Ethnicity, Media & the Search for an East African Identity | Marcus Kwikiriza

What does it actually mean to be East African?

In this episode of The Long Form Podcast, Marcus Kwikiriza reflects on living and working across Uganda, Kenya, and Rwanda, and why the dream of an integrated East Africa remains more complicated than many people assume.

Drawing on his experience during Kenya's 2007–08 post-election violence, Marcus discusses ethnicity, identity, labour mobility, xenophobia, the decline of mass media, and whether a genuine East African citizen is emerging. We also explore the future of radio, political consciousness, and the impact of the Basketball Africa League on local sports systems.

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Produced by LF Media 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:43

This conversation is brought to you by Akagera Medicines, a biotech company that is majority owned by the Ronan people. Akagera Medicines is not only committed to expanding access to healthcare, but also supporting conversations that inform, educate, and empower. Learn more about Akagera Medicines by scanning the QR code on your screen or by visiting their website at Akagera Medicines.com. East Africa has been described as a region moving towards integration, open borders, shared markets, a common future. But the reality is much more complicated. At the same time, another shift is happening. The mass media that once shaped how societies understood themselves is starting to fragment. What comes next? My guest today on the Longform Podcast is Marcus Kuichiriza. Marcus, a radio veteran, media strategist, and president of the Ugandan Basketball Federation, has worked across Uganda, Kenya, and Rwanda and has spent decades inside the systems that shape how people think, move, and connect across this region. So this conversation is about more than media. It's about identity, movement, and power and whether the idea of an East African citizen is real. Marcus. Yes, sir. Welcome to the Longform Podcast. Thanks for having me, Sunny. We were talking just before we started. How do you say welcome in Luganda?

SPEAKER_05 2:10

Mkwai Niriza. Is that the word? That's too goddamn long. Isn't that the one? That's too long. But I ideally you is like, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:19

Yeah, yeah. But you're you're from Uramunyangole. Yes. So what how do they say welcome?

SPEAKER_05 2:28

Welcome me to Longform Podcast.

SPEAKER_04 2:30

Yes. Twa Kwa Chida on the Long Form Podcast. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's uh it's an honor to sit down with you. Thank you. You're one of the people that I'd call a big brother. While I was still struggling in in school, you were doing the work that I'm trying to do right now. You're you're trying to, you know, you were talking to people, you were telling a story, you were entertaining, and you were informing. It wasn't a podcast, it was on radio. Yeah. And so today's conversation, I really want to speak about what it means to be an East African, uh what it means to speak to East Africans, and what it means to be a communicator in today's world. You've lived and worked across the vast majority of East African states. So you've worked obviously in Uganda, you came to Rwanda, you did uh a couple of years, you also did major work in Kenya. Yeah. So be honest, is there such a thing as an East African identity? Or do people still fundamentally see themselves as Ugandan, Kenyan, and Rwanda?

SPEAKER_05 3:43

So to answer your question immediately, the answer is people see themselves as individuals from their countries. And by people, I say the majority of the people, minus the ones like myself and you who have actually lived and worked in those countries. So myself and you who have had the privilege of working and living in those countries might have a semblance of what it is to be a true East African. But we are under 1%. The rest of the Ugandans, Rwandans, and Kenyans see themselves as Ugandans, Rwandans, and Kenyans. The nature of the East African comraudery has hasn't yet reached down. Here, we're good. Yeah. To the masses, or so to speak, the your everyday guy, I don't think they can consider themselves I'm an East African. They'll say, no, I mean I'm a Ugandan. That guy's a Kenyan. You guys are strangers. You guys are. Well, I mean, we are supposed to be working together, but at the end of the day, you're not a Ugandan.

SPEAKER_04 4:50

At the end of the day, you're not a Kenyan, you know the day, no, no, you're not Ugandan. What's your experience been? Because, like you've said, you've traveled, you've worked, you've made friends across the different parts of the community, you've eaten the different food. What's been your reading of all these different nations, right? So you're a Ugandan, you see things, you see things through a very Ugandan prison. You go to Kigali. How do you navigate a totally different reality with and still remain with your Ugandan identity?

SPEAKER_05 5:30

So I I I'm fortunate enough to have been born in Kenya, but I'm half Rwandan. Yeah. So for me, navigating any one of those two other countries is a lot easier than your ordinary Uganda. Because the Kenya Rwanda language is not strange to me. We occasionally used to speak it at home. So I knew the basics of Kenya Rwanda. I'm a lot better because I lived there now in Kenya Rwanda. My first, my second language was actually Swahili. So I'm very fluent in Swahili. Sometimes I think even a lot more fluent than I am in my local dialect, so for me, I would not be your ideal person to answer that question from a general standpoint of Insta African. But for me, I can I can I have had the privilege of being able to, when I was in Rwanda, I was Rwanda. I was not in Uganda and working. Oh really? Like I, because of being part Rwanda and having very many Rwand friends, being able to speak the language, I became a Nirwanda. And you did not feel.

SPEAKER_04 6:38

I hear what you're saying. Like we're almost the same. I'm my mother is a Mutoro. So is it through your dad or your mom? Mom. Your mom is a Niranda. Okay. So it's super easy for me to navigate these two countries. But when you're moving into a different space, you still have to at some level suspend what you define as normal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:06

So yeah, yeah. So so mine was a bit complicated, but the one thing I had told myself is every time I'm going to go into another country, and at the time I didn't even know I was going to go to Kenya, because Kenya found me when I was working in Rwanda comfortable. But I said, and you've been given the task of navigating your first private radio station post the genocide. A lot of I What radio was there? I did this. I did this. Oh, that was uh oh, with uh with Nyagahene, yes. So, and he pulled me from here. So it says, listen, I we need you to first of all understand the genocide in totality. Because at the time it was happening, I was in high school. I didn't really understand it in its totality. Yes, you read about it here and there, but you don't really, you know what I mean? Like those who lived it and you are on two different wavelengths. So he says, before we give you this job, and you're the one to manage our programming from start to finish, it's very important that you understand what the genocide was, the impact it has on people, what a radio station did during the genocide, what this means for us to now have a private radio station post the genocide, the impact radio has on all the communities, all of that for me was drop into the deep end. Figure this out.

SPEAKER_04 8:18

So walk us through that. What did because he tells you you need to do this. Yes. Walk us through your findings. So your research, your learning.

SPEAKER_05 8:28

Yeah, so so the first thing I did was get into as much of the local population as I can without having to leave Kigali. Just within Kigali, talk to your maid, talk to your shamba boy, talk to your border guy, talk to your what, talk, even the guys who were there say, no, I want to talk to somebody who was here during not this is Ugandans who, Rwandan Ugandans who came post the genocide, who moved back. No, I want to talk to guys who are here. And when you talk to them, what do you find out? So I went in with my understanding of radio that I had been taught here, that radio is a fun, jovial, loud, nice place where everything should be informative, but should be fun. Now, I got the job in I can't remember the month, but it was not far off from Kuibuka. So Kuibuka is usually around April. April. So I am still putting together my entire solid lineup of programming, interviewing people who are going to, you know, be on the radio station, and what I'm selling to them is fun. Then I get a phone call from my only client at the time, who was a telco, which had just opened. Randatel or was it?

SPEAKER_03 9:45

No, MTN.

SPEAKER_05 9:47

And no, I get a phone call from somebody in the ministry, and they say, you know, Quivoka is coming. I say, that is uh April, the morning period. I say, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm aware of it. Have you changed your programming for the month of April? I said, what do you mean? He says, yeah, you have to change the programming. Move from this uh happy stuff. We're going to mourning and this conversations because part of the whole process of the Quivoka area is what's that thing that they do in uh in Arusha? Uh the ICTR, that that was the reconciliation and and and yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

The ICTR, that was the International Criminal Tribunal.

SPEAKER_05 10:28

Uh-huh. So, but there's a whole reconciliation part, which has to be part of your programming. I had not planned for that. I didn't even know where to start. And they say every single song you had put together for your lineup, Tora. And for the now for that NSI time, it is conversations and sad music.

SPEAKER_04 10:43

And that's a at that time, that was probably the full 100 days.

SPEAKER_05 10:47

Yes. For that time, it was at least, at least they had said you have to give us, you have to do the month. Of April. Of April. So, so not the three months, but at least the month. So, of course, we you know pushed back a bit and said, look, a month without because now the advertising is also very upbeat. Buy this bando. So you can't you have to remove all of that. So I'm losing that revenue. Yes. And I'm telling the guy, of course, the client has no problem. It is, it's it's it's it's a national law, nothing you can do about it. But I'm telling these guys, I said, guys, if if I lose this revenue for a month, I won't be able to pay salaries. They said, okay, we'll give you three weeks, but that's it. Three weeks, three weeks of of mourning, of music change, conversations change, all that upbeat stuff goes away. Remove all these funky adverts. If there's no advert, it's fine. But let people talk, let people conversate, let people relate, let people get over their grief. Reconciliation, that's the word. So let people reconcile. And if they want to come and call on the radio and cry, so be it. Like so we have to go back to the drawing board. So this was not part of what I came. But I said, you know what? I'm here now. This is evidently going nowhere, it'll happen every year, same time. And good for me, because this was also part of my history as a part random that I needed to know this, that this was that serious. And going back home, I remember one day I got home and my maid was on the compound in the garden, rolling, cried, wailing, actually, like someone had beaten her. Really? Yeah, I get it through the compound and she's running around, wailing. So I'm like, hey, do you go? You do you carry her? Do you stop? Do you what do you do? What year was this? This is uh 2004. Because it was sort of like the 10th year anniversary. That was intense. Yes. So the 10th year anniversary, that's when they gave Nyaga Hene the license. And it was, man, a whole process that she was going through. I didn't know what to do. I left her, I called a friend. Luckily, it was a female friend. I said, listen, I can't call a male friend because if somebody has to walk, hug her, it has can't be, it has to be neutral, lest you think we're trying something else. So she came, she said, by the Marquis, relax, don't say a word, sit here and wait for her to go through the process. Now, this was the process when I was going through that entire reworking of my program lineup. And you've talked to people, you have understood how the magnitude of this matter, but I didn't understand it until that moment. That's when it hit home. Like, whoa. This stuff was serious. So that evening is when now she tells me her trauma and her version of what she went through and how she lost everybody in her family, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_04 13:44

