{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.417,"endTime":3.545,"body":"The latest"},{"startTime":3.545,"endTime":6.84,"body":"edition of the Reimagining Mobility"},{"startTime":3.545,"endTime":6.84,"body":"Podcast series."},{"startTime":6.84,"endTime":8.883,"body":"I'm here with John Kassab."},{"startTime":8.883,"endTime":12.345,"body":"John is a technical expert in fuel cells."},{"startTime":13.054,"endTime":15.181,"body":"John, tell us a little bit."},{"startTime":15.223,"endTime":18.768,"body":"Fuel cells been coming"},{"startTime":15.223,"endTime":18.768,"body":"and going for the last I don't know."},{"startTime":18.768,"endTime":21.604,"body":"Some people tell me almost 50 years."},{"startTime":18.768,"endTime":21.604,"body":"I don't think it's quite that long."},{"startTime":21.646,"endTime":24.482,"body":"No, it's it's"},{"startTime":21.646,"endTime":24.482,"body":"fifth year. Okay. So there you go."},{"startTime":24.524,"endTime":28.153,"body":"So I'll say it's been a it's"},{"startTime":24.524,"endTime":28.153,"body":"been a long running joke for over 50 years"},{"startTime":28.153,"endTime":31.114,"body":"that fuel cells have only been"},{"startTime":28.153,"endTime":31.114,"body":"five years away from production."},{"startTime":32.157,"endTime":36.286,"body":"And what I can tell you"},{"startTime":32.157,"endTime":36.286,"body":"is that in the 17 years or"},{"startTime":36.286,"endTime":40.874,"body":"so that I've been working in the fuel cell"},{"startTime":36.286,"endTime":40.874,"body":"space, products are actually here now."},{"startTime":41.166,"endTime":43.001,"body":"So it's actually arrived, right?"},{"startTime":43.001,"endTime":46.212,"body":"You can actually go you can order"},{"startTime":43.001,"endTime":46.212,"body":"something on the fuel cell in it."},{"startTime":46.212,"endTime":48.631,"body":"It will show up in"},{"startTime":46.212,"endTime":48.631,"body":"a reasonable amount of time."},{"startTime":49.716,"endTime":50.675,"body":"So as someone who's been"},{"startTime":50.675,"endTime":54.22,"body":"working in this space as a consultant,"},{"startTime":50.675,"endTime":54.22,"body":"it's a very exciting time right now."},{"startTime":54.345,"endTime":55.18,"body":"Good, good."},{"startTime":55.18,"endTime":60.977,"body":"So it is is it now also to stay"},{"startTime":55.18,"endTime":60.977,"body":"you think, or is it we have something now,"},{"startTime":60.977,"endTime":64.23,"body":"but maybe it goes away again"},{"startTime":60.977,"endTime":64.23,"body":"before it really comes back full storm."},{"startTime":64.23,"endTime":66.691,"body":"I mean, we've EVs,"},{"startTime":64.23,"endTime":66.691,"body":"we've had that right over the years."},{"startTime":67.358,"endTime":68.568,"body":"What is your take on that?"},{"startTime":68.568,"endTime":72.363,"body":"I would say that it"},{"startTime":72.363,"endTime":74.783,"body":"feels like it's"},{"startTime":72.363,"endTime":74.783,"body":"definitely going to be part"},{"startTime":75.033,"endTime":78.036,"body":"and certainly in the vehicle space,"},{"startTime":75.033,"endTime":78.036,"body":"part of the light duty"},{"startTime":78.036,"endTime":81.414,"body":"and heavy duty world going forward."},{"startTime":81.79,"endTime":84.334,"body":"Fuel cells have certain advantages over"},{"startTime":84.793,"endTime":87.378,"body":"battery only vehicles for sure,"},{"startTime":87.378,"endTime":92.592,"body":"but they're that adds some complexity,"},{"startTime":87.378,"endTime":92.592,"body":"right, to have the fuel cell"},{"startTime":92.592,"endTime":95.595,"body":"system, to have the hydrogen"},{"startTime":92.592,"endTime":95.595,"body":"fueling system on a vehicle."},{"startTime":95.929,"endTime":98.807,"body":"So it may not be the right mix for all"},{"startTime":99.724,"endTime":101.768,"body":"light duty vehicles, for example,"},{"startTime":99.724,"endTime":101.768,"body":"going forward."},{"startTime":101.893,"endTime":103.144,"body":"You know."},{"startTime":103.144,"endTime":103.561,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":103.561,"endTime":105.814,"body":"So for us at all, it's"},{"startTime":103.561,"endTime":105.814,"body":"actually a very exciting time"},{"startTime":105.814,"endTime":111.277,"body":"because there lots of options"},{"startTime":105.814,"endTime":111.277,"body":"in play right now and there isn't yet"},{"startTime":111.277,"endTime":115.281,"body":"a convergence on a single best solution"},{"startTime":111.277,"endTime":115.281,"body":"than where there had been earlier,"},{"startTime":115.281,"endTime":117.992,"body":"a convergence on internal combustion"},{"startTime":115.281,"endTime":117.992,"body":"engines for example."},{"startTime":117.992,"endTime":118.993,"body":"And so it's a"},{"startTime":120.036,"endTime":122.497,"body":"it's a very unsettling time in some ways."},{"startTime":123.123,"endTime":125.583,"body":"But again,"},{"startTime":123.123,"endTime":125.583,"body":"as somebody who works in the space"},{"startTime":125.583,"endTime":128.378,"body":"as an engineer, I think it's great"},{"startTime":125.583,"endTime":128.378,"body":"that lots of stuff going on."},{"startTime":128.586,"endTime":132.715,"body":"Uncertainty always demands for a solution,"},{"startTime":128.586,"endTime":132.715,"body":"and that's what engineers are for."},{"startTime":133.216,"endTime":133.925,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":133.925,"endTime":139.013,"body":"So if you had to if you had to take, let's"},{"startTime":133.925,"endTime":139.013,"body":"say, the top three challenges we have,"},{"startTime":140.39,"endTime":142.642,"body":"let's"},{"startTime":140.39,"endTime":142.642,"body":"just put it this way, making fuel cells"},{"startTime":143.143,"endTime":147.188,"body":"on a cost parity with with diesel,"},{"startTime":143.143,"endTime":147.188,"body":"let's not go with vs, but with diesel."},{"startTime":147.23,"endTime":147.689,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":147.689,"endTime":149.065,"body":"What still has to happen?"},{"startTime":149.065,"endTime":151.442,"body":"Yeah, I would say"},{"startTime":151.693,"endTime":156.948,"body":"certainly one part of the picture"},{"startTime":151.693,"endTime":156.948,"body":"is that as production volumes increase."