The Untold Story of Ellis Island’s South Side with Jim Dessicino of Save Ellis Island

In this milestone 180th episode of Greetings From the Garden State, host Mike Ham takes you deep into one of New Jersey’s most fascinating hidden gems: the South Side of Ellis Island. Joined by Jim Dessicino, Director at Save Ellis Island, they explore the forgotten history, powerful stories, and untold legacy of this rarely seen side of one of America's most iconic landmarks.

While most people associate Ellis Island with New York and the famed Immigration Museum, Jim breaks down the reality: over 80% of Ellis Island’s acreage — including the 29 hospital buildings on Island 3 — technically belongs to New Jersey. Together, Mike and Jim tour the contagious disease hospital, end-of-life care wards, and discuss the massive public health effort that shaped the immigrant experience for millions arriving between 1892 and 1954.

👉 Topics Covered in This Episode:

• The Supreme Court ruling that determined New Jersey’s ownership of most of Ellis Island
• The 29 hospital buildings that treated infectious diseases like tuberculosis, measles, and trachoma
• The incredible sacrifices made by nurses, doctors, and staff who lived and worked on the island
• Personal immigrant stories — including Jim’s own Italian-American heritage and how his family name changed after arriving
• The shocking reality that some immigrants saw their first shower or tasted their first banana here
• The challenges Save Ellis Island faces in restoring and preserving this national treasure
• How Ellis Island connects to today’s conversations on immigration, public health, and preserving history

🎨 Special Spotlight: Save Ellis Island’s Art Workshops
Jim also shares exciting new programming bringing world-class artists, like New Jersey-based painter Mario Robinson, to offer workshops on-site — helping people experience Ellis Island in a whole new way.

🚢 Why This Episode Matters
Ellis Island isn’t just a New York landmark — it's a critical part of New Jersey’s history and America’s immigration story. With only 30,000 annual visitors compared to millions on the North Side, the South Side remains one of New Jersey’s best-kept secrets. This episode sheds light on the ongoing mission to preserve its legacy for future generations.

🎧 Perfect for Listeners Who Love:

• New Jersey history
• Hidden gems and untold stories
• Immigration history & genealogy
• Public health history
• Preservation, restoration, and cultural heritage

POWERED BY THE NEW JERSEY LOTTERY!

CHECK OUT MAYOARTS.ORG

🔗 Links & Resources:

• 👉 Save Ellis Island: Learn, Donate, Visit or Volunteer
• 👉 Book a Tour of Ellis Island’s South Side
• 👉 Greetings From The Garden State - All Episodes

Transcript

Mike Ham [0:14 - 0:51]: All right, what's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Greetings for the Garden State, powered by the New Jersey Lottery. I'm your host, Mike Ham, and we have done a lot of episodes throughout the lifespan of this show. This episode, 180. So it's been quite a run. Three and a half years. 180 episodes. We've recorded all over the state. This may be the coolest place that we've recorded at. I mean, we've done some cool spots like the Battleship New Jersey. You and I were talking about that. But some other spots that have been really impressive, just like, visually. But we're here today at Ellis island, but specifically the south side of Ellis island, correct? 

Jim Dessicino [0:51 - 0:51]: That's correct. 

Mike Ham [0:51 - 0:53]: And we're here with Jim dessicino. 

Jim Dessicino [0:53 - 0:54]: That's also correct. 

Mike Ham [0:54 - 0:55]: Nailed it. 

Jim Dessicino [0:55 - 0:56]: Yes. Unless you're in Italy, then it's incorrect. 

Mike Ham [0:56 - 1:10]: Okay, we'll get into that. So, Jim, why don't we talk a little bit about where we are, what the significance of this is, Because I think people sometimes misjudge, you know, like Ellis Island, New York, New Jersey. But there's like a. There's a whole background to that. 

Jim Dessicino [1:10 - 1:12]: It's like a Taylor Ham pork roll. 

Mike Ham [1:12 - 1:19]: Sure, yeah. But, you know, definitive. Because of the New Jersey New York divide and. 

Jim Dessicino [1:19 - 1:21]: And the Federal Supreme Court. 

Mike Ham [1:21 - 1:22]: Yeah, of course. 

Jim Dessicino [1:22 - 1:22]: Yeah. 

Mike Ham [1:22 - 1:24]: Gotta respect them, I guess. Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [1:25 - 1:52]: So, yeah, we're here on the south side of Ellis island, specifically in Island 3, on the contagious disease hospital in what would have been a room that people in their end of life care would have been in. And that's why the Statue of Liberty is in the background. So you give people who are exiting this world the best view of New York harbor and the Statue of Liberty. So I thought it would be an appropriate place for us to. 

Mike Ham [1:52 - 1:55]: For the end of my Life, make. 

Jim Dessicino [1:55 - 1:58]: A 180 degree turn on your 180th episode. 

Mike Ham [2:00 - 2:08]: No, but this is. It's so cool. So we did like a little kind of like mini tour. And this part of the island, or you said island three. 

Jim Dessicino [2:08 - 2:09]: Yes. So there's three islands. 

Mike Ham [2:09 - 2:10]: Okay. 

Jim Dessicino [2:10 - 2:11]: On Ellis Island. 

Mike Ham [2:11 - 2:11]: All right. 

Jim Dessicino [2:12 - 2:19]: And Ellis island was originally 3.3 acres, but it's now 27.4 acres. 

Mike Ham [2:19 - 2:20]: Okay. 

Jim Dessicino [2:20 - 3:45]: And the majority of that acreage is New Jersey. So it's over 81% of the acreage is New Jersey. Per the Supreme Court, 1998, there was a decision made that gave all of the newly added material to New Jersey. And that's a long and complicated story, but basically, the way that the Hudson River Divides the border between New York and New Jersey. The stuff the water of New York harbor is New Jersey's. The pre existing islands were New York. So the Statue of Liberty is on Liberty island, which is owned by New York. And the pre existing 3.3 acres of Ellis island is in New York. But all of the fill, which the majority of came from New York City, from digging out the tunnels for the subway that now belongs to New Jersey since 1998. And so then our organization that I work for, Save Ellis island was founded in 1999. Governor Christy Todd Whitman formed a committee to create an organization that would be like a parallel organization for New Jersey to the other organization that existed for a long time, which is the Statue of Liberty Ellis Island Foundation. But that's a New York based foundation. 

Mike Ham [3:45 - 3:46]: Sure. 

Jim Dessicino [3:46 - 3:55]: So we're the New Jersey Foundation. We've been operating since 1999 and we're very proud to be New Jersey. 

Mike Ham [3:55 - 3:55]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [3:55 - 3:57]: You know, landfill and all. 

Mike Ham [3:58 - 4:17]: Yeah, there's plenty of jokes in there, I'm sure. But you know, I do think that it's interesting because like you talked about or before we got on the mic, really. I think because people don't realize that aspect of Ellis island, the multiple islands, the different, you know, acreage and all that kind of stuff. It's New Jersey's best kept secret. 

Jim Dessicino [4:17 - 4:18]: Absolutely. 

Mike Ham [4:18 - 4:18]: Really? 

Jim Dessicino [4:19 - 4:19]: Best kept secret. 

Mike Ham [4:19 - 4:20]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [4:20 - 4:24]: And we want to make it no longer a secret. I think that's part of the reason. 

Mike Ham [4:24 - 4:25]: That we're, we're trying to get the. 

Jim Dessicino [4:25 - 5:20]: Word out, get the word out that the history of immigration into the United States and the history of public health and we'll talk about both those things later. But both of those things kind of stem through these hospitals that are here. There's 29 hospital buildings on the New Jersey side of ellis Island. There's 35 buildings in total on all of Ellis Island, New York and New Jersey combined. But we have 29 of those buildings. And it's our mission and goal to tell that. Our mission is to tell the story, to reinterpret that story for new generations. And then the goal is to restore some of these buildings beyond the level of arrested decay so they can be used for future generations. So we can preserve that history that's not just important to New Jersey, but to all people all over the world. 

Mike Ham [5:20 - 5:20]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [5:20 - 5:29]: You know, 40% of people in the United States can trace their ancestry through Ellis Island. Yeah, that's a large amount of people. 

