The Cost of Telling the Truth: Journalism, Pressure & Power in Uganda | Canary Mugume

In this episode of The Long Form Podcast, investigative journalist Canary Mugume of NBS Television opens up about the reality of journalism in Uganda and Africa today. 

From reporting on powerful political figures to navigating public scrutiny, Mugume shares what it really means to pursue truth in an environment shaped by pressure, risk, and perception. 

We explore the challenges of speaking truth to power, the personal cost of public life, and the hidden emotional and psychological toll that comes with high-stakes reporting. 

The conversation also touches on relationships in the public eye, mental health, and the growing concern around global influence on African media narratives. This is a deep and honest look at journalism, media, politics, and truth in East Africa.

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Produced by LF Media 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

This is the moment. You know this is the big big and mommy on the yet big ones we've got. Wait, what? The long form. What did it say? The long form.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

The long form. This conversation is brought to you by Akagera Medicines, a biotech company that is majority owned by the Roman people. Akagera Medicines is not only committed to expanding access to healthcare, but also supporting conversations that inform, educate, and empower. Learn more about Akagera Medicines by scanning the QR code on your screen or by visiting their website at Akaguera Medicines.com. In today's world, it's becoming harder to tell what's real and what's performance. On social media, relationships look perfect until they're not. In the news, stories feel definitive, but often come with unseen pressure. And for journalists, the line between truth and consequence is not always clear. My guest on the long-form podcast is Kanari Mugume. Kanari, a journalist with NBS Television, a Ugandan media house, is known for his sharp reporting on politics, governance, and social issues. He has also co-created Mind Your Head, a podcast interrogating mental health. Behind his public image and persona is a more complicated reality, a career that comes with pressure, risk, and constant scrutiny, a personal life that has played out in the public eye, and a profession where telling the truth can come at a cost. So this conversation is about more than just journalism. It's about relationships, pressure, perception, and what it takes to stay honest in a world that rewards performance. Can I welcome to the Lump From Podcast? Thank you. The fact that you're here on a Saturday means a lot. You know, you work super hard all week and truly honored. And I'm speaking on behalf of just myself, but not just myself, but also the audience, that you found it necessary to sit down with me to discuss, you know, your own journey, but also journalism and your experience in it, and also being a public figure. So, first of all, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_06 2:52

It's my pleasure to be here. I respect you a lot. I listen to the podcast, and and for me it's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

Yeah. Let's let's let's go straight. Your life for the longest time has been extremely public. Right. Your relationships, your work, your image. Be honest. How much of what people think they know about you is actually true? Very little.

SPEAKER_06 3:24

Very little because we are out there and there's like a lot happening. And most of what people think they know about me is influenced by social media. I remember a couple of days ago, I was discussing it with my friend, and this person was making a whole, very respectable figure in society, appointed by the president. This person is making a comment about me, about a conversation they have not had about me or with me. And I'm wondering what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Tell me more. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_06 4:07

This person is commenting about my personal life, and uh and I'm wondering, maybe, you know, you can call me. And you know, even if I'm on air, you'd be the first person I call after the bulletin ends. Why? Because I've just seen a mist call. Like that's how close they are to me. But you've not had a conversation with me, and you're seen making comments, and I'm wondering, you know, you could just call me, have a conversation, or you could just abstain from the conversation if it's about me. So back to your question. Yeah. How much of people know, how much of people know about me? Very little. And that confirmed me. This is this is three days ago.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

So why do you think that is what is happening? Because what you're talking about almost seems like there's a public persona, there's a private one. Now, when people are talking about you, it's they're talking about what they perceive. Is it on purpose that you've almost kept your true self hidden? And then there's the more public side that you know people see on the see on the news, see on Twitter, see on social media. Is there like a reason why there's so much I guess misinformation about who you are? Is it was it because on purpose you kind of kept your private life, your private reality private?

SPEAKER_06 5:57

No. It's because I didn't know what to do. You're doing this work, this work you're passionate about. You think you're informing viewers, but you're giving them your life. I didn't know what to do when I started out journalism. And so who guides you, who tells you, don't do this, don't do that. What my entire life is out there, not entirely, but you know, the if anyone knows me, then they know who my brothers are, who my sisters are, who my family is. The only thing I've kept away from is like, you know, publishing pictures of my children. But that was after eight years of my life in public. So I didn't know what to do. Like, you know, you're just a young man. You're just 20 years old. You just trying to live a life, build a career, and in the in the so being, you do not know what is right, what is wrong, or maybe what, but also trends. You don't know what is changing. So as things happen, it comes to a point of like, wait, oh, I should not have published this. Because these guys that hype you up and give you all this hype when you're whatever, they are the same guys that are gonna say, oh, let's remind you about six years ago. This is what you said about this kind of conversation. And then you're like, oh my God, I should not have published that. But also for me, I didn't want to pop up like a robot. Like, you're just you know, you're newsy, and then that's it. I just uh like when you check my Instagram, it's very different from my TikTok, it's very different from my ex. But if you asked me if I wanted to live that life now, I would not have.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Who's a real canary?

SPEAKER_06 7:58

The real canary, I think, is the one who is misunderstood. Tell me more. The real canary is someone you can sit down like you did about an hour and and 15 minutes ago. That's a real canary. That's who you will get. That's the person who will not mind about how he sounds on air, how he, you know, mentions his his sentences and whatever when he's on air. The real canary will tell you about things you would rather not have had if he was on air. The real canary is a very, very passionate person about people. Like really passionate about people, has a big ear to people and their feelings and their situations. That's a real canary. So who's the fake one? There's no fake one.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

So are you saying that when you're saying for example, when you're on air, when you are in the public sphere, the real canary is still there. It's just a different version of him.

SPEAKER_06 9:15

It's an improved version of him because he got a chest to bag. Yeah. It's it's a version of him that is a little bit edited? No, not edited, but mindful about surrounding. And I was so glad when you said, you know, everyone should get out of the room and let's just have the real canary. Because then it it's uh I'm tired of people meeting me and then they think they know me, or they think they are meeting the canary they see on air. It's not like it's a fake one. What you see is what you get. But the thing is, no one should tell you about on air personalities and what they are in real life. Because that's that's a fox.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Yeah. Because that I think that's, you know, people want to, you know, when people like you who are constantly in the public eye, I worry, sometimes I worry about you because it seems too much. You know, and I think about what is the cost of always being on? You know, when you walk into a space, everyone knows you. When you go out running and you're sweating and you don't look your best, quote unquote, people will look at you. When you're in the shopping center, people will look at you. How does it you, especially in Uganda? I mean, you literally have one million followers on X. That's crazy. If you think about it, one million people are listening to your thoughts when you or lit are or are interacting with your content. It must be so hard to be constantly on. Here's the question: what are your secrets worth? And how far will you go to protect them? Every day, tens of thousands of hacked credentials for emails, social media, and other services are bought and sold on the dark web, all without victims suspecting a thing. If you're like me and desire some peace of mind, Threat Informant is for you. Built by Shill Tech Hub, a cybersecurity company, Threat Informant is a dark web monitoring online solution that allows you to search the deep web for hidden markets, detect your leaked data, and react before any damage is done. And here is the best part. It's available for government agencies, businesses, and individuals like myself. It's simple. If your data is out there, Threat Informant will let you know. So take control of your digital safety today and scan the QR code that you can see on your screen, or click the link in the description to sign yourself and your entire organization up. You cannot protect yourself if you don't know you're under threat. Get threat informant today.