And how does such a story change how you see what is the community around you? Because very often when when people non-Rwandans get to know about Ronda, and everything is okay until you really tell them, then all of a sudden, it then becomes oh, how do I trust these people? Because maybe my neighbor is a killer, maybe because that's what the genocide did. It broke societal trust. Completely. So now you're someone who's coming in from Uganda, totally different background. You've not been raised to be suspicious in that way. How does that change how you navigate your job and your experience in the country? Listen, I know just how annoying it is when, just in the middle of a really interesting conversation on YouTube, an ad appears. That frustration is why we've created the long form Patreon. For just $4 a month, you can enjoy ad-free listening, early access to conversations a full day before they're publicly released, and you're directly supporting the work that we do here. Every episode takes time, research, and sometimes plane tickets. We don't do it for money. We do it because we genuinely believe in sharing stories and conversations that matter. If you want to be part of that journey, you can join the long form Patreon by scanning the QR code that you can see right now on the screen or using the link in the description. And if membership is too much of an investment, you can still support us by making a one-time donation via our MTN Momo using the code registered under LF Media 95462. Thank you so much for believing in what we do. Here's the question: what are your secrets worth? And how far will you go to protect them? Every day, tens of thousands of hacked credentials for emails, social media, and other services are bought and sold on the dark web, all without victims suspecting a thing. If you're like me and desire some peace of mind, Threat Informant is for you. Built by Chill Tech Hub, a cybersecurity company, Threat Informant is a dark web monitoring online solution that allows you to search the deep web for hidden markets, detect your leaked data, and react before any damage is done. And here is the best part. It's available for government agencies, businesses, and individuals like myself. It's simple. If your data is out there, Threat Informant will let you know. So take control of your digital safety today and scan the QR code that you can see on your screen, or click the link in the description to sign yourself and your entire organization up. You cannot protect yourself if you don't know you're under threat. Get threat informant today.

SPEAKER_05 16:58

So by for purposes of context, in 94, I was in a school called Namasagali. Namasagali is by the lake, by the river Nile.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 17:08

And in those 100 days, and I have people who will testify to what I'm about to say, we would go to the lake to swim or to do whatever it is we're doing by the lake. You've left your boat in Victoria. No, River Nile, actually. It's River Nile. And we would see body parts. Just see an arm that's going with the river. You're like, what was it? But did that look like? But from a distance, you're like, da da da da. Now that went on for about a month. And when I got home for holidays, and I was understanding the magnitude of the genocide, the arm made sense. Did you talk to your mom about what you saw? Yes. Completely. And everybody was at home in radios following the news. It was bad. So again, I'm a guy who is in VAC. I'm like, yeah, it's a problem that's not currently affecting me. Yes. So the magnet. It's over there. Yeah, it's over there. It's us, that's their stuff. It's the same way we had the war in the north in Uganda. But people in Kampala are like, that's their problem. Yes. That's not my problem in Kampala, but it's actually a problem still going on, nevertheless. So 10 years down the road, hearing this story and looking at that woman, that image came back. So everything that I was being told that they were hearing on the radio, the arms I was seeing moving, everything came back full circle. I'm like, I didn't realize 10 years ago what big of a mess this was. Listening to these people now and having to actually navigate my way around their cultural struggles, it has hit home completely. Again, never be the same as somebody who actually lost relatives and cousins and people, whatever. But I I sort of understood the magnitude of the genocide.

SPEAKER_04 19:05

Does that make you understanding just how because with radio, like you said, it was fun, it was about entertainment, you know, it was loud voices, a lot of lots of color. Does going through that experience, watching your house help go through her trauma and listening to her story, does it make you a different kind of broadcaster?

SPEAKER_05 19:38

Oh no, 100%. It it it first of all taught me that because the training that you're given for radio is you're sort of you're you're taught to anticipate Sunny's thought process and his mood swings, so that I'm able to talk to you in a way that Sunny will take this message. So if we're talking about, and if I know that Sunny is a happy guy and and but he has a short attention span, I need to find a way to tell my story to you in one minute. My job is to figure you out so that I can be able to tell you a story better. It taught me that I did, I hadn't fully understood people, even though I thought I did. Because number one, people are not what they seem generally. Number two, this is a completely broken society. Even though we are trying to reconcile and everything, it's not as plug and play as I thought it would be. Everything that I thought I knew, I had to wash away and start afresh because we are now in the process of understanding how to manage this new dynamic that I had not been trained for. And now I must find a way to talk to Sunny, considering what Sunny has been through, in a way where I am being empathetic, but I'm still giving information, but I'm also trying to give you hope.

SPEAKER_04 21:01

But you're also program director. So I understand if you were the on-air talent and that's all you were, is that that you can do. But you were also leading young men and women. Actually, a good friend of mine was part of the team. We'll talk about him off camera. But how do you impart? Because you're a leader. You've you've had a certain level of maturity and you've done a certain level of research. And that those experiences as a student and then a graduate, and then these experiences that you just talked about change you and change how you see messaging. Yeah. How do you then teach that to the on air talent?

SPEAKER_05 21:50

The beauty about it is that everybody we employed was a local. I'm not teaching a Ugandan. Yeah, okay. Everybody understands this process. Now, Some were not as impacted as others. Nature of life. Some more than others. Some lost more people. Some didn't lose anyone at all. Some have a complete bloodline gone. We sit in a room and we all agree. In fact, I'm probably the only person in that entire room who doesn't have a complete understanding of what was going on 10 years ago. In that entire room of talent, I'm the one with the least knowledge or the least experience. Of the most important thing that has ever happened to Rwandans. To Rwandans. The people I'm talking to, I'm preaching to the choir. But I'm telling them that in as much as we have to keep cognizant of the fact that reconciliation is our target and our goal this month of April, we need to find a way together how to still keep hope alive. Which is what the entire reconciliation process is about. It's about what Kibuka is about. It's about how do we still keep hope alive and know that Rwanda is bigger than that one month, those 100 days. We are still rebuilding, we're going to get back, we're going to do better. How do you keep hope alive? Before, like you said, the complete social trust is gone and gone for good. Then you're like, guys, we are going to go through the process. People must mourn. But in the process, the message at the end of every process so that you have God through the crying, the what, the episodes, the sob stories, we're gonna sell hope. This is what success looks like, guys. We are selling hope because there must be a tomorrow for Rwanda. And we're we are the first private radio station to be able to do this professionally. So let's get it right. And that's really how we mess turned around our messaging into that entire month or something.

SPEAKER_04 23:47

And for people who don't understand just what just how important getting it right as the first private radio station was, because there are a lot of people who actually are listening to this conversation, they're like, what was the problem? The very first private radio, for those who don't know, I'm just what's called the Radio Televisio Libre de Micolin, RTLM, the what they call hate radio. And that was the very first private radio. I think it was formed, it was established maybe about 1992. So when they talk about private radio, it was it became the mouthpiece of the genocide. Yes. So during sometimes it became super popular because it used to play great music. And in between the great music, some some people there's a funny story. They they talk about the music was so good. So on on one side, the the rebels had their the rebel radio. It was called uh Radio Muhabura, which was, you know, a lot of it was messaging about the RPF, about liberation, and the fact that, you know, Rwandans are one people. Then the other side there was obviously Radio Rwanda, that was boring government, no one listened to that. Then there was the Radio Libre Micolin. Now that one played the latest pop music.

unknown 25:13

Right?

SPEAKER_04 25:13

So we're talking about the power of radio. It played the latest pop music, it was super popular, it had amazing DJs. Actually, even the most, the scariest people, if you listen to them with their messaging, their style was magnetic. It could caught you, it grabbed me. It cut you. Even while they were saying, kill your neighbor. Yeah, these are cockroaches, take their property. Please, and and and and but they sounded so good. Imagine selling such eight with vibe. Absolutely. And and and so I I just wonder, I'm just wondering. On on the top, it's uh Rondon, the CEO, the founder. As you said, at the bottom, it's a fully local talent pool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:06

Then there's the head of commercial was was was Rondan, but I think she had grown up in France. So then after that is me. Yes. So then there's you, the East African, the Ugandan.

SPEAKER_04 26:21

You're the anomaly in the room. How do you navigate that? Again, I was lucky that I could speak the language.

SPEAKER_05 26:31

No, there was no pushback, you know, every so often. No, not really, actually. Yeah. I remember in in the in the in the launch, in the launch, the the the boss, Mr. Nyagahenes, said, and he said it in Kinyar Rwanda, I'll never forget. Yes. Why have I brought a Ugandan to run our first radio private station?

SPEAKER_04 26:51

Who was he talking to?

SPEAKER_05 26:53

Everybody, CEOs, da-da-da-da-da, ministry people. Why have I brought a Ugandan to come and run our radio station? And he said, because we wanted to get it right, we brought somebody with experience.

SPEAKER_04 27:05

So he saw you as not as a stranger, but as a good.

SPEAKER_05 27:12

Yes. And also, he also said, but also, as you can see, if you look at me, Nwenewatch. So he said, forget about the fact that he comes from Uganda, but as you can see, he's also Rwandese. So don't worry about that. And then when I came to speak, I gave half my speech in English, half my speech in Kenya Rwanda, half my speech in Swahili, and I said, I'm an East Africa. But I have Rwandan blood, and this I want to do right. So because I understand radio, don't worry about it. Everything is going to be 100% local. I'm not going to try and impose the Ugandan way of doing things or da-da-da-da-da. No, no, no, it's here, born and bred, and it stays here.

SPEAKER_04 27:46

But then you were in Rwanda for how long?

SPEAKER_05 27:48

Two and a half years.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

Then I was put to Kenya to Kenya. Now, unlike Rwanda, where you can say that, you know, my mother is from here. Now you're truly a foreigner. A foreigner. The rules that you had kind of learned from Uganda Radio, Running Radio, now they've changed. It's a totally different market. What are what is the biggest surprise?

SPEAKER_05 28:27

The biggest surprise I found in Kenya was the work ethic. Or should I say the man-eat man mentality? Rwanda is, again, 2004 already has just started pretty decently laid back. Uganda has always been laid back. That's who we are as a people. We're not in a rush to do anything. Kenya, on the other hand, was complete culture shock for me. The way in which they and I didn't realize this when the day I got, because I went in now not as a boss, but as on air talent. Okay. And why would you do that? You weren't you quite comfortable back home. I was. I was. But remember, in Uganda I was also on-air talent. I wasn't, I wasn't in management. I only moved to management when I went to Rwanda. Now, the beauty about it is that Rwandan radio and Ugandan radio were nowhere near Kenyan radio in terms of experience. Yes. So I the way I thought about it was, I'm going to learn. And boy, did I learn.

