Before the War: Kagame, Rwigema & Rwanda’s Untold Stories | Capt. Mike Mukula

In this episode of The Long Form Podcast, Ugandan veteran politician and NRM stalwart Captain Mike Mukula shares a rare insider perspective on the events that shaped modern Rwanda and East Africa. 

From his early interactions with Paul Kagame and Fred Rwigema before 1990, to witnessing the aftermath of the Rwandan Civil War and 1994 Genocide against the Tutsi, Captain Mukula offers a firsthand account of pivotal moments in African history.

The conversation explores the lived reality of Rwandan refugees in Uganda, the role of the Rwandan Patriotic Front, and what it takes to create stability in volatile regions like northern Uganda and Karamoja. We also examine the hidden costs of stability, the use of force versus dialogue, and the future of leadership in Uganda and East Africa.

This is a deep discussion on power, conflict, regional politics, and the decisions that shaped Rwanda, Uganda, and the Great Lakes region.

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Produced by LF Media 

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:44

This conversation is brought to you by Akaguera Medicine, a biotech company that is majority owned by the Roman people. Akagura Medicines is not only committed to expanding access to healthcare, but also supporting conversations that inform, educate, and empower. Learn more about Akagera Medicine by scanning the QR code on your screen or by visiting their website at AkagiraMedicines.com. Stability in East Africa is often taken for granted, but it does not happen by accident. To understand how it's created, you have to go back to a time when the region was far less certain. Before 1990, the story of Rwanda was being shaped in exile among a generation that would go on to change the course of a region. My guest today on the Longform Podcast is Captain Mike Mukula. Captain Mike is a pilot, businessman, and senior figure in the national resistance movement. He moved in the same circles as Paul Kagame and Fred Rejemmer, supported the Rwand Patriotic Front during the war, and flew into Kigali after its capture. He has also been part of the moments that shaped stability in Uganda from insurgency to regional diplomacy. So this is a conversation about power, how it's exercised, and what it takes to keep a region stable when everything around it is volatile. Captain Mike Mukula. Yes, my brother. Welcome to the Longform Podcast. Thank you. First of all, I want to thank you so much for welcoming us and this camera crew into your beautiful home here in Bugolobi. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. I'm exceedingly humbled to have you here and profoundly honored. Do you know who used to say that? It was what is his name? Shakasali.

SPEAKER_04 2:35

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 2:35

Yeah, he used to love to say from Voice of America. Yes, yes, sir. Another great Ugandan. Unfortunately, he's no longer with us. But I think he's here. He's always here in spirit. That's correct. Yes. Captain, you know, a lot of people know who you are, have heard about you, have read about you. But today I want to discuss a few things that not many people really know about your life, about your history, and just how integral you've become, you've been in creating the East Africa that we see today. A lot of people know you as a Ugandan politician, they know you as a member of parliament, they know you as minister, they know you as a mover and shaker in the Ugandan economy, but they don't know that the story of Captain Mike Mukula extends into Uganda's southern neighbor, Rwanda. So before we go into other other East African issues, I want to talk about your history with Rwanda. You were around Paul Kagame and Fred Rijma way before 1990, even before the commencement of the Rwand Civil War that started on the 1st of October 1990. You knew those, you knew the two men intimately. You could even say that you that you were friends. So be honest. Did you already sense that these two men, those two men, were going to shape the future of Rwanda at the time? Or did you only notice that later?

SPEAKER_04 4:38

I think the most fundamental thing I see here is that President Kagame, who, in my view, lived in Uganda from the late 50s. And Rojema, the late Major General Fred Rojeman, the two generals. I knew them personally and very closely too.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

I think the critical point was the history and post-history narrative.

SPEAKER_04 5:27

One who passed on at the beginning of the struggle of the liberation of Rwanda the first or second day in the liberation movement in the October the second of 1990, the late foreign general and a brother and a comrade, a great pan-Africanist, was a very humble man. A person who dedicated his life more like Che Guevara, the who was Bolivian, but committed his life to work with and to fight with Fidel Castro for the liberation of Cuba in 1959. You can also see that he participated in the liberation struggle under the NRA, the National Resistance Army, led by General Museveni, together with his brother, General Kagame. It's unfortunate that his life was cut very early. But these were very dedicated, very committed fighters. General Kagame, who took over after the fall of his brother, General Fred Rojemma, were comrades who worked very closely with General Salim Saleh, one of our decorated generals in the liberation of this country. And if you do recall from the books of General Museveni, the two saved the life of General Museveni and Mama Janet Museveni and now General Kainer a roundabout banda. Tell us that story. And they were just waiting for the evening to fall. Then they were going to be executed because there were many people then in UNLA, especially at a high level, who were looking at executing or getting rid of President Museveni. So you can see that the two contributed tremendously towards the, first of all, the saving of the life of the president, fighting with him in the bush, and then later on disengaging from the NRA and going to form the RPA and RPM in Rwanda. And I want to say that the these are people that I respect profoundly. And I want to tell you that they go down in the history of two countries, both Rwanda and Uganda, as great fighters, great revolutionaries, and great Pan-Africanists. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 9:22

One of the things that you were lucky to do was to actually know these men as friends. You know, sometimes when we hear about legends, we forget that they are human beings. And like human beings had friends, laughed, danced. Let's talk about the late Fred. Someone told me that you owned a, after the liberation of Kampala, you owned a place called Bimbo Ice Cream. Was that correct? Correct. And they said that Fred loved to go there. Here's the question: what are your secrets worth? And how far will you go to protect them? Every day, tens of thousands of hacked credentials for emails, social media, and other services are bought and sold on the dark web, all without victims suspecting a thing. If you're like me, and desires and peace of mind, Threat Informant is for you. Built by KillTech Hub, a cybersecurity company, Threat Informant is a dark web monitoring online solution that allows you to search the deep web for hidden markets, detect your leaked data, and react before any damage is done. And here is the best part. It's available for government agencies, businesses, and individuals like myself. It's simple. If your data is out there, Threat Informant will let you know. So take control of your digital safety today and scan the pure code that you can see on your screen, or click the link in the description to sign yourself and your entire organization up. You cannot protect yourself if you don't know you're under threat. Get threat informant today.

SPEAKER_04 11:21

The both general the late Major General Fred Rejemer, who I think, in my view, is brother General Kagame, should honor posthumously as a full general. That would be my prayer. And that will be an occasion that many Ugandans will look onto because that will be the a God-given opportunity for the post-Rwanda, the post-liberation struggle to get both Uganda and um and Rwanda to honor him.

SPEAKER_05 12:11

I think I think in Rwanda he's he is honored. He's honored. Every Hero's Day, the president, the entire cabinet, the entire, including the diplomatic corps, go and as well as the late Major General Fred Rigemer's family, go and honor him. But that's also an interesting view. I don't know whether you can actually reward someone a rank posthumously after their passing. But that would be that could be an interesting idea.

