Trying to Enter Politics in Rwanda: Reality vs Expectation | Jessy Mugisha

This episode of The Long Form Podcast explores what it really takes to enter politics in Rwanda. Jessy Mugisha, a young independent parliamentary aspirant and businessman, shares his experience attempting to run in the 2024 elections and what he discovered about access, participation, and opportunity in the political system. 

We discuss youth engagement in Rwandan politics, the barriers facing independent candidates, and whether the system is truly open to ordinary citizens. The conversation also looks at his advocacy for street cleaners in Kigali and what it reveals about labor conditions, dignity, and social responsibility. 

This is a deeper look at governance, youth participation, and political reality in Rwanda — essential for anyone interested in East African politics, democracy, and civic engagement.

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Produced by LF Media 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:42

In London, politics is often something that people think about quietly or avoid altogether. Many people have opinions, fewer are willing to step forward. My guest today did. Jesse Majisha is a self-described politician and businessman. In 2024, as a 33-year-old, he attempted to run for parliament as an independent candidate, and in doing so, stepped into a space that many young people feel is closed, distant, or simply not for them. But his work hasn't stopped there. More recently, Jesse's been speaking out about the working conditions of street cleaners, raising questions about wages, contracts, and what dignity at work actually looks like in practice. His argument is simple that politics should be more accessible and that ordinary people, especially young people, should have a clearer path to participate in shaping the country. But that raises harder questions. How open is Rwanda's political system in reality, and what does it actually take to create change? And when does activism translate into impact and when does it not? This is a conversation about participation, responsibility, and the gap between intention and outcome. Because wanting to serve is one thing. Understanding how to do it is another. This conversation is brought to you by Akagera Medicines, a biotech company that is majority owned by the Ronan people. Akagera Medicines is not only committed to expanding access to healthcare, but also supporting conversations that inform, educate, and empower. Learn more about Akagera Medicines by scanning the QR code on your screen or by visiting their website at Akagera Medicines.com. Jesse, welcome to the LAN Forum. Thank you. You know, this is, I think, an interview that is about three years in the making. I first reached out to you in 2024 when you were about to, when you're attempting to stand for political office as an independent member of parliament. Obviously, that that did not work out because I would have then addressed you as Mr. Deputé. But you're just Mr. Jesse Majisha. Thank you so much for joining me. Let's go straight into today's conversation. You've personally said that many people complain about politics in Ronda, but then don't step forward. That's something that you've been able to do. You've stepped forward. I want you to be honest. Was your decision to step forward to put yourself into that political space driven more by conviction or by your frustration of the fact that no one your age is jumping into that rink?

SPEAKER_04 3:47

I would say it's uh a lot, and I might even quote the Bible on that. It says there's when I was a child, I did things as a child, and when I became a man, I had to do things as a man. And when you are a child of someone, everything is paid for you. Yeah. The bill is never on you. And as runners, we're also children of our leaders because they take care of us. Every bill, they sign the check, we don't, we're very carefree. But there has to come a time, that's the nature of things, that we step into those roles ourselves. We can only delay this for so long. And as runners, we have such a great privilege to have had at the head, maybe one of the greatest leaders that's ever lived, a champion of everything, a champion of youth. What other country do you know where the president is begging young people to, you know, get into everything? Politics, join ministries, promoting all our generals are like really young. It's it's so we have so much privilege, and all we need to do is heed his call and join him in that fight.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

But what you, because the fact that you're sitting here tells me that there's not a lot of people like you who've kind of walked into that space. Is there something is there something broken with this generation that you're in? Because as older people, there's that conversation that you keep hearing these kids these days, these kids these days. Yeah, what's up with that?

SPEAKER_04 5:38

I'd say obviously we have our part to play in that, and uh we still like comfortable things. Uncomfortable things entail, you know, going to a party, you know, drinking, maybe school, maybe work, but like not really participating in providing solutions or being in those positions where like people are looking at you now, and you're the uncomfortable person that has to provide solutions. When everybody, like no one really wants a lot of people, actually don't like responsibility. I wouldn't say I'm also one of those people that you know wants to be responsible and have people look at me. But push comes to shove. If no one else is stepping up, I'll step up. I've never had that problem to be like, I don't think I'm the best person. I've never thought I'm the best person in any saying, I don't think I'm the best, you know, option to be a politician. I don't think, I don't think I'm the best at anything really. But what I will do is I'll give the best of myself, the best of my effort. And one of the best of myself or the best effort I can give is just showing up, because they do say half the job is just showing up.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Let's talk about that. For you, when you define politics, what does politics mean for you?

SPEAKER_04 7:01

Well, politics, taking a classic definition, is just the lines by which you know society governs itself. Yeah, it could be personal also. It doesn't need to be society, it's talking about personal, like what defines your decision making. And that's those are your policies. It could be like shirts too, like, you know, I choose to uh visit Rwanda, like not made in Rwanda shirts, or someone is like, I choose to wear Nike or all of that is a per it's it's it's a policy. And and and people, I feel like we tend to overcomplicate when we're talking about uh politics because again, the lines by which you live your life. So if you break it down in that sense, everybody realizes that they're all politicians.

SPEAKER_03 7:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:52

If you like sugar, you're you know, your politics are like I like sugar. Maybe your politics are that I like three cups of sugar, three, I mean three teaspoons of sugar. So like it's not that complicated. Now, career politics is a whole different thing. Career politics is like now it becomes your job and a career path, and it involves communities and hopefully in a good sense, when it's good politics, then you're trying to improve people's lives. And sometimes people are just like in any other walk of life, some people join those with selfish interests, where they're just like they're looking for the position and not the service, not the job. They just want the the perks, exactly, and not uh the actual work. So I feel like sometimes, and especially in serious countries like ours, one of the things that I actually heard someone talk about this earlier. I think it was uh the the the the journalist Tristan uh Yangbu started telling about how like people have a reluctance to they're scared of being on the yellow paper. And it's true, because here you know there's accountability. Like you, this is not one of those places where you're just coming in and sitting on a job. Like you might get away with a lot of things, but eventually things will come back to bite you in the ass if you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing for people.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Let's let's continue digging a bit deeper into that. You know, sometimes, yeah, especially in our culture, in our country, the word politics is a scary word. Why do you think that is so, especially for young people? It's it's it almost seems intimidating for them. And as you've said earlier, it's not that complex. It's just how we live our lives. Why, what is the disconnect between what politics is, what it should be, and the way young people, I guess, interact with it.

SPEAKER_04 10:01

I might not obviously don't know everybody's heart and everybody's mind to understand, or even the intricacies of like why. But my thoughts on that are that history plays a large part in it, especially with the genocide and prior to that. And so the as you know, the first people that uh were placed on lists were the people who stood out, the people who had opinions, the people who were.