},{"startTime":156.948,"endTime":157.448,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":157.448,"endTime":160.201,"body":"That will help bring down"},{"startTime":157.448,"endTime":160.201,"body":"costs of the fuel cell systems"},{"startTime":160.66,"endTime":163.997,"body":"and all of the other"},{"startTime":163.997,"endTime":166.749,"body":"kind of vehicle level components,"},{"startTime":163.997,"endTime":166.749,"body":"both fuel cell"},{"startTime":166.749,"endTime":170.086,"body":"lives, leverage"},{"startTime":166.749,"endTime":170.086,"body":"a lot of the existing infrastructure."},{"startTime":170.128,"endTime":170.42,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":170.42,"endTime":171.963,"body":"So you still have,"},{"startTime":171.963,"endTime":175.925,"body":"you know, an axle or similar"},{"startTime":171.963,"endTime":175.925,"body":"electric machine for traction motors."},{"startTime":175.925,"endTime":178.595,"body":"You do still need some battery capacity."},{"startTime":179.053,"endTime":182.098,"body":"Obviously not as big a pack"},{"startTime":179.053,"endTime":182.098,"body":"as if it's battery only, but"},{"startTime":183.474,"endTime":187.437,"body":"they all have a battery pack on them."},{"startTime":187.437,"endTime":188.855,"body":"Similar power electronics."},{"startTime":188.855,"endTime":194.319,"body":"So so the fuel cell vehicle space"},{"startTime":188.855,"endTime":194.319,"body":"is certainly able to leverage"},{"startTime":194.319,"endTime":198.156,"body":"what's going on in the broader EV world."},{"startTime":198.156,"endTime":199.657,"body":"The second big challenge"},{"startTime":199.657,"endTime":202.911,"body":"really has to do with the on vehicle"},{"startTime":199.657,"endTime":202.911,"body":"hydrogen storage."},{"startTime":203.745,"endTime":207.248,"body":"So right now,"},{"startTime":203.745,"endTime":207.248,"body":"the best solution is nominally"},{"startTime":207.248,"endTime":209.292,"body":"700 bar pressure vessels"},{"startTime":210.251,"endTime":214.505,"body":"and there's been a move of the carbon"},{"startTime":210.251,"endTime":214.505,"body":"fiber composites."},{"startTime":214.881,"endTime":218.176,"body":"It's not really a technology"},{"startTime":214.881,"endTime":218.176,"body":"where the costs come down a lot"},{"startTime":218.176,"endTime":220.386,"body":"as the production volumes increase,"},{"startTime":218.176,"endTime":220.386,"body":"unfortunately."},{"startTime":221.429,"endTime":224.724,"body":"So I know"},{"startTime":221.429,"endTime":224.724,"body":"that's an area of active research"},{"startTime":224.766,"endTime":228.728,"body":"to try to find something"},{"startTime":224.766,"endTime":228.728,"body":"that has better energy storage density."},{"startTime":230.355,"endTime":233.816,"body":"And then the third is kind of the related"},{"startTime":230.355,"endTime":233.816,"body":"infrastructure question."},{"startTime":233.858,"endTime":235.902,"body":"You know, there's one part"},{"startTime":233.858,"endTime":235.902,"body":"where does the hydrogen come from?"},{"startTime":235.902,"endTime":238.196,"body":"How do we make sure that that's"},{"startTime":235.902,"endTime":238.196,"body":"a sustainable fuel"},{"startTime":238.988,"endTime":240.99,"body":"rather than having it"},{"startTime":238.988,"endTime":240.99,"body":"come from fossil fuels?"},{"startTime":240.99,"endTime":245.411,"body":"And then also, how can we make sure that"},{"startTime":240.99,"endTime":245.411,"body":"if you have a fuel cell vehicle,"},{"startTime":245.411,"endTime":247.33,"body":"you can actually go and refill it? Right."},{"startTime":247.33,"endTime":250.959,"body":"So here in Michigan, where we are,"},{"startTime":247.33,"endTime":250.959,"body":"there aren't fueling stations."},{"startTime":251.334,"endTime":255.63,"body":"So you would get like 300 miles"},{"startTime":251.334,"endTime":255.63,"body":"out of your Toyota Mirai and then you're"},{"startTime":255.63,"endTime":259.425,"body":"kind of stuck until you can,"},{"startTime":255.63,"endTime":259.425,"body":"you know, arrange for more fuel."},{"startTime":259.926,"endTime":263.221,"body":"But in California, you know, I know"},{"startTime":259.926,"endTime":263.221,"body":"we've been looking at our California"},{"startTime":263.221,"endTime":263.846,"body":"Tech Center."},{"startTime":263.846,"endTime":266.349,"body":"There are like three or four hydrogen"},{"startTime":263.846,"endTime":266.349,"body":"fueling stations"},{"startTime":266.891,"endTime":268.935,"body":"are close enough by the coast."},{"startTime":269.477,"endTime":272.397,"body":"You know, you could easily have a vehicle"},{"startTime":269.477,"endTime":272.397,"body":"there and not worry about it."},{"startTime":272.397,"endTime":275.066,"body":"Right, you see."},{"startTime":275.149,"endTime":277.652,"body":"Let's talk about stationary power"},{"startTime":275.149,"endTime":277.652,"body":"for a moment."},{"startTime":277.735,"endTime":278.403,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":278.861,"endTime":280.989,"body":"Do you see an advantage"},{"startTime":281.114,"endTime":286.077,"body":"for the fuel cell technology"},{"startTime":281.114,"endTime":286.077,"body":"for the medium and heavy duty truck space?"},{"startTime":286.119,"endTime":286.995,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"startTime":287.412,"endTime":292.0,"body":"Because volumes or adaptation or"},{"startTime":293.084,"endTime":295.753,"body":"necessary technologies,"},{"startTime":295.753,"endTime":298.006,"body":"etc., etc., can be shared between."},{"startTime":298.006,"endTime":302.093,"body":"Between the transportation space"},{"startTime":298.006,"endTime":302.093,"body":"and the stationary power space."},{"startTime":303.303,"endTime":304.637,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":304.762,"endTime":306.681,"body":"Or is it to separate?"},{"startTime":306.681,"endTime":307.724,"body":"And you can't really. Yeah."},{"startTime":307.724,"endTime":311.019,"body":"They need, you know, they need this stack,"},{"startTime":307.724,"endTime":311.019,"body":"they need hydrogen."},{"startTime":311.019,"endTime":314.022,"body":"But that's when it ends"},{"startTime":311.019,"endTime":314.022,"body":"and everything is off."