Why is sleep so important?
Can you make up for “missing sleeping hours?
When a child can sleep without wetting his bed?
How much time should it take for your child to fall asleep?
Deborah Winters is a licensed clinical social worker (from Adelphi University), parent educator (certified trainer in STEP; Systematic Training for Effective Parenting), and an ADHD-CCSP (Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder-Certified Clinical Services Provider) professional. And in addition to all that she supports families in her clinic who need sleep therapy!
So in this episode, you can learn from her what’s happening in the brain as we sleep, why some of us are night owls and some are early birds, and what practices you can use to from healthy routing habits!
Deborah has so much more to say, so have a look at her Website, Instagram or Facebook. She's providing free content and online and in-person services!
You also want to check in:
You can help more parents to gain parenting tools!
HOW?
👍Subscribe
👍Rate ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ :-)
👍Share it with friends and family
And most importantly, treat yourself and your kids with compassion and curiosity :-)
New offer!
Free Parent Talk around Healthy Boundaries.
As a certified parent coach, I can help you own your parenting style!
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Why is sleep so important?
Can you make up for “missing sleeping hours?
When a child can sleep without wetting his bed?
How much time should it take for your child to fall asleep?
Deborah Winters is a licensed clinical social worker (from Adelphi University), parent educator (certified trainer in STEP; Systematic Training for Effective Parenting), and an ADHD-CCSP (Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder-Certified Clinical Services Provider) professional. And in addition to all that she supports families in her clinic who need sleep therapy!
So in this episode, you can learn from her what’s happening in the brain as we sleep, why some of us are night owls and some are early birds, and what practices you can use to from healthy routing habits!
Deborah has so much more to say, so have a look at her Website, Instagram or Facebook. She's providing free content and online and in-person services!
You also want to check in:
You can help more parents to gain parenting tools!
HOW?
👍Subscribe
👍Rate ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ :-)
👍Share it with friends and family
And most importantly, treat yourself and your kids with compassion and curiosity :-)
New offer!
Free Parent Talk around Healthy Boundaries.
As a certified parent coach, I can help you own your parenting style!
Want to connect?
Join the Bonding Boost Newsletter (We'll keep it short & sweet)!
Well, I love talking about sleep, so when you invited me to join in on this topic, I got very excited. As I mentioned too, we just took a trip and I watched a masterclass on sleep, and my kids were like, You're so boring. Why are you watching? You could watch anything on the airplane, This is so exciting., but , my oldest is now 12, and when she was born, She didn't sleep, so I had to learn very quickly how to help her learn how to sleep. And I also had to learn very quickly how to help myself sleep. So it became very important to me, in terms of mental health and self care, to always use sleep as part of the solution to helping people feel better. It's so important and I do wanna preface that if your audience or whoever's listening to this doesn't have a problem, it's not a problem if they're co-sleeping, if their kids are staying up late and they enjoy that. I know a family whose kids fall asleep every night on the couch cuz the family watches shows together and that works for. that is not a problem if it is not a problem for you. So my information today that I am providing is not to make people feel like they're doing anything wrong or that they have to change anything unless they want to.
tammy afriat:thanks for making it really inviting to listen without the need to always think, Do I fall into this category? So I would love to start with why is it so important to get the sleep?
Deborah Winter:So even though this podcast is for children who are a little bit older than new babies, establishing a healthier routine and schedule early on will move them along into the, elementary, preschool stages and, I believe that once you learn about your baby and you learn about their different cries through sleep training and you learn about their different needs and you become comfortable with some of their cries because that's their language, right? That's the only way they can communicate , and your nature is to need to respond to every cry. But when you step back and you listen, you learn you can empower yourself by understanding more. So that will transpire into when they become, one, two, and so on. When, , they have new transitions from a crib to a bed, from potty training to sleeping through the night through starting new transitions. Maybe the new new baby comes home. Maybe there's some separation anxiety. Maybe they start a new school. So all of those things are going to impact their sleep. So again, it goes back to the beginning. When you learn, the more you can learn about your child, the better it will serve you later as they change and grow.
tammy afriat:I get that. So actually every transition has the potential of affecting the quality of my child's sleep.
