've said very clearly, diplomacy or the international relations is not it's not that it's not uh it's not a love fest. No, no, it's not, but it's about interests, yeah. And unfortunately, sometimes interests are are contradictory. So let because one of the the the to get out of the problem, you actually have to understand the problem. Because I don't think Chichakedi woke up because you don't do an about turn like that. There's there are certain steps that take you to that place. Now, I want to understand those steps. If if I may, let me so that I can like fully land this question. He is a new president trying to make peace. He wants to be the person who solved Eastern Congo. He identifies Rwanda as a major player. So much so that he reaches, I guess there are mutual both hands reached out for peace because it takes two hands to to shake and and and and come into agreement. Everything is good. And then he's also meeting the M23, right? In in in Uganda, he's he's he's telling them, okay, come to Kinshasa, let's figure out a way to to end this. The best way to make money is actually in peace.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:27

No, yes, for him, no, because when I think about this, well when you start to war has there been an audit of the five billion to fight Rwanda that uh the Minister of Finance.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:42

He could have stolen the money in in peaceful ways.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:44

No, when you act, listen.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:46

So you you think that he woke up, decided that, hey, I want to be a billionaire, therefore I will No, that's not what happened.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:54

Let me explain to you what happens when you become president of the DRC Congo. Right? On day one, you have all the good intentions in the world. You want to change the world, you want finally the DRC to become South Africa and to become Germany of Africa. That's what Shisekedi says. He wants the DRC to become Germany of Africa. That's what he wants to do on day one. On day two, right? You have people of goodwill and of bad will of the entire planet asking for an appointment with you. They tell you, I will give you this, I will give you that, I will give you this, I'll give you a villa in Spain, a castle in Spain, I'll give you a billion dollars. I'll give you this, I'll give you this, I'll give you this, I'll give your children this, I'll give your wife this, I'll give your cousin this, and I will give your country this. Right? That that is still fine because Congo is a gravy train. There's so much, so many minerals, untold amount of mineral reserves are in Congo. Untold, unfound, unfanthomable. That's the good side of the story. That was on day one, right? On day two, people come and tell you, but why are you allied of Rwanda? Small country, you're big, you're rich. Why are you allied with Kagame? Don't you know that Kagame, we can give you, you can defeat him? M23. Okay, I want to integrate. Why are you negotiating with M23? Because we agreed, no, we'll give you weapons, you'll defeat them. And you'll be held like Congolese hero after Lumumba. We'll give you guns. If Rwanda tries to help them, we'll sanction Rwanda, we'll isolate Rwanda, you will emerge as the next Mumbai but you will reign for the next 50 years. You don't have to negotiate. If you negotiate with Rwanda, you allow M23 in power, these two people, you allow them to come here, you will be seen as a weak man. Do you want to be a weak man? However, we will give you weapons, we will give you money, we will give you guns and mercenaries and technicians and everybody. And if Rwanda tries to help them, we've sanctioned Rwanda and you emerge as the person who first defeated Rwanda in the history of Congo, it's never happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:25

This you know you've just wait, wait, wait. You know, you've just created a scenario. You you literally, but then that's not necessarily true.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:33

No, but no, no, but this scenario, you know how I created this scenario? Congolese people say it publicly. They say, they say today, Chisekedi said it. He said, Americans, come to me, take all my minerals, just help me defeat Rwanda.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:52

Did he say that? But that's after the fact, not before.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:55

No, fine. But before fact, I'm telling you, these things, I know these people who do this. I the people who tell them this, I know them. President Kagame, during Unity Club, right? He said people, the United Kingdom used to take Rwandan officers and tell them you are going to be the next president of Rwanda. We are going to support you. And if Kagame touches you, we're going to sanction him. We're going to isolate him. We're talking.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:37