},{"startTime":314.022,"endTime":315.398,"body":"I know. I'm just."},{"startTime":315.398,"endTime":315.648,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":315.648,"endTime":320.737,"body":"So for stationary power,"},{"startTime":315.648,"endTime":320.737,"body":"it's reliability and uptime."},{"startTime":321.237,"endTime":321.654,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":321.654,"endTime":324.699,"body":"Are the especially"},{"startTime":321.654,"endTime":324.699,"body":"if it's your primary source of power"},{"startTime":325.158,"endTime":327.493,"body":"and then you're effectively using the grid"},{"startTime":325.158,"endTime":327.493,"body":"as your backup."},{"startTime":328.578,"endTime":331.331,"body":"There have been systems for sale"},{"startTime":328.578,"endTime":331.331,"body":"for a while"},{"startTime":331.331,"endTime":338.254,"body":"that take that approach, but"},{"startTime":331.331,"endTime":338.254,"body":"it's more akin to like heavy duty vehicle"},{"startTime":338.254,"endTime":341.841,"body":"applications in terms of the number"},{"startTime":338.254,"endTime":341.841,"body":"of operating hours that are necessary."},{"startTime":341.841,"endTime":343.634,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":343.634,"endTime":348.014,"body":"So for trucks, we've been talking"},{"startTime":343.634,"endTime":348.014,"body":"like 30,000 our lifetime."},{"startTime":349.474,"endTime":353.227,"body":"I think for Marine and locomotive"},{"startTime":349.474,"endTime":353.227,"body":"applications, we're looking at 40"},{"startTime":353.227,"endTime":354.687,"body":"to 50000 hours."},{"startTime":354.687,"endTime":357.857,"body":"And that's really more"},{"startTime":354.687,"endTime":357.857,"body":"where I would want stationary power to be."},{"startTime":357.857,"endTime":358.399,"body":"You know, it's"},{"startTime":359.484,"endTime":363.196,"body":"8500 to 9, not quite 9000 hours a year"},{"startTime":359.484,"endTime":363.196,"body":"if it's round the clock."},{"startTime":363.237,"endTime":363.905,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":364.113,"endTime":366.24,"body":"And so if you want five years, that's"},{"startTime":366.866,"endTime":369.786,"body":"effectively 45000 hours operating life."},{"startTime":370.119,"endTime":373.539,"body":"So it needs to be that reliable."},{"startTime":373.539,"endTime":376.417,"body":"Now, for stationary systems, you know,"},{"startTime":373.539,"endTime":376.417,"body":"certainly people have been looking at"},{"startTime":377.71,"endTime":380.046,"body":"to leverage the advances there."},{"startTime":380.713,"endTime":383.257,"body":"But the there's"},{"startTime":383.257,"endTime":386.594,"body":"a high temperature"},{"startTime":383.257,"endTime":386.594,"body":"fuel cell technology called solid oxide."},{"startTime":387.011,"endTime":389.764,"body":"And one of the big advantage"},{"startTime":387.011,"endTime":389.764,"body":"of solid oxide systems"},{"startTime":389.764,"endTime":391.682,"body":"is that they're more fuel flexible."},{"startTime":391.682,"endTime":393.893,"body":"So you can start with"},{"startTime":391.682,"endTime":393.893,"body":"something like natural gas"},{"startTime":394.811,"endTime":397.271,"body":"because the oxygen comes across"},{"startTime":394.811,"endTime":397.271,"body":"to where the fuel is."},{"startTime":397.271,"endTime":400.733,"body":"So you can oxidize"},{"startTime":397.271,"endTime":400.733,"body":"carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide"},{"startTime":401.275,"endTime":404.57,"body":"in addition to hydrogen to water"},{"startTime":401.275,"endTime":404.57,"body":"and make energy out of that."},{"startTime":404.946,"endTime":408.574,"body":"And so when we're thinking"},{"startTime":404.946,"endTime":408.574,"body":"of stationary applications,"},{"startTime":408.574,"endTime":410.952,"body":"I would tend to think solid oxide systems"},{"startTime":408.574,"endTime":410.952,"body":"rather than."},{"startTime":411.619,"endTime":412.537,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":412.745,"endTime":415.623,"body":"But do you see PEM"},{"startTime":412.745,"endTime":415.623,"body":"more than on the transportation?"},{"startTime":415.623,"endTime":415.957,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":415.957,"endTime":419.794,"body":"Yeah, it's lower temperature,"},{"startTime":415.957,"endTime":419.794,"body":"it starts up faster and it"},{"startTime":420.67,"endTime":424.507,"body":"has a better profile"},{"startTime":420.67,"endTime":424.507,"body":"for mobile applications for sure."},{"startTime":425.007,"endTime":428.428,"body":"So for some of the applications"},{"startTime":425.007,"endTime":428.428,"body":"that I've I've talked to people"},{"startTime":428.428,"endTime":432.014,"body":"and they gave me this quite doomsday"},{"startTime":428.428,"endTime":432.014,"body":"scenario, but scenario"},{"startTime":432.014,"endTime":436.018,"body":"of the truck, is that a trucking stop?"},{"startTime":437.437,"endTime":439.48,"body":"He or she has"},{"startTime":439.48,"endTime":443.651,"body":"the fuel cell running because it's cold"},{"startTime":439.48,"endTime":443.651,"body":"and they want to they want to stay warm."},{"startTime":443.651,"endTime":446.112,"body":"So the engine the fuel cell"},{"startTime":443.651,"endTime":446.112,"body":"engine is running. Yep."},{"startTime":446.863,"endTime":449.24,"body":"Is generating water. Mm hmm."},{"startTime":449.24,"endTime":452.493,"body":"And in the morning, where he or"},{"startTime":449.24,"endTime":452.493,"body":"she wants to get out of the truck camp"},{"startTime":452.493,"endTime":455.371,"body":"because there's just ice everywhere. What?"},{"startTime":456.164,"endTime":456.622,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":456.622,"endTime":460.668,"body":"Reality"},{"startTime":456.622,"endTime":460.668,"body":"or just somebody making up something"},{"startTime":461.21,"endTime":463.671,"body":"or truth is somewhere in the middle. Yeah."},{"startTime":463.963,"endTime":465.256,"body":"I guess."},{"startTime":465.84,"endTime":468.676,"body":"I guess I haven't really thought"},{"startTime":465.84,"endTime":468.676,"body":"through that scenario."