Dr. Lawrence Muganga | Banyarwanda Identity, Belonging & Education in Uganda

In this episode of The Long Form Podcast, Dr. Lawrence Muganga discusses identity, belonging, education, and the future of Uganda. 

From his childhood selling rabbits to becoming Vice Chancellor of Victoria University and later being nominated as State Minister for Internal Affairs, Dr. Muganga reflects on his journey, the debate surrounding Uganda's Kinyarwanda-speaking communities, his arrest on allegations of espionage, and the politics of recognition and citizenship. 

We also explore whether Africa's education systems are preparing young people for an AI-driven future, the limits of traditional university degrees, and what success looks like in a rapidly changing world.

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Produced by LF Media 

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:43

This conversation is brought to you by Akagira Medicines, a biotech company that is majority owned by the Roman people. Akagera Medicines is not only committed to expanding access to healthcare, but also supporting conversations that inform, educate, and empower. Learn more about Akagera Medicines by scanning the QR code on your screen or by visiting their website at AkagiraMedicines.com. Uganda is a country where identity, opportunity, and power are becoming increasingly intertwined. Who belongs? Who gets recognized, and who gets left behind? At the same time, a different question is emerging, especially for young people. Is the system preparing them for the future or trapping them in the past? My guest on the Longform Podcast is Dr. Lawrence Muganga. The vice-chancellor of Victoria University, Dr. Muganga, is a Yugandan-born educator and one of the most vocal advocates for rethinking how education works in Africa. His work on authentic learning challenges the idea that degrees alone are enough in the world being reshaped by technology and artificial intelligence. But his story goes beyond education. From selling rabbits as a child to becoming a university leader to then being arrested by state security under accusations of espionage. His journey sits at the intersection of ambition, controversy, and power. So this conversation is not just about education, it's about belonging, risk, and what it means to build a future in a system that doesn't always move in your favor. Dr. Lawrence Muganga. Sunny. Welcome to the Long Form Podcast.

SPEAKER_05 2:25

Thank you very much. What a beautiful name. The Longform.

SPEAKER_06 2:30

And because it's the long form, you've promised me a not short conversation.

SPEAKER_05 2:36

Where there is the word long, of course, things are not going to. I am here for you. Two hours, three hours, until you get you drop, right?

SPEAKER_06 2:42

I will I you will drop first. Yeah. Obviously, I'm honored by the fact that you're you've taken time out of your extremely busy day. I I sat in your waiting room and uh I saw just the the hordes of people coming in and out of your office. And and the fact that you're going to spend a few hours of your day is such an honor for me. And it's it it tells me that you have a story that you really want to share. One of the things getting ready for this conversation, I had to get to know you as a person. And very often we assume that the who the person is is how that person has always been. But you haven't always been the vice-chancellor of a of a of probably one of Uganda's biggest private universities. There was a time you were a struggling young man, a struggling child using rabbits to pay school fees. To pay your own school fees.

SPEAKER_05 3:50

That's correct. Walking 10 kilometers going and 10 kilometers coming back to go to school.

SPEAKER_06 3:58

Now the fact that you're here in the heart of Kampala, a PhD from the University of Alberta, that is extremely unlikely where you came from.

SPEAKER_04 4:15

It's hard.

SPEAKER_06 4:17

So I'd like to be honest. I I like to, you know, I like to talk about systems and and how systems can either uplift or oppress this system that we live in, this Ugandan system that that that raised you that you were born into, did it help you succeed, or have you succeeded despite this very system?

SPEAKER_05 4:42

I mean, it depends on which chair you're seated on. But first of all, welcome to Uganda and uh welcome to Victoria University. It's it's an honor even you choosing to be here in Kampala specifically to have a conversation with me. It's not something I take for granted. You have a huge platform, so I am sure you could have chosen to be in Morocco, you could have chosen to be in Cairo. But you chose Kampala and Victoria University to be precise, and we are grateful. So thank you. Now it is true that and not true for me alone, but every young man, young woman who maybe dates back as far as uh late 80s, if you started going to school, late 80s, uh 1980s, schools were very, very far from people's homes. Right? Where did you live? Uh at that time I used to live in Masaka. Yeah. And this is a situation where you have parents who cherished being uh cattle keepers, right? And they are still really, really putting them together. They don't have enough. So that means their source of livelihood was milk. They couldn't sell their cows for meat. It can't happen. My parents could know it. That's blasphemy, it's not allowed. So, meaning if they don't sell milk, milk, you don't get school fees. Right? So it was hard. And so that was the fact for me, the fact for my neighbors, the fact for my faraway neighbors. But and the truth is you to be in school, you needed to pay fees. A person like me, because of such circumstances, I never experienced kindergarten or pre-primary compared to young people.

SPEAKER_06 6:50

Your family couldn't afford it.

SPEAKER_05 6:51

No, we couldn't afford that. It was a luxury, to be honest, even if, like uh, I mean, we didn't have the money. Later on, even primary school, I started in second term, my primary one.

SPEAKER_06 7:03

Let me you know you know, it's when we talk about the lack of school fees, sometimes we think this is not a possibility. Not in in how much money was do you remember how much the school fees were?

SPEAKER_05 7:18

Yeah, I remember that time we used to, uh there's a some school in Masaka in a place called uh Kavari, that is Kalung East, constituency now. There's a school, man. I went to so many schools. They they chase you here because of lack of school fees. You change it to another one because you still owe those people money. At least your parents want you to start somewhere. So before you know you have not paid, you have defaulted again, you they move you to another one. If I actually count how many schools I went to, I can actually count to 17.

SPEAKER_06 7:52

17 in primary school.

SPEAKER_05 7:53

But that's no, no, no, all my life. 17. But that time I remember we used to pay like 300 shillings.

SPEAKER_06 8:00

300 shillings in the 80s.

SPEAKER_05 8:03

1980, 88, 89, 87.

SPEAKER_06 8:06

300 shillings per term. Yes. And you don't have it. If if so that for people who don't understand what 300 shillings in the 80s were, what could 300 shillings buy?

SPEAKER_05 8:20

Right now in Uganda, there's something that a delicacy that is very, very known here in Kampare Chapati. You can't buy a chapati with 300 shillings. Even in a saturation, 300 shillings coins, they are not there. No, no, what I'm asking.

SPEAKER_06 8:37

You can't buy anything. No, because of course there was inflation. Yes. So in the 80s, with 300 shillings, was it was it a lot of money? It was a lot of money.

SPEAKER_05 8:46

That is that was fees per term. So that means a teacher, a teacher's salary was not even, it could be, it could even pay, let's say, three students, like 600, 900 shillings could pay a teacher's salary. Yeah. That means a family could have survived on 900 Ugandan shillings of the time, right?

SPEAKER_06 9:10

I'm I'm trying to figure out what the dollar equivalence would have been at the time, though.

SPEAKER_05 9:14

I can't tell. Because, you mean if you're equating it to the dollar of today.

SPEAKER_06 9:19

No, no, the dollar of then.

SPEAKER_05 9:21

Of then, honestly, the first time I I touched a dollar, I was uh I was already, I had finished campus, finished university, actually. So the the the the conversion, it's it's not something, but one thing I know for sure, it was too much. It was too much for your to the extent that my parents could needed to sell milk for almost a uh we were two two siblings, me and my sister. My parents needed to really sell for two months, right? To to accumulate 600 shillings to pay for both of us. So you can imagine.

SPEAKER_06 9:58

What what did you did?

SPEAKER_05 10:03

We had cows ranging between 50 to 76, I remember. That's that's that's yeah, yeah, it was uh it was good, but also traditionally parents uh cherished cattle. Okay my father would never tread his cow for someone to go to school. You would rather drop out of school and join him in taking care of those animals. But my mother was totally the opposite. He would even ask, can you give us one small bull? We sell it off and pay the school fees. If he he woke up on a very, very good side of his bed, he would give you that bull. Yes, and that means we would at least survive a year of not lacking fees. Okay, so maybe they could sell it uh 3,000 Ugandan shillings, 4,000 Ugandan shillings. So then we have fees for three terms.

SPEAKER_06 11:08

Were your parents uh because obviously though the name Muganga tells me something, it tells me that there's a Rwandan identity that you have.

SPEAKER_05 11:19

So what exactly happened is that my uh grandparents, uh my grandparents came to on the side of my dad, they came to Uganda in 1940, coming from uh Rwanda. So, yes, there is so there's that uh relationship. So my father has to be born somewhere in a place uh called Chinoni, somewhere, as you're heading from Barara. So, yeah, so our uh we trace our background and uh ancestry to Rwanda. Now, my mother again was in Uganda before Uganda became Uganda. Okay, in a place called Chisoro. Yes, present-day Chisoro. Yes, but that time I don't even know what it was called. So the my grandfather, my great-grandfather, then my grandfather were settled there. So she was born there. Now they carved Uganda to become now the Republic of Uganda when she's already now this side, there, this side. But they have a huge family. Of course. In Utare. Yes. In Rwanda, southern Rwanda, for those of you. Exactly in a place called Ngoma. So I have uncles, I have aunties, I have a big actually, she has more family members on the other side than she has in Chisoro. Okay, so then they also moved towards the, they met, that's how they ended up meeting in Masaka. My grandparents, and then my dad is growing up as a young man, then meets my mother. Then the rest is history.

SPEAKER_06 13:04

No, it's it's interesting because a lot of when you told me Masaka, it got me thinking about what kind of experience as a Kenyaranda speaking person did you have? Because most people would have been, you know, the refugees would have been more of the in the Ancole region. Because that's where a lot of the refugee camps were. True. The Nanchivalas and whatnot, versus where you were, which is Masaka.

SPEAKER_05 13:35

I I think uh it was uh just a matter of uh survival. They ended up uh, my parents at some point were in Imbarara. Of course, that's the Ancole region. Then they started moving to the central region, ending up in Masaka to try to make some living. They used to take care of cows for other people.

SPEAKER_06 13:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 13:57

So I I remember my father telling me a story that there was a gentleman called Cauchi. Uh, so he used to take, he was a rich man. He used to take care of his cows. Uh, at the end of the year, he gives him one cow. Yes. That's a payment. They don't pay you monthly, but they pay you annually, but in the form of a cow. So he it depends how on how many years he has really tendered those animals. If it is five years, you have five cows. But they also leave you the leverage to sell milk and pay yourself. So they moved to work for some well-to-do people in the central region, and they ended up staying there. Now, when it comes to us keeping the language.

SPEAKER_06 14:41

So you're born in that region.

SPEAKER_05 14:44

Now, it is interesting that when it comes to where I was born, by um the time I was born, my parents had their own cows. So they were no longer looking for other people's white cows. Like all Vanya Randas. So, but we didn't have innovation in terms of how do you grow better pasture? Of course, how do you look, how do you even save water, storage of water, to maybe carry out some irrigation of different fields that you have. So during hot seasons, the dry the the the we get the drought that really forces them to move to different places to look for pasture. So one time they ended up in Utaleja. Now we are headed eastern, what? Uganda. So my father goes with the animals plus a group of other people. Now, my mother, she was pregnant. With you? Yes. Now, this time me. So she ends up to go uh and be with the husband because she's about to give birth. So I get to be born inja. So they still have a home in Masaka. They have a home in Mukono. So I get to be born in Utaleja, but because they were living in a makeshift kind of existence. Yes, environment, uh, my mother couldn't really stay there. So after like two days, I end up in Mukono where they had uh another small house in a place called Seta. So even my uh registration of birth happens in Mukono. Yes. So eventually when things settled, she's stronger. She went back to Masaka in her home.

SPEAKER_06 16:32

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SPEAKER_05 19:56

Very, very, very good question. Like I said, my uh parents were not that educated when you're talking about education as we formally, but they had really serious informal education. Okay? If you had to if you have to redefine education, but my dad, his worldview was that what I am doing as your father, you should do exactly what I'm doing. That's how you're going to survive and later on thrive. Because I'm surviving, therefore, you should be well as well. If you embrace what I do and continue doing it with discipline, you'll be okay. But my mother was one of the kind, she always looked at other people. And she said, you know what? No, I don't want my children to suffer what we have suffered. All right? So, and again, keep in mind talking about a Banyar Rwanda of the time existing, it's say in central Uganda language, and then uh you are looked at even physical appearance, you are you are looked at as different. So uh we we could go to school and then so uh that Kanyar Rwanda, right? They they single you out.

SPEAKER_06 21:12

Really? Yes, even though you're born there, you speak even the language better than them, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:20

Because we had my father had a rule you're going to speak Yoruanda up to the door of the house, inside the house, Tiny Randa, and you would never speak anything that is not Tinyaranda in his house or in his presence. Yes, so by default, then we learned the language Tinyaranda. And then outside, we're so conversant, you would be surprised actually that I even studied Uganda as a subject and excelled very, very well. So, but then now my mind. Mother wanted us to also have a fighting chance in a community where you are vulnerable. Yeah, very vulnerable, and the discrimination was also visible. All right. So I want you to stick to school. I will do my best. You know, then I think she defined our fate from the word go. And then she assured our father that my children will not follow you in this, but they will go to school.

SPEAKER_06 22:31

And and for people who are trying to understand the the times, you were born in 1976. Yes. Now, for those who don't know what Uganda was like in 1976, that's in the midst of the Idi Amin regime. Different coups are happening. Right? And you probably start understanding the world when he's been removed.

SPEAKER_04 22:58

I've never known him as a president.

SPEAKER_06 23:00

You don't remember him? No, not at all. So all you probably remember is Obote.

SPEAKER_05 23:05

Yes, Obothe. Even him, my real understanding of a president was in 1985, when I was told that there is uh there is a president who has taken over power called Tito Kero or Utua, something like that. So, but again, you are in a community where you don't have TV, you don't have a radio.

SPEAKER_06 23:32

So you're just hearing things.

