#11 What's Sex Education For Young Children? With Ruth Dollinger

What's a healthy doctor and patient game look like (what are some red flags that there is something awkward going on?) Or When is the time to interfere when kids are wrestling? 

Ruth Dollinger, a Sex Educator for nearly a decade, who has been involved in informal education for almost  20 years, is touching on this sensitive topic: SEX Education. Ruth explains what is sex education, what is the earliest a parent can introduce the topic, and how  (a hint- from the time your child is born :-) and when is the time to cover yourself up even in your own house...

Ruth is also a mother of three,  and in recent years she added the title of parenting coach while figuring out how to parent her own.  Ruth testifies she is an expert in making Mac & Cheese from a box and has a never-ending pile of laundry at home. You are welcome to follow ruth on Facebook and Instagram and connect by email.

Recommended Sex ed resources:

•  Planned Parenthood
•  Sex Positive Families
• A kids company
• Who has what?  Robie H.Harris (also has a great book explaining where babies come from)

Related episodes:
Why setting personal boundaries are so important? 
What are the six types of personal boundaries?

Follow my Instagram for more parenting content or connect by email- tell me what are your challenges and what other topics would you like the show to cover!

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As a certified parent coach, I aim to help you set boundaries with compassion.
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Remember to treat yourself and your children with compassion and curiosity. 🫶

Transcript

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Tammy: 0:00

Hey Ruth, how are you?

Ruth: 0:01

And so good. Thank you so much, Tammy, for having me.

Tammy: 0:04

Oh, I am the one who needs to thank you for taking the time and talking about sex education, so let's start with what is sexy the UK.

Ruth: 0:14

That is a great question. So sex education much like any type of education is helping gain information and skills in order to make the best decision about ourselves and specifically sex education is also making the best decisions for us within our relationships. so we're all born as sexual beings who have. Over the course of our lifetime, understand what our body can and cannot do and understanding how to navigate ourselves within a variety of relationships. I like thinking that we're all born into a sense of self and we basically, from the minute a baby exits the body, they are surrounded by touch and we are creating a lot of intimacy. And over the years, the intimacy and touch also gets a sexuality aspect to it. I know that the podcast is mostly meant for much younger kids, sexuality, as a very abstract concept, doesn't actually start. Until adolescence. And that can be 11, 12, 13, 14. There's a lot of physiology that needs to happen in order for sex and sexuality to become the performance and the act of what we know as adults and what is our sex and sexuality for younger kids, for children, touch and intimacy,, fulfill the other things. It doesn't have to do with what we as adults, attached to what sex and sexuality is. So basing this completely off of like the planned parenthood website, who are very much like the leading and also giving out all the information. It is helping gain information and skills in order to make best decisions about themselves and about themselves within relationships. I will also say that sex education as a concept is something that changes per society. And our values actually dictate our values, our religion or society. What is acceptable to talk about taboos, and et cetera, has, plays a very big role in how we can consume set information and where we can get information and good information. And that's true for kids. And it's true for adults as well. For us helping our children navigate anything in life, actually.

Tammy: 2:17

I like how you made it clear that there is The physical boundaries that we have, and that kids are just discovering their buddy and the, we are, as at all, it's just making the connection between sexuality and their need of discovering their body. And might be the reason that we tend not to talk about as much. And that leads me to the next question, which is what is the earliest a parent can introduce this topic to a child