},{"startTime":469.051,"endTime":471.637,"body":"I know fuel cells"},{"startTime":469.051,"endTime":471.637,"body":"generate a lot of water. Right."},{"startTime":471.637,"endTime":474.098,"body":"That is the main"},{"startTime":474.098,"endTime":474.557,"body":"thing."},{"startTime":474.557,"endTime":475.6,"body":"And with"},{"startTime":477.393,"endTime":479.687,"body":"trucks, you wouldn't even necessarily"},{"startTime":479.687,"endTime":482.523,"body":"want to route the exhaust."},{"startTime":483.816,"endTime":485.318,"body":"Let me think about that again."},{"startTime":485.318,"endTime":488.779,"body":"So so with trucks especially,"},{"startTime":489.197,"endTime":491.782,"body":"you would need"},{"startTime":489.197,"endTime":491.782,"body":"a water traffic, the exhaust"},{"startTime":493.951,"endTime":495.077,"body":"to manage that."},{"startTime":495.077,"endTime":496.662,"body":"But yeah, I guess there is a risk"},{"startTime":496.662,"endTime":501.125,"body":"that you could end up with it"},{"startTime":496.662,"endTime":501.125,"body":"icing up under the truck."},{"startTime":502.084,"endTime":504.045,"body":"Yeah. I haven't really thought about that"},{"startTime":502.084,"endTime":504.045,"body":"before."},{"startTime":504.045,"endTime":506.464,"body":"Yeah. Yeah,"},{"startTime":504.045,"endTime":506.464,"body":"that was just an interesting comment."},{"startTime":506.506,"endTime":507.215,"body":"I'm like"},{"startTime":507.924,"endTime":512.595,"body":"and I mean, I know, I know a little bit"},{"startTime":507.924,"endTime":512.595,"body":"the has to be dangerous in fuel cells"},{"startTime":513.262,"endTime":514.597,"body":"and then I want to sort of buzz like yeah,"},{"startTime":514.597,"endTime":517.558,"body":"I mean, that truck is essentially"},{"startTime":514.597,"endTime":517.558,"body":"I mean, I've seen them addressed areas"},{"startTime":518.142,"endTime":520.978,"body":"they run, quote unquote, all night"},{"startTime":518.142,"endTime":520.978,"body":"because of the mandatory"},{"startTime":521.354,"endTime":524.815,"body":"rest time, whatever it is or but it runs."},{"startTime":524.815,"endTime":528.069,"body":"And again, if you're in a let's say,"},{"startTime":524.815,"endTime":528.069,"body":"Michigan in the winter and it's it's"},{"startTime":528.069,"endTime":529.445,"body":"cold, it's ten degrees."},{"startTime":529.445,"endTime":532.657,"body":"Yeah, that thing runs has to warm up"},{"startTime":529.445,"endTime":532.657,"body":"generates water."},{"startTime":533.115,"endTime":537.495,"body":"How is absolutely"},{"startTime":533.115,"endTime":537.495,"body":"and I think this gets to where"},{"startTime":537.787,"endTime":542.25,"body":"it would be a hybridized powertrain"},{"startTime":537.787,"endTime":542.25,"body":"so one thing you could do is"},{"startTime":542.75,"endTime":548.256,"body":"instead of running the fuel cell overnight"},{"startTime":542.75,"endTime":548.256,"body":"where you're using,"},{"startTime":548.798,"endTime":550.967,"body":"you know, like a 300 kilowatt power plant"},{"startTime":551.3,"endTime":554.72,"body":"to generate the ten"},{"startTime":551.3,"endTime":554.72,"body":"kilowatts of hotel load that are needed,"},{"startTime":555.304,"endTime":559.559,"body":"use the battery pack instead"},{"startTime":555.304,"endTime":559.559,"body":"to manage your overnight hotel loads."},{"startTime":559.559,"endTime":562.186,"body":"And so then you're"},{"startTime":559.559,"endTime":562.186,"body":"not generating all that water"},{"startTime":563.229,"endTime":564.605,"body":"for if the fuel"},{"startTime":564.605,"endTime":567.9,"body":"cell does need to spin up"},{"startTime":564.605,"endTime":567.9,"body":"to kind of charge"},{"startTime":567.9,"endTime":572.238,"body":"the batteries up overnight, it can do that"},{"startTime":567.9,"endTime":572.238,"body":"without like shaking the car."},{"startTime":572.28,"endTime":573.823,"body":"Brake fuel cells are very quiet."},{"startTime":573.823,"endTime":577.034,"body":"It's just compressor noise primarily."},{"startTime":577.034,"endTime":581.205,"body":"So it's a thing where it could start"},{"startTime":577.034,"endTime":581.205,"body":"and then go through its full freeze cycle."},{"startTime":581.205,"endTime":584.5,"body":"So it might not have to run overnight"},{"startTime":581.205,"endTime":584.5,"body":"and be generating"},{"startTime":584.5,"endTime":587.42,"body":"all that water"},{"startTime":584.5,"endTime":587.42,"body":"while the truck is just sitting okay."},{"startTime":587.587,"endTime":592.466,"body":"So that's probably how I would manage it"},{"startTime":587.587,"endTime":592.466,"body":"from a controller point of view."},{"startTime":592.508,"endTime":594.635,"body":"Yeah. Engineering on the fly right now."},{"startTime":594.885,"endTime":597.763,"body":"Yeah. MTI Special Good."},{"startTime":597.763,"endTime":601.475,"body":"If you look at cost here,"},{"startTime":597.763,"endTime":601.475,"body":"a lot of people say, hey, a fuel cell."},{"startTime":601.475,"endTime":603.853,"body":"No, we believe it's here."},{"startTime":603.853,"endTime":608.065,"body":"There are some application,"},{"startTime":603.853,"endTime":608.065,"body":"but boy, it's just so cost prohibitive."},{"startTime":608.107,"endTime":608.566,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":608.566,"endTime":613.446,"body":"And and it's just like another"},{"startTime":608.566,"endTime":613.446,"body":"almost like a hybrid vehicle, right,"},{"startTime":613.446,"endTime":618.784,"body":"between a battery electric system"},{"startTime":613.446,"endTime":618.784,"body":"and a diesel or gasoline engine system."},{"startTime":618.784,"endTime":620.786,"body":"So a traditional hybrid."},{"startTime":620.786,"endTime":622.204,"body":"It is a hybrid. True."},{"startTime":622.204,"endTime":624.582,"body":"It is probably more complex"},{"startTime":622.204,"endTime":624.582,"body":"than a pure bev."},{"startTime":625.333,"endTime":627.501,"body":"But what do you see from a cost parity?"},{"startTime":627.501,"endTime":629.17,"body":"Is it is it. Sure."