SPEAKER_04 29:30

You know that that's super brave because a lot of people. One of the things that, in my experience, you can get comfortable being a big fish in a very small pond.

SPEAKER_05 29:44

In a very small pond.

SPEAKER_04 29:45

Very easily. And not only do you get comfortable, it's pretty nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:50

Your household name. Yeah. You're good. The pay is decent. Everything is fine. Why would I want to go and be a nobody in a big town like Kenya? Good question. Why? I wanted to learn. I said, if this is the direction we are going to take with this life of ours, let me go to the big boys and see if we can make it with the big boys. So it's a challenge to yourself. Let me go and be a small fresh in the big pond and we see what happens. And once you get over the culture shock of the work ethic and you start to think like a Kenyan, work, talk me through this work ethic.

SPEAKER_04 30:25

I've always heard about it. Hey, before we dive back into the conversation, are you a business looking to grow your reach, an organization hoping to connect with a youth, or a market leader with a great product you want people to know about? You can advertise right here on the Longform Podcast. Reach out to us on our email, commercial at sendinayombia.com, or on our phone number 0795462739. Let me repeat, on our phone number, 0795462739. We'd love to help you tell your story. And now back to the conversation. What exactly are they doing differently for us?

SPEAKER_05 31:15

So the way Kenyans work, first of all, and we're going to give you the constant the context of media, then give you the context of what I think generally about Kenyans. So context for media is they give Ugandans and Rwandans would allow you to get into your group, your skin, get into your mood, get into your vibe. But they're like, hey, boss, the guy is one week old. Give him time. You're there, you're stammering, you're the words are getting stuck, you're not saying it right, you're making English grammatical mistakes, you are the joke is not funny, nothing is working. Uganda and Rwanda will allow you to move on. They'll even give you a month, sometimes even two. In Kenya, you get a week, max. And immediately you get feedback. Especially on radio. On radio. And especially if they know you're not Kenya. So it's double, double sword. They're saying, first of all, they are brought to Uganda. Secondly, the guy doesn't even know how to speak. What is this English? What is this English? So luckily for me is like you, I don't have a typical Ugandan accent. We speak proper normal English, which is fine. Luckily for me as well is I understood Swahili. So I quickly blended in my SWA and I didn't sound foreign anymore. Then now you have to get into putting in the work to understanding how a Kenyan thinks. So now every day after the show, you go and sit in a bar and hang with Kenyans and you're doing nothing but listening. Nobody at that point understands you are on research, you're on fact-finding missions. And what you're trying to figure out is the training that I talked about from the beginning. What makes this guy tick? What are the things that piss him off? What are the things that make him happy? Does he like his meat with sauce? No, he doesn't. What kind of chicks does he like? Is he interested in sports? Does he really really like? Does he complain about the weather? All that is what I'm trying to internalize. Why? Because I'm trying to find out who is this guy. Walk me through this.

SPEAKER_04 33:13

So let's create a Ugandan, Randan, and Kenyan audience. Paint a picture. What are the similarities? What are the differences?

SPEAKER_05 33:24

Randan might have changed by then, but I'll give it anyway, because that was when Radio just started, so maybe I didn't get a chance to do it properly. But I'll give you the differences. A Randon is mostly very reserved. I will tell you honestly what you need to hear. There are very many things that I will say, that I will think that I won't say. I will hear about you, Sunny. Okay. Sunny, I might even say you have a nice shirt, but we'll stop there. I won't ask who did it, I won't ask where you got it from, I won't ask da-da-da-da. That's enough. If I see you with a beautiful girl, as hell won't say anything. I'll just leave it at that. So mostly very reserved. Unless you really get to know the guy, then they'll be like, I'll be I'll open up more and I'll be more open about the things that are I want to tell you or are affecting me. And again, maybe it's because of the nature of the nation, maybe it's the history, maybe it's the again.

SPEAKER_04 34:27

And how does that then as a radio performer, as a person speaking to that audience, how do you then tailor a message to that kind of person?

SPEAKER_05 34:38

You see, at the end of the day, I I know you're thinking it. I just know you can, I know you just can't say it. But I know you're thinking it. Why? Because when we step aside away from a group of 10 people in the bar or in the restaurant, you tell it to me. Because now you trust me. So now I know this is where actually the guy's mind is, and this is what he thinks of this situation. This is where his head is at. But he just can't say it in people. So I'll be there's his voice. And you will see half the time, says, Yeah, he knows why. Yeah, yeah, I be born. Yeah, I've been finished. Now, in come a Uganda who, for the most part, all about the good life. Now, the good life is I want the nice things in my life around me. Define a good thing. It's a good thing. It's what we call today a vibe. It's it's are we walking through that? So, so more often than not, it's it's easier to talk to Ugandan. I'm talking about generic urban Ugandan. So I don't want the guys who talk serious things to be offended. Your general urban 27, 28-year-old Ugandan. If in a day we're going to have a conversation, let's say we're going to talk for six hours, uh your ordinary guy would want to talk about social happenings for more than half of that time. So you're talking about social, so it's it's the nightlife, it's the girls, it's the sports, it's the it's this it's the non-serious stuff. When we get to serious stuff, yeah, we'll do it and we'll talk about it and we'll get to the point and move on quickly. Says anyway, so is the is business done? What are we doing? Where are we going? What's happening? Where is happening? What are we doing? We have finished work, right? Yeah. Strictly, let's move on. Even if I've met you today, which that openness you will not find with Rwanda. They cannot. Again, my opinion. Now in come the Kenya who from get-go, I want to discuss how we are going to make money aggressively, of let's we we have to move from here to Bujera now, we go. Why? Because there's a deal. Let's go. If you take a an aerial view, and we didn't have drones at the time, but if you take a drone picture of city center, Kigali, city center, Kampala, city center Nairobi, it'll depict a very clear picture of what I've just said. In Nairobi, guys will literally run you over while walking. In Kampala, they will walk equally fast, but there's there's the decency to say, first, first, can I pass? Yes. Yeah, let me pass. In Rwanda, I'm talking about the time I was there, we were not in a rush. We'll actually be very comfortable walking, but then again, it's almost 20 years ago. So the trade wasn't as heavy then at the time. I'm sure now if you go there, because you'll also find there's very many people who have come to Rwanda, it's a lot more aggressive. You understand? But that aerial view depicts everything I just said. One is super aggressive, male and female, for the record, that's Kenya. Uganda is smack bang in the middle, Rwanda not yet. That was then. Today, it probably might meet like the difference in percentages, maybe not so much. I think if you're to go to Remera downtown, you will find people who are as aggressive as they are in Kiseni, as they are in Moya Avenue. You probably will find those people. But the general understanding to answer your question of the three differences in those people was level of aggression, level of hunger, level of need, level of go-getting attitude. The similarities was, I think, generally across East Africa, we I think most of us still have what I like to call Ubuntu. We maybe in Kenya they might be losing it a bit, but at least I know in Rwanda and Uganda, Ubuntu is still there. So I might, whether or not I actually do care, but I might actually appear to care about your well-being. So whether it's fake, forged, false, pretentious, I don't know. But at least I know it's still there. Kenyan, because of the aggression, sometimes you feel that the Ubuntu is going. Sometimes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:20

There's uh when we talk about the East African dream, you know, the your president, uh, his uh Yori Museveni loves to talk about you know the dream this dream of um a federal, uh a federal East Africa, the Federation of East African States, which is not a terrible dream to have. But even around issues of free movement of goods and labor, it's still been uh quite a bit of a problem. Interestingly enough, you've you've been almost able to beat that system, you know, moving freely. Very free. What and maybe it's a political question, but why what how were you able to to live your dream so easily? You know, and when you see, you know, you Rwanda, Kenya, Uganda, no problem, you know, where you're you're saying, I want to learn, okay, let me go here. That's not many people's experience. You know, you'll find Ugandan traders in South Sudan being harassed and murdered. You'll see. I think I saw something in in Kenya during the elections last time. They literally burnt the Ugandan consul. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then that's it. So so this dream that the politicians are are talking about, this dream of free movement, of labor and this and that, and is that fundamentally a pipe dream?

SPEAKER_05 41:28

So, first of all, it was not as easy as I made it seem. Uh-huh. Walk us through that. That's number one. Rwanda was very easy. I think it's partly because I I have had a Rwandan, I have Rwandan blood. That was not a problem. Kenya was complicated. Like I said, they they they're they're very competitive people. It just so happened. So walk us through that. The actual process. So, so so getting there, you still have to get a work permit. And this was back in the day when you had to pay for the work permit. Now you don't have to pay for it, but you still have to get it. And it was, it was it was, I think, a lot of money. But the type the guy I was working for, who is the late Chris Kirubi, pretty well connected. And he did all the he did all of that for me. And it was still a big process because they said, why are we getting a Ugandan to work on our radio station? Like we don't have Kenyans who can do that here. So that's always the work permit issue. You only get a foreigner if you have advertised locally and you can't get somebody. It doesn't matter which field you're in. So we'll only get an engineer to do oil because we have failed to find a local who can do it. So here is a guy said, we don't have Kenyans who can talk on radio. What nonsense is this? Just talking. Just talking, surely. They said, no, no, no. This guy's skill set, we don't have it. We have looked, we don't have it. By the time we're getting somebody from another country, we actually don't have this skill set. And that became another war on its own. Luckily, the man with his heavy connections, may he rest well, manage to talk to who he needed to talk to, pay. And I can't remember how much it was, but I knew it was a lot of money to get that work permit. And he paid it. And after paying it, he told me, Magaz, this is how much I've paid for you. He showed it to you. Yeah. And said, if this money doesn't come back, we are in trouble. And I said, How does that make you feel? Important, but again, pressure. It's good to know that somebody's willing to invest this kind of money in you, but again, the pressure is on now. Like we must find a way.

SPEAKER_04 43:30

How old are you at this point?

SPEAKER_05 43:32

20.

SPEAKER_04 43:35

About 2007?

SPEAKER_05 43:36

Yeah, thereabout. Yeah, 26, 25. Yeah. Thereabout. That's how old you were? Then at the time. Yeah. So 2006 there. Because I I was also an integral part of that post election violence drama. I was already on radio and I was already a big deal. And by that time, the Kenyans loved me. They didn't even know I was Ugandan anymore. And anyway, I'll get to that story later. So so the beginning. Part was actually not rosy. And even after four years with this particular employer, and you move to another employer within Kenya, one guy is going to come and say, but has he renewed his work permit? It was supposed to be renewed every year. Yes. And it became a whole thing of first of all, we were told that he has because now I was so nobody could tell I was Ugandan. Because I sounded Kenyan, I spoke the language well. Everybody knew for sure this guy is one of us. So the audience had bought in to whatever I was.

