What It Takes: Mikie Sherrill’s Story from Helicopters to the Statehouse

On this episode of Greetings from the Garden State, I sit down with Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill for an honest, wide-ranging conversation that covers everything from her time in the Navy to her decision to run for governor of New Jersey.

What We Cover:

• Finding Her Way to Jersey
  Mikie shares how she settled in Montclair over 15 years ago, what makes New Jersey feel like home, and why she’s embraced the state’s energy, community, and—yes—its volume.
• A Life of Service
  From her early inspiration to fly to graduating from the Naval Academy as part of the first class of women eligible for combat roles, Mikie reflects on how military service shaped her mindset, her leadership style, and her approach to adversity.
• Career Shifts and the Call to Serve Again
  After nearly a decade in the Navy, Mikie went to law school, worked as a federal prosecutor, and helped launch reentry programs for formerly incarcerated individuals. Eventually, that path led her to politics—and a run for Congress rooted in public service, not partisanship.
• Why She’s Running for Governor
  Mikie talks candidly about her frustrations with Washington, what she’s proud of in her time in Congress, and why she believes real progress—especially for small businesses, infrastructure, and affordability—starts at the state level.
• Keeping It Jersey
  We wrap with a lighter side: hiking Eagle Rock, grabbing subs from Belgiovanni’s (long hots required), and why Star Tavern still hits the spot after a long day.

Whether you’re a policy nerd, a small business owner, or someone just trying to make sense of the moment we’re in, this episode gives you a real look at the person behind the headlines—and what drives her to fight for New Jersey.

mikiesherrill.com

Transcript

Mikie Sherrill [0:00 - 0:00]: Foreign. 

Mike Ham [0:15 - 0:21]: What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Greetings from the Garden State. We're here with Congresswoman Mikey Sherrill. Congresswoman, welcome to the show. 

Mikie Sherrill [0:21 - 0:23]: Thanks so much. I appreciate it. 

Mike Ham [0:23 - 0:40]: Absolutely. So we're going to get into your story a little bit and then just kind of take it from there. So it's not, you know, it doesn't exclude you from being on the podcast, but you are not from Jersey. Originally from Virginia. Right. But you're. You're. You're from Jersey. Like, let's just say that. 

Mikie Sherrill [0:40 - 1:02]: Well, yeah, I. So I. We moved around a lot, and then I was in the Navy, so then I really moved around a lot. So New Jersey is certainly the longest I've ever lived anywhere. And it is funny because people keep telling me in Washington, they keep telling me I'm so loud. Right? 

Mike Ham [1:02 - 1:03]: What does that even mean? 

Mikie Sherrill [1:03 - 1:41]: I don't know. So, I mean, I have definitely been, like, booted out of the quiet car on the train down south, but so I'm like, what? I'm not that loud. And it's funny because people are like, oh, my God, it's. Cause you're from New Jersey. And then I get here and I tell people, I go, you know, people in Congress say I'm so loud. And everyone goes, what? You're not so loud. I go, I know, right? Like, but it is. I don't know. There is this. This. I guess. I guess you just get used to living here and there's just a lot of people. It's really densely populated. I mean, to add to it, you know, I got four kids and a dog. And I mean, you got to be loud around here to get your point across. 

Mike Ham [1:41 - 1:51]: No one's going to hear you. No one's going to pay attention. You're just going to just blow right by it. So when did you originally move to Jersey and then make it, you know, kind of your home? 

Mikie Sherrill [1:51 - 2:14]: Yeah, about 15 years ago. We were living in the city and had wanted to move out, but before I had my third kid, but we didn't quite make it, so I just had my third. And we were in the city and dying to move out to Jersey and finally found a place because at that time, homes were still affordable, unlike now. 

Mike Ham [2:14 - 2:15]: Yeah. What a world that was. 

Mikie Sherrill [2:15 - 2:59]: Right, right. It was a very different world 15 years ago. And so moved out here and it was, you know, after having three kids in the city, it was nirvana. And haven't looked back out to the country and. Yes, yes. I mean, well, it is funny cause you Know, like many New Jerseyans, I sort of like the buzz, you know, I like living in a kind of, you know, suburban. I think I remember when I moved here, I'm in Montclair, and it said, where urban meets the suburban. I don't know quite what that means, but I kind of like the feel and stuff. But, you know, I moved out here, I have deer in my yard and fox. I have a red tailed hawk. And I mean, it does. Yeah. 

Mike Ham [3:00 - 3:00]: Yeah. 

Mikie Sherrill [3:00 - 3:03]: It is kind of nature. Yeah. For some reason, it's great. 

Mike Ham [3:03 - 3:08]: I mean, we. I grew up in Morris county, but then high school age on was up in Sussex County. In Sparta. 

Mikie Sherrill [3:09 - 3:09]: Yep. 

Mike Ham [3:09 - 3:13]: And I mean, that's like the sticks, right, to, like, where we are now. 

Mikie Sherrill [3:13 - 3:16]: Yeah, it's. It's beautiful. That's very. That's a lot of nature. 