Do you understand?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:41

Sonny, you know how many flatters exist in the world? They sit you in a chair. So there's this thing about African dictators. So you visit a country in the US, the US in France, they sit you in this fauteuil, etc. Nice golden chair. They tell you this chair is Louis XIV's chair. And they spend some time explaining to you who Louis XIV is. A glorious French monarch, great monarch of the French period of resplendishment and rayonnement is amazing. And then they tell you about the golden chair and how old it is and how it was crafted by this major uh sculptor. And then they tell you that it's so fitting for you to be sitting in this chair because you are as great as uh you are not like these Rwandans or these Congolese. You, you are the chosen one. We chose you because you are destined for greatness. There are two things you can do. You can tell them to go to hell, like someone does consistently, or you can come out of that room believing you are actually Louis 14 and so on. So there are two types of Africans: House Negroes, two types of African leaders. Those who say, Yes, sir, I am Luis 14, and then they come out by the latest watch, wear double breasters, put a thing and drive so on, and then speak foreign languages like if they are foreigners. And there are those who tell them, Go to hell. I know who I am, I know who my people are, and it's not you. I lived in South Africa. Because I'm from Rwanda and because I have a different kind of education and upbringing, white racists would come to me and say, We like you. You are not like these South African black people. I had two choices. One is to say yes, sir, yes, sir, and help them oppress my people. The second was to speak in their face, which is what I did. So, what am I why am I telling you this, Sonny? When you hear that South Africans are xenophobes, that they are hunting down their fellow Africans, it is true and they must be held accountable. The African National Congress must be held accountable for this. However, who benefits and who provokes this? A white South African will take a Zulu person and say, I fire you, because you Zulus are lazy and drunkards and point useless. However, I'll hire these Zimbabweans, they're hardworking and smart and kind and this and that. When this Zulu man goes home, what does he say to his wife? Does he say I'm drunkard and useless and dishonest? He says, no. A Zimbabwean man came and stole my job. You understand? But the person who engineered this whole concept is the one who's benefiting from this divide and conquer. Now, Chisekedi is a victim of, and Rwanda is a victim of divide and conquer. Everybody wants the Congo. Now, the country that will is preventing the spoiler of the big feast in Congo is Rwanda. Therefore, Rwanda is the enemy.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:13

You know, you've said something, and this is the last question that I wonder about because I I I at some point I have two two two young children, and at one point I want them not to carry the burden that we've had to carry. What are their names? Furanhotani. Now do you know why I asked you that trick question? It wasn't the trick, it's because I know that you know them. But yeah, but what does those names mean? Well, so the to go back to my question. They're called fighters, your kids. Well, we can fight. There are many ways of fighting. Okay. Right? You can fight for your family, you can fight to be a better human being, you can fight to create wealth for your country and your community, you can fight to be the best kind of man or woman that you want to be. Yeah, your kids are called warriors. How I define that, that's different. Now, I I to go back to the last question that I want to ask. You you've said something, which is everyone who sits on the thrones of power in Kinshasa has all these courtesans. And every single one will fall victim to the wealth of the Congo. They will not fall victim, they will choose to fall victim. But then very often, remember, we also what we're having this discussion when in Belgium right now there is a case against a 92-year-old man, and the case being for the murder of Patricio Lumumba.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:00

So Congolese leaders have seen what you can do if you don't choose. So you don't really have a choice.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:07

See, that's you do because also Rwanda tells you. Ah, see, this is why it sounds interesting. If you go to Polkagame and say, listen, they are telling me this Rwanda tells you we will protect you. Now you have to choose two things.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:18

Well, remember's enemy. But hold on, hold on. You see, you can't you can't you our experience, our lived experience, is not necessarily the Congolese lived experience. The experience of the Congolese is that if you stand against these forces, you will be murdered, and very often you'll be murdered by your very own. Or not. Now, here's here's a here's a here's a fun quest, fun exercise. Let us assume that AFC, right? Let's because we started everything with uh the questions about everyone's end game. In the end game that AFC M23 ends up in Kinshasa, what are the chances that the Congolese crisis will come to an end? The reason I ask this is we've seen this movie before. In 1996, we put our hope, and the region put its hope, in a man who we believed was a lumumbist who had fought, quote unquote, with Sheikh Guevara. That I'm talking about uh Kabila, Kabila Muzay Kabila.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:36

We didn't read Sheik Guevara's book because it's had the book.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:40

But we believed that by putting him in the seats of power, the the new Congo could arise and the spoiler, the Congolese spoiler state would come to an end. What are the chances, in your opinion, that if the AFC, as it's constituted today, with Nanga as its head, ends up in Kinshasa as the new powers, that we don't end up in another Mosaic Kabila situation where a month, a year, two years down the line, we're again fighting for our lives as Randans. And the RDF is again.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:33

But Sani, that's why I'm telling you that your children are called in Hotani. That's why you named your children that. We have no guarantee of such thing. Let me tell you, Rwandan generals will tell you that when Kabila got to Kisangani, when M23, when Afdel seized Lubumbashi, Kabila was no longer listening to Kabila, who was he used to live at my friend at Not going to mention his name in Kigali. Okay. He used to live in his home. In home, Kabila's father. The son's job was to make coffee and tea at this guy's house. But when Kabila's son, father, Kabila's son was a Kadogo who used to shine the shoes of a Fandekaba reveal. Okay? Until he went to Kinshasa. But the day that FDL, which had no army, basically the day the RDF, Randan Patriotic Army at the time, got to Bombashi. Kabila was not listening to Rwandans anymore. Angolans came in. Ugandans were in so on. Kabila was the superstar. To the point where Mandela invited Kabila to negotiate with Mobutu in on a on a big ship. Ship, South African ship. Kabila said no. I have intelligence that uh be killed. Send the Bizima Karaha, who was his head the camp. Kabila had become a star. I have no illusion I'm not going to be a prophet, prophet of doom. I've seen Nanga, how he acts. And I've seen how I have many, many friends in AFC. Some of them are my friends. They're a bit different. I believe these are going to remain our allies. I see no reason not to.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:05