SPEAKER_04 12:57

It's food for thought. It's really up to the leadership in Rwanda, the sovereign. This is just my humble position. And as you do recall with all clarity, that I have a lot of disrespect. I have a lot of respect. And I speak with a lot of heavy heart when we talk about the late Majigano Fred Regiment. Because he used to come to Bimbo. That's how close we were. He used to come to Bimbo, used to go to his home. He used to come to Bimbo order I. He used to come home. He used to. I was very close to his mother. Very, very close to his mother. Actually, we started speaking Kenya Rwanda. She started teaching me Kenya Rwanda because she didn't know English. She didn't know Luganda. She didn't know Swahili. She only spoke. And obviously she didn't know it as well. She didn't know my language. But she would one way or the other try to talk Kenya Rwanda with me. But I want to say that being a humble person, small, she was very respectful. That's how deep we were close. We even, his wedding uh to Janet. Janet Rujema. We had even bought suits. I thought we were going to be his best man. But then I think the hierarchy, they wanted to make it a military wedding. So they got uh general, one of the generals, Ivan Correta, to be the best man. But we had bought the suits. You and Fred. Me and Fred, yes. Both for the Kasiki and the wedding. I know I remember the gray component, the suit we had. We had bought and we had measured very well. And the kasique was here in Bugulobi. Where was he? Do you remember? Yes, very not very far away from here. One of the architects, renowned architects, I think, very close friend of Fred Rejema. And at that time, General Kagame, President Kagame, was then in charge of security, the whole operational organization. And we coordinated together to make sure that the function went very well in Bugalobi. But we used to, they used to come home and sometimes come to Bimbo. And Bimbo was the happening place like you have now, Jevis or Javas, Javas of Mandela. And was a good supporter of uh Vila. SC Villa. Jogo. And I was a supporter of KCC, now KCCA. Yes. Those are the teams in the Ugandan Football League. Football league. They're all great supporters. They love football. I am an Arsenal supporter. General Kagame is an Arsenal supporter. But General Kagame, which was the only place he chose to eat from. And there was a lady called Mbabazi. She later on died, who was in charge of giving him, serving him milkshake. He loved milkshake. Who's that? Is it General Kagame? Mbabazi was my cashier and was overall supervisor. But she later on when she died, she chose, and in her will, she said, I want to be buried in Rwanda. And she was accorded that honor and respect. But the point I'm trying to tell you, that is how close we were. To the extent that the two would eat freely in my place, they would drink freely in my place. And we are free to interact with me. That's how free it was. I remember the late Fred Rejemer one time. We were driving out of Bimbo on Ginger Road. And now opposite what would be the NEMA headquarters, there was a man who had hijacked and taken over and was cornered in a robbery. And I want to tell you the bravery of this general. And everybody loaded the road was almost half closed, the ginger road. So he was in um a Mercedes 320 black UVS, I think 820. And he stopped and asked what was happening. And I want to tell you that he was putting on a white a black trouser, black shoes, white shirt. And were you also there? Yes, I was there. In the same car? In the same car. And what he did was he asked what was happening. They said there's a sieve up, a robber, and he's armed, and he kept firing. So the policemen were scared. Nobody could confront him. So I do recall very well that um Fred then asked one of the soldiers, one of the guards that policemen. He had a brand new AK-47, brand new, with one magazine. And he said he took it from him. And he asked him, let me take it. And he went into the corner, the act of bravery. Field, I think, two or three shots. And the man fired back. He fired one shot again. The man fired now several bullets. As soon as he stopped, he entered in and fired rapidly. He had pinned where the man was. And the one the man was no more. He was slightly up. And I want to tell you, he put the gun back and gave it to the policeman. And he drove off. We drove off. That act of bravery. And you're watching all of this.

SPEAKER_05 19:20

Yes, because it was like a movie. It's like a movie. But that's the act of bravery. Why? Is that an act of bravery? Or at the time, had he already become a major general by then? Yes, he was a major general. You're talking about it as an act of bravery. I'm wondering, it's almost it sounds a bit reckless because he could have died. This idiot of a robot could have killed a man before his time.

SPEAKER_04 19:51

General Saleh and most of the soldiers of NRA did not command from the rear. They breathed in engagement directly from the front. And that's why you find that I have a lot of respect for General Saleh. When you see him, he's a bullet scarred, nearly about 20 bullets inside him. There are very few people who are as patriotic as that. And he still continues to live a very humble life, General Saleh. And that's the same position his brother had, Fred Rejemma. And there was an emotional attachment between the two. Very strong emotional attachment. And equally, General Fred and Kagame, General Kagame, President Kagame, equally had an emotional attachment. So you can see that there was a deep conviction about what they wanted and how they wanted it to be done. And that's the kind of leadership you had. That's the kind of revolutionaries you had. There are very few in the African continent who are at that level. That's why I liken them. I equate them to Che Guavera. I also likened them to Fidel Castro and so on and so forth. No wonder because of the discipline that had been inculcated to them, or they are developed in the NRA and transferred now to the RPA, these are among the top most disciplined armies, not only in the African continent, but in the in the world.

SPEAKER_05 21:47

Let me ask you. So for people who know Rwandan history, the Rwanda Patriotic Front was formed in 1987. Yes. It was actually formed. Here in Kampala. If I'm not mistaken, either Bogolobi or it was one of those floods. That's when they created this organization, this vanguard organization, with the hope of figuring out a way to return the Randan refugees back home and also creating a new political dispensation in Rwanda. For the three years that it was still in Uganda, it was what you'd call a calendar clandestine organization. So maybe you were not aware of the different moving parts. But as friends, you know, when you'd share a drink, would the Rwandan question ever arise? Would you ever discuss it and say, but what what is the how do we go home? How was that ever a discussion that you had? I know it was a discussion in the running community. I want to figure out if outside the running community that was here in Uganda at the time, was there was it was there also discussions among friends? Listen, I know just how annoying it is when, just in the middle of a really interesting conversation on YouTube, an ad appears. That frustration is why we've created the long-form Patreon. For just$4 a month, you can enjoy ad-free listening, early access to conversations a full day before they're publicly released, and you're directly supporting the work that we do here. Every episode takes time, research, and sometimes plaintiffs. We don't do it for money. We do it because we genuinely believe in sharing stories and conversations that matter. If you want to be part of that journey, you can join the live on Patreon by scanning the QR code that you can see right now on the screen or using the link in the description. And if membership is too much of an investment, you can still support us by making a one-time donation via our MTN MOMO using the code registered under LF Media 95462. Thank you so much for believing in what we do.

SPEAKER_04 24:25

As you rightfully said, that the liberation of movement and the right for self-determination of the refugees who are now anchored in Uganda, in the East African continent, East African part of those in Burundi, the DRC, Congo, Tanzania, Kenya, and those who were in the diaspora. The struggle had many elements. But it was very difficult for an outsider to deepen. Even those who were within uh UP uh NRA as fighters, none of them would know. Even the D Day. But for me, who was very close to them, there are certain times where you'd see that Fred, Major General Fred or General Fred would say, May I use Particular Tourists? Can I use the apartment? I have a quiet meeting. And he would call some of the senior officers who are Rwandis Origin from NRA. And they would just go up there, converge, meet very quietly, two or three of them. And you would wonder what it is. What they are cooking. And this was not once, a number of times, especially culminating to the D-Day. There were also times when I would drive Fred to the airport and would go to, and he would be flying to Bujumbura, the different airline, Ethiopian at that time. And that movement was quiet. But obviously you'd wonder why a general from Uganda would be flying to Bujumbura on Ethiopian Airlines. There are times when you would have.

SPEAKER_05 27:00

Yes, from uh the Gulf War.

SPEAKER_04 27:03

The first Gulf War. It took nine months planning every day to attack Baghdad or Iraq for that matter against Saddam Hussein. Fred was, and we worked towards setting up that satellite system. There was a Muñoru man, he passed on. To set it up, he wanted to have, he constantly watched the planning and so on. The question is obviously, as a general, as a fighter, that is something that he was he was following closely. But little, very few people knew he was also planning an assault on Rwanda. There were also times where he would take my car. I had different cars, but he would borrow and say, May I use this car? And he would drive. I got to know eventually. Somebody would tell me, Your car was your car is in Barrara. Another one is Toward Gatuna. Friends say, I've seen your car towards Gatuna.

SPEAKER_05 28:09

Then and and for people who don't know, it Uganda today is full of cars. Yes. In the early 18 in 89-90, there weren't that many nice cars in the country. So you'd know, okay, this one belongs to this one. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 28:29

So when you see that, no wonder he was doing reke. He was doing positioning. Maybe he had forward scouts who were trying to see the forward launch of deliberation by the RPA. And also, there were also indicators. I remember a number of things that were happening. But one of the key things was there was before he left, I saw two movements that were very peculiar. Which ones and which ones? The RV. What's an RV? What you call a central meeting point. Rendezvous. RV is rendezvous. And I saw many of these fighters who I'd known. I had known, I knew Bunyanyese, I knew the doctor. Bunyanyzi used to come home. Bengana used to come to my place, but he used to come to Kayogoke, one of the directors of uh uh uh Pepskola. Yes. That group uh Udamo Sinzei. He used to come to my place all the time. But the fighters that used to be in BBR, used to be in the northern part of Uganda fighting coin, and so on and so forth, the the movements in the north were meeting and they would come in very briefly and move. And I saw that movement. They would come to your the flat in Bugolobi. No, no. They would come to near Bimbo, the senior commanders, and they would move. They would meet and then move. And you are watching all of this? I could see all this movement. Didn't you ever ask yourself what's happening? I think the most significant thing was that evening we had a we had a game between KCCA and Villa. Yes. And the late Fred Regima came. I was cutting my hair up on Udiam House. And he came to me and said, I just want. I wondered why. He said, I just want to look at you. I wanted to see you and look at you. When was this? The night before. That night actually he left.