},{"startTime":629.17,"endTime":631.297,"body":"There is right now a discrepancy, but"},{"startTime":632.298,"endTime":633.174,"body":"we see in"},{"startTime":633.174,"endTime":638.596,"body":"X years that this is a parody"},{"startTime":633.174,"endTime":638.596,"body":"and then, you know, how do you see it?"},{"startTime":638.596,"endTime":640.473,"body":"Yeah, for sure."},{"startTime":640.473,"endTime":644.852,"body":"I mean, I would say our internal"},{"startTime":640.473,"endTime":644.852,"body":"AVL analysis is that"},{"startTime":646.187,"endTime":649.065,"body":"the fuel cell"},{"startTime":646.187,"endTime":649.065,"body":"stack and system costs will come down"},{"startTime":649.315,"endTime":651.651,"body":"pretty significantly,"},{"startTime":649.315,"endTime":651.651,"body":"especially as the volumes increase."},{"startTime":652.151,"endTime":655.78,"body":"I would say that the Department of Energy"},{"startTime":655.78,"endTime":660.826,"body":"regularly funds cost, analyzes"},{"startTime":655.78,"endTime":660.826,"body":"and it's the same story."},{"startTime":661.869,"endTime":665.414,"body":"You know, there are certain fixed costs"},{"startTime":661.869,"endTime":665.414,"body":"with the materials"},{"startTime":665.414,"endTime":668.376,"body":"that are hard to get around,"},{"startTime":665.414,"endTime":668.376,"body":"you know, platinum costs, what it costs."},{"startTime":668.834,"endTime":671.462,"body":"And so the big challenge is, well,"},{"startTime":668.834,"endTime":671.462,"body":"how can I make my fuel"},{"startTime":671.462,"endTime":674.34,"body":"cell stack durable"},{"startTime":674.924,"endTime":678.469,"body":"over the life I want, maybe"},{"startTime":674.924,"endTime":678.469,"body":"with using less platinum at the beginning."},{"startTime":678.886,"endTime":681.013,"body":"So I still have the right end of life"},{"startTime":678.886,"endTime":681.013,"body":"performance. Right."},{"startTime":681.055,"endTime":681.806,"body":"And I know"},{"startTime":682.848,"endTime":686.227,"body":"GM, for example,"},{"startTime":682.848,"endTime":686.227,"body":"has been doing a lot of work in that area"},{"startTime":686.227,"endTime":691.315,"body":"to try to get the amount of platinum"},{"startTime":686.227,"endTime":691.315,"body":"I'd heard for their light duty system."},{"startTime":691.315,"endTime":693.317,"body":"Maybe comparable"},{"startTime":691.315,"endTime":693.317,"body":"to what's in a three way cab."},{"startTime":694.235,"endTime":697.238,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":697.238,"endTime":700.783,"body":"So in terms of first cost,"},{"startTime":697.238,"endTime":700.783,"body":"I think there is a pathway"},{"startTime":700.783,"endTime":704.412,"body":"to getting something that's comparable,"},{"startTime":700.783,"endTime":704.412,"body":"especially if you think of, say,"},{"startTime":705.121,"endTime":708.916,"body":"with heavy duty vehicles, the diesel"},{"startTime":705.121,"endTime":708.916,"body":"engine with all the aftertreatment"},{"startTime":708.916,"endTime":712.128,"body":"that's required, especially to meet"},{"startTime":708.916,"endTime":712.128,"body":"ultra low NOx requirements."},{"startTime":712.628,"endTime":714.463,"body":"Right. You"},{"startTime":714.588,"endTime":718.843,"body":"know, criteria, pollution, emissions"},{"startTime":714.588,"endTime":718.843,"body":"from a fuel cell, heavy powertrain."},{"startTime":718.843,"endTime":722.513,"body":"So you've simplified your life"},{"startTime":718.843,"endTime":722.513,"body":"tremendously."},{"startTime":722.555,"endTime":722.805,"body":"That's"},{"startTime":724.39,"endTime":727.101,"body":"the other part of the picture, though,"},{"startTime":724.39,"endTime":727.101,"body":"of course, is the fuel cost."},{"startTime":727.101,"endTime":730.604,"body":"And, you know, again, dear,"},{"startTime":727.101,"endTime":730.604,"body":"we have shown that there are pathways"},{"startTime":730.604,"endTime":734.442,"body":"to getting hydrogen fuel"},{"startTime":730.604,"endTime":734.442,"body":"at something in the 3"},{"startTime":734.442,"endTime":738.612,"body":"to $5 per kilogram, which is roughly"},{"startTime":734.442,"endTime":738.612,"body":"a gallon of gasoline equivalent range."},{"startTime":739.155,"endTime":742.032,"body":"But it's nowhere near that now."},{"startTime":742.032,"endTime":745.745,"body":"And I would say"},{"startTime":742.032,"endTime":745.745,"body":"that is going to continue to be a barrier"},{"startTime":747.58,"endTime":750.166,"body":"to adoption,"},{"startTime":750.166,"endTime":752.501,"body":"except in areas where it's"},{"startTime":752.501,"endTime":756.005,"body":"almost required"},{"startTime":752.501,"endTime":756.005,"body":"based on local emissions regs."},{"startTime":756.005,"endTime":757.423,"body":"And you see the barrier from a"},{"startTime":757.423,"endTime":761.469,"body":"from a fuel cost perspective,"},{"startTime":757.423,"endTime":761.469,"body":"the barrier is in infrastructure"},{"startTime":761.469,"endTime":763.846,"body":"and people willing to invest"},{"startTime":761.469,"endTime":763.846,"body":"in production."},{"startTime":763.846,"endTime":767.892,"body":"The government willing to incentivize it."},{"startTime":767.892,"endTime":768.809,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":768.809,"endTime":772.813,"body":"So I mean again,"},{"startTime":768.809,"endTime":772.813,"body":"certainly in the US Department of Energy"},{"startTime":772.813,"endTime":777.443,"body":"has been very good understanding that it's"},{"startTime":772.813,"endTime":777.443,"body":"a, you know, you have the vehicles"},{"startTime":777.443,"endTime":780.196,"body":"and the fueling infrastructure both"},{"startTime":777.443,"endTime":780.196,"body":"have to take the step forward together."},{"startTime":780.613,"endTime":782.823,"body":"And so there's certainly a place"},{"startTime":780.613,"endTime":782.823,"body":"for government incentives"},{"startTime":783.532,"endTime":785.951,"body":"to help that happen."},{"startTime":785.951,"endTime":790.164,"body":"I know in California, the California"},{"startTime":785.951,"endTime":790.164,"body":"Energy Commission had committed over $100"},{"startTime":790.164,"endTime":793.0,"body":"million to build out a network of hydrogen"},{"startTime":790.164,"endTime":793.0,"body":"fueling stations."