SPEAKER_05 23:33

No, you are studying them at school in SSD.

SPEAKER_06 23:37

But because you also, because if you were born in 19 uh seventy six, by 1983, 84, 85, you're aware of because that that's literally right in the middle of the Bush War. Almost seven years.

SPEAKER_05 23:56

Exactly. We will he we hear that they are rebels in different parts of the country.

SPEAKER_06 24:00

But then there were never there was never any hint of civil war or whatever in your community.

SPEAKER_05 24:06

I want you to understand, and and it is true for every young person of the time, or even an adult uh of the time, maybe for the adults, of course, maybe they used to tell each other things. But as a young person who is extremely impoverished as well, like I said, at home you don't have a radio. Okay? We are not going to talk about a TV. If you don't have a radio, it goes without saying that you don't have a TV. Certainly, even the if there was a TV on the village, it was for the super rich, those people who are doing well. And it was also a small black and white. My first time to see a TV, someone had a Sony, small Sonic. Like so, but and then we could ask the neighbor, uh, the kids of the neighbor, can we come and uh watch TV? But even then, news was being broadcasted once a day, 10 p.m. That's when you would hear people called like Barry Francis. Uh a legend actually made his name because of reading news as an anchor, news anchor with a beautiful voice. And so, but we were not privileged to have that. So even for me to understand the aspect of rebels, politics. Yes, to understand the aspect of rebels is when we were told that we now Tito Kero is in is in charge. So we are told that all Banya Rwanda, or people who have an ancestry of uh Rwanda or people of Rwanda, Rwanda origin, you are so you are supposed to go back to Rwanda.

SPEAKER_06 25:48

Who told you that?

SPEAKER_05 25:49

No, it was even in uh different Mayumba kumis of the time. They called local government. Yes, the equivalent of various ones. Yes. And then neighbors would like some bad-hearted neighbors started even booking our own properties, houses. Yeah, they threatened.

SPEAKER_06 26:07

That's in 85.

SPEAKER_05 26:08

Yes, 85. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if now we were almost actually, we were uh we had been given, they had given us something like uh three weeks. And you remember that? Very, very well, because our my dad, mom, sat us down and then started telling us that okay, here we are, we may leave, they may push us out of the country.

SPEAKER_06 26:32

And you don't know where to go.

SPEAKER_05 26:35

Okay, we don't know where to go, but we are going to be fine. Because people would come. You see people, they come, they quarrel with our parents. And you knew these people, these are people who were raised with whose kids we are playing with on a daily basis. I can even point at them right now, today.

SPEAKER_06 26:55

They're still alive.

SPEAKER_05 26:55

Even they are their children right now, we communicate, but you can't blame them. It was not their fault. Maybe it was their parents' kind of mindset. So now we now we went on a countdown of someone has booked cows, he will take the cows, someone will take the land, another person who takes the land, of course, will take the house. So we are on a countdown, three weeks to go. But you know, I always tell people there is always a god that that feeds birds that don't work sometimes. Three weeks, then the rebels. Now that's President Musavani's rebels, captured that place where we used to live in 85. Now at school, we saw something changing. We saw young boys riding motorcycles in full combat. Young boys, and we all say, now these are the rebels, right? So they they are they have guns, they are young, slightly older than us, but they are riding motorcycles, we admire them, we want to be like them. So they have taken over, and of course, others they have taken over that entire place, coverage, uh Kampfka, uh Chiganga Z, yeah, all that place. That's how we survive. That's how we survive. Otherwise, we had three weeks to go to a place we don't know where we are supposed to go. So, so yeah, but again, we continued. Of course, even going to school, we had given up. Why are you going to school? When you're going to be chased away anyway. So, so yeah, but anyway, going back to what you asked, fate. I don't know what my fate would have been if I didn't, or if we didn't have our mother. She was uh intentional on uh what she wanted us to become. And if we had uh failed to do that, we would have failed her, but she did her part. She she tried. Even if, like sometimes you would fail, she would fail to get fees for the term, and you sit home, and that's how the rap the rabbit story comes in. Very, very interesting story that I'm actually today very mad at my teacher, Agnes, my teacher, lady that I remember so well. So I my mother gave me some money to how old are you by this time? Like I was like eight, eight years. So I bought one rabbit. Your mother gave you, did she give you the money to buy the rabbit? To buy the rabbit. One. No, let's be honest. No, she initially she didn't give me the money. Uh, she had some money on, she had sold ghee or something. She had put it, that's the first time I stole, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then I picked 100 shillings. Shillings. I went to a gentleman called Mr. Mukasa somewhere. The son had rabbits. I bought a rabbit. One. Now, the challenge is that I don't know what a female rabbit is or what a male rabbit is. So I bought a rabbit. I just loved them. So I went in our land, up somewhere in the bush, and constructed a small unit. Yes, a hatch. So I even had to get mad and I put all of like all of who taught you how to do these things? These are this is how we used to play games. We used to construct, we used to do all sorts of games. So, but I created something small and I uh made sure it is searched with muds cannot eat my what? My rabbit. So, but but what was the plan? What was the thinking? The plan is that uh one, I have to keep it away from my my parents.

SPEAKER_06 30:39

No, no, what I mean is you've stolen money from your mom. You want to buy a rabbit. Yeah. Okay. You're eight years old.

SPEAKER_05 30:47

I want to make money and pay fees.

SPEAKER_06 30:49

So help my mother at eight years of age. Yes, you're already thinking about because what you're that's compounding.

SPEAKER_05 30:57

Yes, I yeah, I uh I I am seeing how my mother is is really exchanging words with my dad over fees for us. But I have seen that she has money, she you know, she has the money, she has the little money, yes, which is not enough for us. But I'm saying I've seen Mukasa, Mukasa, our neighbor, somewhere a little bit far away from us. The son is selling rabbits everywhere.

SPEAKER_06 31:26

And he never lacked fees. And he was the same.

SPEAKER_05 31:30

Same age, we're in the same, you know, he was like two classes ahead of him.

SPEAKER_06 31:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 31:33

So I said, okay, if I pick this money, but my mother will kill me. But she doesn't, but but I didn't know how to count money that well. It was a little bit more. So if I pick one, she will not understand. That was a very, very interesting story, actually, of that money. If I have time, I'll tell you. So I go buy the rabbit, house it in that place. Now I cut some trees that have thorns. I surround that small housing unit for it. Then I go home. Every after school I come and I get grass and come feed my rabbit. They don't know. You have to walk a very long distance up. So it's not something uh where they have a plantation of bananas or what, they don't go there. So, but at some point, my mother counted her money and it was missing. Then she said, Who took my money? All of us. Me and my sister. We said, No, no one took your money. Now she found a way of threatening us. Said, I am going, every, I'm going to put this water in the basin, I'm putting in medicine. Whoever took this money, if you wash your hands in this basin, you are going to die.

SPEAKER_06 32:49

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SPEAKER_05 34:48

I said, okay, now it's time for me to, I'm going to die, right? So I called all my friends. I had I had planted sugar canes around the house and they had grown. I hoped I can I could sell them when they are really bigger. So I told my friends, you know what? I'm going to give you sugarcans, all of you. So we harvested them and we started eating them. I know in the evening I'm going to die, but I'm not going to tell my mom that I stole your money. So evening came, and then my mother brought the water in a benzene. And before I knew, my sister was washing her hands. And then I was like, I thought she was also going to be hesitant, but she was, then that is my turn. I looked at that water, I looked on myself, said, No, you know what? I'm not going to die. Let me tell my mom the truth. So I told my mother the truth that it's me who took the money. Said, okay. What happened? Why did you steal my money? I said, Mom, I didn't. I wanted to buy a rabbit. I should, where is the rabbit? I bought it. Where is it? I told her it's up there. So take me there. So we walked and walked and walked and walked to the end of uh our land. Then I showed her where it is. I removed all those thorny trees, opened my uh unit, and I removed the rabbit. She looked at me and she looked at the rabbit. I saw her tearing up. She started crying. Oh no. So I don't know why she's crying. She told, okay, get your rabbit, let's go back home. The dogs are going to eat it from here. I said, okay. Is she going to allow me to take it at home? She said, yeah. So we moved down. That night, my rabbit slept in the house. So the following day, she brought like two men to construct for me a bigger unit to put in the rabbit. And she said, but this one cannot give birth. You need a second one. Then she gives me now another another hundred. I went and bought. Why do you think she burst into tears? I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 36:52

Up to this day. I don't know. Do you ever ask yourself that question?

SPEAKER_05 36:57

Yes, but right now that she's deceased, I I've never even never got a chance to ask her why why are you feeling that way? But you're a parent. She even passed, and I never got a chance to ask her. But I wish I had asked her. But I saw her weeping in a way like tearing up. Then she gives me more money, I buy a second rabbit. Before I know Sunny, I had 600 rabbits. 600. I used to pay my fees, my sister's fees, and some neighbors. We sell them, they take them, and now one day, but you're right, I am a parent. Like there are so many things that uh you always feel when you've you were expected to do something for your children, and you feel you fell short.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:54

Okay? It touches you, but you can't tell them that I feel disappointed in myself. Yes, that I've failed you. I am sorry. And and parents, we have that problem. Like we don't tell our children what we are going through. Even when maybe they they can hear us, they can understand us.

SPEAKER_06 38:13

But of course, I think she looked at an eight-year-old trying to fight figure out his way in life.

SPEAKER_05 38:19

And in her heart, I am assuming she was thinking, maybe we ought to do better. But look at him trying to figure out her survival. But again, I could never blame her at all. She did somehow, maybe I could have, I could blame my father in a way, to be honest, because he had the cows. Yeah. You could sell one or two every year, and we go to school. But of course, traditionally they were impressed and picked pride in having the numbers, seeing the numbers. Very early in the morning, they let them go and they see their numbers, long-horned cows, cattle. And that that makes him a man. Okay? That's the interpretation of the world for him. His worldview was see your cows. That's how you're judged by fellow men and the community. And uh yes, again, I can't blame him as well because his worldview was that.

SPEAKER_06 39:27

And that's all he knew.

SPEAKER_05 39:28

And that's what he knew. And perhaps he had also seen our grandfathers also going through, but I don't know how, because my grandfather was a refugee from Rwanda, and uh he couldn't do it. I I don't I I think he was meant to even abandon what he had to come and start from zero. Okay, so but now my 600 rabbits, my economic activity.

SPEAKER_06 39:56

600 rabbits in us what's the duration?

SPEAKER_05 40:00

Uh in in in a year and a half. Yes, in a something like a year and a half.

SPEAKER_06 40:05

By this time you're in primary what?

SPEAKER_05 40:07

Uh I'm in um around primary four. Yes. Primary four. So one fateful day, they chased kids. You know, they could come with a list, Lawrence Muganga, Sane, Peter, those who have not paid fees. All of you go home, come back, don't come back until you have cleared fees. Then now I'm good. I clear my fees now on time. So I tell teacher Agnes that, Madam Agnes, is it possible? But anyway, that's a lie because uh I I didn't I didn't say it in English. I I didn't know how to speak English that time, so I think it was Uganda. So I have a proposal. Instead of chasing these students for fees, we know some of them are not going to come back, but but as I'm speaking that in Uganda. Can we start raring rabbits here at school? And we have a project for the school for our class. I'm going to donate rabbits to start with, such that every time we sell them and pay for they have to pay their fees. Madame Magne is asking me, so do you have you have rabbits? I said, Yes, that's how I pay my fees. So are you sure? Yes. How many? I said, I told her the number. My friend. The following day, she called my parents. Uh, when I say call, I am not saying on phone. There's no phone. So she called them to come to school physically. Called the headmaster. They convinced my parents that if I continue rearing rabbits, one, I'm going to become a hooligan. Number two, I'm going to drop out of school, I'll abandon everything to do with school, and I'll be taken up by money. So the pro the recommendation is I should be stopped rearing uh rabbits and they should disband everything. And then my father said, I told you, told my mother, I told you. Because she he was not always in favor of my rabbits.

SPEAKER_06 42:26

But then, okay, help me understand. So after doing all of this, where would the fees come from? What was their plan?

SPEAKER_05 42:35

For them, they now the teachers don't care about fees. They care about me dropping out of school just because I am obsessed with money and that rabbits will take my time. I'll not concentrate on uh studies, and uh, and that is the biggest problem we have in the education system. So, so my parents listened to them like as if they were hearing Bible truth. Going back home, they told me from today onwards, no more rabbits. And by tomorrow, make sure no single rabbit is here. Son, I lost everything. I gave them out for free because we don't eat, uh we don't eat rabbits. So every neighbor, two rabbits, three rabbits, anyone who is passing by, rabbits for free. So I lost my project and we went back to our zero to struggle with fees, you know. So, but by God's grace, we switched through. But uh what does that mean? Now you see the struggle. Now my my parents are going are struggling with fees, so they send me to my sister in Masaka Town.

SPEAKER_06 43:52

But I can help with fees now. But what I want to understand is the psychology that I like to understand the psychology of. Decision making. Because that was a decision, right? So for a year and a half, for the first four years of your primary education, you were at risk. No. At risk of actual dropping out. True. Now, for a year and a half. Even starting, I started late when others had already started. So for a year and a half, all of a sudden, the crisis of school fees is taken care of, not only for you, but also for your sister, but also for your neighbors. All of a sudden, your mom has more disposable income because now she doesn't have to worry about you. Your father also is able to sell his milk and keep the money, maybe use it for a radio or buying a piece of land or buying more cattle. What do you think drove their decision making to say this school teacher is telling us how we should raise our child and we and how we should allow us to pay his tuition? And then they actually listened. Was it because of the way society looks at teachers as, you know, almost like you said, the voice of God? Or were they scared? Were they still vulnerable? Were they worried that, you know what, if we don't listen to these people, maybe the threat that we had in 1985 of them waking up and saying, leave our community.