Mike Ham [3:16 - 3:52]: When my parents were still living up there, like, I'd love going up there, you know, sit with my dad on the porch, like, have a beer. It's super quiet, you know, just relaxing. But then I was like, you know, I need like a little. I need like a little action, you know, and around here, like, like you said. I said before, I live in Bloomfield, but my fiance grew up in Montclair, has lived in Montclair her entire life. I was living in Morristown when we met. So, like, obviously we had a lot of towns to choose from, but being around here now, it's like, you know, like, you get a little bit of both. Like, our neighborhood's really quiet, but when we walk 20 minutes, we're in the thick of it. And like, all these cool small businesses and local businesses and all that kind of stuff is phenomenal. 

Mikie Sherrill [3:52 - 4:04]: Well, I, you know, I think New Jersey's about perfect, other than the affordability issues and the traffic. Yeah. But for exactly that reason, we were one of the oldest states in the nation. 

Mike Ham [4:04 - 4:04]: Right. 

Mikie Sherrill [4:04 - 4:22]: So. So we are sort of what, an urban planner's dream. Right. Because you have the public transportation, you have the small town areas, you have. Everything's kind of walkable in towns around here. So you have the different, like, you know, Montclair's not huge, but we have three different town areas between the city. 

Mike Ham [4:22 - 4:24]: Yeah. Basically three different downtowns in Montclair. 

Mikie Sherrill [4:24 - 4:34]: Exactly, exactly. So I love that feeling, and I think it gives New Jersey this sort of small town feeling in a funny way. 

Mike Ham [4:34 - 4:41]: Yeah. And, you know, I mean, we will get into it more later, but. So, Naval Academy. Can I tell you a quick story about the Naval Academy? 

Mikie Sherrill [4:41 - 4:42]: Sure. 

Mike Ham [4:42 - 5:15]: That was at the top of my list coming out of High school. Like, I played baseball. I was pretty good. I wound up going to tcnj, so stayed local. But I played for a team that was based down in D.C. over the summer. One one summer. And one of our Naval Academy was top of the list. And we went to Annapolis during plebe week to play a tournament that weekend. And I was like, nope, not for me. You know, like, they're like screaming in their faces, like eating like 120 degrees out. It was crazy. So kudos to you for doing that. I mean, that was something. 

Mikie Sherrill [5:15 - 6:11]: You know, I always wanted to go there. It's funny because my dad from West Virginia was in a Boy Scout troop. And when he was little, he said they went to the Naval Academy and it was the most beautiful place he'd ever seen. And he said there was some, you know, I don't know, some probably Marine Corps guy or something telling all these Boy Scouts, like, look, we're gonna give you these blankets, but don't try to take them because we've counted every single blanket. My dad said he still remembers. He was thinking to himself, how the heck can I take one of these blankets? Then that was on his mind. But you're lucky you had that experience. Cause my four husbands from California, right, He got recruited for football. He goes to the Naval Academy with the football team. And it wasn't plebe summer. And he was with. And they took him out and about and they're going everywhere and they're telling him how great it is. And he shows up for I day for plebe summer and had no idea what he was getting. 

Mike Ham [6:11 - 6:11]: Oh, my God. 

Mikie Sherrill [6:11 - 6:12]: Had zero. 

Mike Ham [6:12 - 6:14]: A little wake up call too. 

Mikie Sherrill [6:14 - 6:15]: Exactly, exactly. 

Mike Ham [6:15 - 6:34]: I mean, that was. It was something to behold, for sure. I mean, but like you said, if you've never been there before and you just show up on like a random day, like it's gorgeous, you know, and obviously like a great school and all the stuff that they do and everything. But can we talk a little bit about, like, what made you pursue the Naval Academy and why and everything and then we'll kind of take it from there. 

Mikie Sherrill [6:34 - 8:55]: Yeah. So my grandfather was a World War II veteran. And so, you know, I grew up hearing some stories about that. My grandmother worked for the Army Air Corps in Cincinnati. And, you know, just hearing about how much he loved flying, how important it was that service and sort of the heroism that I've always associated with World War II and kind of that fight against tyranny really made me want to follow in his footsteps. So when I was in about the fifth grade, I told my dad I wanted to fly. And he said, well, it's too expensive. He said, you know, flight lessons are really expensive. You have to join the military. And I said, okay, well, I'll do that. And he said he really liked Annapolis. And I said, I'll go there. And he said, I don't know if they take women. And I said, I'll figure it out. And he said, I don't know if they let women fly. And I said, I'll figure that out, too. And I guess that's why when I think about what this country means to me at its very core, it means opportunity. It means it doesn't matter who your parents are or how much money you have or where you come from, that you're gonna have a shot. And I've seen that in my own life, because when I entered the Naval Academy, women weren't eligible for combat positions. And in the Navy, that's ships and aircraft. That's like, you could go on an oiler, but not a destroyer. Right. And I graduated in 1994 with the first class of women eligible for these combatant positions. They had lifted those restrictions. And I watched over time how being able to have a seat at the table, I mean, you cannot be competitive in the military if you were restricted from combat. You know, I mean, it makes sense, right? And so watching how people. How women were able to compete and, you know, compete and gain some of the top positions in our military, and that worries me so much, given my background and the opportunity I've seen when we see now people suggesting that we should roll back that. That. That we should take away opportunity from people. 

