David Ponte | Who Owns African Music in the Streaming Era?

African music has never been more popular. Afrobeats, Amapiano, and other African sounds are reaching audiences across the world, generating billions of streams and reshaping global culture. But who is really benefiting? 

In this episode of The Long Form Podcast, Audiomack Co-Founder and CMO David Ponte discusses the rise of African music, the economics of streaming, why many artists still struggle to make money, what global platforms misunderstand about African audiences, and what it takes to build a technology company capable of competing with Spotify, Apple Music, and YouTube. 

We also explore why some African artists break through globally while others remain local, and what the future holds for music, technology, and culture on the continent.

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Produced by LF Media 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:36

The long form. The long form. This conversation is brought to you by Akagera Medicines, a biotech company that is majority owned by the Roman people. Akagera Medicines is not only committed to expanding access to healthcare, but also supporting conversations that inform, educate, and empower. Learn more about Akagera Medicines by scanning the QR code on your screen or by visiting their website at Akagera Medicines.com. Music used to belong to places. A sound came from somewhere. Kingston, Atlanta, Lagos, Kigali. Now music moves through platforms. Algorithms decide what people hear. Streaming companies shape culture. And sounds made by broke artists from Africa generate millions of streams around the world while the artists themselves still struggle to survive. So that raises uncomfortable questions. Who really owns culture in the digital age? Who profits? And when African music goes global, does Africa actually win? My guest today on the Long Form Podcast is David Ponte. David is the co-founder and chief marketing officer of Audiomac, one of the world's biggest music discovery and streaming platforms. Audiomac has become deeply embedded in the rise of Afrobeats and African music globally. But with that success comes scrutiny. Because while platforms have grown into massive companies, many artists still feel underpaid, invisible, and disposable. So this is not just a conversation about music. It's about technology, power, ambition, and who really benefits when culture becomes data. David, welcome to the long form. Thanks for having me. First time in King Galley, huh?

SPEAKER_02 2:37

This is my first time. Why are you here? I'm here because my company, Audio Mac, had a big event yesterday. And I wanted to meet all the artists. So we invited a lot of the artists from the city, from the country. Wanted to meet them, learn about what uh what challenges they have, what you know, what inspires them. And also get to just meet a lot of a lot of cool people in the city. You know, I'm very impressed with the city. So I was in Dar Salaam before this, and it was only a quick, quick flight up here. So it was a lot to learn and a lot of great people to meet.

SPEAKER_03 3:17

Yeah, it's amazing. Um, I actually was at your event and so thank you for the invitation. And I just remember sitting down and talking to the artists and trying to understand how they use the platform and how it's improved, whatever they're doing, and we'll kind of talk about that. First time in Kigali, I always ask people who've never been here, what has surprised you the most about this city? And and maybe the country as well, and the people, and the people.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Okay, okay. One, two, three. I I'm not gonna lie, I was in I was just pretty shocked.

SPEAKER_04 3:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

I I talked to some, you know, obviously I was here, I'm here with Charlotte Bon, our VP of marketing, and a couple of my other friends have been to the city, and they're like, You're gonna love Kavala, you're gonna love Rwanda. And it's really much different than any other country in Africa or city in Africa I've been to. I you know, it's my fifth country I've been to.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Why do you say that?

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Two things, like just immediately that you notice when you when you get out out of the out of the plane and and start to head into the city is just the climate. Like it's it's it's we you know, we use Fahrenheit, it's like 75 degrees here. Like I'm used to getting out, like walking out of the Lagos airport. It's like you get hit with like you're like slapped in the face with the heat and humidity. 95, 100 degrees, you know. Same with Ghana or or or or Dar where I just was. So first of all, it's like cool. Second of all, it's cool, meaning like the people are like chill, everyone, it's like a very vibrant, you know, kind of like like just what's the word I'm thinking of? Like it's just like sophisticated to me, like you know, and then you have the hills, it's very clean. I come from a dirty city called New York, and I still have not seen one piece of leather on the ground. Like, and if I did, I'd pick it up because we have to keep it pristine here. Yeah, so it's just organized, like people have like nice cars, like a lot of new cars, like just things that you don't necessarily see in other other countries in Africa or other countries in general. So everyone here is like pretty pretty cool and like like hip, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_03 5:43

No, um I want to so like I said, I was at the event and I was talking to artists, and whenever you talk to artists, the thing that keeps coming up is revenue. Am I making money? Am I making money? So I'm just gonna start with what I'd call an uncomfortable question. Audiomac has become huge partly because of African music and African audiences, right? So obviously you've been offering a service that was needed, but many artists are still making very, very little money from streaming. So why shouldn't people see platforms like Audio Mac as simply another Western company extracting value from African creatives, African resources?

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Yeah, I wouldn't look at it like that. You know, we because we make a lot of investments, you know, on the continent, we have many different uh, you know, employees, people that work with us part-time contractors, we work with a ton of different vendors, PR companies, you know, event companies. So, like, for example, just like we came here yesterday, it's not like I brought my event team. Like, we hired an event team, you know, we hired publicists, we hired, you know, organizers of our of our trip that know what's going on here, that live and breathe, you know, the music scene here. We work with the the government to help put the event together. So, you know, we we came here to learn about what what the challenges are, what what how can we help bolster the infrastructure here in the in the music industry. And you know, in terms of the streaming, we're we're competitive with other ad-supported platforms, like like a YouTube or Spotify free version. RTMAC is a free app, so the the alternative is to not have music or use one of our competitors, which provides similar payouts to artists. And I would say that we're we we make money when the artist makes money, right? Like the the reason why the app is free is because we have advertising. So it's a it's a it's a delicate balance between making as much money for the artist slash copyright holder and us and not annoying everyone with ads, right? So we could throw more ads on there, but the artists are gonna go streams, we're gonna get less users. So like we're we're trying to manage it so it's like just enough ads where we can make maximum yield for the artist, but also like the users feel like it's not like being jammed down their throat. And then we also try to get people to subscribe, right? So our our RDMAC plus subscription has been growing steadily, you know, around the world, not just in Africa. And the people so people subscribing will equate to higher stream rates. But part of what I want to do here, and when I visit any country and on the continent, is how can we get artists from Rwanda in this case to be streamed in other in other places, right? Because that's that's how you get better advertising revenues and better stream payouts is by getting people in the US, Canada, UK, the you know, Oma, UAE, other parts of Europe, getting them to listen to your music in higher advertising rate areas, that's going to be higher stream rates. So someone in in Rwanda listening to Rwanda artists is great. We want that, but there's not a huge digital advertising demand in this country yet. Now, Nigeria, which is a very, very big country, has some of the best music in the world and best artists, also some of the worst advertising, right? It's you know, it's not the most, I would say, like there's room for improvement in terms of raising the economic status of people there. And we've done that. We've paid dozens of thousands of artists money.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

And and any, any, you know, and then some artists making tens of thousands of dollars a month.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

I guess I hear what you're saying, and I asked that question directly to these artists. I was like, okay, I don't know much about the streaming business. I did not know much about the music business. But I asked them a very simple question. I was like, okay, if you are, for example, say an ish cabin and your music is on one to three platforms, right? So Spotify, Apple, and say Audio Mac, I asked them, okay, where do you make the most amount of money per say a certain unit? And he told me that unfortunately Audio Mac per unit per stream gave the least amount. Was he wrong to assess it that way, or is there a reason that maybe an artist does not fully understand? Because I'm pretty sure that there are different metrics, different reasons that create this, I guess, these disparities.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Yeah, I mean, like, I I don't love to hear that, but if you took Audiomac out of those lists, would he make more or less money total? He would make less money, right? Like it's not like per unit is is not the goal. The goal is to make the most money possible. And if your product is in one store and you make the best unit economics in that store, or your product is in seven stores, each one with different unit economics, which were where are you gonna make the most money and where are you gonna get the most fans, right? Because first streaming rates is should not be the only thing an artist worked worries about. You know, I guess they're making money and they're you know, I guess people complain about hold on, people complain about making money from Spotify too. It's not like this is an Audiomac issue. A hundred percent. That's a big that's a big issue. And like the reason why you might make more on a on a different platform is because people are subscribing to that platform. You can't really go on another platform, you know, and pick what artists you want to hear and build playlists and provide all the utility that I pride that you you know that you want to do. You kind of have to like, you know, it's like a radio type of format or or it gets blocked or restricted, or this and that. Like we're we don't have a lot of friction. You know, it's a trade-off. Like, you know, if I wanted to build a product and have it be exactly like Spotify, I'm gonna lose.