SPEAKER_04 44:34

And you probably called yourself Marcus.

SPEAKER_05 44:36

Yes. And I was Marcus. So the Quichiriza was. And nobody knew about Kuichiriza name. Yes. So Marcus is the guy they knew. Marcus is the guy who was at every function. Marcus was a household name in Kenya. Goodos to you. Now you have to switch stations. And then one guy says, but let's check. I think he has a Kenyan national ID. Who's one guy? A guy there who's trying to kill the deal. From what side? Yeah, from the guy of the old radio station that I'm moving to the new one. Trying to kill the so he wants, he's trying to figure out how to get you to stay. No, trying to, because it says, we have already disagreed with the boss. I'm moving. I've already got a different offer, more money. He's trying to make sure that they can't get him. If I don't have him, let him go back to Uganda. Then there's a whole process of no, yeah, he might even have a fake ID. Whatever, let's check. They check, there's nothing. I'm told I was not even at home. Some people went to my house. We have been told that this man has a fake ID. Which people? Let's say you're going very fast.

SPEAKER_04 45:31

Which people go to your house?

SPEAKER_05 45:33

Police.

SPEAKER_04 45:35

And they are looking for you because?

SPEAKER_05 45:37

Because they're looking for me so that I can verify that I have a Kenyan national ID. And you so I wasn't home at the time.

SPEAKER_04 45:48

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SPEAKER_00 47:04

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SPEAKER_04 47:10

And so people who don't understand this, so in Ronda, there's two two IDs. There's the foreign residence ID, there's the Nagamun which is a good thing. So when you talk about the We're talking about the Nagamun.

SPEAKER_05 47:25

The national ID of Kenya. So you actually had the national idea. I didn't. But that's the story that they were projecting that this guy, first of all, is operating on two nationalities. He has a Kenyan ID, the original one. I said, Me, from where are you people? Said, no, no, no, we need to check. Luckily, the people who were home knew their rights and said, no, no, no, until you come back here with a warrant, there's no such thing. So I come back home and they're like, there were three guys here today asking for your national ID. I said, which national ID? They said, Kitambolishi are Kenya, I kwapi. I said, What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_04 48:00

But why wouldn't they just go to the Ministry of National?

SPEAKER_05 48:03

Because they because they figured that it was fake.

SPEAKER_04 48:06

Oh. So they thought I had faked. Ah, they thought that you had a counterfeit national idea.

SPEAKER_05 48:10

National ID. So I said, guys, please, there's no such thing. I went myself to the to the people of registration. I said, I don't know where this has come from. I have no such thing. Because my new employer now said, let's clear the air. What's this about? So we went through that process again now of getting a work permit. And then I said, guys, here's my work permit with my passport. This is what I use to travel. This is what I use to show that I am a resident in this country here. So we went through that phase. So to your point, it hasn't been free movement. It was we went through the phases and somehow you managed to stick through it and succeed. Now, to your initial question, is is this a pipe dream? I I there's no there's no easy way for this to eventually become a success story. Because, like I said earlier, the Ugandan will subconsciously be Ugandan. I will not wake up one morning and I am this East African. I am Ugandan first. And my biggest challenge from a political standpoint was they were having boardroom discussions, but was never cascading to the offices that matter. Because even when the work permit issue was removed, and say, guys, we have worked out that Ugandans can work in Kenya, Kenyans in Uganda, Tanzania and Rwanda, and there's no work permit, you just have to go through the process, but don't pay for it. That never reached the immigration desk. It took forever to reach there. By the time you get there and say, guys, they removed this thing. They said, who? So the document was signed by the three presidents. Ah, they haven't told us. You know what I mean? So boardroom meetings were happening. It's not cascading down. The people who actually implement this stuff have no idea what you guys are talking about. By the time it eventually happens, two years have passed. There's a couple of people here who could have moved and worked to different places, but it's just too murky. Now, eventually it happened. You can work, I think, these days without a work permit, and it's not a big deal. You still have to go through the process. I don't know if it can get to the point where a mechanic can come and work, a Kenyan mechanic or a Ugandan nurse can go and work in a hospital, away from the corporate ladder, away from a GM, an MD of a bank coming here to work, da-da-da, away from those. But let's go down to the to the white collar jobs. Can they come? Can a mechanic come? Can a carpenter come? Can can a nurse go? Can is have we reached that level? I don't know. Do I still think it's something that should happen? I actually am 100% for the East African dream. I think we we are better together than apart, especially for trade and numbers. Once you increase our market pool, everybody will win.

SPEAKER_04 51:04

And you'd think that would make perfect sense, right? The I mean, Rwanda has a population of about 14 million people. Uganda plus 50. Yeah. Give or take. Yeah, 49, 52, give or take. And and what? Kenya, what, 70?

SPEAKER_05 51:21

Yeah, then they're also about 60 something now. Right. So that's that's a major that's a block. That's a combined effort of 120 people. But then and that's minus DRC, minus South Sudan who have joined. DRC alone, if DRC comes, we're in 200 million. Yeah, no, we are trading in 200 million. And what is Nigeria's biggest strength over us? Their numbers.

SPEAKER_04 51:44

Or not just their numbers, I think it's also their spending power. No, just the identity of being a Nigerian, right? So the we we've talked about the challenges that you were getting. You know, who's this guy? No, when we talk about xenophobia in Africa and seeing others as others and not yourselves, we always think, oh, it's these South Africans. They don't really see, they think they are better than us.

SPEAKER_05 52:12

But it's in every society. Yes. And you're right. Some are smaller than others. The South Africans are just louder about it and they openly tell you they don't like you. But it's it's quiet. It's quiet. It's there. But I don't think it'll I don't think it's it's an if if everybody, if ever if majority are benefiting, the anger reduces. I think it's bad in South Africa because those eating are few. The ones who are not benefiting, who think that this they're entitled to benefit, are the majority. So they'll kill you for it. But if everybody is getting cheaper maize that's coming from Kenya, everybody wins, which means my cost of my poesho is down in Rwanda, in Uganda. If the pineapple which is coming from Uganda is going across and it's cheaper than what you're getting and it's nice, everybody wins.

SPEAKER_04 53:01

But the elites who control these economies enjoy their monopoly. I mean, right now I think I was uh just looking at uh I was reading the East African a few months back, and there's a major problem between uh Kenya and uh and Uganda. Ugandans had all these eggs, all this milk, can't go across. Can't move across. It's that's right, that's part of the problem. Right now in Rwanda, for those who love Uganda Waraji.

SPEAKER_05 53:34

Can't come. I still don't know why. I still don't know why, though. Yeah, all other drinks are there. All others. So I don't understand what the real issue with Uganda Waraji is.

SPEAKER_04 53:43

That's that's those are the political because there's the again, there's the idea, federal, East African community, and then there is what's actually on the ground.

SPEAKER_05 53:55

Yeah. And and I agree with you, Sunny, it's not something that will be fixed, like everybody's gonna get it. No. When you're entering my business as a pineapple producer in Kenya and you're bringing for me a sweeter, cheaper pineapple from Uganda, for sure I'm going to do everything in my power to block you. Yeah. Because you're eating into my market space. Okay? Yet it might actually be easier for you to buy the pineapple from me and your juice still lands cheaper in Kenya. Yeah. But are they going to think about it this way? Maybe not. However, I believe that sooner rather than later, with the same political will, as long as the people in those seats are not directly involved in the trade, where you know there's no president who has who owns Brookside. Oh, yeah, who owns the milk industry. For as long as that's not the case, or who owns Delamonte, then we shall get somewhere.

SPEAKER_04 54:50

Let's talk about. So you've mentioned something about your on-air presence when Kenya was going through its issues in 2008. You started this conversation talking about what you had to learn about genocide and the power of radio and hate radio in pushing hate messaging. Now, everything that you learned about the power of radio and the power of hate. Now it's like you're in a university.

SPEAKER_05 55:33

Now you are revising, you find yourself in and please note I was dealing with a room full of CEOs because they put together a whole team that's going to try and manage the messaging across the country. But let's let's begin before that.

SPEAKER_04 55:47

You probably watched things go down, things happen in real time. You were on radio. I was on radio. Walk us through how you see the temperature get hotter and hotter. And what are you thinking? Are you are you seeing based off of the revision you had done in Rwanda?

SPEAKER_05 56:12

Are you seeing genocide start getting tendencies? Are you seeing that? 100%. So and I I was telling my Kenyan friends this when this stuff was beginning. I said, guys, I'm from a country where guys literally almost finished each other. When you say guys, when it's beginning, Walker, it's a good idea. So so so the election results come out, and of course, politicians lead the way by saying these things are false. Now, luckily for me, I had already understood that Kenya was very tribal. A lot more tribal than most people, and there were, you know, like four or five big tribes. Not like Randa, where there were two guys and they were speaking the same language. No. There were four main players in this operation: Kalinjin, Kikuyu, Luo, Luya. Those are the four main ones. These other guys were coming in as by the ways, being picked by these other groups. And you could see all four leaders in their respective tribal categories start off small. This guy has one, but as we don't agree, then gets his four other guy from another tribe. You do you agree? No, we don't. This is a and if you guys don't recount, we're going to ban this country. And when you hear a leader say this, we're not going to allow everything is going to go to shambles. And the speed in which that statement translates to action on the ground is under 20 minutes. And what are you from the time he said it to the time tires are being burnt in the roadblocks? So where is he saying this? In on in behalf of his car? In a in a market. So there's no mass media.

SPEAKER_03 57:58

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 57:59

But we are the media, we're covering him. And so therefore you're amplifying. So all we said is Can you imagine this guy said he's going to do this? But by that time, the people, the guys who are his run-around people or his stooges or his support cast have kicked off. They've already gone. They've already started burning in the middle of the road. Now, burning in the middle of the road in an election in Africa is not something new. We see it all the time. So it's like, I guess they're going to do that, it's not going to be a big problem. It's fine, don't worry about it. Then you just see it escalating. The next thing you know, they're in people's homes. The next thing you know, it's every road. The next thing you know, they ask people to stay home. But you still have to go to work. I still have to go to work. So put a big sticker and a permission to move and say, ah, media, media, so even when you're passing, you can even tell them, you go to work. Then I sit down with my people and I say, guys, this movie, I've seen it before. I wasn't there, but I know how this ends. And you were literally telling your colleagues. And I'm telling my colleagues, guys, I have seen how this movie ends. And it's not nice. And what do your colleagues say? They're like, you know, Kenyans, we were just here to make some noise. It will all end. One week, two weeks. By the third week, I think I think it was the end of the month, if I remember the dates correctly, is when people started taking this stuff seriously. And said, guys, people are dying. There's an actual hatred now between Kikuyus and Lua's, like it's clear. Kikuyus and Kalingins. Lua's and I said, you guys, this is history repeating itself. You have not learned from a neighboring country. How are you guys okay with this? And are you saying this to the boardroom?