SPEAKER_06 12:22

That's that's that's that's quite a definition constantly on. Because you see, when I say this for the first time, I've had very many moments when my boss has texted me and said, Can I know please? No. This conversation online and I listened to him as as as as as uh as uh as uh as as a big brother, as an employer, and as someone I respect highly, then I'm like, okay. Here, maybe why because you can't take that audience for granted. Because anytime it can go either way. The audience can turn on you. You know this better than me, because it was an audience that was being broadcasted to that led to the genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda. So not started, but at least expected by a broadcast. So I don't take my audience for granted. But now that I have an audience, it also becomes a burden. And I think that's what you're trying to ask. Yeah. And for me, so I'm like, okay, so, and then if you think you have one million followers on online, that's just our next. Our next, and then just our next. And then you meet people in real life. You know, you're trying to have a good time, and then someone meets you, then you have to have a tight hand grip. You have to look sharp in your eyes and and and to them and uh have the, you know, like man, you just want to try, you know, have a good time. What why? So you have to constantly stay on. Yeah. If there's anyone who is a broadcaster and is telling you that there is what you see is what you get. They're lying. You're lying. With time, I've discovered and shifted my thoughts about it. It's you just have to, because you'll meet you don't know this person, then you're like, oh wow, yeah. Oh, maybe there might be some. Then they say, Oh, I've seen you on TV, like, ah, okay. Ah, okay. Then in your mind, you've have to switch on that character. Because if they if you don't notice them, know their relative or someone you know, then you're like, hey, what's up, what's up, man? Yeah, okay, okay, okay, okay, have a good time. I hope you enjoy your meal. But then when they say, Oh, I've seen it, you're like, then you have to mind how you hold your fork.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

That's exhausting. It must be. And you're a young man, you know, going through all of that in a world of social media. To be honest, I I feel for you. I feel for the people who have to live in that reality, right? Where I'm able, you know, at uh, you know, to to wear dingy shorts and go to the supermarket. And I won't care. And I I because I'm not nothing special, no one, no one projects anything about me. So I can just be my true self at all times. But maybe, yeah. I don't I don't know if that would be true in Kigani. No, it it it actually is. Uh, and I I I think what I've tried to do as much as I can is keep my private life very private. You know, I'm I again I'm not a celebrity, I'm not trying to do that. Like my conversations are always about my guests, it's not about me. But again, I think in Rwanda we don't have a celebrity culture like that, versus I think here in Uganda. Do you agree that there's a bit of a celebrity culture here where that is what is also pushed?

SPEAKER_06 16:35

Yes. I would agree with you that we have a celebrity culture here. I don't know about Rwanda that much, even though, you know, you know, in and out. But here, yes. Even even the TV shows, radio, I listen to radio, I'm so bored. Why? Because they are constantly talking about the celebrities. You've just seen the story on X. Can you give me something new? And they're constantly talking about these celebrities. So the fact that I can do something small and it blows up, it means that everyone will be trying to do something. Even if they just edited their eyebrows. That is big news. And guess what? Big news on one station, big news everywhere, including the blogs. Copy, paste, edit, send. You have headlines all over.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

It's a double-edged sword because on the one side, that has then also created the industry that you are able to because we have to also be very careful sometimes with these conversations, right? Where the you cannot on one side, I guess, enjoy the perks that celebrity give you as someone in the public eye. You know, you get invited to parties, you get access to certain people that no one else would be able to get, you know. So I guess we we have to be careful to to not sound like we're taking our blessings for granted, you know? There are people who I think I'll probably listen to you and thinking I would cut off my small toe to be where you are.

SPEAKER_06 18:34

Yeah, I agree, Sunny. But but but you see, what people don't see is that away from all this, we I'm a friend, I'm a brother. I'm a I'm a husband. I'm a son to someone. And when those responsibilities apply, I'm stripped of my celebrity, whatever you want to call it, privilege. And and and I come down to that. When my mother calls me, I don't say what, what no, no, no, no. Everything falls down, then I have to address her as a son. And and I enjoy that more actually because it makes you more humane, personal. You even develop deeper connections. When my brother calls me, my big brother calls me, when my little sister calls me, or my elder sisters call me, I drop everything.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

To be honest, it's it's nice. To kind of become the old you before everything started, you know, before the the glitz, the glamour, the name recognition. Sit down and people remember who you truly are. And then you can also like I feel remove that coat.

SPEAKER_06 19:58

I've not changed, Sunny, but this is just an extra coating around me that I think if you're to eat cake, you begin with the icing, right? And the ice icing is always you know sweeter uh because of the sugar. And that just has to say that sometimes if the celebrity privilege can move things, then just use it. As long as you're not manipulating anyone, as long as you're not using it wrongly, as long as you're not you know carrying a gun around and reminding everyone who you are. Just use it because that's what God has given you. My mother of all people reminds me of that and tells me, gives a speech in all functions you go to and says, God has chosen you to do that. And I'm find myself really incapable of not using it because it will come to you even if you don't use it, right? You want to remind people, oh no, no, no, no, no, you want to be modest and what they're saying, no, no, no, no. You can come and sit in the front in the front seat here. You can come and do this. I'm like, okay, all right. I'll I'll take it. As long as you're not manipulating anyone.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

And truth, truth be told, you've you've I I you've paid the price for that privilege. And you pay the price every day. Heavily. You know, you you said something earlier about, you know, being a husband, and and if you can, I would like to have a conversation about that. You know, there's a growing conversation about around relationships, marriage, and domestic violence, especially in the public eye. From your experience, what happens when a relationship becomes public property?

SPEAKER_06 22:01

It's the worst thing you can ever wish for. And and I don't know. The when it becomes from worse, I don't know what it goes to. But that's that's what I can't find. Worstest is when the two people cannot realize that it has the relationship has become public property. And then they keep on trying to appease the people and whatever. And then it goes on and on and on and on. And that's extremely uh toxic.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Listen, I know just how annoying it is when, just in the middle of a really interesting conversation on YouTube, an ad appears. That frustration is why we've created the long-form Patreon. For just $4 a month, you can enjoy ad-free listening, early access to conversations a full day before they're publicly released, and you're directly supporting the work that we do here. Every episode takes time, research, and sometimes playing tickets. We don't do it for money. We do it because we genuinely believe in sharing stories and conversations that matter. If you want to be part of that journey, you can join the long form Patreon by scanning the QR code that you can see right now on the screen or using the link in the description. And if membership is too much of an investment, you can still support us by making a one-time donation via our MTN Momo using the code registered under LF Media 95462. Thank you so much for believing in what we do. How have you been able to have you been able to navigate it? I was gonna ask you, how have you been able to, but that's assuming that you you've come out, you know, out the other side. How are you navigating the reality that you find yourself in, which is public relationship? There is allegations of domestic violence. Everything is being played out on social media and the blogs, and like you said, you know, that that that news ecosystem and there's just you have to go to work every day, right? You still have to pay your bills, you still have to be someone's son, you still have to be a child's father, you still have to be someone's brother. How are you navigating this? Who are your supports? Who's giving you support? How are you trying to stay steady? You know, when when the oceans are super turbulent, how you how are you doing that?

