Uganda, Rwanda, Congo & the Crisis of Global Power | Dr. Adonia Ayebare

In this episode of The Long Form Podcast, Dr. Adonia Ayebare discusses the hidden diplomacy behind the Uganda–Rwanda fallout, regional security in eastern Congo, and the future of Africa in an increasingly unstable global order. 

As Uganda’s Ambassador to the United Nations and a longtime advisor to Yoweri Museveni, Dr. Ayebare offers a rare behind-the-scenes perspective on how power actually works in East Africa and at the UN.

The conversation explores the role of Muhoozi Kainerugaba in repairing Uganda–Rwanda relations, the operations of the Uganda People's Defence Force in eastern Congo, the unresolved conflicts in Burundi and the Great Lakes region, and whether multilateral institutions like the United Nations still serve African states fairly. 

This is a deep discussion on diplomacy, geopolitics, power, conflict, and Africa’s future in a world increasingly shaped by force rather than rules.

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Produced by LF Media 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:36

The long form. The long form. This conversation is brought to you by Akagera Medicines, a biotech company that is majority owned by the Roman people. Akagera Medicines is not only committed to expanding access to healthcare, but also supporting conversations that inform, educate, and empower. Learn more about Akagera Medicines by scanning the QR code on your screen or by visiting their website at Akaguera Medicines.com. In this region, conflict does not just stay local. What happens in Eastern Congo affects Uganda. What happens between Uganda and Rwanda shapes a region. And behind all of this, there are decisions being made quietly in the background through diplomacy, power, and sometimes force. But how do those decisions actually happen? My guest today on the Longform Podcast is Dr. Adonia Ayebare. Dr. Ayebare is Uganda's ambassador to the United Nations and a longtime advisor to President Yoere Museveni of Uganda. He has been directly involved in some of the most sensitive diplomatic moments in the region, from the thawing of the Uganda-Rwanda relations to Uganda's engagement in Eastern Congo, while also representing the country at the highest level of global decision making. So this is not just a conversation about diplomacy. It's about how power actually works in the region and on the global stage and what that means for countries like ours. Ambassador Ayebari. Welcome to the Longform Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_04 2:18

It's a pleasure. So first of all, we're not having this conversation in New York. It's here in beautiful, sunny Kampala, although today it's been a bit rainy. Maybe the next one we'll have it over there.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Who knows? But Kampala is better, but I would want to have you in New York as well.

SPEAKER_04 2:40

Let's go. One of the the first time I really got to know your name was when there were unfortunate challenges between the two states that you actually could call home, Rwanda and Uganda. You're telling me that you are proudly East African in that your father is a Myangkole, your mom is a Nyaranda. I, on the other hand, it's the other way around. My father is Rwanda and my mom is a Mutoro. So we share that. And I got to really know your work and who you are during the times between, I think it was 2019 when we're seeing border closures and major tensions. When there's a border closure, that doesn't just say that we're stopping trade and movement of people. We're saying that there is a breakdown in trust. I don't trust you enough to allow you in my country and to allow my citizens into yours. From your position, what did the situation look like behind closed doors? Because we know what it looked like in the media, on social media. Trucks not moving, people being forced to fly rather than drive the way they used to. And I'd like to know what it looked like behind closed doors, and I'd also like to know how close it became to becoming something much, much worse. Because as we've seen in with some of these uh issues around the globe, one chess moves creates another chess move that then creates another chess move, and then all of a sudden, even us in Africa are suffering from very expensive petroleum. Walk us through that time.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Thank you. I will uh also take you back a little back like 10 years before when I became a diplomat. That's in 2009. 2007? Not earlier than that, 2005, when I became ambassador of Uganda to Rwanda. You know, 2019 is recent. We have had series of tensions. It's our relationship has been, and fortunately, it was through phases, up and down, you know, since around early 2000s. I mean, I don't want to bore you with the history, but as you know, these two countries are, you know, you go before 1990. You know, these, you know, even earlier, 1980s, these two, not governments, movements, RPF and NRM go a long way. You know, people know each other. Our leaders are one. I mean, your president could as well be a hero of the Ugandan Revolution. He was among the 27 people that liberated this country. He's my hero from that, is my liberator from that perspective. So you are dealing with two movements that know each other. But unfortunately, when the two states, I think where we failed to manage was the relationship between the two states, not the two peoples.

SPEAKER_04 6:01

So you're saying there's a difference between interstate versus interpeople. Interpeople, yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

And that is that is really fundamental. Because I don't think people, Rwandan people and Ugandan people have a problem, a fundamental problem. I mean, you actually portrayed yourself and myself. I consider myself as Ugandan, but also as Rwandese, because that's that's my origins. And I'm proud to call myself, you know, I don't want to sound American, you know, Ugandan and Rwandan. No, I'm both Ugandan and Rwandan because I share their bridges within me. But I think to really answer your question, I think there was an unfortunate tension between the two countries that went through phases, you know, that led even to the unfortunate fights in Ksangani when our two armies were in Congo pursuing, you know, security objectives. 2019 was really a culmination of a long mismanagement of the two states, affairs of the two states. And I don't want to apportion blame. It was an unfortunate situation. How do I come in?

SPEAKER_04 7:10

But maybe before you go into how you come in, so there's a lot of people, I remember during a time, so 2019, 2020, a lot of people would, young people in Rwanda, even people my age, who would ask me, but what is going on here? Why is it this way? You talk about history, there's a lot of people who actually don't even understand the history. There's an entire generation who do not, I mean, when you think about NRM, NRM has been in power since 1986. That's 40 years. The RPF has been in power for 32 years now. There's an entire generation, even two generations, that don't understand the inner workings of the personal relationships that then create the kind of state-by-state tensions that we see. Maybe you can, you know, help us understand the why. Why are there tensions? Why would there be tensions based off of what?

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah. I mean, when you introduce the concept of a state in the relationship between peoples, and I think '94, when after the genocide, when the RPF went into power, to me that was a fundamental departure, fundamental change. And this side of the border, we needed to really understand that.

SPEAKER_04 8:45

So fundamental change between what and what?

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Between people who were friends, people who had fought together in Uganda, a creation of another state, which is a Rwandan state. How now that relates to the Ugandan state is important. And I think the seeds for problems were laid in how initially that was managed. I think people took a lot of things for granted. You know, Rwanda became a state. On its own.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

Not a district of Uganda.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Yeah, and you had such a thing in the newspapers in Uganda that this was a 40th district.

SPEAKER_04 9:23

Yes, I was like 50th district.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

50th district. Then we had 40th district, now we have over 100. So to me, that was really careless. That was the beginning because states are a creation of the Western world, Western concept. And it comes with how it's managed. You know, the people, the institutions, you know, states don't need to be friends, but they need to be managed well. See? But people can be friends. Can be friends. But states don't need to be friends. Can be, they become the interests come into play. The borders. You know, me and you, we can proudly say that we became victims of borders, but most people didn't. They are Ugandans, they are one day, and that needs to be managed by our these are neocolonial states. It's difficult to manage them, huh? You know? And I think you know our leaders had to come in and make sure that, you know, they manage these states properly. I mean, the closure of the border. 2019 was a wake-up call. I had people asking me, but how could the Rwandan border be closed? Nobody has a right to close this border. But I reminded people here that the government of Rwanda can close their border.

SPEAKER_04 10:52

Why was that so shocking? It seems as if it shocked the system here.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

It did in a way because people finally realized that Rwanda was a state that could take decisions, however unparatable they are, to Uganda. And we needed to respond to that by listening and trying to figure out the reasons and respond. And I think to me that really woke up, and I hope we learned lessons that will not be repeated.

SPEAKER_04 11:25

But 26, uh because at that time it would have been 26 years. Is that 26 years? Yes. Yeah. 26 years after 94. 94. Why would it take people to understand 26 years to understand?

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Exactly. Because people don't understand that states are states. It's a European concept which we need to learn to live with. You know, you have to have a formal relationship. When I became ambassador at Kingari, I pushed an idea that we should have a memorandum of understanding on how we manage every sector. From livestock to transport, to law and order, we should have, you know, an extradition treaty so that when there is a problem, it's managed by Interstate. Not that I know Sunny. Hey, hey Sunny. You know, I'm in trouble in Rwanda, traffic, can you please help me? So, but given that the societies were interconnected and interrelated, it was difficult even for officials to understand that. But I could see that if we didn't really officialize the way we related, we were inevitably going to be in trouble. And that was fairly vocal within our system. That we needed to really make sure that the relationship was formal. And in 2019, when it happens, we are kind of stuck, we go now. How do we address this? And I think the lessons we have learned, and you asked about closed door, the way these things are perceived and done is like first, it's a shock. Second, is what did we do wrong and how can we correct it?

SPEAKER_04 13:16

I can I ask you a question? Listening to say President Paul Kagame's speeches around that time, and he would talk about I asked them to do this. We asked for this, we we talked about this, we said this and this and this. Why would you be shocked after conversations have already been had? Because if you were to tell me, Sonny, I have a problem with you because of this, this, this, this, this, and this. And if we want to continue being friends, let's let's try to figure out this, this, this, and this. And then I tell it to you in very clear language, not what we call in Kenyaran Amarenga, not uh gestures. Then where is the disconnect? Because I also also believe that communication is not just about saying, it's also about how the other person perceives the information and acts on the information. Where was the disconnect from what was being requested?

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Sunny states run by individuals and the way they process information. Even clear requests, you know, come and the way they are processed. I think the problem was the informality. The informality of the relationship between the two states has had reached a very dangerous kind of level. Informality. I mean informality. Even if a message is clear, I said, ah, we will talk to them.