Ruth: 2:44

The day, they come home with the hospital, with their baby. It is never too early to start any type of conversation, because mostly it means that you, as the adult who needs to kind of hold all the frameworks together, you're the one who's practicing this conversation for when it's actually relevant. Right so when you come home from the hospital, You have a tiny little baby, but you can still practice. I'm now opening your diaper to change you. Right? You can practice the whole, who is going to be picking you up. Oh, it's meat, they recognize there's actually fascinating studies over like babies recognizing their parents' voices or recognizing like the adults that were around, So like who is picking you up that later becomes the conversation of who can touch you? Is it your doctor? Is it your grandparents? Is it your aunts and uncles? Is it your cousins? Is your teacher that can change your diaper at school?. Cause then we also interest other adults with our children and when we send them to daycare and to babysitters, if they are not potty trained or even if they are potty trained by the time that they can wipe themselves or someone you want to have someone like double-check, who's allowed to touch me. who were the other adults that there has been a conversation about body. it can also be, having a conversation around eight, nine months babies, the whole like stranger danger dive that then all of a sudden they don't want to go to anyone else and they're attack. they're Claus, all of a sudden dig into your shoulders. that can also be the beginning of what happens when they're like two and three and four. And all of a sudden kids are shy. Oh, you don't feel safe just yet. That's okay. I'm here or look, who you want to be next to. Right. And , you can reframe it. Not as, oh, no. They're just being shy here. Go give grandma a kiss, but that's okay. When you're ready, you can go say, hello, how amazing is it Tammy? That you know your body? And you know, when you're ready I have my six year old twins, a boy and a girl. And my son is , completely he'll walk into the space and be like, hello. I am here and I'm ready to party. And my daughter likes to very much scan the room and see kind of what's going on. And I'm also very much like that. So that's fine. My mother-in-law and my mother both are like, oh, , it takes her so much time to like warm up. And she and kids here, how we talk about them rather, we're aware of it or not. And then we as their parents who want to like prepare them for the real world and set them up for success, even at the age of one and two and three can say, how amazing is it that you want to , see your surroundings and feel comfortable in order to know that you can go away and that I'm still around or that your dad is over there or that the person right. Your babysitter is right here. And that's, , your teachers are there. Yeah. Support you, your grandparents are there to love you., but you don't have to have the same relationship with every single person. And then when we're like, as we were joking, kind of before you started the recording about guilt, it's like, oh, so you're not going to go hug your grandmother, but look, they brought you a new bulb. Oh, you're not going to go sit on your uncle's lap. for me, it was a real learning curve at one point where my sister was coming up and she was going to just take the, like one of my kids on my hands. And I just took a step back. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to probably put them down in a minute if they come to you. That's great. And that was a conversation that also my kid who was probably 18 months at the time, got to hear another adult saying, you know who you are and it's not because at 18 months they could comprehend the depth and the philosophy of what this means. But now that my kid is six she knows, That at no point am I going to make her do something where she feels unsafe? I'm not going to guilt her into giving someone a hug and she doesn't run up and hug everybody now. And that's hers to decide for us how long she wants to do that or not, , and if we, like, go to a family function or friends we walk in and everybody's hi. Hi. Hi. And she's just going to stand next to me for a bit, And it has a lot to do with the fact that she has always heard that message. She has always heard that, she knows her body. It's the same with like how much food are you going to eat? Like, do you have to finish your whole plate before you can get up? What kind of message do they later? If they're already full and they've had enough, can they say no? it is very much of your kids at the playground and running around and climbing on something. It's not warning them. Be careful. It's asking them if they feel safe or what's the plan for your feet. So it has, a lot to do with understanding my own physical boundaries. So if I know I feel safe doing something, that's a little daring that's because it's me. It doesn't mean I can do it everywhere, but I'm making a child pause because later in life they will be able to stop and say, do I feel safe? Do I have a plan? Do I know if my body can do this? Do I know if I feel like I can do this? Do I feel hungry? Do I feel satisfied?, does this feel good in my body? Does this not feel good? And those conversations have a lot to do with how we also talk about them in this space with them and about them

Tammy: 7:09

So it's clear that the physical boundary has a lot to do with respect your child to express whatever they want or do not want to do. There was one thing I want to ask you., terminology? Do you use, when you talk to your child about, you know, he's, private area,

Ruth: 7:27

That's a really good thing to practice from the day you come home from a hospital, right? I'm opening your diaper. I'm going to take a wipey. It might feel cold, so again, when you come home from the hospital, it's like, this is going to feel cold and we're going to change your diaper and are you warm? And it's more so we can also just have that part of our language. And so it's, I'm going to take the white beat, and now I'm going to wipe your tush and I'm going to wipe your Volvo or your vagina because both of those can be very interchangeable, even though they're different body parts are in a wipe, your penis. And it's super important. Just like we call this, this is an eye, this is a nose.. This is my hair.. This is my vulva. This is my tush.. All of a sudden, anything that gets covered by a bathing suit becomes covered. And as if it doesn't exist and it's private, which is true and it should be private and you should be the person 100% of the time who decides, you know, who and where and how you share. That private aspect of your life. But I think if we don't give our kids the actual words, then how can they then know how to get the right word? Because it's not like someone else is going to teach it until later when they can hear a older sibling of a friend. And if we want to be the gatekeepers of information as the parents, so first of all, you know what they know. And second of all, later I talk about like setting them up for success later. They can tell their partner. I like my armpit tickled. I don't like my armpit tickled. I like, my glitter is being touched a certain way. I like my penis and he held a certain weight., and this is monthly or this is this is for like sex 16, 17, 18, and so forth. But also, and this is the one red flag. God forbid we have a concern and God forbid, we're worried that something happened or, you know what, not even to an extremely, they fell at the playground and it happens. And they say, I hurt my privates. What does that mean? Did a stick accidentally like scratch, , one of your labia lips, does that mean that. You fell on your testicles? And if they don't know the word, they can't even pinpoint. And I will probably only be allowed to use this example for a little bit longer, but all little kids get worms, right? Like that's just the most disgusting thing about parenting, probably that in lice, the grossest thing in the world, but when a four-year-old could wake me up in the middle of the night and said, I feel like I'll have something in my vagina. I knew exactly what I was looking for. But I'm itchy can be a variety of things. Also, it's a lot harder to go to a doctor and say, I'm itchy rather than I feel like I have an itch, on my outer lips or I feel like inside I'm itchy. And it also hurts when I pee. And then this is just giving them more words order to know their bodies also to be able to communicate what it is that they like and, or need. And also, if you think it's going to be embarrassing, teaching a two-year-old, the word, Volvo or penis or vagina, it'll be a lot more embarrassing when they're 12 or 13 and you have to have that conversation with them. And it's the practice, right? Practice makes better. And if I'm sitting anyway, like my three-year-old is running around naked most of today, just because , he's three and he wanted to be naked, and his body is just his body and he's running around. So it's not like there wasn't an educational opportunity for me. If I wanted to start and be like, oh, I can see your knee tax and I can see your touch It's just the body part . We sexualize it once. We're older,