SPEAKER_03 12:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

You know, so where's our angle as a business that's what we look at? What's our niche? All right, let's provide a platform that that is free for people that are unable to subscribe, right? So, like that artist that wants to make more per stream, does he not want that that 14-year-old kid who you know who can't can't subscribe to not become a fan? Because he might, he or she might grow up and then go to their concert, buy a merch, be the be a show their music. Like, do you want to give acquire fans or do you want to acquire units?

SPEAKER_03 13:28

I I guess very often, especially when you come from a disadvantaged background, you want to get to where you want to go as fast as you can. And and I understand what you're saying, and I I did not want to come off as you know, attacking this conference. That's not not that's not what I'm trying to do. It's because a lot of these conversations, um, I'm I I I use streaming services. Um, I'm on YouTube, and I do understand why, for example, part of my strategy is not just talking to, say, a Rwandan audience, because one, there's no monetized YouTube here. And so I make the most money if someone listens to my program in the US. And I understand that. Not everyone does. Yeah. Right? So very often we, you know, like as African creatives, we don't get a chance to talk to co-founders of our streaming platforms. We don't get a chance to fully understand the thinking behind them and the why. Right? So that was a question of understanding the why. Listen, I know just how annoying it is when, just in the middle of a really interesting conversation on YouTube, an ad appears. That frustration is why we've created the long-form Patreon for just $4 a month. You can enjoy ad-free listening, early access to conversations a full day before they're publicly released, and you're directly supporting the work that we do here. Every episode takes time, research, and sometimes plane tickets. We don't do it for money. We do it because we genuinely believe in sharing stories and conversations that matter. If you want to be part of that journey, you can join the long form Patreon by scanning the QR code that you can see right now on the screen or using the link in the description. And if membership is too much of an investment, you can still support us by making a one-time donation via our MTN Momo using the code registered under LF Media 95462. Thank you so much for believing in what we do. One thing I've realized as we build more of our lives and businesses online is that cybersecurity is something we simply cannot ignore. That's the reason I've partnered with Sheeltech Hub. Sheeltech Hub is one of Africa's leading cybersecurity companies helping businesses, institutions, and individuals stay protected in an increasingly digital world. I actually use one of their tools, Threat Informant, to help monitor for compromised accounts, leaked credentials, and potential exposure online. And what I like is that it's proactive. It helps you identify threats before they become real problems. Whether you're an entrepreneur, creator like me, business owner, or institution, digital security matters. And as Africa's digital ecosystem continues to grow, Shieldtech Hub is leading the charge in securing that future. You can learn more about Shieldtech Hub and their cybersecurity solutions by scanning the QR code or checking out the link in the description.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Yeah, I uh I understand that. Like I we make money when artists make money. Like our interests are aligned, which is different than the other platforms. The other platforms, they and sometimes record labels, there's a certain amount of money, and it's a it's a tug of war to see who gets more of it. Right? There someone gets 70%, the other person gets 30%, someone gets 60%, someone gets 40%, someone gets 80%, someone gets 20. That's not how it is for us. We it's a because we have a variable stream model, we put more advertising money into the pool, and that creates a bigger pie, not more slices of a the same size pie. You understand? So we, you know, when the advertising is good, you could make more than you would on YouTube, right? And YouTube is the the pinnacle of online advertising, Google, obviously. So, you know, we we've tried very hard, very hard to optimize yields. Again, we're incentivized to do it. I think getting if artist Rwanda wants to make more money, there's a couple of ways to do it through streaming. One, make sure the music is being played in those other markets where there is a more mature advertiser. Or let's encourage people to subscribe to Audio Mac Plus. You know, but we're Audio Mac is not the end all be all for an artist making money. We're just one piece of it. You know, what one thing that we do better than other platforms is help you generate fans, especially young, passionate fans. Our market and our listeners are young, passionate music fans that are not lean back listeners. They're lean forward, they're like interested in discovering a new artist, a new sound. So that's more valuable than a 0.05% increase in your stream. That young fan who's gonna champion you, tell all her friends about you, you know, go to your show, you know, but have your back. Those are those are who our listeners are. Like it's better than like a passive fan who just like here's your song in the playlist, can't even name your song, can't even name your your artist name, but you made 0.05 more per stream, which is like uh half of a penny, right?

SPEAKER_04 19:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

So that's how you got to look at it. Like there's there's there's value in the young fan that discovers you on Audio Mac. We're also trying to get you to have more fans. The other platforms, not the other platforms are trying to get people to listen longer to increase session time. That's all they want is you to be using a platform longer so that you're less likely to unsubscribe.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Let's let's talk about that. You're in a huge position of power. If I'm an artist, I understand there are things that could be done to push my music further than just my effort, just not just my talent. Is that something that you guys do to kind of like, okay, we want to push this genre of music here? Especially from the smaller markets, right? So you'll very often see if you come from a lot much larger media market, South Africa, say Nigeria, their music will go, will be pushed globally. Not because they make the best best music, it's just sometimes it's it's the algo. Is that something that you guys do? And is it something that say you do on purpose?

SPEAKER_02 20:32

So you're you're half right. Right. We we want to identify the the bigger the market is not necessarily like the you know a motivating factor. What there's a couple of reasons why we would like identify an artist or a sound or a scene, and we have a content- And then push it. Yeah, of course. Like we want to be different, we want to push the envelope. So we have a content strategy team that works with our curation team. We have human curators around the world. So like we're not just relying on AI, this stat to just like spoon feed people the same songs that you know everyone else is is is hearing and is sick of already. We want to like break an artist. So, like an art an artist from Rwanda that we did an artist watch for, that's the name of the series, meaning like this is an artist you need to keep out for, right? We did, I believe it's pronounced Kevin Cade. Are you familiar? No. See, look, I'm putting you on. Like, so you know, our curator listens, looks at data, looks at the artist. Is this is this artist ready for this type of series? Are they gonna support what the content and the effort and the the, you know, because we're making assets, we're getting doing interviews, or that's what we put this uh series together, artist watch. We also have you need to hear, which is sort of another way to highlight an artist that people need to hear. And then we have scenes you need to hear, like we did Molly and Rap. Was a scene that you need to hear, like crazy stuff going on in Mali, like drill, like what inspires people to make this type of music, or like Kevin Cade back to him. What why should I care about? Why do I need to hear this artist? So, like, we we build a case for this when we create essentially what you would see in a magazine. You know, we're old guys, right? Like, it used to be a magazine. That's how you discover artists. Like, I didn't just like have to sit back and like have the playlist algorithm. That's that that's not how we want to foster discovery, get people immersed in artists. Like, oh, what makes Kevin K tick? He's he's I'm not sure if he's from Kargali, but like I don't remember. But like, where's he from? What makes him tick? What makes his music different? You know, why should I care about this? And then like people read this and they become a fan. Like no other platform, streaming platform is doing this.

SPEAKER_03 22:54

But that gives you a lot of power. That gives you a lot of power and a lot of responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

It does. It's it's I'll tell you if our content strategy team, you know, it's it's a constant, you know, push and pull with our curators. Like, who should we who should we wield this power for, right? Like, and you know, it's data driven. Like, does this artist actually have traction? And like we're we're getting on early. So like traction doesn't mean like 50 million plays, like track traction could mean 50,000 plays, which for first song for a first artist is is a lot. You know, that is a blip in the radar, meaning like there should there's data indication that this artist is on the rise. But we also listen, is this move, is this music moving me? You know, like is this different? I think like Nigeria, for as successful as they've been on the international stage, like they're kind of in a rut. They're kind of making the same stuff, you know. And I hear this, this is what I'm being told by them, you know. So, like, well, how can we push, you know, how can we push the envelope? How can we challenge what you know is known as like the mainstream music right now? And that's what I was telling a lot of the artists yesterday at our event was like, you know what, like how to brand it, right? Like, I think that's what South African artists are good at, and even TZ as well. Like, they brand it, bungo flavor, like that makes me want to tap in, like bourgeois, you know, three-step, quantum sound, private school. These are all like versions of Ama Piano. Yeah, we have playlists for each one of them.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

Like that's something that we've we've maybe you think we've not been very good at.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Well, yeah. I mean, at least from my vantage point, like I don't I don't I don't know everything, but like I mean the numbers are the numbers, right? Yeah, like well, I think you have to there's there's nothing stopping an artist from Rwanda from becoming a global superstar, right? Especially majority of them are are in English, right? Which is I think it's also necessary. If you want to hit be out of the be globally, like you think so?