SPEAKER_04 59:52

No, no, no. Right now I'm just saying now. I'm just talking to my peers. Those are the peers.

SPEAKER_05 59:57

I'm telling my fellow presenters, my fellow bosses, I'm like, guys, I honestly think as media, we need to either A, stop reporting this stuff, or B, change what we are saying. Because if we keep saying that five Kikuyus were yesterday killed by five by Louis the other time, this is just going to make matters worse. Because Kikuyus are going to retaliate in the morning. No more procedure. You killed my people, I won't kill yours. Standard operating procedure. Why didn't people understand that? Again, it's it's number one, you think it will never escalate to that. Number two is you think that uh they're the ones who started it. So I'm not going to sit by and do nothing.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:38

And in the newsroom, there are probably people from all these communities.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:41

All these people. And you can see the tensions even in the newsroom. Yeah. Between a Lua reporter, Kalenji, you can see it, but they have to do their job. But then if one guy is going to talk about more that the Kikuyus were killed, and therefore they are going to retaliate, that would be the story he'll run because that's his job now. So you can just see the whole thing becoming a mess. So luckily, I think a group of CEOs, I think it was five of them in the biggest companies, BidCore, Safaricom, I can't remember the others, came together, plus the media bosses came together and then said, guys, let's put together the biggest communication heads we have in this country right now and change this narrative. And that's how I was brought into the room. And then we had to sit down. And now when I was in that room, so who's in the room? Again, CEO of BidCo, CEO of SafariCom, CEO of National Media, CEO of Standard Group, CEO of Royal Citizen, CEO, I think there were four other main companies, and then all influential media personalities. Everybody who Kenyans listened to in both English and Kiswaili. Who convened that meeting? The guy who convened the meeting was, I think it was at, like I said, it was about three CEOs, the Bidko guy, nation media at the time, and I think Safaricom. Because now Safari Com had even started those things of let's send money to families that are suffering. Let's send, let's collect money as Kenyans for people whose houses have been burned down. And he said, but guys, this starts and stops with what media talks about. Because if we're going to report everything, verbatim, to the masses and the guy who was at home seated and he just found out that so-and-so killed so-and-so, I might wake up tomorrow and also join that riot. It was not in my plan. I was sitting at home minding my business. But now I have a reason to wake up. So they convened the meeting. We sat down, brainstormed. In that meeting, I remember mentioning it categorically, I said, guys, please take this meeting with the seriousness it deserves. Because as somebody who has been part and parcel of what a genocide looks like, it's going to take Kenya no less than 15 years to get past this otherwise small manageable stuff. And I said, But Marcus, how do you know? Then I tell them my story. And at that point, remember, everybody thought I was Kenyan. So they said, Marcus, you're all alone, you're half Rwanda. And you worked in Rwanda before. Said, yeah. And I was there when Randa was celebrating 10 years, and I saw what that had done to them. And this is 10 years later. So, guys, please take this stuff seriously. And we did. We did a one-month campaign, everything stopped. That's how all these international meetings started happening, handshakes started happening, everything went calm down. But we had to change the narrative from there. And to your point earlier, of at that point, do you question? Do you are you now wondering? I thought I knew Kenyans. You know how I asked myself when I was in Rwanda that I thought I knew Rwandans? Then you hear the stories, you're like, I actually don't know these people. Same thing happened then. He said, I thought I knew these guys. Then you realize you don't. Luckily, I'm training from Rwanda. So I figured, you know what? Human beings are a complicated species. We just need a reason to go left field, and maybe, maybe any one of us could go. I'm not saying it's a Kenya problem, I'm not saying it's a Rwanda problem. I'm saying maybe given the right motivation, I could be the guy next door doing something. Why? Because you messed up with my people. So I just somebody just needs to say the right thing to me at the right time with the right context. And maybe I'll be the one to go. That's why the whole messaging had to change.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:29

You know what you're talking about? Media, personalities, corporate businesses coming together to actually figure out, okay, we're in this mess. Let us create a new narrative. I don't know if it can exist in today's world because all of them were what we call in media gatekeepers. Yeah. Right? If if that was a time when uh social media, terrestrial was all you had. Right, right. So 2008, there's not even uh there's barely any Facebook. Yeah. Maybe I remember high five. Yeah, maybe high five. But there's not that. Yes. And and that's how people so radio was the way people engaged. Radio talk shows were waste. Radio and people spoke to other people. When you think about the power of that room, that this by by what we did, the decisions we made in that room were able to reduce the flame that was tearing Kenya apart. If something was like that was to occur again in the world that we live in now, where everything is extremely fragmented, where TikTokers own this. Streets the way a Kiss FM used to own the streets in Kenya. Who then switches off?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:11

Reduces the heat. That will be a challenge for sure in today's in today's world. And if you realize the best countries at managing what comes out of their nations are countries where there's no complete freedom of expression. It's there and it's on paper and you can talk and you can. But there are times when they'll start switching you off. Especially if you're going to show their country in bad light. Whether or not what you're saying is true. So I think we have reached a point where it's on governments to take this part up. Because Sunny can do what he wants today, so can he, so can you, so can I. I've been given the freedom to do it, which includes and not limited to watching videoing you guys burn each other. Now, what would have been the right thing to do at that point? Call police, figure out a solution, why are they burning each other, separate them, da-da-da-da-da-da. Stop the escalation of this stuff. That's the right and moral thing to do. Who did what at that point? Let's first stop it. What do we do these days? Wait for them until both of them are dead and burnt to ashes. Recording, then post. It's good content. Again. And now that it's also monetized. So you see my point. Now, because and I'm not even thinking about whether or not I'm going to get uh money from it. I just know that it's gonna get me the necessary following views and ETC that I like. But what should you have done at that point? What's the noble right moral thing to do when you see two guys almost finishing each other? Either call the people who can't, if you can't stop it yourself, call people, call the police, call the call whoever to stop the escalation. What we're doing right now is, and I'll even show my face. Why? Because it's the cool thing to do now. Anybody can do that. So how do we stop? How do I convince you that sonny what you're doing is wrong? You're not gonna listen to me. You're like, Marcus, get off your high horse. This is what we do these days. There's nothing you're gonna do about it. Yeah, it's content, and content is across the board. Now, whose responsibility is it now to manage that content flow? The the the the negative part of content creation. Because, like everything else, there's positive and negative. And and sadly, negative sells more, like everything else in media. Bad headline is going to do 10 times better than a good headline. Even back in the day when all we had was print. If you saw a picture of a dead guy, and then there would be a word in in Luganda say Bamuse, which is they have killed him. And there's another one that says, We have built a railway. Tell me which paper we'll sell.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:13

Earlier this year in uh in Uganda, because it goes back to that that what we're just talking about, which is who is in charge of maintaining state stability? Because that's fundamentally what it is. Now, one of the things that happened that was quite controversial was the shutdown of the internet.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:37

The internet.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:40

Now, you you you know, you probably are able to help us understand the the the how and the why. Was there because you've seen, okay, Rwanda there was genocide because of the media. In Kenya, it was a hop, skip, and a jump away from it from being a genocide. Post-election violence is two moves away from that genocide. Now, was there an actual threat? Because as a Rwanda watching all of this, someone some could have said, you know, it's a bit of it's it's overkill. There's nothing to really, it's there's no need for this. But you've lived in all these societies, you've literally participated in quailing genocide in the making. Was there, do you think that shutting down the internet during these elections that pitted the Yori Masseveni and uh Chagulani, uh Bobby Wine, was necessary. Do you think it was necessary? Yes. Really?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:00

Here's why. The the the the Kenans never thought it would get that far. I can't say the same for the Rwandans, but I think they probably thought that after Habiarimana's plane went down and the radio stations did what they were doing, they probably thought we were going to be done with this thing in for 10 days. Although the message had been going around, going around, going around, but nobody knew it was going to get to a million people dead in 100 days.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:30

And I think at some level, Rwandans before the 1994 Journal Side Against Setutsi, they had gotten used to a few dead bodies here and there. Yeah, this is part of the political process.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:41

It's part of how we're going to get to where we want to get to. Now, you have to ask yourself, is this a chance you're willing to take? Do we want to figure out whether or not wait and see if this will get that bad? Or do we nip it in the bird alley? Now, this is a decision you have to make as a leader of a country.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:03

But you as a as a as a as someone who lived here during those times and probably had a good understanding of the Zeitgeist.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:13

Did you see the little ingredients in the society just before the So so every once in a while you will hear a guy tell you, but he's a border guy, and then he'll tell you in Luganda, I'm going to go back to your home.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:33

And he's telling you. He's telling me sitting.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:35

No, I'm passing passing by me. I'm not even on his with him.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:38

Walk me through this. Are you in a car?

SPEAKER_05 1:12:40

No, I'm walking. So you're walking. So I'm walking, and I tell the guy, say what? When I'm telling a guy, boss, I will go, I want to cross. Yes. And the guy looks at me, looks at my structure and says, he goes. One day you when you're going to go back. You return. Yeah, you return to your homes and leave us in our campala. Now you listen to that, you rubbish it. Because there will be these people around for whatever reason. They are angry at everybody but themselves about what's going on in their lives. So, and they believe that the people right now I should blame these people in power. It happened when Obotia was in power. They blame the people from the north. It is easy. It's life. It's a cycle of leadership. If you go to Kenya, they'll tell you the Kalenjins, we are tired of them doing the Kikuyus. It happens. It's just what it is. Now, the question you have to ask yourself is have have we reached a point where there's enough critical mass for this to become a problem? And by critical mass, it just needs to start. And I say this as somebody who saw it just starting and then become a bushfire right before our eyes.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:44

But then one incident that was, you could call it, I don't, you can't even call it xenophobia. What do you call it? Tribalist?