SPEAKER_04 14:51

Yeah, they are my friends.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

They're my friends. We will talk to them. Then frustration builds. And and I think that's the lesson we learned from the unfortunate incidents of the border crossing in 2019. And and you know, I've been working for these states for some time now. You have to really appreciate the fact that Rwanda and Uganda is really a special case of how states how not states to relate. It's a case of how states should not re-rate. Tell me more in the past. Because you you cannot have informality running states. You have to have institutions that relate with each other across the border. You have to have channels of communication that are predictable. And as I really did my job, both as ambassador, and even after I left as ambassador, I was privileged the president to trust me to be a special envoy to Rwanda. I realized that you know we needed to do more than having personal relationships. We needed to institutionalize, but every time there was always pushback. And uh and uh until unfortunately we reached 2019. But I'm happy that some of the important people raised that. That also you needed to use those individual contacts to promote formal interstate relationships. You can, it is easy actually to build on that. Don't mistake me, you know. Individual relationships are important. That's how I managed to work as ambassador in Kigari at a very difficult time. You know, given my unique background, you know, having relationships across the border. I would use those relationships to make sure that we advance our interests. And interests between Rwanda and Uganda are easier to discern. They are not, we don't have a border conflict. You know, people-to-people relationships are excellent. Now, later, another really positive layer was added. We are part of the East African community. When the treaty really allows the movement of people and goods, so easy to manage relationship on paper.

SPEAKER_04 17:18

Paper is so easy.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

But again, I'm happy that now we are in a better space. And as the relationship became really intractably complex to manage, other players came on board. To play as spoilers, to spray, to play a positive role.

SPEAKER_04 17:36

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SPEAKER_02 20:03

We had a lot of spoilers from both sides. A lot of spoilers.

SPEAKER_04 20:07

Were they individual states or organizations or individuals?

SPEAKER_02 20:10

No, no, individuals, powerful individuals. On both sides of both sides of the border. And I dealt with both of them. And here they would push back. There they would push back. And I had partners in Rwanda that I worked with that saw that really was the same thinking.

SPEAKER_04 20:28

What were the why okay? Let's because you said you dealt with spoilers on both sides. So to understand the problems, it's also sometimes good to also understand what we call them spoilers, but it's also maybe someone with a counter-narrative.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:44

So help me understand your experience of, say, what was the counter-narrative?

unknown 20:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:51

Say in Uganda, what was the counter narrative in Rwanda?

SPEAKER_02 20:54

You know, spoilers in the sense that, you know, when you're managing such a states, you know, there is a there is a tendency to be nationalistic. They are wrong and we are correct. I think it was more complex than that. Then when you believe like that, you inevitably become a spoiler. You know, you have to realize that these are states with interests. You I cannot be a Ugandan official and say Uganda does not, Rwanda does not have its interests that are called, that I must respect and respond to. Or vice versa. And that was lacking. It was a zero-sum game. I I win and they lose. Exactly. And we found ourselves in that situation. And to me, when Rwanda joined the East African community, to me, I celebrated why our interests were intertwined.

SPEAKER_04 21:45

But then when I think about Uganda and Rwanda, I see us as a there is no interest of Rwanda that goes and tie the interests of fundamentally of absolutely Uganda and vice versa. Why ours should be I think sometimes the easiest ones.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Absolutely. Absolutely absolutely. And once you do that conceptualization, it's easy to understand. But in reality, when it collides with reality there is a problem. But it should be easy. I mean look at both countries I mean one time I made I did an experiment when the problems between Rwanda and Uganda were at its climax. I sat at Katuna border on the Ugandan side. I sat there for a whole day and counted tracks that were crossing from Rwanda to Uganda and from Uganda to Rwanda. And the tracks that were crossing to Uganda were 10 times more than the ones that were crossing from I said Uganda here has a trade advantage. Why wouldn't I protect that by promoting a good relationship? You see now I'm going to core national interests even from that whatever angle you look at it the balance of trade is a win-win it's a win-win. So then the East African community brings in a treaty that really makes all East African countries one even to defense and security. You know the the sovereign areas where states cooperate they are clear guidelines. I think when I think the issue of siblings comes in I think when siblings fight it becomes more intractable than people who don't know each other. But we had to reach a stage where we had to become grown up siblings and really improve and really but to really thank our leaders both President Seven and President Kagami it could have been worse.

SPEAKER_04 23:53

What could let's create a worst case scenario because again things when when border closures come into being I think I was having a conversation with one of our mutual friends Andrew Mwenda last year and he was talking about just how close it was it was to actual armed conflict. And I was previous and that's what was it actually you know you hear there's you there's him then there's you right was it actually as it was it was and that kept me awake at night there was actually going to be a shooting war.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah and we would have reached a stage me and you maybe would not be seated here.

SPEAKER_04 24:35

Really?

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Yeah it would have taken us generations of the relationship that was there that even people's people would have taken tickets back leave around the government because thank God we we we avoided that but also thank our leaders yeah and I can testify but why would we go to war?

SPEAKER_04 24:56

I I again there is you know it's one of those things it it it's not a we you know we're talking off camera about logic. What is the logic of such a war where two highly dense countries a hop skip and a jump away Kabale is right there. Nyagatare, Byumba, Rengeri it's it's it it would be a conflict that would have taken both countries.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Absolutely absolutely and when I was there's no winner. There's no winner and that was a no brainer but you know the escalation ladder thing. Walk us through that yeah you one move leads to another and it's very predictable one move leads to leads to another one move leads to another distension the closing the border you know you know leads to suspicion leads to espionage from both sides. Then citizens become victims Rwandans are arrested in Uganda then everything starts you know you you lose control. But I think what what what what really helped and I can tell you is that I was involved and I really really leadership helped of our presidents from both sides. They really made sure that there was room for reconciliation. There was room for the escalation at every stage and they were they were frustrated like we were frustrated as citizens and they always left room open for for dialogue and I think they knew at one stage this will really be resolved. So they really didn't climb the escalation ladder themselves.

SPEAKER_04 26:58

The officials did how is okay again you're the between the two of us you're the one who's a government official so I don't understand how I guess fundamentally states work. If the head of state has given some kind of I guess what we'd call direction that I don't believe we should start going down this this escalation ladder that you're you're talking about then why would officials who purport to report to him go through those processes?

SPEAKER_02 27:33

When I think uh when head of states wake up in the morning they have people who report to them and they act on what they report to them. There is an abused word mostly called intelligence why is it abused? I mean it's you know it's potentially dangerous this is what is going on and unfortunately sometimes the heads of state can brief it sometimes it's true sometimes it's not sometimes the context matters and they they go with that and uh us as officials we can mislead them by you know I mean I will give you an example of the US and Israel they are the closest allies but the issues of spying on each other come and but the strategic interests remain you know people are arrested for espionage that is a small matter but the strategic and the strategic relationship between Uganda and Rwanda is easy to define it's the interests are bigger than us.

SPEAKER_04 28:36

So I I think that's what was missing and now we are in a good place you know I worked hard I worked for for years on this I can tell you until our current chief of defense forces came on the scene yeah let me let me ask you about that a lot of people noticed that things started moving in the right direction when uh General Mohose Kinerugawa got involved absolutely but then why I mean he's he's an army man yeah he's not a trained diplomat yeah why do you why does it feel like that channel worked whereas formal diplomacy hadn't worked the way it should have uh formal diplomacy had really reached a dead end why because of the mismanaging the escalation ladder and you needed somebody that comes and thinks outside the box and and he understood the interests he understood the importance of the relationship between Uganda and Rwanda from the perspective of people to people and the history and also he had a unique opportunity of being who he is what do you mean of being head of the army but being son of the president but also close relationship with President Kagame and and he really used that position some of us use these positions you know to do good he used it to really open up the relationship between the two countries and he did it in real time a short time walk us through that how does that happen he comes on the scene I think the end of 2019 if I remember and and within two weeks he visits President Kagami and the border is open.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Were you you were there during that period I was there but remember I'm in New York but I'm doing a lot of trips to the region but when a decision was taken that he should take the lead I supported him from the background but he took the lead what what what risk was there? Because by the time you you it was very public I remember him he tweeted that I'm going to go and visit my uncle at every level things could have gone right or left what were the risks that he took he took he took vast he took risks because look here the the relationship had always for 20 years up and down but when he came in he took a risk but it was a culturated risk what was the risk the risk was that look yeah this can't go on you know there is I have to throw everything at this to make sure that the relationship works and also the risk he took of course was cynicism by officials from both sides or let's see we we've you know where everything has failed how can he succeed skepticism but he is not a person that succumbs to sexism. I think he was convinced that you know he will go there in good faith and uh and he did.

