{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":4.4,"endTime":5.36,"body":"Welcome, everyone, to the"},{"startTime":5.36,"endTime":8.64,"body":"latest podcast"},{"startTime":5.36,"endTime":8.64,"body":"edition of Reimagining Mobility."},{"startTime":8.64,"endTime":13.12,"body":"I'm here with Jose Rubio"},{"startTime":8.64,"endTime":13.12,"body":"from our Fuel Cell Canada organization."},{"startTime":13.72,"endTime":15.84,"body":"Welcome, Jose,"},{"startTime":13.72,"endTime":15.84,"body":"and thank you for joining me today."},{"startTime":16.72,"endTime":17.8,"body":"Tell me a little bit."},{"startTime":17.8,"endTime":20.92,"body":"What are you guys doing in Canada?"},{"startTime":20.92,"endTime":23.36,"body":"Yeah, we're we're a team of"},{"startTime":23.36,"endTime":26.8,"body":"about 50 people, 80, 90%."},{"startTime":26.8,"endTime":30.2,"body":"And engineers and scientists"},{"startTime":26.8,"endTime":30.2,"body":"based in Vancouver,"},{"startTime":30.56,"endTime":33.36,"body":"BC, Canada, which is a global hub"},{"startTime":33.36,"endTime":36.84,"body":"for PEM fuel cell design."},{"startTime":36.88,"endTime":39.24,"body":"So we do exactly that. We designed"},{"startTime":40.4,"endTime":42.84,"body":"fuel cell stacks for AVL"},{"startTime":42.84,"endTime":45.44,"body":"and AVL customer worldwide."},{"startTime":46.76,"endTime":47.64,"body":"Very good."},{"startTime":47.64,"endTime":48.8,"body":"And tell me why."},{"startTime":48.8,"endTime":51.12,"body":"PEM why not SOFC ?"},{"startTime":51.12,"endTime":53.28,"body":"So I hear the battle constantly, right?"},{"startTime":53.96,"endTime":56.24,"body":"SOFC Yeah, I know he does."},{"startTime":56.24,"endTime":58.12,"body":"There is an issue about, Hey,PEM"},{"startTime":58.12,"endTime":62.0,"body":"I can put a whole lot more different"},{"startTime":58.12,"endTime":62.0,"body":"fuels in it and, you know, limited."},{"startTime":62.24,"endTime":68.0,"body":"So why did we choose PEM as the solution,"},{"startTime":68.0,"endTime":71.28,"body":"so to speak,"},{"startTime":68.0,"endTime":71.28,"body":"or to technology for our fuel cell stacks?"},{"startTime":71.84,"endTime":72.04,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":72.04,"endTime":76.08,"body":"First, I think probably the biggest"},{"startTime":72.04,"endTime":76.08,"body":"the biggest point is PEM"},{"startTime":76.6,"endTime":80.52,"body":"is completely"},{"startTime":76.6,"endTime":80.52,"body":"green can run off renewable hydrogen."},{"startTime":80.52,"endTime":83.56,"body":"So there's zero carbon"},{"startTime":80.52,"endTime":83.56,"body":"in any of the process."},{"startTime":83.56,"endTime":85.44,"body":"Now for sure, it depends on"},{"startTime":85.44,"endTime":88.32,"body":"where you get the hydrogen from,"},{"startTime":85.44,"endTime":88.32,"body":"but that's where we're talking"},{"startTime":89.24,"endTime":92.12,"body":"about the hydrogen infrastructure,"},{"startTime":92.16,"endTime":94.96,"body":"the landscape that's developing"},{"startTime":92.16,"endTime":94.96,"body":"to make sure we have that"},{"startTime":96.0,"endTime":99.44,"body":"that fully green fuel coming in."},{"startTime":99.48,"endTime":102.92,"body":"So PEM"},{"startTime":99.48,"endTime":102.92,"body":"fuel cells run exclusively on hydrogen,"},{"startTime":104.12,"endTime":108.44,"body":"And in our case, we, of course,"},{"startTime":104.12,"endTime":108.44,"body":"turn that hydrogen into electricity,"},{"startTime":108.44,"endTime":111.92,"body":"heat and water, which are the main"},{"startTime":108.44,"endTime":111.92,"body":"byproducts of a fuel cell stack"},{"startTime":112.56,"endTime":115.04,"body":"compared to a SOFC system."