Neurolicious - by Mummel Road

Beyond the Diagnosis: Finding Strength in Autism Parenthood

• Emily Baitch • Season 1 • Episode 3

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When Emily’s son, Charlie, received an autism diagnosis, it wasn’t the ending of a journey—it was the beginning of a profound transformation. In this episode, Emily shares her deeply personal experience navigating the emotional highs and lows of the diagnostic process, the challenges of adjusting family life, and the unexpected resilience she found along the way.

Rather than measuring success by traditional milestones, Emily redefined quality of life for her family—shifting the focus to connection, emotional growth, and celebrating progress in ways that felt authentic to Charlie’s needs. She discusses how small wins—like Charlie engaging with sensory activities, transitioning successfully between spaces, and finding joy in routines—became their new markers of achievement.

Through candid reflections, practical insights, and heartfelt moments, Emily’s story reminds us that parenting a neurodivergent child isn’t about fitting into conventional expectations—it’s about embracing a unique and meaningful journey. Tune in to explore the beauty of acceptance, adaptation, and advocacy, and learn how rethinking success can open the door to a truly fulfilling experience for both parent and child.

Keen to read more? Read about some of the strategies that helped Emily and her family here. 

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Mummel Road Community Programs is a registered charity offering adolescents on the autism spectrum the opportunity to engage with their community in a meaningful way. To learn more about our charity or donate please read more here

Mummel Road Members get weekly support session with Emily, our advanced positive behaviour support practitioner. Learn more about our members hub here.

If you are wanting to share your story with the Neurolicious Community, please reach out to us at info@mummelroad.com.au

SPEAKER_01:

Just a heads up, this episode talks about navigating diagnosis. It was recorded a little while ago, which happened to be coincidentally when Hugh from the Imperfects podcast published an open letter about navigating diagnosis in his family. Okay, now you have the context, here's the episode. Hello friends, welcome to the Neuralicious podcast. This is a space where we can talk openly about parenting neurodiverse kids. I'm Emily, founder and director of Mammal Road, an NDIS registered autism specific service. I'm also the mum of three kids and my eldest has a ton of

SPEAKER_00:

neuro spice. And I'm Kylie, I'm a paediatric occupational therapist who has a special interest in ADHD, autism and building connection with kids who don't really seem to like anyone. We are the Brains Trust for you need. And we hope the Neuralicious podcast helps you learn a few things and feel not so alone. So settle in for another episode on

SPEAKER_01:

Neuralicious. Hi, I'm Emily. And I'm Kylie. And together, we are Neuralicious. It's so nice to see you today, Kylie. And I know that it's been a bit of a special day today because our topic that we sort of scheduled in for the day was one that has hit Facebook and all the social media because it is the same one that Hugh from the Imperfects podcast spoke about today. So I'm going to hand over to you so that you can read something that I wrote in response to Hugh's beautiful open letter.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It's just so fitting, isn't it? Like it was just a really bizarre thing. I could not

SPEAKER_01:

believe it.

SPEAKER_00:

You had said on Wednesday, let's do this topic.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And then it happened.

SPEAKER_01:

It happened. I know. And also big shout out to our friends from the Being Sportish podcast. So Georgie Trickett this morning, I woke to her message at 6.30 saying, I hope this won't make you cry. And I was thinking. Well, of course it's going to. She knows someone in my life has died. I was like. Oh, well, that's definitely going to make me cry. Everyone is here. And my husband is actually holidaying up in Queensland. So that's the first thing I thought I was like, You know, Tim's been eaten by shark. But no, no, no, he's fine. He's fine. But then she did tag us. And I was thinking, Hugh, what a legend.