Mike Ham [5:29 - 5:30]: Totally. 

Jim Dessicino [5:30 - 6:00]: Especially because Ellis island only operated from 1892 until 1954. And the immigration law of 1924 really changed the way immigrants came through. So very few immigrants came after 1924 through Ellis Island. So we're talking, like, basically 1900 to 1924. 12 million immigrants came through Ellis island, which is like, really. 

Mike Ham [6:01 - 6:31]: It's hard to even, like, wrap your head around that number and just to, like, think about, like, you know, obviously we're, you know, in the hospital buildings and all that kind of stuff over here, but just, like, the sheer volume of people coming over on essentially a daily basis. And then, you know, in here, there, like, we talk. We'll talk about some of the stuff that you could see on the tour and different things on this side. But, you know, the. The, you know, pre Hospice. Hospice, where we're in, you know, all the infectious. Like, we went to the measles ward before. 

Jim Dessicino [6:31 - 6:31]: Tuberculosis. 

Mike Ham [6:31 - 6:48]: Tuberculosis ward. We went a morgue. You know, like, all that kind of stuff, I think, is really just kind of like when you start to put together, like, the sheer amount of people that are coming over here, but then, like, the challenges of making sure that they, you know, are both healthy and safe and all that, you know. 

Jim Dessicino [6:48 - 6:56]: Yeah. And I think the reason Ellis island even started is because the hospitals in New York City said, we're being overwhelmed. 

Mike Ham [6:56 - 6:56]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [6:56 - 7:23]: With people that have contagious and loathsome diseases. That's the terminology of the time, the prevalence of the time. We can't take them. Please put them on an island so we can quarantine them. Right. So we all remember, like, five years ago and quarantining and all that stuff. These ideas date back to Ellis Island. Like, the NIH got its start on Ellis Island. 

Mike Ham [7:23 - 7:23]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [7:24 - 7:56]: So it's a really big, big story. And my job, part of my job is to interpret that story for this generation, because as we move further and further away from the people who actually immigrated to the United States through Ellis island, we need to reframe what happened and why it was so monumental and how it continues to shape the history and the life of the United States. 

Mike Ham [7:56 - 7:56]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [7:56 - 8:05]: Like, people's exposure to other nations and people's exposure to different diseases and people's exposure to different cultures. 

Mike Ham [8:05 - 8:05]: Right. 

Jim Dessicino [8:06 - 8:10]: Kind of all centralized in this one port of entry. Right? 

Mike Ham [8:10 - 8:11]: Yeah. Everybody. 

Jim Dessicino [8:11 - 8:13]: Yeah, Everybody came through here. 

Mike Ham [8:13 - 8:13]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [8:13 - 8:16]: Yeah. Marcus Garvey. 

Mike Ham [8:16 - 8:31]: There you go. So one of the things I was curious about and I asked you off mic, and you said it would be a good story to kind of hang on to for now was your involvement with Savelle Asylum. You said you turned down this job multiple times. 

Jim Dessicino [8:32 - 8:39]: Yeah. Maybe we reframe that. No, it's only because. Only because I live so far away. Sure. 

Mike Ham [8:39 - 8:41]: Exactly. Yeah. It's not like. It's like, right around the corner. 

Jim Dessicino [8:41 - 8:45]: I have two little kids and I live just outside of Atlantic City. 

Mike Ham [8:45 - 8:47]: Right. Which is not close. We established that, too. 

Jim Dessicino [8:47 - 8:48]: Two and a half hours. 

Mike Ham [8:48 - 8:51]: Yeah. So it's like the worst. You have the worst commute, maybe in the state. 

Jim Dessicino [8:53 - 8:57]: Maybe. I don't know. Some people, you know, I have friends that work for the railroad. Their career might be worse. 

Mike Ham [8:57 - 8:57]: Yeah, that's pretty bad. 

Jim Dessicino [8:59 - 9:07]: But it's a really cool job and a very prestigious position and a very unique position. 

Mike Ham [9:08 - 9:08]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [9:08 - 9:34]: And so I wrestled with it for a long time, a few months, and ultimately our CEO, Janice Colella, convinced me that I needed to be here. And she was right, you know, And I have a very strange background that kind of made me the right candidate for this. So. Yeah, I guess we can talk. 

Mike Ham [9:34 - 9:39]: Yeah. What is that background? So we love people with strange backgrounds. That's like one of my favorite things. 

Jim Dessicino [9:39 - 9:51]: So I am a third generation Italian American from Atlantic City, born in the Frank Sinatra wing of the Atlantic City Medical Center. 

Mike Ham [9:51 - 9:52]: That's as New Jersey as it gets. 

Jim Dessicino [9:52 - 9:59]: Right there to two Italian Americans who met each other working at Caesars as baccarat dealers. 

Mike Ham [9:59 - 10:00]: Great. I love this. 

Jim Dessicino [10:00 - 10:07]: Yeah. I'm like a caricature of everything Italian American in. In New Jersey. 

Mike Ham [10:07 - 10:07]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [10:08 - 11:10]: And so, like. But I grew up outside of Atlantic City and in and around Atlantic City. And so I didn't really think much about my heritage until I went to college in Philadelphia at the University of the Arts RIP and did a study abroad through Temple University in Rome because I was studying sculpture and I opened up my art history textbook and everything that I loved was either in the Capitoline Museums or the Vatican Museums. And so I said, I gotta go there. And so at the encouragement of a few teachers and classmates, I ended up doing a study abroad in Rome. And that changed my whole life. So I discovered, like, my Italian heritage. I discovered contemporary Roman culture, the music and the food, and made a lot of friends there and ended up getting a job working at the Vatican museums. 

Mike Ham [11:11 - 11:11]: Sick. 

Jim Dessicino [11:11 - 11:47]: And St. Peter's Basilica through a really good friend of mine, Emma Del Balzo, who had written a letter to the Cardinal Comastre about tourism. And if you've ever been to the Sistine Chapel, it's like a little door that tour guides can go and take people directly to St. Peter's yeah, that's only available to, like, licensed tour guides. But it was preventing A lot of pilgrims from being able to go to St. Peter's Basilica because of the big long lines. 

Mike Ham [11:47 - 11:48]: Right. 

Jim Dessicino [11:48 - 14:02]: So Emma, through magic, basically convinced the Vatican that it was a good idea to let native English speaking guides take people into St. Peter's Basilica. And so, you know, silly me, fresh out of college, got to take people through one of the most beautiful collections of art in the world. And I got to go to St. Peter's Basilica every day. Wow. For like two years. And so that, you know, that's a weird aside, but like many other things happened, I put that part of my life away. I started working in the arts as a sculptor, as an assistant to artists, and in fine art, shipping and logistics, and then into museums. And at some point I got an exhibition out in California to do art about my ancestry and about a pile of documents that I found in my grandmom's house when I bought it from my father. So I went into the attic and I found my grandfather's Italian passport, my great grandfather's Italian passport, my letters from my family. And so all of a sudden, all these emotions were being stirred up because before I was like, oh, I'm an American that lived in Italy. And now I'm like, oh, no. I have cousins that are still alive in Italy. They look just like me. I can talk to them now. And I want to get to know these people and I want to talk about this through the language that I know, which is visual art. So I made an exhibition, solo exhibition, called Without Papers that showed at Cuesta College in San Luis Obispo. And then it came back to New Jersey and it showed at Stockton University, the Noise Museum, Kramer hall in Hammonton, which is where a lot of my family emigrated, you know, to or immigrated to. And they were having their 150th anniversary of the town. So that kind of all lined up. 

Mike Ham [14:02 - 14:02]: Very cool. 

Jim Dessicino [14:02 - 14:09]: This immigrant experience happened to directly. You want to take a pause with that? 

Mike Ham [14:09 - 14:10]: No, we'll be fine. 

Jim Dessicino [14:10 - 14:22]: That immigrant experience just kind of lined up exactly with what I was thinking about, with the history of that town all at that time. And also during that first migrant crisis. 

Mike Ham [14:22 - 14:22]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [14:23 - 14:38]: Where people were like, washing up dead on the shores of Sicily. And so I needed to make some art about that. So I did that. And then nothing really happened. And I didn't really sell much of that. That show. 