},{"startTime":794.001,"endTime":797.671,"body":"So it's not every fueling station,"},{"startTime":794.001,"endTime":797.671,"body":"but it's no harder than if you had like"},{"startTime":797.671,"endTime":799.423,"body":"a light duty diesel vehicle. All right."},{"startTime":799.423,"endTime":801.884,"body":"You kind of have to know"},{"startTime":799.423,"endTime":801.884,"body":"where the stations are,"},{"startTime":801.884,"endTime":805.179,"body":"but you're never that far from one."},{"startTime":805.179,"endTime":809.767,"body":"So it's that kind of support from"},{"startTime":805.179,"endTime":809.767,"body":"a fueling infrastructure point of view."},{"startTime":811.602,"endTime":813.479,"body":"I think people know what the technology"},{"startTime":813.479,"endTime":817.316,"body":"is to get to sustainable"},{"startTime":813.479,"endTime":817.316,"body":"hydrogen production, right?"},{"startTime":817.316,"endTime":821.278,"body":"So using solar"},{"startTime":817.316,"endTime":821.278,"body":"or wind energy, using the electrolyzer"},{"startTime":821.278,"endTime":826.033,"body":"to make the hydrogen,"},{"startTime":821.278,"endTime":826.033,"body":"it's just expensive to compress hydrogen."},{"startTime":826.033,"endTime":827.493,"body":"It's a small molecule."},{"startTime":827.493,"endTime":832.665,"body":"It doesn't like to get squeezed down"},{"startTime":827.493,"endTime":832.665,"body":"to 700 bar for transport"},{"startTime":833.707,"endTime":835.876,"body":"and so that definitely adds to the costs."},{"startTime":835.876,"endTime":838.963,"body":"And it also has to do with"},{"startTime":835.876,"endTime":838.963,"body":"how much hydrogen are you dealing with?"},{"startTime":838.963,"endTime":839.588,"body":"I mean,"},{"startTime":840.756,"endTime":842.508,"body":"hydrogen is produced in large volumes"},{"startTime":842.508,"endTime":845.845,"body":"right now,"},{"startTime":842.508,"endTime":845.845,"body":"mostly from methane for use in refineries."},{"startTime":845.845,"endTime":849.014,"body":"And so there are places to say, like"},{"startTime":849.014,"endTime":852.142,"body":"near Rotterdam in the Netherlands,"},{"startTime":849.014,"endTime":852.142,"body":"in Houston, where there are hydrogen"},{"startTime":852.142,"endTime":855.813,"body":"pipeline networks,"},{"startTime":852.142,"endTime":855.813,"body":"because it's just it's used enough"},{"startTime":855.938,"endTime":860.317,"body":"regionally"},{"startTime":855.938,"endTime":860.317,"body":"where it's worth that investment."},{"startTime":860.317,"endTime":861.026,"body":"Does that mean that"},{"startTime":861.026,"endTime":864.905,"body":"there going to be hydrogen lines"},{"startTime":861.026,"endTime":864.905,"body":"to southeast Michigan or even to Chicago?"},{"startTime":864.905,"endTime":865.531,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":866.49,"endTime":869.159,"body":"If there are still. Be"},{"startTime":869.159,"endTime":872.121,"body":"some amount of local transport"},{"startTime":869.159,"endTime":872.121,"body":"that's required"},{"startTime":872.371,"endTime":875.708,"body":"that may add to the cost."},{"startTime":875.708,"endTime":879.253,"body":"Our strategy or a consulting organization"},{"startTime":875.708,"endTime":879.253,"body":"put a report together,"},{"startTime":879.253,"endTime":882.464,"body":"I think a year or two ago"},{"startTime":879.253,"endTime":882.464,"body":"talking about this cost parity"},{"startTime":882.464,"endTime":884.925,"body":"and what it takes"},{"startTime":882.464,"endTime":884.925,"body":"from a complete vehicle system. Right."},{"startTime":884.925,"endTime":888.679,"body":"So they looked at the cost of a vehicle,"},{"startTime":884.925,"endTime":888.679,"body":"the cost of the other components"},{"startTime":888.679,"endTime":892.391,"body":"of the technologies in it and the cost of"},{"startTime":888.679,"endTime":892.391,"body":"the fuel that you just mentioned."},{"startTime":892.975,"endTime":896.02,"body":"And I remember reading that"},{"startTime":892.975,"endTime":896.02,"body":"and walking away from the report"},{"startTime":896.02,"endTime":899.231,"body":"and thinking there's"},{"startTime":896.02,"endTime":899.231,"body":"a lot of assumptions in there,"},{"startTime":900.399,"endTime":902.318,"body":"which every report does."},{"startTime":902.318,"endTime":905.863,"body":"But at the end of the day, I felt like"},{"startTime":902.318,"endTime":905.863,"body":"there was a lot dependent on government"},{"startTime":905.863,"endTime":908.866,"body":"incentivizing it and for government"},{"startTime":908.866,"endTime":912.995,"body":"punishing with either additional costs"},{"startTime":908.866,"endTime":912.995,"body":"or taxes"},{"startTime":912.995,"endTime":917.374,"body":"or whatever on somebody"},{"startTime":912.995,"endTime":917.374,"body":"that continues to use diesel or gasoline."},{"startTime":917.416,"endTime":917.958,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":917.958,"endTime":922.129,"body":"Do you see that as as a as a prohibit"},{"startTime":917.958,"endTime":922.129,"body":"or in this country where we're less"},{"startTime":922.129,"endTime":927.426,"body":"maybe focused on punishing motor users,"},{"startTime":922.129,"endTime":927.426,"body":"at least more or less until till now."},{"startTime":927.426,"endTime":928.677,"body":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"startTime":928.677,"endTime":931.931,"body":"Versus Europe,"},{"startTime":928.677,"endTime":931.931,"body":"that is much more willing to to use that,"},{"startTime":932.139,"endTime":935.267,"body":"let's say that instrument"},{"startTime":932.139,"endTime":935.267,"body":"that they have right."},{"startTime":935.267,"endTime":938.228,"body":"Pushing people into a new direction,"},{"startTime":935.267,"endTime":938.228,"body":"into a new technology."},{"startTime":938.687,"endTime":940.522,"body":"I'm going to take that"},{"startTime":938.687,"endTime":940.522,"body":"in two parts. Right."},{"startTime":940.522,"endTime":944.652,"body":"So in the light duty market,"},{"startTime":940.522,"endTime":944.652,"body":"where in the US it's almost all gasoline"},{"startTime":944.652,"endTime":945.945,"body":"fueled vehicles right now."