SPEAKER_00:

So Mama Mia even posted about it as well. But I really loved what you wrote, Em. Thanks. And I'm just going to read it now. So you said, Hugh, you spoke literally to my inner soul. Our whole network know what a legend Charlie B is. We are so grateful to our friends and family who work to help Charlie feel included, welcomed and valued. Despite his relentless and repetitive questions, his repetitive hugs and his burning desire to use everyone's washing machine. But that doesn't mean that it has been easy. The continuous heartbreak and concern that accompany raising a child who requires substantial support in all areas of their life is exhausting and relentless. We never really have a super easy day. We work hard every day being the link between our child and the world they exist in. Big love to our friends who are so patient and kind with Charlie B and a huge hug to all of the parents raising children on the autism spectrum. Aw, yeah. Thanks for letting

SPEAKER_01:

that

SPEAKER_00:

out. And then the Mamma Mia clip that goes with the open letter, which I think we should post on the Mumble Road Facebook page just so everybody knows. The pain of being a parent of an autistic child is not the child, it's the world. If there's one thing you read today, let it be this open letter. from hubert

SPEAKER_01:

we see examples of this in our lives every day where our friends and family like i mentioned in that post put aside their standard response to things and they're flexible and kind and really understanding they meet him in each moment which is really nice and And, oh, look, gee whiz, it's hard work for everyone. They have to think about that and I know that they do. Yeah. So it's not easy for them either and that's why I wanted to shout out to my friends and family because they work at that. So thanks again to all of you who are listening. I don't think Hugh knows us now but I think that he should. Yeah. Hey, Hugh,

SPEAKER_00:

shout out. We'd love to have you on our podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

And, like, we do a solid and be on yours. Exactly. We can, like... We'd bend. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

We could do that. That could be flexible. We could be flexible. So I think we should make a goal because we're right into setting goals for ourselves and our family and we know with our work we do. So I'm going to set a two-year goal that we need to speak to Hugh in two years. I would love that. Within two years. Within two years. And if that doesn't happen... I think we just go find him. Yeah, yeah. And just like knock on his door. I think he'd be easy to find. He'd be easy to find. I think that he just has like a whole bunch of people just following him everywhere because he's such a legend. But anyway, beside the point, we were going to bring up the topic of processing and understanding and experiencing things diagnosis of a child from a parent's perspective and that whole quite difficult time we were going to bring that up today anyway and then Hugh just did he take our

SPEAKER_00:

thunder he stole our thunder it's like anyway um now it looks like we're piggybacking off the imperfects idea like what we're gonna do today oh what topic but it is a good one it is we need to just sort of I think scrape the surface of this really intense time in somebody's life and we will be revisiting it and breaking it down into much more manageable pieces. So I think today should just sort of be a snapshot of what it feels like without being too rushed. But yeah, if you hear the podcast and you're like, oh, you guys have barely even scratched the surface, we know and we're just going to revisit it all throughout this podcast of deliciousness so how old was Charlie when you first started to think or what what did you first start to notice with Charlie B and his development

SPEAKER_01:

yeah that's a great question and I think that this one is one that we will briefly chat about to today, but it's a whole thing that really first steps of knowing that there's something that could be a little bit different for us. There was a couple of things. One, he was quite late to talk as in when he got to two, he really didn't have any words yet. Parents and other parents groups and stuff were just sort of commenting that by two, they should be able to put two words together. And I kind of brushed it off thinking. So competitive. So competitive. He'll be fine. We read all the time. We're talking, we're doing all the right things. We'll be fine.

SPEAKER_00:

It

SPEAKER_01:

was a lingering doubt in my mind. And then really what I did notice and on reflection, the biggest thing, which is a huge sign of a pending diagnosis of autism, which was if we said to Charlie around the age of two, would you like a drink or do you want to go to the park? In reflection, it was really exhausting because he would not give any of that response back. So I was constantly trying to give him cues that he could not respond in a typically developing way. And then the other thing was his hands were up. So he walked with like T-Rex hands. So physios out there and the OTs would know that at a certain age, kids generally start to drop their hands and they walk with their arms alongside their body. Charlie was not. It was like he was always about to fall forward. And so we did look eventually, we were overseas at this time, but we moved back to Australia and then started the process of finding some professionals to speak to.

SPEAKER_00:

How did conversation come up between you and Tim?