Mike Ham [14:39 - 14:40]: It's the Life of an artist. 

Jim Dessicino [14:40 - 14:40]: Yeah. 

Mike Ham [14:40 - 14:43]: Like, and I. I understand, you know. 

Jim Dessicino [14:44 - 14:48]: So then I kind of didn't think about that for a long time. 

Mike Ham [14:49 - 14:50]: Put it in a box Put it away. 

Jim Dessicino [14:51 - 15:26]: Put it in a box. Put it away. Started working for a company called Romart Residencies that takes people to Italy, teaches them painting, drawing, sculpture, and it's an artist retreat program. And we've done that for, like, seven years. And in the middle of all that, I started restoring religious statuary. So. For my local Catholic church. And that restoring religious statuary got me to restoring a nativity scene for the Irish pub in Atlantic City. 

Mike Ham [15:26 - 15:27]: A classic. 

Jim Dessicino [15:27 - 15:33]: A classic, yes. And also the place where I first laid eyes on my wife. 

Mike Ham [15:34 - 15:37]: And then at what time of day was it? I know it's 24 hours a day. 

Jim Dessicino [15:37 - 15:39]: It was nighttime on Christmas 2011. 

Mike Ham [15:39 - 15:41]: Oh, there you go. That's great. 

Jim Dessicino [15:42 - 15:42]: Christmas present. 

Mike Ham [15:42 - 15:43]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [15:43 - 15:58]: Thank you, Kathy. And so I restored the nativity scene for the Irish pub in Atlantic City, which then led to me building a giant beer can for. For Kelsey Grammer for the. 

Mike Ham [15:58 - 16:00]: Oh, like, yeah, his beer line or whatever. 

Jim Dessicino [16:01 - 16:08]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Faith American Brewing Company. And through Kathy. And that became a prop for a parade flute. 

Mike Ham [16:08 - 16:11]: Yeah. And this is a crazy story. 

Jim Dessicino [16:11 - 17:05]: This is a crazy story. So through all that, I discovered in a roundabout way that Kathy Burke is the president of our board of directors. And she had been talking to the CEO, and the CEO was sick of hearing about this guy who restored things. So she looked me up on Google and saw the exhibition that I had made and then a bunch of other art, because I had another life where I sculpted the statue of Edward Snowden and the whole world cared about me for about 30 seconds. And so that's the story of how I came to be here. She called me and said, your understanding of immigration is very compelling. I would like you to do art stuff on Ellis Island. Yeah, that sounds really cool. 

Mike Ham [17:05 - 17:05]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [17:05 - 17:09]: But it's really far away from my house and I have, like a three month old. 

Mike Ham [17:09 - 17:10]: Yeah, yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [17:10 - 17:20]: So, so anyway, yeah, after a bunch of conversations, I ended up here. And it's such a cool place. 

Mike Ham [17:20 - 17:20]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [17:20 - 17:44]: And not enough people get to see it. And so that's really what we're working towards, is increasing visibility because we have 3.8 million visitors a year to the Statue of Liberty. Over a million and a half of them go to ellis Island. Only 30,000 of them come to the south side of Ellis Island. 

Mike Ham [17:44 - 17:44]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [17:44 - 17:49]: And I think it's really just because people don't know that they can come here. 

Mike Ham [17:49 - 18:38]: Yeah. I think when we first talked. And that was like two months ago. Yeah, like two months ago when you first reached out and we started talking about doing this, and I think I called you, like, immediately, I was like, this is so dope. Like, we gotta do something. But, like, I remember, you know, my. Well, when you. When you first reached out, I did not know even about this side of Ellis island. And I spend my career right now is to talk about things in New Jersey. And I didn't. I wasn't even aware, but I think it was just because, like, when I was a kid and I told you, probably like 10 years old or whatever, I remember taking the ferry, you know, by the Statue of Liberty. Didn't go, you know, to Liberty island and then over here or over there to, you know, the New York side of Ellis Island. And, you know, you do the sketching or the etching of the. The names on the wall. 

Jim Dessicino [18:38 - 18:40]: You had. Your family's name was on the wall. 

Mike Ham [18:40 - 19:24]: Yeah, yeah, I found a couple. Well, I mean. I mean, I think it was. But because, you know, the. At that point, my grandfather's side is DiLorenzo, and there's lots of DiLorenzo. A thousand. So I etched a bunch. I think I did actually find his father or stepfather or something, and maybe his mother as well. And then my grandmother's side, because she had come through here also after World War II. And just, like, I think that was just kind of like what I had in my head. And I was like, oh, it just needs a little, you know, judging. But I didn't realize that this was like a whole other world, because especially when you talk about people that spent how many days, weeks, coming all the. 

Jim Dessicino [19:24 - 19:25]: Way over to a month? 

Mike Ham [19:25 - 19:46]: Yeah, two weeks to a month coming over here, you know, crammed onto ships, coming into New York harbor, coming into Ellis Island. But then the, like, necessity of a thing like this, you know, all these hospital buildings to make sure that you, like you said before, you're not transmitting. Transmitting diseases. You know, you're protecting, like, your own citizens as well as the people that are coming in, you know, to. To. 

Jim Dessicino [19:46 - 19:46]: To. 

Mike Ham [19:46 - 20:00]: Through Ellis Islands. Excuse me. But then, just, like, the more I kind of. I learned about it, and the more I tried to, like, you know, learn a little bit, as much as I kind of wanted to, because I did want to hear it from you as well and kind of get the full, like, experience as I get to know. 

Jim Dessicino [20:00 - 20:11]: It, you know, I'm still getting to know it, too. And it just, like, the more you dig, the deeper it gets. It's like one of those deep mysteries because there's a lot of mythology built up around it. 

Mike Ham [20:11 - 20:11]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [20:12 - 20:26]: And unless you were, you know, a sick person here, you didn't need to come to this hospital. So most of the immigrants out of the 12 million, like 11 million of them never came to this side. 

Mike Ham [20:26 - 20:26]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [20:26 - 20:47]: Like, they might have gotten, like, a broken toe fixed or something. Sure. And they. They went to the. Pardon me, the Island 2 Hospital, the General Hospital, you know, and got stitched up or fixed up and then went on their way. But, you know, there were women, 350 plus babies were born on this island. 

Mike Ham [20:47 - 20:48]: That's insane. Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [20:48 - 20:52]: So it's like this is a site where people entered into the world. 

Mike Ham [20:52 - 20:53]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [20:53 - 20:54]: That's huge. 

Mike Ham [20:54 - 20:55]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [20:55 - 20:58]: People exited the world here, too, in this room that we're sitting in. 

Mike Ham [20:58 - 20:58]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [20:59 - 21:34]: So it's a rich history. It's filled with, like, positive stories, it's filled with negative stories, and it's just. It's very complex. And so that's why people keep writing books about here and, like, making movies that incorporate it. I think it's why the street artist JR came here 11 years ago and did his exhibition here. That's still ongoing. And it's why we started giving tours of this space, because it's a very expensive place to restore. 

Mike Ham [21:34 - 21:35]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [21:36 - 21:44]: We don't get any federal funding. We haven't gotten any federal funding since it became surplus government property back in 1954. 

Mike Ham [21:44 - 21:45]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [21:45 - 21:55]: So, like, we're used to that. But exposure and letting people know that this place exists and this place matters. 

Mike Ham [21:55 - 21:55]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [21:56 - 22:05]: Is so important. And it's like this is the initiation point for 40% of the United States. 

Mike Ham [22:05 - 22:05]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [22:05 - 22:08]: This one island or three islands. 

Mike Ham [22:08 - 22:09]: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [22:09 - 22:12]: Right. But this is where the story starts. 

Mike Ham [22:12 - 22:49]: For a lot of people. Yeah. And I think, too, like, you know, when we first walked over here and I started, you know, like, when we walked in and you're like, there's a morgue down there. And I was like, oh, let's go see it. But then I did not realize that there was. It's a teaching. It was a teaching hospital. And then we started looking at, like, we went into one of the bathrooms where in, like, the nurses station over there. And it was just, like, all, like, marble and, like, gorgeous, you know, and, like, talking about how you wanted to make people comfortable and happy and as much as you possibly could in that time, dealing with, you know, like you said, whatever the parlance of the time was. 