Mike Ham [8:55 - 9:12]: Yeah. Especially because, like, you know, after your time in the academy and then obviously during your time, you know, serving, like, you flew I don't know how many missions, like, all over the world really, like, it's. It. The proof is in the pudding. Like, it obviously can happen. You know, it's obvious. 

Mikie Sherrill [9:12 - 9:19]: You know, what's so much more interesting, too, is now we are fighting in places where there are combat positions that women have to perform. 

Mike Ham [9:19 - 9:20]: Sure. 

Mikie Sherrill [9:20 - 10:09]: And men can't. So, for example, if you're clearing a home and trying to gain intel in a Muslim country with women and children, you need to send a woman in, because those, you know, the women inside that building are not going to talk to a male soldier. So if you're trying to gain intel on weapons caches or where fighters are, they may talk to a woman soldier, but they're not gonna talk to a man. So the Lioness Squad was so important in that role and that. So having this diversity, having this fighting force that can perform any mission, you just, you know, it's not just gonna be one type of soldier or sailor. It's going to be the breath that the United States can bring to the table as a fighting force. That's gonna be important and a game. 

Mike Ham [10:09 - 10:31]: Changer at this point in your life, obviously, like, you have your breadth of experience of all the stuff that you've done since when you graduated back in 94. At the time. Because obviously it's definitely apparent now, but at the time, did you feel any kind of responsibility? Like, you mentioned that you were the first class that they lifted those restrictions on? Did you. You and your classmates. Classmates. Not a good. 

Mikie Sherrill [10:31 - 10:32]: No, yeah, my classmates. 

Mike Ham [10:32 - 10:42]: Yeah, sure. That were kind of in that group. Was there a sense of responsibility? Like, this is a big thing that, like, we're doing in a, you know, a place that really has been restrictive. 

Mikie Sherrill [10:43 - 10:44]: Huh? 

Mike Ham [10:44 - 10:46]: I know there was a question that. 

Mikie Sherrill [10:46 - 11:23]: Was looking back on it, you know. Cause I was just. One of my friends just retired from the Marine Corps, and she had, you know, some. I think a majority of the first women Marine aviators came out of our class because that was the first time they had lifted restrictions. So many of them were at this retirement. And so thinking about that and how that opened the doors, it seemed like a great responsibility. But I have to say what I was thinking about was just competing and doing the best job I could. So I guess responsibility because I wanted to prove myself. 

Mike Ham [11:23 - 11:23]: Yeah. 

Mikie Sherrill [11:23 - 11:28]: I wanted to prove, like. Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, this isn't a favor to me. 

Mike Ham [11:28 - 11:29]: Right. 

Mikie Sherrill [11:29 - 11:48]: This is me serving my country in a really powerful way. And it's, you know, it's important. And so I guess there was embedded in that, this sense of responsibility, like, I have to do that. But there was also just this personal, you know, pride and service and wanting to do a really good job for your country. 

Mike Ham [11:48 - 11:50]: The competitive thing, I totally get. 

Mikie Sherrill [11:50 - 11:50]: Yes. 

Mike Ham [11:50 - 11:57]: Like playing sports my whole life. And the college, you know, I coach college baseball for a while, too, so it's like. It's just like, how I operate. 

Mikie Sherrill [11:57 - 11:59]: Right. And you don't think about it, whatever. 

Mike Ham [11:59 - 12:00]: This is, I don't care what it is. 

Mikie Sherrill [12:00 - 12:14]: And I don't think of myself as, like, a super competitive person. I'm like a competitive person. Right. You know, I think I'm like, oh, I'm just here, you know, doing my best job. And I'm like, but what's that guy doing? Yeah, I could do better than that. Yeah, right. Exactly. 

Mike Ham [12:15 - 12:23]: All right, so after your time serving, what was the, like, the mandatory service time was what, at that point, five years? Six. 

Mikie Sherrill [12:23 - 12:31]: So it was five years for ships, but if you received aviation training, you owed extra time, so it worked out to being about nine years after graduation. 

Mike Ham [12:32 - 12:40]: Gotcha. And then. So after your time serving, did you. Foreign policy was kind of like the next thing that you got yourself into, or is it law school next? 

Mikie Sherrill [12:40 - 12:42]: I got myself into a lot. Let's see. 

Mike Ham [12:42 - 12:43]: I mean, there are a lot for sure. 

Mikie Sherrill [12:44 - 13:09]: So at the time, this was when we were entering into what would be 20 years of war, the global war on terror, and there were reports of torture and rendition and putting detainees in Guantanamo without trials or evidence or charges. So I, you know, having come up in the knee. Well, look, I grew up during the Cold War. 

Mike Ham [13:09 - 13:10]: Yeah. 