Deborah Winter:Absolutely. So, you know, they say you can't do it all right? You can't. can't be a perfect sleeper and a perfect potty trainer and a perfect school, , You know, at some point they're gonna be learning a new skill and they're gonna be focusing on that skill, and the other things might change. But you asked me, Tommy, like, why is sleep so important? So, it's important for our mental health, which I had mentioned earlier, and , it's important also for our physical health. So everything that we learned throughout the day, including things that we didn't even realize that we were taking in gets processed when we sleep. that what happens to our brains when we sleep. So we're storing memories, right? Also our heart rate and digestive system slows down our body temperature, cools off . So we are resting so that we can restore ourselves and create memories so that we can be better learners, more patient, healthier beings. The next day, if we skip that sleep. Our body doesn't bank sleep hours. You , can almost not make up for it the next day. Right? You try to, but you've lost out on that memory making and you've lost out on that good wellness that occurs when you're resting. so you know, you've got children who can be a little bit more regulated. You have a parent that could be more patient and you've got healthier beings. As a result,
tammy afriat:Healthier dynamics,
Deborah Winter:healthier dynamics overall. Correct. Right,
tammy afriat:I get that. And so I want to dive in if you don't mind, to what would consider to be a healthy sleep habits in details. For example, how much time should it take to my child and for myself to fall asleep?
Deborah Winter:that's a good question. So for a child age two to eight, it's gonna be a little bit different because they're gonna have different habits at two. They're gonna have, like, their brains are changing. I always say it's good for them, hard for us. So they may have a little bit more fear at night, so there might be a little bit more tending to the child as they're going to sleep. You might hear parents say, One more glass of water, one more song., there's monsters under my bed. Those children might also have some, you know, nightmares more often. And again, that's their brain changing, that's their social emotional learning. But for a. Four, five, even 6, 7, 8 year old, no more than 20 minutes. And even for an adult, by the time that you start to close your eyes, you go into a, , what they call a non rapid eye movement sleep. And you start to go from light sleep into much deeper sleep, and from there you go into your rapid eye movement. and then you come out again. So that whole sleep cycle from going from light to deep to light again is gonna take about 90 minutes. So you figure it takes about 20 minutes to start you off to get to the deep sleep. Okay? You've ever watched your children's sleep? you've watched a partner sleep or maybe even yourself while you're, you're falling asleep watching a TV show, that's that very first stage. I'm not asleep. I'm watching the movie. I swear I could hear everything where your kid's like, I'm not asleep, I'm not tired. and then all of a sudden you can see their body, like maybe you have a pet. And they twitch, right? That's their going into that deep sleep. So to answer your question, it should take about 20 minutes even for a younger child. But they just have more needs,. So it takes a little longer.
tammy afriat:And now it's like the most important question,. So how much hours, should my child get sleep and also do you say that it's including naps?
Deborah Winter:naps. You would want to have a gross amount of total sleep hours. So actually I have my chart in front of me here. Two years to three years, total sleep hours of 12 to 14 with a number of hours during the day, maybe one, one and a half. So if they're not sleeping, cuz some two, three year olds refuse the naps. You would hope that they were making up anywhere from 12 to 14 at night, but if they are taking a nap during the day, and let's just say it's a two hour, three hour nap, you're not gonna get 14 hours at night. You see?
tammy afriat:Mm-hmm.