SPEAKER_03 10:32

You're talking about the list during the kill list.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

Yeah, the kill list, the first people that they were hunting down were people that were community servants, you know, politicians. So anything that would make them stand out became a liability. So maybe I think after that, people have learned not to seek the light in that sense, and uh maybe do the work in a very calm manner in uh their small, small communities. I think that's what I think.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

So then why, if that's indeed the case, then what makes you so different? Why you know, as you said, we we there's a certain level of trauma of our past experiences and and how politics is seen or politicians are seen. You seem to have thought quite deeply about that. So why you why have you walked into that space despite the fact that yes, it will probably or maybe will be uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_04 11:41

So for the majority of not the majority, but up until maybe high school, I also lived that way. I focus on my things and and and and and just try to be the best version of myself without being involved with other people. And I'll give a lot of credit to sports, sports, especially group sports, team sports. So basketball, I play basketball, and basketball forces you to rely on other people. You can't win on your own. You literally can't, you can't do everything. And and through that process, I realized that it was much more fulfilling for me when we won as a team, or when I was also helping my teammates in things that maybe they were not better at. And that's what that also played a part into how I became a coach because I was always trying to help my teammates, and and and I realized that it became more fulfilling for me to see my my teammates succeed or make that shot or be great at something than it was for me to like make that shot. Like I got much more joy. Yes, it was just like it was much more rewarding when someone else made it than I did. And I was like, oh, maybe we've got something here because it didn't completely click. But I also have have struggled with depression, mental health issues, suicidal ideation. So I realized throughout my journey that the more I care about people, the less, like literally the whole depression part is like you're thinking about yourself more than you're thinking about other people. So if you think about other people and you invested in them and how to, you know, make their lives better, then you don't have time for yourself. Because again, all these things are like, oh, you know, me, me, me, me. And so I genuinely do this because it's in a selfish manner. Like it's it feeds me, it saves me to serve people. It's it's it's it's selfish in the greatest way possible because it keeps me alive.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

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SPEAKER_03 15:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

You could have ended up being a healthcare worker who's helping hundreds of people. You've chosen politics. Why have you made that choice? And why are you not uncomfortable? Because we we started with the the fact that our politicians are very often seen as, you know, it's risky, it's uncomfortable, you'll avoid being appointed by the the head of state, but that's not you. And I I it's it's okay. I hear what you're saying. Saying that you want to help people, but there are many ways to help people, but why politics?

SPEAKER_04 16:26

Why? Thank you. I love that you brought something I kind of talk about all the time. Like, you know, could have been the army. And I remember there was a time where like the army was having a recruitment problem, and they were passing ads everywhere. And then there was a time when not a lot of kids wanted to go into the army. And the president was telling him, like, why are you scared? You know, remember there's a time he he would be like, you know, people are you're scared to go into any army because you think you will die, but like you can also die, you know, doing any other job. You could be walking and die, yeah, you know, and and and and that for me is why like I want it to also remove that fear of reluctance of joining it. So it's not necessarily that, again, that I think I'm the best person for the job, but what I do realize or know is again, like you're pointing out, that I don't have that reluctance to join stuff or be the first one through the door. And and I think politics is just it could it could be in any other you know, field that like you said, but for for now, I feel like that's where the need or the desire is for me to best serve.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Let's talk about now, let's leave the theory of the politics and let's talk about your foray into it. In 2024, you attempted to run during the parliamentary elections, and you're trying to run as an independent candidate. Now, I want you to go into that process. How open was that system? You know, with that for uh ordinary Rondon who obviously did not, you know, have the backing of a political party or or family network, just a normal person who's saying, Hey, I want to be a member of parliament, I'm not going through the party system, I want to have my voice heard at the highest of levels. What was your experience and how open do you think it was? And did it make you feel as if it was a system that was there for you, or did it make you feel as if it was a system that was fundamentally closed for normal politically minded citizens, especially young people?

SPEAKER_04 19:11

So what I realized before, obviously going into it, I thought, you know, you just show up, do the thing, it's gonna be easy. But because I would also been asking people to do it. You'd been asking other people to stand. I'd been posting about this for years, conversations with people, and then I was like, okay, fine, let me do it, because maybe if I do it, then other people are gonna, the same people we talk about are gonna see, oh, Jesse and his shorts and his dreadlocks and head drops is doing this. If he can do it, then me who wears my suits or jeans, whatever, then I what would stop me from doing that? But what I realize is that there's a lot of hurdles that again don't make it easy for anyone to be able to do that. What are the hurdles? So, one of the hurdles is that the requirements that are re- asked of an independent candidate are not the same that are asked of candidates that are from parties. What do you mean? I uh as an independent candidate, I had to travel the entire country, all the 30 districts, to gather 600 signatures.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

In the entire country or 600 per district?

SPEAKER_04 20:27

No, 600 in the entire country, 30 per district, 12 of those signatures per district would have to be from a person who got their ID in that district as a teenager, and that had never moved or relocated since. Really? Yep. So, like it's it's that was the main one, and I feel like that it's also not fair or it doesn't align with our current social economic way of living because we all move. Like even in Higali City, you will move on.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

I mean, I won't lie. I won't lie. I got my national ID from Huye, and now I live in Gasabo.

SPEAKER_04 21:12

Yeah. You wouldn't you you wouldn't be valid for one of those 12 people per district, but you'd be among the other 600. Because and and that was the biggest part. Because I and and and and I also found that out the day in in the first few seconds when the the commissioner of National Editorial Commission, Madame Auda Gastingisba. Gastinguis? Yeah, yeah, was announcing, and she said, you know, she added that part that they it would be people who had gotten their ideas and hadn't. Does it in the rule book it's not even there, by the way? Yeah. No, it's it's oh wait, what?

SPEAKER_02 21:53

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_04 21:54

In the rule book, it's not there. They gave me a rule book and I'd gone there asking plenty times. And it says to go find out on mujerika wachenda, you know. But then literally, I've given my that book to people when I was talking about it. I'm like, hey, find the mujerika wachenda, and they can't find it.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

That does not sound like us.

SPEAKER_04 22:19

It sounds it's it sounds like it was a mistake or an omission, but it's a very important mistake.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Because it it does, and maybe I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it does seem like it's an unnecessary hurdle. Right? Like it's not a good idea. No, no, no. So it's what's the purpose. I agree.

SPEAKER_04 22:42

It's 100% it's an unnecessary hurdle because I I don't understand. I I genuinely don't, and maybe they have a reasoning for it, because again, you you you're you're meant to represent every random. This is not like Uganda where or Kenya, we have a municipality. So you're meant to represent every running in all those areas. But the fact that that rundan must have gotten the ID there, and if they hadn't gotten the ID there, but they live there now, they don't qualify to be among the 12 that are required.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

That's predictable. So that was one challenge. Did you have any other ones?