Mikie Sherrill [13:10 - 13:59]: The wall fell when I was a senior in high school. And seeing how important democratic protections were to people in our nation and having the ability to see what it looked like if you didn't have those, because the Soviet Union and all the countries it overtook, that was always looming large in everyone's mind about what these communist nations look like and the difference between not being able to freely practice your religion, not being able to speak out against the government, being imprisoned without charges if you disagreed, et cetera, et cetera. I remember one that was really chilling, is when I found out you couldn't travel without papers. You couldn't just go on a trip. And for some reason, that when I was a kid, that was like, what? Like, what if we wanted to. I remember telling what if we want to go to the beach? She's like, you'd have to get papers. 

Mike Ham [13:59 - 14:00]: Yeah. 

Mikie Sherrill [14:00 - 15:59]: Like, you'd have to ask the government, like, just that claustrophobic sense of restrictions on all your freedoms and why democracy was so important. I grew up with that, like everybody in the country did, which is why some of you know, this debate over should Ukraine have just let Putin run over him is just so offensive and ridiculous. And so I grew up like that. And then going into the military, I went to prisoner of our training camp. And there we were assured, look, you're getting tortured and waterboarded and being forced to survive in 65 below zero. Yes, I did get frostbite as training, but we will have the ability to advocate for your release should you ever be a POW because of the. We always have the moral high ground. We can get the world community to force this because we don't do this. And so to then see those Very same people from that POW training then implement a torture and rendition program. I cannot tell you how offensive it was, how it struck against. I'm like, how am I fighting in this military that is right now doing these horrible things to people that are so contrary to the values. How can I say we're fighting in the defense of freedom if we are not living by our values? So I decided when I got out of the Navy that I was going to go to law school because it was the court system that was the one entity standing against some of what we saw. Cause politicians weren't. It was politically unsavory to question in the aftermath of 9, 11, the war. And yet we needed courageous people to do that. And the courts were the one group. Not sometimes as quickly as I wanted to, but the courts were doing it. So I decided to go to law school. 

Mike Ham [15:59 - 16:02]: Okay. And then that's how the, you know, was Russian policy, right? 

Mikie Sherrill [16:02 - 16:35]: And then I was in Russia, a Russian policy officer in the Navy, right. I served in the commander in Chief of the U.S. navy European Headquarters. And so I implemented, you know, I handled, I managed the relationship between the United States Navy and the Russian Federation Navy. And then we implemented some of our, like, nuclear treaty obligations, did some exercises with the Russian fleet to try to say, like, look, if there's an emergency, we can't even talk to each other. We have such different equipment. We need some ability to do that. 

Mike Ham [16:35 - 17:00]: I gotcha. And then, so go. Go to law school. Georgetown, obviously, another great school. So doing great. I mean, that's phenomenal. So coming out of law school, can we talk a little bit about kind of obviously, like, you had your mission, like, why you decided to go to law school. When you got out of law school, were you able to start working in that place to do those. That work? 

Mikie Sherrill [17:00 - 18:15]: No. So I. That I had. Two things happened. One was one of my professors who had done that work. And I took all these courses from him in law school. He had defended a Guantanamo detainee, and he was seen as a rising star in the legal profession. And I went up to him really sincerely and said, I want to go enter into this space and constitutional rights and that kind of thing. And he said, I must say very dismissively, he said, well, first you need to learn how to practice law. And I was like, oh, well, I thought that's why I was in law school, buddy. Right? Like, why have I been taking these courses from you? So he said, you know, look, you have to either go to a law firm or go work for a Judge. And as I was in law school too, the global financial crisis happened. So I had a job in a law firm and I went there to learn how to practice law. And as I was there, you know, there. There was just a total meltdown of the economy. So I. I stayed there and. And practiced for about four years and then eventually ended up back here in New Jersey at the U.S. attorney's office as a federal prosecutor. 

Mike Ham [18:15 - 18:42]: Got it. Yeah. I mean, both my parents went to law school. That's where they met, was in law school. And then I remember, like when I was like 2008 was like the housing crisis right around then. And my dad was. Is still a title insurance attorney, like a regional counsel for like a title insurance underwriter. And it was like touch and go for a while because, I mean, there was nothing happening. It was like they were laying people off like crazy because they just. No one knew what was going on. 

Mikie Sherrill [18:42 - 18:51]: But, oh, a lot of the people I started at the firm with were laid off. And it was. And I remember thinking, you know, I really like public service. 

Mike Ham [18:51 - 18:51]: Sure. 

Mikie Sherrill [18:51 - 19:27]: And I thought I would go to this law firm and learn how to practice law and then go into some sort of public service. But. Whereas maybe the US Attorney's office had taken people, when I entered law school, had taken people out of these firms at maybe two to four years. Now they were taking people who'd worked there seven years plus because of the meltdown and all the jobs. And I was torn. I was afraid to quit because I was afraid I'd never work again. That's how it felt like, if you get out of the workforce, I don't know how you're getting back in. But I really was looking to kind of re. Engage in public service. 