Deborah Winter:You can't have it all. Like I said earlier,
tammy afriat:When I moved from, , my home country, then my daughter was kind of forced to sleep. It sounds bad, but it, that's just the law in here, like in the United States. And so she wouldn't fall asleep during the night, and that was a nightmare for me. So then , I figured that there. Different approach towards should the child get an app or not. And it's, it's a relief knowing that you gave this data,, that some kids just not need that anymore this nap time
Deborah Winter:I won't say they don't need it. Right. Even as adults need it , but they may refuse. Meaning at a two year, three year old age, the environment is, they're more mobile, they are more exploratory. They, can leave the parent now more freely. They don't have to be carried around everywhere. So oftentimes the world is way too exciting and it could be very difficult to settle a child. However, I wouldn't try to not nap them. I wouldn't say, Oh, they don't need it because what happens? Our body is designed to keep ourselves alive and healthy, and including sleep. So we have hormones and neurotransmitters in our body that help us get sleepy. And so for a young child during the day, even though they appear as though they're not tired or they're refusing to sleep, doesn't mean that their body doesn't need it. So if they fight the nap, More often, I would say to a parent, Give your child feet off the floor time. Have them read a book in their room away from the stimuli. If they won't sleep, at least they're having some downtime so that their brain can focus on one thing only and relax.
tammy afriat:So one sign keep the nap is when the child is refusing. Is there any more signs that could be, , a clue that the child is not in a need anymore for a nap?.
Deborah Winter:Yeah, I think you said something like it was the law , in the United States, right? So up until the age of four, if a child's going into like a preschool program, they are required to give that child rest time until kindergarten starts when we're five. So, I go by those guidelines, but again, you have to know your child. There are some children that still want that nap at five, six years old. I learned on my master class that there are night owls and early birds, and genetically we are. Predisposition to either be a night owl or an early bird. And the reason why is because back in the caveman days, you would have a herd. You'd sleep together as a herd. Now we sleep individual as an individual, perhaps was a partner, but back then you were vulnerable to outside the environment. So if you're sleeping seven, eight hours a night all together at the same time, that's seven of eight hours, you're being vulnerable to the environ. But if some people are night hours and some people are early birds, that shortens your time together as asleep, and so that only creates four hours of vulnerability.
tammy afriat:That's really interesting. I actually thought , if we were living the desert area, we would be going outside, maybe even in the night because it's not as hot. So that's why we would adjust ourself to the environment.
Deborah Winter:Well, again, yes, I could see that also being true because our bodies are designed to keep us alive and so you acclimate and into your environment, right? you know, you had asked me about when a child is ready to stop napping. and I really do believe that like at two, they definitely, you should still try. I've heard parents say they're not tired. They're not tired. Another thing that our body will produce is a hormone called cortisol. It's a stress hormone. It's the same hormone that if you're driving and you're tired, keeps you from nodding off, crashing and dying.? Again, our bodies are created to keep us alive. So in a younger child, Who's tired. If they don't, go to sleep and relax, that hormone is gonna surge and they're going to have what's known as a second wind. And so they're going to present a child that looks full of energy, but in actuality, their brains really do need to go to sleep. There's another neurotransmitter in our body called adenine. No one really knows about Aden., but it, it like builds up and gets released when we fall asleep. So if we don't allow that to be released, that can build up in our body and also create, more cortisol, creating a very overtired child. And so if you have a child who's overtired trying to go put them to bed at night, what happens most times? They're dysregulated, they're over emotional, they're less patient. All the things that we were talking about early about why sleep is so important. So they're not just gonna drift off. Another thing, if you go to sleep, and let's just say you pass out, this is for adults too, but you've got a ton of cortisol built up in your body. You're not gonna sleep as peacefully. You're not gonna fall into that deep sleep that you need in order to create, better sleep. So it all leads up.
tammy afriat:So you need to have a balance between melatonin, which is the sleeping hormone to the cortisol, which is the keep me awake hormone. Okay.
Deborah Winter:Yeah.
tammy afriat:Okay. So , as you speak, I'm just sensing that as a parent it could be beneficial to ask your child., Are you feeling tired now? Like, can you feel this kind of, I need a rest.