Jim Dessicino [22:49 - 22:50]: Contagious. 

Mike Ham [22:50 - 23:01]: Contagious and loathsome diseases. Yeah. But they're dealing with that every day and. But they're living here with their families and all that. To me, like, that's something that clearly doesn't get Talked about enough at all. 

Jim Dessicino [23:01 - 23:07]: I mean, the story of the nurses alone is like worthy of multiple films. 

Mike Ham [23:07 - 23:08]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [23:08 - 23:24]: Because they had to be single, like between 25 and 35. They lived here. They got one day a week off. They were never fully staffed. It was like asking a regular person to basically become a cloistered nun and deal with dying people. 

Mike Ham [23:24 - 23:25]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [23:26 - 23:35]: Not that the death rate was high here. Like it was very, very low even, like for modern technology, it was low even for now. 

Mike Ham [23:35 - 23:35]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [23:36 - 23:45]: But to work with people that had tuberculosis and trachoma and favis and all these diseases you don't even hear about now. 

Mike Ham [23:45 - 23:45]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [23:46 - 24:34]: You know, measles is back in the news. But like all these old diseases, these women were selfless, man. They were really something else. And some of them worked here for very long periods of time. And the doctors would come here with their families and their kids would get ferried over to school on Governor's Island. That's a huge sacrifice. And just thinking about that, that life of service, to be able to tell that story to people on a tour over and over again. It's a worthy cause. And to preserve these buildings so we can tell that history not on just like a flat piece of ground and say, oh, that used to be here. Yeah. 

Mike Ham [24:34 - 24:35]: Right. 

Jim Dessicino [24:35 - 24:45]: There are these 29 extent hospital buildings. And with your support, with your support, we can fix some of them. Right, right. 

Mike Ham [24:45 - 24:46]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [24:46 - 25:01]: And we can turn them into exhibition halls and we can activate them and we can do classes in there and bring school groups and all that work. You know, that's been the mission of save ellis island for 25 years. 

Mike Ham [25:01 - 25:02]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [25:02 - 25:07]: And we've raised $75 million since 1999 doing that. 

Mike Ham [25:07 - 25:08]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [25:08 - 25:15]: You know, but it could take upwards of $1 billion to sell 29. 

Mike Ham [25:16 - 25:36]: There's so much here, you know, and yeah, it would be an incredible undertaking. But I mean, even that number that you just said with working on the awareness side of it is an impressive number to reach. But now it's just continuing to make it not New Jersey's best kept secret, but just something that is great about New Jersey. 

Jim Dessicino [25:36 - 25:37]: Yes. 

Mike Ham [25:37 - 25:37]: You know. 

Jim Dessicino [25:37 - 25:58]: Yeah. So like let me put it to you this way. In the 80s, when they restored the north side of the island before there was the New Jersey, New York split, the part that they restored, like the project that did the Statue of Liberty and the Immigration museum, that cost $156 million. 

Mike Ham [25:58 - 25:58]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [25:58 - 26:04]: Okay, but that was the 80s, right. Construction costs have ballooned since then. Yep. 

Mike Ham [26:05 - 26:08]: Plus another 40 years of wear and tear. 

Jim Dessicino [26:08 - 26:34]: 40 years of wear and tear. And so the buildings are very, very solid buildings. They're built incredibly well. But, you know, it gets cold here and there's ice and so freeze thaw does a number. The salinity in the water does a number. And the windows break. And who's going to replace the windows? Who's going to replace the roof? Like, those aren't exactly sexy donations. 

Mike Ham [26:34 - 26:34]: Sure. 

Jim Dessicino [26:35 - 26:51]: And so we've been really great at raising funds and getting state grants. The State of New Jersey Historic Cultural Trust have been great to us. But it's a national, if not international. 

Mike Ham [26:51 - 27:39]: Project really, when we're talking about this stuff. And I, I think I know the answer to this already, but you and I have talked once before we met today and just kind of like hearing your story, but then also kind of like as I'm learning more about the story of this part of Ellis island and Save Ellis island as an organization, obviously like you said, you're still learning every day of just all the stuff that has gone on here. But that's gotta be like, especially for somebody like you, just such a cool part of the job. And I'm sure just like a never ending learning process. Because to be able to tell the story in an effective way, you need to be the, the preeminent source of, you know, information really. Or at least. Well, we have like a ballpark. Yeah. Team. 

Jim Dessicino [27:39 - 27:45]: Really great tour guides. Yeah. Know a lot of stuff. And everything that I know about this place I learned from them. 

Mike Ham [27:45 - 27:51]: Right. But to be able to, like communicate that story to, you know, other people is important. 

Jim Dessicino [27:51 - 28:13]: I mean, to anybody who's interested in, in the project. Right. Like in donating or doing a workshop. Like, we're, we're starting to do art workshops on the south side of Ellis Island. And so telling that story in a compelling way and like picking which artists to bring here, because you can't just bring any. 

Mike Ham [28:13 - 28:13]: Yeah. Any Schmo. 

Jim Dessicino [28:14 - 28:18]: Yeah. Yeah. Now we need to look up an artist named Joe Schmoe. 

Mike Ham [28:18 - 28:21]: Joe Schmo, if you list. Sorry, Joe, you gotta. Yeah, you're not coming. 

Jim Dessicino [28:22 - 28:54]: But, you know, the first painting workshop that we're doing here is a watercolor workshop with Mario Robinson. And Mario Robinson is a world renowned watercolorist and oil painter, but he's here in New Jersey. He's based in New Jersey. New Jersey. And he's a veteran. So it was like, okay, here's a guy who loves the United States. He loves the history of the United States. He's also a great painter. Like, more importantly than anything, he's A great painter. 

Mike Ham [28:54 - 28:54]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [28:54 - 29:05]: He's a really smart and compassionate guy and he loves the Statue of Liberty. I didn't know that when I called him. Yeah, I just called him because I said I'd love to take a watercolor class with Mario Robinson. 

Mike Ham [29:05 - 29:06]: Selfish reasons. 

Jim Dessicino [29:06 - 29:07]: Selfish reason. 

Mike Ham [29:07 - 29:07]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [29:08 - 29:43]: And so I called him and I told him about the mission. Basically exactly what I'm telling you now. And he said, oh, of course, I'd love to come and do that. So he's coming August 22nd to the 24th. He's doing a three day workshop here so people have the chance to paint the hospital buildings of. A chance to paint the Immigration Museum, a chance to paint like Governor's Island, Brooklyn and Manhattan and the Statue of Liberty, all from a particular vantage point that like nobody else has ever done before. 

Mike Ham [29:43 - 29:44]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [29:44 - 29:46]: And I think that's pretty monumental. 

Mike Ham [29:46 - 30:19]: Sure. Yeah, it's a significant thing, for sure. The Mayo Performing Arts center is the heart of arts and Entertainment in Morristown, New Jersey. MPAC presents over 200 events annually and is home to an innovative children's arts education program. To see Impact's upcoming schedule of world class concerts, stand up comedy, family shows and more, head to mayoarts.org or just click the link in our show notes. I want to shift gears real fast because I think it's an interesting story, Jim dessicino, but if you go to Italy, you say something different. Well, you say Desiccino. 

Jim Dessicino [30:19 - 30:19]: Yeah. 

Mike Ham [30:19 - 30:22]: So. But that's part of the Ellis island story too. Really? 

Jim Dessicino [30:22 - 30:32]: Sort of. Yeah, it's kind of like a misnomer. People always say they get their name changed at Ellis Island. Yeah, My last name got changed in a small town called Egg Harbor City. 

Mike Ham [30:33 - 30:33]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [30:33 - 31:01]: And so our, our family, the name comes from a small city like two and a half hours east of Rome called Sulmona. It's the town that Ovid, the Roman poet came from. And the last name was Tessaccini, starting with a T and ending with an I. But in old Abruzzese dialect, the D becomes a, the T becomes a D, and the Germans. Because Egg Harbor City started out as an all German town. 

Mike Ham [31:01 - 31:02]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [31:02 - 31:06]: Some reason I was like, my family was like the three Italian families that were there. 

