{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":4.087,"endTime":4.754,"body":"Hello, everyone, and"},{"startTime":4.754,"endTime":7.716,"body":"welcome to our latest podcast,"},{"startTime":4.754,"endTime":7.716,"body":"Reimagining Mobility."},{"startTime":7.882,"endTime":10.635,"body":"I'm here with Chris Meszaros supervisor"},{"startTime":7.882,"endTime":10.635,"body":"for AVL."},{"startTime":11.386,"endTime":14.431,"body":"Chris, we want to talk a little bit"},{"startTime":11.386,"endTime":14.431,"body":"about batteries,"},{"startTime":14.431,"endTime":16.016,"body":"but clearly about thermal management."},{"startTime":16.016,"endTime":18.101,"body":"That's where your expertise comes in."},{"startTime":18.101,"endTime":21.187,"body":"Thermal management is a big topic,"},{"startTime":18.101,"endTime":21.187,"body":"I would say."},{"startTime":21.187,"endTime":21.73,"body":"Not necessarily."},{"startTime":21.73,"endTime":23.982,"body":"Everybody talks about"},{"startTime":21.73,"endTime":23.982,"body":"everybody talks about batteries,"},{"startTime":23.982,"endTime":26.443,"body":"everybody talks about inverters"},{"startTime":23.982,"endTime":26.443,"body":"and motors."},{"startTime":26.943,"endTime":29.446,"body":"But at the end of the day,"},{"startTime":26.943,"endTime":29.446,"body":"thermal management is what"},{"startTime":29.988,"endTime":32.574,"body":"allows a battery to perform"},{"startTime":32.574,"endTime":37.662,"body":"peaks, charging, discharge,"},{"startTime":32.574,"endTime":37.662,"body":"whatever it may be, and allows a battery"},{"startTime":37.662,"endTime":40.832,"body":"to do what it needs to do,"},{"startTime":37.662,"endTime":40.832,"body":"that we have a regular EV or"},{"startTime":40.832,"endTime":45.503,"body":"some of those EVs that go from"},{"startTime":40.832,"endTime":45.503,"body":"0 to 60 faster than maybe they should."},{"startTime":45.879,"endTime":48.715,"body":"So tell me a little bit about"},{"startTime":45.879,"endTime":48.715,"body":"what is thermal management"},{"startTime":48.715,"endTime":51.968,"body":"for those who may be think of it"},{"startTime":48.715,"endTime":51.968,"body":"from a traditional sense."},{"startTime":51.968,"endTime":54.262,"body":"What does thermal management"},{"startTime":51.968,"endTime":54.262,"body":"mean when it comes to batteries?"},{"startTime":54.304,"endTime":58.099,"body":"So it's similar to what we have"},{"startTime":54.304,"endTime":58.099,"body":"with conventional technology,"},{"startTime":58.099,"endTime":59.559,"body":"with the combustion engine."},{"startTime":59.559,"endTime":62.687,"body":"It's management of the heat,"},{"startTime":59.559,"endTime":62.687,"body":"particularly the cells themselves,"},{"startTime":63.354,"endTime":67.692,"body":"keeping the cells cool"},{"startTime":63.354,"endTime":67.692,"body":"and managing how that he is pulled away"},{"startTime":67.692,"endTime":71.946,"body":"from the battery itself and then dispersed"},{"startTime":67.692,"endTime":71.946,"body":"ultimately into the atmosphere."},{"startTime":71.946,"endTime":75.283,"body":"Is he rejected, just like"},{"startTime":71.946,"endTime":75.283,"body":"you would have on a normal conventional"},{"startTime":75.909,"endTime":78.119,"body":"vehicle?"},{"startTime":78.578,"endTime":81.039,"body":"We're talking constantly"},{"startTime":78.578,"endTime":81.039,"body":"about battery performance, right?"},{"startTime":81.039,"endTime":84.125,"body":"So clearly, thermal management"},{"startTime":81.039,"endTime":84.125,"body":"keeping those batteries in the right"},{"startTime":84.501,"endTime":87.212,"body":"temperature range is very critical."},{"startTime":87.212,"endTime":90.298,"body":"But then we also always talk about"},{"startTime":87.212,"endTime":90.298,"body":"we have to have lighter vehicles"},{"startTime":90.298,"endTime":92.425,"body":"because a lighter EV will go further."},{"startTime":92.884,"endTime":93.635,"body":"So how is that?"