No, I want you to translate it. Because you've said something, and I think very often in African uh a lot of African wisdom is through our stories.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:16

So it's Mze Chinoa Chebe who said anecdotes are the palm oil with which stories are consumed. So translate that antidote. So the person was had a colabash full of uh local beer, Rundan beer, Rugwa. And then there was another man coming, and then he tripped, and the the calabash fell on the ground, and it the it spilled the banana wine spilt everywhere on the floor. And the man passing was like, oh, what's a shame. If you had not broken your carabash, perhaps you'd have given me some of your banana wine. This man said, No, no, no, no. Even if it was not, even if I could, I wasn't going to give you anyway. So he created the conflict out of nothing. There was no banana wine, there was no carabash, there was an opportunity to create friendship with this passerby, but he chose to tell him that he would not have given him. So I'm not going to predict conflict with the FCM23. Kabila is back, isn't he? And that shows you how graceful we are. Kabila is back today. He stabs us in the back. I told you he was carried by Afande Kabarewe. To this day, if you speak to Afande Kabarewe, he considers him as his son. Understand? But he was the first one to betray. When I tell you that generals of the RDA, of the M23, SCD, the Tutti generals who are killed in the Congo. Who do you think killed them? Isn't it Kabila? But today he comes here, we offer him security. But we do that. We offered mercenaries who are fighting. We offer FDL. We pardon people who committed genocide. That's our way of life, man. If you lay down your weapons, we forgive you. That's how we do it. We were warriors, but we have a war doctrine. If you lay down your weapons, South Africans raised their flag, didn't they? We let them pass. That's how we do fight. We fight only those who raise weapons against us. When you lay down your weapons, regardless of what you've done, we forgive you.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:23

Wasn't that the last question? That's literally the last question, and you know, I wish, and and it's fair. I'm I've not asked you to lie to me or to lie to the to the listeners or viewers. The fact of the matter is this it sounds that like in our region, because of the untold wealth of the DRC, the likelihood of actual stability will have to come at the end of a sword rather than the on the table of negotiation.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:05

And and we have to give Chisekedi an incentive to make peace with us. We haven't. And we shall, because he can make peace with us at his own impulse. Remember the Adam Smith saying that I told you about? We have to give him an opportunity to love himself. Right now, he's comfortable in his kind position because Goma and Bukavu is over there. Those people, strange Sylvia, people that are closer to Rwanda anyway. And trust, you can't trust them because. But the day the day somebody taps into his uh source of income, that's Lubumbashi and Kisangani and Kalemi, he's going to love himself, he's going to make peace with us because he was going to have an incentive. We need to furnish him with an incentive.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:56

At the point of a bayonet.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:57

Yes, sometimes. That's why your kids are called Nambara and uh and Nam Fura, my friend. Motany na Nam Fura. There's a reason. There's a reason. We don't live here because people love us. Sonny, how will I how will I? I can't stress this enough. We don't live in this region. Unfortunately, we are our way of life is a burden. We would like to a better day for ourselves and possibly for the rest of us region and Africa. We deploy. Where have we not deployed to keep peace for other societies? We have. But it's not necessarily seen with a good eye. When Rwanda deployed to Mozambique, South African media was very hostile to us, do you remember? They still are. We went to secure their region, something that they failed to achieve. That's why they deployed to our at our border. Normally, when you deploy next to a country, you write to all the countries. You state you your reason of your mission, the purpose of your mission, and you tell them, you reassure them that you are not a threat to their security, and you constantly update them on your operation. All the neighboring countries, when Rwanda deployed to Mozambique, it notified all the Tanzania, South Africa, Zimbabwe, all the countries that are river and are close to Mozambique, including perhaps Madagascar, I don't know, and informed them that we were there on a mission, defined the mission, told them that we are not a threat to them. But when they deployed at our border, they never informed us. Chistekedi removed an East African stand-by force. They never informed us. When they were defeated, they remembered us. Oh, please don't kill our soldiers. Oh, don't humiliate our army. Don't film our army when it's being disarmed and sent through Rwanda. Don't can we pass in their equipment? They always remember us when they are defeated. And when they are defeated, we always forgive them. And this does not make them our friends, it makes them even closer enemies. Unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:10