Mike Ham [31:08 - 31:09]: Which is also unique for New Jersey. 

Jim Dessicino [31:09 - 31:10]: Yes. 

Mike Ham [31:10 - 31:10]: You know. 

Jim Dessicino [31:10 - 31:16]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There were like, no why we went there. I mean, other than to build a railroad. Yeah, that's why they were there. 

Mike Ham [31:16 - 31:16]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [31:16 - 31:49]: But one of three Italian families in an all German town. And they said, what's your last name? And you know, Abruzzese dialect cuts off the vowels at the end. And so they just said the sheen. And they're like, oh, de chine. How do you spell that? You know, and they put a. They couldn't write, so it was D, E, S, S, I, C, I, N, O. And if you go to the cemetery plot in Egg Harbor City and you look at the family name, it's spelled six different ways in the same plot. 

Mike Ham [31:50 - 31:51]: But all the same family. 

Jim Dessicino [31:51 - 32:06]: Yeah, all the same family. All the exact same people from the same nine kids of the two people that came over. Yeah. So that's. Yeah, that's one of those weird. They changed my name at Ellis Island. Did they really? 

Mike Ham [32:06 - 32:07]: Yeah. Right. 

Jim Dessicino [32:07 - 32:14]: It didn't. You know, because if our name got changed in Egg harbor, then maybe your name got changed in Bloomfield or. 

Mike Ham [32:14 - 32:14]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [32:14 - 32:16]: Or Morristown. 

Mike Ham [32:16 - 32:16]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [32:16 - 32:18]: Wherever. Jersey City. 

Mike Ham [32:18 - 32:18]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [32:18 - 32:21]: And not in. Not at Ellis Island. Yeah. 

Mike Ham [32:21 - 32:22]: So stop giving Ellis Island a bad rap. 

Jim Dessicino [32:22 - 32:28]: Yeah. I mean, I have the ship manifest. Yeah. It says test Achini with a T and an I on the manifest. 

Mike Ham [32:28 - 33:01]: Yeah. So shifting back towards the kind of, like, the history. And as we're talking more about history and stuff, and I asked you, before you learning the history of this side of the island and what the project is and all that, have there been stories that you've learned since working here that are some of the ones that, like, really stand out as, like, you know, if you're telling. If you're trying to convey the importance of the island and you need to, you know, you got one in the holster and you need to give a story, you're like, hey, look at this. This is so cool. Like, what would you say? 

Jim Dessicino [33:01 - 33:06]: I don't want to ruin, like, somebody's tour. Tell a tour guide story. That's not mine. 

Mike Ham [33:06 - 33:06]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [33:07 - 33:10]: I encourage people to come. Come visit and experience it for yourself. 

Mike Ham [33:10 - 33:11]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [33:11 - 33:30]: But I think just the story of what people were fed here who were in the hospital is the most enlightening thing to me. And that a lot of people, the first shower they ever had in their life was at the Ellis Island Hospital. 

Mike Ham [33:30 - 33:30]: Wow. 

Jim Dessicino [33:30 - 33:31]: Right. 

Mike Ham [33:31 - 33:31]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [33:31 - 33:45]: Because, like, if you're coming from, like, Poland at that time, and you had, like, lived in an isolated Jewish community, you might have never experienced a shower before. 

Mike Ham [33:45 - 33:45]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [33:45 - 33:47]: And that's wild. 

Mike Ham [33:48 - 33:48]: It is. 

Jim Dessicino [33:48 - 33:53]: Like, you also might have never experienced a banana. 

Mike Ham [33:53 - 33:53]: Sure. 

Jim Dessicino [33:53 - 33:56]: So you might bite the peel. 

Mike Ham [33:56 - 33:58]: Yeah. Just not knowing. 

Jim Dessicino [33:59 - 34:00]: Or an orange. 

Mike Ham [34:00 - 34:00]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [34:00 - 34:13]: Same thing. Right. Because there are all these luxuries in the United States that didn't exist in most of Europe for the poorest of the poor. Right. Because like, nobody leaves their hometown because the situation is good. 

Mike Ham [34:13 - 34:14]: Good. Yeah. Right. 

Jim Dessicino [34:14 - 34:33]: Except me, I guess. Like, you know, even. Even when I left, it was like the world financial crisis was right behind me. Yeah. So nobody really leaves because things are. Are good. You leave because you're basically forced out. Right. Like the potato famine. The Irish were being starved by the English. 

Mike Ham [34:33 - 34:34]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [34:34 - 34:41]: It wasn't that they only wanted to eat potatoes, and potatoes weren't growing. They were forcibly. It was either starve to death. 

Mike Ham [34:41 - 34:42]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [34:42 - 34:57]: Or go. And so a lot of the Irish left. Same thing happened to the Italians. Like, after the unification of Italy, the south of Italy emptied out because the northern Italians didn't think the southern Italians were the same level of human. 

Mike Ham [34:57 - 34:58]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [34:58 - 35:01]: You know, and this is a over and over again story of. 

Mike Ham [35:01 - 35:02]: Right. Throughout history. 

Jim Dessicino [35:03 - 35:29]: Other people. Yeah. And so I think that idea that you come to America and whatever your situation is, because it wasn't easy for a lot of these people. There was no welfare here. Right. Like, the main reason that they inspected people other than public health concern was to see if they could afford to support themselves in the United States. They didn't want you to become a public charge. 

Mike Ham [35:29 - 35:29]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [35:29 - 35:38]: One way that you could get deported is by not having a pair of shoes. So if you didn't have enough money to have a pair of shoes, you might get deported. 

Mike Ham [35:38 - 35:39]: Wow. 

Jim Dessicino [35:39 - 35:41]: I mean, somebody might steal your shoes on the boat. 

Mike Ham [35:41 - 35:42]: Yeah. Just. 

Jim Dessicino [35:42 - 35:48]: And you're just an unlucky guy. And now you can't get into the United States because you don't have shoes. 

Mike Ham [35:48 - 35:50]: Yeah. Because some jerk took your shoes on the boat. 

Jim Dessicino [35:50 - 35:51]: Took your shoes on the boat. 

Mike Ham [35:51 - 35:51]: Right. 

Jim Dessicino [35:51 - 36:02]: You could have been perfectly healthy when you left the port of Naples, but you were in steerage under the water in the dark for two weeks with three layers of bunk beds. 

Mike Ham [36:02 - 36:03]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [36:03 - 36:05]: And somebody's puking all over you every night. 

Mike Ham [36:05 - 36:06]: Oh, my God. 

Jim Dessicino [36:06 - 36:07]: And you show up here and you're sick. 

Mike Ham [36:07 - 36:08]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [36:08 - 36:12]: So those are the stories that really, like. 

Mike Ham [36:14 - 36:15]: Wow. Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [36:15 - 36:21]: How fortunate is my family and your family and all the other families that actually made it through. 

Mike Ham [36:21 - 36:22]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [36:23 - 36:23]: And stuck it out. 

Mike Ham [36:23 - 36:24]: Yep. 

Jim Dessicino [36:24 - 36:55]: And made a life here. And then made multiple generations of people in the United States. Like, there was a high level of repatriation to Italy. For some reason, my family decided to stay in New Jersey. But they could have very well have gone back to Italy at some point. But some people found, like, you know, they found a life in the United States I could never find back at home. 

Mike Ham [36:55 - 36:55]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [36:55 - 37:02]: And I think that's, you know, as much as I like my Whole life has been Italy centric since I was 20 and. 

Mike Ham [37:02 - 37:03]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [37:03 - 37:03]: 40. 

Mike Ham [37:03 - 37:03]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [37:03 - 37:10]: But now I'm here on Ellis Island. I'm getting this whole new appreciation of being from New Jersey. 

Mike Ham [37:10 - 37:10]: Yep. 

Jim Dessicino [37:10 - 37:12]: Like, I had Jersey pride growing up. 

Mike Ham [37:12 - 37:12]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [37:13 - 37:17]: But it was, like, over silly things like pork roll or Taylor ham. 

Mike Ham [37:17 - 37:18]: Yeah. Of course. 

Jim Dessicino [37:18 - 37:19]: I'm a pork roll guy. 