},{"startTime":115.72,"endTime":119.56,"body":"The benefit the main benefit of PEM"},{"startTime":115.72,"endTime":119.56,"body":"is that it won't runs at low temperature"},{"startTime":120.68,"endTime":125.52,"body":"and it is very fast to start up and shut"},{"startTime":120.68,"endTime":125.52,"body":"down, whereas a SOFC system"},{"startTime":125.52,"endTime":129.76,"body":"because it needs an associate C system"},{"startTime":125.52,"endTime":129.76,"body":"because it needs a large warm up time."},{"startTime":130.16,"endTime":132.6,"body":"Those tend to be more"},{"startTime":132.96,"endTime":137.68,"body":"amenable to like large installations"},{"startTime":138.12,"endTime":141.84,"body":"for steady state requirements,"},{"startTime":138.12,"endTime":141.84,"body":"whereas a system can be very dynamic."},{"startTime":141.88,"endTime":145.16,"body":"But really,"},{"startTime":141.88,"endTime":145.16,"body":"so those are the two big things it runs on"},{"startTime":145.2,"endTime":148.64,"body":"completely fuel hydrogen only and,"},{"startTime":149.0,"endTime":153.52,"body":"and the temperature requirements"},{"startTime":149.0,"endTime":153.52,"body":"that make one have to start up"},{"startTime":154.12,"endTime":156.52,"body":"and it takes time to get running fully,"},{"startTime":154.12,"endTime":156.52,"body":"whereas a"},{"startTime":156.8,"endTime":160.68,"body":"can come up to speed almost instantly."},{"startTime":160.8,"endTime":163.04,"body":"Really? Within a few seconds."},{"startTime":163.04,"endTime":164.36,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"startTime":164.36,"endTime":168.64,"body":"So really then a kind of SOFC probably"},{"startTime":164.36,"endTime":168.64,"body":"a great application maybe for a stationary"},{"startTime":168.64,"endTime":172.2,"body":"power system, but once it's running, it's"},{"startTime":168.64,"endTime":172.2,"body":"running for whatever,"},{"startTime":172.48,"endTime":177.44,"body":"seven, 8 hours until the power's back"},{"startTime":172.48,"endTime":177.44,"body":"versus the dependent is more for,"},{"startTime":177.64,"endTime":181.52,"body":"let's say, mobility applications,"},{"startTime":177.64,"endTime":181.52,"body":"where the power demands vary consistently"},{"startTime":181.52,"endTime":185.16,"body":"depending on your driving"},{"startTime":181.52,"endTime":185.16,"body":"or maneuver cycle or whatever."},{"startTime":185.4,"endTime":185.84,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":185.84,"endTime":189.24,"body":"And and the power"},{"startTime":185.84,"endTime":189.24,"body":"demand is quick as well. Yep."},{"startTime":190.04,"endTime":194.12,"body":"So, yeah,"},{"startTime":190.04,"endTime":194.12,"body":"we're seeing quite a lot of movement"},{"startTime":194.12,"endTime":196.44,"body":"in the marine space,"},{"startTime":197.12,"endTime":199.56,"body":"the long haul truck space."},{"startTime":200.48,"endTime":201.32,"body":"I can"},{"startTime":201.32,"endTime":204.56,"body":"imagine that'll expand to"},{"startTime":201.32,"endTime":204.56,"body":"to some stationary as well."},{"startTime":205.08,"endTime":206.4,"body":"And there is already."},{"startTime":206.4,"endTime":209.0,"body":"But, but in our case, that's where we see"},{"startTime":206.4,"endTime":209.0,"body":"the biggest areas"},{"startTime":209.04,"endTime":212.32,"body":"being in large commercial trucks. And."},{"startTime":212.44,"endTime":216.68,"body":"I've read over the last couple"},{"startTime":212.44,"endTime":216.68,"body":"along several times about drones"},{"startTime":216.68,"endTime":220.84,"body":"that they're talking about in fuel cell"},{"startTime":216.68,"endTime":220.84,"body":"and not just drones, meaning people."