SPEAKER_04 31:57

Were there any people from his side the side here where they said you know if you go to Kigali you might get killed absolutely absolutely that that actually he'd come and get murdered that's you know not get murdered like I mean but that's no that's getting killed.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Yeah yeah but not that dramatic but but there were security concerns but as a leader he when you talk you see that when you use words like security concerns I mean like his own safety but but I mean he look here his own safety you've said his own safety but that one that was could be easily addressed fixed could be negotiated I mean how was he going to be looked after that could be but that's again described statesmanship him he was not worried about that he believed that you know what I'm going there I'll be safe I'll be safe I'm meeting people I know yeah I'm going to Yeah but there are people normally who always get worried on behalf of such a people you know not to underestimate with due respect their their concerns or their impact but he did that and and went and uh and uh and really when history is written between our two countries his intervention was critical I can tell you walk us through his intervention I mean he's in look here the border continues being closed despite not only involvement of diplomats on both sides but also regional heads of state remember we had had meetings at Katuna you know where the president of Angora president of DRC were mediating the border still could not open again why there was something missing which was trust there was a deficit of trust in again officials both sides of the border had lost credibility including me in the sense that uh we are not in danger we were not creating enough trust we are not convincing our principals to really take that decision which is interesting because the principals are people one of the stories that Musebein talks about is about 1984 85 his family was in a car yeah and they were stopped by UNLA soldiers and the people who actually came to rescue him was General Salim Saleh the late Fred Rejemma and President Paul Kagame who was then in the NRA and because of being saved he was in the car with his wife and his young son so when you tell me that the principals that they couldn't trust it it it tells me there's a major breakdown. Yeah there was a major breakdown because remember people had died in Xangani so those are things of 2000 two 2003 they kept they were not solved they continued the tension between officials and also what I talked about institutionalization. I always asked my colleagues do you have phones you can't even call each other when they are when there is tension or when there is a problem yet they have each other's each other so there was suspicion and uh it built up into the situation in 2019 that was the you know the the climax the the straw that broke the camel's back but again we learned lessons from that and I think what General uh Kinerugaba did was to show that if there is direct communication and trust because he was trusted on the other side why do you think they that the Paul Kagame President Paul Kagame trusted him so much? Because he had known him for a long time as a young boy as a young growing up and General Mohoso will tell you and he has said it publicly that he's his hero hey before we dive back into the conversation are you a business looking to grow your reach an organization hoping to connect with a youth or a market leader with a great product you want people to know about?

SPEAKER_04 36:14

You can advertise right here on the Longform Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 36:17

Reach out to us on our email commercial at sunnyombia.com or on our phone number 0795462739 let me repeat on our phone number 0795462739 we'd love to help you tell your story and now back to the conversation you know and remember during our years of tension and all that general pinion was not in the system he became in the system later he was a junior officer came in the system later by 2019 he was already in the system and he was observing and I think frustrated like everybody so he realized that maybe he can be the one to solve it and he took a personal risk and I can tell you you know when history is written I know things I can't say on record that motivated him to the frustrations that he was not up about many things that were going on on both sides. And he decided to plunge in and it really worked it shows you that formal diplomacy itself has its limitations. You know one of the things that when if you want to hear from General Mohose Kenerugawa you you the when to hear his voice it's it's you don't really hear him speak that often you know and and so I'm left wondering when you hear him speak you don't you you obviously he's a soldier soldier but you wonder behind closed doors how is he able to get someone like President Kagame through conversation to break the ice and then come up with something that what level of communication what kind of finesse let me tell you what General Mohes has more than us and me and many others is a great listener he listens more than he talks he's a great listener he listens and listens keenly and responds when he has to he's a man of few words is a man of few words but a man also of action you know once he listened and he's a fair minded also he's fair minded so I think what happened was once he listened to and there is immense respect there has to be immense respect in that kind of space between the two and you can see the asymmetrical power president Kagame is a is he's his uncle like he says he's a president but he listens with respect and I'm sure there was conservation conversations and once he was convinced and of course he's not the president he has to come back and report to his president who also happens to be his father so it removes a certain I guess as a and uh and uh I think the president doesn't take him there is no father-son relationship in some of those things oh really he's a commander in chief so and he comes he has to come and report back but I guess the difference is as you were talking about intelligence yeah absolutely right is you if a president has to make a decision yeah he also has to believe that the information that I'm getting is honest and has no other interests absolutely then is that what the difference was do you think yeah that's what the difference was and uh and uh by dealing with President Kagame for many years he's uh he's a very direct person very direct so you know what he wants you know what he wants and uh you have to respond is with what you want and try to have a discussion you know the communication he's direct has to be direct and he he gives you the message that is direct to the his colleague you see and and uh and I think that's really what happens and once he came back to the president here he had a direct he had you know the President Kagame's real position undistilled undistilled and and I think that helped things that was really the game changer that you had a messenger because he was a messenger between the two that was both credible that but could go an extra mile that had trust of both principles you know both official and non-official and and that's why things things that were I mean the border was closed for two years plus within two weeks things started getting it was quite it was quite fast quite fast and look at where the relationship is um I can tell you now in the official dom between Uganda and Rwanda when I'm in New York with the Rwandan Martin Ngoga I don't need to be in the meeting if Martin Ngoga is there I will call him and say what happened vice versa that did not exist before that did not exist before this tension had gone all to every single level of state relationship people saw each other as uh suspicion and all that I mean the bad experiences we had I mean fielding candidates against each other when was that the international the international court of justice positions which had never happened seventeen and kurunziza who was a judge and uh and uh you know you find the attorney general there the former attorney general of Rwanda Johnston of Sinjai my cousin we again he's filled in the cousin I'm on this side fighting so so but all this has gone but it must have put you in a very strange position that how do you and this is just now as as a as a man right so there's you you're probably wondering I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and it must have been so strange that you're thinking okay I'm doing my job but this is silly right you're I'm doing my job I'm doing what I've been instructed but at a fundamental level this is just silly yeah yeah it is uh it is silly but serious it's silly but serious because these are interstate relations I found myself as a privileged person the most privileged person who could improve I was kind of idealistic who could improve the relationship between the two countries I was uniquely positioned or someone would say you are also uniquely vulnerable absolutely but I took the vulnerability out of the way I was like I am the senior official of Uganda that can really improve the relationship between the two countries. And uh I remember some of my bosses Will say, what's wrong with your cousins? On the other side when they're upset. And I will tell them, but my cousins think there is something wrong here. So that kind of helped. I remember having an argument with one of the senior officials here, who was really hard lying. When it came to the relationship between Rwanda and Uganda. And uh it became heated at one stage. And uh I told Ibukia, I have a personal interest in this relationship. Do you know where I come from? I come from Isinjiro. If there is war, my home will be the first one, my people will be the first one to be dispressed. You come from far from the border with Rwanda, you don't care. So I have an interest in solving this. And he says, Oh, now I know. Now I respect humor.

SPEAKER_04 44:54

Respect humor or more suspiciously.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

No, no, because there is no suspicion. I have to, I have a right to have interests. You see? You know, being an official doesn't mean you don't have interests.

SPEAKER_04 45:08

That are your own.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

That are my own. I have relatives on the other side. You know, I have cousins when I have a wedding, when I have a funeral, vice versa. So I have an interest in a relationship that works. And I think when you have officials that, and the president, my president this side respected me for that. Because I would put the interest, I said, Look here, I want this thing to end. Okay at a national level, but also at a personal level. You know, I became kind of outspoken, and I'm still still I am, and really the East African project bailed me out. You know? What do you mean? In a sense that, I mean, tell me, when you read the East African Treaty, the relationship between Uganda and Rwanda becomes immaterial. The interests are intertwined from trade, movement of people and goods to defense and security. We have a common security architect. We are talking about a political federation. So where are our differences coming? If that is the framework that guides our relationship.

SPEAKER_04 46:20

I guess our differences come in when there's ego and what it also calls petty interests or petty disinterests, as you said. You know, when someone has nothing, no stake in the game, then they can play it the way they want to.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

I'll give you an example. There was a family, there was a family friend of mine in Rwanda, the Midrangers.

SPEAKER_04 46:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 46:45

You know, their dad dies. He comes from where I come from in Isinjiro. The border is crossed. The ride is like two hours from the border with Rwanda. From Kigari three hours too. They are home in Isinjiro. They all had to fly with Rwanda Air. And that was the contradiction. Rwanda Air was open for the elites to interact. The air transport and they had to drive all the way from Kampara to Isinjiro. You know how long it takes? Nine hours. That hit me. They're almost delayed for the funeral, huh? What are we doing to our people? So, so so you see, and I'm sure people both, and I have families from both sides, they were like, What are you up to, you guys who work in government?

SPEAKER_04 47:39

Actually, just asking you about you people.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

That you people. They would actually call you people. Then I there was one incident that took off my head, which I don't have. My aunt dies this side. So all her relatives are in Rwanda. She was married here in Uganda. I have a crazy uncle in uh that place near the border with Katuna. The river there, Katuna? Yes. The guy, you know what he did? He crossed the river. Illegally. He appeared in Barra at the funeral. We saw him. How did you get there? How did you get here? He said, The rather shot me, he said. I made soldiers both sides drunk. On the Rwandan side, I gave them Chigaji. On the Ugandan side, I gave them Waraj. They got drunk and I crossed. This is a a villager. Uncle Emmanuel.

SPEAKER_04 48:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

And this is when the tension. He said it was at its height. They were you could not cross the border. He came and buried his sister. And now the issue was how do you return, Chief? I'm telling these stories of people to people that that you know made me work harder. We had to, of course, declare him to the Rwandan embassy and say, This is your citizen. Bought a ticket, we bought him a ticket and he left. But he said, I rather die. I had to bury my sister. So you saw this was a really inconveniencing misunderstanding for people to people. You know, and I think it would be very difficult to cross the border again. Because governments have power, they can do anything. But people, you know, I think this is the only relationship in Africa where people are really strongly interlinked. Truly. That's the most integrated. These are our societies are the most integrated. So I've tried to look at Africa border communities. I think this is the most strong. Uganda borders many regions, but I have not had a more emotional, politically charged relationship between Rwandans and Ugandans.