SPEAKER_05 45:47

So uh you really say it very, very well. It was very counterproductive in hindsight, all the time. I shouldn't even say in hindsight, even at that moment in time, you asked me, because I really cried for almost a whole day for my rabbits. But I want you to appreciate the fact that traditionally teachers were opinion leaders, looked at as opinion leaders. They are looked at as the most educated people in communities or in society. And when it comes to any guidance or advice that is education related, a teacher was being listened to by everyone. So uh in this situation, my teacher had given them advice that is going to define my future. Because now they are seeing this person as a person who models the future of every young person. And now he's she's here saying that now your child has gone astray. This is the beginning of him to fail and become everything that you never wanted him to become.

SPEAKER_06 47:10

All because you wanted to ensure that your classmates stayed in school. Correct.

SPEAKER_05 47:16

You know, now I lost my project. So and since but I also thank God for one thing, Sunny, that that moment has shaped the kind of educator I am today. Because growing up, I really tried to educate myself in such a way that whatever career I pursue, I must end up an educator. And I cannot be like my teacher. That I will advocate, I will push for an education system that whose teaching mirrors real life, whose learning or education that happens in the classroom must address the problems we meet in our daily lives and in the community. So so, yes, it happened, but uh how do you get out of that mess? Because right now it has happened. I've lost my uh livelihood, or even the family's uh livelihood. So the burden now is shifted to my sister, that's my uh firstborn, uh my my parents' firstborn, who was uh married and living in Masaka in town. Now they are the ones doing well in town. Doing well, of course, compared to their parents. Where you were, yes. So and so they say they how they talked, of course, and they ended up they ended up shipping me to Masaka Town. Uh they my sister looks for a school so in Masaka Town. So her and the husband started paying for my fees because my parents were now unable to pay for my fees.

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SPEAKER_05 50:47

So yeah, and then even that school was a very, very that school is called Masaka Baptist School. I don't know if it's still there, primary school. While I was there, they insisted that everyone must speak English. And I was struggling to speak the language. So one day they used to give cards. So if they give you, Sunday, you are the class monitor, you find someone who is speaking vernacular, they call it. That is uh Luganda. That's the only language that everyone knew in that school community. So if you you, the class monitor find me speaking vernatula, you have you give me the card. So I also find someone, I give them the card. At the end of the classes, around like three, four, we assemble. Whoever touched it, you have to be beaten by five teachers.

SPEAKER_06 51:45

Jesus.

SPEAKER_05 51:46

Five teachers, five, claims you five, five, five, five, twenty five. So you get out, you go home. So there is, I didn't see any child, and now we're talking about primary five. I didn't see any child who even endured the entire 25. So the first time I tried, I endured like five. Then I ran out of the building. So it it came to a time when I have like uh a date of like 97 cane's 97. So they introduced a bone. Now a penelong bone, I don't know why they used to get this bone. So they put a string in it. So they find you speaking in Uganda, they give you a bone. So you have to wear it. So one time I said it's too much. So when one young boy found me playing uh football and uh the way we are playing, we are talking freely, and so now you can't have a bone. So I honestly got the bone, went back to the toilet and threw it in the toilet and went to class, picked my books and went home. Now, when I went home, I didn't tell them why I have come home. Now, this time, if you add up the punishment of the day plus the 97. Yes, I have a hand, I have around like 120 something a date. So I said, no, this is not. So I told my sister I'm sick. So it all these things you can understand how education was at the time. So I told her I'm sick. Uh so I she even gave me medicine. Just imagine taking medicine when you are okay, but you don't want to go to school. Second day I'm still sick, third day I'm still sick. Then she said, but aren't you feeling better? I said, No. But I don't know how to overcome the situation. I can't go back to face those teachers to beat me. Just imagine, ask someone to lie down and you beat them 120 times. And that was true for so many kids. So one evening, the teacher, one teacher was coming uh from school, passed by home, to inquire why I'm no longer coming to school. So my uh my sister tells him that he has been sick. Then my teacher said, No, he's not sick. He's actually afraid of ABCD. But let him come back, we shall reduce. Can you imagine? You're even beginning how much you will beat the child and how much you will not. I told my sister, you know, take me back to my parents. I'm not going to study here. I insisted and she insisted. I'm sorry, I said no. So until she agreed with me. Now my parents had moved from that part of Masaka to another part of Masaka called Bukoto East. Now, constituency. So now there, as I was going to P6, there was only one. No, that school that was closer to us had only five classes, primary one to primary five. So no, and I'm going to primary six. So my mother talks to the teacher, Mr. Chuewa, Francis. Mr. Chuewa accepts to teach me alone in primary six. Alone. So I the person you're talking to here, Lawrence Muganga. I started P6 alone. I was the entire class in one class with one teacher teaching me all subjects. Why? Because there were no schools closer to us. The closest school was uh 10 kilometers away. So that is you walk if you have to walk 20, 10 and 10, 20. So uh Francis taught me, but when it comes to doing exams, timely exams, he could put me on his bicycle. He rides all the way to that school. And I sit exams with the entire class. So, and by the way, I used to, you know, you know the rank method of uh who is number one, number two, number three, number ten. I used to actually end up number three in a school where I was not taught, I was taught by one teacher, every subject in a different school. But when I sit exams, on their report card, I end up number three all the time for three terms. But trouble came when I was promoted to go to primary seven. Now, Mr. Chueva cannot handle primary seven and doesn't have a center to sit exams. So he said, told my mother that you know what, this is it. The only option he has is to go to Kajuna primary school again in Masaka. And as the 10 kilometers going, 10 kilometers coming back. My mother had no choice, took me there, registered me there. But the fourth for that whole year we started almost together. Why with my mom? Why she could wake up at 3:30 a.m. to escort me all the way to the trading center where I will meet other kids. Then we walk together for a whole year. Every morning I was going to school and walk, she walks with me for almost 30 minutes to 40 minutes. And then she goes back home. Then I pick up other fellow students, we walk together too to school.

SPEAKER_06 57:50

So that's a lot of walking.

SPEAKER_05 57:52

Yeah. 20 kilometers a day, son. 20 kilometers today. You when I tell this to my kids, they think some there's one child. My daughter told me, but dad, why do you is that another Nigerian movie watched? So they don't see it as real.

SPEAKER_06 58:15

I I I but you have to understand why. I mean, think about what you you've literally told me. In a space of about 15 minutes or so, you've told me how you stole your mom's money, reared rabbits, got them to 300, paid your school fees, had to sell your rabbits, went to a new school, or was all you owed 200 canes, then you left that school, then you went to another school that you had to walk 20. I mean, when you think about the experiences that a certain generation of people, right? You're you're close to your one year to 50. When you think about the gen what they've had to go through, it does not seem human. It seems the points of cruelty seem some subhuman. The abilities of young men and young women, because it wasn't just men, it was exactly even young and even young girls.

SPEAKER_05 59:21

And even young girls, it was worse.

SPEAKER_06 59:24

You you think about those things, and it doesn't seem possible in the world that we live in today. It seems the word would be child abuse.

SPEAKER_04 59:35

It was worse, uh indeed.

SPEAKER_05 59:37

That's uh it's it's torture.

SPEAKER_06 59:40

Just to get an education, just to get somewhere in life.

SPEAKER_05 59:45

That's why, like uh every time you're you're telling this to a Gen Z or a Gen Alpha child, that that story qualifies for a good movie. An Oscar, uh Oscar-winning, whatever movie, actually, because I don't see a human being really being that resilient, being that uh enduring. Just imagine the girls I used to go to school with, when it comes to the rainy seasons, we used to cross a particular a certain river, it overfloods. And for us, we could go sit on some logs of uh wood, okay? And you tie your books on your head, everything, and then you sit on this wood, there's no boat, and you go across. It's just a short distance. The girls couldn't. So they wait until water goes down. You understand? So it is it is torment, like it, it's torture. Like sometimes you remember it, but you also pick it from there and say, it made me strong. As growing up right now, and you remember such a story, and it's not just me. There are millions of young people in this country that went through the same. But every time you remember that, there is one thing you really feel comfortable about, is that there is not such a big problem that you can't overcome.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:14

I guess the the question that I have to ask, and that's what I really, when I first created this question, it was I wanted to understand the systems. What I'm hearing is that fundamentally there was no system. The system was your own discipline, your system was your own parents' ability to somehow make things work. Correct. The system was your teacher putting you on a bicycle and and and and and teaching you himself, and then himself without any extra payment. It was a system that was almost and even his fees, you can add on this.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:58

His fees, sometimes the payment would delay because your parents don't have it. And and still do it.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:03

Yes. So it was there was no larger system. It was about either your family or your community just trying to raise you up. When was the very first time where all of a sudden the state started now raising you up? Because now you've talked about, okay, my family, my family, my family, my community. When does the state now say, when was the very first time that the state said, Lawrence Muganga, let me help you become the PhD that we are now sitting with today?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:39

Now you have hustled through that those conditions all the way to somehow I started also playing soccer in secondary football. And I started receiving scholarships because I was a good uh football player. Scholarships from the yes, from the school. Then actually I passed, went to uh senior five, St. Charles Rwanga Kasas again in Masaka. Now, senior six, you see the national exam. Yes. Uganda Advanced Certificate of Education, the final exam. A level. A level. I was lucky. I passed to be in the top 2,000 students at government sponsors.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:24

To Makerere.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:26

So I was now admitted uh in Makerere on government sponsorship. And um things became better.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:34

That's the very first time now the government.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:36

Government now is seen. So you have suffered enough. Okay. You have spent sleepless nights uh during SNEA 6, and you are within the top 2,000 that government sponsors. So now government sponsors you and they even pay us. They used to pay us like uh what year was this? 1998. So I enter the university in 1998, August, September. So now they are also paying us like uh every semester they are paying us like 410,000.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:07

That's like 400 those days, huh? I think so. That was a lot of money.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:11

That was a lot of money. I mean, we were doing well. I could even uh come, I give my mother some money, she buys whatever she wants, and so yeah, so government stepped in, I finished a bachelor's degree in education. Uh no, I wanted to do education. So, but remember, uh I come in, I've passed really well, but I wanted to do law. I didn't get the if I was a girl at that point in time, they would have given you one extra point. Yes, I could be in, I would have gone into law. So the next thing they gave me was mass communication to become like a generalist. Somehow I said, no, I don't want to be a journalist. I don't want to be you. Yeah, I don't that's why I don't know long form, what it means. So so I wanted to now go and become a teacher because even then I could part time into teaching, even in senior six back, so in two different secondary schools.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:12

So can I ask you about that?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:16

So I remember by the time you had gone into university, I was in senior four. And I remember when we'd think about because obviously you were studying what they call arts. Yeah, arts. True. So so usually when we thought about you know, choice one, choice two, choice three, choice one was always law.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:38

Yeah, depends.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:39

Some people want it most of the time, people loved also mass communication, mass. But then so it was law, mass com, and then you'd go into MV, you know, business administration, economics, and this. By the time someone would want to become to study education, in fact, for most people. Who they did not think education was it was for failures for people who had failed to go to academy, yeah, to go to NTCs, then you'd go to yes, the uh what we call the TTCs, the teacher training colleges. You had obviously done well enough to have choices. Maybe you did not have your first choice, but you could have had your second. But you chose education.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:26

Now, you know why I chose education? Senior five, six, I had impressive teachers. They were really nice. Mr. Dumbaluk was amazing. The gentleman would come to our class without any paper. And he would dictate everything. And we are writing. You can imagine that kind of thinking. Others would, for example, others would write on the on the block. But he had all his content in his head. I remember studying divinity, divinity, economics, history, and Luganda. You had to stroke something to get really, really an advantage of getting on government sponsorship.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:08

Because if the three are no A's everywhere, then you're in problems.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:13

So but if you had a force, then it could maybe you would get an A and then you balance things out. So, but Mr. Doomba was really good and uh he made me love education more than even the rabbits did. Because I wanted, I always wanted to be teach like this guy. But even um when we were still in senior six, we used to do what we call seminars in Uganda here. Schools go and gather with other schools and you discuss for other students. So I I I developed love for education. So now when I join Makerere and I'm not given my first priority choice, second choice now I don't want it. So the best case scenario you have is education. So when now you apply for change of course from the upper one to the lower one. So I applied. They gave me the change of course, but the subjects for me to teach became a problem. They gave me history and Uganda. I said, no, I don't want to become a Ruganda teacher. I did Uganda to help me pass. Just because I performed well in it does not necessarily mean I want to become a Ruganda teacher. So I went to Professor Jesse Sekama, who was the dean of education. I pleaded with him. The gentleman was also very straight, was also a very good Uganda teacher somehow. He said Uganda needs many Ruganda teachers. So we are not going to change you from education as teaching subjects being history and Uganda. Okay, when he refused, I made another decision. I dropped out of education. I went for the Bachelor of Sciences, majoring in economics. Pure economics, economics and rural economy. So that's what I studied. Now lower than even education. Okay. But why? Because I knew I would come back as a teacher. Now I know those subjects now. Economics. Because I had asked him to change me from the combination, make it history economics. He couldn't. So I dropped to BSS economics. So I studied that. So I graduated as an economist. Again, who goes back to the classroom to teach without an education degree?