SPEAKER_06 25:21

Well, you you told me this podcast was about how best I know Kigani. I'm kidding. You know, what what what do you see is not what it looks like. And this is when actually people need to step back and understand that what is going into social media and what is going in someone's life is not necessarily what is actually going on. Because I can put up a show. I can put up you can have an idea, especially with whatever has been going on about my relationship. First of all, my real my relationship is not public. Because if you Google the public relationship, it means something else in English. But I guess what you meant to say is, you know, some details that should have been private are out there for everyone to see, which is quite unfortunate. But I also got to a point I was like, okay, then uh, you know, I, you know, I'm a mentor to people out there. People who are unable to ask me what is going on or whatever. I'm uh I'm a son, I'm a friend to people. I'm uh I'm so many things, like many other people. So when you don't give clarity, on my WhatsApp, I I say I seek for clarity, not reputation. People who want to look a certain way on social media, they're looking for reputation. I don't seek for it. I seek clarity because when you have clarity of the mind, it's easier. It's easier to navigate life, but you're so freer in real life. So yeah, it's been heavy. I'm glad my kids are still very young. Uh I know they'll face this reality in the future, but but yeah, it's it's extremely heavy to, you know. I can imagine. Have a private life whose details are out there.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

And it's people's entertainment, you know?

SPEAKER_06 27:36

Yes. In two ways. One bloggers, so you know, so they they can do clickbaits and whatever. They don't even know anything about you. They can even get this conversation, cut it out, and then put it out there.

SPEAKER_04 27:54

But two friends, people who you consider very close to you.

SPEAKER_06 28:04

Oh, did you know Canary did this? Or did you know? I mean, you have my number. What I was telling earlier about a certain public official. You you have my number. Just call me, find out. Not that I'll tell you. But have the catacy. So it's exhausting, Sunny.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 28:27

Do you think that if you could relive if you could redo my answer is yes. If you could redo my answer is yes.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Yeah. Because I'm thinking about this. Like if you could redo the whole one of the things that I've tried to do is protect my relationships. I don't, no one knows, very few people know that who I'm married to, very few people know because I that's none of their business. I might be a private uh person, public figure at at some level, maybe, but I don't owe you anything. Yeah. If you could have played it from the beginning, like all those years back, the courtship, the would you have done, would you have decided, would you have kept cameras away from it?

SPEAKER_04 29:17

Yes. I'm now trying to redo it. Or undo it, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_06 29:27

It's just not possible. Whatever I go, even if it's just a gather fuel pump, even if it's a supermarket or my own relatives. Yeah, but it is what it is. It's a life I chose. I enjoy it. It has done for me so much, it has moved me. I extremely enjoy it now that I know about it. But guess what? I think that. Okay, been doing this for a decade, so maybe disappear for a while. But you see, you can disappear.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

I mean, you can. You can uh give yourself a separaticle, go off into one of the beautiful Ugandan mountains. Yeah, but for how long? For a year.

SPEAKER_06 30:20

I don't know. I am uh I'm such a fanatic about work and things that give me joy, which is seeing things move. One of my colleagues took a sabbatical and deactivated their account on X. And then they went away. They are back. This person is what 50 years, something, twice my age, and I see it, I get it. This is just unless you just quit and go into another country, but if you're this person, if you're sunny, you're in Kigali, you host a podcast, popular in Rwanda number one, ranked, you always be sunny in people's eyes. One thing happened to a celebrity here. There were five top five songs in the country for like five years, and then they were arrested doing something wrong. Every time that story comes up, they are associated with that incident.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

So uh maybe the Ugandan viewers and listeners know this. Who's this? What's the story?

SPEAKER_06 31:48

I only want to say his name because I I don't think it's it's relevant now. But he's a musician. Okay. He's been he had been singing for a while. He had uh gone to church to show that, you know, I did an investigation that criminalized him. But but later he went to church and then he showed the ball that he had gotten set and whatever, and then later he was shown, you know, petty petty crime. Petty crime. Oh, yes, yes, I think I I have yes, yes. So so when I looked at that story, I'm like, wait, you know, you can be this and you can be this. But guess what? This will always come up every time this comes up. Like, oh, so you know, you know this guy, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, wait, who is he? Ah, you don't remember the guy who used to do this. Then he did it. I was like, ah, so reality heats back, and I'm aware of that.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

Aren't you worried that that whatever's whatever has happened in your past will always be part of the Canary Mugume story, that whenever one day you will be the biggest journalist in Africa, but there will always be an asterisk next to your name. That you know what? Yeah, but you know, the other time, does that ever play in your mind? That you know what, no matter where I go, no matter what I do, no matter how hard I work, no matter how successful I become, no matter how successful relationships I have in the future, there'll always be but next to my name.

SPEAKER_06 33:31

Well, lucky for me, uh my butt is not in my career. My butt is not in my personal relationships. My my but comes from, you know, people want to say things about me. I do not regret anything that has happened to me in the past. Really? Yeah. How's that possible? Raised up really, really well by a very, very religious mother, single mother. I I don't, my butts are not like, oh, I did this, oh I have this, then I did this. No, no, no, no. My butts are not, it they are all about what someone has to say about me.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

You feel that you know you have your truth, and your truth is good enough for you.

SPEAKER_06 34:22

I mean, my buyer, an ex, I'm truthful, not neutral. Not a trying to prove that, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just truthful.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

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SPEAKER_06 35:19

If the genocide happened, the genocide against Satutsi happened, celebrating 32 years later, let's face it. I'm not gonna give a moral ground to the genocide deniers to say, oh, what is your story? No, I'm not that kind of person. I just want to remain truthful. And that applies for my personal life. And for me, it's such a powerful principle. Why? Because just do what is right. I've I've I've I've I've annoyed people, I've stepped on people's toes, I've I've done, but that I would not in my career or personal life to say this is a black spot. Yeah to say that everything written on me online and is black, or is people saying, oh, this person said, this person said, this person said. And for me, that that is okay with me.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

Your truth is your truth.

SPEAKER_04 36:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Let's talk about journalism. Enough about your personal life. Thank God. No, journalism is extremely high pressure. Public life is high pressure. How you know all that kind of pressure will lead people to find a way to, you know, we were talking earlier about, you know, I I want to see when I go out, I want to have a conversation with people, I want to see people, and I I'm constantly talking. And we were talking about how very often people, after a hard day's work, they just want to have a drink here in Kampala, have a secha, and just figure out a way to balance stresses and and and pressures and find some happiness in those moments. In your experience of high pressure jobs, then there's the work that you do on the side.