},{"startTime":93.635,"endTime":96.763,"body":"How do we"},{"startTime":93.635,"endTime":96.763,"body":"how do you balance the need for cooling"},{"startTime":96.763,"endTime":99.849,"body":"and the need for less weight"},{"startTime":96.763,"endTime":99.849,"body":"if you bring fluids in."},{"startTime":99.849,"endTime":104.02,"body":"And it is counter,"},{"startTime":99.849,"endTime":104.02,"body":"I want to say counterintuitive, but right,"},{"startTime":104.229,"endTime":108.817,"body":"right now with the industry, we're seeing"},{"startTime":104.229,"endTime":108.817,"body":"a lot of interest in immersion cooling"},{"startTime":109.692,"endTime":113.655,"body":"and that's which immersion"},{"startTime":109.692,"endTime":113.655,"body":"cooling is where the cells themselves"},{"startTime":114.072,"endTime":118.034,"body":"are actually submersed in a coolant,"},{"startTime":114.072,"endTime":118.034,"body":"a liquid coolant."},{"startTime":118.034,"endTime":120.912,"body":"So the physical coolant is in contact"},{"startTime":118.034,"endTime":120.912,"body":"with the outer"},{"startTime":121.204,"endTime":123.957,"body":"shell of the battery cell."},{"startTime":123.957,"endTime":126.376,"body":"But that's kind of counterintuitive"},{"startTime":123.957,"endTime":126.376,"body":"from a math standpoint,"},{"startTime":126.376,"endTime":129.879,"body":"because then you're adding all of that"},{"startTime":126.376,"endTime":129.879,"body":"fluid to the vehicle, which then in turn"},{"startTime":129.879,"endTime":133.842,"body":"you have a mass penalty"},{"startTime":129.879,"endTime":133.842,"body":"which ultimately impacts your range"},{"startTime":133.842,"endTime":135.802,"body":"and your overall performance"},{"startTime":133.842,"endTime":135.802,"body":"of the vehicle."},{"startTime":135.802,"endTime":137.929,"body":"So there is a balance."},{"startTime":137.929,"endTime":141.683,"body":"Most, as far as I know, everything"},{"startTime":137.929,"endTime":141.683,"body":"that's on the market today"},{"startTime":141.683,"endTime":143.476,"body":"does not use immersion technology."},{"startTime":143.476,"endTime":147.605,"body":"They use some form of non"},{"startTime":143.476,"endTime":147.605,"body":"direct contact cooling."},{"startTime":148.356,"endTime":151.401,"body":"In most of the cooling system,"},{"startTime":148.356,"endTime":151.401,"body":"capacities are significantly less."},{"startTime":151.401,"endTime":153.945,"body":"And that's part of the reason why,"},{"startTime":151.401,"endTime":153.945,"body":"because there's that tradeoff."},{"startTime":155.864,"endTime":156.406,"body":"When it comes"},{"startTime":156.406,"endTime":159.492,"body":"to simulation,"},{"startTime":156.406,"endTime":159.492,"body":"we always talk about simulation at AVL"},{"startTime":159.492,"endTime":161.744,"body":"because we really believe in it,"},{"startTime":159.492,"endTime":161.744,"body":"in the power of it."},{"startTime":161.744,"endTime":165.456,"body":"We've invested and"},{"startTime":161.744,"endTime":165.456,"body":"we've got our own products in that space."},{"startTime":165.748,"endTime":168.751,"body":"How much does simulation"},{"startTime":165.748,"endTime":168.751,"body":"play a role in your daily work?"},{"startTime":168.751,"endTime":170.17,"body":"Designing batteries?"},{"startTime":170.17,"endTime":172.714,"body":"It plays a big role."},{"startTime":172.714,"endTime":176.718,"body":"There's things as simple"},{"startTime":172.714,"endTime":176.718,"body":"as, let's say, a 1 to 2 day simulation"},{"startTime":176.718,"endTime":180.388,"body":"that we can do where where we're looking"},{"startTime":176.718,"endTime":180.388,"body":"at the flow restriction in the various"},{"startTime":180.388,"endTime":183.016,"body":"coolant past, where the cooling"},{"startTime":180.388,"endTime":183.016,"body":"is going to flow through the battery"},{"startTime":183.516,"endTime":187.061,"body":"all the way through a month long,"},{"startTime":183.516,"endTime":187.061,"body":"maybe longer"},{"startTime":187.061,"endTime":188.813,"body":"simulation,"},{"startTime":187.061,"endTime":188.813,"body":"where we're looking at what happens"},{"startTime":188.813,"endTime":190.148,"body":"when the battery goes into thermal"},{"startTime":190.148,"endTime":194.068,"body":"runaway, how that heat expelled"},{"startTime":190.148,"endTime":194.068,"body":"and how we ultimately prevent"},{"startTime":194.068,"endTime":197.864,"body":"that heat from from going down the line"},{"startTime":194.068,"endTime":197.864,"body":"and affecting adjacent cells."