SPEAKER_01:

It was not easy only because I didn't want to make anybody feel nervous. I was me being the people pleaser and me being the primary carer. So you brought it up to Tim or...? had spoken about the fact that his communication was limited so we sort of started to notice those bigger differences and Our response together, so when we did say, oh, do you think he's saying enough words? And we sort of said, oh, I think he'll be fine. I think it's fine. So together we were trying to console each other and I think that's very normal. And then we started to get the comments from other people. So that was really when we sort

SPEAKER_00:

of. Family and friends? Yes. So

SPEAKER_01:

my mum had passed away by then. So that was, I can't cry about that, but I'm going to. So other people that would have, like her friends, started to sort of, make some really sensible not hurtful but really kind considerate sort of helpful directional comments not nasty but they knew that if my mum was here that's what she would say that was really kind and we needed that

SPEAKER_00:

so when you first sort of went to investigate it where did you go first

SPEAKER_01:

um We went to our local GP first. He did a brief assessment on Charlie and then did give us a referral to a paediatrician. And he didn't really say too much because he was still quite young. He was under three. Yeah. So there's still a lot that can develop, you know, a lot of things can change. So he wasn't ready to jump into any conclusions. Rightfully so, he just passed us a referral and we got on the waiting list for a paediatrician and got in fairly quickly. And we were in Queensland at the time. In that system, you had to go under a speech pathologist, an occupational therapist, and a pediatrician. So together, the three started to do their assessment processes, which was interesting. The pediatrician initially was very caring and was very supportive and welcoming of us in her space and she didn't want to set off too many alarms yeah so but i did feel like then maybe we had a bit of a false sense of confidence then we thought it would be just she'd say look there's some serious things here yeah but she didn't she said we need to investigate this and this and this and then we started speech pathology and again i They're so lovely. I just walked into the OT session and I just cried and I said, is there any hope? Like he's, you know, we can't talk to us. And she was very kind and said, of course, of course, we'll start these things. So I kept on trying to find instances of him succeeding. So I'd go to the OT, me being me again, being like, I think he just got this milestone. Like I think he did this like four times. That hope. The hope. And just like we're nailing it. We're conscientious. We're doing all the things that you're saying. All the time and the speechy. I was like I did all the homework and have written down all these things that he said and we're doing all the things and she was kind. Yeah. But then the regular visits to the paediatrician were the things where she'd collude all the information and then at the end of about a 10-month process she then said to us, I will be giving him a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder, which she then went on to say it's a lifelong disorder. Not going to cry. Yeah, you can, but. And that comment is really hard because you do all that work with all the specialists and you think if I put in enough work. I'm going to beat it. It might be okay. I'm going to beat it. We could beat it. We're conscientious. We can just like it's a temporary state. I give a shit. Because we give a shit.

SPEAKER_00:

I am engaged. Yeah, absolutely. And you want

SPEAKER_01:

us to do things twice, we'll do them eight times and we will just nail this.

SPEAKER_00:

So we're doing all of the work. You're putting in the work. And I don't think there's enough time spent to sit in the shit. No. You have to do the work. The work is beneficial, but at the end of the day it's not changing that diagnosis. Not at all. Not at all. It is a grieving period. It's grieving what was meant to be, in inverted commas, I think.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Yes, definitely. That's a really good statement because I would come from– families where there's been generally a sense of achievement you put in work you're conscientious and you get an outcome and that's just the families we were born into to then have this situation where you have no map there's no no one can say if you do this this will happen and he's going to be like this when he's older it is not like that and that is terrifying. And also from my experience as a teacher, I was a primary school teacher for so many years before having children. I always had classes with these kids where I looked at their parents and I loved these kids and I've worked so hard with them and built such rapport. But when I looked at their parents, when they went home, I just said to myself, I don't think I could do it because they don't have a map. None of us have certainty, but there's that element of if we If we try and do all these things, there's going to be some kind of an outcome. I feel like

SPEAKER_00:

it's, like I know that there's no certainty and all of that, but there is a level of expectation that we start here and this is where we're going. Definitely. And every day, week, month, it's going to be hard, it's going to be challenging, but we know where we're heading.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Where... just from my understanding of watching, that's not there with this. And it's like it's a marathon. It's a long game. It is a long game. Like you guys are playing the long game. Like it must be exhausting for that of like when you can just buckle down and sprint to the end.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You can kind of suck it up because it's just got to get to this