SPEAKER_06 1:09:43

Yeah. How do you end up? Because your story ends up with you in North America, in Alberta. The massacre boy became Canadian. You know, when you talk about miracles of life.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:15

There should be so many miracle children in Uganda that no child should go through what I went through when it comes to education. But of course, it's not a job I can do alone. I can only talk, I can only guide. Hopefully, one day we shall all reach the promised land. I don't know when.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:35

So end up in Canada. Obviously, we're having this conversation, not in Canada. So you left. You left the promised land. Because for most most Africans, yeah? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:49

You don't know how many people who come to me wanting me to take them to Canada.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:53

People young African men, because they're mostly young, are dying in boats in the sea to get to that place. You have not only got into that place, you have a good job, and you're settled, you have citizenship, you have a family. How does a Canadian associate professor end up being here at Victoria University? And why?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:34

No, it's it's interesting, and uh you you could uh you can understand because I'm sure you know Canada very well, and I I agree it's a good country and it gives people a second chance to live. In my situation, the journey we have just discussed, if you look at what I went through, there is no child who can go through that in Canada. No one because education is a public good, healthcare is a public good. So, meaning you can only fail yourself to go to school, but you can't worry about peace. So it's it's it's a promised land for many. But I also believe, and that is my uh calling right now, to say that whatever Canada or any developed world has, we can bring it to Uganda, we can make Uganda the Canada, the America, the we we may not catch up, but we can live better. So now coming to why did I come back? That should also form that basis. So I am in Canada, I've pursued uh education to the Apex, for example, because like uh from Macareri, I also did another master's degree in Macareri, in again as an economist in economic policy management. So then I went to the University of Alberta, I pursued a master's in education. I did a PhD in education, then enrolled as an assistant professor to now associate. I uh before actually that I also go to Harvard and do a postdoctorate in Harvard. So I come back, then I start teaching, and my life is there. So one day I had uh published one of my books, I think the second, and this book caught at the attention of the world. You can't make fish climb trees. That's the title. So this book is talking about education, and the stories I have just told you, you'll find them in that book as well. To see how an African child and the education molded for them, how it looks like and how they look like and how they struggle. But then how do we change education for the African child to make it meaningful for everyone, such that they are in their driving seats to go where they are supposed to go, and the system is hand-holding them going to achieve what they want to become. So it became really a methodology that every university wanted to adopt. So I received so many calls as a speaker in different countries. I Canada itself, US, Finland, Sweden, Singapore. The furthest I went and I didn't love the experience was Argentina because I could not speak to anyone. They speak a certain language and uh Spanish. Really, really like it was tough for me and their culture. It's okay, you can call them racist. I didn't want to say that so you remain indoors in a hotel and no one wants to associate with you. It's like you are your caste, actually. I couldn't really wait to get out of that country. So, but even I I don't know what would take me to that country, so I don't know. So, but that book made me move to different places. So one day I am in one of the conferences as I'm in the uh in the conference that is uh in uh New York, so I am talking to so many people as I'm uh talking to so many. So meanwhile, I've had the same organizers of the conference. We organized one in Toronto, then New York, then I'm also having a show like this. Uh, in um uh you remember the legendary like uh journalist uh Chaka Sali?

SPEAKER_06 1:16:20

Washington DC.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:22

Yeah, I also end up in Washington for his show voice on the Voice of America. He had that show at the Street Talk Africa. Street Talk Africa, thank you very much. So I am there, so then I go for that uh conference. So while I am at that conference, I really, really in my keynote, I talk about Uganda, where I was born. Same story we have, like same conversation we have had. So finish my uh keynote. Before I know, someone wants to speak to me. And this person was the ambassador of Uganda to the United States. So they are they tell me, you know what? These things you're talking about are great. My vice president and the speaker, right, honorable speaker, they would love to speak to you. I said, sure, no problem.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:09

And this is when?

SPEAKER_05 1:17:10

Uh, that is 2019. Yes, 2019 around April. Yeah. So we go, we meet, we sit in a hotel, we talk.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:20

With who who was this? Was it uh Honorable Edward Second?

SPEAKER_05 1:17:24

Edward Secondie, Vice President, yeah, uh His Excellency Edward uh secondy, as the vice president, and the Vice Honorable Speaker, Rebecca Kadaga. Okay, yes. And there was another gentleman actually who made me go to that uh conference, Ronnie Mayanja. Yes. So I asked Ronnie Mayanja, do you know them very well? Say, oh yeah, sure. Okay. So I sit down with them and they say, Hey, oh, there's also another gentleman there called um Dr. Hilare Musoke. He's right now a senior presidential advisor on skiing here in Uganda. So they ask me, why don't you come back and help the first lady on the curriculum on these education matters? Uh what you're talking about, to infuse it in our curriculum. Then I say, if you invite me, I'll come back. I'll come. Say, I think time passed, July I received an invitation. So I uh I tell them I'll come in December. So December came. Uh before I know I december 2020 December 2019. Yes. So I sit in a hotel in Serena for almost two weeks. I didn't meet uh the minister. So I think after two weeks we met. And then I talked about uh what they asked me to talk about. Before I know everything else is history, then we worked together and COVID hit. Now I'm locked down here in Uganda.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:05

And now, for those who maybe don't know you, you have a family back in Canada. In Canada.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:09

Who are now my kids, now they are they are there and I'm locked back. So but I'm supposed to go back. So but again, COVID became a problem. I can't get on a plane because even every sick person you could meet has used a particular flight. So I said, no, I can't take COVID to my family. So, but one time, I think the Canadian government started uh chartering planes for all citizens, kind of uh stuck in different kind countries. So meanwhile, we are in, we we were asked to register with the consulates or the high commissions closer to us. We have all registered. So, but they were nice. They also gave us some some facilitation to stay wherever we are, and we never lacked anything. But one thing they forgot is that this is home for me. I was at home. So I stayed, waiting for COVID to really subsidize, a little bit reduce. In the process, I used to interact with so many people. So someone, I think, talked with the the current owners of Victoria University.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:24

Who are the current owners?

SPEAKER_05 1:20:26

Uh, Dr. Sudiru Pareria and family. So they approached me. We talked, and I tell them, listen, I love to help you. But what was wrong? The the university was struggling, honestly. Was struggling. I think at the time, 2020, it had uh about 231 students. And they, because of COVID, they have also dropped to around 143. So it was really painful, and uh they were investing in a lot and get gaining nothing out of it. So I reviewed what could be the problem, and I told them, you know what, I've created for you a change plan. Implement these things maybe better. Then they asked me, like, but why can't you help us implement this change change plan? I said, okay, to be honest, I would love to help, but I'm a professor of another university. So which job I don't want to lose? So they said, but we can have an understanding. I said, okay, yes, even if I chose to stay, this, the salary I am paid there. It's not that you don't have money, but the salary structure of Uganda, you can't pay me this money because of the salary structuring. They say, no, let's have a conversation. Then I told them, look, as a professor or a staff of another university, I need to apply for sabbatical leave to even have this conversation. But if I get it, then we can have a good conversation. So I talked to my uh supervisors, and now I got a sabbatical leave of say two years. So we had a conversation.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:14

That's in 2020.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:15

Yes, 2020. So I joined this place 2020 October 2nd.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:20

So Well, obviously now we're in 2026. So what happened with your sabbatical?

SPEAKER_05 1:22:27

You have actually an opportunity to increase it to eight years, as long as they are not if it is without pay. But what you do, you have to always credit the university where you're coming from. You see, I keep on talking about the University of Alberta. They did me a lot of good, so all the time. So, but then it's my choice one day to go back, or but now this is my sixth year. So if I have to make a make my uh mind up to return, I still have two years, you know, but of which I am not about to return. So I am back to Uganda, I am happy, I am settled.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:13

How many students do you have now? Because when you you first came, there were less than 300. Yes. Has has the the Seduya family's investment in you has it paid dividends?

SPEAKER_04 1:23:26

Maybe I'll let I'll bring them to the long form and yes, uh, but uh how's the student body?

SPEAKER_05 1:23:33

Yeah, uh we've been fortunate, to be honest, and working with so many incredible staff that I have. We have brought in staff from different uh corners of the world, and the kind of education model we have introduced in this university has been really, really amazing. And it has brought us, I've never seen a university that grows the way we have grown in this country.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:57

Talk about your growth.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:58

Now, the number today we stand at 12,500.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:03

From from less than 3,000. From 300, from less than 300, 231 to 1,200.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:11

And we hope that by uh end of uh this month we are likely to hit uh 14,000. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:20

Yeah, congratulations. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:22

You know, because every so often you have to give uh someone their flowers before the yeah, before they leave this reward, right? Yeah, so we've we've been fortunate. Like uh in five years, or I'll be six years here in October. But in six years, if we just imagine if we have 14,000 students, there is no one who does that in the history of this country. So we've just been fortunate that uh all our interventions, approaches, the methodologies we use, the service we are offering to the country. It is one that people have received with open arms. Not only Uganda, we receive students from uh almost 51 countries. You'll be surprised that I have 170 students from the UK. 17 students from Canada that I went and met, because they were a few, 17. So we they we interacted one day when I was in Toronto, we organized, they all came to Toronto, 17. So it's we have students from Qatar, we have students from Dubai, we have students from Solomon Islands. I was surprised. Solomon Islands, I have uh students from Benin. It's interesting. 51 countries from Rwanda, a lot.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:41

Yes. Let's talk about, you know, first of all, success. Yes. So you would be what they what you've done here could be defined as success. But success has a price very often that people do not know. Now, when I was getting to know you, and we were talking earlier, there was you know, when in in economics opportunity cost, yeah. The choice to be here, the choice to try to uplift the Ugandan education system, it has taken a personal toll on you.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:21

Big time. Big time, I'll tell you, you put it very well. If you asked me, if someone uh really approached me for advice today, uh I I don't think I would uh ask them to go through what I went through. I would ask them to make their own call because one sonny, I'm a father. Okay, it was the first time in my life to be away from my children now five five, six years I have become a professional WhatsApp parent or Facebook Messenger parent. Contrary to what it used to be that every evening I come back home and I really talk to my children and I understand them, I know what makes them happy, I know what they are lacking, they tell me stories of what happened at school, I what their challenges are, and I tell them, they ask me, Dad, today you don't look fine, what's going on? And I explain that kind of like uh I drive them to music classes, to foot soccer classes, to swimming, like different rec centers, recreation centers. All that I don't do. And I don't know how much damage it has inflicted on my children. So you yes, on one side I am proud for the transformation that we have introduced to this country of ours, Uganda. And I hope and pray that we achieve an education system, be it from the grassroots that is pre-primary, to the topmost layer of education, which is university. I am sure all policy recommendations, all initiatives, everything we have shared and we have had conversations about with different stakeholders, if government puts it into consideration, we'll develop the best education system. And I am hopeful that that will be achieved, especially in this forthcoming uh government by President Musavan. We can achieve it. But also on a personal level, I lost a marriage. Yeah, I lost a marriage. I uh distant from my children, despite the fact that I try my level best to meet them, to be with them, but it's it's not good enough, right? So yeah, it's it's a lot of sacrifice, it's selflessness, it's basically saying that uh, okay, yes, I am Lawrence Muganga, I have a family, but also my life can be used to serve many more people than myself and my family. So that's that's the positive I have picked. If I can, through the little I can do, if we can change the kind of education provided in this country, I'll die a happy man. If we can achieve the education system like that that makes the developed world what it is, I'll say it is worth it. I think if you You think so. Yeah, I mean, uh you pick your battles very well, okay? So, and in a war, you're going to fight so many battles, but some you are going to accept to lose them for you to win the war. So I am sure I have done my best to educate my children. I try to remain very closer to them. It is painful that I lost a marriage, but the fruits of seeing what I have seen in the education system right now, the changes I see every day, and what we have done to push for them to happen, it is really assuring.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:04

If you could have known what the future held for you back in in 2000, in 2019. 2019, actually, not 2020, actually 2019. If you could say, you know what, by taking this invitation to come to Uganda to meet the first lady and and then who also happens to be the Minister of Education, and know that seven years from this point, my sons will not know me the way I want to know them. I will not know my daughters the way I want to know them. My life partner who we had promised till death to us part, will choose ways. Would you have made the same decision?

SPEAKER_05 1:32:05

I don't think so. If uh if you have someone had had broken it down for me like that, it is scary. But even then, you have uh as as people, we have aspirations and visions. One of my aspirations is to also, like I told you, growing up, I lost what could have been maybe a potential business, my rabbits. Maybe who knows? From rabbits, I would have gone to something else. And maybe you would be talking to a billionaire in dollars today. But I vowed to change that in the education of this country, to make education more meaningful, to make education more impactful, to make sure that education affects our brain, our hearts, and our hands. In other words, what I study, I should be able to use it to do something. And I should be doing something tangible. So that is something I want to really be remembered for. That at least I contributed something, even if it is this small, to change education from the worst that it was to the as how the colonial systems left it for us to where we have an education system we have created for ourselves that works for us. Now, that was my visioning and aspiration. But also, if someone told you those things you have, the way you have how they happened to me, uh, it is breathtaking. It it it takes courage to make that choice. I think maybe I wouldn't have made that choice. Trust me. Uh, there is no amount of money, there is no amount of uh power. Power or anything that is going to supersede your family or your children. But uh I've also seen uh uh very formidable men, I think uh that we will we can never equate ourselves to. Case in the point here is Nelson Mandela, right? The guy spends how many years? Almost three almost three decades in prison. And then he comes back and then he becomes president for one term, and then he has an opportunity to revenge and he doesn't revenge. So he did not live for himself, he lived for his generation and to try to make sure he corrects things. I don't want to equate myself to that. Whatever I've gone through, it's not that. But again, if you ask me if I would have made a choice like that, I don't think I would have made that choice. But at this point in time, I try to balance the two to make sure that that's why I called myself now a professional WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger parent to make sure that I try to know every day how is my child doing? What is disturbing them? How can I be helpful? Can we do homework together if you have homework? But of course, that is virtual.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:06

Okay, I can't put them in the car and we drive to a recreation center and I see them swimming. Unless I, when I have my uh leave and I say for a month, I am going to spend it with them, see them, how are they doing? But they have missed you for the last four months or three months, and you've missed them. So, and you can't get that back.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:27

Let's talk about, you know, you think about the level of sacrifice that you've made to be here, to be in this very building. The costs that have been paid in this very building a few years ago, you were arrested, accused of espionage and an illegal stay, despite the fact that you held Ugandan identification, you were invited into the country. Correct. And right they they found you where you were, here, back back in Canada. They found you in Canada, living your life, they asked you to come and help us build something amazing for the people of Uganda. You do so. But despite all that, despite the fact that you were born in Massachusetts, despite the fact that your parents were born in Uganda, you were accused of being of a spy, a spy and an illegal state. You see, one of the things is when you when you are accused of being a spy, you know a spy cannot be a national of that country. You spy on that country. That means for that moment in time, you had never been a Ugandan. This was not your country, you were here to cause harm to your country. What that moment, that that that that incident, what did that moment teach you about belonging in Uganda?