SPEAKER_05 1:13:53

Yeah. Tribalist? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:56

That does not make uh an incident does not genocide make true.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:02

So why do you think then that there were but but but but some incidents put together will lead to that eventually. One won't. But if you had you witnessed anything else? No, personally, no. I will not say that. I'm not saying that I have. Family members? But but I yeah, no, well, not firsthand. People talk in in social gatherings, and you will hear all these kinds of things. They're like, these guys, by the way, they are planning for you guys. I don't have to. What do you mean? These people that allegedly the noob management has put together. They are planning for you guys. And you guys meaning you guys in power. And by in power, they mean everybody who looks like him Nyankore. So you who looks like him Toro, you're falling under that group. You who looks like Myarwanda, you are in that group. You who looks like a Mufumira, so you're asking, but again, it's not so it's not something I can speak with authority that I know for, I'm not in the security offices operators. I cannot speak with authority on the fact that I know for a fact that this was being planned. No, I don't. But there were rumors of that. But you again, social gatherings, you hear that we're hearing things are being discussed. Now, the truth is you you get to a point where you ask yourself the cost benefit of shutting down the internet for five days or a week and a half vis-a-vis assuming, and again, not with authority, but they they they probably have the numbers, so I can't. I'm not a security person. The numbers of trying to coil this one, two, six, seven incidents when people were left to do what they want in the way they want. The cost benefit of coiling this, if it has grown, God forbid, versus a week and a half versus of no internet. If you think about it, life cost, products, goods, services, bla blah blah blah. Here, the only thing we are going to suffer from is guys who make money off the net. But I mean, that's a lot of people. It's a lot of people, but majority are TikTokers, they just want to chill. And they are scrolling. The ones who are actually doing content, and even again, which content we're going to do? Was it going to fall in this category or not? So when you do the cost-benefit analysis, you have to ask yourself, where is the real loss? These guys, these guys are not going to die of one week of no internet. They're not going to lose their lives. Here, left to their own devices, who knows what can happen? Whether it's security reacting to an idiot, or these guys taking over security, and we have seen many of those. One guy, security guy, doing what he thinks is right, another guy going at the security guy, all these guys left to their own devices to do what they want. Just because we want this guy to do content. Is it worth it? Cost-benefit analysis, is it worth it? That's the question you ask yourself.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:12

Well, I guess the question then becomes you know, you're a media practitioner or were. If the new media is the citizen journalist, but at any moment the state can wake up and say one of the things that you always hear about run about Uganda when they're disc they're discussing Uganda vis-a-vis Rwanda, the the one word that that is often used is freedom. We have freedom. Uganda has freedom. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:03

Which mostly you do. We do. But then what does that mean when you see fundamentally their freedom can be the the the as somebody who is a journalist major, journalism major, there's a code of ethics that we go through. It's like saying we're going to allow anybody who can do a c-section to do it, who thinks they know how to do a c-section to do it. Why? Because it is citizen doctoring. But there's a way in which journalism is supposed to be done. Now, citizen journalism does not have guidelines. Everybody does what they want when they want to, how they want to. Now, in your opinion, as somebody who has also studied this art, should that be left to that? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know who gets to pick and choose. I again, your job is to report. Journalism is about report, inform, ETC, ETC. But if you don't have the intellect to know that this is going to do more harm than good, and evidently from what I am seeing, the harm is what will get me more followers. The harm is what I'm going to promote, not even the good. I once interviewed a kid, a young uh blogger, and I asked him. Do you remember his name? No. It was on my show, the show that I have with Gaetano. And we asked the guy, he said, But you guys, why are you guys so so? Because my question to him was you'll see a very nice post. And this is the time when it was just when it was still called Twitter. And it's a very informative post by somebody who is, it's their job to post such stuff. Uganda's GDP has grown by 2.5%. Rwanda's has gone by 6%, blah, blah, blah. A sensible post. And then I asked him, and this was when it was still 140 characters, when you are limited to how much you could write. And I asked him, When you see a post like this, what goes through your mind? I maybe that guy was not even 20, but he was a blogger and a content creator. He says, When I see numbers, I don't care. I go to the comments. I said, why? Because I'm looking for Petty. Then he gave me the statement that made me understand everything of the of social media. Petty is the new cool. I want you to internalize that statement, Sunny. Then you realize the kind of people we're dealing with.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:38

You know what? Let me push back. Now, when I started this podcast uh four years ago, uh 2023. A lot of people told me that this would not work, this format would not work, that people are not able to consume intellectual long content. But here's what I've also, the majority of my audience is between 25 and 35. Right? It's like there's actually a lot of young people who want this. Who want this, who enjoy it, and I'm able to see, unlike uh radio, I'm able to see the analytics. I can see the sex, I can see where they're coming from, I can see, I can even see the devices they use. And so this idea that we keep it, it's it's a narrative that I feel we've overused and said, you know, these these young people are not able to consume good content. Maybe the maybe they they they look through the the the lies. Maybe those statistics are just statistics, but the comments are people's lived experiences in these economies.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:57

You know, so so maybe we should give young people uh a chance, a break. I'm not disputing that. And this was not it was not uh a stab at everybody. He's the one who told me that statement. I didn't beat it out of him. He's the one who told me.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:12

But I always write I try to understand what that statement fundamentally means.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:16

Petty is the new cool. In other words, the way I understood it anyway, is uh we are not going to spend too much time on the serious stuff. We have more fun with the nonsense. Now, that's not to say that a Sunny podcast is not going to be informative and therefore I will watch it. But if I watch 15 podcasts a day, and that's my new source of information, I'll watch Sunny. Why? Because I like what Sunny does and I like how he does his job. Okay? All the other 14, what are they about? And I'm not saying that that's what's happening. I'm just saying that from what we are, again, I was able to start uh with Kin, the the the this radio station, and here, and and when we were doing our research on what we want to do, and we're targeting an 18-year-old, and you do the research, and we're, and I sat down with Kin and we're brainstorming, and we want to do a nice radio station that is informative, gives these young people direction, gives them hope, gives them trajectory, gives them purpose. That's another word I realize that sometimes lacks in the young generation, purpose. And we're trying to do this together. And all our serious things, majority of it fell to deaf ears. They say, We don't bring your staff of seriousness. Where is the vibe? Bring a girl who is talking about how she dumped this guy, what, what, what, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is feedback. Now, is it is it the sample size that we picked? Is it a Kampala problem? Is it a Uganda problem? Maybe it might be a you problem.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:00

Maybe it's a me problem. Because and and what I mean by this is when people told me young people do not consume content, you need to make it maximum 20 minutes long, and they will not, you you, you're not entertaining enough. I said, you know what? I'm going to do what I believe is right. My tribe will find me. I'm not going to move. Those who I'm speaking to will consider. They will come. And they will come. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:33

Maybe you guys should have stuck to your guns. Maybe. And maybe you're right. Maybe we moved too quickly. Maybe we shifted too quickly. We pivoted too quickly. Maybe that was a problem. But you see, when you're dealing in a very commercially viable industry, and you need to make the money you have spent, and you need to make it yesterday, the numbers have to add up. I don't have the luxury of waiting for the my tribe to find me. Why? Because our OPEX is monthly. It's not stopping. It costs money to do this stuff. So at some point you have to go to where are these people? What do they want to hear? How do they want to hear it?

SPEAKER_04 1:25:08

What do we have to do to do it differently? But then if you're saying that the audience is miseducated, and then what you decide is to further miseducate. No, no, no, no. It wasn't further miseducation. No, what I mean is, like you said, like you had to pivot.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:23

Yeah, but the pivoting wasn't to change the content, it was change delivery style. So it's like you doing exactly what you're doing, but you're moving it from two hours to 45 minutes. And then you realize even 45 is high, I'll get more at 30. Again, you have not changed your content. You've not changed your direction. They've just realized attention span, smaller issue there, maybe, maybe not. But if you have the luxury of time and you say, guys, this is my cost, my pocket, relax. My tribe will find me. By all means. And they will find you. You're right. And there are people who have stuck their guns. Shakassali is an example. Everybody thought that what he was doing was going to die one million years ago. He stood the test of time in what we had all figured was boring, elitist. Nobody watches that stuff, and you'll be amazed at his viewership. Yes, it was a slightly older crowd. I don't know whether he ever got young people that listened to him. May he rest well. But my point is, there are people who decide we are going to do this, and this is our plan.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:24

Let's talk about radio, which is I I'll call it your first love. You know, you're talking about starting this new radio and the different things you had to do and the OPEX and the Capex. I look at radio and I I I wonder if it will live beyond this decade the way it is today. I look at I I I I heard a podcaster say or tweet that in Uganda today TikTok is I don't know how many million, like it's almost 90% of the Uganda population are on TikTok, Twitter, YouTube, not so much Facebook because of our issues. You know how long do you think radio has before as a medium? How long do you does it have before we say goodbye to it?

SPEAKER_05 1:27:41

In Uganda, until internet penetration goes up to over thirty percent, or no, at least fifty percent, at least fifty percent of the population can access internet, radio is going nowhere. And maybe not in the urban centers, but in the villages, it's going nowhere. It's still the major source of information. And even if I haven't looked at the data as of 2026 or 2025, but 2024, it's still corporate's biggest spend. It's still radio. And that was at 54%.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:26

But how does that how does radio survive in the one thing that I've I've always been able to do as a as someone who does stuff strictly on the internet is I have data. So I'm able to go to a corporate and say, okay, you should invest in me because this is the number. These are my numbers.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:50

Radio has numbers. No.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:52

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:52

Fake numbers.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:53

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:56

I'm telling you now. No, no, no, no. Listen, whether whether it's it's it's doctor to a certain extent or not, the people who have been doing this research and the companies, I will not say their names because they haven't paid me, have done it for years. And they continue to give the numbers that radio will still win. And I will take those numbers and say, guys, here, I'm still number one. I'm still number one in radio. Now, if you're going to spend, so here's what's happening, what I think is happening. Again, I haven't looked at the numbers post-2024 and how corporates are spending. Because at the end of the day, this is what boils down to. If corporates aren't spending, they'll shut down. Whether or not 1 million people are listening, if no one is spending money on the radio station, it will close. Radio is a medium that you do as you do other things. What do you mean? It's a passive medium. I listen to radio as I drive, I listen to radio as I wash my car, I listen to radio as I play a sport, I listen to radio as I do other things. Podcasts, TV, podcasts that are visual, like this, TV and internet, TikTok content, I must stop what I'm doing. And you consume that. And consume it. Radio is consumed passively. So it won't stop me from what I'm doing, which means I can consume it longer. I can drive from here to Umbarara, three and a half hours consuming radio if the frequency is fine. I can't do the same for content where from driving. I can do it if I'm the passenger. I can do it if I am not the one driving and I'm just here, I'm in a taxi, fine. But if I'm the one driving and I want things my way, I'll put my favorite radio station and I'll drive from here to there. I'll do it while I wash clothes, I'll do it while I cook, I'll do it while I gym. I'll do it as these things are happening, which I can't do with content that is on the screen or on TV. So because of that passive nature of radio, that's why I said the people in the villages do it in the garden. They consume their knowledge.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:07