SPEAKER_04 49:56

No, we've been truly in each other's bedrooms. Absolutely. Absolutely. I would like to to now that you've mentioned Fande Mohosi Kenerugawa, help me understand. You say that he's a man of few words. The one a few times that we do hear from him are they're not a few words. And and it's not his words, but it's that because sometimes he will talk about, you know, whether it's football or local issues, but sometimes it will go into your sphere, which is diplomacy. What is the strategy there?

SPEAKER_02 50:43

I mean, the the the the strategy is is is is simple, you know. I mean, given his position, of course, it causes anxiety. But there has to be a strategy. No, I don't the strategy he owns it, yeah. He can be the one to talk about it, uh, but here in the realm of speculation, yeah. And uh and I think the strategy here is to signal. I'm signaling problems that have gone unanswered. So people who can who are responsible take them on, eh? Okay?

SPEAKER_04 51:16

So so it's why I fully understand. So he tweets something about the Turkish in Somalia. I'll just give you an example. Uh the latest example. And so is he signaling to the Ugandan Ministry of Foreign Affairs to follow up on this? Is he signaling to the Turkish state and its diplomacy to follow up on this? Who is he signaling to? Both.

SPEAKER_02 51:45

Both. Sometimes I think, you know, sometimes, and I've been in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Diplomacy for a long time. Sometimes we take things for granted. Sometimes we are sleepy. Sometimes we take things for granted, and we think issues are not issues. They will be handled through diplomatic channels. And they they take long. But for where he sits, these are can be issues of life and death.

SPEAKER_04 52:12

What's the disconnect between you two?

SPEAKER_02 52:14

No, there's no the disconnect is uh he sees what he's saying, and uh we might not see exactly what he's saying. We might have an idea. Uh but the urgence, lack of urgence. You know, him, he did, he deals with you know death, you know, life and death issues. For example, let's be abstract about our troops in Somalia and all that, it's life and death issues, decisions have to be made. So he's signaling that guys, you know, to our friends in Take, this is the issue. We have raised it over and over again, it's not been addressed, but also my system. Can you take this? Oh, and I can tell you after that, a lot of meetings have gone on.

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SPEAKER_04 54:19

But then the question then becomes is, and and this is maybe if the message is for the the players, so your your side and the Turkish side, for example, to start having these discussions, why couldn't it just be a Zoom call? You know, I'm trying to understand this. I'm trying to understand.

SPEAKER_02 54:43

Yeah, yeah. This is why he is different. That's why he is different. The power of social media. I mean, there are few leaders who have understood it. He has understood it, huh? You know, a zoom, again, official domain, a zoom maybe might not result into a solution.

SPEAKER_04 55:01

Really? Even if I took and and maybe again, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

I mean, Zoom's now taken over, but they everybody's talking about it.

SPEAKER_04 55:09

No, I'm just waiting. Here's my thing. Okay. So there's uh problem X in Somalia. Yeah. Okay. The the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs is there. The Ugandan Ministry of Foreign Affairs is there. I am the CDF. Is it CDS here or CDF? CDF. CDF.

unknown 55:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 55:31

Why can't I? Because what I'm trying to do is to get the two sides. The two sides to see what I'm seeing. Yeah. What is this true? Are there, isn't there, is is using social media the most in your experience or with your knowledge, is it the most effective way to kind of, I guess, pretty much knock, call it knocking heads?

SPEAKER_02 55:56

I'm sorry, I look at uh the case I will give might be similar but different to the case of President Trump. I mean, we are following the peace process in the Middle East through social media.

SPEAKER_04 56:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 56:09

And it's so effective. As a diplomat, I don't need to scratch my head what is the American president thinking. It's there. And also he communicates to Iran. He communicates to many prayers rather than men in suits and uh and cables and all that. It's proved to be effective. Is that the best? And also the public, the public in a way that we ignore the public. Yes. And I think it's democratizing decision making. The public is involved.

SPEAKER_04 56:43

I don't know if it's if if if you give the public, if you give the public that kind of information without the context, because that's another thing. There's a lot of context to diplomacy.

SPEAKER_06 56:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:55

I think it may ends up making the public anxious or confused.

SPEAKER_02 56:59

But diplomacy has changed, huh? In the era of social media. Diplomacy has changed in the sense that I used to write a report whenever I'm posted every one month.

SPEAKER_04 57:12

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_02 57:12

Like what is happening to Nigeria? If I'm ambassador of Uganda in Nigeria every month, I'm supposed to give political, socioeconomic. Now, by the time I write that, we had to change that. By the time I write that, it's history. It's ancient history.

SPEAKER_05 57:28

Everything is social media.

SPEAKER_02 57:29

Everything is on social media. So social media has turned upside down the way diplomacy is conducted. Okay? People are more aware of what is going on. You're dealing actually with a very informed citizenry.

SPEAKER_04 57:44

Or misinformed citizens. Because there's two things.

SPEAKER_02 57:48

Yeah, but they they have they actually have a basic knowledge of what information, not knowledge, of what is going on. You know? So if you're a leader, you have to if you you are an actor, you have to respond to that. I think what people like General Kene Rogaba does is look here. Let me put put it out there. Let's have a debate.

SPEAKER_04 58:12

I've seen his comments. I don't think there's a debate. It's more shouting and abusive language and no, it's colorful.

SPEAKER_02 58:21

I wouldn't call it.

SPEAKER_04 58:22

No, no, no. I I you see, that's why I I understand you're the diplomat here. I would say it's it's a lot of cursing and cursing him and cursing this. Yeah, but then the information is there.

SPEAKER_02 58:35

You know, he's put it out there. He's put it out there. Like the current case, the Turkish public, so the section of the public responded, the Ugandans responded, the Somalis responded. Now it's up to officials to manage this.

SPEAKER_04 58:50

I guess. Before, I think diplomacy was it was handled in the shadows.

SPEAKER_02 59:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:02

But now what it seems you're saying is diplomacy is now being handled in the public square.

SPEAKER_02 59:12

Public square. They they say, as they say, the gene is out of the bottle. So we have to manage that. And that's why programs like yours are important where we can have space and discuss deeper without sound bites, without insults, huh? Without this. But it's out there.

SPEAKER_04 59:33

There are no secrets anymore.

SPEAKER_02 59:34

There are no secrets anymore.

SPEAKER_04 59:39

It must be hard though to try to navigate this new reality. I mean, you've been uh ambassador, you've been a diplomat since what, 2007? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

No, no, actually since 1998.

SPEAKER_04 59:52

Yes, 1998. Sorry. 1998. That was when you were the special envoy for Burundi. And and you've you were there when, you know, it was about not verbals and and and cocktails and that sort of thing. Faxes. And faxes, and now all of a sudden, you know, it's you know, soon um I might end up seeing you on on TikTok, oh, yeah, doing TikTok dances so that you're pushing the you got a narrative and meeting. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

Exactly. But that doesn't negate traditional diplomacy, which is meeting a person. My colleagues, we meet. We have, you know, we have private meetings, doesn't negate that. That's still important, you know, to know each other, to gain trust. That still happens. That is the core of diplomacy. You know you cannot repress that.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:51

You cannot repress that.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:52

I'd like to ask when you think about Ugandan foreign policy, it's it's it it it manifests quite a lot in the region, especially in the use of the UPDF as you know, an arm of Ugandan diplomacy. Today, UPDF is deployed both in Somalia, but it's also deployed in the eastern DRC, especially in the Turi region where it is fighting and trying to pacify that region against the ADF. These are Ugandan terrorists. At least that's what they say. From your perspective, how successful are the operations on the ground today?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:49

Success can be measured by less frequence of terrorist attacks in Uganda. You remember the World Cup, was it of 2007?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:58

Actually, even before that, let's see. Even before that. No, even more recently, if I'm not mistaken, there was an attack on a tourist couple.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:06

Tourist couple in Manchester Forest. Yes, I think. Yeah, so in in uh in Queen Elizabeth National Park. So really ADF is does exist.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:17

How how many fighters do you think ADF has?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:21

I mean, now they have been kind of degraded, but they still possess, you know, because you see, they are not only Ugandans. It's become an ISIS kind of foreign fighters as well. Kind of the same thing that Ara DF is dealing with in northern Mozambique. And Al-Shabaab. And Al-Shabaab, so the jihad. Almost a transnational. Transnational. ADF was created by Khartoum. You know, we had problems with Bashir, Al-Bashir, and it was created to really as a front to make sure that we are occupied on the Western front.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:50

And so that they can be so that they can deal with SAR.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:53

So they are really still they are a threat. They have an Islamic ideology. Islamization.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:59

What do they actually want to do?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:00

They want to set a republic in Uganda that is based on Sharia Raw. Clearly.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:05

So that's the goal.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

And their leader is here in prison. You know, he was extradited from Tanzania, Jamil Mukuru. And he's very unapologetical, even when he appears in court. And a lot of cases about him, you know, you know, murdering students in Fort Potro and all that. So it's so it's a force. And I think our presence in Congo is kind of a regional model of what should happen in dealing with terrorist groups. When you cooperate as countries.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:36

So when you talk about they've been degraded, are they down to a thousand fighters probably?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:43

I can't put on a number, but they around, but they still can. If they were not kept busy in DRC, they used the in the they had they were controlling territories. They were even imposing taxes on Congolese. I'll give you an example, on Congolese cocoa. You know, Congolese, I didn't know they had cocoa, they were imposing taxes. When the UPDF went there and got disrogated, Congolese for the first time started earning income from cocoa. They were they were they were having square miles of agriculture and earning income and taxing. So now they are pinned down. So their sources of income are much degraded, but the ideology still exists. How do you fight?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:25

So right now there are what? Around how many soldiers, you media soldiers there? Do you did you know like the average number? A thousand?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:35