SPEAKER_04 23:23

Yeah, so I also realized financial, it's there's also a financial hurdle to that because I spent during that period of time about$500 just traveling this country.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

So give or take, now that would be about close to$800,000. Just transport.

SPEAKER_04 23:46

Yeah, transport and and uh and accommodation and and food, you know. And and I and I was thinking, thank God I could afford that. That was not a problem. But I was thinking, like, who else is affording this? Who else is taking time? Like, because people are trying to save up for other things. Who also has that money? Because I remember we were talking, there was um when they were talking about MeTwell and Jichiro and then all the increases, and they're saying like those who will be paying like a hundred, those who earn 120,000 are less than 8% in this country. That's$120,000 per month. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, if that again, at the time I didn't know, of course, but then it took me back to you know the time when I was uh doing these things. I'm like, this is not fair because like no one can afford that money. And also, I remember on the day of handing the candidature papers at NEC, there were people who were being interviewed there and they were saying they came to hand their documents, but they didn't have money to go back home. And it was very strange to me. And I was like, I understand. And the fact that only one person made it also made sense because I'm like, I know this people could didn't have money to travel the country. Like, where are they gonna get their money?

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Listen, I know just how annoying it is when, just in the middle of a really interesting conversation on YouTube, an ad appears. That frustration is why we've created the long-form Patreon. For just$4 a month, you can enjoy ad-free listening, early access to conversations a full day before they're publicly released, and you're directly supporting the work that we do here. Every episode takes time, research, and sometimes playing tickets. We don't do it for money. We do it because we genuinely believe in sharing stories and conversations that matter. If you want to be part of that journey, you can join the long-form Patreon by scanning the QR code that you can see right now on the screen or using the link in the description. And if membership is too much of an investment, you can still support us by making a one-time donation via our MTN Momo using the code registered under LF Media 95462. Thank you so much for believing in what we do. No, it it it's it's somewhat of I think a challenge when you only find a few people willing to pay that price. I wonder, in your opinion, what does that mean for our democracy? What does this mean for our governance when normal citizens are almost not given the opportunity, or there's just such huge challenges and hurdles for them to be a part of the political process? Is this something that you think is systemic? Right? So, like because of our own lessons as a country, or is this something that you think, okay, we could do better here?

SPEAKER_04 27:13

So, from what I heard from the commission, they've over the years they've been trying to make the process easier and easier. And I think there's really the will to do that. But then again, I don't think they understand what the process is like for people to go through it. Like they obviously make these rules, but they've never gone through the process. So, as people who've gone through the process, not just me, they should ask them, like, hey, now that you've gone through a process, they they didn't, I didn't even get a call to follow up, be like, I don't think, I don't know about other people, but I didn't. Like, so how did you find the process? You know, what do you think we should work on? Do you have any suggestions? You know, I feel like that should be one of those things, exactly. So, because if you're trying to, I feel like when you if they look back and they see like they only got like one person that did it, just like it'd be a failure. I know. Like a teacher who has only one student passing would be like, you know, the ministry, Reb, everybody would be like, hey, what's going on? Why is your class failing? Why do you have a 99% or 99.9% failure rate that doesn't make let's get into it? Let's find out like how do we help these students, you know, succeed? Again, that's the part. I don't feel like they're trying to help you succeed. Because if they were, then again, if they look back when quote, you would look back and be like, okay, but how are these people failing? What happened? Let's invite them, let's talk to them and be like, okay, what can we help? How can we help you succeed? Because and they will tell you that they want people to come. And I I I genuinely believe that they want people to be part of the process, but they're not asking themselves, or maybe they are, that they're not, but I just don't think that they're asking themselves why do people fail? Why did people fail this time? And how can we help them not fail?

SPEAKER_02 29:19

So moving away from the process itself, let's talk about your platform. Obviously, you weren't successful in your bid. But let's live in a world where you were. Why did you want to go into parliament? It wasn't, it it shouldn't be that I want to be in parliament just to be in parliament, just to show that I can be in parliament. There has to be an agenda. I don't want members of parliament who are there just to prove a point. Right? A thought experiment of sorts. If you had gone through the process, if you had found those signatures, if and if you had uh, what was it, 5% of uh the nationwide vote, what would you have attempted to do as an independent candidate and an independent member of parliament? How would you have stood out because there are young people in parliament, right? It's not as if whether it's the PSD or PL or RPF don't have young candidates, they do. How would you have stood out? What was your platform going to be?

SPEAKER_04 30:37

So I had a few things. And again, I don't think in my I wasn't looking at this. I am coming and I'm gonna change everything. Why not? Because I'm just one person. The parliament, I think, has 80 seats, okay? You have to get majority, I forget what it what it is to pass anything. I forget the exact number, but like one person cannot just pass a bill on their own. So you still need to work with other people. Even if you're FB, you still need to work with other parties because they can't have all the seats in the parliament, even if they win. You know, they have the highest. Our constitution does not allow for that. But like I had, I wanted to work on things like because everybody in this gig at least complaining about things like rent.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

Rent.

SPEAKER_04 31:25

Rent is a problem, and uh so rent control, legislation.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Really?

SPEAKER_04 31:31

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Because we So your platform would have been rent control, not only that, but yeah, it was just one of that. Because again, and I feel like it's one of the most pressing issues in this in our country at the time. Why do you think that? Because it's also it's also one of the, first off, I think every, not every, but most conversations I I have about with young people, they're complaining about like they can't wait to first pay their rent and then they can breathe.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:06

So once they've paid their rent, they feel like they can go hungry, they can starve. But as long as I've paid my rent. So that's also like a it's not a good way to live. And and also arbitrary rent increases are also a problem. And so, and a lot of times the landlord is doing that because he's already found someone uh else that's willing to do that. And and we need at least legislation that protects tenants to be at least rent is locked, there's no increase for certain houses. Again, there are people who are building, you know, brand new establishments or houses and or apartments, and you know, they have to pay back to back. But like if you have an old house, you know, it's you've had the house for 15, 20 years, I don't see how you're going to justify your increases or even charging$1,000 for your house. Because I mean, I guess they still find people to pay that. But again, if most 8% of runners are only earning over the ones that are earning$120,000 plus per month, then that's not a sustainable.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

I guess you know, you're it's I mean, Mabdani in New York literally ran on freezing rents and actually won. Right? So obviously it's not just an issue in in Rwanda, it's a it's a global issue. I guess just thinking about that topic, it's it's a bit challenging because in New York, maybe you'll have social housing, right? That you could say, you know what, there's rent control because there is, you know, social housing. Here, we really don't have that much social housing. I'm not going to say that we don't, but the vast majority of our properties on the market are just normal peoples. So it's a very it it's a it's a needed topic to discuss, but I I it it would be quite challenging to kind of change that because someone will say, hey, there's major issues around inflation, there's major issues around the cost of land and all this. So I would have that would have maybe been slightly challenging. Did you have other political platforms that you would have tried to push as Jesse MP?