SPEAKER_05 31:08

So that would be the 31st.

SPEAKER_04 31:10

That night is when he left.

SPEAKER_05 31:13

And he just wants to look at you.

SPEAKER_04 31:16

He just wanted I just want to look at you. Wow. That was my last.

SPEAKER_03 31:22

Did you? It's painful. I just want to look at you.

SPEAKER_05 31:33

I I think I guess when you you sit back and and you're maybe having a cup of coffee and remembering, yeah. Do you wish that you had said something to him?

SPEAKER_04 31:46

Well, see, the for somebody, then eventually you get to know that he's pastor. And in a very short time, it was very painful. Very, very painful. I don't know what his brother General Saleh had, but I know that it traumatized General Saleh tremendously. It's something that was more difficult for General Saleh and many of us at that time to hear later on that Fred had been, his life had been cut short by in the struggle in the first encounters of the liberation of Rwanda. So that is the kind of pain. That's the kind of deep memory you had with the freedom fight or the fighters of Rwanda. Reconnaissance, the movements, the special engagements, and so on.

SPEAKER_05 32:52

So you said the first one was the RV, seeing the fighters from the north just come and then dispass. Hey, before we dive back into the conversation, are you a business looking to grow your reach, an organization hoping to connect with a youth, or a market leader with a great product you want people to know about? You can advertise right here on the Longform Podcast. Reach out to us on our email, commercial at sendingnayombia.com or on our phone number 0795462739. Let me repeat, on our phone number, 0795462739. We'd love to help you tell your story. And now back to the conversation. A lot of movement that that night. Obviously that was the night about the 31st of September. Yes. There was even a movement before.

SPEAKER_04 33:56

That means the advanced force, the bridgehead, was now forming, putting together formation. And obviously, equipment movement, which had also be had to be concealed. It was concealed to Uganda, but it had to be more concealed to the enemy that they were going to attack. Because don't forget, Abiy Almana and the Rwandese government at that time had a deep, they also had actors here to oversee what was happening. Because there was that suspicion that Abi Almana had about Uganda and partially Fred Rejemac. And getting to know that most of the fighters who were senior commanders in NRA were a number of them who were quite senior and were Rwandees. So obviously, as a leader, your intelligence would tell you that something's being cooked. Something will definitely be cooked. And they had to be very careful about it.

SPEAKER_05 35:14

You've talked about quite for quite a while about General the late Fred. But even at the time, Major Kagame was a good friend of yours. You were speaking there when we met for the first time about your shared love of cars. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 35:35

There is a time when we went together with my brother, the president of Rwanda, General Kagame. There was a wedding of Rugambo. In Ginger, that is uh Rosette and Henry in Ginger. So we he came home. We agreed that we would go together. And at that time, he had a Mercedes-Benz G wagon white. And I had a Mercedes-Benz G wagon, same but brown stripped. And he came to pick me from home so that we could drive together in the evening to attend a casiki in ginger. And I do recall very clearly that he had suggested that we should go with one car to ginger. And I said, no, let's go with two vehicles. We're moving at night. It is better for us to be cautious. You never know. I just said, you never know. He had escort. I didn't have escort, but we drove. And who was driving? He was driving his car. He liked Paul, sorry, to call President Kagame. And I always tell him, forgive me, Your Excellency. I prefer to call you Paul. And he said, no, don't worry about that. Whenever we met in uh after he became president. But we agreed to move in two vehicles. He drives himself, he prefers to drive himself, to drive the car himself. And I drive also. Don't forget I'm a rally driver. I prefer to drive myself. And I want to see what is happening in front. Even if I'm being driven now, I sit on the left, but I want to see what is happening. I don't sit behind. So when we go to Ginger, we had uh the kasiki, the niceties and so on, dancing. The president loves dancing. He's uh he's a jolly person, he's a person, he's a people's person, though reserved, but people's person. For going to attend the function meant that he was a people's person. And so after one, two, we decided we go back to Kabbalah to drive back. And he tried to start the car, started again. He couldn't start. So eventually we agreed after about 20, 30 minutes that um the car wouldn't uh move. So I told him, I told you. You never know. So I came back, we came back in my car. Who was driving? I was driving. He was in the front seat. So we drove back. He knows it very well. So these are some of the times we had together, but that's how close we were. And I drove him back to his uh house in Basketball in Cololo. I was in the company, I think I do recall. No. He also used to live with uh one of my great friends, who, René Benzinge. He's now a captain on Kenya Ways. He flies the dream liner. Yes, he's uh he's been flying with Kenya Ways for a long time.

SPEAKER_05 39:11

Yeah, one of the things that uh President Kagame talks about is he always had a dream of being a pilot and working on aircraft, but because he was a Rwandan, uh he was not able to be allowed into, I think, Sorotive flying school. So maybe that's that's why He would have made a very, very good pilot. You think so?

SPEAKER_04 39:31

Very good pilot. Why? President Kagame, General Kagame, is a very meticulous person. Very meticulous. And very thorough, very careful, no nonsense. Flying is about those credentials. The small details. The detail. The devil is in the detail. No wonder the success you see and is being scored in Rwanda is about meticulousness, the ability to follow however little a matter is. I am like, I also have some of those ingredients, maybe not to his uh perfection.

SPEAKER_05 40:12

I mean, I've been to your house, and this we're doing this in this format, but you can see everything is meticulous, white, clean lines, no clutter. I can I can understand now that you're discussing this, how that that pilot's thing.

SPEAKER_04 40:34

That is what you have and you have had in General Kagame. The same was with the late Major General Frederick Emma. An eye for the de for the detail. And that's the same thing I have for our great leader, General Mseveni. General M. Seveni is, I think it is a revolutionary stint. The eye for the detail, memory, the memory of an elephant, the ability to pick up every detail and not to forget, and the revolutionary instincts, constant suspicion, constant movement, all those details that surround and equip and drive a guerrilla mine. President Museven continues to live that mine to date. He has never relaxed. He is the man to the detail, and that's the same thing with General Kagame.

SPEAKER_05 41:38

You are also a guerrilla. You were also a guerrilla during that time. Of course, during the NRA struggle, you were part of, maybe not at the front lines, but you were part of that.

SPEAKER_04 41:51

I you see, unfortunately, I went to the United States and did my flight training, the advanced flight training in Dallas Fort Worth Area, in the Akimis School of Aeronautics. My friends in 1981, the late Ndayondi, Fred Ruberza, all those are friends I was with in Tesla College. They were very, very close friends of mine. And when I came back, there are many others who went into the bush. I actually looked for a way I wanted to leave my profession and go and join them in the struggle. Because I picked that position when I was in the US in 1981, February the 6th, when they after when they went to the bush. But when I got back, I wanted to go to the bush and join my friends. Because we were very, very close. And even at one time when we were in, I met Fred Rejemma in Fort Porto.

SPEAKER_05 42:54

So this is during the Ugandan Civil War. So 80 to 86. Yes. 81 to 86.

SPEAKER_04 43:03

I even met Fred Rejemma in Fort Potto. We had during the, you know, there were extrajudicial killings which were taking place here. A friend of mine was killed by a rogue soldier of Tito Kello. In the road where Rujemma eventually came to live in, he was shot and killed. So anyway, we had to take the body to bury in Fort Potro. That's where I met Fred. That was the first time you met him. Yes. That's when I met Fred Rejemma. So that is what, 85, 86? 85. And when we met in um in um Fort Potro, Mountains of the Moon Hotel, where I was staying with my friend Charles Twajira and another person who were very close with the late. Person who died. And in the evening we had a drink together. Fred came and joined us. We had bottles of uh niceties and drinks. But he had wanted me to stay and join him. But I had a very young boy, and my wife had gone to deliver in London. But I would have remained to be in that struggle. And that was the very first time you met him?