SPEAKER_04 37:35

Also being, you know, a mental health advocate.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

How close have you ever been personally to to breaking down?

SPEAKER_06 37:58

I've um I've broken down so many times.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:04

So there's this story that happened. There was a guy called Ziggy Wayne who was in Firebase.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 38:13

It is Bobby Wayne's, you know, crew. And then stories are circulating on how this guy was tortured. And I was plucked out. Excuse me? Tortured by who, wait? By the state. Okay. Allegedly. And eyes plucked out. Is this a new story, wait? It's an old story before COVID. Okay. Before COVID. 20 2020, 2019 story there. There about. And then Bob Byan, of course, had become this figure. He had run for member of parliament. He's showing the presidential ambitions and and and whatever. So what happened is that police releases a report. It's like this guy got an accident. I'm like, wait. You know how the opposition can be and how the state can be. And then they release statements, and the BBC is leading with that story. All the top newspapers here leading with that story. Everyone is just believing what whatever accusation is put out there. So I go and say, wait, let me go for fact-finding. Because I'm an investigative investigative journalist, and I have to like, you know, tell people the truth. What exactly is going on? So I ask police, where did this person get the accident from? Where did it happen? And then they tell me. So I go and I find eyewitnesses, people whose shops are just there about. They tell me, yeah. This guy got an accident here. What happened after? But all their responses are coordinating. Nearby clinic. I went to the clinic. I literally flew a drone on top just to show this is where the accident happened. These were the first respondents. This is the clinic, and this is CCTV of the nearby place of this guy leaving the clinic in the night, being taken to a hospital unconscious. I said, which hospital? Malago Hospital. I go to Malago Hospital, I ask for CCTV. The guy is being brought in. I have everything, everything. But the opposition in Uganda being opposition, they don't like it. So I tell the story as it happened, but with eyewitnesses, account, and all. Of course, it works for them that the story thrives, that he was tortured by the state. And then, you know, I interviewed doctors who worked on him. He later dies. He's a very close friend to Bobby Wine. Up to now, I can never look at some of the figures in the position the same. They literally held a press conference about me saying I'm being used by the state. All this happens and whatever. My workplace has then had no, you know, space for you know dealing with mental health issues that arise from the stories that you work on. I broke down.

SPEAKER_02 41:36

What happened? Like when you say you break down, walk us through that.

SPEAKER_06 41:42

I didn't want to do any story after that. That is that sensitive. Because I felt I was targeted. I felt like there was no support. The BBC apologized for running such a story without verifying after my story came out. Daily Monitor apologized. New Vision apologized. I'm like, guys, this was basic. I did not do anything. I just went to where the story happened and retold the story. You think that these guys in opposition are so lethal? I covered a story where Bobby Wine was almost killed. When he was almost killed, it was an explosive thrown onto his car. I redo the story showing where the explosive came from. Meanwhile, before that, the police has addressed the media saying in 2021 campaigns that Bobby Wine group personal bodyguards were carrying around explosives and they were targeting police officers. It didn't make sense. I redid the story and showed where it was coming from, type of you know, explosive it was, when government bought it and everything. There's an online clique that defends government online and everything, government, state, and NRI. My God. Those guys do not like to see that story. The guy the police accused of carrying around explosives was put on a wanted list. It's my story that saved him. I'm trying to show you that I can be on extreme ends of doing a story about this, doing a story about this at the same time. But when all that has gone, when the TVs have been switched off, how do I go to bed? After seeing all these comments online, being abused and my family being threatened, you know. It's heavy. So during my career, yes, I've broken down. And these are just two stories because they are quite popular. But there's a time I had to go to you know a building where they are recruiting young girls who are below 18 to go and work like sex workers. I had to put a camera on one one of our undercover people who is a girl to just go in and what I discovered is like not having children then. But what if I give back to a child? They end up in this thread.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

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SPEAKER_01 45:53

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SPEAKER_02 46:00

Walk us through that story.

SPEAKER_06 46:04

It's happening in one of the suburbs of Kampala. And you know, a girl has no idea about how they're gonna figure out their life, goes, rents a room like this. It's a bedroom, it's a it's a lodge for 20k, 20,000. And then it's up to her how many men she can take in. How old are these kids? How old are the girls? That was my story. So yeah, 15 years, 16 years, 13, 18. And then outside the room is a club where men go, and then she has to keep on coming and then going back and then and then doing that. But my investigation into that story broke me like, what if I give birth to a grandchild? Okay, fine, these are really less privileged, whatever. But when it comes to, for example, such things, you might not know how your own child might end up. Sister, relative, friend. And I was like, wait, what? 20 I interviewed, I interviewed the young lady in her in her one of lodges. I talked to her and then interviewed her. It's online. And asked her, Why do you do this? It's like, but if I don't, I have nothing to send back to the village. So how many men do you, you know, permit to and she has as many as I can. If I feel tired, I'll stop. And that's a whole night. So some of these stories, they're just stories because they win us awards.

SPEAKER_04 47:59

They are devastating now, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:06

How do you the only way to sleep sometimes is by.

SPEAKER_06 48:13

Sorry, Sunny. Given a call. We have the car at your door, it's waiting. Park your stuff. You're going to eastern Uganda. When an editor gives you such a call, you don't ask. Just park and leave. When I leave, I'm going to this story. Floods have just flushed people out of their homes and killed them. Like mudslides. So we have this beautiful mountain that's called Mountain Elgon, but when it rains, everything down the mountain is. And if you think down the mountain, you might think that people are building on the slope of the mountain. No, just down. It's a flat area, but it's a mountain. People are flushed down like fish. Okay, so I go to Eastern Ugh. Before I so when they are flushed down because of the rainy season and the waters, because of the path of the water, the water forms streams or rivers down the mountain. So when I'm reaching this particular area in the river, bodies are flying. I'm like, okay. Then they stop me, like you have to do an update, a live update. I'm like, yeah, I just saw bodies flying. There's definitely a story here. That was for me just a story. Then I reached the peak. Of the mountain. Not of the mountain, one of the heels of the mountain. And they said, yeah, stand right there. And then just give us a live report. And I'm giving a live report, you know, this is what happened. I've talked to eyewitnesses, blah blah blah. I'm standing on top of dead bodies.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Did you know that?

SPEAKER_06 50:05

Yeah. No, I didn't know before.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 50:07

So you're you're until something felt like it's not mad.

SPEAKER_04 50:10

Oh no.

unknown 50:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 50:12

I was like, shit.

SPEAKER_04 50:18

That was after the report.