SPEAKER_03 25:11

I I think it's after all the success of the Nigerians, a lot of it's in English.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Renaboy? Yeah, I mean I know he's doing Europa and and but his songs are in English too. Like, I'm not saying abandon your your language and your culture, that's not what I'm saying. Uh I was I was in TZ, I met with Mario, who who's an amazing uh artist, you know, bongo RB artist. And he's he does English with Swahili. You know, he he he mixes it in, and that's one of the reasons why he's like one of the top artists. So like if you want someone in London uh to listen to you, or you want someone in in New York to listen to you, like it's not impossible. Like we listen to bad bunny, right?

SPEAKER_03 25:56

And I don't understand a word of it.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

I don't know a lot of people in New York do, like, right, because we're like a bilingual country basically, but like it doesn't, you know, uh make put some of your language in there, your dialect, your slang. Like people learning new slang is part of like the cool part of listening to music. Like, oh, the big songs, like you wouldn't hear what that slang is, but like you know, I would say like, but people do want to know what the song is about. Yeah, like it's important. Now, there's also dance music, which is less important to know what the song is about. It's more about like, can you can you get the the ladies to get up and dance? Like, that's what you make dance music for. Like, can you get people bouncing? You don't need to necessarily know, but it's still some catchy too. Like, and I think I'm a piano is good at that because I don't know what they're saying, yeah. And a lot of people, you know, it's 12 national languages in South Africa, so I don't know if they even know what they're saying half the time, but I'm a piano, there's a brand to it. Like, so I was telling artists yesterday, like, Brandon, you you've showing me the old Rwandan instruments, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

Gakwanda, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

I love that. Like, I'm I'm into that. Like, use that. That's something that I would stop scrolling for. I said, get one of these traditional instruments, get some cool old guy or girl to play this instrument and and rap on it or sing on it. I would stop to watch that. And then I was like, you know what, make 20 videos like this, put it on TikTok, you'll go viral.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

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SPEAKER_02 30:22

Okay, number one is work at your craft. Reps, reps, make hundred, write hundreds of songs. You know, you don't have to mix and master a hundred, but write hundreds of songs. You know, when you you sit there at the free throw line, you shoot hundreds of free throws each day, right? And eventually you'll you'll make most of them. Like same with an artist, you gotta make a lot of write a lot of songs, right? Number two is to build a community around your music. What do you mean? So one it's one thing to have a fan, it's another thing to have a member of your community. A member, a community is a two-way street, it's a it's a bi-directional street, meaning that you're participating in it. You're not on stage looking down at them. You're in you're with them.

SPEAKER_03 31:18

So and they're with you.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

And they're with you. You empathize with them, they they're you relate to them and you engage with them. So it doesn't mean just drop the song, put a link out, and walk away. Ask people a question, get them interested. Why did you make this song? What make this what's your favorite lyric of the song? You know, get people engaged. Like that's how you create a groundswell and do that locally. If you can't sell 100 tickets in your hometown, you're not ready to go global. You know, you're not ready to go continental. So you have to build a community, right? Which means engaging with fans, getting people involved, getting them to share your music. And your community might start with just your mom and your dad. Really, that's how it starts at first. Your brother, your sister, your cousin, you know, your neighbor, get people interested. And all right, that's two. Number three, make music that you want to hear. Not what other people want to hear, not what Nigerians want to hear, not what Ghanaians want to hear. Make music that you want to hear personally. What do you what would you play? If you make a song and you go into your car, you go on the bus, and you don't put the so last song you made to listen to it, it's not right. Right? So you have to make music that you want to hear that that that makes you tick. Like that moves you a hundred percent. Like, if it doesn't move you, it's not gonna move anybody, right? All right, those are three things. All right, four. Here's here's a more like tactical one. When you put a song out, promote it first before you drop it, and then promote it after you drop it. The song coming out is the middle part of it, right? So for you know, and this this with any any streaming service, some you know, it differs, but you want to if you distribute your music to every platform, do it, you have to put give it to them four weeks in advance. And when, you know, and when you if you want to get into a playlist on Audio Mac or any other service, send an email or you know, submit it. There's various ways, obviously, with each platform, and say, I think that my songs will be in this playlist because of this reason. Why?

SPEAKER_03 33:46

Send it to who?

SPEAKER_02 33:47

To the pla the curator of the playlist, to the playlist submission form. You know, each platform is different. You know, I know you know, find that person on social that manages the playlist that you want to be in. So do that four weeks in advance, three weeks in advance, promote it, tease it, make content. You know, you don't really, you know, it helps to have a big team, but all you need is a phone, you know, record content with the lyrics, record content with it in the background that you're doing something else. You know, there's three sort of buckets of content. One is you performing the song. Two, it's the song in the background where you're doing something completely different, but it's a hook that's a money watch. And three is the lyrics. So do those three things over and over and over and over again. Find the catchiest part of the song, the most, you know, the song, the hook, the the coolest bar, whatever, and and just push that over and over again. Instagram, tick tock, right? So, and do this after the song comes out. It should be like a two-month process.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

And let's see, number five. Is there any way make sure it's on audio Mac?

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Is there any way to one of the things that I've been learning as as I've continued my podcast journey is the I live and die by the way the algorithm sees the content that I create. For me, I primarily on say YouTube, right? That's where I I make uh I find the most movement and the algorithm is constantly changing. And I then constantly have to educate myself about about it and and how to ensure that I'm getting as much value as I can from the work. I wouldn't call it gaming the algorithm, but it's understanding the algorithm and and working with it. Is there a way to game the Audio Mac algorithm?

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Not really. You know, I'll I'm transparent. Like, you know, we have we value our human curators, right? So we all major most all of our playlists are made by humans. We still have you know, recommendation engines and algorithms that are, you know, if you go and you open up the app, song for you, playlist for you, that's a recommendation engine. It's based on your listening habits, it's based on what's popular in your local area, you know. So it's not really gaming, it's like just following protocols. So when you upload a song to Audio Mac, and this is other platforms. We did a whole webinar conversation about this that you could you could you could find if you go on Audio Mac's LinkedIn page where we post our live conversations. It's on our Instagram stuff too, but might be harder to find. But like metadata, make sure the song has all the credits in it, has all the genres in it, everything's embedded properly in the files, the right song artist, the right size. Like we give you all this information and in in our long live conversations that we've done, but you could just Google it too. How do I do you know, or I ask chat dbt or whoever, you know, so metadata is important, but on Audio Mac, go in, make sure your profile is completely filled out. You have opportunities to brand yourself and the image and the music, type of music that you make. So we have like a banner image, make sure it's the right size. You know, if you're from Rwanda, if Rwanda, from Kigali, like post a beautiful hilly skyline that I see, you know, when I'm driving up these hills, down these hills. That's cool. I'm from here, you know. New profile picture. Every time you release a new project or you're starting to roll out a new project, change all the images on all your social media and all your streaming platforms, update it. Yeah, the algorithm looks at that. You should do that with a podcast. Really? Update your logo frequently, like not like change it, but like different colorways, blah blah blah. The algorithms see that and they go, Oh, this is like this person's active, they're gonna be doing content. I'm gonna promote this.