It's interesting.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:08

They'll do it as they ride a bicycle, as they go to the farm, as they go to the market, as they go, and in there is where they'll find their information and they'll say, by the way, in this market, they run out of tomatoes. Let me take their mine.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:30

No, if handsets continue to be expensive and bundles continue to be expensive.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:35

That's why I said until internet penetration is past 50%. And I'm talking about Uganda, I'm not talking about any other country. So the the what I'm looking at, I'm seeing. But even in America where internet penetration is, you know, like at 90%, they still have radio. Barely.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:49

It's still there. No, barely.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:51

On FM.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:52

If if you see they just supplement it with online. If if you see where the sector that is swallowing up ad revenue, it's podcasts. Traditional media, like we're we're seeing uh the Washington Post recall all their foreign correspondence. The numbers don't work for that and and and print was the first one to die across the board.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:19

That one was the first one to die. Okay. No one has that time to read a newspaper. That print has struggled for the better part of a decade.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:25

So which one do you think dies after print? Radio or television?

SPEAKER_05 1:32:29

To be honest. They will die. Yeah, they will. To be honest, I honestly thought TV, because of the expenditure, was gonna die a long time ago. And because I don't live abroad, I don't have the numbers of what 15 years from today Uganda will look like because we're going to be like them. Okay? For me to know this, to answer this question, I need to know what those guys are currently doing. And what they're currently doing, yes, there's a lot of podcasts, there's a lot of online content, and that's what they're consuming is because internet is almost dirt cheap. It's like air. So it's easy to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:08

I actually think, I think in maybe a decade from now, internet will be free. It's possible.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:16

I can imagine with the starlings of this world, maybe.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:19

No, no, no. Like right now in Rwanda, uh, actually, one of the things that I realized when I tried to buy bundles here, super expensive. Yeah. Yeah. It's super the the internet here is still quite expensive here in Uganda. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:31

Yeah. But that's it's going to change, but it's it'll be slowly reducing. Not not by a country mile. Which means there'll still be a bigger majority. Because remember, the the people who we are saying, if you look at the smartphone penetration numbers, out of almost 51 million, I think we're on what 12 million of smartphones.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:56

Let the Chinese uh really do their thing. I I can imagine a time when 20,000 shillings, you will be able to buy a smartphone. I think so.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:06

Then then the data must be 3,000. Then we shall get somewhere. Then the person in the village, deep, deep, deep, will consider this conversation that you and I are having. Otherwise, we are going to continue with my source of information. And remember, even Uganda, I think our our our, let's, for example, our fintech penetration is one of the lowest in the region. FinTechs have almost failed to pick up here. Now mobile money is up and running, it was nice. But do you know how long it takes to penetrate? If you look at how quickly Rwanda did it and how quickly Safaricom did it, why? Ugandans, first of all, we love cash, money is here. Secondly, internet in their mind is full of thieves. Now you're saying my money on the internet. Let me wait for cash. You know, when eventually now we're we're good.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:58

Yeah. The way you talk, you you sound sound slightly political. And and let's maybe talk about that. Last year, when I was doing research about you as a guest, there is a headline that I was slightly taken aback. I want to stand for a member of parliament. Were you serious? You wanted to No, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:23

What I said was I'm considering. And at the time I was considering it. And the why?

SPEAKER_04 1:35:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. By the time you're starting to think about this, you're thinking there's a problem and I could potentially be a solution.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:39

And and I says a genuine lack of no is a yeah, a genuine shortage, that's let me put it that way, of very good, capable representation in our parliament. And you believe that? I genuinely do. Okay. It's a shortage. I'm not saying they're not there. I'm saying they're there. But if you look at enough of them, yeah. If you look at the ones who are actually making things happen, we can count them. Yeah. So I've always thought to myself that try and be part of the solution and not just sit on your phone and tweet and expect things to magically happen. So one morning I woke up and I said, but why don't I think about that? But I've never campaigned, I had never done anything. I just wanted to read the room. So I tweeted. I said, I'm genuinely thinking about it, because that's where I come from. I said, you know, and I know some people and we had I talked to some people, that's it, but I'd never really campaigned or anything. So I said, let me just read the room. He talked to some people about what? How about don't you think that, you know, we need some some young young person to represent you here? Who are you talking to? People in the village at home, uh a church elder, a guy who has a shop in the village, a guy who has a taxi business, a guy who owns a petrol station. I said, Don't you think that it's time? Just basic guys of the of the town. And what did they tell you? And they said, definitely. These guys have done nothing for us. But they all complain. And I figured, okay. Maybe they're buttering me up. Let's see. And I tweeted, and that's how it got to where it went. But did I think about it? Yep, I did. Then I realized it's a very What was the reaction to the tweet? Good, actually. Well, I mean, for all of I don't know how many comments, I've never deleted it, so you can go receive for yourself. But the the genuine interest of somebody who I guess they figured would bring, you know, fresh ideas, fresh mindset, better way of executing things was interesting to the people that responded. Yeah. And I actually did, I, I, I, it was, it was encouraging to know that okay, evidently the need is there. Okay, so what we'll do is maybe if I'm serious, in these five years, we shall put in the work and maybe do it again in five. Because I'm still young. Maybe we can do it. But again, again, I said, if we are serious, which we haven't decided yet. Why aren't you serious?

SPEAKER_04 1:38:24

Right? There's you've you've said that there need there's a need. Yeah. In terms of the level of member of parliament, back home, there's a need to get better services, as you found during your conversations with the population. The best I would say, I would argue that the best time is now.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:47

I wouldn't disagree. And that's why I said, if I decide that this is the direction I'll take, we have five years to make this this move a reality. Why didn't you do it last? Because I started late. I didn't I didn't do it. I didn't do it early. I put that tweet, like I think it was four months to the elections. Very little you're gonna do in four months. If I'm serious, we will start as soon as they swear in the guy, whoever is it is now, and then we start the work. Swear in the guy. Whoever the MP elect is, then we'll start the work immediately after. And that's a decision that I will have to make, you know, with everybody around, the people that matter. But so to answer your question, why am I not yet sure that this is what I want to do? Yes, there's a shortage of in of quality. Yes, the people at home need better services, yes, but maybe they're quicker. Oh, so the problem number one is the that process of running for MP is very murky and dirty. So I was asking myself, is is this is being an MP the only way I can serve my country? Maybe not. Why? Because do I really want to get my hands this dirty? And I mean it gets dirty. Away from the cost.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:09

But I I guess the question that becomes is especially, and and this is a conversation I have with like what I call the Bazay on the other side in Iranda. We say that politics is murky or it's hard and it's uncomfortable, and do I really want to do this? And sometimes they look at they look at me and say, but we literally went to war to have the rights to have this political process. All you have to do is be slightly uncomfortable. And if we if the angels don't want to go and roll in the mud, the devils will.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:51

Fact. I am not going to dispute that. That's why I said I if you ask me now, are you going to do it? I'll tell you I don't know. But these are the things that go through my head. Do I want to get this dirty? And then if the question I if the answers to those questions are such that, Marcus, get off your comfortable horse, go and get your hands dirty, and go and be a difference to your people. If that's the resounding answer that I get from myself, from my inner being, from my family, from my people who are on the ground, we will do it because getting dirty has never been the issue. It's what are we why first of all, how dirty are we getting? And secondly, is it worth it? Is the sweat worth the reward? Then you ask yourself, you're like, fine. Is there another way I can I can, you know, uh help this government or help the us get better as a people and as a leadership? Maybe. I'm sure they're there. Will I get the opportunity? Maybe not. So back to how do I help? What do I what do I do to build my country? Let's go here.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:52

No, it's it's it's a I I worry for the upcoming the political life of our nations if the best and brightest.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:08

Find it too dirty to get involved. I agree with you 100%. And and and and we have discussed this in among our peers and said, guys, look at everybody who in our in our in our child growing up, just everybody you were on campus with, everybody you were in high school with, how many people who you know right now as CEOs here are doing these excellent businessmen, completely switched on, are thinking about Uganda. Everybody's thinking about self. And then you'll be the first ones to complain that Uganda isn't working. So I agree with you. It's it's it's something that we seriously need to consider. And that's when I thought about it. I'm like, but if we don't do it, because this this age bracket that that I am at ideally is, first of all, I think almost 15 years after the president became president, the current president became president. He was f he was he became president 15 years before my current age. You know what I mean? And by then he had been in politics for 20. You know, going through all the things you're talking about for NASA, you and F. But for him, I think it was a calling. For you know, when somebody knows this is what I am going to do, no matter what. If it means going to putting my life on the line, then I'm going to do it. Which he did. But for people like that, I guess it's a calling. For us, because we have gone through the corporate world, we understand this, we understand this, we understand this. You ask yourself, do I really want to get this uncomfortable? Because I love Uganda this much, if the answer is yes, then we shall go, we're going to do it. Like I said, all hope is not lost. It's something to talk about and to discuss, I agree, but I don't think that we have lost all our age bracket to and and and it's not as if it's not as if you're afraid of politics.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:54

I mean, right now you're the president of the CEO. CEO of the Ugandan Federation of Basketball. So leadership is not outside your wheelhouse. No. Far from it. Now, this is gonna be my last question because you've given me quite a lot of your time and and I'm super appreciative. Thanks. Among the loves of your life, there's radio, there's communicating, there's storytelling, but there's basketball. Obviously. And there's no other reason that you would be taking this responsibility as CEO. So let's talk about African basketball. A few years ago, I think the last time Kigali had the Africa, uh, the basketball Africa League playoffs, the City Oilers were there. Yes. I was super excited. Uh, I always like to see a Ugandan team do well because then it just it brings a certain energy to the BK arena. I was there as well. Yeah. It was nice. Uh what do you think do you think you'll have a team this year?