SPEAKER_04 34:44

Yeah, so one of the other things is I feel like we need to decriminalize a lot of things. If we're decriminalize what? Well, for example, it's illegal. It's illegal to insult people in a public space. You want you want to you want people to start insulting? All the time. So whether it's on Twitter or wherever. But I don't think that, first off, we don't even have a space in jail.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

We're we're struggling with Do you do you know anyone who's been put in jail because of insulting someone else?

SPEAKER_04 35:25

Yeah, I've seen uh cases on uh online, and there's always, you know, these social media or YouTube people that have uh and they enjoy insulting each other, and then one of them will, you know, take a case and go report, and then you know they get arrested. But yeah, there's a lot of I think a lot of our criminal laws should still be like, I'm not saying people shouldn't be punished. I just I didn't say I didn't say legalize, you know. Insulting. No, I didn't say that. But we should have things like we used to. I don't know if we still have it, but what's the thing when you do community service? So and or fine, you know, because we we also that's why we're also having they're they're having plea deals. Because even the process is is the the courts are clogged up with so many unnecessary cases, it's like petty cases, so like we could plead out and and and and and and and be like, hey, okay, gendukuru, you know, go build some roads or you know, pick the try somewhere, whatever it is, but that's that we might consider punishment, but not jail. Like not not not prison where it's like you have a prison sentence now and for something that's you know.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

You know, you you've argued, again, go goes back to young people. You've argued that politics should be more accessible to young people. Now, to push back on that assertion, someone could say, but our politics, our ministers are young, our governors, oh no, our governors are not young, uh, but our uh mayors are young, our executive secretaries are young, we have young directors. It's actually some I've I've had people come from other countries and say, this is the government of young people. So I want to understand the disconnect, right? You're saying our politics should be more accessible to young people. On the other side, someone says, but always sees young people. Why does it seem that as if we are talking past each other?

SPEAKER_04 37:57

Well, it's true. We have young people, the majority of our leaders are young, and if anything, they're gonna get younger, or the percentage of our young leaders is going to increase. But I don't feel maybe I might be wrong, I don't think a lot of the people who we consider to be young look at said young people and say, I see myself. Because they seem to have been groomed for that.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Like they've already been, you know, and let's let's let's fully understand what you mean. So are you saying that the leaders that have been the young leaders that have been put into these positions, other young people look at them and don't see themselves in those people? I I guess is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_04 38:54

I think that might be the the case because so one person that I really enjoy, just remember, the the the the lady that leads RJB. Yeah, Doris. Yes. Now that's someone that young people look at and be like, ooh, I relate to Doris. Why? Because she was who she was before she got appointed, and even after she maintained that. She already had a Twitter presence where she was known for hilarious jokes. She is a funny person, you know? And and and when you communicate in again, that manner, then people look at you and they're like, oh, I can, I can, that's my person. Because like I be making jokes too with my friends, I post them. I'm not scared of how or who's watching. And then now I'm trying to edit myself. And that's where I think the the the disconnect or where I think where people don't see themselves in in some of our leaders. Clearly, Doris is one of the ones that people personally oh so I adore. Very serious about a job, but also crack a joke. So it's like we're like we edit ourselves so much that people look at you and they're like, yeah, you're young, but like, not really. Like, I I what it's it's like you're trying to, you're trying to, they look at you as like you're trying to prove the old people like you're worthy of them, and you like basically you can't sit with us, and and maybe that's just their personality. Maybe that's because not everybody is like that, not everybody is like Dor Doris. And but I feel like our generals, uh our generals are amazing. Our generals, let's uh the Ricky, Miss General Rookie, or uh Patrick Karietka. These are people, even even I I met uh General Retired Kazra Bosco, very chill person. You wouldn't even know, like the way he talks to you, very approachable, you know. Those are the people where like if a young person looks and like, okay, I feel, you know, I can see myself in you, the president himself. The president might be considered old, but the way he approaches people, he's a young person. People, young people look, look at the president and see themselves in the president.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

Hey, before we dive back into the conversation, are you a business looking to grow your reach, an organization hoping to connect with a youth, or a market leader with a great product you want people to know about? You can advertise right here on the Longform Podcast. Reach out to us on our email at commercial at sendingnayombia.com or on our phone number 0795462739. Let me repeat, on our phone number, 0795462739. We'd love to help you tell your story. And now back to the conversation. But you've talked about accessibility. You're saying that Roman politics are not accessible to young people. But then on the other side, you're saying that those young people that are in these positions are not acting or behaving in a way that I want them to act and behave.

SPEAKER_04 42:42

Don't you see it's I'm not saying me personally, but I'm just saying because you're asking me like what young people are thinking, right?

SPEAKER_02 42:50

No, I'm asking you.

SPEAKER_04 42:51

Oh me?

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 42:52

Oh no, I don't, I don't think it's inaccessible in that sense. Because again, we do have young leaders. It's it's if anything, that's also one of a our drawbacks because we've um we've put young people in these positions, and we're also one of the people who are disappointing. And and which again, you know, it's it's it's the nature of things. There's no age gap or group of people that have the monopoly on screwing up. There's no age group that has the monopoly on doing things right. So young people are also going to make mistakes. But I still think you know, they need uh they need the encouragement to because again, some people love leadership or they're not shy to join leadership when the call is made. Like, you know, the leaders we we were just talking about, all the young, amazing. Men and women we have who are young. But then just like you're asking me, like why are the young generation still scared to come in or just, you know, raise their hand? And I think that that's one of the things that are hindering them, besides, like we talked about earlier about, you know, if and when they do show up, then if there's a financial burden that comes with, then there's like hurdles that I believe to be unnecessary. Like in my case that I encountered, I encountered when I, you know, raised my hand to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

Sometimes, and this is uh just my own view of things. There is obviously, you know, one of the people that there's a few names that you have called your heroes, right? Late in Yumba. You've talked about our president, you know, he was when he started the journey towards Ronda's liberation, he was a young man. Uh the late Fred Rigemma, James Kavere, all of them were super young people. Even Muzei Tito, although we call him, you know, but he was young once when he started this journey. But when you think about those people, they were very, they were steeped in political thought and political action. Whether it's Muzei Tito, he was a socialist. You had these guys who were, you know, who were, you know, liberal. They were, they were not, they did not walk into this space because they were owed that space. They studied, they understood culture, whether it was, you know, doing deep studies and deep dives into Rundan culture and Rundan history. They were ready to be politicians. They were ready to be leaders. You know, they were well read. Now, leadership should not just be because it's my time, right? It's my country, therefore I should lead. I feel that there should be also a level of preparedness, even before you walk into that space. Do you feel in when you sit down with people your age or people slightly younger than yourself, and you're sitting around, maybe having a drink, or maybe having a cup of coffee or a cup of tea, do you believe that that level of political thought versus just you know having arguments about, you know, we wish the buses were cheaper or rent is cheaper? Is there actual depth to the conversations that young people are having in your experience, or is it just more of what I'd call grievance politics? I'm unhappy. Have you guys really thought about it's more than just grievance, it's there are levels to this. Are those the kind of conversations are those, I think, fundamentally, are those the kind of conversations that you guys are having? You know, again, I assume that there's not just you, you're you have friends and you're probably sitting down and having deep discussions. What kind of discussion, political discussions are you having? What are they grounded in?