Deborah Winter:Yes, . But, most kids are gonna be like, No, I'm fine because the environment, I like being with you too much, Mom, you are way more exciting than my bedroom. You, you definitely do have the children that are like, I gotta check out and go to bed. And I mean, God bless those children because that is like a gift , but most kids fight it because again, like I just explained, it's developmentally appropriate. It's so exciting to be.
tammy afriat:Do you know? Fomo.
. Deborah Winter:Yeah, that's it.
tammy afriat:Fear of missing out. That's,
Deborah Winter:So
tammy afriat:We.
Deborah Winter:Most often, you really wanna guide them and create that routine and that schedule for them, because they oftentimes, they're not in check with what their body needs.
tammy afriat:we actually started going over how many hours a day, a child should get asleep. So we started with two to three, and also three to four, as far as I remember, was 11 to 12 hours.
Deborah Winter:to 13. Mm-hmm.
tammy afriat:Thirteens. Okay. And then as they grow up, what's the other age range?
Deborah Winter:about five to 12 years. And then you move into adolescence. And the reason why that is separated is because our sleep cycles change from the time we're babies to the time we're teens, to the time we're adults, to the time that we become elderly. Every our circadian rhythms, will change. So, oftentimes parents will say, like, My teenager's so lazy. But it's really just a very natural stage of development for them., you know, want to stay up a little bit later and sleep in a little bit longer, which is unfortunate for them because school starts so early and they've got all these after school activities, right? So they often miss out on all of that restorative sleep that they really, really need. So if you're able to, and anybody's listening here with older kids, let them sleep on the weekends. They need it
tammy afriat:So for five to 12 years old, how many hours a day would be recommended?
Deborah Winter:So . This is the group age that my kids are at, and they sleep about nine, 10 hours a night. no naps, of course. so 10, 11 hours are recommended, and I wanna point this out too, like you had asked me about routines. you know, we have like an hour where we kind of start unwinding them. So even though they're, my kids are awake, they're not asleep yet, I would love them to be asleep, but their lights are low in their., we're not running around the house being crazy. I'm getting their circadian rhythm and their melatonin going. It would, you know, be lovely if sometimes we're reading cuz reading is such a great way to , focus on one thing and drown out the other so you can get sleepier,.. Screens are really popular Sleep routines, but it is recommended that we not look at screens at least two hours prior to bed. But if they're going to use a screen, know your kid. If you leave the screen with the kid and you leave the room, are they gonna put it down responsibly and turn it off till the morning? Or are they gonna be too tempted? And you gotta know your kid because so often, right? They're like, Yes, mom and dad went to bed. I can take out my screen again. And it is so unhealthy for them to be like this. And not everybody has a sensitivity to the light , in the tech, but most do. Right? Because again, it changes their circadian with them. It's telling us it's light out, we don't need to go to sleep.
tammy afriat:Mm.
Deborah Winter:And
tammy afriat:It's stimulating the brain.
Deborah Winter:And it's also stimulating the brain. So you've got your dopamine and your serotonin and all those feel good things that are like, Keep doing this, keep doing. Keeping us awake.
tammy afriat:Mm-hmm.
Deborah Winter:Yeah.
tammy afriat:Got it. So in terms of how to establish healthy routine is no running around and increasing the adrenaline for about, I think I read two hours before going to sleep. Is that right?
Deborah Winter:you know, I don't know. but like if you have a parent that's getting home late from work and the child's supposed to be in bed eight, I'm not gonna tell that parent. Don't horse around with your kids and have a great time because that's important too. But after you've rounded them up, also make sure that you calm down with them, right? Don't just go, Oh, now you've gotta go to bed, and why won't you calm down? Cuz that's not fair. Like you said, you've got their adrenaline going. And now we wanna help them unwind. And so ideally it would be an hour, hour and a half, but that's not always likely for every household. So whatever you do, just recognize there's gotta be a transition period. Lights start to get lower. Maybe there's a bath, right? Cuz the bath warms up our skin and brings all the blood to our, surface so that when we sleep, we cool down naturally. So we do that a lot faster. And when we sleep, we get to a temperature that's like supposed to be really cool for sleep. And our blood pressure drops and our heart rate slows down.
tammy afriat:it's like coming down, no running around. avoid screen time, two hours before sleep time.