},{"startTime":198.823,"endTime":200.909,"body":"So there's a lot that we do there."},{"startTime":200.909,"endTime":204.037,"body":"And over the years,"},{"startTime":200.909,"endTime":204.037,"body":"if you look at it over the years and maybe"},{"startTime":204.12,"endTime":207.916,"body":"look at it 3 to 5 years out,"},{"startTime":207.916,"endTime":212.337,"body":"you still see lots of growth"},{"startTime":207.916,"endTime":212.337,"body":"of being more accurate"},{"startTime":212.337,"endTime":216.341,"body":"and more even more correlated"},{"startTime":212.337,"endTime":216.341,"body":"to real world when it comes to simulation."},{"startTime":216.341,"endTime":220.97,"body":"Or have we sort of reached a plateau"},{"startTime":216.341,"endTime":220.97,"body":"that we now need to wait for the next?"},{"startTime":221.179,"endTime":222.805,"body":"I think there'll be more accuracy."},{"startTime":222.805,"endTime":225.892,"body":"I think that it's challenging"},{"startTime":222.805,"endTime":225.892,"body":"because not so much"},{"startTime":225.892,"endTime":229.812,"body":"with the simplistic flow pressure"},{"startTime":225.892,"endTime":229.812,"body":"drop that sort of simulation."},{"startTime":229.812,"endTime":231.94,"body":"I think we're pretty accurate there."},{"startTime":231.94,"endTime":234.776,"body":"But when it comes to thermal runaway"},{"startTime":231.94,"endTime":234.776,"body":"and thermal propagation,"},{"startTime":234.776,"endTime":236.11,"body":"there's still a lot of correlation."},{"startTime":236.11,"endTime":238.446,"body":"I think, to be done"},{"startTime":236.11,"endTime":238.446,"body":"only because I don't know, though"},{"startTime":238.446,"endTime":242.533,"body":"there's a lot of capability for real world"},{"startTime":238.446,"endTime":242.533,"body":"testing and things like that."},{"startTime":243.409,"endTime":246.037,"body":"The simulations that we have done"},{"startTime":243.409,"endTime":246.037,"body":"have been pretty accurate."},{"startTime":246.037,"endTime":249.249,"body":"And when I say pretty accurate,"},{"startTime":246.037,"endTime":249.249,"body":"some of the testing"},{"startTime":249.249,"endTime":253.378,"body":"that we've done to correlate that,"},{"startTime":249.249,"endTime":253.378,"body":"I would say 90%."},{"startTime":253.419,"endTime":255.838,"body":"Right. But but there's also the"},{"startTime":257.799,"endTime":260.176,"body":"I don't know what word I'm looking for,"},{"startTime":257.799,"endTime":260.176,"body":"but but it's not"},{"startTime":260.468,"endTime":263.513,"body":"every time a battery goes into thermal"},{"startTime":260.468,"endTime":263.513,"body":"runaway, it's not a set"},{"startTime":263.513,"endTime":267.1,"body":"in stone"},{"startTime":263.513,"endTime":267.1,"body":"method or manner that it does that in."},{"startTime":267.1,"endTime":269.269,"body":"It's random, It's different every time."},{"startTime":269.269,"endTime":273.606,"body":"So until there's enough testing"},{"startTime":269.269,"endTime":273.606,"body":"to really understand and correlate"},{"startTime":273.606,"endTime":275.984,"body":"what happens every time"},{"startTime":273.606,"endTime":275.984,"body":"a cell goes into runaway,"},{"startTime":276.192,"endTime":279.487,"body":"there's obviously going to be some"},{"startTime":276.192,"endTime":279.487,"body":"accuracy that you're not going to have."