Average number maybe two thousand.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:37

Two thousand soldiers.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:45

I mean, it's Congo, you know, Congo is very vast. And it's they move a lot. And you know, it's it's it's a very challenging terrain. But the important thing is the fact that we are fighting them and keeping them busy with the consent of the Congolese government. So so that there is no government supporting them. And that is very, very important. It sends the signals. Even that's why the attacks here in Uganda have reduced. They don't have time, operational time to organize terrorist attacks on Uganda.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:20

You know, I want you to teach us the magic. This is there's a certain magic that you guys must share. Anyone who knows the history of Uganda, Rwanda, Zaire, and the Congo at the time, they know that Uganda and Rwanda in 1996 were in what we'd call cahoots to remove Mobutu.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:47

I was a journalist, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:49

So we were in cahoots. So we removed Mobutu. Then again, we go into cahoots to see if we can remove La Désire Kabila. That does not work. But then we win cahoots at all levels. There is obviously the tragedy in Kinsangani where we had a gross misunderstanding that led to unnecessary loss of life from both sides. There's no winner when brothers kill each other. How is it then we are trying to figure out, okay, the diplomacy with Joseph Kabila, the son of Joseph Desire. And then somehow Chishekedi comes on board. Rhonda is, you know, he comes to Kigali. You know, there's a thawing of the relationship. He comes actually for the Africa CO forum. Were you there? Yes, I was. So you see, you were even there. I was also there in the room. I was uh sitting in the back. So I'm thinking everything is going to go well. Less than a couple a year later, we are at each other's throats. M23 has appeared. A lot of the force has come through, as President Kagame says over and over again, did not come through the Uganda at the Rwandan border to attack Congolese territory for the very first time. But somehow, despite all that past, all those things where we should all be, if we would be the enemies of the Congolese, both of us should be, somehow you are allowed to hunt and kill your terrorists, the ADF, and then Rondans who have a very strong foe, the FDL for my in Tel Hamwe, on the other side, who've also in 2019 attacked Rwand territory, the same way that ADF has attacked Uganda territory. We are now not only is the Congolese government then not allowing us to attack them, they're actually now, as the UN has found, I'm sure you've seen the reports there, they're working alongside the FR, they say the Congolese army and working with the F Del Air. Obviously, to spite around at this point. What have you how have two people who've come from almost the same journey, how is it what what magic have you have you been able to perform where you guys are able to actually happily move the UPDF into Kong into Ituri and do what needs to be done. And Rwanda, despite its clear and obvious interest in quelling and removing the FDLR and the FDLR threat, we've not been able to get the Congolese state to see our side, you know, and the importance of removing these spoilers.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:34

What is the magic there? Excellent question. I don't know whether I will give you the answer, but but I mean remember also Tishkedi was a mediator between us and Rwanda. Him and uh Lorenzo, president of Angola.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:50

You know, you know, this really tells much about our region. He was a mediator.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:57

Telling us, please, Rwanda and Uganda, don't do this to the region, open the border. Do we want these two countries that are important for the region? He was trying. It was crossed both of us.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:09

And I remember this image where he drove from with your president and uh Lorenzo from Kigari, they found us at Katuna. Beautiful. That is what, 2019? 2019? 2020? Yes. It was during COVID, 2020. So this is really what is uh alliances and friendship in our region change. And uh but again, Uganda has been really very, very consistent. Even on the issue of M23, my president has been very consistent. These are Congolese to their demands are very clear, must be addressed. And he has told President Shikedi, you have to address their concerns. Okay, it's not that he has said, oh I you know, trying to say I don't support M23. He says no, I support their demands. They are reasonable.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:11

What demands are there?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:12

You know, for the people who want who they really they want citizenship. The issue of the issue of managing identity. They are called they are two Congolese. The president said, Look here, Mr. President, address their concerns as their president. Then if they continue fighting, that's another subject, but they that has not worked. Then there's our issue, our security concerns of ADF. And uh President uh you know, President Kabira, Joseph had consistently refused to allow us to act against. Actually, ADF grew under his regime. Consistently refused. Just refused. Just refused and and comparative.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:00

Which does not make sense because ADF, and that's also the thing with FDLR. Yes, ADF is uh is is a threat to Uganda as the FDLR is a threat to Uganda. Rwanda. But even Uganda, FDLA is also a threat to Uganda. To Uganda, yeah. And and ADF as well. Yeah. It's a threat to Rwanda in the larger context. But the they were even a larger threat to the Congolese people. Oh yeah, yeah. They are massacring Congolese day and night. The same with the Ftel.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:41

Why is it why couldn't they get it? They couldn't get it under President Shkedi got it on ADF.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:50

So he got it on ADF.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:52

Got it on ADF. And we have uh Shuja operation. We have a clear MOU that spells out terms of our engagement and it has worked. It has the you even the other day I saw some commanders where Camp was attacked of ADF. So that has been managed well, you know, with Kishasha.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:13

What's the what is the magic?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:14

I mean, it's clear that we you can't harbor our, you know, it was really done in a very diplomatic but direct way. You can't harbor these terrorists. That a danger, like you said, to your people and our people. And an understanding was reached that, you know, where the Congolese government allowed us. And and I think it's always, it's always, you know, work in progress. For Kabira, it didn't work. There was frustration over the years, but Shadit has worked. I can't say which magic we have used apart from persuasion and really stating common sense and also trying to assure them that we don't really mean bad. We are there to limited capacity to deal with ADF.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:58

So you talk about trust. Do you think that because uh what uh what I'm learning from this conversation is that fundamentally diplomacy and state relations is founded on trust. Yes. That somehow, somehow, Chisekedi simply cannot trust the Rwandan state. Because the demands must be quite clear. I mean, the same way you said here ADF is doing this, this, and this. Can we allow us to do this, work in this operating uh this theater of operation?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:34

But but FDR and ADF are not only problems of Rwanda, Uganda, and the RSE. They are regional problems. As you are aware, we had the Nairobi process and the Rwanda process. So there are regional commitments to deal with them. Okay? And I think we can't reduce them to Birato. There is, we have had numerous meetings that are regional. That never go anywhere. Yeah. But we, we are, but we have to implement them. You know, because when you reduce them by rato, you know, they become precarious, but you miss a big point that they are regional threats. And I think that's where we should focus, that these are regional threats. Rwanda and DRC need to be friends, good. But if they are not, these threats have to be dealt with through regional mechanisms that have been.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:30

The challenge is that does everyone see them as threats, right? The same way that you are talking about ADF and how it was formed, and you are talking about how it was the Sudanese government of Omar al-Bashir at the time that brought this to bear. When you talk about the region, does the region fully understand as all these countries, do they actually understand these this this extremism this extremism can sh is a cancer to all of us? Or is it still that thing of, you know, these are just the Rwandan problem that, you know, they don't, if I'm a Ugandan, it doesn't really affect me. If I'm a Burundi, eh, they only want to remove Kagame. You talk about, you know, that regionalism. But regionalism, as you said, it's it it it there also has to be interests. And they have Rwanda's pain must become Uganda's pain as well. And and but it seems from you know, uh the the taste of the pudding is in the eating. But but I think we've failed as a region to actually see it as a regional issue.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:58

Like you said, I mean, we have to see feel each other's pain. Otherwise, there would not be peace as a region. I mean, look here, like the issue of M23. You remember there was an East African force that was deployed. It was kicked out. That was about to solve the problem.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:14

Without Goma having to be taken over without all of this.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:18

So now we are in a situation whereby again we have to revisit. Let me tell you, this is our region. We can have skepticism about our regional processes and mechanisms, but it's what we have all got. They have got to work. Otherwise, you get the Washington process, you get the Doha process, complicates matters. You can be winning tactical diplomatic initiatives, but at the end of the day, these issues will be solved by. I am a believer in regional mechanisms. Then those see where DRC itself has come from the Lusaka process, you know, to San City, to elections in DRC, the Burundi regional process. You know, so so I think we we have to continue investing in them because that's what we have all got. We will come back to the regional mechanisms at the end of the day. And I think the issue of FDRR and ADF will be better dealt by regional states.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:20

But then it there has to be the spoilers, as you've said, we talked about when we started this. We're talking about Uganda and Rwanda diplomatic impasse and how there were spoilers who and then they it only worked because someone took an extremely brave stand. Someone who was trusted by both sides. Now I'm just wondering, okay, who would that be? Who takes that initiative?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:50

Who's willing to pay that price? I think in the context of the regional issues like FDRR and ADF, I think they will come. I mean, I think we this issue is not going away. The issues of FDR and ADF are not going away until they are solved. I think DF, you can argue that there is willingness to cooperate by the two countries, but the issues, the issue of FDR is a regional problem.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:20

We have all agreed. And not only is it a regional problem, I think the ideology that that is at the foundation of the FDLI. It is fundamentally an ideology that says people like you must not not just people like would be called the Tutsis of Rwanda, it's also people like they it's not, it's uh it it comes within the framing of the Hima Tutsi, you know, these are strangers, that nativism, that these uh should not be anywhere near these are people from uh Ethiopia, and you know, it's so so but somehow I think we haven't really understood just when they talk about that hate speech, when they talk about that ideology of hate, language of hate. It's it's the same way that you're you're you're struggling with the ADF. It's it's it's not because they are one or two fighters, it's the ideology of uh Islamic fundamentalism.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:29

Absolutely. Absolutely. And we have to eradicate these ideologies quickly. Or the more the time goes, the more they get numerized. Yes. The more revisionism takes root. The more skeptics start saying, but this problem, what what FDR There are five of them.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:51