Mike Ham [37:19 - 37:19]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [37:21 - 37:28]: But now I'm learning to appreciate New Jersey with. With fresh eyes. 

Mike Ham [37:28 - 37:28]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [37:28 - 37:45]: And. And it's through Ellis island and the stories of other families that immigrated here that I've been able to appreciate what it means to, like, live in New Jersey. Like, we could have been in New York. We could have been in a tenement in New York. 

Mike Ham [37:45 - 37:45]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [37:45 - 37:49]: Instead we went to, like, Jersey and Atlantic City. 

Mike Ham [37:49 - 37:49]: Right. 

Jim Dessicino [37:49 - 38:01]: And we had, like, fresh ocean air. Yeah. And, like, my great grandma, my great grandparents planted peaches and, you know, had farms, and my cousin still has one of those farms. 

Mike Ham [38:01 - 38:02]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [38:02 - 38:15]: So that beautiful part of, like, you know, being from an Italian from South Jersey is now, like, my heart's, like, beating for that. That pride. 

Mike Ham [38:15 - 39:02]: Yeah. When I had a good question, but that answer really just threw me off. No, it's fine. It was a great answer. So when you're. We're talking about this place and, you know, the significance of it and all that kind of stuff. See, I'm trying to find that question as I just make some things up. Let's actually talk about. We talked about it, touched on it when we first started. But I do want to talk a little bit about the idea that this place is such a significant barometer. Oh, no. That's what I was gonna say. There we go. I'm gonna edit that whole bullshit out. One of the things that I think is really interesting and one of the things that I love about Jersey, like, you go around Jersey right now and, like, different downtowns or whatever, like, we're an old state. What about third? I think, third of the Nation? 

Jim Dessicino [39:02 - 39:03]: You're the New Jersey podcast. 

Mike Ham [39:03 - 40:24]: Yeah, I know. I don't know why I just answered that. It makes me look bad. So a third of the nation, we, you know, obviously, there's a lot of old towns. There's a lot of, you know, we're sitting in one. Yeah. And I think you look at New Jersey in different areas that are starting to kind of, like, get into the 21st century and almost kind of like, lose a little bit of that connection to the past, whether it's like, renovating a downtown or gentrifying different areas of the state, you know, and that's just like, that is life. And that just happens, you know, that is, like, the way the world works. Yeah. But I do think that there is. And this is something that I really believe in. Like, I look at a lot of the stuff that's happening, and, you know, money talks, and I get it. And there's, like, a lot of, you know, AI or technological initiatives or all that kind of stuff. Like, those things are. They're coming, and it's stupid to not be on the right side of that and make sure that you are staying up and being competitive with that kind of stuff. But I think there is a need to ensure that, like, all the stuff that makes the state special, such as this part of Ellis island, remains part of our ecosystem. Because if not, then what are we really? You know, I mean, you kind of, like, lose that connection to the past. You forget where you came from. And all those things that we're just. That we've been talking about for a while just kind of go by the wayside. So it's, like, important to really put the focus and the eyes on things like this. 

Jim Dessicino [40:24 - 40:26]: Yeah. I mean, we could talk about that. 

Mike Ham [40:26 - 40:27]: For days, I'm sure. 

Jim Dessicino [40:28 - 40:44]: Days and days about the importance of history and having roots and, you know, being connected to where you're from. Right. Because being from the United States, it's a young country. 

Mike Ham [40:44 - 40:45]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [40:45 - 41:11]: I mean, it's an old country compared to the modern nation states like in Europe, like Italy, 1870, Germany, 1871, and all that stuff. But those. They have long histories. Our history is a little bit shorter, but New Jersey's history is very long and very rich and culturally significant. I mean, like the phonograph. Just the phonograph alone. 

Mike Ham [41:11 - 41:12]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [41:12 - 41:55]: If that was the only thing that came out in New Jersey, the ability to communicate music and messages recorded, that's worth preserving. And I think that. Yeah. As we become a more digitally focused people. Right. The best thing that has come out of that, I think, is podcasting, because it gets long format discussions between people. Other people can engage and go, wow. I didn't know other people thought the way that I do. And so we have this technological innovation that's bringing more humanity to a less and less personal world. 

Mike Ham [41:55 - 41:56]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [41:56 - 42:17]: Like last week, there was a Pokemon Go event in Liberty State park. There were 30,000 people there, and not a single one of them was looking at another person. They all were looking down at. I don't know if people still use Game Boy or Nintendo Switch or whatever it was their phone. Everybody was looking down. 

Mike Ham [42:17 - 42:17]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [42:18 - 42:21]: And so you have 30,000 people gathered together, but they're not together. 

Mike Ham [42:23 - 42:28]: They're not even aware. Like, they look up and they could see the Statue of Liberty. They could see Ellis Island. They could see, you know, over here. 

Jim Dessicino [42:29 - 42:35]: But it's a little weird to me. You know, I played the original Pokemon. 

Mike Ham [42:35 - 42:37]: Me, too. I was a red version guy. 

Jim Dessicino [42:37 - 42:38]: Yeah, me too. 

Mike Ham [42:38 - 42:48]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Me and my friends, we had, like, a whole, you know, like the League of the League, you know, like the champions or whatever. And, like, at the very end of the game, you had to beat all, like, the bosses. 

Jim Dessicino [42:48 - 42:50]: I don't know if we had that. 

Mike Ham [42:50 - 43:02]: Well, you had to beat all the bosses at the end of the red version, and we, like, made that. But you could, like, link your game. Say we're getting off topic, but you can link your game boys with people, and we just have, like, Pokemon battles, like, all through lunch and whatever. 

Jim Dessicino [43:02 - 43:05]: But, yeah, I'm five years older than you. I don't know if that existed when. 

Mike Ham [43:05 - 43:16]: When I started that, the link cable was like. Like mega in, you know, the mid-90s. Because it was like, this is going to be it. This is how you play with friends. 

Jim Dessicino [43:16 - 43:16]: Right. 

Mike Ham [43:16 - 43:18]: But Ellis Island. 

Jim Dessicino [43:18 - 43:22]: Yeah. I mean, I think it's like a point of connectivity. Right? 

Mike Ham [43:22 - 43:22]: Yeah, right there. 

Jim Dessicino [43:22 - 43:26]: Is that the thing, like, what actually brings us together? 

Mike Ham [43:26 - 43:26]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [43:26 - 43:40]: And it's definitely not yelling at each other over headsets, playing a video game. Right. It's going and seeing things in person and experiencing things and being in communion with other people. 

Mike Ham [43:41 - 43:41]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [43:41 - 44:21]: And this is a site. Like, when I was in graduate school, we would talk about sites of memory in, like, architectural preservation, historic preservation, talk about sites of memory. And this is one of those sites of memory. Like, it's kind of locked in time. It's still decaying. And, like, memory is fallible like that. Right. It's. As you distance yourself from the event, the memory of it changes. But if you come here and you reinvigorate it with a visit, then you get a new memory, and that memory is fresh, and you take that back, and it reinvigorates how you feel about things you already thought you had a relationship to. 

Mike Ham [44:21 - 44:21]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [44:22 - 44:25]: But now you're seeing it with fresh eyes again. 

Mike Ham [44:25 - 44:25]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [44:25 - 44:59]: Right. So, like, I. If I had not made that exhibition about my family's immigration story, we wouldn't be sitting here today, today and being able to talk to people in whichever way, whether it's through sculpture and painting or through podcasting, but actually being with people, I think that's like, in this world where you're. Is it the next AI or whatever thing that's going to take all our jobs and make us obsolete. 

Mike Ham [44:59 - 45:00]: Right. 

Jim Dessicino [45:00 - 45:55]: Like, let's not think about that, because you can't stop the forces that are way stronger than you, and you can't stop money and greed and all the ills of society. Right. But what you can do is make those human connections stronger and make people realize that their history and their culture has meaning and that you're not just like nine numbers. Like that Bright Eyes song where he's like, we must memorize nine numbers and deny we have a soul. Yeah, right. No, you have a soul. You have purpose. You have a reason for living. And, like, these people also thought that there was a reason to welcome all these immigrants, and it wasn't just for cheap labor. Right, right. It wasn't just for cheap labor. It was like the idea that you could come to the United States, make something of yourself, start a Life here, and 12 million of those immigrants did. 