Deborah Winter:I would try. I mean, again, everyone's gonna go how? Two hours? That's crazy. So I mentioned to you, my family, right? I don't follow this sleep chart exactly, because , it's not doable in my family life. Right? We have a lot of after school activities, and by the time we're eating dinner, sometimes it's 7, 7 30 at night. If they're going to bed at nine 30, that's two hours, So, We love to watch a show altogether as a family. That's screen time, but I make sure that once that show is over, then there's a little bit of downtime in the room without a screen if it's five minutes, 10 minutes. But while we're watching that show, the light, like I said, is low to help increase the melatonin and produce, , what is needed to help us get sleepy.
tammy afriat:Mm-hmm., I get that.. , so when should I expect my child to sleep the whole night? Like, no, not wake up because of nightmare s, not wet their bed.
Deborah Winter:So child can start sleeping through the night as young as six months old., but sleeping through the night for six month old might be different than sleeping through the night than for a , three year old, but by now, absolutely. Because as I mentioned earlier, a three year old is brain is developing and so they're gonna have more separation anxiety, they're gonna fear more things. there might be more transitional stages going on, like potty training. I would say I'd want to know what the routine looks like. Cuz that's, it might be more habitual than it is really the practice of sleep.
tammy afriat:So as far as I understand, by age two, the child should be able to. Sleep the whole night, or at least if he wakes up to fall asleep right after with interrupting an adult. Right. That's a great thing to learn here, , sometimes we tolerate stuff and we don't get that it could be better or there could be a better way and more healthier way to handle the situation. So, And what about wetting the bed?
Deborah Winter:so at night our brains speak to our bladder differently than during the day, which is why so many children struggle with nighttime. wetting versus daytime, you'll see a child be potty trained much faster, and it could take years for them to train overnight. So by the time the child is aged seven and they're still wedding the bed, then there could be, more other issues going on. Sometimes there's, an underdeveloped bladder, sometimes there's, some nerve damage. but basically what happens is the brain. And the bladder, like I was saying before, there's neurotransmitters that speak to each other. And , if you have a smaller bladder, your bladder just naturally, even if the brain is saying Hold it, hold it, it just can't, especially if you have a deep sleeper., so the bladder really needs time , to grow and that could take a different amount of time for lots of children. but sometimes there's a hormone that helps the neurotransmitter and the brain speak to the bladder, and that can be also underdeveloped. So there could be some training involved at three. I wouldn't worry about it, But five, six, If it's now an age where you're letting your kid have sleepovers with their cousins or close family friends,. They might be embarrassed. Right. And the training becomes, not like the training that you would do in the daytime, but it becomes more like if you're familiar with the Pavlovian theory, if you've ever taken psychology classes, right? You've got the dog with the kibble on its nose, and then the master ringing the vow. Okay? What happens when they remove the kibble and they ring the bell? The dog still, Sal., it's a training like that., you put an alarm on a, pad that when it gets wet, it goes off. The alarm doesn't wake the child to go to the bathroom. The alarm is so unpleasant when the child starts to urinate and wakes up, it goes, I don't wanna hear that. Pleasant sound again and starts to learn how that this minter tightens up the bladder and the brain speak to each other and it starts to hold dear. And we had to use this training with my youngest because she was at that age where it was becoming embarrassing and, she got it so quickly., and it was very different than taking your child asleep and bringing them to the bathroom, because really all you're doing is just if they have a small bladder, maybe you're extending their ability to hold the urine longer, but you're not teaching them anything. They're just learning how to go and not hold it. Here's another thought. One thing you can do right away to try to help your child is while they're awake and they're urinating. Teach them to hold it midstream because that will strengthen the bladder muscle. Okay. So that might just be something you can start right away to see if that increases their time at night.
tammy afriat:So , it's a relief knowing that controlling your bladder during the day is a different process in terms of your brain than what's happening during the night. So it's okay for the child to still wet his bed until he's around seven years old, but then if he passes this seven years old, there might be something else going on and it's worth check.