Tammy: 10:34

you just touch something really interesting. First I get that. We need to start talking about the actual parts in our body and make sure we tell them as long as it's under the bathing suit, that's your private area. So that's first thing. And then the second thing would be, you're actually starting to ask for a consent. You don't call it that way, but that's what you model for them. And that's what they experience inside their house. So as soon as they go out, they will get that. That's a red flag. He touches me without even asking for permission. So I've really liked that. And you just mentioned your son going naked in the house. And I want to ask you since we agreed that the house is like his lab and we want to set those boundaries in the house. So how would you establish those physical boundaries in the house?

Ruth: 11:22

That's a really good question because it's like the one place that we get to just be ourselves as adults, or as human beings is our house. Like that's, everyone's safe place. And then you also have kids there that kind of like run around and then ruin, ruin everything. don't get me wrong. I love my kids, but we spend so much time together., Tammy: you need some so my big

Tammy: 11:40

symptom.

Ruth: 11:41

I need a lot. I mean, it's, it's been a week., my kids are great

Tammy: 11:45

Most of the time.

Ruth: 11:46

Most of the time they're sleeping now. So they're like fabulous,, boundaries, much like a lot of things are dictated by what we know and what we think should be happening. Boundaries are very subjective and that's a very controversial, thought boundaries are subjective. My boundaries are not the same as yours. Certain things, society can come and say, this is where we have drawn the line. But even though it was almost always, there's an example or an exclusion, or like you can find a loophole. So it's important for me to say, because each family is going to find the way to do things different. So I think one of the really good examples, and this is a colleague who she uses this a lot and she talks about kids who run around naked in the house. Right? So I'm currently living in Israel. Israel is a very hot country, We get like three months of the year where it's actually cold and the rest of you, it's just hot so kids tend to run

Tammy: 12:38

the parents it's more than 100 Fahrenheit. So , it's really hot.