SPEAKER_05 1:37:30

Asana, I will tell you. There's a saying that I always tell people that uh problems are like salt. I don't know if there are people who have not tested salt in the world. So that means everyone will test, will they have their own test of a particular problem? So I appreciated the fact that that was my problem now. I can guarantee you I was picked up here, blindfolded. I was taken somewhere.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:02

Picked by who?

SPEAKER_05 1:38:04

I didn't know at that point in time. Now I'm telling you, in real time. So you in your office? Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:10

They pick people pick me up, they blindfold me. So I've been to your office, first of all, right? So so for people who've never been to Victoria University, let me explain what it is to be. So you have to, when you walk into this building, there's there are gods outside. And the guards who are chimery given to me by President Mouse.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:32

So then you have to go, and then you go, you press the first floor. Then you have to wait for an elevator, goes up, then you go, you turn, get to your office, but you can't just enter your office. There's where the waiting room waiting room. Where there's a young lady there. And then you're probably you've told me that you come to work usually at 9:30 and you're working up to midnight, one o'clock.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:59

One o'clock AM, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:00

So walk me through that. All of a sudden you're working as usual.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:06

Yeah, so it was uh September 2nd, 2021. Morning. So they go is going the going is normal, the day is normal, meeting people, different people. So then somehow these people came not in uniform, like in normal plain clothes like you and me, how to dress, pretending to be students as well, who want maybe particular vacancies to study here, and they also want to meet different people, including myself. So they grant them appointments, they come up. So then somehow they caused a small scuffle with my uh personal assistant. I come out of office.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:59

That lady.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:00

No, there was a gentleman. He's now in Canada, he now lives in Canada, uh, Hubbard. So I come out to ask, what's going on? Uh no, no, actually past went to the washroom. So, like people are talking, but not in really nice terms. But anyway, I knew they sort themselves out. So I passed them. I go to the washroom. Coming back, that's when they say, no, actually, we are you're not going back to office. How many people are these? They are like five, all armed now. They pull out their guns. Oh, yeah. Small guns. Okay. Now I had security. The bodyguard I had was a lady. Uh, one of them was a lady. Others actually, and I'm glad, and I really, really am thankful to God that that time the other one, the two were not around. They had some family issues and had given them a pass to go. So there was only a lady, Barbara.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:01

Now when you say personal guard, was it uh uh uh uh actual police?

SPEAKER_05 1:41:06

Yeah, counter-terrorism police. Okay, yeah, it's the one that deploys uh the gives us uh security. So, but I had only one, the girl. Now, as they stopped me from entering, she engaged them. Very, very brave young woman. Then they drew guns against her, but I credit her for one thing that despite all that kind of pressure, being attacked by uh four, five men with gun, she did not touch her gun. No, she remained professional, being uh kind of like uh they're so aggressive with her, but she did not draw her gun. So I I asked them, gentlemen, what's going on? So no, we are here to pick you. He said, Okay, can you put back your guns? Because this is a university, a public place, this altercation you're causing here, you can shoot anyone.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:14

But are you speaking like this?

SPEAKER_05 1:42:15

Like this, standing forcing them.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:18

Then I asked them, do they at least identify themselves?

SPEAKER_05 1:42:21

No, they didn't. Then they just say we need to take you somewhere. I said, Okay, who are you? They said we are security. Okay, which security? CMI.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:36

CMI is what? Uh for those who don't know.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:39

Chief, they said chieftain of military intelligence. I said, okay, now where can you keep your guns and then tell me where you want me to go, but do not shoot anyone or cause any accident here. So then I submitted myself to be taken where they want me to go. Now, as if I was not humble enough, they manhandle me or whatever, whatever they one grabs the my uh pants and the other one, this one, they push me down the stairs, we go to their car. So I enter, then they blindfold me, so they don't want me to know where I'm going.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:25

So at this moment, what's going on through your mind?

SPEAKER_05 1:43:30

Uh-huh. Very, very good question. Because now I'm asking myself, what is going on? Son, I I try to live a straight life. I do not do not enter into business that doesn't really concern me. Number two, I do not wish anyone bad or do anything bad to anyone. I try to live a respectful life with everyone. So I'm trying to understand.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:02

You're wondering whose toes have I stepped on.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:04

Exactly. What did I do? Is it this these talks I do about education? Could I have hurt someone unknowingly? That's the worst actually I would go to in the process in the car, blindfolded. Now, before you know, I am in a place I don't know where I am. So later on, I get to know I am in buya.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:33

For those who don't know Mbuya, what is Mbuya?

SPEAKER_05 1:44:35

It's Mbuya is a part of Kampala, it's a village. It's a place, part of it's a name of the place, part of Kampala, but there is that's where also CMI is headquartered. So that's where I am. Uh, someone tells me, but they were nice when I was there, they were really good. Uh, they even bought me food, give me uh some soda to drink, and but no one is telling me why.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:57

You're just sitting there, yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:59

So no one is telling me, I'm in a boardroom, some no one is telling me what is happening. They were really, really kind. But some were also empathetic. Some could come and be professor. What have what has happened? Then I'm asking them, like, guys, you brought me here. You are asking what has happened. So we don't know. So some of them we didn't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:20

I think it to give people a uh uh a context, because there's always context in things. If I'm not mistaken, that was around 2019. 2019, 2020, 2021. No, no, 2019, I think that's when there was uh issues between Rwanda and Ukraine. And then they closed the border. True. And the issues, some of the issues that they talked about was from the Ugandan side, it for me who was an observer was that they were talking about the fact that you know there were issues with potential random spies in the in Uganda, and people were being picked up who they were calling Randan agents. There were people who are working for MTN who were deported back. There was a lot of really, there was a lot of tension and bad blood.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:19

That's correct. That's correct. Now I am seated there and no one is mentioning even that to me, for sure. But at some point, one officer comes to me and says, uh, of course, they have my phones. They want to see, do you communicate to people in Rwanda? I said, Of course you do. I have relatives. Okay? I have a sister, I have uncles, I have aunties, I have I have people. So do you don't you don't communicate to Geno's? I said, you can you have my phone, you check. How many genos do you have here who are your friends in Uganda? Tell them, listen, I don't think that I even have a genu who is my friend in this country. But no one is telling me that you're a spy. So, but later on, they asked me how I came, how I came to Uganda.

SPEAKER_06 1:47:24

How you came to Uganda?

SPEAKER_04 1:47:26

Yes. As if you're not born here. I'm I'm telling how I came to Uganda. Where did I study from?

SPEAKER_05 1:47:36

The entire story we talked about. I tell them. When did I go to Canada? Meanwhile, I'd spent 15 years without stepping in Rwanda. Okay. So, what do you know about Rwanda? So I know about Rwanda. I've worked in Rwanda as well. So yeah. So uh later on I slept there in the same bedroom. But besides all those, they were nice, like honestly. Every time I needed something, they gave me. They were they were even supposed to take me to a VIP area for me to do what? If I was going to sleep there for another day or night. So the following day, I get to be called. So I now at that point in time, I don't know what has got happened, what is going on behind what I am involved in. The following day, around five, uh, five closer to six, I'm I'm called. Uh you come and go home. I say, okay, sure. Then I asked, but you brought me here with two people, my security and my uh personal assistant. So can I have them? So you will have them, they will send them. I said, no, I'm not leaving. You brought me here with two people, I need to go with them. So I went back to the boardroom. So like seven minutes after they brought them. So, okay, you can leave. My one of my bosses, Rajiv, the son of Dr. Sudiv, the late, the late Rajiv comes in in CMI, picks me up, and takes me home. Now, coming out is when I found a sea of information. How I am accused of uh that word, Epsilon, then uh a spy of Rwanda. An illegal I was not born in Rwanda, I am living here illegally, I am my parents actually went in Rwanda to Rwanda in 1994, and they are living in Rwanda. In the meantime, my parents are in SETA, Mukono. My father has never stepped even in Rwanda ever since he was born from where he was born. My grandfather passed on a long time ago, and he was also buried here. My father is dead, of course, is buried in Seta. My mother is there now. All their passports, all their IDs, my IDs were all very easy. So they had created a story that does not exist completely. So it crumbled like that. But of course, in every institution, they are bad people, bad apples. But uh I've since come to know that uh they were apprehended, they were charged, and the some of them, two or three, were disciplined. I don't know the kind of discipline, but they they came, they apologized to me. But uh again, the president himself is the one who asked uh whoever he asked in charge of uh CMI to release me. And that's how I was released.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:04

You you were released by the president?

SPEAKER_05 1:51:06

Yes. So that's how I survived. But with the adfocus, of course, of so many people involved. We had uh Frank Agashumba, you I think you know him very well. He went directly, he met the president. Andrew Muenda directly had a conversation with the president. Ambassador Adonia Ayevare again interfaced with the president, telling him that this is what they have done is totally wrong. Uh, Geno Kahindo Tafire, General Jim Mwesi, like all those people. I am really thankful to them, all of them. They stood up uh up for me, and the president also found it important to listen to them. And can you imagine? I was arrested on Thursday. On Friday, we had a meeting with the president. There are different matters we were working on, me and uh Franca Gashumba. At 2 p.m. Friday, we didn't show up. Gashumba shows up alone. And the president said, When he asks him, where is our friend? That's how the conversation was picked up. And uh he it was like five, no, like three, four. He said, Oh, give me one, give me until six until 5 p.m., telling Gashumba. So that's how I got released. But uh, but again, even the media houses in this country and the people on X, on different platforms, Facebook, everywhere, they were on my side. My goodness. What I found outside, I would never thank them enough.

SPEAKER_06 1:52:49

But I hear what you're saying, but then it reminds me of the story that you told earlier about how you were perceived in your community back to Masaka as a kid. You were still you were born there, you spoke better Luganda than them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at any moment, yes, they they reminded you that you're not part of them. You look, you looked at the you know, and and and I wonder even at that moment, yes, on one side, you know, you have all this support from prominent Ugandans, like you said, the media and they're supporting you in your absence. However, if your name wasn't Muganga and you are called Baluku Dembe, would you have ever been mistreated that way? Uh would your powerful friends have, would they have ever had to like uh call the president to let you out?

SPEAKER_05 1:54:03

If I to be honest, Sani, if I was not a Myarwanda, no one would have attached me to Rwanda. So it became like it's a crime to be a Mny Rwanda in Uganda. You know, I did not choose to be born a Mny Rwanda, and I I do not regret it, and I am proud to be a Myaranda. And no one can take that out of me. You know, the same way I respect Mganda. He or she did not ask to be Mganda, and I love them and I respect them. I respect Mniangore. He did not ask to be a Mnyankore. God created them. My job is to live with them, to embrace them, to create a community with them, to live in harmony with peace. But of course, what you are, what I am, played a key role in this kind of it made you almost like the other. Exactly. Like you're asking, like you wake up and you say, I am a spy. I don't know how much money they pay spies, but I don't think there is any much money anyone can pay me to become a spy. That's I have worked so hard, Sunny. I have endured so much to be here. To be here, I have paid a price. I have lost things to say no, I want to contribute to my country, I want to add value to my country. Everything else of you, I was you're calling me a Munya Rwanda, I am not Ugandan enough. It is noise to me, but it is the reality, it is there. People exploit such root holes, but of course, if you one, if you look at uh our history and you trust everyone where they come from, you would be surprised. You would find Cameroonians here, you find Nigerians here, but they are in a form of a different tribe. But it's okay for them to be who they are. But why is it why is it difficult for a Munya Rwanda to be a Ugandan? You know, and we have pushed that even to this day. We are very grateful that His Excellency, the President, has really been uh President Museven has been on our side, he has supported us to break the stigma of being a Munya Rwanda. It was tough. People decided to hide in different tribes. People call themselves Katongole, call themselves Sempija. I have a good friend of mine, Ruzindana. He lost his name. He calls himself uh his father, Ruzindana, gave him a name called Guanyonga. Okay? He has since growing up as a child, he threw the the the Ruzindana, he threw away Guanyonga, and he's called Senonga. And despite the fact that at some point he was the chairman LC5, Mukono District, my district, where I come from. Despite the fact that he has frequently run as a member of parliament, when his child went to ask for a passport, she was denied a passport. But later on, it was fixed, she got a passport. So, and thanks to President Museven when he issued the executive order. But you can imagine we have to beg to be Uganda. You know, but again, you go back to human nature, you talk about psychology, the psychology of everything that we we live with, we do. There is it takes it takes a particular level of maturity to start looking at Africa's African Africans as one.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:21

That's going to be tough.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:22

It is going to be very, very tough, but we have to educate people on a daily basis. And now, like when I got out of that kind of uh Kwagamaya, that arrest, there are so many people who flocked my office. You have to sue CMI, you have to go to court, you have to do everything. I told them no. And indeed, and that's what I felt. Uh listen, people make mistakes in life. And when they make mistakes, the good thing I am alive. And they they didn't treat me bad. So, and then if you're going to sue uh CMI, for example, you were released by on the orders of the president. Who is the the commander-in-chief? It's the president. So if you are suing a CMI, you are suing the president, and he's the same man who ordered that you be released. I am not special. There are some other people who have been arrested for particular reasons, and they never even had a chance to come back, all right, in in a week or two. But me, I was I was arrested yesterday. Today I am here. So I am grateful that actually I slept there one night. But again, it was ugly, it was bad.