SPEAKER_03 38:01

Really? Like, let's even for like sorry, just like I'm just curious. Even for like YouTube, like does 100% really, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

YouTube is a weird algorithm, like man, I'm trying to figure that out too, because we have a big YouTube channel, almost a million subscribers, where we drop exclusive video content a lot with artists in Africa, but around the world, and it is tough, you know. We we've we've had a lot of success, but YouTube would be like, oh man, this video, this is gonna hit, and then like it doesn't, it's it's so weird. Like it's like timing, consistency, like those are things that like the algorithms look at. But so we're we're starting metadata, updating your profile, put your hometown in, tag it with subgenres, moods. Like, you could do that in Audi Mac. Is it a love song? Tag it love, tag it sex, you know, from Rwanda, put that in there because our recommendation sees that you put Kigali, for example. If someone from Kigali opens up the app, it's more likely that song will show up. So, like, just like be be like like prodigious, right? Like just get in there and any field, fill it out. Fill it out, put a description, write a description of the song. We have a feature called Connect Messages, which you could do on our creator app, which is free, or you could do it on the website, and you could send a message to all your followers for free. You're not doing that on other platforms, you're not even doing that on Instagram. You you do a post on Instagram, five percent of the audience, five or ten percent sees it. And if they engage with it, it'll show tomorrow. If they don't, so like those those are some of the things you could do, but just like go in there and like learn it, like figure it out, like and just try, try, try, try, and don't worry about failing.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

Yeah, you know, I'm of a certain age where streaming is pretty new for me. And when I think about music and and how people consume music, streaming has really changed all that. But you'll find artists who argue that some of these platforms have turned music, which was how we felt, into content, which is what we consume, you know. Sometimes we'd say, you know, disposable, fast, you know, and just all about the algorithm, right? So what do you think about the argument that streaming has made music culture poorer and destroyed something really, really important, which is how people experience and live music?

SPEAKER_02 40:55

I I I agree. I agree with the argument, to be honest. Like, you know, we we do at Audiomac a lot of things to try to push push back at that. Like I was saying, we do this content series, like we have essentially like a blog or a magazine built in the streaming platform. So there's like ways to like touch the artist, learn about the artists, learn about the music. You're not gonna see that as much. Like maybe they have like a bio on the other platform, which it's it's cool. Like, I'm not even hating on that. Like, I I want to add that, but it's still like automated, programmatic. Like they just like bring it in, but it's not like really like humanly done, it's just like computers talking to each other. But I I you know what it is, like there's there's good parts about streaming, and there's there's there's bad parts.

SPEAKER_03 41:46

What are the bad parts?

SPEAKER_02 41:47

You just named some, like you know, it just there's so much, you know, like there's like a hundred two hundred thousand songs added to streaming services every day. You know, what what is that? Like a lot of it is AI nonsense too. Oh no, but even before all this AI, it was a lot. Like people like just uploading like rain sounds, like this there's millions of rain sounds, like they're all making money though. Some are, you know, but they shouldn't because like they're not really adding value, like, but you know, unless you have some really cool rain sounds. But you know, I was saying, like, we were talking about Drake, my colleagues and I. We we have a very, you know, very vibrant and exciting music conversations in our in our office, as you can imagine. And like, do you like Drake or hate Drake? Like, we were all talking about it. It was like there's a lack of monoculture, you know, because there's so many different songs, there's so many niches. Every song that's ever been recorded is on the streaming service, you know. So, like, no one's talking about the same thing. It's like, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, but Drake, we were talking about Drake, like we were talking about him and Kendrick, you know. We're big, like it's it's it's it's good to have a big artist to talk about, and everyone like can listen and and conversate about it, and like we could all be like joking and and like joking about it or giving our thoughts about it. Like, you don't necessarily get that in streaming as much as you used to. And but also like there's no gatekeeper making sure that everyone is talking about the same thing either. Like, I could go, there's so many, you know, there's so many opportunities for creators to like try to break out. You don't need to like kiss up to an AR or to like a music executive, like anymore. You could just like put it out and build your community and do some of the things I mentioned earlier. So, like, you know, there it's pros and cons. Like, I would I love that I could just open my phone and like listen, like like totally random, but like the monkeys, you know, that old group. No one washing these days. But like that song just came in my head and I was like, boom, boom, boom, I want to hear that song. But I guess you can, what am I gonna do? Like, what we're gonna go and put the record under the player and like look for it. I don't even have records here.

SPEAKER_03 44:12

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SPEAKER_01 44:46

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SPEAKER_01 45:28

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SPEAKER_03 45:33

I guess, you know, one of the things that I just realized, right? When I was younger and music, I would get my music from, you know, the American top 40. That that was like that was a big thing. The Rick D's, American top, you know, America's top 40. What that allowed me to do was to one, I was a hip-hop fan, but I'd also listen to rock. Then I'd also listen to country now because that was part of the Rick D's top 40. What I've realized is streaming services have done such a good job of understanding, say, Sunny, that I then don't get an opportunity to really discover new music.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

Not on Audio Mac you do. Like that your problem that you're saying now is like we've we've we've talked about that a lot at Audio Mac. That's why we have human curators, right? I have people that are making playlists. We also have a program called Tastemakers. So a tastemaker is someone on Audio Mac who's not an artist and they're not a fan. Well, they might be a fan, but they're distinguished on Audio Mac as a tastemaker. They have a plug emoji badge put onto their profile, and they get additional privileges to basically make the best type of music and curate the best type of music. And if you become a tastemaker, you could like apply on Audio Mac. And is you basically just have to maintain one play, at least one playlist once a month and make sure it's a different, unique type of playlist. It can't be like just the top songs or whatever. It has to be like a cool theme, has to be interesting, has to be different from what we already have, and we have a lot. And that playlist basically just puts on the same level as any of our admin curators. It's the same parody as that. And some of our tastemakers have tens of millions of plays on their playlists, and like get a lot of traction and a lot of comments, and they could really put artists on that they like. So like these are human, actual influencer tastemakers on the platform. And then, but that's a problem. It's it's an echo chamber.

SPEAKER_03 47:56

Yeah, right. Like, I mean, YouTube is the best at that.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

On Audi Mac, we we we do our best to get you out of your comfort zone.

SPEAKER_03 48:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

You know, you could go on our charts, click any country in the world. You could click on the US if you want your country music. Click, click the US. Okay, I'm gonna see the top music in the US. I'm gonna see Youngboy, I'm gonna see. Obviously, we have a lot of rap. We're known for hip-hop. But you're gonna see, you know, Ella Langley is a big hot country artist right now. You'll see Morgan Wein, you'll see, you know, Drake, you'll see Ashake, you'll see all types of music that's popular in that country. If you want to click on TZ, you'll see that. You want to click on Morocco, you'll see that. If you click on Germany, you'll see a lot of Ghanaian and Nigerian artists, not as much German yet, but that's what people in Germany on Audi Mac are listening to. So you want country, it's it's right there. So like I think we have a nice blend of like the best parts of a recommendation algorithm, but also we have the the humans that are putting that there for you. And then we have the content.

SPEAKER_03 49:02

Let's talk about AI. And not as just as a means of you know curating, but like actual, we're starting to see a lot of AI music.

SPEAKER_02 49:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

Is that something that worries you?

SPEAKER_02 49:17

It worries me a lot. I hate it. And when I mentioned before, how many songs are being put under streaming services every day? Like, we're very scared. I mean, Audi Mac, we're not a we don't have, we're not a completely full catalog. Like, we don't have every song in the world. We have most that people want. But man, that AI slop wave is coming. And like, luckily, we we have like guardrails to not have to take it, but Spotify doesn't. And it costs money to host all this music, to host billions of songs, right? Like, it costs it's a lot of money that we pay every month. Like, it's the cost of doing business. I'm not complaining, but like that slot is coming, and it's most of it is atrocious and terrible, and like should not we, we so it's not um it's not improbable that in the future the you're gonna have to pay to have your music on a streaming platform. Now I'm worried like as a distributor or a label, not like an individual.

SPEAKER_03 50:20

But like that probably will come in the future because we don't want all your slot, like we don't we don't want it like but you're calling it slop, and that that's the thing with what what what frightens me is that yes, it's slop today. Having AI five years from now still is it why why do you call it slop?