Ruth: 12:42

Just an it's like may., and it only gets hotter. kids tend to run around naked a lot more here than they do in the states. And also in the states, it varies from different state to state. It's not uncommon to see younger kids running around only in their underwear. It let's say. Central park where all the fountains and everything become public water, water waterholes. and that would be a big difference than let's say Oregon or Missouri or Texas. If there's a big cultural aspect, I'm like, what is considered acceptable behavior. So within each household, it has a lot to do with when parents become uncomfortable. When we started the conversation and I said, sexuality, doesn't become a theme until puberty actually hits, . the of sexuality and the need to discover my own sexuality and what feels nice in a sexual way to reach an orgasm and to get some sense of relief that doesn't happen until you're an actual person in puberty. So for kids, their body is just their. which means if you're sitting on the couch and you feel uncomfortable because your two-year-old has their hand in their diaper, it's not because they're masturbating the same way that an adult is masturbating, but you see that you're uncomfortable. So that means that that's the adult's red flag to say, this is a boundary, right? We are in a public space within our family. And that's the point where you have a conversation. That's great that your self discovery and that's great that this feels nice for you. That is something that you get to do on your own. Just like an adult. Isn't going to masturbate in front of a child, again, whole other podcast, also big red flag. So my colleague uses the example of, showers, , a lot of parents take showers with their kids. It saves time. Everybody gets clean. It's easy. but different families have different roles. So for instance, a mother might be comfortable showering with kids of any gender and any socks. And a father might only feel comfortable with their sons and that is a boundary that, that family sets, or it might be common for some families, for the parents to also be extremely comfortable being naked around their children.. It's hot. I want to take my shirt off and just walk around, like in a bralette, very trendy these days anyway. So why not? And then it's a fine line because when my kids will be like, well, why are you doing that? And we brought our friends. Ha like these are conversations that you also kind of have to prepare yourself that at some point they're going to happen. So kind of the rule of thumb in a lot of cases where like nudity in the house is when your kids are starting to notice it. That's the point where the adults have to take the responsibility and kind of cover up.. Because it can get confusing not in a sexual way. And look, the bottom line is, and I think this is true for like every single podcast that you've done. It is always the parent's responsibility to be the one holding the boundaries. It is always someone else's job to check said boundaries and boundaries. Aren't a bad thing. Boundaries teach us also what we love. They also teach us where we're safe, not only what to protect, and it has a lot to do with expectations. So somewhere around the age of between seven and eight, depending on the kid, depending on the family is the hang of the rule of them. Like stop showering with your kid because their cognitive abilities become more sophisticated and they can ask harder questions. also it's a lot to do with. Teaching them to do things on their own. So showers are always a really good opportunity of like you get, to bathe yourself, you get responsibility for your body. It's not something that I can take away from you going back to consent without saying consent. and also for parents, at some point they're not just little kids, right? Their bodies grow. And even if they're just six, but they can still be really big, tall six year olds. is that something that as a parent, I'm still comfortable being around the same level of naked? I will also say that around the age of six to eight, which is kind of the cutoff of little kids in big heads, but pre-puberty, that's a really good opportunity to start closing the doors., cause walking in when opening the door is a different thing than walking in and the door is open. So one is an active, walking in there is if the door's not closed, not that it's an invitation to have other people come in, but you haven't created the barrier of what we do is our private experience. It creates a sense of intimacy for the couple, which a lot of the times you don't get with the younger kids in general, because someone went the bed and someone sick or families that co-sleep right. You have to kind of figure out how you as a couple, also go back to your intimate. And teach that to your kids. Some things become private again for your parents and some things, all conversation that you can listen to sometimes it's this way. And sometimes it's that, also you're always allowed to change your mind and what works for you. At one point you can change if it works otherwise,

Tammy: 17:05

I like that each person can set the boundary for himself. sometimes the kids could be naked, but it's clear that the parents are not going only with underwear. So each house is making his own boundaries. And I also thought about, for example, dancing then is also a language. So when you put the music on and you dance a certain way, this is another sort of a message you give your son same goes with when I'm dressing to go outside. It's also a clear message for my kids. How do I show up in the world?

Ruth: 17:38

Yeah. Look we perform differently in different realms that are alive, right? The way that I speak to a group of Israeli parents is different than when I speak to an American parents. It's a different way than I speak. If it's a mixed couple, it's a different way. If I'm having a conversation, that's purely about anatomy and it's different way of, if I'm, working in a corporate world you come home and your house is supposed to be your safe place, where you can. Drop your guards and, , the ongoing meme of like, I get to take my bra off and kick my shoes off and kind of sit and be, and I don't have to worry and I don't have to work and I don't have to think. The thing is there's other people that live in our house, My partner or my kids, my dog, if we have a babysitter, there's always someone who's kind of in and out. And so it's important to understand, my boundaries are my boundaries and there are certain boundaries that we set as a family and certain rules and certain traditions that we've adopted. But that doesn't mean that it's true for everyone , at any given time. And certain things that were acceptable in society. Aren't acceptable now in certain things that we have been pushing to , promote and have a conversation about. That's great. And I think like this is an unrelated subject, but my kids have had a conversation about. For years, it drives my car, drives him crazy because he's not ready to have that conversation, but I'm like, this is a practice. And I will practice it with my kids so they know what that means, right? They understand that other kids in their classes don't and that's fine. Also, , this is a less depressing thing. I swear a lot. I have a potty mouth, like there's really no other way of saying it. And that is something that in my house, I do not want to have to restrict so much more what comes out of it. My kids know how to use F U C K and S H I T. And Jesus Christ perfectly in a sentence. And that is. Okay. But then the conversation that comes with that is, these are things that we get to that you get to say in this house, but not all the kids get to see that in their house. And so just be aware of when it is that you were actually using that word and then letting their teachers know that these are words that they have actually learned from their house., but it's an easy,

Tammy: 19:38

to pause here because I like what you say, whatever boundaries you set in the house, you talk about what is acceptable outside of the house. You make it really clear that it might be okay to go naked in our house. But when we go out, we have to cover, for example, our private area, which is The common thing that everyone agrees.