SPEAKER_06 50:19

Like, okay, you're off air. Now you can go and look for another location. All the locations have dead bodies. I was standing on top of a dead body. I thought it was mad. These stories stay with us as memory, the winners' awards and whatever, but I just thought that I should pick that out because this was at the beginning of my career.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

How do you? I was gonna ask you. Think about you're telling me these horror stories, and I'm already getting disturbed by them. Now, you who's actually witnessing this, smelling this stench, feeling the emotions. And my conversation with you, I I I've noticed something about you. You you're quite an emotional person. You you you say I I would say that you if anyone knows you, you wear your heart on your sleeve. Like how you feel, it's visible, it's there. So talking to, for example, a young lady whose life has forced her to go into prostitution. It must have made you feel so bad. And then, but at the end of the day, you have to fall asleep. Right? You at least have to rest. How do you shut off those images, those sounds, those cries? How do you shut them off enough so you can sleep? Some people, you know, with soldiers, they they they call it PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. Many of them have to use alcohol just to shut everything down. How are you?

SPEAKER_04 52:31

How do you sleep? I don't sleep. Really?

unknown 52:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:37

I've never slept good six, seven years. No, yeah. Brother, how?

SPEAKER_06 52:49

How's that possible? If you go to bed and uh you have all these uh flashpoints in your head, it's it's like uh we we it's like stories, but in a very fast-paced uh uh way. Just you even think about the next story the next day.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

So it almost seems like you're it's like it seems like you're traumatized, and then because of the work that you do, the choices, you're constantly being re-traumatized.

SPEAKER_06 53:25

You don't even know what it what's happening. If there's a journalist out there and he's giving real stories like these, I remember I went to the front line of the war in Ukraine, and I was I was I was standing to next to you know a flow of blood uh with with kids' toys, meaning children that we killed, just right next there in an apartment. I was there for four days, and one of the days, while I was in Ukraine, they were targeting the city, and then they threw a rocket just the hotel next to where I was staying. How do you sleep, Tani, after that? It kind of looked like a oof. I was this is it, this is a story, you know. I remember even the CDF tweeting, asking who has allowed himself to go to Ukraine, we are from Russia and whatever. I was even worried about how to get back to the airport here because people are sending me messages, oh, they're going to be arrested at the airport and whatever. I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

You're talking about General Mohose tweeting that why is Canary in Ukraine.

SPEAKER_06 54:47

Who allowed MBS to go and report on the war and why are they in Ukraine? I just left a one-month-old baby in my house. My firstborn. But also I have to go and cover that story. But also the siren in the city just won't go off. And then the hotel sticker is just telling us to wear the best, whatever they call it. How do you sleep after that? It can take two, three days. But it never needs the mind. I am almost a soldier in a cautious by election. Just here next door. A soldier comes to me and is holding this electric wire, you know, like these electric wires, very hard and stronger, looks to me in the face and raises raises it up. And then puts it down, then offs on a boulder, then goes. And then a van follows after that, and it's holding my colleagues. I could have been a victim of that.

SPEAKER_04 55:58

How do I sleep after that?

SPEAKER_06 56:02

And the following day on Twitter, they're being promoted for doing that. How do I sleep after that? For me, it's not even about politics or whatever, it's about like the real I want to.

SPEAKER_04 56:19

For me, the most uh expert on the story is the victim who was lead the story. So it becomes uh I've not slept well.

SPEAKER_02 56:36

Do you do you take any do you do you take sleeping medication? Do you take alcohol? Do you how do you you cannot be not sleeping for that long?

SPEAKER_06 56:56

I sleep, I'm said, I do not sleep well after all these years. Yeah, uh I pride in having done this journalism career in in 10 years. It has an effect on my life, my family, my relatives, my mom, my siblings, and all of that. You know, you you you just you just you know keep living because what do you do?

SPEAKER_04 57:29

You can't stop. You have to keep moving forward. Yes. You just keep moving.

SPEAKER_02 57:39

Recently you started a a podcast called Mind Your Head, where you you talk about mental health and and how people cope. Was it because of what you were going through personally that you said, you know what, I want to create a space to have these conversations as well? Was it almost therapeutic for you to have these conversations? To talk about mental health, to talk about getting better and the pressures of life. Is it from your own experience that you said, you know what? I need to create this space.

SPEAKER_06 58:25

I feel like we hide a lot in who we are not. Uh as you kind of where you come from. Or you come from here, where you stay. In Kigali, it's about honest conversations, and that's how we've been able to find healing. Have fun in Kigali. Understand and have deeper conversations beyond covering stories there. Understand deeply what it means to have your relatives, you know, killed by your own relatives in a genocide. Understand what exactly that looks like through their eyes, right? So you're open, say let's talk. Let's talk. Let's talk about it. And let's have it annually. And and and that's where you find hating. In Uganda was so pretentious. Because after having uh very, very stressful maybe three months, and let me go grab a beer, and then you start to cope with that, and then and then it doesn't stop, and then that's 10 years. I said, wait. Uh colleague of mine came to me. First of all, I should take you back to 2019. We're going to an election in 2021 and started a podcast, and it was about politics. I mean, well, UCC didn't like it. UCC is the regulator of uh communications in Uganda. And when I say they didn't like it, you know what I'm saying? At some point I was suspended from my own broadcasting media house. Then in 2020, I started something on COVID-19. He was paused. Then I said, okay, we'll find something else. So my colleague Shila came to me and said, you know, we need to start something on mental health. And I was like, yeah. I didn't know what to call it, but yeah. I think this is the topic that UCC will never be bothered about. Then we started it. But for me, why I think I was very, very, very keen on starting it is let's bring these conversations to the center. Because they have been abandoned for a while. Can I talk to Sunny? And he talks to me honestly. Honestly, about things and how they maneuver it. Like, what's your pack? You have very beautiful boys, you're married, been together with this person for 15 years.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:21

What's your pack?

SPEAKER_06 1:01:22

I want to know. So will these people here, because this is what's up, and daily you gotta go through, they'll be like, ah, maybe I need to listen more to my partner for me to be able to have the marriage go through. Maybe at work I need to, you know, stare with now I know what toxic looks like. Or maybe I'm bipolar, I need to go for diagnosis. But these things you see that being, when you talk about mental health, first thing in Uganda, they think about the metallic hospital.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:00

When they think about ruth, they think there are mad people there. We're mentally ill.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:08

When you say we, do you include yourself in that number?

SPEAKER_06 1:02:11

I don't know. I don't diagnize myself.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:16

Have you ever sought professional therapy? Because you seem like you're carrying a lot.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:27

I don't know whether you're saying that because I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:31

Just asking. But I think as a journalist, you know, I I carry post conversations and yeah, definitely carrying a lot. Someone who started in a universal primary education, secondary education, struggled three years without joining university. I'm carrying a lot. Of course I am. It's not an excuse for anything. And then you live this life that is out there and whatever. Uh and then and then your father, and your husband, and then and and then everything is all new.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:07

And then you're like, wait, at what point did I reach this stage? It's been like a flash. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:16

But yeah, thankfully, well, before the podcast, that's when I realized, yeah, I need a professional. And I'm sold to professional health.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:29

I still do.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:30

Has it been helpful?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:33

Yeah. If you could share a little bit, what was your biggest takeaway from having and talking to a professional therapist? If there's one message that they kept coming back to when they were talking about you, what was that thing?