SPEAKER_04 47:34

So I'd say it depends on circles. And there are circles in which if I start speaking and like, ah, there goes the politician again. Because again, uh, a lot of people are trying to self-soothe by avoiding circumcisions, and they think life is already hard enough. And more so when I meet with my friends, I don't want to talk about, hey, life is hard. Do you have you seen, you know, uh, moves? Do you do you realize how that's gonna impact? You you you do you know, do you know how many ways you know fertilizer is gonna become a problem? Do you realize how much how what the strategic reserves are? And and like we only have like up until like April, and then where are we gonna get the supply? Do you realize that the fact that our prices haven't like gone up is amazing that the government has that much for planning and and and alleviated this cost when every other country, like so many countries across the world, are shutting down. But like, look at us, we're writing, no one is European countries. Their governments are telling them, hey man, like stop. Can you please like just stay at home or use the bus or the train? And we'd have none of that. And to see, like, why are we taking this for granted? Like, someone actually made contingency contingency plans for this kind of situation. I was actually looking at uh the East African strategic reserves, and we are on par with Kenya, and it doesn't even make sense. We have the same amount of days worth of strategic reserves as Kenya. I was also like, how does this make sense? How does where do we get the money? How do we plan for this? And and that's also like one of those things where like we don't even take time to get in and to dig because we're just like, hey, Kagama has it, someone is doing it, so I don't need to learn or understand how these things are happening or how they're gonna factor and how that relates to inflation too. Like I was also looking at the inflation numbers, like and understanding, like I don't like it's three percent in in Uganda, Kenya, and and um, and and and and and and and and um Tanzania. And and and and and and and and then understanding, like even in Kampala, it's it goes up by 1%, and so it's it becomes four. And then like why does it cross the border and come into Rwanda and then we're in the eights? It does, like, how does that apply? And then also understanding that, you know, that has to do apparently with agriculture and and and and uh and our hospitality industry too. And it's like, and understanding how that ties into that and and and how that affects your price, or even understanding why the central bank is increasing the land, the the borrowing rates, and people, you know, lose their like, oh my god, but like, do you even understand that they're trying to help, you know, you maintain your purchasing power? Because they're seeing that things, you know, the market is inflated is uh inflating and the price are so high, and that move to make borrowing more expensive helps you at the end of the day. So, like, and but again, these are not conversations that everybody is having in these circles, or yeah, or everybody's taking time to like learn about these things and applications.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

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SPEAKER_00 52:32

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SPEAKER_02 52:40

You're obviously you've obviously taken an interest in understanding the world around you and how things are the way they are. Let's talk about why I've known you, I've known your name. It's been on my radar for the last two years or so. There's another hundreds of thousands of people who've kind of gotten to know you because of a few things over the last couple of weeks. The issue that you've highlighted, you've used your social media and your voice to highlight is the issue of street cleaners in Kigali. Now, that issue is so powerful because it's very often very visible, but often unfortunately ignored. What shocked you the most when you started speaking to individual street cleaners? It wasn't and maybe let's start even that. Why would you start speaking to them? How does that happen? Because it's I've I've seen them, I've seen them over the years. I've never maybe I say a hello, but I've never actually thought, hey, I need to sit down and and actually listen to these very often women.

SPEAKER_04 54:17

Yes. I think that's just my nature. That's just who I am. I I say hello to a lot of people. And one of the reasons I started doing it, so I went to study, I went to school in Texas, and I remember the first time I heard someone say hello to me, I was confused. I was like looking around, like, are you talking to me? And it felt, you know, great. And and people holding the door for you, just common, you know, things. Like again, it's it just seems like it's unique. Yeah, exactly. And then when you people, some of some people look at us, especially the people who who who engaged in cleaning. And now in the services. Yes, they look at us as we're unapproachable people. They look at us as people like they're basically they should be invisible and they shouldn't even disturb your existence. And that breaks my heart. So I go out of my way just to say hello. That's just it. When I'm running by or walking by. Nothing big. That's shared humanity. That's it. And and it's to be fair, sometimes maybe I don't have the you know, the energy I'm over, I'm thinking about something else, and maybe I'll forget, and they'll tell me, hey, I'm saying I'm like, oh yeah. But I say hi to most people I see on the streets, whether it's policemen, random people, but especially people who are on duty, people who are serving me. I'll go out of my way to be like, I'm to you Muslim means. So that's how it started. And then one day, one of the ladies was like, stopped me and then asked me, Can I talk to you? I said, Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

Was it a lady who had seen often? Yeah, plenty of. So she'd gotten used to your presence. Yes. I mean, you're very striking. You're super tall, you know, dreadlocks. She probably kind of uh knew your face.

SPEAKER_04 56:12

Very lovely lady, very lovely lady, honestly. One of those that goes beyond just the when I'm saying, like, you know, her face shines and she's like, How are you doing? You're good, and then what you do, and then you know, she adds much more to it than I did. I'm like, yeah, sure. And then she goes, When was this? It was last year. It might have been June or July. Okay. Um, and she's like, I had a problem that I wanted to share with you. I was like, sure, go ahead. And she goes, you know me, right? I'm like, yeah. You know the way I usually look. I'm like, yeah, of course. You look at me. Look how dirty I am. I haven't had, I have no soap to wash my to wash my clothes. I'm like, why? She's like, since the youth cooperatives have joined the system, because she was telling me they used to be part of a different other system, and now the youth cooperatives, and ever since then, like they're getting their salaries in the third week of the next month. And I was like, honestly, I thought she was making that up. Because I was like, I don't understand. I'm seeing it and I know who she is, but I'm like, it's just not processing that that's possible in this country. I've heard about it in Congo. It's like where like even people who work like in ministries, they'll take years or decades without ever seeing. So I'm like, there must be a there must be an explanation. Or so I asked some other women and they're like, yeah, like, yeah, we, you know, it's crazy because like I can't even, I have too many debts. You know, the landlords are are threatening to, you know, evict me because every, every, every, every month, and sometimes apparently, so like different sectors would pay at different times. Because the city sends the money to the sectors, apparently. So the city is sending the money. The city's sending the money. And apparently, sometimes, and usually they send three months worth of salaries to the sector. And then the sector is the one that has to give the money to the cooperatives.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

Then the cooperatives pay the women.