},{"startTime":945.945,"endTime":949.031,"body":"I mean, obviously"},{"startTime":945.945,"endTime":949.031,"body":"it is, but gasoline, fuel,"},{"startTime":950.24,"endTime":951.283,"body":"I think it may"},{"startTime":951.283,"endTime":954.036,"body":"be easier to create incentives"},{"startTime":955.204,"endTime":958.666,"body":"in the way"},{"startTime":955.204,"endTime":958.666,"body":"that California has started to do."},{"startTime":958.749,"endTime":959.166,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":959.166,"endTime":962.294,"body":"Looking ahead to their 2035"},{"startTime":959.166,"endTime":962.294,"body":"deadline, effectively,"},{"startTime":963.879,"endTime":966.924,"body":"and there are several other states"},{"startTime":963.879,"endTime":966.924,"body":"that have already announced"},{"startTime":966.924,"endTime":968.258,"body":"are going to follow California's lead."},{"startTime":968.258,"endTime":972.972,"body":"So that is going to create"},{"startTime":968.258,"endTime":972.972,"body":"a strong regulatory incentive"},{"startTime":974.223,"endTime":978.727,"body":"to to look at other options."},{"startTime":978.727,"endTime":981.313,"body":"And so and it feels like"},{"startTime":982.272,"endTime":986.318,"body":"there are enough other options"},{"startTime":982.272,"endTime":986.318,"body":"that are kind of ready to go"},{"startTime":986.902,"endTime":989.321,"body":"where that transition might be smoother."},{"startTime":989.488,"endTime":990.614,"body":"And then go."},{"startTime":990.614,"endTime":993.826,"body":"You know,"},{"startTime":993.826,"endTime":997.162,"body":"13 years is a long time"},{"startTime":993.826,"endTime":997.162,"body":"and not that long at all."},{"startTime":997.162,"endTime":1000.874,"body":"I mean, it's effectively two product"},{"startTime":997.162,"endTime":1000.874,"body":"cycles in the light duty business, right?"},{"startTime":1002.126,"endTime":1004.67,"body":"It's a challenge"},{"startTime":1002.126,"endTime":1004.67,"body":"as you start getting to heavy duty"},{"startTime":1004.67,"endTime":1007.798,"body":"is that diesel really makes the economy"},{"startTime":1004.67,"endTime":1007.798,"body":"go right now."},{"startTime":1008.465,"endTime":1011.176,"body":"And it's a very energy dense fuel."},{"startTime":1011.719,"endTime":1014.263,"body":"You know,"},{"startTime":1011.719,"endTime":1014.263,"body":"there's an existing network for it and"},{"startTime":1017.599,"endTime":1020.185,"body":"I think it's going to be slower to provide"},{"startTime":1020.185,"endTime":1023.48,"body":"that kind of incentive to transition"},{"startTime":1020.185,"endTime":1023.48,"body":"everyone over."},{"startTime":1024.815,"endTime":1027.776,"body":"But, you know,"},{"startTime":1024.815,"endTime":1027.776,"body":"I know people are thinking about it."},{"startTime":1027.776,"endTime":1028.027,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1028.027,"endTime":1030.029,"body":"I've seen at a conference earlier"},{"startTime":1028.027,"endTime":1030.029,"body":"this year"},{"startTime":1030.029,"endTime":1033.532,"body":"in marine applications,"},{"startTime":1030.029,"endTime":1033.532,"body":"people are beginning to look at,"},{"startTime":1034.116,"endTime":1038.704,"body":"you know, even leaving aside"},{"startTime":1034.116,"endTime":1038.704,"body":"transitioning from bunker fuel to diesel,"},{"startTime":1039.038,"endTime":1042.791,"body":"moving from diesel"},{"startTime":1039.038,"endTime":1042.791,"body":"to some other kind of combustion fuel"},{"startTime":1043.125,"endTime":1045.961,"body":"that would have a lower CO2 emissions. And"},{"startTime":1047.588,"endTime":1049.923,"body":"certainly in the trucking world,"},{"startTime":1047.588,"endTime":1049.923,"body":"there've been lots"},{"startTime":1049.923,"endTime":1052.051,"body":"of announcements and partnerships"},{"startTime":1053.135,"endTime":1055.804,"body":"announced over the last few years"},{"startTime":1053.135,"endTime":1055.804,"body":"to kind of"},{"startTime":1056.013,"endTime":1059.725,"body":"look at that transition as well."},{"startTime":1059.725,"endTime":1063.562,"body":"I'd say more so in Europe than here, but"},{"startTime":1059.725,"endTime":1063.562,"body":"there's been a lot of interest in hydrogen"},{"startTime":1063.562,"endTime":1066.857,"body":"fueled internal combustion engines,"},{"startTime":1063.562,"endTime":1066.857,"body":"especially for heavy duty applications."},{"startTime":1067.566,"endTime":1070.819,"body":"I see that as kind of a"},{"startTime":1067.566,"endTime":1070.819,"body":"transitional technology approach,"},{"startTime":1070.819,"endTime":1076.825,"body":"but it would help create demand"},{"startTime":1070.819,"endTime":1076.825,"body":"for the fueling infrastructure."},{"startTime":1076.825,"endTime":1079.203,"body":"So I think it's going to be slower."},{"startTime":1079.203,"endTime":1083.248,"body":"But also if people hang on"},{"startTime":1079.203,"endTime":1083.248,"body":"to commercial vehicles"},{"startTime":1083.248,"endTime":1088.087,"body":"and for a lot longer, like locomotives"},{"startTime":1083.248,"endTime":1088.087,"body":"have a 50 year life."},{"startTime":1088.087,"endTime":1089.797,"body":"Right. So"},{"startTime":1090.839,"endTime":1092.883,"body":"it's not even if"},{"startTime":1093.759,"endTime":1097.262,"body":"that, you know, 2035, it's a hard stop."},{"startTime":1097.262,"endTime":1100.39,"body":"They're going to be lots of diesel"},{"startTime":1097.262,"endTime":1100.39,"body":"locomotives on the rails"},{"startTime":1100.39,"endTime":1102.559,"body":"for decades to come. Right."},{"startTime":1104.103,"endTime":1108.148,"body":"But I think it's worth looking at,"},{"startTime":1104.103,"endTime":1108.148,"body":"you know, and I know CARB does this."},{"startTime":1108.148,"endTime":1109.525,"body":"I'm sure EPA does as well."},{"startTime":1109.525,"endTime":1111.36,"body":"Like, well,"},{"startTime":1109.525,"endTime":1111.36,"body":"what are the major contributors"},{"startTime":1111.36,"endTime":1114.279,"body":"and let's work on those and squeeze"},{"startTime":1111.36,"endTime":1114.279,"body":"those down first."