},{"startTime":220.84,"endTime":224.92,"body":"So air taxis or whatever"},{"startTime":220.84,"endTime":224.92,"body":"you want to call it, air mobility drones,"},{"startTime":224.92,"endTime":227.52,"body":"but also for smaller ones."},{"startTime":224.92,"endTime":227.52,"body":"So for packages."},{"startTime":227.52,"endTime":230.52,"body":"Any any experience or opinion on that"},{"startTime":227.52,"endTime":230.52,"body":"and on that area?"},{"startTime":231.72,"endTime":233.6,"body":"Yeah, actually,"},{"startTime":233.6,"endTime":238.44,"body":"we've been working on on"},{"startTime":233.6,"endTime":238.44,"body":"some of those that you're mentioning."},{"startTime":238.44,"endTime":241.28,"body":"Actually the which"},{"startTime":241.56,"endTime":244.52,"body":"it's a slightly different"},{"startTime":241.56,"endTime":244.52,"body":"than an automotive stock."},{"startTime":244.6,"endTime":248.52,"body":"Primarily the biggest automotive"},{"startTime":244.6,"endTime":248.52,"body":"marine stock."},{"startTime":249.0,"endTime":252.48,"body":"The primary difference"},{"startTime":249.0,"endTime":252.48,"body":"between those is most PEM stocks"},{"startTime":253.88,"endTime":255.44,"body":"that require really high powered"},{"startTime":255.44,"endTime":258.64,"body":"demand are liquid cooled"},{"startTime":255.44,"endTime":258.64,"body":"because they generate"},{"startTime":258.64,"endTime":260.48,"body":"them by liquid"},{"startTime":260.72,"endTime":262.96,"body":"in a drone or"},{"startTime":262.96,"endTime":265.64,"body":"aerospace application"},{"startTime":262.96,"endTime":265.64,"body":"weight is more critical."},{"startTime":266.04,"endTime":268.32,"body":"All that size liquid is heavy."},{"startTime":268.6,"endTime":272.36,"body":"So those stacks tend to be lower"},{"startTime":268.6,"endTime":272.36,"body":"power density, but"},{"startTime":272.36,"endTime":276.48,"body":"running on air cooled, which eliminates"},{"startTime":272.36,"endTime":276.48,"body":"a more complex system as well."},{"startTime":276.48,"endTime":280.2,"body":"So it can be there's"},{"startTime":276.48,"endTime":280.2,"body":"certainly some some benefit to that."},{"startTime":280.2,"endTime":282.56,"body":"And you can imagine,"},{"startTime":280.2,"endTime":282.56,"body":"I mean, there's been a lot of discussion"},{"startTime":284.16,"endTime":286.6,"body":"in like pollution generated"},{"startTime":286.6,"endTime":290.04,"body":"from aerospace"},{"startTime":286.6,"endTime":290.04,"body":"like airplanes and aerospace output."},{"startTime":290.4,"endTime":294.24,"body":"So there is a move within that industry"},{"startTime":290.4,"endTime":294.24,"body":"as well to explore"},{"startTime":294.64,"endTime":298.56,"body":"running like PEM fuel cell stacks."},{"startTime":299.48,"endTime":302.36,"body":"We were just at CES"},{"startTime":299.48,"endTime":302.36,"body":"and we highlighted one of our"},{"startTime":302.36,"endTime":306.8,"body":"from your team's fuel cell stacks"},{"startTime":302.36,"endTime":306.8,"body":"and got a lot of attention, quite frankly."},{"startTime":306.8,"endTime":309.96,"body":"Lots of people,"},{"startTime":306.8,"endTime":309.96,"body":"I think, on one side interested"},{"startTime":309.96,"endTime":311.96,"body":"what in the world"},{"startTime":309.96,"endTime":311.96,"body":"is this box on the other side?"},{"startTime":311.96,"endTime":315.12,"body":"Oh, my gosh,"},{"startTime":311.96,"endTime":315.12,"body":"I had no idea you AVL were doing this."},{"startTime":315.96,"endTime":318.0,"body":"We've been doing this"},{"startTime":315.96,"endTime":318.0,"body":"for years, obviously."