SPEAKER_05 44:26

That's my first time to meet Fred. So then how did you, because by the time, so this is 85, by the time you see him for the very last time, this is in 1990. How is it that over in a space of five years you became more than friends? You became almost like brothers. When you first met him, how did that relationship come into being?

SPEAKER_04 44:56

We had so many things in common. We had the things they liked are the things I liked. I had a character that we were able to dovetail with. We really had something in common between the two of us. And I think from Fort Porto, we remained together. I remember in November or December thereabouts, because the liberation seven captured Kampala and was sworn in on the 26th. But before that, the Tito Kelo fighters, because I'd just come back from Fort from Fort Porto. And we had, when we were driving back, we had to go through Kabohe to drive back to Kampala. And we said we are coming from Kabari. Because if we had come back, said we have come from Kasese. They had call you rebels and they would call us rebels. I would have been killed instantly. But we had to have the instinct of a gorilla to adapt to the struggle at that time to say, how do you survive? The survival instinct. It was my brother's car. And he was in the army, the late Martin Anomot, captain. Because that vehicle had been seen in Fort Porto, had been seen in the West, that man was eventually killed by, it was near Mulago. He was shot, and his wife were all killed. And at the time they were also looking for me. I ended up going into exile into Kenya. You passed Busia? I passed uh, yes, not Busia, I passed Malaba and crossed over to Kenya. Exile for the first time. How did that feel? Very difficult. Very, very difficult. I had two options at that time. Either to go and join the forces, back, join Fred Rojemma in the West, or move on to the United States, where I had lived and trained as a pilot. But within a short time, that two months, three months, Kampala was liberated and Kampala fell.

SPEAKER_05 47:25

And that's where we came back now. And is that your experience in exile, even though it was only for a small amount of time, two months, is that why you felt quite strongly when the Rwandans decided to also leave exile, to go back home, because you felt the pain. Because by that by this time, Rwandans had been in Uganda since about 1959. Yes. So we are talking 31 years of exile, of being raised in Uganda, going through that entire system, you know, having children also who are also refugees as well. Did you feel a certain kinship? Because you've also gone through the although for yours was only two months. With the 30 days or 50 years.

SPEAKER_04 48:26

Yes. The mere fact that you are externalized from your country is very painful. Very, very painful.

SPEAKER_05 48:34

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SPEAKER_00 49:49

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SPEAKER_04 49:56

The young people who do not know what it means to live in your country may not know what it takes. When I see the young generation now in Rwanda, the young generation in Uganda, they may not understand it. But I want to tell you that to be able to wake up in the morning in your country and breathe the fresh oxygen and look at the trees, the mere fact that even if you are poor, even if there's an element of poverty, you may not have a job, you may not have all that you wish to have. But the mere fact that you are living in your country and you are free and there is peace and stability is a huge difference. Two countries, Rwanda and Uganda, are all very peaceful countries, among the most peaceful countries in the African continent. And developing, Rwanda's growth is at about 7.6% per annum. Uganda is about 7.7% per annum. All these show you that these are rapidly growing countries among the top 10 or top seven fastest growing economies in the world. At least to me.

SPEAKER_05 51:14

Yeah, actually, last year Rwanda's was about above eight. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 51:19

It's quite tremendous growth. This, I mean, when you look at Rwanda now, you read, I've not been to Rwanda for some time. But when you read about Rwanda now, the Rwanda that I knew, the Rwanda that I saw post-liberation, I'm very proud of Rwanda. I'm very proud of Kagame. I'm very proud of those who laid their lives to the liberation and self-determination of Rwanda and the people. I want to really say that Rwanda now is applying for FIA. F1. F1. It's under FIA, F1, competing with South Africa. Who knew that would be possible? It's now the cleanest city in the African continent, Kigali. It has got some of the best hotels, the best uh tourism destinations, the expanding airline, uh, you've got one of the best and most disciplined armies in the region uh and in Africa. The same applies to Uganda. Uganda is now peaceful from the north to the south, east to the west. I want to say that it is uh a dream come true. And to those who laid their lives for the liberation of Rwanda, may God bless their souls. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:48

Talking about those who've laid down their lives, as you mentioned, the late hero of both countries, Fred Rajemar, passed away on day two, second of October. But that was not the end of the struggle. And among the for us Rwandans, we know the story of the liberators who partook in the Liberation War. But I'd like to discuss your your role or your small contribution. One of the things that again you you spoke about was you were not just a spectator in the national liberation war, Iranian liberation war. You were an active participant as well.

SPEAKER_04 53:52

Well, the I'm happy to say that when uh I see countries now, a country like Rwanda, I participated in many things in the region, quietly, my humble contribution, including my country. I participated in the I moved a motion to cause the disarmament of the Karamajong or the Karachuna in um sixth parliament to take away estimated number of guns, which were close to 60,000, the largest catchment area of guns in the whole of Eastern Central Africa, possibly. At that time, Karamoji is about the size of Rwanda. But they wreaked havoc from the Acholi sub-region, Lango, Teso, Bugisu, Capchoro, and internally. My contribution also for the formation of the auxiliary forces, the Aro, Amuka, and Frontier Guards, Teso, Lango, and the Acholi sub region in Kitko. That was my humble contribution, really. People who have worked so hard and having sacrificed their lives. When it comes to Rwanda, I want to tell you that when my brother fell on the 2nd of October, and 2nd of October every year from the time he fell, I don't work, I stay home. It is one dedication and commitment I stay and meditate in memory of my brother. And I also have the same for my mother. These are two occasions where I do recall, these fallen comrades. Now added to that is Raila Molodinga, who fell in uh who God took his life on the 14th of October. That was last year. So that now adds into the number of people I recall about the time. But my humble contribution when uh Major General Freder, when uh General Kagami, President Kagami came from the United States. I remember I gave a humble contribution of a tent when he was leaving uh Sheraton, where he was staying, after he came back from Fort Fort.

SPEAKER_05 56:28

Fort Leavenworth. He was at Fort Leavenworth. Yes. Then he goes, he flies in through Brussels. Right. And then he lands in Kampala, obviously.

SPEAKER_04 56:38

The system put him to stay in Sheraton. And from Sheraton, he moved on. But my humble contribution at that time was uh a tent. I said use this tent as a blessing for the struggle. And I gave it one of the senior, very, very senior people in RAPA as they were moving southbound. But also they were students and business community, and we formed what you call Uganda Rwanda Friendship Association. When was that one formed? Immediately after when the RPA, the Nkotanyi, when they started the struggle, they needed medicine, they needed funds, they needed to buy different things in terms of logistics. And every time I used to organize, I used to work with the students, I used sometimes be even the chief guest, being the chairman of Uganda Rwanda Friendship Association. It is one of the things that I felt was a noble duty, a contribution to the liberation of Rwanda. It may be small, but petite. Something is better than it is part of the building blocks. And also if you do recall when in 1994, about the eighth, for a hundred days, there was that carnage. The genocide. One of the most painful extrajudicial killings that took place in Rwanda. Very, very painful. I do recall very clearly that um there was a lady who I was able to get in touch with um General Paul Kagame. She was called Maria Pia Fanfani, the wife of the six-time Italian prime minister. She flew in here, and I was one of the contacts that were made at that time.