SPEAKER_02 50:42

Has no soul like I I'm not I'm not necessarily against I'm not against AI. Like if when I was talking about music rollouts before, like go to Chat GPT or Gemini or Claude and be like, here's my song, it's about this, build me a rollout. Like, do that, like that stuff's boring. Have the AI do the boring stuff, don't have it do the fun, creative stuff that makes us human. Like, do you know if AI is arguably being being used to make music for a while? Like, if you go on a drum pad and beat it out and then you quantize it, meaning like you it organized it into the four-step pattern or whatever. I'm not a producer, as well. I'm probably not using the right like words, but yeah, it it moves it over, right? Like it sets it up so that it's the right timing, the right B. Is that AI? Like, kind of, like like there's there's an artist in Nigeria who was putting songs down for a while, you know, was like kind of getting known, but not like breaking out or anything. He has a song that he put out, and now it's like huge in Nigeria. So I go to my curator, I'm like, hey, do you know this artist? He goes, Yeah, it's AI. How do you know? You go, well, the artist is an AI, but it's an AI song, it's a real person, which is different than the AI artist, which man, you want I can't, I don't like that at all. Like, oh, this is the AI artist, and then it's like a picture of a human. No, no, put a robot on the cover because that doesn't do what you show me is not what it made the music like. That's I hate that. That should be banned. Now, an artist, a real person using AI, what he did was basically like pitches music up a lot, and like it's not his voice, it's like an AI voice. You know, he might have wrote the song, but it's like an AI voice. Like, and I went and there's I could tell if it's AI, I plug it into these systems, and it goes, This is AI, this is 80% AI or whatever. And I and I plugged it in there, and my curator heard it, and he goes, He didn't check it. I checked it and he was right. So, like, kudos to him for being able to like understand AI immediately. But like he went, looked at his old songs, and he's like, This deep voice in Europa, and then the most recent song that's a hit is like it sounds like whizkit or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 53:16

But like but here's the thing though, and and sometimes you just have to kind of so you've told the story of that that Nigerian artist. So he was trying to break through probably for years and being honest with his art, and it wasn't working, and then he went into his computer and tweaked a few things and he's doing well. What does that say about value? Right? So that what what authenticity is and what the market will because he'd been trying, right? And then all of a sudden he cheats the process, but it works, and people dance and they download and he starts making money.

SPEAKER_02 54:12

You know what's gonna happen? There's gonna be demand for him to perform, and he's gonna go out on that stage, it's not gonna be what you heard, you know. It's and just you know, it's almost like a Ponzi scheme. Like, oh, it's everything's great until until you gotta be until someone asks for their money back, and then the house of cards falls apart. Like, you know, I don't I'm not that's the reason why I haven't said this artist, we haven't taken the song down, right? Like we talked about this. Some people were like, especially my curator, he's like, I will take this song down. I'm tired of like he like hates that, right? But then other people are like, well, people like the song, like people like to hear it. It's in our charts, meaning, like, you know, the charts is what the most popular songs are. Like, so basically, what we decided to do is that we're not gonna we're not gonna take it down, but we're not gonna promote it. We're not touching it, I'm not putting it in a playlist, we're not you know doing all the various things that we could do to promote a song. We're just gonna leave it there. And that's essentially like we're just like look the other way, basically. I don't people don't know that it's AI. Like all the all the people that like the song, they don't know that it is, and it makes them feel something. That's fine. Yeah, we didn't take that feeling away, you know. But I'm not I'm not pushing it either. Like, you know, he might have wrote the song's lyrics, which is and that's good. Uh maybe he didn't, I don't know. But hit someone reach out to me and like, oh, like what do you know this artist? And I I just do you want to do stuff? No, I don't know. So they what can they do? They're not gonna come and do any of our original content performance series. Like I just I want to see this person go on stage and see what happens when they open their mouth and start the sting, and the fans are like, you are the wrong person, you know.

SPEAKER_03 56:10

But yeah, I wanted to ask about the curators and and the the curation team. Because the way you make it sound is that these are very, very powerful people. They they I wouldn't say they guide the culture, but they kind of gatekeep it. Where are they from? Like, say, for example, let's say there are there's a curator who's handling music from East and Central Africa. Are they people from the region or is it another, we call them Zungus. People who look like you. Is it someone like who's not from the place? Right? Because that's that's a lot of the conversations we have today as Africans is the people who are the gatekeepers of these platforms are people who don't speak our language, who don't look like us, who don't understand us. It's someone who's a a liberal art major from Boston.

SPEAKER_02 57:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 57:13

Who's I'm just I'm just I'm just playing as you know, yeah. But it it's it's not again, it's not about AudioMec. It's it's what we've seen when it comes to the global system, is that very often when it comes to African art or even art from the global south, the people who curate that art, whether it's actually actual physical art or music, are people who don't look like us. And sometimes it's like who gave you the right?

SPEAKER_02 57:44

Yeah, I I understand that. You know, I have dozens of curators, you know, some are full-time employees, some are full-time contractors, some are part-time, some are part of a collective. Like there, there's it's hard to say that there's one type. Like, you know, I don't have I don't have a like a specialized Rwandan curator. You know, I want one. Like a lot of the people, the tastemakers that I mentioned become like work for us in some capacity. I have Nigeria, I have a curator in some are they Nigerians? Okay, yeah, yeah. My I have a specialized night, you know, we were very big there, so I have a specialized Nigerian curator, and he's been built up from you know not knowing how to do anything to but just having a good year to now he like he he had to change his phone number because people were harassing him.

SPEAKER_03 58:45

Because he understand just how powerful he was, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:47

Yeah, and you have he's just the Nigerian curator, like and he's not the only person that makes Nigerian playlists, like or playlists with Nigerian music in it, I should say, which is a lot. I have curated her in like Southern Africa. I have yeah, I have our South African curator is great from South Africa, yep, yeah. Her name is Pearl. I I cannot pronounce South African.

SPEAKER_03 59:11

No, it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 59:12

But she's she's amazing. I've had many over the years. You know, a lot of times people come and they're a curator, and then they end up putting that on a resume and they get a job in the music industry. And I I love I love that. They work at our competitors sometimes, which is fine.

SPEAKER_03 59:28

But anyone from our region who handles art, not again, not Rwanda, but but let's say East Africa Central.

SPEAKER_02 59:36

Part of the reason why I was in Tanzania was to like find a good one. We we've had some one, yeah. We we've I I don't know the exact like status, but we've had one in in Tanzania, who was like one of Diamond's right-hand men, like and he he's helped us get started in the in the region a lot and has been instrumental for us to like start to grow there. And we're not the number one streaming out there, we're number two. It's always like goes up and down. And other countries too. Like we have, I have people in in London, UK, I have people in the Netherlands, I have someone in the Philippines, I have someone in Mexico, I have someone in Brazil, Recio, and then I have US, I have a Canadian expert, you know. So I have like different different, and then they have networks. I have my Caribbean curator as like curators in St. Vincent, Barbados, Trinidad. Yeah, like she's like, she wants, she has a DJ who like she set up a whole program where like DJs like do all this different stuff for us, including makeup playlists, and you know, they're on our payroll and they do promotion, they do this, they engage the communities there, they they do YouTube shows with our logo in the background. Like, it's a lot, it's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:04

No, I'm actually super, super interested in that because one of the things with say Africa, and I mean that as a continent, 54 countries, 1.4 billion people. We were talking earlier, you're you're talking like just Congo itself has I don't know a hundred tribes, different music styles. Rwanda has as small as it is, you go to the northern part of Rwanda, there's a different dialect, you'll come to Kigali, the way people in Yamirambo speak and and use Kenya Ronda is different from uh people in the the West.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:47

How do you again? I'll answer it's the the taste makers. That's exactly why we set up the program. Because like if you came to us and you're like, man, uh Rambo Yamirambo. Namirambo, and you're like, I'm from Nira Neriambo, I make this type of music or I like this type of music. I want it to get spotlighted. Here's a playlist of all that. Boom, you're a tastemaker, and I'm sending a push notification to everyone in Rwanda, you know, hundreds of thousands of people, about your playlist. That's all you need to do. And then I'll make you a tastemaker, you could build up your brand. You know, we have like clothing brands do this, we have like different companies do this.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:28

I guess for me, yeah. There's the taste makers, right? So that's I'll call them at the most primary level. The curators are the people who then get the music from a very specific, you know, genre, subgenre, to then pushing it much further, right? So if if you're a tastemaker in in Nigeria, right? So they have a population of 100 plus million.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

220.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:56

There you go. That's a lot of people. Yeah. So if you have a Nigerian playlist and your music is being pushed there, you're good as an artist. Versus, say, a Rondon artist, our population, 14 million. If that's as far as it goes, you're not making real money. You need to do what the Nigerians were able to do, or the South Africans and take it continental. And I think that's where, you know, the the who is putting pushing this out to a much larger audience. And that person who can understand the culture can understand why this is important is yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:45