Mike Ham [19:27 - 19:49]: Yeah. Okay, so then U.S. prosecutors or U.S. attorney's office, and then at what point do you decide, like, I want to get into politics. And like, how was that received? I guess let's do like at home, you know, like, was your husband into it? Was he like, yeah, let's go for it. Was he like, really politics? Like, come on, you know? 

Mikie Sherrill [19:49 - 24:01]: Yeah. So I was at the U.S. attorney's office, and I had started there. There was a hiring freeze. See my last comments about the global financial crisis. And so I interviewed and the U.S. attorney came to me and said, look, we're not hiring federal prosecutors now, but I can offer you this contract position and the smart on crime work that Eric Holder's doing. And I said, well, that sounds really interesting. I'd be happy to do that. And so I helped to start the district's first federal prisoner reentry court. And in doing that work and seeing, you know, just kind of how there just were, you know, if you look at the criminal history of so many people, you just see these inflection points where you thought, like, oh, my gosh, if somebody could have just gotten to this kid, you know, in seventh grade, we could have seen a very different outcome here, or if, you know, if there had been this other opportunity or if there had been more support. And so you start to think, you know, when you look at a criminal history with abuse or mental health issues or education issues or a drug use, I mean, all this different stuff that goes on in some families and stuff, and you just think they're but for the grace of God, right? You just start to think, wow, if I was a single mom trying to raise a young man in this community, and there's this strong, charismatic male leader that is getting kids into crime, like, how much of a chance would I stand in keeping my kid out of that kind of pathway? So you start to sense like, gosh, I wonder if there couldn't be a better way, if there's another way we can tackle and address this. Should we be putting every dime we have into the Department of Corrections, or is there more we can do? So I left the U.S. attorney's office thinking, I want to find out a better pathway here. I want to study how we can get better results, how we can use our money more wisely and get better outcomes for people. I was doing that and interviewing for several of those things. This was the first election for Donald Trump, and at that point, there were things going on that, you know, I had. I'd spent a lot of my life fighting against and things I. I was opposed to. So I decided to run for Congress. But what I first decided to do, I went to meet with a friend of mine, and I'm like, look, you know, there's all these issues people agree on. I don't know why we have to, you know, have such division in our country. So I'm gonna work to bring people together and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I mean, she was getting really bored with my idea. I could tell. I could tell, and I could see it in her eyes. So she goes, well, you just have to run for Congress. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. Seriously, I got four kids just run for Congress. Yeah. That is like, the Congress is not here. Congress is not here in Bloomfield. Congress is. Yeah. So I'm like, nah, I Don't need to do that. But I was raised Catholic, so I have a good, healthy dose of guilt. So I'm sitting here and I'm starting to think about it. I'm like, well, I do know people in federal government from my time in the Navy, and I do know people in state government from my time at the U.S. attorney's office. And I do have a husband who could probably float me for the time it would take to run. I could quit my job and do this stuff. And I'm like, the more I thought of how I could do it, the more I started to feel like I have this responsibility. I've always been a firm believer in the fact that in a democracy, we all have a part to play. We all have this responsibility, whether it's voting or canvassing or phone banking or running. So I started to feel like I had this responsibility, and I went home and I thought my husband would, like, put a stop, too, because it did seem like a really bad idea with four kids, you know. And so I came home and I said, jay, I think I'm gonna have to run for Congress. And he goes, yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's a great idea. You should do that. I asked him later, I was like, why did you say that? He goes, well, I don't know if I really thought you were going to run for Congress. And he's like, next thing I know, you got this whole campaign going, and we're off to the races. So. Yeah. But he was very, initially very supportive. 

Mike Ham [24:02 - 24:02]: Yeah. Which is great. 

Mikie Sherrill [24:02 - 24:03]: I mean, he's still been great. 

Mike Ham [24:03 - 24:07]: Yeah. You need the support system around you to make, you know, anything like that work, you know. 

Mikie Sherrill [24:07 - 24:49]: Yeah. Because it is. Yeah, it is always a big lift for the family. And I. You know, all kidding aside, I never would have done it if I didn't think that the impact of what's going on in this country right now was going to be so bad for my kids that the best thing I could do is fight for a different vision of the future. And so I did it. But it is a heavy lift on everyone. And you do, you know, you do need a good partner. And I have always been so thankful because I sometimes feel like if the shoe was on the other foot, I might be a little more of a martyr. The whole thing. Yeah, I have a suspicion. But, no, he's been great. 

Mike Ham [24:49 - 25:19]: Yeah. Which is great. I mean, with anything, it's good to have a support system. So all the stuff that you've done, Navy, you know, U.S. attorney's office, all the like, basically, if you, for lack of a better word, fights you've been in throughout your career. What's Congress like? The first time I've ever actually interviewed a congressperson, so someone like in the federal government. So I'm just curious, like, what's it like? Is it as, you know, pomp and circumstance as it seems to be, or is it sometimes. 

Mikie Sherrill [25:19 - 25:27]: Yeah, I mean, it's this weird amalgamation. You know, you get there and you're going into the Capitol building, right? 