Ruth: 19:58

I mean these, like, it doesn't sound like it's a very practical kind of like, oh, so you just do EDC and Z because it requires a lot of understanding what our values are, which are harder conversations to have when you were sleep deprived. It's also understanding that things change depending on the town you're living in and the city, and also how loud our external voices and our expectations. It also has a lot to do with making a United front between you and your partner or the other parents. Because I come from a very specific type of household with all of that baggage. My partner comes from a completely other type of household with all of that baggage. And we're trying to figure out who we are as parents while trying to save up for all the therapy that our kids will probably need down the line. So, setting it up in a way that. We're allowing them to explore who they are in a safer environment. Right? So certain things you can do with this house, different houses have different rules, kind of. That's like a, it's one of my mantras in general, especially like if you're going to a play date , you're going to the playground. You're going to school. Different places have different rules, some things that are acceptable in our house. You can say feck in our house., no one is going to send you anywhere. If you say that here, maybe not a grandma and grandpa's house, or maybe not at your friend's house. Okay. Grandma was not the best example because they know who their child is But other friends don't say that.. And this is how a lot to do with, I was like developing their emotional intelligence, not just sexuality, but when you understand boundaries in that way, it's a lot easier to understand that other people will have different reactions. You can't control other people's reactions. The only person you can control is yourself. And man, I think is really the key to understanding any boundary. but look again, when things are talked about, you're going to lose an element of shame. Your kids will learn that you become a reliable source of information, which is super important because as a parent, you want to be the person that manages to translate the information of the world, to them in a way that they understand and the one thing that they're going to constantly have to recheck, and you want to give them the tools to do is where are they with all the information that they absorb? Where are they in social interactions? Where are they in their relationships where. When they're discovering their body and they understand how to self-soothe and they understand where their body feels emotions. Even meet, like when I get mad, I get really tense. How does that feel?, can I understand that, and these are questions that the more you practice them, the more you model them, the more you teach them, the easier it is to have that conversation with yourself in the long run and the easier it is to then help someone else navigate where your pleasure points are and feel more of a sense of autonomy.

Tammy: 22:31

I wanted to step in, cause we talked about, adults treating and asking for consent. But what I want to touch on peers, relationship, for example, if my kid is playing, doctor and patient, or they're just, wrestling in the grass, where is the time that I need to step in it and kind of communicate or, interfere

Ruth: 22:53

It's depending on the situation. Let's take two kids that go to the same. Playgroup since they were 18 months old, then they end up at the same preschool class. They go to the same school. They're now six or seven and they're really just rough with each other. They've always been rough. They have a really close relationship. You know, the parents almost like cousin, sibling dynamic, you've already known these kids in different settings. So you get to the point where it's like, someone's gonna like poke their eye out with a stick you're playing so rough. So you have to gauge when it's going to be too much and pause it and teach the kids how to pause and be like, do you feel safe? What's the plan, all the questions that you've been seeing out loud for 20 other times. what's really interesting about childhood relationships. As only around three, they learn how to play with each other and then they'll play through experiences that they've had in their life. So they'll play school and they'll play doctor and they'll play family, right? Because those are usually the three major life events that they have going on. Nothing about it is sexual. It's all modeling dynamics, that they're processing. We're going to talk about red flags. It's when something feels really off, when there might Not age appropriate manipulation, where like something feels a little funky. That

Tammy: 24:06

like if they, if someone asked from the other person to be, near. they playing doctor and he was like, yeah. go naked. So for me as a parent, that would be like, why would he ask him to

Ruth: 24:16

So that's when the adult comes in and be lit. This, isn't the place where we get to be naked. We're in a park, not appropriate. So it has a lot to do with like the setting that we're in, the kids that they're playing with. Also, if it's like a really big age gap, if we're talking like an eight or a nine or a 10 year old, that's playing with two or three-year-old in an inappropriate manner, not like watching, you're kind of following the lead of the younger kid. But if they're leading the game that can be questioned.

Tammy: 24:41

inequality.