SPEAKER_06 1:59:43

It's actually quite traumatizing.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:44

Very traumatizing. And that's the time even my kids were around. Oh no. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:59:49

So all of a sudden you don't know where.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:51

Yes, I told their mother that you know what, tell them I'm coming back. It it was actually prophetic, and uh God really worked with us very, very well. I said, you know what, tell them I'm going for some work somewhere, I'll be back tomorrow. And I came back tomorrow. But somehow, growing up, being kids who really raised in a tech world, they went online and they found out that they found out all these things and they asked, but dad, what had happened? They are reading all the stories, everything.

SPEAKER_06 2:00:24

They must have been super scared.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:26

Then I explained to them. So, but it was ugly, but also very, very important to throw like to throw some light to this kind of discrimination and um which hunting uh people just because of uh who they are, you know. Yeah, so but I'm grateful. I was really very, very thankful to them. They could have harmed me, but they could, they didn't. They could have uh done something even worse, they didn't. And uh the president uh said, you know what? You have no case to answer, please come out. But also this uh Sunday needs to be clarified. Every, I don't know, I don't know in what happens in Rwanda, but uh with Rwanda's immigration, I don't know, or Kenya's immigration, or Tanzania's immigration, but I know that Uganda now, I know that Uganda's immigration. Every time you assume another citizenship of another country, okay, you need to write to the immigration board of Uganda and inform them that I'm taking up another citizenship, but I still need to maintain my Ugandan citizenship. So then you qualify for what they call dual citizenship. If you don't, you have lost your Ugandanness. That is also something that happened to me. You know what I mean? So now, but and that there are so many Ugandans in different countries, they still think they are Ugandans. But when you are not engulfed in a situation like that, you will never know, and no one cares. You even come here and got a national, you come and you get a national ID, and no one will even care. But legally, by law, you are not a Ugandan. You have to come back and apply for dual citizenship if you still need the other citizenship. So again, in that process, I went through the immigration people were really kind, were really very helpful. I applied for dual citizenship. After the fact, yes, like you are a Ugandan, and that Ugandann-ness can't get out of you, you know, but you have to regain your citizenship. So I applied, and the board approved my dual citizenship, and I go to the set the certificate, the citizenship certificate again.

SPEAKER_06 2:03:03

You know, you've become one of the most prominent voices in a movement that I think is so interesting for me. It's what I call the Abhand Dimwe movement. Now, for those who speak Kinyaranda, Abhavan Dimwe means family members.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:19

Yeah, brothers, brethren.

SPEAKER_06 2:03:21

Brethren. Now, there is it's it's become almost a way that Kinyaranda-speaking Ugandans come together and identify each other. But within that movement of Ugandan Banyar Rwanda, there are two there are almost two two two sides to the argument. There are those who I call, those who call themselves Abba Vandimwe. Then there are those who say that that is renunciation via our identity, that we are Banyarwanda.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:59

Yes, correct.

SPEAKER_06 2:04:01

Now, very often there's obviously a bit of a friction there. Friction. Because there's you've talked about identity, that God made you this way. And you can't change it. And you can't change it. And I am a proud Rwanda. Now, what is this baban de thing? And don't you worry that even within the community that you're trying to unite, that this initiative that might be a good, it comes from it probably comes from a good place, might actually end up causing more harm. It might end up causing division in an already what I'd call a vulnerable community. Already people are saying you guys are the other. Now it's like you're separating into, oh, but we are called, we're not, we're not them. We're not those Banyar Rwanda. Call us.

SPEAKER_05 2:05:09

Isn't there an issue there? Now, Sonny, thank you for giving me actually this opportunity to throw some light on this. Because I I noticed it became very, very, like you said, very contentious for so many people. Now, and you said it very well that probably it comes from uh a good heart. No, it's not even probably, it comes from a good heart, like I said, I am a Rwanda. Okay, and I didn't create myself, I was born one, and God willed it. I am a proud Munya Rwanda, and I'm a proud Ugandan Munya Rwanda, and I'm a Ugandan, proud to be Uganda. Every history of mine is written in this country, that of my parents in this country. They happen to have an ancestor and their ancestors, great ancestors came from Rwanda. Natural justice really points to the fact that I should not be discriminated because of that. However, reality is different now. In our situation here, our people, people like me. You have a name, you have a name Uera, you have a name Kagame, you have a name Mongoli. You cannot you are not Ugandan enough. You have come from somewhere. They even take it to a level that as if you have come, you came yesterday. But while that discrimination is real, we should also be real. And this is where my fellow Banyarwanda don't want to step and face the facts. We have a constitution that actually, if you look at how this constitution, I'm not a lawyer, evolved 1962, Banyarwanda who okay, Banyar Rwanda, or any other person who was there in the night or on the night of 8th October before independence, became a Ugandan. And even when they did this other constitution of what I think of uh 1966 or something like that, that did not change. And even the 1995 constitution, as it comes up, it says anyone who is a Ugandan, by the time this constitution is being made, is remains what? A Ugandan. Of course, there are other articles that now specify that someone needs to belong to a particular one of the indigenous communities and on shape on another schedule in the constitution. So And Vanyaranda there. But now you have to prove that you or your parents belong to that community, indigenous community that was and must have been there before 1926. But let me tell you the if you go by the 1995 constitution, there are so many Vanyaronda. Without considering these other constitutions, there are so many Vanyaranda whose parents came 1958, 1959, 1957, 1960, 1980, even 1994. Now, those people, the constitution does not look at them as Ugandans. That you need to apply for naturalization to be a citizen. And when you identify yourself as uh you go to an immigration uh officer asks you, you say in uh you filled in a Myaranda. Then they ask you, okay, the Mny Rwanda, yeah, when did your parents come come here? You say 1959. Immediately they send you for naturalization. So but that created a situation that even when you don't fall in that category, you are still sent to naturalization. And unless you lie, say no, no, no, me, I'm a Muganda. My father is a Muganda, my mother is a Miranda. That's how many, many, many people really hide in that kind of uh camouflage of some sort. But when we noticed, Sunny, that our people are suffering because of just being a Mirwanda, I remembered, or we remembered, we're a group of people, by the way. We said, how can we really save our people? And how can we also help immigration? Because every time, now, if um you are a Rwandese, say let's use the ambassador of uh Rwanda in Uganda, and we are in a meeting, and we are asked to talk about who we are, he will introduce himself and say, I am a Mniaranda. Me too, I'll stand up and say, My name is Lawrence Muganga, I'm a Mniaranda. Now, what do you want the immigration officer here in Kampala to do? He will start asking, now I know this one is a Myaranda, who is even an ambassador of Rwanda to Uganda. But you, you are Myaranda of where? Then I have to now I've become a subject of investigation instantly. They have to determine I am a Mniranda of Uganda or a Mnaranda of where? Of Rwanda. So that was happening to so many people. Emuganda comes, and no one is asking them that question. But because us we have a country where actually we come from, our ancestors come from there, so you are immediately planted there. You understand? So we said, okay, I think we can overcome this problem. We said Bafumbira as a tribe. When did they become Bafumbira? They have Nyarwanda.

SPEAKER_06 2:12:38

Yeah, that's a that's a fake, that's a fake tribe.

SPEAKER_05 2:12:41

Thank you very much. Okay? I didn't I didn't want to say that. It's true. Uh-huh. But for them, they go to their mountain and they call them and say, for us, we live here, we are Bafumbira. Now everyone has forgotten that they are actually Banyarwanda. And when they go there, and now so many Banyarwanda decided to call themselves who? Abafumba. Abafumbira. Such that they can get all these uh passports IDs, but they are Banyarwanda. Despite the fact that we speak the same language, culture is the same, like, but they have you've even married each other's daughters and sons. Thank you. So they are the what? The same. We are the same. Now, we said, okay, now how many years did it take for them to be like this? Probably 30 years. Now, now they no one cares about them. They are they are Ugandans like everyone else. So now we said now, Lawrence Muganga, I'm a Mnyaranda. You can't take that away from me. Chinyarwanda will always speak Chinyarwanda. I strive to teach my kids to speak my language. The same way a Musoga will strive to teach their kids to speak Musoga. So I am a Munyarwanda. It's not the title of a tribe that makes me a Munyarwanda. No. It is me, how I was born and who how I was created and who I am. So therefore, can we get a name in that meeting? Can we get a name? That when can we get a word from Chinyarwanda that when you say it, someone who is walking will turn, if they are if that person is inaranda will turn and say, Are they talking about me? The same way in Chiny Rwanda, if you said this word I'm about to say, in a group where they are Banyarwanda, and you said Imanish, there is someone who will turn immediately, either if they are Pentecostal, they will turn and say, Imanish, right? Like it's just instincts. So we said there is one word that all of us, as Wanyarwanda here in Uganda or elsewhere, that unites us through our funding.

SPEAKER_06 2:15:11

We are brethren.

SPEAKER_05 2:15:12

We are brethren, all of us, brothers and sisters. So why can't we pick that word? And we say, okay, the Vanyarwanda of Uganda, if you guys don't want us to tell you that we are Vanyarwanda of Uganda, and every time we say it, you're going to investigate us of where we are coming from. Now we are Avandimbura. Are you happy now? Now, it would take long, it would take it the first 20 years. Us who are like my age would not benefit from it. But the same way Bafumbira overcame this situation. In 30 years, the generation that will be there seated in immigration or anywhere, no one would even remember that Abapandungwe came from where? Was a made-up. Exactly. So that is exactly what we did. It had no ill feelings, no nothing. It was actually trying to preserve a Munyaranda to be able to live in a free society like everyone else.

SPEAKER_06 2:16:20

So then why is it then we even within the community? Because what you've said sounds logical. And even at some level, someone could say that it's it sounds helpful. Why is it that even within the quote-unquote Abavandimwe, Ugandan Banyarwanda, there's such a huge fight now and tension.

SPEAKER_05 2:16:47

Now, let me tell you, culture, culture is a very sensitive thing. And belonging, a community is another sensitive thing. Now, it is very hard to convince my father, for example, if he was alive, that you're no longer this, you're this. Yes, you are this. My father would say, What do you want to do to us? No, we are this. We have a Nyiranda. Please don't tamper without even reasoning with you. I guess that And the most people who are for that, they were not suffering. For them, if you checked them actually, I don't want to mention names. If you checked them, they have a fumbira in by registration. Most of them. They have a banyakore. They are not even Banyarwanda. They have Nyarwanda by nature, they were but by registration. Even then when they knew that for me to survive, I have to disguise myself into something else. But here they are. Tomorrow, Sunny, today I'm here. I can't guarantee that in the next 50 years I'll be here. But my children and their children will be here. I want them to live in a country, to live in Uganda. They contribute to this country, to enjoy this country, or anywhere they will be, without being looked at, and they said this is not one of us. And every parent would desire that for their children. But I want to believe that, yes, those people are there and they were there, but they did not logically look at this argument or this proposal. And you can't blame them. It is the worldview they come with, it is the mindset they bring, it is the experience they bring. Because for them, being called being a Miranda is a pride. It's okay. I agree. But also, can we save a generation to live without being targeted? Exactly, but being looked at as different. Do you realize now? Let me give you, like, look, look at um the Japs here in Uganda and the Japs in Kenya. Just because the Japs don't have a country called Ava Avajapadora, or the Japs, no one cares about them. So they are here and they are also in Kenya. You know? So, but if there was a country like that, you say of where?

SPEAKER_06 2:19:34

I guess the, you know what, I very often decision making comes because of their very often their power politics. Sometimes I wonder, is it because you're such a huge constituency? If there were five of you, do you think you'd have the same?

SPEAKER_05 2:19:53

To be honest.

SPEAKER_06 2:19:55

Let's be real.

SPEAKER_05 2:19:55

Let me even tell you the truth.

SPEAKER_06 2:19:58

It might be a numbers thing.

SPEAKER_05 2:20:00

I I'll tell you before I come to that, I'll tell you the truth. Uh even the people who were against the Above and Murray proposal. I think at some at to some extent they were also right. We didn't educate them properly. We didn't sit down to sensitize people what was really happening. Those who were suffering would jump to the proposal. Those who are doing well would say, no, no, no, we don't need the proposal. But we didn't do a good education or sensitization for them. But coming back to what you said, to be honest, I am one Ugandan who believes that in this country, if everyone decided to say enough is enough, I will tell you who I am. You would be surprised that we are all we may be almost even 13 million people in this country. Yeah, which which Munoro has married a Munarwanda, which Mya Rwanda has married Soka, you know, you can't even count. I'll give you an example. One day we sit with the president. Some of these issues we ask him, but your excellency. People say, We Banyarwanda are eating with you. What are we eating? What are we eating? Honestly, they say everything bad that happens in your government say, You see, Banyarwanda. Banyaranda, we who are seated in front of you, what are we eating? We are grateful that you have created an environment that is peaceful and we can work hard and work ourselves, and we get what to eat. But who do you have in your government that is eating with you? The president mentioned the people. You know, he mentioned the people. I was surprised. I didn't know that they were Nyaranda. In that meeting, he he he told us, uh, by the way, did you know that uh Bamulanga uh minister Bamulanga Chi Sempija is a Myaranda? I said all of us said, What do you know? I said, Okay, all of us, our hairs almost evaporated, left our of course. I don't even have hair, I almost lost nothing. So so so he mentioned people now taking us back to the other conversation we had, that so many people, how would you how how would you wake up and say that uh uh say Vicent Bamlangachi Sempija is not in Muganda? How? How would you wake up and say that so and so is not a Muganda? They have entrenched the Baganda tribe and the Avaganda, but if you asked them properly, they will tell you by the way, my grandparents or great-grandparents came from Rwanda and blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_06 2:23:52

And there are so many people, and I guess maybe that's why the state is so frightened of you as Uganda Banya Rwanda's quote unquote above, because they don't know who you are. You know, I would be worried, I think, also as say I'm a member of the security services. I want to know, okay, if I go to a conflict with a Nation X, that I don't have a bunch of people who might be my generals, who might be the police officers, who might be the people in my intelligence services, who might be my factory owners, my drivers, my maids. I don't want to go into war with someone, yet at the back end, they are taking care of my children. So I uh you it's a tough position to be, I think, for the Ugandan state, and and and and so I can understand how complex the issue is. It's quite complex.