Mike Ham [45:55 - 45:56]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [45:56 - 45:59]: And we're. We're, you know, you and I are continuations of that story. 

Mike Ham [45:59 - 46:00]: Right. 

Jim Dessicino [46:00 - 46:08]: And even people who didn't come through here, like, if you like pizza, you're part of the Ellis island story. Right? 

Mike Ham [46:08 - 46:09]: Right. 

Jim Dessicino [46:09 - 46:13]: Yeah. If you like bagels. Yeah, you're part of the Ellis island story. 

Mike Ham [46:13 - 46:14]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [46:14 - 46:28]: And because you're. You're. You're eating that food, and when you're eating food and being with other people, you are participating in that cultural exchange that had that locus of focus here. 

Mike Ham [46:28 - 46:29]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [46:29 - 46:32]: Right. On Ellis Island. I think that's so important. 

Mike Ham [46:32 - 46:54]: Yeah, me too. And I think also this is what we mentioned before, but just the idea that between public health and immigration, like, are obviously things that have thrust themselves into our, you know, echelon of topics that we, you know, the zeitgeist of things that we talk about now and, like, issues, political issues, what have you. And we're not. Not going to go down that road. 

Jim Dessicino [46:54 - 46:58]: But, like, you want to talk about the reasons why I almost didn't want to take the job? It's those two reasons. 

Mike Ham [46:59 - 47:40]: But, you know, but then you look at how this is like a beacon of kind of just like, A, those issues will always be present, you know, and B, and, you know, disagreements on those issues and whatever you want to talk about with those. But then this is how people like you mentioned, like, the nurses and the doctors that were here and, like, the people that just, like, made it work, they were just like, fine, I'll do it. It's for the good of my community, the good of my country, the good of people really humanity. And then are here doing that job. And to me, just that story, if you're able to tell that now, all of a sudden you have a way to connect their past to this. 

Jim Dessicino [47:40 - 47:51]: I think the really cool story. And this is a New York story, not a New Jersey story, but Fiorello laguardia was a translator here at Ellis Island. 

Mike Ham [47:51 - 47:51]: Oh, wow. 

Jim Dessicino [47:51 - 47:54]: And he spoke multiple languages, like five languages. 

Mike Ham [47:54 - 47:54]: Wow. 

Jim Dessicino [47:54 - 47:59]: And so he helped so many people come into this country. 

Mike Ham [47:59 - 48:00]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [48:00 - 48:25]: And then he became mayor of New York City, like. And he was an immigrant himself. Yeah. What a cool story. Right. Like, let's. Let's raise up those stories. Those stories that, like, you know what? Give somebody a shot. Yeah, right. Give somebody a shot to make something of themselves. Great things can come of it. Terrible things can come of it too. 

Mike Ham [48:25 - 48:26]: Sure. 

Jim Dessicino [48:26 - 48:33]: But, like, let's have an open mind about what. What the possibilities are. 

Mike Ham [48:33 - 48:34]: Yeah, right. 

Jim Dessicino [48:35 - 48:36]: I don't want to, like, go. 

Mike Ham [48:36 - 48:36]: No, no, no. 

Jim Dessicino [48:36 - 48:37]: Into the rabbit hole. 

Mike Ham [48:37 - 48:38]: Yeah, yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [48:39 - 49:11]: But this place is important, even if we're only couching it as the historical time period of immigration and public health at Ellis Island, 1892-1954. Right. Even if we're only talking about that period, that's a period where the United States went from Republic to major power on the world stage. Everything happened in this spot. Yeah, everything. 

Mike Ham [49:11 - 49:44]: Yeah. I also. When people come here, which they should, when they come here and they're taking their tour and all that kind of stuff, and I'm sure they talk about it on this tour, but you mentioned how, like, we had a cross across from one building to another building to get into where we are now, which is this super secret location that we're in. And. But I think it was also interesting just talking about the way that it was flooded out there. Like, you had a. How'd you get from one side? How would one get from one side to another? Because it was for health reasons. But. 

Jim Dessicino [49:44 - 50:14]: So the islands were. Originally there was one island, then they built island two, and then they built island three as needed, because there was the general hospital. And then they needed to add a contagious disease hospital. And the hospital layout is in a pavilion style based off of Florence Nightingale's plan to separate patients by the type of disease they had so they wouldn't have cross contamination of diseases. You don't want somebody coming in with measles and leaving with measles and tuberculosis. 

Mike Ham [50:14 - 50:16]: Not a great health system. 

Jim Dessicino [50:16 - 50:58]: Right. So big windows, heat coming through all the time, fresh air and sunshine. The idea back then was like, have Lots of airflow, which is actually a really smart idea because if you hermetically seal your hospital in, your H. VAC system grows bacteria and viruses that only prey on humans. So fresh air is really important in a hospital. So Florence Nightingale and this hospital, pavilion style hospital, they knew something that we kind of forgot about. So that's worth looking into. Just. Just there. 

Mike Ham [50:58 - 50:58]: Sure. 

Jim Dessicino [50:59 - 51:02]: Gosh, I kind of lost my train of thought about. 

Mike Ham [51:03 - 51:11]: We were talking about, like, the separation of the buildings and how, like, so the. So where we were, that was island. 

Jim Dessicino [51:11 - 51:12]: Right. So there were two. 

Mike Ham [51:12 - 51:13]: Is that what. Is that correct? 

Jim Dessicino [51:13 - 51:39]: Island two. Yeah, we were on island two. And there's like a ferry slip. Okay, okay. And during the Roosevelt administration, they filled that ferry slip in and they made like kind of like a university quad style grass field. So people would have higher quality of life. So they wouldn't be trapped in the hospital. They could go out and get fresh air and sunshine and run and kick a ball around or listen to music. And they brought entertainers here in the 30s, 40s and 50s. 

Mike Ham [51:39 - 51:42]: Yeah. Which, like, who would even know that? 

Jim Dessicino [51:42 - 51:43]: Yeah. 

Mike Ham [51:43 - 51:52]: You know, like, they're bringing artists and entertainers here to entertain people in the hospital ward. That. Because I think, like. And I mentioned this to you when we were talking on the tour. Sorry to interrupt you. 

Jim Dessicino [51:52 - 51:53]: That's okay. 

Mike Ham [51:53 - 52:13]: But just like the idea. I remember, like. I don't know why I remember, like, remember in school learning about Ellis island and like, learning like, how hard the conditions were and all that kind of stuff. But then you. Then you. You're talking and even. Just like. I didn't even really think about that, like, when you said that this was a hospice room and just kind of like people that are at the end of their life having, like, the best view. Really? 

Jim Dessicino [52:13 - 52:15]: Yeah. You know, like, call it hospice back there. Sure. 

Mike Ham [52:15 - 52:34]: Like, whatever it was called, like, end of life. Yeah. But you have like the Statue of Liberty right there, which I'm hopeful that the camera can now because it's starting to clear up a little bit. You know, New York across the way. Like, it just. To me, it's like things you don't even really realize. But they. There was active steps being taken to make sure that there was a high quality of life for the people that were here. 

Jim Dessicino [52:34 - 52:51]: Absolutely. Yeah. High quality of care, high quality of life. Family visits once a week. Right. Some of the kids, like girls with favis, which was like a fungal infection of the head of the scalp. They could be there for an entire year. 

Mike Ham [52:51 - 52:51]: Oh, my God. 

Jim Dessicino [52:51 - 52:52]: Yeah. 

Mike Ham [52:52 - 52:52]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [52:52 - 53:07]: Could you imagine, you're in a room with, like, 10 other girls, and one could only speak Polish, one might only speak Russian, one might only speak Italian. At the beginning, when you're there, you can't even talk to each other. 

Mike Ham [53:07 - 53:07]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [53:07 - 53:18]: And the nurse can't talk to you. And they're putting pine SAP, like pine tar on your head and forcibly pulling out your hair follicles. 

Mike Ham [53:18 - 53:19]: Oh, my God. 

Jim Dessicino [53:19 - 53:25]: Yeah. Like, the kind of pain. And you're. You're like 6 years old and you're separated from your parents. 