SPEAKER_05 58:49

Before you continue on that story, so are you saying that beyond other than the work that you did as the chairperson of the Friendship Society? Uganda Rwanda Friendship Society Association and as well as any activities around 1994, there wasn't anything that, you know, did you ever visit the rebel-held territories and to to or were you able to play any kind of whether it's a diplomatic role or you know, a fundraising role, or is there anything that what I'm trying to the way you speak about your friendships, the way you speak about exile, your own exile, I could not imagine that a person who feels so strongly about African liberation, about friendship, could do the bare minimum. I I refuse to believe that. I refuse to believe that Captain Mike would have done just the bare minimum. I I don't believe that.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:04

No, I'm a very humble person, and I don't normally want to.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:08

But I think my trumpet. I'm not trying to, I'm not asking you to blow your trumpet. I am also trying to understand the history of our partnership. Because partnerships are not, they are made by people. It's not states, it's those interpersonal relationships that can build or break movements. And so I'm not asking you to boast. I'm asking you to get a to help us understand what was needed for Rwanda to be liberated.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:53

I think the most important thing I like to say is that the RPA was a people's struggle. It embodied and it entailed deep sacrifice and commitment by the people. Because the RPA, and one of the reserves of the arms, apart from those that were bought from outside, was apart from uh the Rwandese government, RAPA had to buy arms and get them in to the fighters and replenish them constantly. Those were things that had to be done. But again, that was specialized arrangement, which was done, being done by the RPA, high command, and those who were the external wing of RPA. And we had a number of people, those Rwandes who were living in the diaspora outside Rwanda. A lot had to be done to support RPA. So that's why it made it a people's war. The second thing was that there were certain things that had to be sent to raise medicine, drugs to support the soldiers, because don't forget the conditions were dire. There were injuries all the time. They had treatment, malaria, upper chest respiratory infections, all that was needed. So you needed to fundraise constantly. There was also the need for money, logistics, which would be able to be the fuel for the war. That had to be raised both within Uganda, which was now the frontline state. I want to call Uganda the frontline state because obviously not Burundi, although you had Boyoya there, not DRC Congo, not Tanzania, not Kenya. The bulk of the fighters were from Uganda. So some of the recruitment, I know friends of mine who were in Arobi, who came in and we had to prepare, get them to where they would, trucks would move and take them from uh Rubaga Road, where they would be assembled and they would move to the front line for training. And so on and so forth. All these logisticals, logistical arrangements were being done quietly. There are a number of people who were in uh in uh Kigali now. I know my sister, the late Inyumba, who were very close working with her here. She was in the external wing of uh RPM. And Inyumba was one of the pillars, a mother of the struggle, and many others who were who were part of this struggle. So let me tell you that at times you'll get students coming, or those in the diaspora flying in from Brussels, uh, from the United States, from Canada, and so on and so forth, come into Uganda. There was movement of, and those who were in in the DRC Congo who came and relocated themselves, wanted to be close to the theater, and so on and so forth. All these were happenings. There were a number of people who remained here. And I must tell you that there are people like like General Saleh who worked behind who worked behind the curtain, very deeply behind the curtain, to get this done. There are people like the late Chef Ali. There are people like that you cannot forget, General Kali. Kaihura. Kaihura, Jet Mwevaze, he died in the mountains of Renzori. And a number of what I know, close associates who supported. So when I talk about my humble contribution, do not forget, General Mseveni, would all all with all bearings, did a lot to support Rapia. And I must make it very clear. It's something that you cannot, and I would want to put it on record because he cannot talk about it himself. But we only can say that may God bless him for such a revolutionary heart, for supporting a just cause. And it is always important for the for the African continent and leaders to provide African solutions to the African problems. And that's what the African struggle is all about. So we had a common struggle, and the struggle of Rwanda was not limited only to the people of Rwanda, it was a collective. For the African continent, and particularly those like Uganda, where don't forget the hospitality from 1959, the barrage of engagement by both, at that time it was the Francophone against the Anglophone, against Uganda. And particularly during the war, you'll find that there was a protracted engagement to try to diplomatically disengage Uganda from supporting RPA. But it's important for you to note that this was an African cause. And don't forget, when Rwanda got independence from Belgium, it was initially Rwandan Burundi were initially territories of the Germans. The Berlin Conference divided us. And the point of departure with our colonial masters was the principles of divide and rule. Those anecdotes, those points which are very critical, which divided our people along the ethnic arrangements. Don't forget the African continent has over 1,000 to 2,000 different ethnic arrangements, which caused that division, which later on led to the genocide in Rwanda between two groups, which should not be discussed again. And that's why we want to say never should it occur again. We had a duty, we had a commitment to do that. And I don't regret it.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:37

Talking about the genocide now, you've played a humble role in the fight. Then I'm sure, like all of us at the time when the 1994 genocide against the Tutsi started, I was in Kisui Savio as in primary seven. And I remember reading about bodies being discovered on Lake Victoria pouring in from River Akagera. This was just me as a as a young student. I'm sure you had a bit more information. Did you know? Because I remember I was I I remember hearing the news that Habiarimana had been assassinated. It was around, I remember I heard it on the BBC, BBC Swahili. And I remember telling my grandmother, and she was she had how she felt about it. Then all of a sudden I go to school, and then I'm seeing this in the news. When did you figure out that something terrible was happening?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:00

The first encounter, we had just like you, the students, you were then young, but we're open to at that time. The media was not uh as sparse as it is with social platforms you have now. You have TikTok now, you have AI, you have uh Twitter, you have all that was not there. You had what you called a print and a limited digital media, electronic, which is television. The first encounter was when I was the Italian, the wife of the six-time Italian prime minister's wife came here, Maria Pia Fanfani. And at that time, in Biumba, she wanted, she was getting messages from Italy. Italians are very passionate people. And this lady was working with UN, she was a special envoy of the UN on peace. And all these things were happening in the theater at that time. And you remember it was about a hundred years, a hundred days from the time Abi Albana was aircraft was shot down to the time the killings between 81 million people perished. In Viumba, I remember we went, we got permission, President Mseveny and uh Rapia then at that time to go to Rwanda.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:41

So it so I understand. At the time you did not know what was happening there.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:46

No, we knew what had taken place because what the information was flowing.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:51

Did you know the scale? Did at the time, did you know that before you went to the ground on the ground, did you understand what you were reading?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:03

The scale had not been broadcast to the world. And when I went in, first of all, to Casensiro in Rakhai district, with and I had my very good friend, the late Pinto, who was a member of parliament for Rakhai, that lower part. And later on I went to look for my friend, Joan Kakuenzire, who was the special assistant to the president. I said, come and join me. I actually brought her in. We went to Casensiro. By road? By road. When we got there, my brother, every minute there were bodies that were flowing into the confluence from River Kagera to the confluence of Lake Victoria at a place called Casensiro. And these bodies were floating. And I want to tell you that this was one of the most horrifying, traumatizing debacles, or maybe the view that you'd see. This skin of most of those bodies which floated from the river was taken off. And you could see, like when you see animals that have been this skinned when they're hanging in the butchery, that's how human beings were floating. Clothes on, this pigment was because of soaking, taken off. And I want to tell you that the brutal killings, the manner in which they had been hacked with blunt objects, and some heads with some without heads, floating into River Kagera. There is a place called Sango Bay. Sango Bay was all full of bodies. It is, if you go into there, you'll be able to see it. Mpigi. And the bodies were floating as far as Kisubi, your school where you're in, and all the way to ginger.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:16

So for someone who doesn't understand this, in terms of the scale, Sango Bay would be close to the Rwandan border. Or maybe the it would be after Casensiro.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:32

Yes. Then you have Sango Bay on Lake Victoria. And then there were a number of other bays. Yes. And this is where it is a watershed, and the bodies were mixed with water hyphen. And this fish importer.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:48

That's what would be the Nile Perch.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:50

The Nile Perch. This was food for the Nile perch. And in some of the areas, like in Piggy, where we went to, we drove in to try to look at see how we can rescue these bodies when we were pulling them for mass burials. We're burying them in mass graves. Some of them 3,000, 4,000 bodies mixed with lime. This is traumatizing, my brother. And I put two of my aircrafts, a Cessna 172, 5x ray golf mic mic, and another Cessna 182, which was being these two aircraft, I was flying one myself and the other one was being flown by Captain Rene to oversee and to count the try to see these bodies. They were gentlemen from State Department. That's the CIA, whatever they are, State Department. They wanted now to come and quantify, and they had counters. I put them in that aircraft, those aircrafts on a daily basis, at my cost. These were my aircraft, personal aircraft. I had five aircrafts. But these were two single-engine aircrafts, the Cessna 172 and a Cessna 182. And so they'll go counting? They would count bodies. But I talked to Patrick Mazimpaka. The late. The late Patrick Mazimpaka. Oh, he's dead now?