There are five of them. Because that's what they're also by the way, eventually that's what's going to happen with ADF problems. Absolutely. Is that they'll say, but ADF, there are like five ADF people. Uganda now, actually, because that's what that's the conversation is now. Uganda is not in Congo because of ADF.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:09

It's there to steal and do this because that's then what happens. It you're you move the you move the goalposts. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:18

Oh yeah, the way we were able even to do it was uh I we insisted that we needed to really even inform the Security Council, the UN Security Council. Share with them the MOU. Share with them the troops, the number of troops, the kind of weapons we have there, so that the international community that can be able to say, look here. Not say, you know, so that everybody is on board on what clearly we're trying to eradicate an ideology. So that people don't start, oh, why this, you know, time has gone on. No, ideologies, and we need a regional approach. You know, but the Congolese citizens themselves see this because they are more victims than me and you. Me and you. They are the direct victims of FDR and ADF. You know, I'm sure there is a conversation in Eastern DLC about this. You know, because they are the victims, direct victims. And we need to, we're not by idea, we shouldn't tie about regional approach. It's what we've got.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:21

I don't know. I just, again, I really had a lot of hope with the East African stand-by force. I had a lot of hope because I thought, okay, finally, as a region, uh, you know, with whether it's Uganda, whether it's it's Burundi, there's going to be a way for Africans to figure out how to deal with this.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:47

But but we need to really continue. Like uh the another thing we have not covered, the bilateral relationship between Burundi and Rwanda has to improve. Actually, that's true. The border has to open.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:58

You know, you've worked in with with with the Burundians. Maybe that's let me uh fully understand that. You know, all those decades ago, there was the Arusha you know peace process that was led by Malimu Julius Mignere to to end the Burundian Civil War. I I I I look at where Burundi is today and and the and the discussions and contradictions there, and I and I wonder if what we're seeing, whether in the DRC, but even look when it comes to Burundi and the DRC, but also Burundi and Rwanda is a fundamental failure in the Arusha process.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:48

No, no, I think it's not. The Burundi peace process was really to address the Burundi issues that was really a protracted civil war. And uh Mariminar said it was uh a political problem with ethnic connotations.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:04

But then what what we then did was create a an ethnic governance model.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:13

No, no, no, look here. Burund was very, very, very complicated. You know, very, very complicated. And we had different mediators. And Uganda was the chair. And I and I was very, very involved. And I think what it did was to really deal delicately with, you know, an ethnic, deeply divided society. To say, look here, the Arusha agreement was okay, democracy for the majority, security for the minority. And it was detailed that no single ethnic group will be dominant, the political sphere in the security sphere. That was the foundational, you know, kind of stage. Of course it will have it had challenges when it started being implemented, you know, 2025, 2020, we had elections that brought President Guruziza in power. 2020, you had this kind of again, you know, changing a constitution, co-attempt the civil, kind of another civil war. And uh, and I think Brundi became really stable and a player in the region. And uh, and uh, and uh not everything is like it should have been, but at least you have a basis of a working state that can be engaged in.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:40

I don't know if if you could say that, because a working state that is premised on ethnicity, I don't know if it works as a modern state.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:52

And and yeah, I mean, I know where you are going to, but I have asked the leaders. I have asked the leaders because I know them. And they have denied, yeah. They have said, look here, you know, it's a democracy, you know, all ethnic groups are working together, we are not exterminating Tutsies, all that. But I think it is because of threats in the region that are not, and that regional approach again has to be taken. I think we need an honest conversation. There's a lot of suspicion. Yeah, there is a lot of suspicion that need that is unnecessary. I mean, the relationship between Rwanda and Burundi had improved significantly. I mean, your president visited Burundi, the first lady visited Burundi. It had until I think the issue of the coup of 2015, people running to Rwanda, which can be addressed, which was being addressed, I'm told. I'm really told by my colleagues that it was almost to be agreed upon on how to deal with you know those couprotters that run into Rwanda. So it's it's a problem that is solvable with, I think we need a regional approach. You know, we you know, and I think these are not strangers to each other. You know, I think I I believe Burundan Rwanda is really easy to solve, huh?

SPEAKER_04 1:27:18

You think so?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:19

Because on one side, I think, and and and this is my view, is that on one side you cannot, and I hate to say this, you cannot have a certain kind of supremacist thinking. Right? Because again, the the the rebels that were fighting, say, the the Tutsi government of of of the boyoyas and them, yeah, they came from a certain ideology. And that is the ideology that we always talk about, which is the the nativism versus the stranger, the invader versus the person, the son of the soil. Now, if that is your ideological grounding, and saying that, you know, this country really belongs to these people, then obviously the way you see the world is through that framing.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:17

But CNDDFDD, the current ruling party, was really not that extreme. It was there was Paripehutu, FNR, of Agaton Ruasa. Those are the people that framed the world the way you are putting it. And they were really marginalized in the peace process because of their ideology. CNDD FDD were young people that came out of the crisis in 1993. They are not from the 60s. 1993, when President Dada is a is a suspicion the mismanagement of that transition. You know, the Kruunzizas, the Daiishime, they ran to the bush. And uh of course they were angry young men.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:59

And they have also been victims of the 1973 genocide. 72 genocide. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:06

So they they had bit, but when they got involved in the peace process, people like President Musevin told them, look here, you are not even winning the war. We have to compromise. And the Arusha Agreement really, I can tell you the broomed the two C army and the rebels really joined and worked together. And became friends. I mean, I visited them in Somalia. They were dying together. And the formula worked. But when there are regional tensions, the problem is when there are regional tensions, these kind of old tensions emerge. Okay? And that's why we need a region. The East African community is a good experience to diffuse all this. Where you can, these ideologies cannot have fine the press, huh? Because you're not only a citizen of Burundi, of Rwanda, of Uganda, you're a regional citizen. The elite can move, huh? In the region. You know, it's a regional citizenship kind of, huh? No, I mean, I don't, with the East African, if the experiment succeeds and it's succeeding, huh?

SPEAKER_04 1:30:12

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:13

It is, I mean, I can go to Rwanda at least for six months. I don't need a work permit. I can exile myself officially. And people move. I think we need to stop this thing of crossing borders of uh the borders have to so that people can move. These ideologies will dissolve. You know, because if what is I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:30:39

But you know, power is power, you know, and and sometimes, you know, as you said, when the elites do things that work for them.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:48

Yeah, but uh but but it's not sustainable. They can work for you. I mean, you need shock absorbers, and the regional is a good shock absorber. You know, when people can move, uh when people don't feel threatened because they are a minority in the country. And and you can still practice democracy, but with security at the same time. So I think Burundi, the really the broad peace process, which I worked on for many years, was an example of managing an ethnically divided society, ending a civil war. It's not easy to implement. And I remember us having arguments with South Africans. They they they were part of the mediation, they looked at it as a white-black thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:33

So these ones against this one.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:35

And we said no. These speak the same language, you know, predominantly Catholic. And uh and it worked, you know, and Maribuner also, you know, adjusted the same thing. And I think, you know, long-term stability in Burundi, the principles of the Rush Agreement that resulted in their constitution, really are the foundation. And we need really, and of course you are right, you cannot have a regional project that is African community if individual states are not relating well. The individual states have, otherwise we will be living in Utopia. The individual states, Uganda, Rwanda have to have a good relationship, Tanzania, Kenya, Burundi, Rwanda, DRC now, and Somalia. We have to have states have to relate very well. Leaders have to relate very well. You know, I think we need to invest, I think we've we need to invest in interstate relations.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:35

You say you we need to. The East African treaty, I think, was in 1990 something. Yeah. You're talking about that's 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:48

When you say that we need to invest- But it was amended when these countries came in.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:52

I I hear you, but when you say we need to invest in interstate relations, why haven't you been investing?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:59

I think I think there was a debate whether it should expand beyond the traditional East African, which was originally Kenya, Uganda, and Tanzania, whether it was a mistake to bring in Rwanda, Burundi, South Sudan, South Sudan, but it was not. I think now this diffuses the tensions, but we need to have a conversation. I think the chairs of East African community need to make sure that they deal with interstate tensions. Because if there is tension between, for example, Rwanda and Burundi, that is a loss to the community. Which means citizens between the two countries cannot interact. Trade cannot take place.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:38

Let's let's let's move to your day job. Yes. Your day job is not to be sitting here with min campallets, to be uh in New York and drinking tea with very powerful ambassadors. You know, the United Nations, everything is framed as rules and cooperation and multilateralism. But in reality, how much of the system is actually about raw power? Especially when we see countries, you know, like the United States or other members of the Security Council like is it take us through the actual reality of the UN.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:36

The actual reality of the UN, I mean you're talking about the international rules-based order. But you you need rules-based. You need to ask whose rules. So whose rules? These rules that we are operating under were set and designed by the winners of the 1945, the second world war. So this begs the question. You know, is the world still the same? I would say no. Exactly. So, I mean, the world has completely shifted. Okay, these without sounding controversial, these there are countries that have benefited from this international rules-based order. No doubt about it. But it's not sustainable. Now the world is more, is less uh euro and Atlantic world is more diverse. So that begs the question is how then do we address contemporary challenges? I mean, look at what we are facing now. Look at the UN Security Council. The UN Security Council has a design problem. It was designed not to deal with crisis where big powers have an interest. It was designed to deal with our problems.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:10

So it was designed as a way for big powers to come and say, this is do this.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:18