Ruth: 24:43

Right. So if it's not equal power, that can tend to be something also, when something seems extremely sexual, that tends to be a pretty solid red flag of there were probably some exposure to inappropriate content and they're trying to process it through game is usually how kids process things. As parents, I need to know, what are all the red flags and how to deal with them and how do we figure things out? Because it's our job to keep our kids safe. And it is the hardest thing to do, . Because we teach them a lot through when they start walking, it's like, you're going to fall. And then they go to an electric socket and it's like, Or don't pull the dog's tail or watch it on the steps. Right., we were very reactive towards anything that's new. And then when it comes to sex and sexuality, it's like, we can't talk about, or that's not for your age or that's private and you don't need to know about that. And at some point it becomes very fear-driven and the red flags tend to be like, well, I need to know what the boundaries and the perimeters are of like what's considered normal. Most things are considered normal. And if something doesn't really align with your values and kind of the conversations that you have been having with your kids and where your kids are even kind of I don't necessarily want to play with this kid. Those are pretty good indicators. Again, it's not that there's been like some kind of abuse. That's something's a little bit off that maybe they don't play really nicely together, or maybe your kid doesn't like that kid. And as much as. I have fallen in love with other parents and be like, I want to be your friends. If our kids don't get along. And then, you know what, I have to find the time to go have coffee with my friends or, each family gets a babysitter. You can't force a play date. It just doesn't work. And teaching our kids to recognize that about other people around them, by the way, that's a really big deal of I like how they make me feel, or I like how they listen. Right? Like that game that we get to play with them. Sometimes we like it more. Sometimes we live at that loss. So anything that doesn't feel like it. Worrisome, shall we say anything that feels kind of like natural or expected, or that we've seen our kid do before? All of that? Just like, that would be your baseline. So, touching themselves completely normal, kids are also easily distracted. So , if your three-year-old sitting on the couch and you can be like, oh, what's that on the TV,, they don't make a conduction, but their hand might be all of a sudden out of their diaper. when things are very clearly not, okay, those are really easy to, to notice, right? Like if a kid is extra violent or if a six year old is biting people who are not as siblings, then , there's something that's a little bit off. And also it has a lot to do with our own parental intuition and our gut. Again, this doesn't necessarily have to do with being sexually. This could also just be that they were exposed like that their parent handed them their phone without deleting the search before, which COVID has been great for that. and then there's a lot of understanding that gray area when it's inappropriate, but not red flag per se kind of like a gray

Tammy: 27:25

It's I guess it's like inappropriate for the age, dealing

Ruth: 27:30

inappropriate. Right. And so they're inappropriate for the age or inappropriate for the surroundings. So surroundings would be. Getting naked at school, not in the purpose of changing their clothes. And it also has a lot to do with, does it repeat itself over time? If it's a one-time thing for maybe like two or three, and again, this is very a lenient approach happens like once or twice, and you're not entirely sure. That's one, you can always ask the kid, , I'm a big believer of oh, good question. Where do you think? and then waiting for them to fill in that, pause or what did you mean by that? Or I noticed that you did. And where does that kind of, fall in a lot of learning about boundaries, right? It has a lot to do with like repetition. So if he doesn't want. And there was a big reaction probably you've learned at once. But if it happens like, again, because either I didn't know what to say, or I didn't want to say right that whole like, oh, this isn't my place. Yeah. The adults are the ones who hold the boundaries. The adults are the one who navigates the conversation and it is our job to help them understand that expectation. So behaviors.

, Tammy: 28:30

to help them understand how to advocate for them themselves. Even saying, I don't feel comfortable you're doing it. Or that you speak another game because I don't feel, as much fun doing it.

Ruth: 28:41

Right. That's like the bottom line is giving your kids the ability to say no, without also having to explain themselves like no is a full sentence by giving

Tammy: 28:49

Validate the no.

Ruth: 28:51

Great validate the, no, it's a lot easier for them. And then God forbid something happened and they were either touched over time.. And this has a lot to do. We didn't know at school didn't know, or there was something or just even kids were exploring. And we were trying to figure out what exactly happened. We've given them the vocabulary to say where it was and how it was, and to help them understand maybe the confusion that's attached to it. Because if we're going to spend 20 minutes trying to understand what exactly that means that they saw your underwear because they saw my privates. But what does privates mean? Then we get a lot more frustrated and a lot more uncomfortable. And then we try to ease that uncomfortable by getting an actual answer. But we can't get an actual answer because no, one's speaking the same language. I hope no one ever has to deal with this. There are also really phenomenal organizations out there. And each state has different guidelines for stuff, but , if you are concerned, like what are signs you should look for and look with, and this is true with any violence, there's usually a really big step back in their behavior in general. so there'll be a lot more acting out, but also a lot more clamming up and there'll be a lot more some things will become an obsession. The constant itch, constant having your hand in your pants, or like trying to peek into your bathroom, or like trying to get under your shirt to see where things are. There's a point where it becomes a more than it should be. And that point changes for each kid. And that's where the parent part of how well do you know your child to notice those fine little changes over time? If something happens, , they started wetting the bed more or are they eating more or are they talking less? Are they clinger more?