Mike Ham [25:27 - 25:29]: Which like, I only see on tv, right? 

Mikie Sherrill [25:29 - 27:59]: And you're kind of like, what goes on in there? You know, and you're, you know, you're there and you sort of have free rein. I mean, you can go inside as a member of Congress, you can kind of wander the halls of the Capitol in the middle of the night if you want, you know, when it's empty and just kind of look at the pictures and. Yeah, and it's amazing. I mean, you know, you walk up to the Capitol building, which is so iconic, and you're like, oh, here's my office. It's really breathtaking and really awe inspiring and really amazing. And then on the flip side, you know, you find yourself in these moments where you're like, this place has got to work better. We, we can't. You know, there are so many chuckleheads here that are just fighting for themselves or just doing whatever the President wants and not thinking that this is an independent body, that we are not just to be subsumed by the executive branch. This is the legislative branch and we have a role here to play. And you just see people who, I mean, quite frankly, are cowards, they just don't want to stand up, they don't want to stick out, they want to duck their head until the crisis is over. And I do just kind of, I think a lot about my military training in a way I've never thought of it before. Because you take it for granted. You know, you probably. There are things you learned at TCNJ that now you're like, huh, that's why I do this. Or that's why I think this way. Or this professor said this. And that really impacted me. And you don't always realize that when you're young, you just think, oh, yeah, I just had to attend that class and here I am, Professor. Yeah, exactly like, yeah, you got to cave that. And now you're like, no, those words, actually they were totally true. And I think about that the military trained you to overcome maybe human instinct in a crisis, which is kind of duck and cover. And to instead make decisions and operate in that chaotic atmosphere and do something about it and not shirk your duty and not run away, but run, like I say, to the fight. And that has probably. I was saying to somebody, I mean, they've probably developed this training system in ancient Sparta, right? Like, this is what do you. And you do it because. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I remember in the military, you're constantly doing these things you don't want to do. You know, you're constantly put in a situation where you're like, this is really scary. You really don't want to go to prisoner training camp. I really don't want to be. 

Mike Ham [28:00 - 28:02]: The average human doesn't want to do any of that, you know, Like. 

Mikie Sherrill [28:02 - 28:54]: Yes. I remember afterwards, you know, you have this sort of after the training camp, you meet with the instructors to have like an after action report. And I remember this one guy looking at me saying, yeah, that was. That was kind of hard because I really don't like hitting women. And I said, huh, Really? I really didn't like being hit. So there, you know, we all have problems. Yeah, we all have to adjust. But so you do all these things you don't want to do, and you just kind of learn to do the hard things. And I. I think a lot of people, you know, in times of crisis, a lot of people's instinct is to just not get noticed, to just do the easy thing, to just stay out of it. And I can tell you everything that I've learned in my training would suggest that that is the worst thing you could do. 

Mike Ham [28:54 - 29:28]: Yeah, interesting. And I also. I always remember my parents talking about, like, because I was a political science major in college, obviously I do nothing with that now, but I always remember them saying, like, that's always a thing you can do. I mentioned they went to law school, but it helps you. Teaches you how to think critically on stuff. And I feel like the combination of those two kind of ideas when we're talking about being in politics, being in Congress, and now running for governor, all of those things combined, obviously create kind of like a interesting background that a lot of people don't have, which I think is interesting. 

Mikie Sherrill [29:28 - 29:52]: Well, I tell people it can be really hard because I remember getting out of the Navy, and I have, you know, almost 10 years of experience, and I've led men and women across the world, and I've, you know, achieved some level of success, and I've flown helicopters and stuff. And then I get to my law firm and they're they're kind of like, you don't know how to do anything. Like you're starting from. You don't even know where the stapler is. Come on. And so you start over. And it can be tough to do that. 

Mike Ham [29:52 - 29:53]: Sure. 

Mikie Sherrill [29:53 - 30:16]: And then I went to the U.S. attorney's office, which having that federal service and the legal service felt like it melded it somewhat. And, you know, some of it came together, but it really, you know, the neat part about Congress is that a lot of it came together, those aspects, understanding that. And not just that, but also the fact that I'm a mom. 

Mike Ham [30:16 - 30:17]: Right. 

Mikie Sherrill [30:17 - 32:01]: Like, you know, you would have had a hard time. I mean, I was at a law firm, you know, in the days when there weren't tons of women partners. It wasn't that long ago, and maybe it's still that way. But, you know, you would have been hard pressed to tell if you were a colleague of mine at this, you know, intense, aggressive law firm, you would have been hard pressed to talk about my family. Because I didn't talk about my family. Right. To get to Congress and have that be an added benefit is, look, I understand what it's been like trying to raise kids through Covid and the after effects of that and the mental health challenges with social media and how nobody has the tools to handle that. And what can we do better? I mean, so whether it's the military or the federal prosecutor's office or the re entry court or raising kids, all of this feels like it's come together in this time to advocate for just people across New Jersey who have all of these challenges and have faced so many of these things and, you know, just want to make sure that their family's okay, that their kids are going to be okay, that they're going to be able to retire and retire with dignity and not be out on the street. I mean, just kind of, you know, knowing kind of so many of the aspects and then again, running for governor and having all of that background, but then on top of that, the background in a legislative branch and knowing, because, you know, I mean, we have a very powerful governor in New Jersey, but we also have a very powerful legislature in New Jersey. Right. So how do you navigate that? How do you build the coalitions? I think all of that is really helpful to thinking through how you're going to lead New Jersey. 