SPEAKER_06 1:03:54

Well, well, one, two things. One, it's a flooding. I always said I'm gonna seek for professional help, but outside the country, someone who does not know me. You come to me with your with no bias, who you start, okay. It's gonna take a while, huh? I need first trouble to get out of this courage to be able to seek. Sneak it, let's see what happens. What do you lose apart from the money that you're paying? Then I sold it, and then for me, two things one offloading, just talking. But most importantly, these people are professional in a way that they ask things that it's like doing a massage and they touch a knob, you never know I existed. And so your bald head goes all the way up to here. That's like, okay. You discover things about yourself that you know existed. Like, for example, this happened, what was your role in this? Then you start to think about you and maybe not other parties, and then for you to heal, which is for me what was most important, is to forgive yourself for yeah. But also, we worry a lot about a life that can end in a snack.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:27

Hey everyone, I just want to take a moment to thank all of you who've been a part of the long form journey. Every view, comment, and subscription has helped us grow and get to where we are today. But here's the thing about 72% of the people who actually watch this podcast haven't subscribed yet. We want to keep bringing you even bigger conversations with even bigger guests, including, let's say, even the president of this country. But this milestone starts with you. Subscribing is free. It makes a huge difference. It shows our guests that what we're building here matters and that it's worth their time appearing on my platform. So please help us and hit that subscribe button, and we'll promise to keep delivering powerful, meaningful conversations. Thank you so much. Now let's get into the episode. You know, you're one of the, you know, in some of the ads that run on my on my on my on my podcast, I I ask people to subscribe to the podcast. And then I say that, you know, by you subscribing, maybe I'll I'll I'll become a big enough platform where I'll get to be able to interview a president. You've actually interviewed a president. You've interviewed uh president uh Yorim Savani. First of all, what was that like? In terms of why? I mean, again, like you have to understand, not everyone gets to be near a seat. Not everyone gets to to be around presidential power. You know, there's they're not normal people, right? They're the heads of state. What is that experience like?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:29

Oof.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:30

That one of the highlights is my mic was taken away. A few minutes before the president arrived. First of all, you have all this nervousness, what you know, your palms are sweating, and you have all these scripts, and what first of all, I was never asked what questions. Then I was put into a in a balcony.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:57

I was put into a balcony, then Was it in uh so so that people can fully understand? So President Museveni has different homes. Ah, okay. Was it, for example, was it in Tebe? Was it in the famous Rakitura? Where was this?

SPEAKER_06 1:08:15

All right, it's a so COVID breaks out in March 2020 in Uganda. Airports are closed. March, April, May. Everyone is looking for answers. So I get this interview and then taken to the Entebe State House. He doesn't live in Entebe, he lives in Nakasero, which is right in the middle of Kampala. Entebe is next to the airport, right? So he agrees to speak to me, and then there we go. I mean, he told me 10 a.m. But at 7 a.m. I was there. But but I'd gone with a colleague of mine called Mildred, who's you know, my producer for the interview. When I get to interview, they set me up a balcony just outside. Remember, he doesn't want to be in confined spaces because of exchange of air and all COVID. So we're at an outside outdoor setting. But when we get there, we set up and everything, and I sit and I'm just waiting. So when I sit in my seat, the president arrives at the vicinity. So he first goes to, I don't know, whatever he was going, and then while he's there, he told me, we're changing venue. We're going to leave the balcony, you're going to come here in the hall. So I come in the hall. And then they set me up and sorry, and then they set me up and what and put a few minutes before the president arrives, they call me. Uh first come. Come away. So I move. They're like, so they remove my mic and they give it to my producer. I was like, no, no, no, you guys are mistaken. Actually, I'm the one interviewing. This is my producer. Like, we know. They tell my colleague Mildred, Seguan City, the one interviewing the president. I was like, guys, I'm the one who asked for the interview. They're like, yeah, yeah, we know. Anyway, they suspend me from the. And then they they said you're going to interview, you're going to produce the lady. At this point, I'm very much aware if this has happened, it probably is coming from somewhere. And I recently saw my boss Kin at a rotary event saying, Rotary event, saying that always fight for your rights, whatever you are. Don't just sit there and watch things go on. And and and I, you know, I said, ah, this is SFC. SFC is the presidential guard. For context. So this is SFC, Special Forces Command, that guards the president. They have told me to get the hell out of the chair, and I'm not interviewing the president. I'm going to get out. And I'm not going to argue with them, or else I might be kicked out. At least let me have a glimpse of him. So I ask around, there's no answers. I look for the the I.O. The I.O. is the intelligence officer and he's stationed at Enterbe State House. It's like a station.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:54

And then they tell me it's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:00

Before the president arrives, they pull me back from my back seat and give me the mic. I'm like, okay, guys, in my mind, you're trying to disorganize me. You've looked at my questions, and like nothing is really out of, like, you know, like, really? Journalists from international media houses have interviewed the president. Why are you treating me like that is in my mind? Anyway, I interview the president and then and then and then he goes. But once he arrives in the room like this, I just want to go through what room. It's like a thing about power. Because these were soldiers wearing uniforms, then they pushed further, then the guys wearing suits with their tokbox on. They arrive in the room, and I'm like, okay, it's happening. But this is after this whole disorganization has happened. So you asked, What was it like? That's what it was like. So I asked later, guys, what was that? And then someone whispered to me, we don't like what you post. So they were trying to punish you?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:11

I don't know. To date. I mean, that's pretty much what it is. They're giving you, you know, when you think about it.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:17

Yeah, but they should never have granted me the interview. If that was the case.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:20

Yes. Or maybe they were trying to show you that they could. You know, sometimes you don't the the threat of something is enough that we can take away this opportunity. Because when you when you think about it, talking to a head of state is probably when you think about what you can add to your CV as someone in the media. That is the epitome.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:48

But also to think about it was at a very heightened moment of COVID. I interviewed the president in a mask and I asked if I could put it off, and he puts his off, he refused. But also I had extremely sensitive questions on script on COVID, on oil and gas, on the economy. Then I also had personal questions about him, about the sun. So I don't know. Up to now, up to now I've never figured out what exactly. But they told me, get off. And I up to now I've never known the reason, but uh casually I just pulled someone on the side. I said, hey, what's what was that? Like we don't know, we don't like what you tweet.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:34

Yeah. Does it make you less likely to continue tweeting? Because I want to ask, one of the things that they do say about Uganda quite often is that you have a very vibrant media. What you are what I'm hearing from you is that yes, you do have a vibrant media, but it's not. Journalists don't seem to be as free as they should to speak truth to power.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:09

Speaking truth to power in Uganda has a high penalty on it. And I'm not afraid to say that. Because I've tested it. You've paid you've paid the price? Highly. I've been suspended by the regulator media. I've been, including attacks that I could link to speaking truth to power. I almost lost my life. In Kawempe. It's a pinned video on my Twitter. It's it's that it's uh, you know, it's it's it's extremely really, really, really risky. From where you come from, I hear you when you say we probably have a vibrant media.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:53