SPEAKER_05 1:45:08

Highly unlikely this year. No. What I probably won't. I think the team that should have gone, I think, opted out last minute for both. It's it's not it's not it's not a cheap endeavor to get a team ready for BAL, for Basketball Africa League. You the players that are going to make a difference for you cost a pretty penny. Putting them in camp for a time of that's required, especially if you've gotten people from all over the world or all over the African continent or all over wherever, to put them together for a certain amount of time. That costs even an amount of money. So the entire process of getting a team to bar that's going to compete favorably requires a decent bank account.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:59

What does that look like in USD?

SPEAKER_05 1:46:02

Around two on like two to $300,000.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:07

$300,000. Just to get a just to get a decent team there.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:11

Now, if you want to play big, like the APRs or the Nairobi City Thunder or the Dela Salaam, people who where they've gotten now complete big bucks, we're in a million plus. Wow. And that's when now you can you can chest thump and say, now I'm going to Bal. I'm not going to represent Uganda, I'm going to compete. And now you have shopped right and you are in $2 million at your budget. Uganda's not a poor country, yeah? No, we're not, but uh we have just started putting the necessary funding into sports. And by just I mean maybe last five years.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:53

Okay. Because one of the one of the things that I've seen that you that exists here is a huge and very powerful private sector. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:03

But you see, if if if if if the way the way the way sports normally works is the BK Arena, the bank, the the Kigali, is it what's the Bank of Kigali. The Bank of Kigali was never gonna spend that kind of money until the arena was built. They were probably gonna put their money somewhere else, but they are there. The money they have. But where are they going to put their money? Now, in Uganda, basketball is like most places, considered elite sport. It's not like South Sudan where this is their bread and butter. Rwanda, it's becoming bread and butter. For most of the other African countries, the bread and butter is football. And if you go to football, you will find they have never failed to get sponsors. Yeah. Whether it's a beer company, whether it's a telco company, they actually fight for it. Why? Because they have the facilities, they have the numbers, they have definitely, once you put those two together, you'll get the corporates. Basketball, we have always had a challenge. We don't have facilities, which means we can't sell numbers. We had a small little arena called Dugogo, which barely seats a thousand people. It's you know not been completely maintained, so it has its own challenges. And if I walk into a corporate person's desk and say, please give me X amount of money for basketball, he's like, explain to me how this ROI works, boss. You have a 900-seater, the seats are broken, the toilets don't work, you may or may not have it, because other it's a multi-purpose arena, so you want to put our games there, and they tell you no, another facility, some other people have taken it, and it's your games are now moved to a not so good looking outdoor basketball court. Now the corporate guy is going to look at you and say, this doesn't adapt, bro. Yeah, so it's not, but as like I said, funding has improved. We will soon have an arena. We have the now nice Hoima arena, which we did the other day, and and I visited it, and it's world class, and we are even gonna host some international tournaments there. And these are the things that number one, improved the popularity of the sport, number two, improved corporate interest in it. Number three, increase the fan base. I guess.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:16

So I've had uh the CEO of the NBA Africa on this podcast, Claire Kamanzi, and we've talked about what the future of the Basketball Africa League looks like. And recently there was an announcement that the future of the Basketball Africa League would be less like the UFA Champions League, right? So national champions of the US go. It's going to be like the NBA. Certain teams have a franchise, certain countries or cities. So Kampala would have the Kampala cranes. Yeah. Right? And and and and And and you're in charge of also development of the game. And there's an argument that the way the Basketball Africa League, the way it works today, helps develop the game because people work very, very hard. Teams compete to become national champions. Not just to become national champions, but then to play at an African level where you're then able to get money from the Nikes and the Jordan brands and this and that.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:34

Even making it to the final is actual cash that comes to you as a team and a player and as a player.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:39

So what then happens to national leagues when because once the NBA gets involved with something, then it's just going to suck all the oxygen in the room. They will take all the sponsorship, they will take all the ad revenue from television viewers, viewerships, they will take a lot of even the political capital. They might even take all the talent. But then how many players can a team take, right? So so then what is left for a Ugandan league when no one's watching, everyone already only cares about the much funner product, the much more interesting, the much more competitive, much more exciting NBA product. What does it do to a league like yours that is not even, that is just barely keeping its head above water? And you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 1:51:50

Like it's it's a real worry. Are you worried? 100%. I actually had this conversation with Claire, I think it was about this is Baal is going for its sixth edition. I think it was like in its second. We met in Nairobi, we had a meeting, and she asked me, what's your honest take, Marcus, on this matter? And I gave her the exact same input you have said. I said, the one thing Baal had done for all nations that could make it there is was it was now our aspirational area for every league. You work hard during the league so that you win the league so that you make it to Baal. Now, and this is what I said. I said, if you remove that, you've removed the aspiration. Because my team will not make it if it's already locked down into permanent clubs. And she said, What if we did it in such a way where you know we lock down six six permanent homes? Yes, and then the other two fires can qualify. I said, that could work, but it comes back to the same thing. How do you determine which two? That's number one. Secondly, those guys don't, the guys who have secured the the base as a home, what does that do? They don't need to work as as much because they know that it's coming. But better yet, they'll come and steal your all your talent. 100%. So fast forward to maybe maybe a month ago, we had another meeting. And I looked at the this the ball that just ended in the, I think it's called Kalahari Division, where it's the qualifiers. I think there was the Nairobi team, the Tanzania team, the Al-Ali team from Libya, and I don't have many which other team. And then, first of all, the talent has drastically improved. Yeah. Pretoria hosted the last one of the the qualifiers. And I think in the in a four or five day span, in the 13-day game period, they got I think 8,000. No. Yeah. 8,000 something. Over a 13-day period, this last time, I think they were in 130k fans. Now, if you do the numbers and you say, let's assume worst case scenario, all of them is paying $5. That's real money. That's genuine cash. That you as a country or a team or whatever can take to the bank because they don't touch your gate collections. That's your money. Now, for the people that have these arenas that can host these things Rwanda, Angola, South Africa, Senegal, Morocco, they can actually milk these things to actually make money. And it becomes a real business and say, you know what? This is what we do. This arena is going to make for us money when it comes to Baal. And for that, we're going to have to invest some money. However much money that Claire is looking for, I don't know. But having looked at Pretoria's numbers this time round, my mindset is changing. I said, this thing might actually work. Of a closed league. Of closed league. I said it might actually work because South Africa isn't a basketballing nation. No. They have all the arenas in the world, but South Africa is football, rugby, running. Mention in other sports, swimming. But basketball is not something they put in their top 20 of sports they do or even do well. But to see those arenas full, game after game, imagine sporting a basketball nation like Uganda or Rwand or Angola or Morocco that actually has basketball talent where they can actually win, host and win. This could actually be worthwhile a conversation to have. Because if you had told me the Rwandan numbers were 130,000, I'd have said, eh, but Rwanda is a basketball nation. They love the game. So that's not uh it's not a benchmark we can use. But to see South Africa pull up such numbers, it's something you definitely have to think about now. So then that was my thinking.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:02

What does that what does where does that leave the Ugandan basketball? What does it where does that leave us?

SPEAKER_05 1:56:10

We have to move faster with our arena. That's what it means. If we want to be a part of this cake, that's what it that's what it boils down to. We cannot be left behind. We need to have an arena in this town. And I guarantee you, with an arena, sir, the bowl game changes for basketball in this town.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:25

Yeah, you know, you have to be careful because if you know you were if you watch the NBA, there are cities that have arenas but don't have teams because there are only so many teams. Yeah. You do what you don't want to be, you don't want to miss the boat and all of a sudden have an arena, but no franchises.

SPEAKER_05 1:56:47

No franchises, franchises, we see, first of all, funding into sports, like I said, was not there the way it's supposed to be five years ago. Now it's there. Like you would the government is putting money into you know $100 million into an arena. That means we are taking sports seriously, and basketball in particular. And this is it's a multi-purpose indoor arena, so volleyball is going to benefit, netball is going to benefit, table tennis is going to benefit, all the handball is going to benefit, basketball is also going to benefit. Now, if we say that, guys, let's put together two or three teams, four ball and call it whatever we call it. Bring your 200k, 200k, 300k, let's make a million. And we go. And the money that we make from this arena when we are hosting is ours to split. It's a worthwhile discussion. Because, like I said, 130,000 tickets each day for $5 each, hey, my friend, we're in millions. Now, if you're going to put 200,000 and you're guaranteed almost to get 2 million back, even if you get a million back or even half a million back, ROI make sense. So, like I said, the South African numbers changed my mindset a bit. It opened me up to if we have an arena, it is something definitely Uganda should consider.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:07

But only if the arena is present. And I guess the if based off of the politicians who sign the checks, Marcus, you need to get into politics.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:27

You see, then it goes back to the other thing. Food for thought, bro. Food for thought. Food for thought, for sure. But if the people who we have spoken to live up to their word, including and not limited to the people in the first family who promised us an arena, we are good to go. Now, after that, what we need to figure out is its management. And then we're home and dry. Because you don't want it to be mismanaged, then you know you have this beautiful place and your toilets that don't work. God forbid. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:02

Marcus, thank you so much for your time.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:04

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:07

You've given me. I had no idea that, you know, working as an East African was so difficult. My own personal experience has been, you know, when I come here and I, you know, I'm trying to speak to Ugandans. Then someone asked me, but what are you talking to Ugandans? Because they're our neighbors as Rondans, and we need to start talking to each other and understanding each other.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:39

And that should show you the mentality of whether or not how long it's going to take us to unite as East Africans.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:46

Yeah. It's tough.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:48

But you've proved it. You've you've done it. You've you've paid the price, and maybe what you should do is keep banging on that drum. Yeah. We need to talk to each other. We need to know each other.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:00

We need to with with with the help of podcasts like this, people like you, I think it will it will do the necessary open the minds of the people who are still blocked in us, we are randons, us we are Ugandans, us we are can you, as we are it's tough. So so so kudos to you and and and what you're trying to do. So well done. Thank you so much. You're very kind. Well done. Thanks. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it. I haven't talked like this in this long in a while. You know, all night in your days I didn't talk this much. I hope it wasn't that bad. No, it was good, though. It was a beautiful conversation. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:32

It's been amazing. Appreciate it. And that's a wrap for today's conversation. Thanks for staying with us till the very end. It really means a lot. I'd love to know what was the one moment that really stood out to you? Drop it in the comments so that we can keep the discussion going. If you want to connect with us beyond YouTube or streaming platforms, you can find us on the social media platform of your choice. And if this has sparked something for you, share it with a friend who'd love it too. Until next time, have a great week.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:08

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