Mike Ham [32:01 - 32:10]: Yeah, I guess that segues into my next question. So in Congress for the last, what is it now? Six years. 

Mikie Sherrill [32:11 - 32:12]: So this is my fifth. 

Mike Ham [32:13 - 32:13]: Fifth year. 

Mikie Sherrill [32:13 - 32:14]: Year. 

Mike Ham [32:14 - 32:14]: Okay. 

Mikie Sherrill [32:16 - 32:21]: No, this is my sixth. So you're right. Right. One, two, three, four, five, six, seventh year. 

Mike Ham [32:21 - 32:23]: Oh, even better. Yeah. 

Mikie Sherrill [32:26 - 32:34]: Yes. I was a history major. Yeah, I have a Bachelor of science from an engineering school, and I was a history major, so I think it's a Bible science major. 

Mike Ham [32:34 - 32:48]: I have an mba too, but that's not really like a lot of math, you know, I mean, I guess kind of it doesn't matter. So I couldn't do it either. But so from Congress, why Governor? Why. Why are you running for governor? 

Mikie Sherrill [32:49 - 35:00]: So I'm really proud of the work I've done in Congress. You know, in only my second term, I was named the most effective legislator from New Jersey in a. And I think that's because I worked really hard to build broad coalitions of people. It's actually how I ran my first race. I was running in a Trump district, and I had to really connect with people and really connect on those issues that everybody cared about. So whether you were in the People's Republic of Montclair or Lake Hopatcong, where they had MAGA flags, people cared about the state and local tax deduction or how we were gonna fund infrastructure or what we were gonna do about healthcare costs. So all of these things brought people together, building those coalitions to deliver. I continued that work in Congress. And like I said, I'm really proud of that. But right now, instead of finding that that work led to Congress working better, I think we see it even more partisan now than it was when I entered. And the focus on kind of that balance of focus on policy versus politics seems to have almost gone totally towards politics. I don't think the legislative body right now, in the wake of an executive that is ignoring court orders, ignoring Congress and congressional appropriations, and, you know, it just is driving a chaotic tariff regime. I just. With all of that going on, the place where it feels like there is a real opportunity to protect rights and freedoms and also drive down cost in New Jersey is in Trenton, it's the governor. And, you know, somebody I was talking to earlier said, you know, maybe the founding fathers knew what they were talking about with this federalism system. Right, Right. So we have the ability, outside of what's going on in the chaos in Washington, to chart a different path forward. And it's hard to envision, you know, having this much of an ability to do just that in Washington. And then also, I think we see too much coming from Washington. 

Mike Ham [35:00 - 35:00]: Right. 

Mikie Sherrill [35:01 - 35:43]: I mean, we need to start thinking in the states about what people want and what is going. Right. And what is. I mean, you Know, sometimes I'm down there and I'm like, look, we gotta, you know, we gotta drive down housing costs. We've gotta make sure that we are looking at this broken health care system. What are we going to do about transportation infrastructure? We passed the ira. Now that has to get out on the ground. Now we have to fix rural broadband, for Christ's sake. We said we were going to do it. We appropriated the money to do it. What are we doing? And so I think being on the ground in these states and building from the ground up, not the top down from Washington, is really powerful and especially right now, really necessary. 

Mike Ham [35:43 - 36:39]: Yeah, Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And like, we were talking off Mike with some of your staff before about how, like, the majority of this show for its three and a half year lifespan has been primarily local businesses and nonprofits, but also even more so, like, hospitality businesses and all that kind of stuff. And like, a lot of the things that, like, I talk to them and just kind of like pain points, like, it's. It's hard to start a business in New Jersey or, like, run a small business in New Jersey. Like, there's so many. There's so many things. We can go down a rabbit hole. And I know we're getting, like, short on time, and I don't want to, like, just do that to you, but, yeah, it's just something that I've. I've noticed and just like, talking to them and, and having, like, you know, with like, all the big events coming to Jersey. Because it's coming to Jersey, not New York, like the World cup next year, like, all these things, like, how do local businesses take advantage of that and not just get lost in the shuffle and, you know, kind of get left behind? Because I think that that happens more so than people care to realize. You know what I mean? 