And with that, my friend, with that note, let's call an end to this third edition of the Gatiti Talks on the Long Forum. It's an absolute honor. Thank you so much for inviting me into your amazing space. Uh, for those who cannot see, I'm not recording in my usual place, which is the Kigali, the Biki Arena. I'm here uh having this conversation in your office. In your brand new office. I think it's been a few months that you've been here. Yes. Your legal cabinet, as we say in in French. It's an absolute pleasure. I fingers crossed, all your hopes and dreams for this region do not come to pass. I want there to be absolute peace. I I want less and less war because there are always prices. There are real prices to be human life. Human life. This is there's a you know, uh, we do not war. There is no there's no fundamental benefit to it, and hopefully the Americans will come to their senses. Hopefully, Kinshasa will come to its senses. Hopefully, the Ronald negotiators will do a good job in Washington, DC. And hopefully, the M23 will continue to advocate for the rights of their people, but in a way that creates real security for the region.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:55

Stability.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:56

Real stability, because that's that's the win.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:59

Do you know what Paul Kagame told Abi Ahmed? So Abi Ahmed came here at the beginning of the conflict in Ethiopia between TPLF and Abi Ahmed. He came here and told President Kagame, those people listen to you, tell them to lay down their weapons because I'm going to defeat them. President Kagame told him victory is when you and your enemy sleep side by side peacefully. Victory is when your enemy protects your peace while you protect his. Defeating the TPLF will not bring you peace. Abi did not listen. Today Abi cannot go. He controls Addis Ababa and a few and its suburbs. It's a beautiful city now, he's developed it, it looks amazing. But he can, he's he's not reached peace with the TPLF because he TPLF, even now the Amhara region are not uh enemies with him, because they are supposed to be his brother's keeper. Had he accepted victory, total victory does not exist, Sani. Total victory is when your enemy is happy, not when your enemy is defeated, especially if the enemy is your neighbor. Okay, if we we walked, we marched to Kinshasa and removed Nobutu, wasn't that total victory? Where are we now? The best thing to happen is not for M23 to win. I would rather they win because they're my cousins. But the best thing was is for Kinshasa to protect Kigali's security and for Kigali to protect Kinshasa's security is for FDLR people not to be killed, but to be reintegrated into the random society. That's victory. Victory is when your enemy becomes your protector. That's what total victory is. But victory by prevailing militarily is no victory at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:07

Facts. I do not want to add anything to that. Mr. Katete, thank you so much for joining me on the long form. It's been an absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:16

Thank you, Sunny.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:18

And hopefully, if we do sit down, because I'm I almost invite you every year. Hopefully, if I invite you again sometime in 2027, we'll be talking about the fruits of peace and how to actually invest and do deals with alongside our Congolese brethren. Thank you so much for joining me. It's been an absolute pleasure and always an honor.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:46

Thank you, Sunny. Thank you for coming. And I invite I take this opportunity to invite you and perhaps your viewers to views. It's a very good space for youth. Uh there's an at you as you can see. I hope you're gonna take some majors of the theater space, the poetry space, the library space, the art gallery, the cooking space, the meeting rooms, and cocktail lounges for everybody. So I'm gonna take an I'm taking one minute off this interview to do some publicity. But anyway, so I invite people to come. And we are not allowed as lawyers to advertise law firms. So I'm not going to do that. Yes. But the rest of the space I'm really totally allowed to advertise. So I encourage people, we have the best coffee. Gato Keza coffee is the best. We have 360 views. Nobody in Kigari has 360 views.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:46

No, let's uh as soon as we're done, I'm going to explore, I'm going to put those words to the test. I'll drink some coffee, I'll have a cocktail, and I will see if indeed the views are indeed the views.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:58

All right. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:59

Thank you so much, Katete. You're welcome. Thank you, BK Arena, for providing a venue for the long-form podcast to record. BK Arena is Ronda's leading multi-purpose venue and the go-to destination in Kigali for world-class events. Known for hosting international concerts, major sporting events, high-level conferences, and large-scale productions, BK Arena offers premium event venue alongside modern conference and meeting rooms designed to global standards. From corporate gatherings to cultural and entertainment moments, BK Arena is where Kigali hosts its biggest experiences. Keep up with them at BK Arena on socials and visit their website bkarena.rw. And that's a wrap for today's conversation. Thanks for staying with us till the very end. It really means a lot. I'd love to know what was the one moment that really stood out to you? Drop it in the comments so that we can keep the discussion going. If you want to connect with us beyond YouTube or streaming platforms, you can find us on the social media platform of your choice. And if this has sparked something for you, share it with a friend who'd love it too. Until next time, have a great week.