SPEAKER_01:

point where

SPEAKER_00:

you really have to retrain your mind, right, to– digestible pieces

SPEAKER_01:

yes exactly so i think there's a couple of different phases of course when you in that early intervention phase which this was 2011 and it is still the focus obviously but we know much more about the brain and how it can still develop later yeah at that time the sentiment and the message that we were going to get is you have to do all these things now. And all of us, the whole cohort of parents that I met felt like we were running against this clock to get all these things done before the child is seven. Yeah. Because we felt like after that we were going to somehow lose that momentum or not be able to have some of the same trajectories. And then what we realised is that we had to shift our perception of what a goal is like. What is quality of life? What is happiness? What is a great outcome? And through that process, I mean, that's a lengthy process to change because it takes a lot of reflection and you can't compare your parenting journey to anybody else's because we would always change. be lost. Charlie would never be a candidate to get any of the typical awards or anything like that. But we had to refine our perception of what his quality of life was like and what we perceived his life to be and what a fulfilling life would be. This was all before school, of course. That was a really great huge process and now in reflection I think that we did quite well eventually but it was not only after so many crying episodes and just, yeah, I think that first week after the diagnosis when I was trying to rationalise and reconcile what my life was going to be like and Charlie's life was going to be like was... incredibly hard. We were lucky enough to be in a city where there was a great early intervention centre. So I mentioned a cohort of parents that we were around. I had this beautiful bunch of families who all had kids who had significant additional needs yeah so they weren't the kids that were like maybe maybe not these were well and truly diagnosable very easy to see even obvious to the eye so it wasn't even a hidden diagnosis because you tell that there was something not typical about the way that they engaged with their world

SPEAKER_00:

yes

SPEAKER_01:

and those bunch of parents we're still in contact with now and they were Incredible. And they know who they are. I'm going to tag all of them in this podcast because they're amazing. And some of those parents who put in the work and we did all the right things, their children still may not be able to communicate, for example, verbally, but they still have quality of life. They've got a supportive family. They go to school. They do all these amazing things. And that support around them has been excellent. I was

SPEAKER_00:

just thinking while you were talking, because my brain goes a thousand miles an hour off on little side quests. I was thinking one, I would love to have those parents on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And two, can we just stop for a minute and take stock of the fact that you guys pretty much have led the way to change the world? Like from 2011 to now in this space. Yeah. has changed so much in just shifting the expectations of what a good life is I think that like in all honesty my life's better for being around Charlie because he sees things in a different way he does and but even his bid for connection with me like Clifford Because the first time he came over, we watched Clifford, the big red dog, and now he's like, oh, Kylie. It's like he's breaking my heart by telling me that it's not on Netflix anymore. Yeah, yeah. We've got some hard news. Yeah, we've got to work hard. We've got to build that connection in another way. And I think also another message is that slowing down is okay. Yes. You can slow down. It's all good. Yeah. Definitely. Watch the washing machine. Just watch it. Just hear it.

SPEAKER_01:

Definitely. You're right. The amount of joy that we get from seeing him engage in something quite abstract, but meaningfully engage in that, whatever it is, whether it's washing machines at the good guys or going to JB Hi-Fi and looking at whatever they've got there or going to your house and going on the ride on or going to a friend's place and finding a new washing machine is worth everything. 50 medals of the other kids who have done something like, oh, they were in a soccer team. Not taking away from it. They just actively go and do that. It's a very easy pathway. Whereas if he's genuinely engaged happily in an activity, Tim and I are like far out. I'm getting goosebumps right now. Both of us are like, he's actually loving this. He hasn't done it. He's just found something himself. And then it always builds this really beautiful feeling around him. I remember when we go to the markets to sell veggies, he used to ask people about the watches. Can I look at your watch? Oh, it's a great watch. And he used to watch other people around. If he didn't ask them, they'd be like trying to like get their watch. Yeah, what's wrong with my watch? They'd start to be like loitering in front of his thing. I was like, guys, come on. But I thought that was really sweet because They haven't looked at their watch in days. Charlie B taking notice in it made them go, oh, actually, I want you to comment on my

SPEAKER_00:

watch as like a very fully grown adult. I think too I slow down and think about kids and adolescents like that. And how amazing is that bid for connection that Charlie's worked out? Because there's stuff that he's not interested in and that's okay. Yeah. But, hey, you wear a watch. I like watches. Let's look at your watch. Yeah, exactly. And I don't think people give enough credit to Charlie making the effort to make the connection with you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like that's his connection.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, Em, now focusing a little bit on you and I was going to say Tim, but I think it's just you because you can't speak to Tim. But looking back, how do you feel the diagnosis has affected your relationship with Charlie? And have there been any positive changes or growth experiences that you can think of?