},{"startTime":279.654,"endTime":280.238,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":280.488,"endTime":285.076,"body":"And then let's say you get to that level"},{"startTime":280.488,"endTime":285.076,"body":"of accuracy or confidence that, hey,"},{"startTime":285.076,"endTime":289.497,"body":"we've seen it quote unquote, all"},{"startTime":285.076,"endTime":289.497,"body":"which we never will, but to some degree is"},{"startTime":289.497,"endTime":292.959,"body":"then the next fear or the next challenge"},{"startTime":289.497,"endTime":292.959,"body":"will be, well, then we're done with"},{"startTime":293.501,"endTime":297.005,"body":"with with liquid batteries,"},{"startTime":293.501,"endTime":297.005,"body":"and then we go into solid state batteries"},{"startTime":297.005,"endTime":301.175,"body":"or different types of chemical composition"},{"startTime":297.005,"endTime":301.175,"body":"of batteries, which will then change,"},{"startTime":301.175,"endTime":305.138,"body":"obviously, the behavior again,"},{"startTime":301.175,"endTime":305.138,"body":"is it a constantly evolving field?"},{"startTime":305.138,"endTime":306.222,"body":"I think it will be."},{"startTime":306.222,"endTime":306.806,"body":"I think it will be."},{"startTime":306.806,"endTime":308.766,"body":"There's a lot of there's a lot of"},{"startTime":308.766,"endTime":312.729,"body":"engineering going on, a lot of research"},{"startTime":308.766,"endTime":312.729,"body":"going on for different types of batteries."},{"startTime":312.729,"endTime":313.313,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":313.438,"endTime":318.276,"body":"Solid state sodium, you know, so"},{"startTime":313.438,"endTime":318.276,"body":"I think it's going to continue to evolve."},{"startTime":319.277,"endTime":321.029,"body":"Is there such a thing as a I don't know."},{"startTime":321.029,"endTime":324.032,"body":"They call sometimes, you know,"},{"startTime":321.029,"endTime":324.032,"body":"the holy grail of batteries where you can"},{"startTime":324.032,"endTime":327.493,"body":"use your cooling fluid at the same time to"},{"startTime":327.744,"endTime":330.58,"body":"to extinguish a thermal runaway."},{"startTime":331.456,"endTime":333.124,"body":"So there's actually things like that."},{"startTime":333.124,"endTime":335.043,"body":"That part of the reason that immersion in"},{"startTime":335.043,"endTime":338.713,"body":"technology is being looked at"},{"startTime":335.043,"endTime":338.713,"body":"is because the idea is"},{"startTime":339.505,"endTime":343.134,"body":"the claim from some of the manufacturers"},{"startTime":339.505,"endTime":343.134,"body":"that produce some of these dielectric"},{"startTime":343.176,"endTime":347.847,"body":"that are used for immersion cooling"},{"startTime":343.176,"endTime":347.847,"body":"is that if a runaway happens, that the"},{"startTime":348.139,"endTime":352.977,"body":"the event is significantly less severe"},{"startTime":348.139,"endTime":352.977,"body":"because of the immersion fluid"},{"startTime":353.186,"endTime":357.19,"body":"and the ability of it to,"},{"startTime":353.186,"endTime":357.19,"body":"I don't want to say instantaneously cool,"},{"startTime":357.523,"endTime":360.818,"body":"but significantly cool the things that are"},{"startTime":357.523,"endTime":360.818,"body":"coming out of the cell, right?"},{"startTime":361.694,"endTime":363.821,"body":"So I guess by Holy Grail."},{"startTime":363.863,"endTime":364.864,"body":"Yeah, that's the Holy Grail."},{"startTime":364.864,"endTime":367.116,"body":"But the real Holy Grail will be to do that"},{"startTime":364.864,"endTime":367.116,"body":"with no mass, right?"},{"startTime":367.116,"endTime":368.993,"body":"Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":368.993,"endTime":371.412,"body":"Thanks for listening to Reimagine"},{"startTime":368.993,"endTime":371.412,"body":"Mobility podcast."},{"startTime":371.412,"endTime":374.04,"body":"If you'd like to episode,"},{"startTime":371.412,"endTime":374.04,"body":"please subscribe and tell a friend."}]}