So when you go back in the end of the Cold War, 1990, it's called the golden era of multilateralism. When interstate wars ended and there were civil wars. That's when peacekeeping, which is not in the UN Charter, peacekeeping is not written anywhere in the UN Charter, became a big business of the UN Security Council. There is a civil war in Congo. We can deploy peacekeepers because we can tell them what to do. But when you have the war in Ukraine, where one of the big powers is involved, Security Council becomes dysfunctional.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:57

Because all they do, all the Russians need to do is evidence everything. Or even the threat of a veto.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:02

Even the threat of a veto. So so so so we are in a multipolar world, also major powers, middle powers have emerged, you know. Look at the downlined movement which Uganda chairs, you know, we have even nuclear powers there. You know, we have India, Pakistan, we have all this. So maritolarity, you know, doesn't mean that there shouldn't be more militarism. Okay? So multipolateralism needs multipolarity to work because they are diverse voices. So where does Africa stand in all this? I sit at the UN, the UN is like a jungle. You know, you I wake up, I'm dealing with issues to deal with our region, with issues to deal with development and aid, with issues to deal with technology. You have to pick and choose as a developing country.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:59

So walk us through that. So let us say, because I've never, one day I'd want to maybe put a camera on your on your lapel to see, okay, what does a day look like for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:38:12

I mean, that's the, and this is it can be Rwanda, it can be Burundi, it can be DRC. We have small embassies at the UN. I'll give you the number. Uganda has 10 diplomats at the UN. And we're considered to be the largest embassy Uganda has abroad. But you have the Americans with 250, the Chinese with the same number. At the UN. At the UN, dealing with the same issues we are dealing with. So you have to now, how do we answer this? And I have been there at a transition on how to answer this. I've been privileged as an African diplomat who has been there a decade and a half almost. So the way we have answered this, we have said, look here, everything can't be a priority for Africa. And Uganda does not matter the UN. Fundamentally. Fundamentally. They are nothing like Ugandan interests at the UN. A few things.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:06

Unless you're not interesting in the UN.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:11

Uganda's interests will be, let's say, peacekeeping, you know, reimbursing our troops in Somalia, but that is a small part. But even that, I cannot do it without the three Africans on the Security Council that actually have power. Oh, we did in the African group. I'll give you an example. Rwanda chairs our candidature as a committee. You know, because we cannot, as Uganda, I cannot go and campaign for a Ugandan who wants to be on an ex-committee. I have to go through the African group and say, okay, here is our candidature as Uganda. Do Africans support this candidature? If they say no, I cannot go on. So we work as Africa. So we have answered this. We have the largest number of states at the UN, comparatively speaking, 53. There is no regional bloc that's bigger than Africa. So we are trying to leverage our numbers at the UN to make decisions. And when we when we are united, we win. When? When? And we have been united under many circumstances. I will give two events that have of recent. One, we have the tax convention. The UN tax convention that is being negotiated. All the Western countries, and some of our friends in Latin America and Asia said no, because we came up with that as Africa because of tax misbehavior by multinationals. So we wanted an international model taxation, which is controversial. Most Western countries, we pushed it at the UN and won the vote.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:55

Number two. Number two, recently we had a vote on slavery as an international crime.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:02

I saw the people who did not vote for it. You saw?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:06

It was it was what? Israel? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:08

The US.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:09

The US? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:11

And most Europeans abstained.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:14

Most of them are oral abstained. And let me tell you, my you saw IT. What does that tell you? That series you, especially the Europeans. They think their problems are the world problems. But the world problems are not their problems.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:31

But they are the ones who are the slave masters.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:34

Yeah. But you see, for example, I'll give you an example. When it's Ukraine, they put us under pressure to vote with them.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:42

They talk to you and say, ah, Africa group.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:44

But you are our friends. You see, the Russia, this, this, you know, you're our neighbors, and you should vote against. We say, okay, we, okay, we understand, but we will abstain. Because we don't want to get involved. And now, and I told them now, when we have an issue of where we have interest, like the slavery resolution, which was really emotional. It's not the Caribbean issue, it's an African issue. Then we have the tax conversion.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:15

It's a pretty much a black issue.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:17

Then I tell them, you see, when we have our issue, you don't vote for us. So you so European problems are world problems. But our problems are not your problems. So you see, this is now we are asserting ourselves at the UL. And when Africa speaks with one voice, it's listened to.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:39

Let's talk about the times when you guys, when you fail. Because you've also said when we come together, we're able to. So that immediately tells me there have been instances.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:50

Yeah, there have been instances where we failed miserably. Even our representatives on the Security Council, I'll give you an issue of Libya. The three representatives of Africa on the Security Council. Now it's history, I can mention them. Nigeria, South Africa, and Gabon. Yes. Voted for the attack on Libya.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:09

Had the Africa group said no? The African groups have said no. So you had told, you had sat down as a group. Yes. 50-something countries. Even the EU. Yes. Had all agreed.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:22

Yeah. And then what happened? Does this give peace a chance? I think Gaddafi was willing to negotiate his exit. Then the West put countries under pressure. Then the Security Council, because remember, President Obama and others wanted the legal cover of attacking Libya, NATO. And they went to the Security Council. If the Security Council vote had failed, they wouldn't have done. But it was done with Africans' complicity.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:53

Why? So all of them voted for it. For it. So all the three are all the three. But guess what?

SPEAKER_02 1:44:00

And that stocks. So South Africa. South Africa, Nigeria, and Gabon. Gabon. But but look here who was on the Security Council. Listen, Nigeria and South Africa. If the Security Council was to be formed. Reformed, they are the potential candidates for Africa.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:19

Yet they're the ones who started.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:21

And guess who else was on the Security Council outside Africa that voted principle? On principle. You had India. It voted to? Refused to vote for it. You had Brazil. Said no. You had German.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:36

So it was our own. I mean, that's that's that's what we talk about with the slavery bill, which is very often it would be other Africans putting the slaves together before they were moved into White Hands.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:51

So so the point I'm making the now we have the world that is increasingly less European.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:02

But then no, no, I'm I'm I'm still going to think about I I need to I need to make sense of what you've just told me. Why would an ANC-led government of South Africa because you you know when you think about the history of the late Muammar Gaddafi and the ANC and the friendships that were between Muamad Gaddafi and Nelson Mandela, even at a personal level, and then even the state to state or movement, revolutionary movement to revolutionary movement. That is shocking. It's a scandal. Actually, you know what? It's not even shocking, it's a scandal.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:48

It's a scandal, and uh, and South Africans are still trying to explain it as we speak.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:53

So what do they what what is what was their logic?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:56

President Zuma, the president of South Africa at that time was Jacob Zuma. Yes. And my friend was the ambassador of South Africa at the UN, Baso Sango, who was the ambassador. The explanation is that President Obama, before the vote at the UN, South Africa was going to vote against. He called President Zuma and said, Mr. President, this resolution does not intend for regime change.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:22

Are Africans stupid? Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:25

No, no, no, but on a serious note.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:29

Are we stupid? Are we naive? Are we do we see the world for what it is?

SPEAKER_02 1:46:37

Yeah, so the the exactly. So so the and the wording of the resolution, there is a sentence, an infamous sentence that was in the Iraq resolution that was vetoed by uh vetoed by China and Russia recently. All necessary means. One sentence, notorious sentence in the UN. When they want to do regime change, they put there all necessary means if they want to do military action. It was there.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:03

And we read it. We read it.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:06

Okay. So there was a lot of pressure and influence, and they took it. Remember, there were African, five African heads of state.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:14

That were yes, including.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:15

That were about, including ours. Yes. That were about to take off to go to Libya. NETO told them the airspace is closed. Yes. So Africa had an agency, had uh had a strategy of solving that conflict. But other are your Africa also. We had we always had our traitors. So so so so so the Libyan case study is is actually opened our eyes at the UN. And you know, it led to some kind of reforms. Now we okay, countries are elected on Security Council as if Rwanda is there or Uganda, you're elected as Rwanda. You are not elected to represent Africa. But we kind of moderated that because we endorse. Africa endorses, we are the few continents that endorses countries on retention. So we created what we call the A3. The three African representative on the Security Council. They are supposed to report to the African group and to the AU in Addis Ababa and say, these are the issues that concern Africa on the Security Council. They are supposed to vote as a block. Supposed. Yeah, you know, and if they vote, you know, they they are 15, in order to win, you have to get nine. So if three vote against, there is a chance always that the resolution does not go through. It's almost like a veto. So we don't, we have been using it on some issues, but it's good progress that we realize that we need to speak as co, even on the Security Council, where we have three representatives, even in its current form, we can actually make impact.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:51

Let me ask, but that that that story that you told me is scandalous. Because now what we see is, you know, they always say that chickens come home to roost. Nigeria now is in a major fight for its existence as a state because of the proliferation of arms and and groups. And you know, Boko Haram is now really becoming a major threat, not just actually Nigeria now, it's the the entire Sahel region.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:30

We mismanaged uh the world mismanaged Libya. And I think the world is also mismanaging the RC, but yeah, but uh, and you see, what I really always say is that we should not get african problems. What do you mean? This issue of African solutions, African problems is is conceptually wrong. African problems are world problems. We do peacekeeping. I mean, I saw Rwandan police in Jamaica. I see there are African troops all over the world maintaining peace and security. So the issues of African problems are world problems. Africa is not a ghetto. It's part of the world. You see, when we started this African solutions for African problems, then the usual suspects in the world started saying, oh, that Africans solve their problems. No. Problems of Congo we're talking about of FDR and ADF are global problems. They're on the agenda of the Congo is on the agenda of the Security Council.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:37

Well, that's the thing with Congo. Yes. The way it's on the agenda.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:42