We we have four on and playlists, which is probably three more than any other platform, uh, or four. And one of them is four million, I think four million plays on it, you know, which is a lot. That's pretty good. And I would take more, you know, but again, like a how much we time should we devote to this? Yeah, there's 54 countries in Africa. So, like, you know, we have a finite amount of resources. You have to figure out how to how to apply that to each market. Now, granted, I'm here, you know, Charlotte is here. We did an event here, like we we care, right? Like it's more more events than most companies have done. We I plan on coming back. I think like Rwanda punches above its weight. It really does, like for the amount of people that are here, like and the amount of impact it has in the region. I think that you know, there's there's more to go for sure, but you guys are on the right path. Like, uh, you know, like and we're gonna, it's gonna be more too after I leave and I, you know, we we s we start to work and figure out how to all the things we talk about, all the meetings we've had, like how can we get next steps and move forward?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:02

No, I can't I can't wait until you open an office here.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:07

It's possible, like they like an East African office. Like the first step would be like, yeah, can we can we get like a full-time person? We might do it in DAR, you know, which would cover the region uh potentially. And then like we have like, you know, my Latin music curator, like she'll go to Dominican Republic, she'll go to Puerto Rico, she'll go to Colombia, like, you know, she'll stop. You know, go to Mexico, obviously. I have a specialized person there too, but you know, you gotta go around and and and meet with people and and do business and talk to artists and make content and set up press. You know, we're we're limited. Like you asked me before how many employees we had off camera. You know, we have 50.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:54

You know, we have maybe 80.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:55

Which is crazy because for the amount of work that you do and I I thought you would tell me hundreds, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:03

Like we can't afford that. You know, like there's actually the margin, the problem margins in music streaming is not like amazing, uh, to be honest. Like it's a very thin margin. So you when you scale without getting a huge, you know, a huge investment, you have to do it brick by brick, you know, employee by employee, curator by curator, and just expand out. We're not even, you know, we don't even focus on every country in the world. I mentioned the Philippines, it's our first country in Asia. You know, we're we're doing stuff in India right now, but you know, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:41

I'm just really interested, like you've said something that got me thinking. For the for the the size of our market and the fact that you've taken time, you could have been anywhere, but you're here. Why?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:02

Well, I think Kigali has established its itself as like a a big continental player for business. Like there's a ton of conferences going on this week. I was at the BAL summit. I'm a huge basketball fan, and I like the BAL a lot. I I believe in the in the league, and I think it's gonna grow. And I like love that. Obviously, uh Africa has a lot of musical talent, but a lot of athletic talent. Like the best soccer players or football players are African. There's no reason why they couldn't be the you know, already the best basketball players too. You know, Giannis, Wembenyama, you know, Joel Embiid, they're they're of African descent, you know, one sh one generation removed from so yeah, once once the BAL gets big, like it's it could, you know, it's gonna end it's gonna bring a lot of players, even more players in the NBA. And I think NBA players will come here as well to play. Like sort of like how like Messi came to enter Miami to play in his like twilight years. I think that'll happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:08

I mean, right now, one of the best, probably the best player right now this season is a guy from the G League. Right? So I I think uh he's called Randall.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:19

The G League has ballers. Oh, Chas on Randall. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was I was watching him. I was watching that game.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:25

He plays for the RSSB Tigers from Ronda.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:28

Yeah, yeah. That that's great. I think people, I think young guys will come here and play for a couple years, then go to the ends of the drafts, like you know, so I'm excited about about that. And that's all because Kigali has a world-class stadium, you know, where you could play these games and have a good fan experience. You know, there's a CEO summit, the Qatari princes here in Oftel, like some big time people coming here. And you know, it's it's open for business. So I I I you know, we talked, that was the first question you asked. Like that's that's attractive to a company, a businessman like me, is that yeah, we could come here and have like proper proper business meetings and and advance advance our own business interests, you know, and that that's that's helpful for for our country. And I don't know if you're doing that in other African countries as much.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:21

Yeah, yeah. You know, uh talking about let's go back to I know we had gone on a tangent talking basketball, and um I know that's probably your first love, probably even more than music. Go next. You know, I'm I'm big on ownership, right? Who owns the art? I think you've kind of gotten that energy from me. And I look at you know, Afrobeats and and the music coming out of Africa, and it's for the longest time it wasn't given its due. But now it's you know, it's you you you walk, you're able to if you're uh Davido, you're uh WizKid, you're Omale, Thames, uh Taila, you're you're you walk into Wembley and you can sell 80,000 tickets. They can go to the Madison Square Gardens and and sell twenty thousand, easy. But when you look very, very closely, Africa doesn't really own much of the infrastructure, right? So we have the artists, but we don't own the labels, we don't own the platforms, we own, we don't own the distribution, and I think even more dangerously, we don't own the capital that's funding all these things. So then if we don't own any of these things, who do you think controls African music right now?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:59

Hmm. I mean, that's such a broad, broad question. Like, you know, so many different countries here, like it's each each country has different situations. I know you want to you want a hot take, but uh no, no, which I like to give. No, uh, but no, I'm thinking about it, I'm thinking out loud, like you know, I think what what has helped African artists is the rise of the independent artist. You could be an independent artist now, you don't need a major label, right? Because if you ask that question in other countries, I would say the major labels own own it. They they have influence and control all the music. You know, they control what music gets played, what move movies, what get gets played in on streaming services, they they control, you know, where the artist goes, what they're allowed to do. What how they dress. Yeah, I mean, live nation in the US, you know, which is a big touring company and ticketing company, they own music in the US and other countries too. And some people want to break it up because it's a monopoly and it probably should, something should happen, probably. But I'll tell you, having that infrastructure has you know is pretty useful. And I spoke with some folks here. Africa needs a better touring circuit, you know, because if I'm like you always see, like, oh, like Shali Poppy's coming here, Nigerian artists, to do a show. That's cool, but like why aren't there tours?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:44

Like, we don't have stadiums, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:46

There's no stadiums, there's there's no like the logistics traveling is is not as I think it's gotten better, to be honest, since I started coming here in the late part of the last decade. But you know, that you know, the promoters need to work together, the booking agents need to work to work together. A lot of the money comes from touring for an artist, like you know, it's not gonna come from streaming, you know. That's really sort of an ancillary thing, even for the biggest artists. So I don't know if there's any one particular owner. There definitely needs to be an infusion of capital. I know labels that have come into Africa spent a lot of money, and then they go, We're not getting an ROI in this, even though the artists have been gotten big. What are they doing wrong? I mean, part of what you said, you know, why the streaming rates aren't great here. It's you know, I'll take some responsibility, right? Like we we we're doing the best we can to increase stream rates, right? Because you get higher streaming rates, then the artists will get better advances from the labels because they're know that they're gonna get money back. Oh, that's why a lot of the labels invest in artists that are bigger in the diaspora and bigger in other countries that could go on tour in other countries, like what you were saying. You know, so there's there's work to be done. Like I am pretty bullish on the future. I think there's more investment coming into Africa. Africa's the youngest, you know, continent, right? By like a lot. Nigeria is the youngest country in the world, and and and Africa as a as a continent is the youngest. I think it's gonna one in four people are gonna be African in 2050. So, like there's reasons to be bullish and optimistic. I think mobile money is a really big deal. Like, we're looking to integrate more of mobile money. What does that mean in the long term? And for the the macro point of view, is like, all right, people it's easier for them to subscribe. They can subscribe, the stream rates go up. The stream rates go up, artists can get investment and get advances. They can get investment and advances, they can become bigger globally. Like these things are all connected, right? You know, oh I know I can make money from streaming at least a little bit more. I'm gonna get I'm gonna invest in this. Um then as artists get invested, and then the production gets better, and then the production, like we were talking about in in in Tanzania, like why is the production not as good as West Africa? They kept asking. Like we had I spoke with a label person and they go, Oh, we had an AR meeting. People play music from around the world, like their favorite song. I'm like, oh, it sounds like a fun meeting. And like, here's who we signed, here's our next single, right? And then the the Tanzanian person goes and it's like just not, it's just doesn't hit, it's not mastered as well. It doesn't, the production isn't there compared to other countries. So, like, they need investment. And I talked with one of the biggest producers in TZ Lizer, a very dope producer, and like he's doing everything he can. He's he's getting artists, show him he's showing other producers how to produce the way that he does and like make professional sounding records, you know, professional to other countries, other regions. So I think like there's all these things are connected, right? The touring, the streaming, the investment, the infrastructure, all these things are are are connected. Audiumac is just one cog in the wheel, right? But I think we're we're providing stability, getting artists paid, getting them to be recognized globally, getting them playlisted, doing all the things we do. And that's just, you know, that's one one piece of the puzzle.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:49