Deborah Winter:correct? Yes.
, tammy afriat:so I think we started touching it and I wonder if you have any other tips that you can share with us around establishing healthy sleeping habits.
Deborah Winter:Sure., especially for a child who's learning how to hold their urine overnight, limiting their liquid intake. Right. Also limiting their food intake as food. can Also create urine., and that is another good way to also produce better sleep. Because if your stomach is digesting food as soon as you fall asleep, it can cause you to, have some sleep disturbances. So I would say the number one thing that we've already touched on for better sleep habits, limiting the screen time, which everybody knows, but keeping it, within your family values and your ability to do so. But even if it's for 10 minutes, just to have that downtime, limiting food limiting. Liquids. reading and having some quiet times. Some children might like music all for others that might be too stimulating. we used to use an app called Mochi. I think it was m o o s H. You know, it, you know, it.
tammy afriat:Yeah, we also used it
Deborah Winter:It worked until it didn't work. Then it became stimulating. so, then, you know, just talking to your child with the light low., just telling a story or just sharing a little bit about your day. a lot of parents will say, When my kids, come home from school, they don't open up, but then they go to bed, they open up, they're relaxed, they're not distracted with their environment. So you don't wanna go into hours and hours of conversation because that will keep them awake. But it's, can be relaxing and connecting to have that little connecting catch up conversation. Some people, adults tend to have a little sleep anxiety, so they might wake up when they're in that, lighter sleep cycle and then not be able to transition. that may also happen with children, right? They wake up and now their habit is to just get up and come into your room. So it's important for a young child to give them the tools on how to transition and that. Be a mantra of some kind. In my house, we use, I'm safe, I'm loved, I'm safe, I'm loved. But it's really anything that you would consider part of your senses. So you wanna ground yourself using your senses., your taste, your smell, your sight, your hearing, touch. So if I wake up and I'm looking around, I might say, I'm in my bed. I have my warm cozy blanket. I can smell the, air, I can smell the diffusing oils that mommy and daddy put on. I can, hear the crickets outside, you know, anything that can help ground them. And then also, replace the messages that they're saying in their head. I have to get up and go in mommy and daddy's room to replace it with, I'm safe. I'm. And then for an adult or a more mature child to say, it's totally okay that I have worries. It's totally okay that I have concerns. And I can deal with that in the morning. I'll be okay. I'm safe and I'm loved and those worries aren't gonna go away just because I'm thinking about them tonight. So let me put them out of my head. And for an older child who's able. I like personally myself to repeat and spell out the word nothing if I'm awake and trying to go back to sleep. But for a younger child, it might be a favorite song. The alphabet. It's the whole counting sheep theory, right? You're replacing your distracted thoughts with focused thoughts.
, tammy afriat:It's almost like, coping skills for a younger child to. Redirect their thought.
Deborah Winter:Yes. And here's what happens with a younger child, right? Because this is gonna be very big thinking them just at night. So you don't start the practice at night. You start it all during the waking hours and you talk about it and you reinforce it, and perhaps you reward it so that they're learning new pattern. Right. And then when they get up the next day you go, What did you do to help yourself? How did you get through it? What did you do? And you continue to talk about it and reinforce it, . But parents have to be consistent or else the message doesn't work
tammy afriat:Yeah, I'm hearing it's not a one discussion and it's done. It's a really process to implement those kind of healthy routine, and especially for the kids to be able to fall asleep again by himself.