Mikie Sherrill [36:39 - 38:06]: Well, that's just it. I mean, we can talk about the broad ways in which small businesses are being impacted by the chaotic tariff regime. Right. Like, the local coffee shop just sent out a note saying prices are going to go up because we import coffee beans. And we're talking to a local developer who's like, I've taken down all projects because, you know, air conditioning units are going up 30 to 40%. Sure. But we also have to mine the store and mine the home front. I mean, we got to fix permitting here because, you know, one woman was telling me, I'm paying the rent, I'm all set up, I'm ready to open my restaurant, and I'm paying a lot of money. For the rent. And I can't open because the permitting's taking forever. And so we have a huge issue of red tape and bureaucracy. And so we are going to make sure that small businesses can take advantage of the World cup coming here or get the tourism dollars from the 250th anniversary of our nation. So much of the fight, which took place right here in New Jersey, we have to invest in that, and then we have to have communications programs to tell small businesses, how can you take advantage of it? Like, look, we're going to be, as a state pushing people to this historic site. So all you main streets around it should be aware. And here's some stuff. Here's the way you get involved with the Bureau of Tourism. Here's as people are coming to the World cup and saying, you know, like, I think they were telling me, I think FIFA was telling me about 75% of the people that come to the World cup don't even go in the stadium. 

Mike Ham [38:06 - 38:11]: Well, yeah, the stadium only holds 80,000 people. There's going to be, like, millions of people coming down here, right? 

Mikie Sherrill [38:11 - 39:22]: So they're going to the fan zones, they're going down to Atlantic City, and then they're going to, you know, some number of them say, hey, while I'm here, wouldn't it be neat to learn a little about the United States, learn a little about their history? Because, oh, by the way, it's the 250th anniversary of this nation, so where did it all start? Oh, by the way, New Jersey. So taking, you know, taking advantage of that opportunity and showing small businesses, okay, we're funneling these tourism, these tourists here. You should be ready for X. We will put you on this website as places to eat, places to go see, hotels to sleep in, little shops that are cool and. And maybe you want to get some, you know, 250th tchotchkes for the tourists, or FIFA 250, whatever, whatever. But helping these small businesses be aware of all this takes an effort by the government, and then it just takes moving stuff out quickly. So you can't have, like, a pamphlet sitting on somebody's desk for five weeks, right? You have to keep moving. You have to have that desire in Trenton to serve the people of New Jersey, not to block people from progress. 

Mike Ham [39:22 - 39:56]: Yeah, I love that answer. And like I said, small businesses are like the core of everything that we do, from the podcast to the radio station to our Jersey Fest events, everything. Like, it's important to us. And those are our. Our people. You know, so we're always interested to hear what people have to say about that. But I'm curious, and I'm sure these are few and far between if you ever even get one. But if you just have a day where you got nothing to do, it's, you got the kids, you got your husband, and you guys are going to do something in Jersey. What is, like the quintessential Jersey Day for you? What are you doing? Where are you going? Where are you eating? Like, what. What are you going to. What are you going to do? 

Mikie Sherrill [39:57 - 41:08]: Oh, that is a great question. I love that. So it's. There's a lot of stuff that I would like to say we do and I've done before, and I think it's cool, like the Delaware Water Gap and different stuff. But what we actually do is we, you know, grab coffee at a place like Java Love, and then we go take the dog up to Eagle Rock and we just hike through the woods up there. And then we come back and often go to. I mean, I don't have just days off because if I have a day when I'm not working here, I'm going to soccer and lacrosse games at places like Watchung Field or Fortunado or Brookdale park or Far Afield, but run around town with that. Then we stop by, as my kids call it, Belgies Belgiovannis for subs, and everybody gets their favorite. I like the eggplant parm with long hots on it. That's key. It makes sense. I might have to try that. Yeah, yeah. It's on Bloomfield Ave. Okay. 

Mike Ham [41:09 - 41:11]: We've been to Belgiovanni, but I've never had. 

Mikie Sherrill [41:11 - 41:29]: Oh, yeah, the long hots make it. I'm telling you. Even if you like. Like a meatball parm or something, it's the long hots. And then if we're not too inundated with Italian food, we might go to Star Tavern or order out from Toro Sushi. 

Mike Ham [41:29 - 41:29]: Sure. 

Mikie Sherrill [41:29 - 41:31]: That's usually what we do. 

Mike Ham [41:31 - 41:32]: We love Star Tavern, too. 

Mikie Sherrill [41:33 - 41:36]: It's so good. Right by cemetery in an industrial park. I love it. 

Mike Ham [41:36 - 41:39]: Those are the best places. Sometimes the random holes in the wall. 

Mikie Sherrill [41:39 - 41:39]: Yeah. 

Mike Ham [41:40 - 41:54]: Well, this has been great, and I really appreciate you having me to your offices and, you know, talking with me for the last 45 minutes. It was great getting to know you, like, a little bit more on, like, a personal level than just kind of seeing you on, you know, Instagram or the TV or whatever. So thank you so much. 

Mikie Sherrill [41:54 - 41:56]: I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. 

Mike Ham [41:56 - 42:03]: Absolutely. So this has been the greenest. Big RSA podcast. I'm Mike Ham. That was Congresswoman Mikey Sherrill. Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you next time. 

Mikie Sherrill [42:03 - 42:19]: Do you wanna oh, my, my baby do you all right. Oh, tell me before you go all the way do you want alive?