SPEAKER_05 1:15:19

Yes, he passed away a few years ago.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:21

The late Patrick Mazimpaka told me, try to justify, try to make sure that all these bodies that you have, you quantify them. I mean, lay out a matrix where you have children, you have female, you have male, and try as much as possible, have the totals, numbers that you are getting and where you are burying them in order to justify genocide. And for the first time, I put a team from BBC and Ryuta from Nairobi who flew in in Twentebe, picked them and drove them personally with my vehicle to Casensiro. These pictures to see the bodies. To justify genocide. My brother, these were very painful, very, very painful. When you talk about Kivoka. Remembrance. The remembrance. It is in my head permanently because I remember I took Cardinal Wamala. Now he's 100 years. I picked him from the Rubaga Cathedral. In my car, Bronco, an American car left and right. Two of us alone. I picked a cardinal from Rubaga and drove him to Casensiro. He only stopped in uh one of the cathedrals to pray before we went there. And um when we got to Casensiro, I remember there was a body. This struck us. There were many bodies that were flowing in. There was a body of uh a lady who had a child in her back. And she had this suka, the the ones the Rwandese ladies wear. And she had a baby in her back. But the skin was off, and but the clothes were still around, wrapped around her.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:52

I think they were wrapped around the baby as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:54

And the body had expanded, wrapped around the baby. I tell you, this has been one of my most painful, very, very painful sights. Because I remember Cardinal Wambana exclaimed in Luganda, forgot even English, Luganda. Bikira Maria to Saseri. Bikira Maria to Sasi. Then he held on to his crucifix.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:29

His rosary.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:30

Rosary. And started praying. This woman had died in the most painful way, but the clutching of the baby showed that she died but never let go of a baby. People who do not know about genocide and the extrajudicial killings, the pain that was subjected to the people do not know what it means. So when you see, when we see that kind of uh happening, and when later on this was broadcast in BBC, realtor distributed it to many of the broadcast houses globally, is when the world now got to see that the UN, which was supposed to be the peacekeeping force, abandoned the Rwandes. Abandoned the Rwandes. And even those who were trying to jump into the C-130s and different aircraft, each country in the European axis, the American is the British, and so on, and so on, those who were part of the peacekeeping force abandoned the Rwandis and took only their people and left them to die, to be killed with impunity. That pain. And that's why you want to note, and those who are who are intelligent enough to listen to this, to say that when we talk about African solutions to the African problems, the Europeans, the most powerful, left Africans to die. And when we buried people in mass graves, 2000, 3,000, 6,000, thousands and thousands of them. And when you witness pigs, dogs drugging people at the shores, and so on and so forth, seeing bodies float. Many people suffer from memory lapse. But this is alive and it is active in my mind. To date, it was like it just happened. So the pain in me is deep to the bone marrow.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:04

You told me about when you came into Biumba with the wife of the Italian Prime Minister to rescue some orphans. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:20

We asked President Miseveni and actually for that belt, Mpg and Casensiro, Rakai, all the way this way. I asked the president to declare a state of emergency to first for to buy it. But later on, they I asked the president to allow us and to give us some of the vehicles. And he was courteous enough to provide that from State House. And we went to Biumba.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:01

That's Northern Rwanda. At the time it was controlled by the RPF by that. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:06

And we in one of the homestead picking children, her interest was mainly children because the parents had been killed. Her interest was mainly children who she did not want to have to suffer the post-traumatic effect of the war. So these children, most of them were below the age of 10, 12, that age, young, young children. In one of the homesteads, I do recall banana plantations, Mabati, old Mabati houses. And from the front, you could see men, the family all wiped out, all killed. But we had a noise, small noise, we thought it was maybe a puppy or a dog of a child saying, ah, ah, there is of a child. So when we went behind, we saw all of a sudden a child, maybe three months. I have a picture of that here. A child, maybe three months or thereabouts. She had a cut on the head, sucked holding on to a breast of the mother. Oh no. And the mother was long gone. That was a very painful sight, my brother. Very painful. In that when we brought this child and was crying, and the first thing we had was baby milk. This instant milk that was given. The Italians had all that. They had that in their group. There were a number of them. Those were brought in a bus, one bus that was being provided by the president, President Seveni, brought them to Entebe. At the airport, we had one aircraft, a C-130, and Italian Air Force, but with Red Cross, it had a road star there, which had been organized by this lady Maria Pia Fanfani. She's dead now. At the airport, I do recall that they were being prepared. They didn't even have documents. These are children who were picked from another country into Uganda, and they had to prepare documents for them to travel to Italy, to Rome. Clothes were being given to them. They were dirty. This lady was so kind. And what happened therein is I remember Mama Janet Museveni came from State House. And she personally, the first lady, personally, was bathing these children. You saw this by your myself like this. But she would be overwhelmed by the cries of the baby and so on. And of course, these babies have wounds, they have cut and so on. She could not, she was sometimes overwhelmed, and she, being a mother, she knew what it was. And the cries of the children alone, the pain, the cries of these orphans. And she would go to the bathroom. Sometimes she would go overwhelmed and cry in the bathroom. You saw that. First one today. That lady is so gracious. May God Almighty give her life. Very kind. Mama Jedi B7 is a very kind person. I also saw the kabak of Uganda. He's alive, he knows it. If he watches this, he will see it for himself. Coming from the southwestern part of Africa, and he landed at the airport. And he saw this, you could see he was overwhelmed by the pain as a father. Now, these kind of things eventually when they took off, and I was there personally to see them, as they closed the door to fly these children, 48 of them, to Rome. As we waved them off, these were orphans from Rwanda and being taken to another country to be given care. And they were taken to a military hospital in Rome. After some time, if you do recall, this was in about a little after maybe June, July, when they were taken to Rome in the military hospital. Remember there was the World Cup between Italy, with I think Nigeria or something. And they went to the penalty shootout. Eventually, Italy, the Italians won. And at that time, Italy was, which is a sporting country, football, the fanatics and so on, now lit what he called the fireworks. And these fireworks were, you know, the crackers are like bombs. And these children, all of a sudden, who were shocked and surprised, started running out of the hospital from the rooms that were in. Young children, thinking that the interior Hamway had come back. a very painful experience. So I want to tell you that um when Rwanda takes a defensive position, when they go through these challenges, you can really appreciate their justification. It is a it's a very difficult time to when you say that never again. It comes from this background. It comes from a painful history. Never should people Africans same culture same history same color same religion and so on and so forth. Kill each other with impunity and yet they kill themselves with a plain view of God Almighty.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:02

How inhuman can Africans beyond I just want to take a moment to thank all of you who've been a part of the long form journey. Every view comment and subscription has helped us grow and get to where we are today. But here's the thing about 72% of the people who actually watch this podcast haven't subscribed yet. We want to keep bringing you even bigger conversations with even bigger guests, including, let's say, even the president of this country. But this milestone starts with you. Subscribing is free, but it makes a huge difference. It tells our guests that what we're building here matters and that it's worth their time appearing on my platform. So please help us and hit that subscribe button and we'll promise to keep delivering powerful, meaningful conversations. Thank you so much. Now let's get into the episode it's tough. It's tough. Fortunately as you say the genocide lasted a hundred days. Yeah. And fortunately the RPF won if I'm not mistaken you might have been the very first person who landed on liberation. You flew in your plane.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:25

I President Buseveny State House gave me the instructions now I can talk about this I can declassify it. It was classified this is classified information for a long time but I was the first I had an aircraft late which was a 19 CT. And we flew from Entebe to Kanombe International Airport. I was the first to land post liberation no aircraft had landed in Kanombe airport after all this debacle to pick present Paul Kagame and you had a number of people Dr. Ndahiro now I don't know I don't know I think he's a general now Toijin was the Secretary General of RPF and a number of other senior people I'm told now he's in exile or something but that's their matter I don't get involved in their internal being but I picked them flew them to Rwanda because we just landed picked him and flew him back here. But later on I kept flying into Rwanda and I have seen Rwanda as a country that was wasted a failed state what was the state of the airport when you landed the first time it had um bullets shutters and so on and so forth but it was still intact.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:13

How was the runway?