You know, when I when I get the chance to sit down with people who've actually built things, which is what you're and you're and your brothers were able to do, which was to build something. Uh I like to ask a question about I'm curious about how the sausage is made. And everyone, like every obviously the success is is known, right? We we see it, you know, a working platform with millions and millions and millions of songs, people like enjoy it. But there is a larger story about a certain amount of resilience, a certain amount of stubbornness that comes into play. I mean, you've been you've building you've built Audio Mac into a global player competing against YouTube, against against Spotify. This is billion-dollar companies, like multi-billion dollar companies. That must that's just that was not easy. I don't think that was easy. And I'm pretty sure they were hard times difficult times. Times when you said, you know what, I I don't want to do this anymore. Talk about that. Talk about the times when you genuinely thought this company will not make it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:29

We you know, we never we never thought that. Really? If I if I did, I would say, because that that makes for a great, you know, act one, act two, act three story. But I think like we're pretty resilient. We I think we were probably conservative with how we grew the company. We didn't take any major risks, you know. We we we only got we got investment, you know, when we didn't really need investment, but it was available and obviously it was actually good when COVID hit that we had that. So it but we we we're relative. I we're too conservative. I, you know, my partners and I, we, we clash about how conservative we should be, especially because I'm the marketing guy and I want to spend. Uh, you know, and you know, our our other people want to be more conservative, you know, we're only spending money that we have with profit. We're not gonna, we're not gonna go underwater. If we're if things are you know getting dicey, we got to lay people off, you know, which we had to do, which is a very very hard part of being you know a business owner is having to let people go. You know, it kills morale, you feel bad doing it. It's always that's the toughest part. But when we look at the other companies, the big trillion dollar companies, like you know, I always say Apple. Apple Music could care less if they make music profitable. Apple Music they don't care about making Apple Music profitable. Doesn't matter, it's irrelevant. They make more money selling AirPods than all the streaming services combined make a year. So you have AirPods, right? Yeah, me too. So like you're competing against a company that doesn't care, but look at it on the other side of the coin. They don't care. Yeah, we care, we we care and generally like are passionate about what we do. You know, Spotify, we're a thorn in their side, like we they they don't love us, right? Like, especially they spent a lot of money in Africa trying to get people to do Spotify, they throw fancy events, you know. And I'm not really hating on them because I I I I think they have a good product, and I think artists should be on Spotify. Like, don't put it only on Audi Mac, put it there too. Promote Spotify, go for it. Like, I want artists to be successful. Like, use Audi Mac will help you use other platforms too. But they're they're what we would consider big cruise boats, you know. When they want to turn, it takes a long time. We're a speed boat, we could zip around, we could circle the cruise ship. We're very nimble, we're agile, we could we could innovate quick. We have a feature called audio mod. People love it, and basically what you could do is modify the music. So, what's popular on YouTube and and audio Mac and other platforms is like sped up, slowed down, nightcore, daycore. These are basically like modifications of of songs. We have that built into the app. Like if I was listening to a Bruce DeFurst song, Holy, that's my favorite Rwanda song with Aerial Ways, too. I could go ahead, you know what, this is a little slow. I want to speed this up. I'm on the treadmill. I want I need to speed this up. I need a higher tempo, but I like the song. Boom, speed it up, press a button, you could adjust it, cut us custom, and change how you you you you how you hear a song, you know. And I've been doing that when I get sick of a song, I was like, man, how many times can I listen to Sis uh album? And then I like put it on sped up, and it was like it was high, it was new, yeah, yeah. You could slow it down, you could you there's all these modifications, like it's it's check it out. Again, this is free. If you want to do more modifications, subscribe. Artists will get paid more, right? But Spotify have been trying to like copy us on this feature for like years, they just like haven't done it yet. I know from sources that they've they've saw this, saw that we innovated a new way to consume music and engage users and listeners. And they they were they were upset that we did this, but too too bad. You know, we were we we made it quick, and they'll come out with it eventually, I guess. And I'm sure it'll be really cool. They spent all this time on it. I'll probably be like, wow, they actually did this as well. But we've had it out for like over a year, so a lot of people like that. People go and share their things, you know. That's just an example of like how we can innovate, how we could do things quick, how we could change, you know, change on the dime if we if necessary. But I think we really care about the music. Like we are my curators are passionate, like so much that like we have data, right? And actually, our tastemakers have these this data available to them. They could look at a playlist, they could see how many people finished each song in a playlist, how many people listened to each song for 30 seconds, how many people engaged the song, meaning like liked it or added it to a playlist. How many people, you know, what percentage of plays did your playlist drive for the total amount of plays of a song? We call that stream impact. So, like a teacemaker could go to an artist and be like, you know that hairfinger plays an audio mech from my playlist? Yeah, there's a number of I want to ask you.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:17

Yeah. So I asked you about the dark times, and you said, eh, not really. I mean, and and then and then again. I understand that. So let's talk about success. No, I mean you talk about bad times. No, no, yeah, no, no, no, no. Let's talk about success. How has success changed you?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:42

No one's asked me that. I I don't I don't think it's changed me that much. You know, like, you know, we it's funny thing. I was saying, like, my my partner is CEO, Dave Maclee. Do you know that like when we get deliveries to the office, like Amazon deliveries for like drinks? Like, I I I unpack them and I put all the drinks in the fridge, you know, and then I get I'll get all the boxes and put them up and I and I set it up for our our you know, we have a cleaning person who takes the garbage out and does stuff like that. I but I set it up for her, like so that it's easy, you know. If the garbage is full, I'll take I'll take the garbage out and put a new bag in. What I what I like if an artist is thirsty, you know, they're doing a performance for us, I'll ask them, do you need water? And I'll get them water.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:35

The reason I was asking the reason I was asking, it's not about you know, success, failure does not just affect you financially, it also affects you psychologically, like and how you see yourself. But so does success. Success is not just a series of, oh, I haven't changed, I'm still, you know, same old G. But it also says it tells you something about yourself and and I make good decisions. I was right all along, right? Especially as an entrepreneur, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:17

Isn't that uh that sense of haha. We didn't really, we didn't really it wasn't really like that. No, it really, it really wasn't like I know a lot of entrepreneurs do that. Like, oh, like, you know, blue ocean strategy, like it's a book and it's about like I identified this whole market that was untapped. Like there's a whole blue ocean in front of me. No, like we we didn't we didn't be like, oh, we're starting a streaming service to like compete with Spotify. It Spotify didn't exist in the US when we came out with Audi Mac. You know, we've been around since 2012. We've grown like one to five percent every year. Like we never had hockey stick growth, they recall. It was uh grew really we step by step. It really was step by step, and that's rare. Like in a tech was or a tech company, right? Like tech companies usually like they grow really fast and they crash really fast, you know. You know, you it's partly because we did not raise capital until we were already established company, like I mean it wasn't even a lot, like in the in the scheme of things. Because we don't want other people telling us what to do. Like when that's you you make a deal with the devil when you do work with a VC firm or whatever company that might invest, like they're in control now. They're the captain now.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:43

We don't we don't want that. We because we like my partners and I like we don't we we we like what we do, you know. We're not of course we want to make money, we're a business. We you know, we need to I live in New York City, I need to make money to keep up. Yeah, I'm not gonna sit here and and and and cap about like making money is is not one of our interests, of course, but like we truly do like love music. I want to put artists on, like I love, I want a notch in my belt. I broke that artist, or I helped break that artist, right? Like have an artist come to me and be like, you guys were so important to getting to where I am today. I really do for that. Like I really do. And I, you know, I'm a curator. I have my own playlists. I always have my own playlist. I manage some of our trending sections, which is you know, songs that we think are hot right now. It's sort of like just an ongoing playlist. Each country or region, not each country, but most a lot of individual countries and most regions have their own trending playlist, trending sections, which takes a human to go and put that on there. I I you know, we I've been a curator my whole life. You know, I I made playlists for my parties in college, I made people mixtapes.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:04