Tammy: 30:24

Well, what I really get that when you see a changes and it starts step-by-step, but then you see a more aggressive behavior or more obsession about certain things specifically with body and cleaning that those might be really red flags. And I feel like if we put those boundaries, those clear boundaries, , then the kid gets the red flags. That's what I am hoping as parents that if they know so IT's clear for them that no one touches their private area, that if someone even start talking about it, it will be a red flag that, you know, it will be sort of an instinct saying, I shouldn't be. Not talking to this person anymore, just go away. And then talk to someone adults. Tell them what happened. So you are not alone. You can have support.

Ruth: 31:11

absolutely. I think in general, like even as an adult and I've been involved with sex ed probably for, almost say a solid 15 years. There are certain things in life that we are not sat down and like actually talk through no one sits and talks to you about your body, right? Non sits and talks to you about like pleasure, no one sits and talks to you about the changes that happen. I mean, maybe for girls, , at least when I was in sixth grade, the school nurse came and showed us how a tampon works by putting it in a cup and freaking everybody up. Now the vagina is not the size of a cup and the tampon cannot expand that. But it took me many years later to understand that, And we live with so many messages of what is acceptable and what is not, and how our parents have talked to us. If at all, About something that becomes a really big part of our development, we feel connection. We feel love, we feel intimacy. We feel wanted and needed and desired but there are so many different things that happened through our body and through how we deal with it. And , why not have these conversations from day one? Why not practice and get better? So when my kid is 15 and is starting to have a conversation,, are they ready for intercourse? Or can they deal with the responsibility that comes around that I'm not starting with stuttering the word vagina out of mine. Because if I have to stutter at the age of 15, besides the embarrassment and my child being completely mortified, we've skipped a whole stage of where they've even getting their information from. It's always really easy to look at extremes, but if I'm giving the information, that's also in line with like my values and what I want my child to learn and to be developed and the person, I hope that they become so fine. So they'll have on learning to do is who they turn into. But, if you don't have any conversations and you also don't understand how to ask the questions. Do I believe in this, do I not believe in this? Do I want this? And anything extreme is going to be very much like this is a red flag. This is not right. This is accepted. this is the expectation of you as a woman, as a mother, as a partner. I mean, this is a message that I've heard my friends say,. I'll take one for the team. Like if I'm not entirely in the mood, like, okay, I get it. It's kind of like what we do as a couple, somewhere along the way, it was okay for you to ignore your body signaling something. It was okay to ignore your nose. That even if you didn't want to do something, it kind of needed to do it

Tammy: 33:33

and it's for both genders. I would say we need to really emphasize that.

Ruth: 33:38

It's true for all genders. And unfortunately For grills, the messaging that's attached is the more submissive and did you really mean that and what is your no actually mean? And for boys, unfortunately for them, they have to be completely disconnected from anything emotional. And they're only allowed to go around and fuck around and they don't need connection and they don't need feelings and it's everybody needs both conversations need to be happening. And that's definitely something that's changed over the last few years. And I hope that the generation that is now growing up also grows up with more representation of a variety of options and a lot of different things. But I think also for parents, that's why we also really want to understand what the boundaries. Where are the flags, where are the boundaries? And it's so hard to just be able to kind of teach if also I've never, Never had a sex talk, never had a conversation about death. Never had a conversation about filling out my taxes.

Tammy: 34:29

Yeah.