Because you see, that's the one thing, you know, in Rwanda, everyone agrees that you know what our Rwanda's media is not as vibrant, it's not as free. That is what is said. As it should. Versus, you know, Uganda, they they always say, you know, it's you can say whatever you want.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:14

No, as it should in Rwanda, because of your background, you can just go around saying things, developing and pushing narratives that could be harmful. But in Uganda, we don't have such a background, and that's okay, we're different worlds. But if you ever sit down a government minister, especially from ICT, in charge of information at all, who are the regulators of UCC, who our regulators, they'll tell you in 1986 we had two radio stations. Now we have more than 300. And then for them that's progress. You know, career person in Uganda. Can I 100% explicitly express it like it is in Kenya? I can't. Am I able to do everything as I should? I can't. Why? Because, you know, we and you know, when we talk about these things, we think the government is harsh. The corporate company is a harsher. She's gonna pay your salary if you keep investigative, investigating all these corporate companies. The government plays this role, but so corporate companies play this role. And for me, I've I've come to that reality, and and and that's okay, but that's our reality. Your reality is that you cannot allow harmful narratives to thrive on media. Why? Because they once exacerbated a narrative on the genocide, the genocide broke out against the Tutsi. In Uganda, you allow that to go on, then you'll see. You what? What do you mean? My profit has fallen by 2%. I'm losing 60 billion because of the story, and yet I spend more than a bit less than a billion on adverts at your own station? I would rather not.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:32

So they weaponize their wealth.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:34

They weaponize their profits.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:43

No, it's it's it's a tough industry you're in. And it's even tougher when you know, as African journalists, very often we're at the periphery of global affairs. But often I feel that we end up being used by global powers, whether on purpose or by mistake, to push their own narratives. So for example, I'm not saying that that's what happened, but let's say Canary goes to Ukraine. Yes, does reporting there. He's not reporting to an external audience, he's reporting to a Ugandan audience. That is foreign policy. I had last year a Ukrainian journalist, you know, come on my podcast, you know, to really push, you know, you know, these Russians, these bad, bad Russians, and we're victims and all of this. And he was literally going from country to country. He did a whole African trip talking to influencers, radios. I I think he was even here in Uganda. And I qu I knew that there's a bigger game at play. He's not here to inform, he's here to sway public perception. I know that some of these embassies fund, you know, they use the the their money to push you in a certain direction here and there. I'm not saying you, I mean African journalism as a whole. Have you ever felt that pressure to have you ever felt used as an African journalist by foreign powers? Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:06

But you know, one of my mentors, one of my most powerful mentors, uh has had a great influence on me, who you've had on the podcast, Andrew Muenda tells me, you know, it's okay. Just learn your lesson. What do you gain from that exposure? If these guys are telling you to do this and do that and do that and do that, have been able to do things, and and the outside world is questioning, but how? Or lick certain information in an exclusive story where diplomats have been, and then everyone is wondering, but how? Government would never it works against them, right? So, yeah, you yeah, yeah, you know, and and one thing I've discovered is that Sunny, all of a sudden you start getting invitations to be part of programs, fellowships, and whatever because of your podcast. But you know, when you're young and you're a journalist, and and I'm not saying even if I was 40 years, like I would turn them down, but just go in. Like my mentor, Andrew Mwenda said, get in, learn your lesson, get out. But just be careful. Do they do of course they do? And they look forward to really successful people, and then they want to they want you to attribute your success to them. And and all of a sudden you have all these offers and what and you know, and they want you to put it uh put all those uh successes in in your profile. Oh, I am this and this fellow, all that what are we learning a lot? How we come back after all these offers and uh being part of these programs, extremely important because it will even be an African program, but you'll not be sponsored by an African or an African organization or an African country. Because African country don't, for whatever reason, I don't know what it is like in Kigade. If there's one, please let me know, I'll join. A fellowship, a program that is really, you know, grooming young people on how to be leaders of tomorrow. I'm proudly part of one. It's it's it was launched in Kigade, but it's Uganda, the Low Africa program. The one that uh some of the people you posted on the podcast have been part of. So for me, but that was then. Now in my next chapter of life, I have to decide whether I want to be part of these things or not. If I am, then how do I contribute to them as opposed to them? Linking.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:15

Using you. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:16

Yeah. No, it's using. No, no, it's what it is. It's what it is, Sunny. And and they will bring things to you, they'll look so nice, but I was in my 20s. And now I can decide what I want to be part of, and whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:36

Yeah. This is my last question to you, and and and thank you so much for your time. When do you know when you're getting dangerously close to a red line? When telling the truth is becoming much too dangerous now? How do you know that that line where life and death now resides? Where do you know that that line, where do you know where that line is? Have you ever been in a moment, in a place, in a, have you ever had to, have you ever attempted to report a story where you said, oh my goodness, if I do this story, that line that is between life and death, I might end up crossing that line.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:31

Well, fortunately in Uganda the line is clear. We know who to report about and what stories to do. And over my 10 years in journalism, I've seen that, lived it. I've told you about the family. Okay. Told you about the interview. But also I've had moments where where soldiers are sent to me to be arrested, and and and fortunately I was not. But also I've had soldiers who are trying to assault me, and the following day they are promoted. After that, do you think that you want to report that story again? The way it should be? You could have gotten a brain seizure or something. I don't know if such a thing exists. I it's recorded, it's on camera. I can't even say I can say all these things that have happened to me and say, you know. Then they would say, Ah, we don't know about that because white. We don't have information. This thing is pinned on my tweet. I was almost big, like hit in the middle of my face. The following day, these persons were promoted in the army. And I'm wondering, okay, is there like a humane part to this conversation? Because I feel like, okay, I get it. You know, you could have met me, but you don't have to. And then I'm reminded of another conversation, you know, where it's not me, where it's a lady, it's a woman. What's the story? The story of the wife of uh of Bobby Wine. There's a gun next to her, she's looking miserable. And you throw so I I these stories remind me that there's a red line, it's clear, and I'm glad I know about it. When I talk to journalism students, I I I don't paint a very fancy career that this is what you will be, because what they are looking at. It's probably getting a million followers on X and they can influence conversations. I influenced conversations around COVID by a single tweet. I influenced conversations in certain spaces. I get stories that come exclusive to me. Everyone went when everyone said, Oh, these soldiers have not been arrested by General Mouse Kenya Government. I stood my ground. I remember my editor calling me just a month, three weeks ago, saying, Are you sure? I said yes. Week later, the story was confirmed. So the red line in Uganda is very clear if you have been here for a while and I don't twist to say, oh no, you know, no, no, uh so like you are in a certain environment. Oh no, no, no, you know that conversation you cannot say it. People could be listening. No, no, no, no. It's what it is. Just find out what you're really ready to face. Your risk tolerance. I don't know if I'm risk tolerant, but it's what has shaped my career. I'm just lucky.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:20

That you haven't died.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:24

No, that with everything that I've been attacked before. Almost lost my eye. In 2025, in May, I was attacked. Guys who are speaking Swahili. What do I call that? It's not a robbery.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:42

Attacked where?