It's been on the agenda since the 60s. But they shouldn't say, oh, this is for the region to handle. Okay. Only. It's an inter, you know, African problems should be if they threaten international peace and security, they should be handled globally. We are global citizens.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:00

I guess I hear what you're saying, and I respect your opinion on that. I guess that works when there are no major global spoilers as well. Is that there's so many spoilers at every level of you're fighting this and then there's this. That if we do allow, I mean we're we're seeing and I can say it to you, maybe you cannot say it, but when I see how it's being treated by the in the Washington Accords, it's there's no depth to it. There is it's ah we want to, we want it, the critical minerals. Or it's seen within the fight of with the Chinese, and and then it becomes about uh minerals, it's not about people. They don't really see African lives the way maybe we see African lives. We they they see us as within the prism of the great game.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:56

Yeah, yeah, you're right. The word is this is all about narratives about Africa. You know? It's all about narratives by rich people and opinionated people. And we have to push against these narratives that look here. Africa has an agency in solving its problems. You know, but there are issues of peace and security. You know, I mean, look at Congo, you know, it was a normal state in the 60s until Rumumba was assassinated, and we know now who was assassinated.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:29

But we know who were assassinated. So he was not he was assassinated by the spoilers, the Africans, the French, the Belgians.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:36

I would say, okay, we know who is the spoiler. We know they are opinionated and rich, and they are shaping narratives. Now, the issues of Africa is really as serious as issues. It's the issues of integration. We should define the narrative. You know, we are talking about African trade, infrared FCTA, which we have signed. But now the narrative is being changed to other things, like critical minerals, like all this. I think me, if it was only changing narratives, I would put it away. But it's also very dangerous that we allow this to stand. And and I think we have the African Union. And uh, and uh I saw President Ruto recently saying.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:27

You were saying that it was not fit for purpose.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:29

Uh I think we need to make it fit for purpose. And we own the African Union as African states. I mean, we need, if we speak 54, I mean, there are all these forums where Africa is being invited. And I worked for the African Union, you know, Africa-China, Africa US, Africa, Turkey, Africa, Korea. What do we go there to do? Or our heads of states, we should be able to say, before we go to any gathering, these are our takeaways.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:59

That one has that that was a message, I think, when President Kagana.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:02

Remember, was a reform was it was the chair.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:04

He was he was saying that this this is how we should do this. Everyone, you know, clapped their hands.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:10

But but I think there is uh there is still the spirit is there. When you see President Ruto speaking like that, I think it's because this is what we have got. This is what we've got, it's a continental body we have got. We we we have to continue, it's a war of narratives. And I and like I said, we are living in a maritima world and a world where narratives actually matter, and we have to confront them as Africa. You know, we have now an opportunity, Africa France, I think, in Nairobi in May, to just start taking setting a tone that these are interests of Africa, and where and it has worked. It has worked. Look on climate change. I I chair a subsidiary body. Whereby as Africa, we speak as one, as the African group negotiating group, and we have said, look here, we know who pollutes the world. Africa accounts less than 4% of carbon emissions. The rest should pay. And you know, even on development, financing has become a problem. And they are new when people want to duck their responsibilities, you have heard about domestic mobile resource mobilization. They are telling you we cannot pay our obligations, which are by the way, treaty bound, huh? Like under the UNFCCC. You know, they are obliged to pay. But they come and say, oh no, no, you countries, we are promoting domestic resource mobilization, which means you pay your bills, which we are supposed to pay. And we are kind of entertaining our bureaucrats into integrate these slogans of domestic resource mobilization. And we give them an escape route. And that's why meritratism becomes very true. We can go there and actually call them names. For the if there is no, for this, if there is no other impact, remind them of their obligations. So that you know, they don't go away with it because that's important. You know, you committed yourself to do a B C D in a treaty, you must do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:24

I don't know. You because of the nature of your job, you you you have to you have to continue fighting the good fights. Absolutely. Uh you need to almost be an optimist. Absolutely. Personally, again, I'm much more of a bit more cynical when it comes to especially those that we call powerful, those we call, you know, the the big dogs, the big fish. And that's I guess that's why I'm not in the in the UN. Let me ask you the last question, and uh Ambassador, thank you so much for your time. But this one I'm now going to make it quite a local. Okay. You've spent decades now representing Uganda at the very highest political office levels. You over the last couple of days, you've been at a leadership, NRM leadership retreat at Chang Kwanzi.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:25

For those who don't know Chang Kwanzi, it's a beautiful area, part of the country, the cultural corridor.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:32

Uh-huh. And then that's a place where NRM cudders go and do you know military drills and ideological training, and the president as the chairman of the NRM talks to his cudders, and you are there. Now, do you ever see yourself stepping into domestic politics? Do you do you you've worked so long, you've worked so hard at that level. Do you if you were to get the honor of serving as minister of foreign affairs, would you say, I I enjoy my diplomatic life? I don't want to really start working that that that hard in the executive. Do you see yourself becoming Minister of Foreign Affairs of Uganda?

SPEAKER_02 1:59:34

No, no. When I joined diplomacy, was to really was for a modest reason. What was the modest reason? To try and solve Ugandan Rwandan problems. And it has metaphasized into representing Uganda at the UN. And who knows, it's up to the appointing authority. You know, all these appointments uh the president decides. We'll take it when it comes. But I'm really enjoying myself at the UN. But if it comes. I don't know whether it will come. If it comes, I will listen to the appointing authority. I will listen to him carefully what he wants me to do. And I have a privilege of really engaging him and uh and see what it is. But I'm really enjoying myself at the moment in uh New York. Really representing Africa is an exciting job. You know, it's you really do things that are measurable. You know, representing your country is always great, but representing Africa and uh the world as well. I mean, I'm bringing things like climate change at the global level.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:36

But you can still do that as uh as minister.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:39

Uh if if yeah, I I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what the future. If I could tell the future, I would uh I would be happy, but uh I'm really happy where I am now.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:50

Yeah, maybe we despite the the the you know the that's the beauty of the place we are sitting here, beautiful weather. Absolutely. I'm sure you would you would you'd say bye to the winters of New York.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:03

Yeah, but winters, but also it's a beautiful city. It's a global city. It's a really truly global city. You can find African food there, you can find Latino food, you can meet all people, and the world sends their best at the UN. You know, I I work with the best.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:20

Have you the you talk about the the New York? New York is now interesting. It has a one hour fair as mayor now. Oh yes. Yeah, Mamdanny. The local, the local lad. The local lad, the local rapper has come good. Yeah. Have you had a chance to meet him?

SPEAKER_02 2:01:37

I'm supposed to meet him. We're supposed to have lunch in May, sometime in May. I look forward. I look forward to that. I mean, it's good to have his visited the UN. He clearly, you know, talks as a maritalist. He's very vocal on global issues, climate change, peace and security. So it is good to have a mayor of New York interested in the work of the UN, apart from giving us tickets, parking tickets, but also getting interested.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:03

But also, maybe if you if he was to visit you or vice versa, you can get to he you might be surprised, and he he serves you nice steamed at all.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:18

And now we have an African restaurant in Newark, which is in New Jersey, but it's still a short distance from New York, Swahili Village. So, where we all go to eat nyamachoma, to eat chapati. So maybe we'll go there.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:33

Why not? Why not? Ambassador, thank you so much for your time. It's been an absolute honor. You're my would you be the very first ambassador I've interviewed? I I think so. I wish I was the I actually are. You actually are good. And here's the problem. Now I've said it quite high.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:52

Yeah, I can't go backwards. Yeah, and every month make sure you have an ambassador. Well, actually, the diplomatic coin Kigari, you know, the fellows, the the Africans, you know, there who can talk to you.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:05

Well, it's it's it's also your you're you're not just a normal ambassador, you've you've really played uh a quite a pivotal role in peace and security of our region. Not everyone has been able to do that. And so I understand just how much of an honor this has been. Absolutely. It's President Kukwete who referred to me as the permanent fixture.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:25

Everybody goes at Dunia is the permanent fixture.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:30

Yeah. No, uh, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. And uh thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:35

And keep keep this up. We need this. We need this as Africans, we need this podcast to grow and grow and grow.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:43

From your word, from your mouth to God's ears.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:46

Yes, and uh where you can be like Pius Morgan, when there is an issue, you go live and we you interview us so that we have an alternative view on world politics. That's super important. We like that. We like that. I mean, this what is Maruf, this boy, Mario? Mario Nawaz. Nawaz, I refused him to interview me because when he sent me questions about Sudan, I said no. He was not we want our own broadcaster.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:16

No, I I hear you. It's it's a challenge because I and and we I think we spoke about this at the beginning off camera. African politicians very often want to talk to people with huge platforms. Yeah. But then you create you become a huge platform by talking to powerful people. So it's almost the egg and the chicken and egg. What comes first? Do you create the platform or do you get to talk to people? Exactly. And I know my platform is quite small, and and so I understand and I do not take for granted the fact that you're sitting here with me. Thank you so much, Ambassador.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:56

Thank you. Thank you very much, eh? And all the best. Amen. Amen. Thank you so much. Greet my relatives in Kigari. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:03

I'm sure you can do that yourself. Ambassador, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:07

Thank you very much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:09

And that's a wrap for today's conversation. Thanks for staying with us till the very end. It really means a lot. I'd love to know what was the one moment that really stood out to you? Drop it in the comments so that we can keep the discussion going. If you want to connect with us beyond YouTube or streaming platforms, you can find us on the social media platform of your choice. And if this has support something for you, share it with a friend who'd love it too. Until next time, have a great week.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:42

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