You know, you love music.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:05

People come to me to say, what should I hear? And I love that. Like I'll give them as much music as tell they tell me stop. You know. So no, I I was not, I don't think we I was right. I don't this is our first, this is the first business I made. I'm lucky, I really am. Like, I could probably start another business and oh tank. Hold on, but don't if you're gonna want to invest in me in the future, don't listen to that. No, but like, yeah, we're we're we're we are different. We're we're different in a lot of ways than than the other founders, other entrepreneurs that you know not in there, not in it for the right reason a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:47

This is the last question, and I'll go back to Africa's place in music because you do seem like you're you're there that intersection between music, culture, and money. So last couple of years, I think has been, you know, I'd say that the last decade has been the decade of African artistry, you know, other than Drake, who's obviously Drake and and and and Beyoncé. But in the global zeitgeist, Africa has really taken its place. And I always worry that with every wave, there's also a down season. And you were talking about it earlier about you know Nigeria and how there's a challenge in okay, we've had our moment, we want to continue this moment. How do we continue to innovate in terms of sound? I I maybe I'm a pessimist, but I'm worried that when we look back to the this era that we're in, we'll realize that it was a moment in time that came and went. And we didn't do as Africans, as African artists, we didn't do enough to seize the moment, to make it more than just a hot what what's a Jay-Z line on on I won't mention the song. You made it, you made it a hot line. I made it a hot song.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:44

I the takeover. Take over uh Jay-Z. I'm worried that someone else will make African artists will make it a hotline, and someone else will make it a hot song. Um I'm worried about that. I'm worried that a decade from now people will say, we didn't do enough. There wasn't enough investment made. There were the artists didn't work hard enough. We didn't make enough partnerships, we didn't curate the playlists that we needed to. Am I being a pessimist? Or is it something really you think so?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:27

Yeah, I think you know, you have to uh manifest your destiny.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:33

Very American.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:35

It is, you know, and I think you know, America is a business, not a country, it's a business. And there's good parts and bad parts of that, but I wouldn't worry about that. I I think I think people in Africa are optimistic, besides you, I guess. No, like I I really do. Like I I think people here are generally pretty optimistic and and have positive attitudes, right? Yeah, and in a lot I haven't been everywhere, but in the places I've been. And I think one thing that should hopefully stem the pessimistic wave that you're starting is the penetration of mobile phones. You could do anything on a smartphone, and you could do anything, just a little bit of Wi-Fi. You can create a banking system, which is very critical to the success of the continent 10 years, 20 years from now. You can, you know, I know 5G, 4G, 5G penetration is getting higher and higher. Hopefully, data rates start to go down, down. And then when you have internet access, then you have a device, you can make a song, you know, you can coordinate a business deal, you could logistically do things, you could you could communicate with the rest of the world. And you know, I think you can educate yourself. I forgot that, right? Like, I was actually shocked to learn in in in Tanzania you have to pay to go to school. I was I was shocked about that. Like, that's not fair. Like every kid should be able to go to school, like you know, but unfortunately, I guess it's not like that. I mean, you obviously you pay taxes and you go into school and in like the US and other countries, which is you're kind of paying for school, I get it. But like, but like I think you can if you have the desire and you have the fortitude to be able to go and try something and learn something. I also think AI, I've been I've been like totally bashing it, but like it actually is very helpful for doing things like that. Like, I don't know how to do this. What do I need to do? Build a program for me to learn how to do this. This is a big deal in history, in human history. Like, I don't want to just be like, right? Like, if I'm a young kid in Kenya or I'm a young kid in Rwanda, any country in DRC, I don't have a lot of resources, I don't have a lot of money, I don't have a lot of structure, I don't have a lot of support. Like, if you're able to get those things and you have the the desire to learn something. A smartphone, the tools are available, you know. You know, you could go and sneak into a cafe, get their Wi-Fi, and and figure something out. What's the best way I can make you know $100 in the next month? Like it'll give you ideas, and some of it might be good. You know, how do I promote my song that I made so I can make money from streaming? You know, maybe you only make 10 bucks, but that ten dollars is actually kind of a lot, you know, to people in some countries, and that that could help, you know, that could that could help get a new shirt for the music video, whatever. Like so it it it's a it's a it's a great, it's an iterative process. But I I don't know if you know how this relates to music. The reason why I say them all that is like the support system to be able to highlight the talent so that the right artists can get in front of the right listeners and tastemakers and and music executives and booking agents so that they can elevate their career and elevate the art and elevate their experience that they've led up to this point. That's kind of one reason why I think Nigeria is they have numbers. Don't forget that. Like it's hard to compare Rwanda and Nigeria, they have 10 times more people, so they're going to have more artists. Let's be honest, right? I said that to people in Ghana that I got booed off the stage, but I was like, let the the big countries are gonna be good, like they're gonna have a lot of good artists. Doesn't mean you can't, but just like of course they're gonna have big, a lot of artists there. Like the US has a lot of people that's gonna have a lot of big artists. But I think the the Nigerians have stories to tell. Not that people here don't, I'm I'm not saying that at all, but like when you have a when you have a tough upbringing, sometimes that makes the best music. You know, if you look at history, the best music scenes, genres, they come from areas where there's strife, there's struggle. I have an interesting story to tell about my experience. Like, who wants to hear like some rich kid rapping? You know, it's not that interesting. Although there are some that that are big. But like, no, I want to hear the real stuff. I want to hear like a the real experience, you know, about someone's life, what the struggle that that that you know that interests me, that type of music, you know, that that that's real, you know. I don't care about that other stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:33

So well, on that note, maybe let me end this with a maybe a note of positivity based off of what you just said. Okay, good. If music is about strife and struggle, then I think the future is truly African.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:53

I'll take that.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:56

And overcoming that. No, I mean music could be about a lot of things, but I I did listen, maybe, maybe that's the case. I I don't know. Like sometimes it's you know how to how to see the beauty in in things, right? Like I don't I don't mean just like talking about how tough your life is. Uh that's not what I mean, but coming from that, I mean that gives that you get bringing that energy to whatever you are writing songs about. Sometimes it's about good positive things, love, gospel, whatever. Like it could be anything, but it it's more genuine, you know, and it's relatable to a lot of people as well. So maybe, maybe that's true, you know. Maybe all that we said is true.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:48

Dave. Thank you so much for joining me today. My very first music exec.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:56

Wow. Yeah, I'm honored and humble. Big deal. Thanks for so much so much for having me on on the podcast, Sani. And this is gonna be on Audio Mac, right? We're gonna set you up. Perfect. I'm gonna we're gonna get you some listeners on Audio Mac. And no, it was a pleasure being here. Great questions. I love the the format. You know, I could I could loquaciously talk for a while. Uh, hopefully people, you know, got something out of this. Yeah, something good. And you know, I I'm truly thankful that you had me on.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:32

And I and I think it's really important that people like you speak to audiences like my mine, right? We don't really very often we consume it's usually a one-sided conversation, right? So it's you guys and and and not you, but like the platforms and the CEOs and the big business talking to the Africans and never uh a conversation and hearing back from us. So it's super important. And we're I'm personally super thankful that the artists, the Ishkevens, the Bruces were able to sit down with you and just kind of break bread and and and and have a drink and share a laugh. And it's important and and I I just want you to continue doing it because I think the stories and experiences that you'll share can potentially change people's lives. The work that you do to platform people and platform young people, it's super important. And just for me, thank you so much for doing the work that you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:43

I I I appreciate that. And thank you for doing the work that you do as well. And we're we're we're not done. There's still a lot to do. There's a lot of work to do, so let me get to that.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:55

Amen to that. Thank you so much. And that's a wrap for today's conversation. Thanks for staying with us till the very end. It really means a lot. I'd love to know what was the one moment that really stood out to you? Drop it in the comments so that we can keep the discussion going. If you want to connect with us beyond YouTube or streaming platforms, you can find us on the social media platform of your choice. And if this has sparked something for you, share it with a friend who'd love it too. Until next time, have a great week. Thank you, Kigali Marriott Hotel, for providing a venue for the long form podcast to record. At the heart of Kigali's hospitality, Kigali Marriott offers everything from luxury stays to premiere event spaces, fine dining, and top tier conference facilities. Keep up with them at Kigali Marriott on socials and visit their website, www.marriot.com.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:58

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