SPEAKER_05 2:25:06

No, it's it's you're right, uh uh Sonic, you it's complex, but also when you are Ugandan, you are a Ugandan. Okay. Germans, you look at Germans and say Americans. You think that America, there is a person, I mean, those red Indian maybe they are the ones who Aboriginal. Yes, they're inhabitants of what? They are aboriginals, yeah. They are the ones with that indigenous community, they are the ones who can claim only to be of that land, the land. But everyone else, even the entire Canadian, the entire Canadian community, most of them they have come from somewhere. The difference is when did you come? So, but when they wake up and they are in an unfortunate situation that okay, politics has uh really become sour, and um agreement, you can't reach an agreement. When they are fighting, everyone fights for their country. They don't remember that I came from where? Because now the army has a discipline and that's what must be followed. But but uh I I can't explain so what happens there because I'm not one, but one thing I also have to emphasize is that why do we even have to deteriorate to that extent of the first thing we are going to even worry about is when we start fighting. Why should we even fight in the first place? Yeah? Why can't we be one? Growth and development and transformation comes from unity. So we shouldn't even be thinking about fighting. We should actually be looking at when Uganda is here, Rwanda is here, Kenya is here, Tanzania is there. Whoever attacks us as a community of these countries, uh whoever attacks one attacks us all. You know, and we do what? Now, just give let's say there let me give you an example again in the spirit of honesty. When Banyarwanda were fighting alongside Museven. Didn't they give a hundred percent? They gave a hundred percent. Kakame gave a hundred percent. Everyone else who was in Rwanda gave and seven him, his excellency president also says it. They died like every other person, the way they died. If a bullet came, he didn't choose to go through like a crowd of people to choose Msoga or M Toro. No, if it came in your direction, it chose that person. So they they started together, they died together, they survived together as one team. Where did that discipline go?

SPEAKER_06 2:28:20

So it's time to start eating.

SPEAKER_05 2:28:24

No, sometimes we shouldn't eat ourselves. Yes, we eat food, don't eat yourself, you know.

SPEAKER_06 2:28:30

No, it's it's it's it's a tough situation because we're talking about these uh I we're talking about what I'd call village matters, right? Because we're as primitive, as as as President Museveni often calls it, primitive politics. Yet on the other side, people are creating artificial intelligence that will, if we're not careful, take us into a direction as human beings that we haven't even thought about. And that and I want to conclude this conversation because you've spent a lot of time about one of the things that I think are super important, which is the relationship between AI and education. I know you're a huge proponent of AI, artificial intelligence, especially in the way you create syllabus and educational work here at Victoria University. But don't you worry that the way AI is reshaping how work, the definition of work, how we can work, the goal of work, that because of what that what is happening around that AI and say robotics, large language models, that we're approaching a point where this thing, this service that you render, which is university education, will become obsolete, where I don't need to come to pay three million shillings per trimester to study here at Victoria University, and I can work with Chat GPT and get all the learnings of the world. And if that is what the future then is is coming, what the future is bringing, what does that mean for the millions of Africans that are being emplo being educated in the systems that exist today? You know, you have you know thousands of students. Makare University has thousands of students, the University of Rwanda has thousands of students, and all of them are being taught in what I would call a they are being taught for a world that does not exist anymore.

SPEAKER_04 2:31:07

That's true, that's true.

SPEAKER_06 2:31:09

So, what does that leave for you and your industry of higher education? Do you see yourselves in 20 years not being relevant to a young person? Does it that PhD that you worked so hard to attain? What is a PhD other than the fact that you're telling the world that I have become an expert in this field? What is a PhD when all I have to do is go on my computer and give it a few good prompts. And everything that you've ever learned is at my fingertips. What does it mean for education? What does it mean for Victoria University in 2050?

SPEAKER_05 2:32:04

And uh I want to argue that 2050 is very, very far. I just want to bring you closer to 2030. And you know, human beings sometimes we reduce some conversations and we don't pay attention to them, and we inflate different conversations that don't even have value, and then they divide us. Yet there is something dangerous we are about to face and we don't pay attention to that. So AI is one of those conversations that actually people have not really given serious attention. Yet it is so transformative. It is going to change the world we are about to live in more than we could have imagined. Now, let me paint a picture for you. Then I'll tell you how we are repositioning ourselves, beginning with uh ourselves here as a university, Victoria University. But this cannot just be an affair of just Victoria University. No, it's an affair of an entire country, an entire East, the entire East African community, Africa, the rest of the world is moving there, is doing something. And some African countries are a little bit far away from others. You ask about Uganda, that's a story that is very, very difficult. We don't have a policy, an AI policy. We don't have an AI strategy, but we are working on it and we are trying to develop a good one. I happen to be a member of the National AI Task Force here in Uganda. So, and everyone is passionate to really. Create something that is aligning with the Uganda we know. Not just jumping on a bandwagon of uh, oh, we need an AI strategy just because another country has. No, we we want to create something that really works for Ugandans. Now, you know, Africa or Uganda or East Africa does not exist in a vacuum. We have to look at us as a continent or a country while we're also comparing ourselves to others. And the research that is out there is not just hearsay or emotions or anything. This is credible research from credible research bureaus or multinational uh agencies that really thrive and survive on research. So now I'm going to give you an example of credible research that is depended on by even, say, the what the likes of the World Bank, the likes of the World Economic Forum or African Development Bank, or any other different governments. And this is Ark Invest. It's a fund management firm that has a huge and dependable research bureau. And there are so many that really align with this kind of information I'm about to share. So, and that dates back to how the world has evolved, this world that we live in. If Sanay take you back to the 1700s to today, every time there has been an innovation or a creation of a particular technology, that technology has impacted the productivity of the world. So you start with say 1800, for example, we get the steam engine, for example, showing up. That impacted the productivity of the world, and more so where it was done. We started seeing a global GDP hovering around, increasing by almost 2.8%, which had never happened before. Then you come to a time when, let me just uh rush you to, for example, the industrial revolution. We start seeing the telephone, we see the automobile, we see electricity. When those new innovations or inventions showed up, now this time, GDP increase of the world started going to almost eight percent. It has never been the same. Now, those are facts. It's not forecasts, those are facts. So, what does it tell us? It tells us that every time there is a significant innovation or invention, productivity of countries also increase. So let's then that was followed by the economic depression, the world war, uh, the second world war, and things were not well. Until we come now to the 1980s, the introduction of uh the rampance of the PC, the personal computers, we start seeing now the internet becomes rampant in 2000. GDP again comes back. So every time you see technology, another technology, another technology, there is always a huge impact on the productivity of global productivity. But that also becomes more when it comes to which country has initiated that today, right now, we are seeing the convergency of different technologies powered or driven or pushed by AI. We are seeing, of course, artificial intelligence and others are being built or powered by it. We have multiomic sequencing, that is now how emerging technologies are impacting the health sector, creation of new drugs, creation of uh different testing kits. How can we determine that someone has cancer by just doing some blood test in just one hour and you know that someone is on stage one cancer? That is where now technology is going. So you have uh public blockchain, you have energy saving, you have robotics. All those things are converging, powered by AI, but within them we are seeing now different technologies, almost 15 or 17 as a subset of these emerging technologies. So by 2030, when you see what Ark Invest that I referred to is projecting to be the increase in GDP, for example, of the world, it is looking at almost 18%. Wow. Okay, nothing like that has ever been seen anywhere. So now let's now break it down to real numbers. Again, same research looked at uh the world is total equity market capitalization. You can look at it as the total stock market of the world by in 2022. 2022, they noticed that the traditional economy, now if you're looking at the traditional economy, you're looking at Uganda, you're looking at Kenya, you're looking at Rwanda, that's the true definition of the traditional economy. We still cherish oil, we are talking about manufacturing coffee, whatever, all those things. But the traditional economy of the world contributed 87%, like 87 trillion dollars. But the new economy, the disruptive innovation technology economy driven by AI, by 22. Remember, AI was not so much of a thing in our conversations, but it was indirectly there in those developed countries. It contributed such such emerging technologies, contributed 13 trillion dollars. Now, 2030, 2030, it is projected that the traditional economy will contribute 90 trillions. Just imagine we have we are from 87 trillions, four years down the road from 2022. Those are how many years, not four, eight years down the road, it has only added three trillions. It will be 90 trillions. But the disruptive innovation technology economy, powered by AI, will contribute 210 trillion dollars. Now, the biggest question, everyone, university, tying this to your question now. The biggest question to ask ourselves, I, the individual Lawrence Muganga, we, the university, Victoria University, we Ugandans, Uganda, we East Africans, are we going to benefit from the $210 trillion? That's the question everyone, every president on this African continent should be asking themselves, are we going to benefit from that? If the answer is yes, oh, oh, do we wish to contribute from that kind of wealth, new wealth? If the answer is yes, what are you doing to prepare yourself to benefit from that new wealth being created? Or we are comfortable with the tradition economy, which is going to be which is shrinking every day and disappearing every day. So that means if you are a university and you don't evolve, you are training people to work in the tradition economy, which is shrinking. But if you are smarter and forward-looking, you have to align yourself with the emerging technologies led by AI to be able to produce graduates that are going to get jobs in the 210 trillion economy of the world by 2030. After all, the World Economic Forum has clearly told us in their recent report, which was of last year, Jobs of the Future report, it clearly stated that 26% of the jobs in 2026 will all be new, jobs that we have not seen. But what AI will contribute will be 100, globally, one uh one 170 million new jobs because of artificial intelligence. In the same lane, AI is going to cause the disappearance of almost 92 million jobs. Now, again, as a country, as a normal human being, as a university, you ask yourself, am I training students for the jobs that are disappearing? Am I training students to actually benefit from the 1700s?

SPEAKER_06 2:44:20

Are you training students for the world that is disappearing?

SPEAKER_05 2:44:24

That is disappearing. So research is there, evidence is there, we know that these things are happening. But again, interestingly, recently, I think it was when the chairmanship of the East African Community, chairperson ship, if I may use that word, was changing hands, and this time it was President Musevin taking over as the chairperson. He he in his address, he was talking to the leaders there, and he told them like while we are here, Americans and other three countries, they are busy frequenting the moon. And we hope that we can protect ourselves when there is someone overlooking us up there. Yesterday he was also still addressing all MPs in Changwan's, and he told them that we Ugandans, Americans, uh they have uh their spaceship right now in their program called Artemis.

SPEAKER_06 2:45:26

Artemis.

SPEAKER_05 2:45:27

They are busy, I think four astronauts, I think, busy touring the moon and everything. And then for us, we are here eating macarons, like you he was telling them. And he said that is this is really, really dangerous. And I am I was happy to hear that because now he understands that actually technology is something to think about.

SPEAKER_06 2:45:53

It's not an AK-47.

SPEAKER_05 2:45:54

Exactly. That that has been disseminated. Look at what is happening with Iran and US. We have come to a time where it's not about how many soldiers you have anymore. At some point, we may not even need boots on the ground, but people can disseminate an entire country somehow.

SPEAKER_06 2:46:14

So, so so now bringing it back to So, what does it mean for the the millions of Africans who one have been trained this way and who are still being trained for the traditional world, a world that does not exist? Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 2:46:30

Very, very good question again, which I want to link I want to link it up to again what President Mussevin was saying in that conversation that happened when he was becoming the chairperson. He said that uh just one country. And he was really, really, really passionately moved and uh felt bad. One country, the United States, he said, is its GDP is almost 40 trillion dollars. One country with 340, 50 million people. And then he likened it to Africa. 54 countries, almost 1.5 billion people. It's the GDPs of those countries combined is $3.3 trillion. He asked them, really, what are we doing? But I would have loved him to take that conversation further, tying it to your question again. That don't even look at US, look at what makes US's GDP. Look at companies, just individual companies. I would have told him that consider NVIDIA that is manufacturing these AI chips and everything, compute, which is almost $4.7 trillion its worth. That company, if it became generous and decided to distribute its worth to all Africans, you and I and all Africans would go home with $3,000. $3,000, all 1.5 billion people. Alphabet, the parent company of Google, it is almost $4 trillion. Microsoft, almost $3.8 trillion. Apple, $4 trillion. They are worth bigger than the African what? Continent GDP. So, but all these, these companies, individual companies, they know that growing coffee is important. They know that fishing is important, they know that extracting gold is important, they know that uh you can name it every traditional thing we do, but they have concentrated on technology. That's what has made it wealthy. Therefore, what do we do as to escape this trap we are in of uh almost infinity poverty, if you wish? You start also embracing this or these emerging technologies. You start thinking having a mindset that every economy should also be driven by technology. We don't have to become just users of these technologies. Can we also be given an opportunity to become creators of these technologies? Why? Why we are better than everyone else, we have the youngest population. And when it comes to embracing technology with ease, young people are better than older people. You have kids, if you left them with a phone, you don't need to teach them anything, you'll find them figuring out everything, even sometimes better than you have ever used your phone. Now, that means if we came up with a a particular roadmap that instills ethical use, responsible use of these technologies, then we can be better off. Now, you asked me how then can we make sure that this becomes part of part of what we do on a daily basis and use it to even develop ourselves. I want to use an example of uh what we do here at Victoria University, we have 12,500 students. But we said, Sani, we said Uganda has closer to 60 universities, and we are one of them. But every student of ours, please, if you want to study here, come with a laptop or a tablet, or even a good smartphone, if it can help you. Please don't bring your books, don't bring your pens. And we are saying that because the world is looking for what you can do with what you know, not just what you know, that means you need experience. Please, you will sit in our classrooms for only 15 hours a week, the rest of the hours a week, we want you to be placed somewhere and we want you to be doing something. Your learning, the teaching, assessment, including exams, all other admin work, they have been digitized. Why? Because we want our students to speak the digital language. You don't teach them computer because you sit them in a classroom and teach them. No, let them use it even to write the exam. Let them use it to write coursework, let them use it to do projects. It becomes part of them. So that means they are better than anyone who went to a different university. When it came to studying, they sat in front of a man, a woman, they started handwriting, a skill that they will never use in real life of handwriting, because I'm here with you, you have a tablet, everything is digitized. You could have come with a paper and a pen. But it's no longer efficient anymore because every report you write, or the journalist who reports to you, no one files a story that is handwritten. Then why are you training students to sit in behind a table and keep handwriting to perfect a skill that they will never use? So, us, we want them to get used to tech. Now, what else have we done? We have said that this thing called artificial intelligence. It's important. We appreciate that. But how do we make it important for our students? Now we have embedded three AI modules in every program in this university. You begin with the best introduction, intermediate, and advanced. We want you to understand why is what is AI, why is it important, how can it impact my life, how can I use it in my profession? If you're a journalist, the AI tools for the journalist, the journalism world. If you are a nurse, the AI tools for the nurses. If you are into real estate, the AI tools for real estate. Now you start by understanding basic, intermediate, advanced. So when it comes to Genie AI, agent, agentic AI, or using agents and everything, now you can create things that make you more productive. Why? Because research shows us that by 2030, productivity of the human race is going to shoot by almost 400%. Now, if you are honest with yourself and you are seated in East Africa here or in Uganda to be particular to be particular, in particular, is it true that our people, their productivity will increase by 400%? The truth is no, because they have not been trained and retooled and empowered.