SPEAKER_04 1:32:14

The runway was okay but approaching also you could see left and right you could see the scars of the war because obviously as you're approaching from the side of the landing in Canombe International Airport you fly over the that time Habilmana Statehouse and there is also barracks nearby so I I I I could see all this and you felt 100% safe flying here for me for me I'll tell you one thing for this just cause I was prepared to risk my life and to risk my even my own aircraft and if there are people who lost their lives even my my brother Major General Fredrick lost his life and many others what is one soul for the but you thought about it for the just cause but of millions of people I I hear you but you were also aware of the dangers they were dangers definitely another PG could bring you down a 12.7mm gun anti-aircraft could bring you down and a machine gun and would be able to bring you down cause problems and so on and so forth different types of equipment now could bring you down.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:51

This was only two days after but it was important for you to note that um two days after liberation two days after two days after Kigali fell so that would be around the 6th or the 7th whatever date I don't recall the date but this was two days after Kigali fell to RPA.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:11

You came picked they were waiting at the VAP three VAP the presidential dies after we touched I went and picked the team packed and then got them seated and we flew out we packed it at the end state house came and picked them so I know I know what it meant and I must really salute the fighters of Arapie the Arapie went through an enduring experience and I think that it's important that um President Kagame should start to put together document his memoirs just like Fidel Castro did Che Guavera did President Seven did and most of the Mao Zedong did in China and most of the liberation fighters people like Nelson Mandela and so on and so forth we should not miss the opportunity like we had with the Mozambican leaders in the struggle because if you do recall Samora Machel never got the opportunity to write his book but Mwalibulias documented every aspect of his life I really urge my brother Jero Kagame the president of Rwanda with all due respect to try to start documenting. I'm very sure he must be working towards that but it's one of the memories that the children our children and the young tax would love to read absolutely what it means to bring a country from ashes to prosperity and to drive it to a modern state like Singapore did of um of uh a country that was a failed state abandoned the those memoirs are very important.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:34

You know when we talk about stability everyone talks about stability no one talks about the price that has to be paid for stability.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:43

You're talking about Karamoja you've also talked about the war in in in Lango the war in Acholiland and all of those were wars that in a that did not end just because of dialogue you know sometimes force and other extremely hard decisions need to be made to create stability to create peace so maybe let's let's now widen the conversation what is the line between creating stability and creating long-term resentment because sometimes someone would say the cost of stability was too much yes you've given us stability but now I resent you I hate you because you've caused pain to me so I want to you're a man who's been at the heart of creating stability where is that line where you're able to as a society move on without ending up creating the ingredients for a new insurgency a new set of resentments I think the point is the African continent Africa for four hundred years we had our people being sold as commodities by the Europeans and you'll find that I've been to a the port in Senegal in Dhaka they call it Go Island Gore Gore Island yes where you see and you see the documented history of the movement of our people five people in a family a mother a father two daughters one son being taken to different destinations never to meet again and never to see each other again you just liken this five hundred years after to Rwanda where you have a mother a father two daughters and a son all being killed never to never ever again to witness life or to see life or to see Rwanda after what am I saying there's what you call reconcilable differences there's what you call irreconcilable differences all and I want to give you again another very clear narrative Uganda under Jerome Seven went in 1985 into the peace talks in Kenya chair by the late president Moy these peace talks as they were going on they reached what you call irreconcilable differences where after even signing the peace agreement extrajudicial killings impunity and what you call autocratic and unfortunate incidences being recorded even during the peace talks President Seven said no I think we have reached irreconcilable differences despite the peace talks despite us coming together hammering out what you call the key points of our differences but where we have reached is reconcilable meaning that if you cannot adher to the letter of the agreement and you still continue with that even if we have a government of national unity NRA coming together with UNLA these differences will again spark the best way is to go for a showdown and President Miseveni went for a showdown when the peace talks broke down in November within two months or one and a half months NRA had taken over power and by the 26th of January 1986 into power seven was handed off was given the instruments of power by legal notice number one what am I saying I think that when he saw that going into bed with these fellows may not help the country may not achieve the purity we're talking about and may not be able to give us despite the loss of lives of the fighters in that five years will not achieve what we want the best thing is to go for a showdown. And indeed you can see that there's been a marked difference from therein the country for the first time it is only NRM which can boast post-colonial period of having a government or a party or an organization which brings together all the people of Uganda into one. And the same applies to RPA and RPF. It is only President Kagame who has now been able to come out having had irreconcilable differences with the peace talks in Arusha and said no we'll go for a showdown because we seem not to be edging towards what we want.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:12

So what you're saying so that I can understand this is that you can always aim for dialogue until there is a line that you cannot cross. The Rubico and in your what you're saying is that that line is when there's no humanity present. For example in Rwanda as soon as the genocide started the RPF moved to end the genocide but also to kick out the government that it had been in peace talks with are you saying that that is because you you you also talked about the arrows that you helped form is that because you realized that the Kony rebels were they could not be negotiated with that there was a line that you and them got irreconcilable differences and said you know what we have to There is where you can agree to agree there is also where you can agree to disagree where's the third place but there's also where you go for a win-win situation but the final position is when you see that this is irreconcilable and that point comes out from certain tenants of what your mission is because every struggle is mission based every struggle and if your mission is to liberate the country in order to achieve what you call the minimums and for the natural resistance movement they had a 10-point program which had to be achieved later on it was enhanced to a 15 point program you look always as Mao Zaitung talked about Mao Zetung the big picture there's a saying in English that if you want to make an omelette you must break it break a few eggs.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:30

Yes now there is a liberation movement is not a tea party a liberation movement entails sacrifices it entails loss of life it is sweat and blood you have to work towards achieving the cause every war has a cause and every war has a casualty it is that is the cost of it the cost of war has a casualty but there's what we call a just cause now RAPA had a just cause NRA had a just cause now all this put together and many other liberation movements the Cuban revolution the Chin the the Chinese revolution by CCP China Communist Party you have also got the North Korean MPLA in the in the Mozambique the Rwandese I mean the Angola and so on ANC MKSwe all these are just causes because there is no way you can go to bed with apathy no way or with genocide or genocide upper side or genocide there's no way you can go to bed with them in order to put the matter to bed there has to be a ribucode. That rebuker or red line must be drawn if you cross that once or twice that is irreconcilable because you are inflicting damage to the cause you are hurting the cause. So those are the minimums of a liberation struggle.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:19

And this is my last question to you because you've talked about the ingredients of a liberation struggle you've also spoken about the the sacrifices that a liberation struggle must be ready to bear when I spoke to you you you spoke about we were talking about the NRM because one of the things that you've done you've also been a major player in the NRM and you are what I'd call a senior citizen although you do not look like one at all but you are you you said that one of the biggest failures that you think the NRM has had is the lack of cross-generational dialogue that the the men and women of the 80s who created the Yugana that exists today and even helped create the the the Rwanda that exists today that they that as they get older that the the the the patriotism the revolutionary fire is still within you but is not being transmitted if as you say that is what is happening if that continues what happens to the the future and stability of Uganda in the next 20 years when you when your cohort is no longer when it's no longer here you have got to look at the demographic bulge this demographic bulge for example look at Uganda 80% of the population is below the age of 30 55% of the population is below the age of 16 years between those children born today and eight years and four years there are 8 million children above the age of 80 there are 2470 obviously there is a variance and if you are to have what you call a realistic narrative or discussion on the paradigm shift the mindset change we have what you call the ideological line the big picture the young people

SPEAKER_04 1:50:01

Look at this liberation or this struggle as they read as if they are reading the Bible or slave trade. They're reading history. But today you're talking about the reality of life, which you cannot interpret to the young people. So they are not ideological. When you talk about the 10-point program over the 15-point program, they may not want to listen to it. Very few will pay attention to what you're talking about. Why? Because the pillars of governance, there is no what you call cross-generational dialogue. And that's why President Seven talks about Bazukuru. The challenges, the new challenges, the challenges we face at that time are different from the challenges the young people are facing this time. At that time, we faced insecurity, being in exile, seeking for self-determination. Our cause was different. The young people, their cause is different. They are talking about jobs. They're talking about poverty. Number one is poverty. The youth are looking at opportunities in order for them to live a decent life. They want to be like me. Okay, I came out from a poor background. My father and mother separated. I was a very poor young man. But I thank God that I've worked hard to get to where I am. I'm self-made. There are many young people who are looking at who are who do not have money, both rural and urban. There are many young people who do not have jobs, much as most of them are more educated. Don't forget, by 1962, when we got independence, we had only 103 graduates, two masters. One university, small university, has more than that, graduating hundreds and thousands of gradients. At that time, 1962, from the time Adam and Eve left Eden, we had only 103 graduates. What does that mean? The narrative now and the discussion we had before is different. And I want to tell you that when you talk about poverty, youth unemployment, corruption, ignorance, you talk about service delivery, going to hospital and they need medicine, and so on and so forth. These are the fundamentals of a modern society. The young people now talk about AI. Young people now talk about Wi-Fi. They want to get data on their phones. Don't talk about liberation to them, ideology to them. That's why we find that now cross-generational dialogue is very crucial in order to manage transition and to manage success. Managing success entails a lot of dialogue so that there is no miscarriage of succession. Because success without succession is a failure. And that's why I'm calling for intergenerational dialogue.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:25

How is has the transition started? Do you think?