SPEAKER_04 58:27

Yeah. But the issue was that the city apparently had set a directive that the sectors shouldn't give money to the cooperatives unless or until the cooperatives had submitted an audit of how they spent the past money for them.

SPEAKER_02 58:47

Which makes sense because it really does. They were probably thinking just in case they're cheating, this is where we'll catch them.

SPEAKER_04 58:57

It makes a lot of sense. But the issue was, and which I asked, I was like, so why do you guys wait until the end of the month to do the audits? And they had no explanation to that. So she gives me the the lady, the gitif, gives me a number of uh where?

SPEAKER_02 59:16

Catch you. So that's the executive secretary for people who don't know of our sectors.

SPEAKER_04 59:21

Yes. And then uh I call the gentleman, his name is Danny. Oh, that was last year. Yes, it was in December. And we're talking, I'm like, so what's going on? Why do you guys have to, you know, wait until the end of the month to submit these audits? And he goes he's he tells me that they were having trouble with the accountant. He wasn't uh knowledgeable enough or familiar with the system, so they got a new accountant. I don't know if they were working together, I don't recall exactly if that was the case, but who would be better at this? So that month they were paid in December. They were paid on the 28th of December. In Jan, it went back to the same.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:10

So what it seems what it sounds to me like, right, is not that there's no money to pay these workers, there's there's no it doesn't sound like there's someone stealing their money. It is about processes, and that's where things are getting lost. I I like to move beyond because there is I I want very often sometimes we I I say we concentrate on the trees and for and ignore the forest. So let's let's kind of like widen the scope of this conversation because this is not just about the workers per se, the the street cleaners. I'd like to widen this conversation by asking you this question. What just from that story way, right? So you've gone through, you've talked to people, you've gone as far as a rib, you've tweeted, you've done this, all to be able to get people's payments on time. Because that's fundamentally what you just asked. Just pay workers on time. What does that incident or these series of incidents pertaining to the the city cleaners, what does that reveal about? What do you think it reveals about the way we treat workers? How do we how we treat labor in this country, how we respect labor?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:47

Yeah, I think there's not a because I've also been on that side of things where like you've done some work for someone and you're not getting paid. I feel like that's a common uh situation for a lot of people to run after payment. I mean, I won't lie, I've done that as well. Right? So it's not that it's not prevalent outside of even government.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:13

It no, it's everywhere. That's why I I think it's it's about our society.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:17

Yeah. And I I don't know where this comes from, to be fair. I and I don't understand. And the part that actually made me even more confused was like learning that no, they s they have three months worth of salaries waiting there. And I'm like, okay, then why are you punishing the worker for something that's your fault? For your own inefficiency. Yeah, like if if if if again they there's this term, you know, muturajikus that's being pushed everywhere, but like, which muturaje are we talking about? Because it kind of seems like it's yourself. Like you are not, you don't want to, you're not, you're not, you're not conveniencing the person you're meant to. I feel like whenever it's like you're being served, then you feel like you can take liberties. But when it's you seeking that payment for somebody else, then it's like, because I you know, when Kigali City is coming or finding people, they're like, hey, my money right now. Like, and then, you know, if if you miss, there's there's a fine. But like when it's like, oh, now the the your employees or people are working under I mean, I won't lie, it's it's a larger issue.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:35

You know, whether it's in I've I've heard uh stories about you know revenue, you'll pay your taxes on time. When it's time to get your return, your returns, you know, different thing. It's a totally different conversation. It's ah, you know, give us time, we will get it back in a couple of months. Maybe that should have been your political position.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:01

On-time payment, 20 payment.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

Hey, because I I I do think that that is something that we as a society need to talk about. Because it's not just in government, it's not just in the private sector, it's even in our homes. Absolutely. You know, your staff, you will not pay them on time. And it's become normalized. I know this because I've been around our people for 30 plus years. It's it's something that I've seen. It's so much so that when you do pay on time, ah, we have a nice, we have a good boss.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:41

I know it's amazing. Like people are so happy, and that goes to show again how much again, a lot of stresses or a lot of what people call mental issues can be solved again with money. It's being proven. And sometimes even parents are stressing out. Like when even if even when it's like finding, trying to pay for the children's school fees, you know, and then like, oh, can I get it? So because like it's it's it's not like people just want the money to sit with it. They have pressing issues, they have the you know, the the the rents, the kids, the the it's so like I feel like we don't have, we don't offer each other that common decency to even consider putting myself in your shoes and be like, ah, man, like because I think like some of them, Ghani sometimes people look at their maids and they're like, what are they gonna use that money for? I can pay them, you know, whenever. But like they are human beings, they have complex lives, they have complex needs, maybe even more complex than yours, and and and just that consideration.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:47

Hey, before we dive back into the conversation, are you a business looking to grow your reach, an organization hoping to connect with a youth, or a market leader with a great product? You want people to be able to do that? People to know that you can advertise right here on the long form podcast. Reach out to us on our email commercial and cylindryumbia.com or on our phone number 0795462739. Let me repeat it. On our phone number 0795462739. We'd love to help you tell your story. And now back to the conversation. You know, you've let's talk about the power of talking, speaking out. You've been able to use Twitter to storytell. You you know, we've always talked about you know the death of journalism and the birth of citizen journalism. Because I I think that that's what you were engaged in. You know, you you did all the things that you were supposed to. You know, you you were able to keep the anonymity of your subjects. 100%. You were able to platform them, and then you were able to use Twitter to get the message out there and then direct it to the people that you needed to direct it to. Now, in it would seem in your experiences, that approach has worked because very often you tweet, payments are made. But do you and that's good. We we let's first let's first appreciate the fact that at least there's some action. But it doesn't seem like a long-term solution to the ways of getting things done. So, how in your opinion should there be long-term change rather than us always being reactive to public censure? How do you think things should be? Again, you know, I'm I'm asking these questions like you're a leader, but you are, you are one. You you you've walked into that space, you've said that you want to be a political player. So these are the questions that a politician would get. So don't I hope it doesn't feel like I'm bullying you or asking you to speak of things that are beyond your knowledge or remit. It's this is what it means to stand in the political space. You get these questions.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:51

Yeah. I think we need, again, this is not a Rwanda-specific issue or a Higalistiti specific issue. Bureaucracy is an age-old issue since the beginning of time. We need to stop wanting to have everything give my two cents on things that don't require two cents every day, you know, and and because we have bigger issues. We have the the I'm sure the mayor, even the secretary executive, has like, and I sat in her office and it was just like she really had like a lot of things to deal with, like big things, you know. So we need to, and and maybe they they like that time to like oh decompress, or let me now think about salaries because like that's a smaller thing. But no, I feel like we need to keep the main thing, the main thing. And some of these things, again, we have automated payments. Why are we still like having to send money from Kigali City to the Umurenge sector, and then to the youth cooperative, and then to the and that, and then again, it's fine to do it like that because also it comes from a ministry of finance and blah blah blah. But the the the whole auditing part of it, again, necessary, but like why unnecessary 30 days, exactly. It's unnecessary to do this. Like, I don't know a place that runs audits every month. I've never heard of one. And again, so I'm trying to say like that's also another unnecessary step that's taking energy and resources and also like inconveniencing them. And maybe that's something if they didn't put into if they kind of made it like a quarterly audit, then it wouldn't put them in so much conflict with the workers.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:58