SPEAKER_06 2:54:44

So it almost sounds like what you're saying is well Harvard, right? So Harvard is probably among the best schools in the world, Cambridge, Massachusetts. And it's a place of it's it's found in a country that is really embracing AI, the United States. Correct. Now, are you saying that because we Victoria University is in in Uganda, where its population is not very tech-savvy, which is what we just call let's let's use the most critic language and not tech savvy, that you as a university still has a place to a role to play in education, even in this tech world, because you still almost remain your professors, your coursework almost remains the link between the world that is coming and the student and the traditional world they've come from, and then you're saying, hey, we're going to help you navigate. This world that is coming.

SPEAKER_04 2:56:02

Correct.

SPEAKER_06 2:56:03

But that almost seems like you are what I'd call the last of a of a dying breed. You know, you're going to die less slowly because your population is not ready for the new world. But then it still means that, say, 30 years from now, where now the thing that you were teaching people, which was to use these tools to then come and and become a nurse and become a doctor and become a journalist, AI will take that job. True. Because, truth be told, I studied, and my teachers were in the National University of Rwanda. They were okay, but they were not the best. Now, imagine a world where, and they couldn't teach me the way I wanted to be taught. Imagine a world where, with a screen, there's an AI that knows Sunny intimately. It has been with me since I was in primary school, in nursery school. And it knows me, it knows my strength, it knows how to reach me, it knows when I'm tired. It actually looks at my eyes and says, Ah, Sunny's bored now. Uh and can say, you know what, Sunny, you look like you need a shot of espresso. Relax. Go take a coffee, come back in 30 minutes. It's almost a perfect professor. And now, not even a it's a perfect professor who knows all the world's knowledge. In real time. In real time.

SPEAKER_02 2:57:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 2:57:53

Does Victoria University exist in that world?

SPEAKER_05 2:57:56

Now, and Sunny, you are right, in a way that the more we stay hesitant to leap ourselves forward and leave the traditional way of things, we are going to be destroyed as universities. Because in the near future, you're going to have universities that don't have people, real people. And they will have professors who are not real people. Because right now, why today a university leader would be proud, and even the regulators would be very proud to ask a university to show me your library. Is it fully stocked? And the university leader would say, we are the best. We have a fully stocked library. We've been, we have had books ever since 1910 to today. We have books in our library. And the regulator would say, Tick, the university, has checked that box. Their books are full. But books are 20 years old, 10 years old, 5 years old. If you are universities that have been here for 100 years, even 100 years old, and you're proud. Actually, you don't know that you're proud, you're priding yourself in just disaster. Now, in that situation, what is it going to take us to actually even convince the regulator that you are asking a terrible question? You are actually living, not even in yesterday, you live not even yesterday, if that is a word, you're leaving decades.

SPEAKER_06 2:59:51

Centuries back.

SPEAKER_05 2:59:54

Now, the Victoria University that I know, that I work for, that I read, that's why we ask these students to be gadget-friendly, to have these gadgets. And if you don't have, then we find means where do you get gadgets and you pay slowly. But still, if this is not your lifestyle or your way of doing things, like I started with six-day universities in Uganda, go find another university. We are not competing with anyone, but we know that our responsibility is to mold, is to develop, is to nurture a young person or a person who will thrive in the world you have just talked about, where the machine is versing man, and most of the time the machine is winning. You understand? So we are saying, now we don't need the physical library. But I am able to understand that BBA needs these textbooks. Then I purchase the books of yesterday, latest edition, maybe four. And the entire community of BBAs, they are pushed on their machines in real time. So now I have given the entire library to every student to work with it, to work with it 24-7. The latest paper, 24-7. They don't even need it to come to this building. They can stay where they are. Now, whenever they are frequently using this machine, it means it becomes simpler for them to adapt to every tool. When it comes to a situation where you are in a bank, for example, and they need a report, a particular report. Traditionally, they have had to wait for this report for three weeks. And the other student who came from anywhere else needs three weeks to produce that report. My student, because he's convalent with his tools, he needs 30 minutes and he'll give you a report. Now, Sunny, if you were the bank manager, you have student A ready to furnish you with a report three weeks from now. You have student B ready to furnish you with a report in 30 minutes. Which not student, employee and employee, which employee do you stay with?

SPEAKER_06 3:02:32

None of them. None of them. Yes, you know why? Why? Because now I can do it myself. Uh-huh. You see, now I've removed your because as the bank manager. Yeah, I agree. I I do this poop, poop, poop, poop, poop, input, I do it faster.

SPEAKER_05 3:02:48

I understand. There are certain things you're not going to eliminate as a bank manager. Right now I'm here talking to you. There are so many reports I can create on my own because the tools are available and conversant with them. But I need time to spend with you and we talk. So I am going to need someone who is going to do this work on my behalf and I pay them. But I don't need the other person of three weeks. So that means in between the two evils, God forbid I'm calling employees evils, I need a better evil. If my workload reduces and I don't have to meet 152 people a day, then maybe I don't need this person.

SPEAKER_06 3:03:32

Maybe you need to have a virtual assistant. Doctor, no. Virtual doctor Mugama.

SPEAKER_05 3:03:38

The twin, the digital twin. No, that is also possible. Okay. But also you have in the in the process of growth and transitioning people, you need to leave them with the humanism until they get there. Right? So we are going to still need people, but in a situation of a three, a three-week weeks person and one and 30 minutes, this person will, it's not the AI that has replaced the other person. It is another person who dared to learn something new and empowered themselves to use existing AI tools that is replacing that person. So that in the interim or in the next 10 to 20 years is going to become the norm. And so many people are going to lose their jobs. So before, because 50 years from now, we don't know how that is going to look like. Maybe we will be in abundance and the singularity kind of AI, where you and I no longer need to work and machines are working for us. No one needs to worry about a job. Perhaps we are in an abundance age, maybe. But for now, between now and third years, we are going to need people, but some people are going to lose opportunities. But now, how do we position a Ugandan, my 12,000 students, put them in a position where anyone who has an opportunity begins with them?

SPEAKER_07 3:05:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:05:09

Not the other one who knows nothing about the world we are in. So our job today at Victoria University is to train a child or a student or a graduate who can fit anywhere in the world but can adapt to every digitally driven responsibility out there. So now, if you asked in this country, you'll find that we are the only digitally driven university in Uganda. I can't speak for other East African countries. I need to be there and maybe understand what they're doing. But we do our best to serve them. And we have so many students from different uh African East African students.

SPEAKER_06 3:05:58

We spoke about that.

SPEAKER_05 3:05:58

Yes. So, so, but all in all, AI is here. It's an uncomfortable conversation to have, depending on who you're talking to. If you're talking to the Gen Xs, for them, what they still think is what their world view looked at. They still think that delivering mail should be a border border to take it there. You don't need to send an email or to send a WhatsApp message. You still think it is not official enough. You go to police, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_06 3:06:34

They have to write a statement.

SPEAKER_05 3:06:35

In your handwriting, the digital one, they don't. If you came with your printer and a laptop, they don't want that statement. You need to handwrite it. So, but that is a mindset and that's a practice. It takes one leader to change that. We haven't gotten that one. But with technology advancing, AI advancing, like what you said, these agents thinking for people, doing administrative duties for people, listening to different clients coming in for on behalf of these people, everyone replicating myself into 10 other Lawrences out there. One would I can go to different meetings that require me to be physical, but when you need to meet me in person, I have a humanoid somewhere. Not a humanoid, like um there's this other word. But basically, some humanoid that is has been really trained to be me, only that it's better than me now. It thinks in real time and it works with abundant, like abundant information. I think you're better served to talk to it than me because I don't even remember the first things we discussed in this interview, but it would remember. So that's the world where we are going. But again, we don't know what is going to happen in the next 30 years. But let's also be cognizant of the fact that even in the next four, five, ten, things are changing faster than we could ever imagine.

SPEAKER_06 3:08:10

And with that, it it almost sounds like a note of encouragement, but it's also a bit of a warning. Because when you say we have to be aware. Yeah. That's also because what you're actually saying is that if you're not aware, you're out of this business. The world will take you.

SPEAKER_05 3:08:36

100%. And and and look at today, today, Sunny, and your viewers, today we may know different billionaires, say here in Uganda or anywhere in East Africa, the ones we know by name, you may find that they are they own hotels, they own, they are into real estate, they are into manufacturing. The next 10 to 20 billion years, they will dwarf these billionaires like never before. And they will not own these things I've just mentioned.

SPEAKER_06 3:09:13

And hopefully, yeah.

unknown 3:09:19

Dr.

SPEAKER_06 3:09:19

Muganga.

SPEAKER_05 3:09:20

Hopefully, indeed. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 3:09:22

Dr. Lawrence, thank you so much for joining me. It's been a long conversation, but I feel that it's given me a lot of pleasure to know more about you, to understand that even from the what I'd call the depths of hell, someone can rise and become a citizen. And a good citizen, even though, even when your fellow citizens deny you, deny you, you still are who you are. And then you then ended it with a conversation about the future and saying, hey, as a good citizen, my fellow East Africans, there's a train coming down the station. Are you ready to jump on or is it going to leave you? Correct. I hope you've enjoyed sitting down with me.

SPEAKER_05 3:10:17

Son, it has been a pleasure. Beautiful conversation. Made me remember my uh struggles. Yes. But uh, they are good scars, they have made me the kind of person I am. I don't know if I would have asked for a better person better than the kind of person I am because I don't know that version. But this has been really, really great. And uh been a privilege, huge pleasure to be on your platform. Been uh watching you like uh in a huge distance, been uh listening to your guests, it's satisfying to be one of them. And it's not something uh I take for granted personally or the institution I represent. There are so many institutions, but we're lucky you chose us. It it's it's we are grateful, but also, like you said, to fellow East Africans and Africans, we have a choice. We have we have an opportunity to shape a future, especially future whose uh main stakeholder is not us. So we don't want to answer, to be put in a situation where we have to answer questions in absence, because these grandkids of ours and great-grandchildren will wonder what did we do to position them in a place where they could match the circumstances they are being faced, they're they are they are facing. Why did we abandon them to that extent? Why did why did we give up on them? The unfortunate part is that if you're talking about a hundred years from now, fifty years from now, you are younger than me, maybe you will be there. But you don't have the energy to answer those questions. If I'm there or not, I'll not have the opportunity to answer those questions. And so many other people like us will not have the opportunity, yet we have the power today to rewrite or to write a better story for them, and that involves understanding that the world has changed, that the world needs us to not to adopt it as it is, but to adapt it such that our future stakeholders have a fighting chance lesser than that, the machine will vast the man and the woman, and the machine will win the day. Signs are there, we are experiencing them today, and the businessman and woman of the time will still want to earn as much profit as possible, as much dividends as possible, and to earn those, they will have to cut cost. And the cost will be the human beings, they will resort to a machine, so we can avoid that by investing heavily in the new technology that is here. We have seen history that every time there is an innovation, it impacts positively and highly the product productivity of every country. And for centuries, we have missed out on every opportunity of inventions that have happened. We have been followers and users. We have not created. We have an opportunity to create and to involve our youngest generation into the process of creating, innovating, solving problems, and we'll be a richer East Africa, we will be a richer Africa, and we'll have productive citizens of this continent. So thank you.

SPEAKER_06 3:14:50

Amen to that. Thank you so much for uh sitting down with me.

unknown 3:14:54

Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 3:14:56

And that's a wrap for today's conversation. Thanks for staying with us till the very end. It really means a lot. I'd love to know what was the one moment that really stood out to you. Drop it in the comments so that we can keep the discussion going. If you want to connect with us beyond YouTube or streaming platforms, you can find us on the social media platform of your choice. And if this is a podcast nothing for you, find it with a friend who would love it too. Until next time, have a great week.

SPEAKER_00 3:15:29

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