Mike Ham [53:25 - 53:25]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [53:25 - 53:30]: Could you imagine? So, and then. And the nurses, they couldn't hug the kids. 

Mike Ham [53:30 - 53:30]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [53:31 - 53:48]: So that's, like, a brutal situation. But the nurses were very kind. And one of the letters that we have is of a person complaining about the laughter of children in the hospital. Right. 

Mike Ham [53:48 - 53:48]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [53:48 - 53:50]: So the kids were having a good time. 

Mike Ham [53:50 - 53:50]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [53:50 - 53:59]: Because there were a lot of kids here, and they separated the men on one floor and the women and children on another floor. Right. So. Which was good. 

Mike Ham [53:59 - 53:59]: Sure. 

Jim Dessicino [54:02 - 54:06]: So, I don't know. It makes me very emotional. 

Mike Ham [54:06 - 54:07]: Yeah. I can tell. 

Jim Dessicino [54:08 - 54:33]: Just thinking about, I have a niece that's in a hospital right now, and, like, she's under a lot of care, being constantly monitored. To think that, like, people give of their lives to serve others, like little kids with crazy diseases. Yeah. It makes me very. It makes me very emotional. 

Mike Ham [54:33 - 54:33]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [54:33 - 54:41]: My whole relationship with hospitals and hospital systems has changed dramatically since I started working here. 

Mike Ham [54:41 - 54:50]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really. Honestly, it's incredible. And this whole experience, even just kind of, like, taking, you know, the quick. 

Jim Dessicino [54:50 - 54:52]: Tour and you saw, like, 15 minutes. 

Mike Ham [54:52 - 55:41]: Yeah, you know, I got the abbreviated tour, but then even just to, like, just kind of, like, sit in this for a little while and just do, like, what I normally do. But like I said when we kind of kicked off the episode, and just easily, if not the most interesting, top three really, like, places that we've been for the last three and a half years. And I, like, I said before, like, 180 episodes going, this is like, this clearly stands out. And just, you know, like, I don't know, it's just one of those, like, aura things. Like, you're sitting it for, like, enough time because, you know, I could take a tour, I could do all that kind of stuff. And that's great. And like, you learn a lot about what you're doing, but just to kind of just like, live with it for a little bit, you know, is a lot different. And really, then hearing you talk about it and kind of your experiences and the history of it and what the mission is and everything. I think it's just. It's incredible. 

Jim Dessicino [55:41 - 55:53]: Right. I appreciate that. I'm sure all everyone at Save Ellis island appreciates that. Appreciates you coming here and giving us a little, you know, airtime for this feature. 

Mike Ham [55:53 - 55:54]: Totally. 

Jim Dessicino [55:54 - 56:01]: Because we can only tell the story to as many people who have ears to hear it. 

Mike Ham [56:01 - 56:02]: Right, right. 

Jim Dessicino [56:02 - 56:12]: And with each passing generation, it gets a little further and further from the original connection to the people who came through Ellis Island. 

Mike Ham [56:12 - 56:13]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [56:13 - 56:24]: And so these, like, stories about public health and about the arts here, it's a way to keep this story current. Right? 

Mike Ham [56:24 - 56:24]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [56:24 - 56:31]: And to make this place, to give it a second life or a third life or fourth life here. 

Mike Ham [56:32 - 56:32]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [56:32 - 56:37]: Now. And, you know, I. I encourage everybody to come. Come take a tour. 

Mike Ham [56:37 - 56:37]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [56:37 - 57:09]: Like, we do school programs, so if you're a teacher listening to this, like, consider coming to the south side of the Ellis Island. It's. It's a different experience for your social studies groups, like for your arts children, you know, any of those things. Like, if you're talking about immigration, you're talking about health, if you're talking about history and architecture in the classroom, this is a place to come visit. Yeah, it's a really good place to come visit. 

Mike Ham [57:09 - 57:10]: Absolutely. 

Jim Dessicino [57:10 - 57:18]: We do fantastic educational programs for kids from, you know, ages 10 into college. 

Mike Ham [57:18 - 57:28]: Yeah. So, which is a great segue into, if people want to learn more, where they can get involved, where they can support, whether they can book a tour. Where would you send them to go do that? 

Jim Dessicino [57:28 - 57:35]: Save ellis island.org and if you would like to become a volunteer tour guide, that's a possibility, too. 

Mike Ham [57:35 - 57:35]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [57:36 - 57:53]: And. And, you know, if you're an artist or poet or a writer or something, you want to get involved, just send us an email. Reach out on the website saveelisyland.org yeah. Yeah. And booking a tour. We do tours seven days a week. 

Mike Ham [57:53 - 57:54]: Awesome. 

Jim Dessicino [57:54 - 57:55]: We do six tours a day. Seven days a week. 

Mike Ham [57:55 - 57:56]: Wow. 

Jim Dessicino [57:56 - 57:56]: Yeah. 

Mike Ham [57:56 - 58:08]: That's great. Well, Jim, thank you for having me out here, and I appreciate the time and the stories and, you know, the. The tour, too. You did a great job, I think, on the tour. 

Jim Dessicino [58:08 - 58:08]: Thank you. 

Mike Ham [58:08 - 58:34]: You know, so make sure we put Savellis Island.org in the show notes. People just go, click it. You know, reach out if you have an idea of doing stuff. Because we work a lot of artists, particularly on, you know, musicians and all that on the. On the radio station side, you know, there's all kinds of possibilities. And I'm sure, like, we were talking before off mic about just kind of, you know, trying different things, you know, and just bringing awareness to what's going on here. And eyeballs. 

Jim Dessicino [58:34 - 59:01]: Yeah. Well, you know, we. We work at the, you know, we're a partner of the National Park Service. Right. This is overseen by the Department of the Interior. It's government surplus property. It's dilapidated. So the main thing is, like, public safety concern. Right. But as we raise money, we can make more of the buildings more stable. 

Mike Ham [59:01 - 59:02]: Yep. 

Jim Dessicino [59:02 - 59:04]: We might get some electricity. 

Mike Ham [59:04 - 59:04]: That's cool. 

Jim Dessicino [59:04 - 59:06]: Running water. Yeah, that would be great. 

Mike Ham [59:06 - 59:08]: Yeah. Since I got it. 

Jim Dessicino [59:08 - 59:14]: Yeah, me too. I'll show you where the bathroom is. At some point it might be in New York. 

Mike Ham [59:14 - 59:14]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [59:16 - 59:27]: But, yeah, it's. It's a great place. Like, please. Oh, this is so important for people in New Jersey. You don't have to go to New York City to get here. 

Mike Ham [59:27 - 59:28]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [59:28 - 59:46]: You go to the historic railroad terminal at Jersey City. You can pay like $5 to park instead of $50 to park and take the ferry over from Jersey City. It is a lot faster. You don't have to wait in, like, hour plus security line that you would have to do at Battery Park. 

Mike Ham [59:46 - 59:47]: Yeah. 

Jim Dessicino [59:47 - 59:52]: So I highly encourage, you know, people from New Jersey. You're in a car all the time anyway. 

Mike Ham [59:52 - 59:53]: That's right. 

Jim Dessicino [59:53 - 1:00:03]: Just park that car in Jersey City in Liberty State park, and then take the ferry over. It goes to Ellis island first before the Statue of Liberty. 

Mike Ham [1:00:03 - 1:00:04]: Awesome. 

Jim Dessicino [1:00:04 - 1:00:04]: Yeah. 

Mike Ham [1:00:05 - 1:00:38]: Yeah, that's great. So ellis. Save ellis island.org in the show notes. We'll put greetings for the gardenstate.com in the show notes as well, obviously, just so you can get all of our other episodes, because 2025 has been a big year of a lot of cool things. So, Jim, thank you again. Thank you, Mike. And thank you to everybody that helped facilitate, you know, this conversation that we just had. And this has been the greetings from the Garden State podcast, powered by the New Jersey lottery. We were here on the south side of Ellis Island Island 3 with Jim DeSesino from Save Ellis Island. Thank you for listening and we'll catch you next time. 

Jim Dessicino [1:00:49 - 1:01:15]: Oh, tell me before you go all the way, do you all sa.