What what has been, you know, one of the things that people always say about us is that we don't speak out, right? So you obviously speak out. How what has been the reaction to it from people online? Has it been overly positive? Has it been negative? Do you feel like you've been attacked? Or has it been fundamentally a happy experience?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:30

Happy sailing? Yeah. Uh no, it's been everything. Just like everything is everything. Like everybody's open to critique, everybody's open to abuse, you know. People abuse the present, people critique the present, people So you're not any special. I'm not special. So there's there's been a lot of support, there's been a lot of critique, some great, some mostly personal attacks. And why? And I again I don't understand because they're like there's another I have some of them, which is so funny. It's why do you care about these women? Like, what do you got you why why why why why are you so invested in their lives? And I'm thinking, why aren't you? Like, I don't why like your critique is asking me like why I'm invested, or that I can understand you asking me, like, oh, I probably have an ulterior motive. But then again, the the position I was running for, the title, the run-in title is Inunga Ruband. That means a messenger of the of the masses. So, like basically, these ladies, by the way, they don't know this. They don't know that I try to run for parliament. It's nothing like they have no idea whatsoever. So they just saw me and then you know said, hey, let's shoot our shot because we've tried apparently they did TV1 and all. They've tried other people. It wasn't, it wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't their first choice. But yeah, so and and and but I I I think some people again, so humans are very interesting. We are very interesting beings. And a lot of times when we're attacking people, it's a cry for help, it's a cry for interaction. Can you please acknowledge me? Can we have a conversation? And once you do, they're like, oh, I'm so I didn't mean that, you know, like you know, it's like when you're walking around and apparently rundans, we love to stare. And someone would be staring at you and you wave at them, and their face just changes, like, how cool missing is that? And and so it's like we want to engage with people, but we don't know any better. Most times, so it comes out like, how can I, how can I talk to this person without sounding, you know, like the kids say a simp. Like I'm trying to kiss their ass, so I like I have to attack them first. And then it's kind of like when, you know, when people are, I used to hear this when their kids apparently boys are mean to girls because they're trying to, you know, they don't know how better to communicate to them. They're trying to get their attention. So it's it's it's we need communication skills. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:13

You know, I'm I'm just interested in knowing. Are you are your parents still alive? Yes, they are. Fantastic. You know, because I always ask that question, I never take it for granted because we're Rondans. Oh, yeah, and you just never know. Our history does not allow us to take parents for granted. How supportive of you have they been? Because this is a long and lonely journey sometimes, especially in our country, to just voice uncomfortable opinions. They could be true, but they are not the norm. Have you felt supported? Have they supported you? Hey everyone. I just want to take a moment to thank all of you who've been a part of the long form journey. Every view, comment, and subscription has helped us grow and get to where we are today. But here's the thing about 72% of the people who actually watch this podcast haven't subscribed yet. We want to keep bringing you even bigger conversations with even bigger guests, including, let's say, even the president of this country. But this milestone starts with you. Subscribing is free, but it makes a huge difference. It shows our guests that what we're building here matters and that it's worth their time appearing on my platform. So please help us and hit that subscribe button, and we'll promise to keep delivering powerful, meaningful conversations. Thank you so much. Now, let's get into the episode.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:51

You're good at your job, eh? Because uh I I I often, I mean, ever since I started this, I often reflect on my dad and and and my dad, like since I could understand words, my dad kept telling me that I was a leader, and it pissed me off because I never felt like he I had a choice. Like he was giving me a choice. It was like, no, no, no, no, no. And I don't know where that came from, but I think it might come from our history. And 59, my my parents, both parents were born in in Congo. So as refugees. I mean, their parents were refugees, and then you know, technically they're Congolese by birth. But uh, so it's it was already a hard life. My my grandfather was a leader. Actually, I come from a lot of leaders. My great uncle, my great uncle was a senator here. I have uncles in, you know, the army. So like, and sometimes you you you hear it. And and it's not that you hear it, you also feel it, but then you try to ignore it, you know, because you're like, I don't want to, I don't want to be in charge of people's problems. Like, look at people, man. Like we we're not nice to each other, we're mean to each other for no reason. It's a dog you dog world, and I'm like, I don't want to, I genuinely don't want to be a part of this world. And you here, you're always trying to tell me, go, I'm a leader, I'm supposed to leave this. I'm like, nah. So for my dad, he's always been saying that, you know, I am a leader. He's he's me like I'm supposed to. And again, I think people see leadership as some big thing, but like you're leading in your home, you're leading your friends, you're leading yourself primarily. Because you can't go out trying to get people to impact their lives in a positive way when you're not impacting your own life in a positive way, you're not making choices, whether it's financial, educating yourself, like you were talking about. Like our leaders took the time to educate themselves in social matters and economic matters and matters that affect the fabric of Rundan unity. And so if you're not putting in that work, then that's just a word. But my parents, like uh you said, my dad is being very appreciative. He's been always telling me that I was a leader. That's not any surprise to him. But my I didn't, I didn't, I didn't I didn't tell anybody I was doing this. I didn't tell my family. I I didn't even get signatures by the way from my family. No one in my family. They found out when everybody else found out. And they were like, why didn't you tell us? Like, we could have like signed for you and then help you, you know, got a signature. I was like, again, I don't like this kind of culture we have where we support people just because we know them. I used to see the Miss Rhonda thing where like you would be voting for people just because you know them, not because you know or you believe in what they're saying or in their character or their mission that they've stated. Just because I know you, now I'm going to support you. I'm like, no, I like tell me what what are you about? What's what's the substance to it? I want to meet people who don't know me, have a conversation with them, then meet me, them see, and more importantly, feel like we're talking about earlier. Because you can't lie to people. We lie to ourselves, but like it's an inside job. You're trying to convince yourself that ahumujani is uh he will help me, or the person, con men, basically. There's confidence men, like they're there when someone says something you gutima nam, or like run and say, So your mutima nam is telling you, hey, there's something wrong here, but then you're like, nah, you're overthinking it.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:51

But like again, you're so your parents were supportive, are one supportive of your political ambitions and also your mission to kind of speak out. Are they so they've just always been supportive? You are a leader, you are now walking into your true space. Is that kind of their attitude towards you?