Ruth: 34:29

also When kids come and ask us questions, they're trying to make sense of something that they were exposed to. It's not a challenge against our authority. It's more of like, what does this mean? So if , they're asking , what is a vagina or how do babies come to the world? So a big component is only answer what's being asked. No one needs a diagram. No one needs like a whole, , 10 minute Ted talk. Also, they have very short attention spans. So good luck having a 25 minute conversation short and sweet is the way to go again also, re-establishing the whole, I am a source of information that you can come and talk to, but also a really powerful tool when you don't know something and saying, huh, that's a good question. I don't know. We can figure this out together or this sounds really interesting. What do you think? Or why are you asking? And then it could be, oh, my teacher is pregnant or this person just had a baby or someone said this, or someone said that they were adopted. Especially for parents who have teenagers that are really trying to understand, like, are they normal? They'll come and be like, well, when was your first class? The big secret is it has nothing to do with you. And it has everything to do with the person asking the question. And if we think about that also being true when the three-year-old or five-year-old or six for eight year old comes and asks us something, then it doesn't have to do with There's going to be a lot of embarrassment. And we'll probably feel like we got completely caught off guard, but if they're just asking, because they heard something and they're trying to process it, then that's what's going on. It doesn't have to do with, why do these, you know, when I had my first kiss or what are they going to think? They're not thinking of you. They're trying to understand where they are, according to their normal, with someone that they trust and I've had conversations with, right? Also the sex talk. It's not one talk like everybody kind of portrays it. It's like it's one big dramatic conversation. Your parents sit you down at the dining table, right? This is also how every single sit-com has described this. And it's not because if we've been having these conversations with, I'm going to open your diaper and I'm going to. And then it's, I'm allowed to change your diaper. Your teacher's . And the doctor is allowed to take your diaper off, that's the foundation that later you're going to go on and talk about actual consent was saying the word consent and actual boundaries was saying the were boundaries and actual, , your testes will drop when they're 13 and then your voice will change or you might get your period. You're setting a foundation to have bigger parts of the conversation at later points.

Tammy: 36:43

Yeah, from my experience, it's the same. As you said, you? come with all the info, , not the sixth Althea part of it just don't know how to tell me part of it. And , I'm ready to do it. And then you get that the child is not there at all. They're just staring at you, mommy, what do you want? Know me? And then I realized, okay, I just needed take it just step by step. Just a little bit to say. And then couple of months later, they might come back to you and say, mommy, remember we used said something about that. So what is it? So what are you trying to tell me back then? So it's, so it's this it plant the seeds.

Ruth: 37:20

Right. You're dropping breadcrumbs that, that are there. Sometimes parts of these conversations need to happen because you talking about fear, right? You want them to know who they turn to? Who are the significant adults, it's like a big thing in parenting, right? It's my kid can have a tantrum on the floor, but if that floor is the middle of the parking lot, I need to pick that up. And I will not wait for consent. And then I will tell my kid, I am going to pick you up right now. This is not safe. And even taking away the element of consent, I'm still acknowledging what's going on. It's not, I'm deciding I have the power I am going on. And that's a conversation that happens when they're two. But then if it's later, when they're 12 and I have to make a medical decision with them, they have words, they have feelings. They have an inner world at that point. But sometimes the adult has to make the decisions. Not sometimes all the times the adults have to make the decisions, but our kids get to feel validated and heard within that process. And that's true for anything and even more so when you're dealing with more complex conversations like sex and sexuality, when they have questions, like what is gaming? I'm sure kids in Florida are having that conversation all day. And what does that mean? That someone in my class has two mommies for two daddies because representation also matters and they get to see these things. And I think that's a wonderful thing, but it also means that we have to kind of understand that there will be other things out in the world that as parents, we need to be able to translate that experience for them and help them come to terms with what does that mean? Nine out of 10 times, it has nothing to do with the parent, everything to do with the inner workings of the child.

Tammy: 38:53

I like that. Do you want to add anything before we end the conversation?

Ruth: 38:58

It has been a privilege to have this conversation with you. I talk a lot and there's a lot of information out there and some of it can feel overwhelming and some of it'll just. There's no one way to approach any big topic. And it has a lot to do with where you are with it, where you think your kids are with it. And what also aligns with the values that you have at that moment. And if it is something that you were completely like, okay, I want to have this conversation. There are phenomenal resources and people out there that will help and support you find the right way of having any conversation at home. And also practice makes better. There's no, right in each kid will have a different conversation and a different focus. And like I said, I have six year old twins. They're not the same person. They're literally came out the same minute, but they are not the same person. And the conversation with them also changes. And I like, this because it always gives me a different example And for a really long time, my son was very concerned. where did he come out from? And he was like, just really trying to figure that out because I just had his little brother. And what does that mean? That I had surgery and cause he's trying to make sense of the world. So then I have nothing to do with me and everything to understand why mommy wasn't around for three days. And that was like what was going on underneath taking a really deep breath, asking questions back and being curious and knowing how to pause before you rush to give an answer the only practical tools that you need for any harder conversation.

Tammy: 40:23

I like it a lot. And also. Before you practice and get better. I think parents needs to kind of go through what the question they want to answer on what terminology they want to use and what are the red flags and think about the values. And you really helped us to organize our thoughts around this. So I want to thank you so much for your expertise that you shared with us. So thank you so so much,

Ruth: 40:46

thank you for making information.

Tammy: 40:49

Thank you for helping me making that happen.