Deborah Winter:Yes, in my experience, if you are super consistent and you do all the work during the day, and then the parent is consistent at night, so maybe they don't want the child to sleep with them, they walk them back to their room. No discussion, Whatever it is that you're trying to remove., you have to be consistent and you'll see after even day two, day three, by day seven, it is so different. So if you could think of it as like putting in the hard work now to have long term results versus I just want short-term results, but then I have long term problems. But again, it's not a problem if it's not a problem. So I have to always preface that.
tammy afriat:So, but I do want to think about the worst case scenario. Like what happens if I can't sleep or my child is just not sleeping. I know that some parents experience that. So what can then be done?
Deborah Winter:Well, if the child isn't sleeping and , you really feel like, you've tried everything. There might be, information that you. Rule out from the pediatrician. I mean, is there something going on? Do they have a developmental disability, like an ADHD that's preventing their brain from slowing down and maybe they can't relax? so I would want to, if you feel like you've tried everything to rule out anything medical, of course, but if you feel like., you've developed a habit where once the child wakes up, they come in. Now they're up because they see you and you feel like maybe there's some behavioral modification that can happen. I would say that it's okay for your child to be up, not asleep in their room. If what you're trying to eliminate is them coming into your room, then they can be awake. We can't force un control our children to fall asleep. That has to come naturally, but we can control the environment. So as long as you are being consistent with that and the message that you're putting out is , You can't come in here more than often. More often than not, you are the stimuli. Once they remove the stimuli, they can go back to sleep.
tammy afriat:Well, it always go back to. Parents respond that makes the whole
Deborah Winter:Yeah.
tammy afriat:go, keep going. I was actually reading and I was really surprised cuz you mentioned adhd that many kids with ADHD has problem with them balancing their melatonin in their brain. And that's why I think it was 80% that are suffering from sleeping issues. So I was amazed by this number.
Deborah Winter:I mean, it's not their fault, it's their brains. It's how they. working and thinking. but it couldn't help if approved by a pediatrician to add some melatonin supplements into their nighttime routine. I think that I have read, most people don't need anything more than 1.5. Milligrams of melatonin. If we give our bodies too much, we start to not produce it on our own as much. Now, for younger children, you always wanna make sure that you've developed a healthy sleep routine first, because melatonin, you don't want it to be a crutch. So they're in their bed. The lights are dumb. They've done the reading, you've done the bath, you've done the no screen time, you've done all the things, and then they're just laying there like, I can't see. That might be an indication that they are having trouble producing enough melatonin and shutting down their brain. But if your kids are wild and you can't get them to brush their teeth, then they're falling asleep, passing out on the couch., you know, , we wanna make sure that even if we give them melatonin, that there's still a healthy sleep routine after that.
tammy afriat:Mm-hmm.. I get that. So just towards the end of our conversation, , is there anything else you would like to add?
Deborah Winter:I do just wanna promote that healthy sleep habits are so important and I think parents, because we're so tired at the end of the day, that we'll do anything to just sleep ourselves. But if we can reframe our thinking and just say, let it meet, just put in the time. You know, let me put in a little bit of work now so that I know I'm giving , my child, the gift of healthy sleep. It's going to benefit them immensely long term. So even if, we don't think our child is sleepy, , we need to be , the one aware of the time of the day and the schedule and what works for our family, but try to always give them time to rest, to shut it down. It really does improve our wellness and our wellbeing and our mental health and all of the things. And we want them to be engaged at school, to be able to pay attention, to have patience, to build relationships, to be, healthy.
tammy afriat:got it. So, . If apparently listened to us and he did get some ideas and he wants to learn more, how can he reach you?
Deborah Winter:Oh, thank you for asking me that. I can be reached, my Instagram is your parent educator. My Facebook is Deborah Winter's parent educator, and my website is counseling and Parenting. All spelled out?
tammy afriat:And we have all of those links in the show notes. So if someone did not catch. Just look at the show notes.
Deborah Winter:Yeah. Thank you.
tammy afriat:thank you so much for being with us today.
Deborah Winter:You're so welcome. It was a pleasure talking with you, Tammy.