SPEAKER_04 1:20:16

So with my dad, for sure. My mom will have this in really nice quality where like she's always trying to encourage her kids to like try different things and not like impart on you, like here's what you should do. And she's like, as long as you want to do it, I'll support you. And I think that's not a quality like that a lot of parents have. She will literally fund, you know, whatever it is you're and I used to think that's actually crazy. Like, what do you what do you mean? Like your kid says, I want this, and you're like, Yeah, sure. How do we how do we make this happen? Like, whatever it could be, she's like, hey, cool. And when you switch, it's also like, okay, great. So how do we what what do you need? And I think that's a that's that's privilege. That's a beautiful privilege to have.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:05

And that's a wonderful thing. My last question to you, and you know, thank you again so much for sitting down with me and kind of having this uh intergenerational conversation. So you encourage young people to one interest themselves in politics because fundamentally it's about their own lives, but you're also interesting them and you want them to be interested in politics because it's also about how they affect other people's lives and this community that we're trying to build. But that those politics that you're uh you're asking them to get interested in, what exactly do you think what exactly are they likely stepping into? Do you think it's a politics, and maybe this is me asking you to kind of look into the future? Because this is a conversation that will not just end today, it's also going to be probably relevant two, four, five years from now. Do you think that you're asking them, encouraging them to step into a politics, into a system that they will be able to change in a meaningful way, or are they walking into a system that will probably change them and turn them into the thing that they always wanted to not be?

SPEAKER_04 1:22:38

I think there's this quote that power is corrupting.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:43

Power corrupts power corrupts, absolutely power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:52

So also that's also a concern for myself, you know. I think it's something everybody should be concerned about. People, I mean, not just in even in every day-to-day life, any because we are all in positions of authority one way or the other. It's who we have that authority over. You know, sometimes it's your father who's an authority figure. Now you're the authority over the kids and or teacher, and it's upon you to not abuse that authority to like constantly check yourself. And that takes a lot of work because the erosion of principle is real and it's active. Like the moment you placed in certain positions, you start getting again. Some one of that corruption might be just be comfortable. You're too comfortable because you're removed from the the people. You don't, you're not, you don't meet them to hear the issues. Because again, that's another thing. Because like the president travels this country, he's constantly meeting different portions of society. He's just met the Muslims. Like, I don't know if there's any section of running society that can say they haven't met the president or haven't been addressed or had given the opportunity. So I feel like that's that would be one of the things that would help them not lose themselves. Stay close to the mission. And the mission is the people. As long as you're, you know, whatever rooms you're going into, if you still have the people at heart, you'll be fine. And and and and in in in in those moments where you walk into these rooms, like you were saying, and then you're you're you're trying to work against a set way of doing things, don't come in thinking like this is a strength, this is a marathon, because we're all trying to move together. Like, even even the people who don't understand the current need to serve in a certain way, we still need them to move together. Like, it's the same way, like this is why the president is such a brilliant man, because this whole forgiving people that killed us and then bringing them in to work the society, work with the people whose families they've murdered, bring them into the army, bring forget the army, every aspect of society. Even people who've committed the worst atrocities against their fellow runners, we still like, hey, here's my hand. Let's move together. How can I help you get rid of that mentality? Why are you trying to destroy me? Well, what happened? Like, what other country do you know where like a president can release hundreds of thousands of genocide convicts? I think that I think the biggest one was maybe, I think, maybe 2003. And it was a massive uproar. And he still had that wisdom to be like, uh-uh. We need each other. Even those people who have committed the worst, we still need them to move forward. And so, like, let's not, this isn't there's no us versus them, even in this political space where we're trying to, or we're getting into these drums. We still we have to fight the you're not better than the people that are making or mistakes because we all make mistakes. We're all we're not infallible, we're all fallible. So we have to find again communication, which is what you do. We have to find a way to disarm people and get at the core of what their issues are with words. Again, apparently wars start with words and they end with words. Facts. So that's that's literally it. We have to talk to people and try to keep each other accountable, and it's not about like just dismissing people because of done or done us some harm because they're also I I really believe at the end of the day, everybody's trying to help people. It's just at some point we run out of gas, and and there's so many distractions and and and opportunities to be corrupt, whether it's morally or even financially. So, and and that I really admire that about the president, the fact that he's such a forgiving person. And I feel like we are not as forgiving as he is, unfortunately. And we need to learn from that and see the wisdom in why, even when he was talking about divorce, he was like, wait, what do you mean you guys can't get along? Like it doesn't, it doesn't compute to him. That that because he has such a heart of trying to understand other people, even when they're hurting him, like when they're abusing him. They're like, he's trying to when he's shaking hands with all these presidents who are like actively trying to stab him in the back, and he still like calls them like, okay, I guess my people are telling me this, but since you're telling me this, I'll believe what you're saying. Like that incessant drive to still see the best. This man is, I I I genuinely don't think he's human. This this incessant drive to see the best in us, even when we are at our worst, is something I wish we could all have.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:34

So 2029. Are you standing for parliament again? That I mean, that's the next election, and that's just uh last because you it seems that you want to serve, you have a a drive to serve and to be an example. Are you gonna, you know, you've learned the tricks, you know, the first time, maybe okay, you did not know that you were supposed to do X, Y, and Z, even though, like you said, it might not make sense.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:06

Do you see yourself stunning again?

SPEAKER_04 1:29:10

Yeah, yeah, for sure. If I'm alive by then, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:14

Jesse MP 2029.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:17

100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:18

I'll vote for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:19

Thank you, sir. Appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:21

Jesse, thank you so much for joining me. This has been, I think you would probably be the second youngest person I've ever had on the long form. I think that it's super important as a society to hear from younger voices. It's not, it shouldn't always be ministers in generals and you know, 50-year-olds and 60-year-olds telling us about the things that they did in the 80s. It's also good that we have people who are speaking about the here and now and the future. And I appreciate the fact that you spent, you know, your good Friday here with me. Oh, no, no. Thank you. Thank you so much for just sharing yourself and sharing your story.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:06

Thank you for the opportunity, actually, and the interest in what I'm doing or trying to achieve to benefit or serve my fellow runners.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:19

I hope you enjoy this conversation. And maybe in 2029, when you are a big member of parliament, you'll deem it worthy of your time to sit with me again.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:32

Yeah, it's a beautiful conversation, and uh look forward to having more of these with you. Thank you so much. Thank you, sir.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:38

This conversation is brought to you by Akagera Medicines, a biotech company that is majority owned by the Ronan people. Akagera Medicines is not only committed to expanding access to healthcare, but also supporting conversations that inform, educate, and empower. Learn more about Akagera Medicines by scanning the QR code on your screen or by visiting their website at Akagera Medicines.com. And that's a wrap for today's conversation. Thanks for staying with us till the very end. It really means a lot. I'd love to know what was the one moment that really stood out to you? Drop it in the comments so that we can keep the discussion going. If you want to connect with us beyond YouTube or streaming platforms, you can find us on the social media platform of your choice. And if this has spoken something for you, share it with a friend who'd love it too. Until next time, have a great week.