SPEAKER_04 1:53:30

Transition is not only leadership. Transition is about many aspects of life. Those fundamentals I'm talking about. Because if you talk about the young men then of 1981, 1980s, the young men of 1986, the Rojemas, the Kagames, the Msevenis, and so on, that's different from the new group now. The new group has a different perception and expectation. You're managing perceptions and expectations. The new group has a young people, they are more global. They're now living in a global village. They're on TikTok, information moves quickly. Both false, what you call fake news and real news, they deal with AI, artificial creation of uh of uh of reality, and rapid information flow. You're talking about uh social media platforms like X or Twitter. You are on several platforms. If you look at it this way, before everybody was coming to read the newspaper and listen to the radio. Now, I don't know when a generation like yours last read the new vision or monitor. That tells you that there is what you call a mindset change. That mindset change calls for a paradigm shift. When I was in Harvard, Kennedy School of Government, I did political and economic reform. You now look at different paradigms, and it is case studies that determine the drive towards a new evolution of uh world order. You now see that whatever happens in Vietnam will get to be known in Uganda or in Palestine or in New York or in the capital of in Moscow, it will be broadcast globally at the spark of the moment. You now have satellites, you now have high-speed information flows, the highway of information has become so broad that what changed the world were four key pillars civilization, education. When you talk about agrarian revolution, you talk about the industrial revolution, scientific revolution. Now you talk about ICT and information technology and AI. This tells you that the world is dynamic, it's moving into modern transformation every day. Now, in terms of governance, you've got to redefine your leadership interests. Rwanda has got one of the youngest ministers who is ICT. She's below the age of 30, I think. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 1:56:41

She's below 40, though.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:43

Whatever it is. Now, very young. And many other positions. That is managing transition. Okay? How about here? We're equally doing the same. The minister of sports is a young man. The minister of investment, a young lady. You have got many others who are young. But you see, a forest is made of tall, old trees and young trees. You cannot cut a forest and cut the tall trees. You need the tall trees to bring up and give shade to the young trees. But the forest continues to manifest. The point I'm trying to tell you, there has to be cross-generational and intergenerational dialogue. Interests have now come on board where you have the interests of gender, the women. Rwanda has got over 60, maybe in some areas, even 70% in some sectors, in governance. These are new interests which have come in. But it comes out from the foundation. Two, you've also got the army. The army can no longer exercise extrajudicial killings as it used to be and get away with it. The armies are more disciplined than 40-50 years ago. You now look at this young man who killed uh four children. Okay? Four children. Here in Kampala. In Kampala, in Gabba. The trial is being undertaken right there. It is in the past, if it was Idi Amin, they would have been, he would have been eliminated a long time ago. He would have disappeared. But now, the rule of law and order, the constitution prevails. You throw the book, the penal code to him, but also show the population that if you do this, you will go through the due process and be punished. Now, these are now new ingredients of governance. But the discussion about it is that there has to be civility, there has to be reality. You must also have the focus for both short-term, medium-term, and long range. You must take care of the interests and expectations of the young generation. Because if you don't, it's a powder cake. It's a ticking bomb. You must also change the curriculum of education. Africa for a long time has focused on degrees. But when you look at countries like Japan, South Korea, China, India, and so on, what you call, and some Tiger countries, they have concentrated more on fintech technology, and so that you can provide jobs for this young population. But somebody who has gone to school and studied, for example, conflict resolution, religious education, social education or social sciences, and so on and so forth, geography, how does that apply to the job market? So you must be able to create, that's what I'm talking about, the intergeneration dialogue. You now must be able to prepare a population to meet the expectations of the new world order. And that's why you see that Africa is well resourced. DRC Congo, for example, is 92 times the size of Rwanda, 11 times the size of Uganda. It is highly resourced. It has got everything is potentially richer than the United States of America and Europe put together. How do you deal with this? The best way, in my view, is to really focus on what you call the fundamentals. What do you do in order to meet the expectations? You need now to bring in the common market. Uganda manufactures, it has got excess milk. We have 5.3 billion liters of milk per annum. You need to add value to it and export to the region. Congo imports this from Brazil, from Europe, from Australia. We are just a border away from them. Now, all these are fundamentals that must come in and dovetail to the long-range view and expectations of the African continent, a common market, common trade, free flow of people, addressing the conflicts internally. And that's why we find that the challenges you face between Rwanda and DRC Congo, these are conflicts that can be resolved by leaders. And they are very easy to sit down and address. Address the challenges, the questions that Rwanda is raising. Address the challenges and questions that DRC is raising. How do we harmonize them, both short-term, medium-term, and long term, in order to avoid what Rwanda went through? These are the questions that you must, an intelligent mind must question. Now, all this tells you that there is a common problem. What is happening in DRC Congo in Kinshasa? A population, a city of over 20 million people approximately, needs to have food and cheap food so that they can survive. Equally, what can we get from the other side? How do we intercommunicate? Moving a standard gauge railway from Mombasa to Matadi. How do we get a railway line from Cairo or Alexandria to Cape Town through Johannesburg? And so on and so forth. You look at a country like Nigeria, population of nearly 245 million people. Africa now has a population of nearly 1.5 billion people, maybe 1.4, 1.5. China has got 1.5 approximately, India 1.5. How do you prepare the population of Uganda, the population of Africa, to be a superpower like China has? How do you prepare them like India has done? How does Africa come together? These are the questions that we must ask ourselves. And now talk about intergenerational dialogue, which should not only be limited to a single country. It must be all the 52 or 54 countries of the African continent. If we don't do this, and we still remain divided along the 100 plus years from the Berlin Conference, where you have Anglophone, Francophone, Lusophone, Lucephone, Arabic, Arabic, and so on, Africa will not move out of its political quagmire and economic quagmire.

SPEAKER_05 2:04:12

Fantastic. Thank you so much, Captain. This has been a long conversation that I think has just touched the tip of the iceberg in terms of your knowledge, your experience, being a major player in the East Africa that we have today. I'd like to thank you on behalf of the audience and on behalf of myself for welcoming me into your home. And hopefully, you told me that you haven't been in Kigali since 2004 when you are watching a game between the Uganda Cranes and the Rwandan national team Damavubi. I'd like to have this conversation again one day. But this time in Kigali. How do we make that happen?

SPEAKER_04 2:05:07

I really would like to see my old friends. Some of them are passed on.

SPEAKER_05 2:05:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:12

I would like to be to pay a cutscene call. I know my my brother and my friend, General President, President Kagami, is a very busy man. But I look forward to one day sharing a meal with him. I was there when he got wedded. I was there when the children were born. They are now in the army, they are big people. Just like I've seen President Museveni and many others transform this country. He has worked hard for Rwanda, had sleepless nights. I look forward to coming into Kigali and being able to see what I've not seen for many years. Yes, it's been a post-genocide Rwanda. And a Rwanda that is a game changer in the African continent and possibly globally, a destination of transformation for the world. Captain Mike.

SPEAKER_05 2:06:13

Thank you very much. How do you say thank you in ITESO?

SPEAKER_04 2:06:16

First of all, in Rwanda you say Urakoze, Urakoze Chan. Yes. But in Ateso, you say Eyala Manoi. Elaya Manoi. Eyya. Eya. Yala. Yala Manoi. Yala Manoi. Yes. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_05 2:06:33

Thank you so much. Okay. And that's a wrap for today's conversation. Thanks for staying with us till the very end. It really means a lot. I'd love to know what was the one moment that really stood out to you? Drop it in the comments so that we can keep the discussion going. If you want to connect with us beyond YouTube or streaming platforms, you can find us on the social media platform of your choice. And if this has to talk about something for you, share it with a friend who'd love it too. Until next time, have a great week.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:10

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