},{"startTime":1114.488,"endTime":1115.322,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1115.322,"endTime":1117.116,"body":"And then we can"},{"startTime":1117.116,"endTime":1120.577,"body":"you know, when things like locomotives"},{"startTime":1117.116,"endTime":1120.577,"body":"start to become a large piece"},{"startTime":1120.577,"endTime":1124.498,"body":"of the carbon pie that we can,"},{"startTime":1120.577,"endTime":1124.498,"body":"you know, bring our attention to them."},{"startTime":1124.498,"endTime":1125.707,"body":"Right. Right."},{"startTime":1126.208,"endTime":1128.127,"body":"Okay. Last question."},{"startTime":1128.127,"endTime":1131.255,"body":"So you've been involved in fuel cells,"},{"startTime":1128.127,"endTime":1131.255,"body":"like you said, for many, many years. Yet"},{"startTime":1132.422,"endTime":1133.799,"body":"what's the most exciting thing?"},{"startTime":1133.799,"endTime":1137.344,"body":"You look forward to in five years"},{"startTime":1133.799,"endTime":1137.344,"body":"related to fuel cell technology?"},{"startTime":1137.344,"endTime":1138.053,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"startTime":1139.388,"endTime":1142.683,"body":"So I would say kind of the continued"},{"startTime":1143.976,"endTime":1146.854,"body":"development of fuel cell powertrains"},{"startTime":1146.854,"endTime":1150.816,"body":"and getting them integrated into vehicles"},{"startTime":1150.816,"endTime":1156.53,"body":"and really starting to get the technology"},{"startTime":1150.816,"endTime":1156.53,"body":"into real people's hands."},{"startTime":1156.613,"endTime":1161.368,"body":"So you can see it right."},{"startTime":1161.368,"endTime":1164.037,"body":"I'm just thinking of like the Ford F-150"},{"startTime":1161.368,"endTime":1164.037,"body":"lightning."},{"startTime":1164.037,"endTime":1166.582,"body":"They they literally cannot make them fast"},{"startTime":1164.037,"endTime":1166.582,"body":"enough."},{"startTime":1167.291,"endTime":1167.791,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1167.791,"endTime":1170.002,"body":"People are just very excited about them."},{"startTime":1170.002,"endTime":1173.463,"body":"And and I think Ford was been"},{"startTime":1173.463,"endTime":1178.051,"body":"very pleasantly surprised with the demand,"},{"startTime":1173.463,"endTime":1178.051,"body":"quite unpleasantly surprised"},{"startTime":1178.051,"endTime":1181.555,"body":"because they aren't"},{"startTime":1178.051,"endTime":1181.555,"body":"prepared to handle it right."},{"startTime":1181.555,"endTime":1184.474,"body":"And so I'm thinking that,"},{"startTime":1184.474,"endTime":1186.31,"body":"you know, there's just a lot"},{"startTime":1186.31,"endTime":1189.479,"body":"of potential advantages"},{"startTime":1186.31,"endTime":1189.479,"body":"of fuel cell vehicles."},{"startTime":1189.479,"endTime":1192.191,"body":"I mean, I'm just thinking, for example,"},{"startTime":1189.479,"endTime":1192.191,"body":"with transit busses, right."},{"startTime":1192.191,"endTime":1193.442,"body":"One of the issues is occasionally"},{"startTime":1193.442,"endTime":1196.695,"body":"busses have to idle at the end of the line"},{"startTime":1193.442,"endTime":1196.695,"body":"and they have a diesel engine in them."},{"startTime":1197.196,"endTime":1199.656,"body":"And so it's just kind of like"},{"startTime":1197.196,"endTime":1199.656,"body":"rattling their,"},{"startTime":1199.74,"endTime":1203.035,"body":"you know, for some minutes before"},{"startTime":1199.74,"endTime":1203.035,"body":"it turns around and does its return round."},{"startTime":1203.368,"endTime":1209.583,"body":"Like, well, fuel cell vehicles are silent"},{"startTime":1203.368,"endTime":1209.583,"body":"and are much quieter diesels right now."},{"startTime":1209.958,"endTime":1212.586,"body":"And you have this option of, well,"},{"startTime":1209.958,"endTime":1212.586,"body":"you could put it into a battery"},{"startTime":1212.586,"endTime":1216.215,"body":"only mode for a bit"},{"startTime":1212.586,"endTime":1216.215,"body":"if you didn't have a large power demand"},{"startTime":1216.215,"endTime":1218.592,"body":"from needing to run the"},{"startTime":1216.215,"endTime":1218.592,"body":"AC or something like that."},{"startTime":1219.718,"endTime":1220.052,"body":"And I"},{"startTime":1220.052,"endTime":1224.306,"body":"think for urban environments,"},{"startTime":1220.052,"endTime":1224.306,"body":"that is potentially a much friendlier"},{"startTime":1224.306,"endTime":1229.228,"body":"application just from a noise profile"},{"startTime":1224.306,"endTime":1229.228,"body":"point of view, even leaving aside,"},{"startTime":1229.519,"endTime":1232.898,"body":"you know, the benefits to criteria,"},{"startTime":1229.519,"endTime":1232.898,"body":"pollutant emissions and so forth."},{"startTime":1232.898,"endTime":1233.815,"body":"Yeah, okay."},{"startTime":1233.815,"endTime":1238.987,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":1233.815,"endTime":1238.987,"body":"that it it like I said at the beginning,"},{"startTime":1238.987,"endTime":1242.449,"body":"I'd say one of the really exciting things"},{"startTime":1238.987,"endTime":1242.449,"body":"is that, you know, the,"},{"startTime":1242.491,"endTime":1245.535,"body":"like the real products"},{"startTime":1242.491,"endTime":1245.535,"body":"and that we're really moving from"},{"startTime":1246.37,"endTime":1250.958,"body":"pre development into product"},{"startTime":1246.37,"endTime":1250.958,"body":"development type of activities."},{"startTime":1251.5,"endTime":1255.837,"body":"And so that puts it into a much more"},{"startTime":1251.5,"endTime":1255.837,"body":"exciting world from an engineering."},{"startTime":1255.837,"endTime":1257.547,"body":"Yeah, I can feel your excitement."},{"startTime":1257.547,"endTime":1258.465,"body":"Very good."},{"startTime":1258.465,"endTime":1260.133,"body":"Good. Thanks, John, for your time."},{"startTime":1260.133,"endTime":1262.135,"body":"Yeah, my pleasure."},{"startTime":1260.133,"endTime":1262.135,"body":"And thanks for tuning in."},{"startTime":1262.135,"endTime":1264.596,"body":"Thanks for listening"},{"startTime":1262.135,"endTime":1264.596,"body":"to Reimagine Mobility Podcast."},{"startTime":1264.596,"endTime":1267.224,"body":"If you'd like to episode,"},{"startTime":1264.596,"endTime":1267.224,"body":"please subscribe and tell a friend."}]}