SPEAKER_01:

I think that, yeah, it has been a gradual and really complicated change and interaction between us with the diagnosis as well. And I mean, we have to grieve. about some of the things that we thought our eldest child might experience and do and enjoy doing and be able to sort of grieve from that and not have any anger in that and then be able to process that and be able to then approach him with a new lens which is based on his own strengths and interests. rather than the strengths and interests of a typically developing child and one that our communities sort of expect kids to do. And so I think that's the biggest way of answering that, which is, grieving what we thought was going to happen and then really being able to say we have to embrace you in your entirety which means setting a new set of rules and so that's probably the best way of answering that I think that's still an ongoing thing I don't think that I think that'll be ongoing forever so it's a complicated answer but I hope I've given you a little bit of an insight into how the diagnosis and our expectations have shifted yeah and then our understanding of how and why Charlie sees the world he does and being able to really sit in that with him.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you know what I love about your answer? You didn't just go, I love him. He's amazing. He's just the most amazing kid. You know that caveat that you have to put in. Of course. Of course. Of course you love them. Yes. But it is a lot more nuanced than that. Yes. And although we don't plan to have expectations on our children, they're there.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

And the kids, regardless of who they are, don't realise your expectations. That's right.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So the adjustment to what that's going to look like is really important to flag. Yeah. I'm not sure if you have this– barrier with charlie or not but also i was thinking for the kids and teens that are on the spectrum the concept of unconscious incompetence of like them not knowing that it may be a skill that they're not going to typically fall so the l plates is is one where charlie b i assume would love to drive a car at some point so the awareness that maybe that's not going to happen for him is that on his radar yet or is he discussing it or

SPEAKER_01:

no

SPEAKER_00:

well then that's quite good

SPEAKER_01:

no he doesn't feel like he's left out or missing out He's blissfully unaware that his same age cohorts are looking down the barrel of that development. But you're right, he would 100% love to drive a car. I think that if he, we've seen his tendency to love a good ride on mower. So I suspect that he would love to do that.

SPEAKER_00:

But it's also like that whole literal brain of I am 16 and I get my L's everybody else around me is getting my L's but not having that consciousness of

SPEAKER_01:

yes

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know what I'm doing after I get

SPEAKER_01:

yes exactly and I guess that's a good point to raise because what we haven't raised up until now is Charlie's dual like he's got a couple of diagnoses he has an intellectual impairment as well as autism and ADHD so if Other kids who were 15, 20, 16 who were on the spectrum would be very aware of the license situation. And for some of those families, that might be really difficult if their child is aware but unable to yet competently be able to get their license. That would be really hard. Yeah. That would be really difficult. really difficult to explain that maybe they don't have the competency yet or the road sense yet, but it is something they can have as a goal and it's good to start.

SPEAKER_00:

Because you also don't see that even an adult, how hurtful it can be if someone tells you you don't have that skill yet. So then at 16 to not really get the nuance of it would be, yeah, a really tough discussion to have. So how about your personal growth? What do you think are some of the things that you have gained through this journey and experience?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, well, a huge growth, period of growth. When I was reflecting before about some of the parents, when I was a primary school teacher before having kids, when I sent them home to their parents, I used to think I'm not sure I could do that because I feel like I am a bit of a follower. I'm a bit of a sheep. I generally like to just probably go with the herd. never been one to be like, I'm going to do this because no one else has done it before. It's just not my personality. And so what I've had to really grow in is no one else is like Charlie. We have to have our own roadmap. We have to do things our way and really relish in that rather than be scared or intimidated or embarrassed even. Yeah. and rewrite the rule book. And that was never something that I thought would be in my skill set, but here we are. And now as an advocate also for families and kids on the spectrum, it's what I do really well, which is helping them see their new reality and help in understand how they can really be with their child in that space. So that's probably been the number one area of growth. I think the other one is really changing that perception on like a good outcome or, you know, putting in work and what the outcome is related to that effort. I had a pretty standard attitude to that before Charlie. Yeah. And now sometimes our indicator of success is we have tiny, tiny goals that we work towards with Charlie. One is where he's still really focused developing the skills to pull his socks over his heel, but he can do that. So if I get them over his toe, he does it over his heel. And every time he does that, I get that little buzz. Yeah. Kind of like what another parent might get if their child wins a swimming race or a running race or the spelling bee or whatever. Yeah. When he does that and he like, he slams his foot down and he's like, hand up, ready for the high five. And I'm like, yay, we did it. We're

SPEAKER_00:

not we,

SPEAKER_01:

you. No,

SPEAKER_00:

I think it is a we. The patience that it would take to allow the time for him to get there on his own. Yes. Because it's quicker to do it. It is. It's a we thing. You've done just as much as Charlie's done in getting there.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And like slowing down and allowing for that growth.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Talking back to our conversation that we've had with a parent, Leanne, about the tiny little bits of mindfulness or tiny little grasps of success or beautiful moments that we have to we hold on to there's an element of beauty about that where we get that from those little things whereas some other families might be reaching for really big goals and they might be like quite long-term goals and ours are very much working each day at them and we make them achievable and then we relish in that and we're like, yes, you did this tiny little thing and that's cause for celebration. So I think changing the attitude to that celebration of the tiny little wins that you do each day and then relishing in those moments of any forward progress or any little thing that he's been working on is great. cause for celebration. So that's been an area of growth as well. And I love that. And I feel like that's probably something that lots of parents could benefit from, irrespective if they had a child on the autism spectrum or not, really relishing in those tiny little wins all the time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Em, for answering those questions so open and honestly. It must not have been... easy at times to have to go back down memory lane into a place that was tough really tough

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_00:

we do appreciate everything that you do

SPEAKER_01:

oh thank you well thanks and thanks for choosing to do this topic and being the anchor for this because It does allow me to share that experience, which is good for my mental health as well. Absolutely. So thanks for agreeing to that on Wednesday before Hugh did his.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Hugh, Wednesday, just so you know. And

SPEAKER_01:

a big shout out to Hugh. Your letter, of course, as I did put in my post, really spoke to my inner soul and Kylie felt really touched by it as well. So if we did... so many of our other families would have as well. And we just want to really shout out to those people that are willing to share those personal stories because that is what's going to allow other people who are crying privately to sort of step out and say, you know, I'd like to be part of this conversation. I need to have a talk about this, which is awesome.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think it's a really good learning activity for, When you're honest about how hard or sad something makes you, it doesn't mean that you hate it or that it's fundamentally wrong, but you need to process it and you need to be able to say, I'm in the trenches right now and this is really tough. Yes. I just need a minute to feel sorry for myself.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And then I can stand back up and brush myself off and keep going.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, definitely. Well, I think that we'll explore in another whole podcast those times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who need to have the support. Absolutely. So we'll have enough warnings to have tissues ready when we start that conversation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It's very easy to turn away from the hard conversation, like turning around and sitting with someone in a place where you can't fix it. is probably the most uncomfortable position that you can be in.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

But that's where even if you're not directly going through it, that's where the growth happens.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, on that note, we are going to wrap this up. And until next week, our mantra is, and it always has been, be kind to yourself. Be kind to yourself. Love you guys. Thanks. Bye. Thanks

SPEAKER_00:

for joining us on the Neuralicious podcast. If you've enjoyed this conversation, and want to find out more, head to the Mumble Road Facebook page where we share moments from the podcast and so much more. Black stories

SPEAKER_01:

you can relate to. And we'll ask you, the Neuralicious community, how things are going at your place. We'll also answer your questions whenever we can. Until next time, be kind to yourself.

UNKNOWN:

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