SPEAKER_06 1:29:43

I was attacked here in Kampala. During the elections? No, this is in May 2025 before election. What happened? My bunch of people cut off my car and they stopped it and I couldn't drive and knock them because in any.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:00

Where were you waiting?

SPEAKER_06 1:30:02

I was going home.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:03

Okay, so after work.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:04

I was living home. It was a Saturday as just had a very, very intense conversation on TV. And then I went to a conference.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:15

What was the intense conversation about? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_06 1:30:20

It was still about power. And then I went to a conference at Missele Hotel. Then I left Miss Steele Hotel. Then I was going home. What time was it? It was like 10 p.m. 10. 10, 11, yeah. Then I went to then I went home. I was going home. Then along the Northern Bypass, which is the road that connects the Intel Expressway. I was stopped, forcefully attacked. My car attacked. They hit my eye until it almost fell off. Do you know how many do you would how do you know when you know when people just come in front of your car?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:56

Yeah, they cut you off. They cut you off. You stop.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:59

Yeah. You see, the option is what is going on. So the option you have is go over them, but what if you don't? Then they'll find you and kill you. So it's to stop and you know trying to maneuver and and then and then and then they hit the car, then they hit the the glass window and and then opened it. By this time I was I was already hit on the eye.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:29

I still Because of the glass?

SPEAKER_06 1:31:31

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:32

Because of the breaking?

SPEAKER_06 1:31:34

No. I was hit by a brick. Okay. When you hear about breaking into the car, you think it's uh two minutes breaking. No. It's once. The car is broken, hit inside, they hit my I wear my scars. They hit my face, try to destroy the face. Left my laptop there. They just looked for anything that looked like a document and then took it, took my phones, then yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:07

And they were speaking for you.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:09

Yeah. And by many, you remember how many they were? That's 15. I went to police. I I I went to the topmost, you know, police.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:18

The IGP.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:19

No, the head of the investigations and what time I told them that's CID. Nothing. To date. They said, oh no, no, no, no, no. You know, you you you go report this case. To this da da da.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:35

I say what's da-da-da-da-da. Report the case to who?

SPEAKER_06 1:32:38

Go report the case to the nearest police station so we can have it recorded. Showed them a message off my ex. From someone I don't want to mention.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:50

What did it say?

SPEAKER_06 1:32:53

Said nothing. What do you mean? It was a full stop.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:57

Just full stop?

SPEAKER_06 1:32:58

Just a full stop, yeah. Was it a direct message to you? Yeah. Just full stop. Yes. And that was after the show. Then later in the night, that's when I was attacked. And this is someone you know. Probably you all know. And so from from the the red line is is is clear in Uganda, right? Because that's that was your question. It's clear, and yeah, you when I talk to journalism students, just be prepared for what you're doing, and you could as well just go and do other things. But for me, I just do not know how to sit back and see things being broken in front of my eyes. I need to have a voice, a voice that can be listened to luckily, and and just let it go. So in Uganda, you have to tone it down, but put the voice out there.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:59

But I guess at every moment you also are fully aware that yours is a voice that is powerful, but it's also a voice that can be silenced. Yeah, but not completely. Oh no, you can be completely silenced.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:15

I don't know. I don't know. But as long as I can put some whispers through. Also, I'm not, you know, trying to, you know, I'm I'm just uh a journalist that that has a voice. At the end of the day I'm reminded I have two children. Beautiful sons. Yeah. So I'm very, very cognizant of that, and I make sure that it's important that at least I live a life for them. One, by being careful, but two advocating for a country they would want to live in. So if I don't speak now, they're going to find that country.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:00

I guess it's it's it's super hard because you've told me about red lines that you're you are aware of. But the thing with red with lines, sometimes they move and they move and you're not aware that they've moved. And and I think that's the biggest worry is that what you thought was okay silently changes. And then you find yourself on the wrong side of things. It's tough.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:43

Where you are and where I'm sitting, at least there's a a wide camera you control. Oh, the line is almost behind me. And now you have all sorts of rules, this, that, and worry about the future of journalism, accountability in this country.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:13

Do you ever feel like you want to leave? Try try your try your profession elsewhere.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:25

For the first time, yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:29

I could try my talents elsewhere. Like my primary teachers will always tell me. If I want to shout in class, I could go and try my talents everywhere. Meaning you either keep quiet or go shout from another class, we won't find you. I love this country and I want to raise my kids here. But unfortunately, I don't know. If the country loves you too. If the country loves me back. But one thing for sure. Me and my kids are here, and this is what I call home. Because my mother is here, my my siblings are here, and those are my biggest strong uh foundation when can when things fall apart. And and I don't want to leave. So it's a beautiful country. So I either change it or the change finds me.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:27

Hopefully you succeed. 50-50. I'll do what I can, and what I can't, it's okay, it's fine. I encourage or encourage a lot of other young people to make sure that they also, you know, join in and uh because when we abandon such, then it means that you're going to live with the consequences of abandonment. And that's painful to live. For me, I'm on air seven days a week, Monday to Sunday. And for me, what I pride myself in is to have conversations that can influence on policy, on government, on whatever, right? So if my doctor is not about something important, I would rather not have it. If I can have a conversation and say what's the 12th parliament going to look like, someone out there listening can be able to say, Oh, I'm an MP elect. Maybe I should behave this way. The sovereignty bill has this bill that is making noise recently, has gone through here and there and whatever. Before it goes to the parliamentary committee of parliament, it's at the NRM caucus. What is it doing there? There's a bill that is, you know, making uh rounds about the sovereignty of this country. Can we have a conversation about because why are you taking it into a closed-door meeting of the NRM parliamentary caucus that you've not talked to us as citizens about? Can we understand where it's coming from? If I can't put that on my show, it means that I have abandoned my responsibility and I don't want to live in that country. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:18

Hopefully, you're fighting the good fight, you're fighting the mental health fight, you're fighting uh freedom of the press fight, and you're fighting a fight just to be the best version of yourself. And I sincerely hope that you win on all fronts. It's hope against hope. Kanari Mugume, thank you so much for sitting down with me on the long form. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:52

I hope you enjoyed yourself, at least a little bit. Well, some of the things are gonna bring trouble, but they're from deep down from my heart.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:00

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:01

And that's all we can do. We can only be honest, you know. Thank you so much, brother.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:08

Thank you. And uh thank you for coming to Kampala.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:12

I hope to be coming more and more.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:14

Well, I hope you enjoy it.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:15

I will. I will, I promise. Maybe we'll have a coffee.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:21

Not a great fan of coffee, but we can have uh something a bit longer. But thank you, Sunny. Thank you, and thank you for inviting me on the podcast. Amazing. Thank you so much. Pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:36

And that's a wrap for today's conversation. Thanks for staying with us till the very end. It really means a lot. I'd love to know what was the one moment that really stood out to you? Drop it in the comments so that we can keep the discussion going. If you want to connect with us beyond YouTube or streaming platforms, you can find us on the social media platform of your choice. And if this has sparked something for you, share it with a friend who'd love it too. Until next time, have a great week.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:09

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