},{"startTime":318.2,"endTime":318.84,"body":"And this is now,"},{"startTime":318.84,"endTime":322.16,"body":"I believe, what the second generation"},{"startTime":318.84,"endTime":322.16,"body":"that we showcase, their third generation"},{"startTime":322.8,"endTime":323.44,"body":"we've done."},{"startTime":323.44,"endTime":326.52,"body":"And at the moment we've done really like"},{"startTime":326.68,"endTime":330.92,"body":"three full stack designs"},{"startTime":326.68,"endTime":330.92,"body":"since we came here was showcase."},{"startTime":330.92,"endTime":333.16,"body":"There was the first one that we developed."},{"startTime":333.52,"endTime":336.8,"body":"However, that's currently"},{"startTime":333.52,"endTime":336.8,"body":"the one that's available on the market"},{"startTime":337.24,"endTime":342.48,"body":"that we're working on on main projects,"},{"startTime":337.24,"endTime":342.48,"body":"but we're already advanced"},{"startTime":342.48,"endTime":348.4,"body":"at another level and started work on"},{"startTime":342.48,"endTime":348.4,"body":"an a next, more power dense application."},{"startTime":348.4,"endTime":352.16,"body":"Although the one that that you showcased"},{"startTime":348.4,"endTime":352.16,"body":"is really already"},{"startTime":352.16,"endTime":355.36,"body":"one of the top power"},{"startTime":352.16,"endTime":355.36,"body":"density stocks that you can get."},{"startTime":355.84,"endTime":356.4,"body":"All right. So"},{"startTime":357.48,"endTime":358.68,"body":"so we've done"},{"startTime":358.68,"endTime":362.28,"body":"I mean, the team's progressed"},{"startTime":358.68,"endTime":362.28,"body":"in five years, three stock designs."},{"startTime":362.28,"endTime":366.36,"body":"That's pretty rare that you'll see"},{"startTime":362.28,"endTime":366.36,"body":"in other fuel cell companies."},{"startTime":366.36,"endTime":370.96,"body":"The benefit the reason we can do"},{"startTime":366.36,"endTime":370.96,"body":"that is we work with all the suppliers."},{"startTime":370.96,"endTime":375.12,"body":"We work primarily to the a sample phase,"},{"startTime":370.96,"endTime":375.12,"body":"although we do have some SOP projects,"},{"startTime":375.36,"endTime":379.2,"body":"but that allows us to turn over"},{"startTime":375.36,"endTime":379.2,"body":"an advanced designs much more quickly"},{"startTime":379.2,"endTime":382.8,"body":"than you'll see in other fuel"},{"startTime":379.2,"endTime":382.8,"body":"cell companies out there."},{"startTime":383.32,"endTime":384.56,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":384.84,"endTime":387.76,"body":"Tell me a little bit of what"},{"startTime":384.84,"endTime":387.76,"body":"what some of the whatever"},{"startTime":387.76,"endTime":392.0,"body":"watt per liter guides"},{"startTime":387.76,"endTime":392.0,"body":"that you're trying to achieve."},{"startTime":392.0,"endTime":396.6,"body":"What's the current,"},{"startTime":392.0,"endTime":396.6,"body":"let's say, on the market leading edge?"},{"startTime":396.96,"endTime":398.08,"body":"Where are we at?"},{"startTime":398.08,"endTime":402.04,"body":"Where do you see we can get to"},{"startTime":398.08,"endTime":402.04,"body":"in the next, let's say, five years"},{"startTime":402.04,"endTime":403.4,"body":"based on what you know today"},{"startTime":403.4,"endTime":407.48,"body":"from the let's call it technology"},{"startTime":403.4,"endTime":407.48,"body":"roadmap or ability of where we know"},{"startTime":407.48,"endTime":412.36,"body":"we can shave off additional inefficiencies"},{"startTime":407.48,"endTime":412.36,"body":"to get more efficient?"},{"startTime":412.96,"endTime":414.24,"body":"For sure."},{"startTime":414.52,"endTime":418.04,"body":"Maybe just to tie back to the aerospace"},{"startTime":414.52,"endTime":418.04,"body":"then and I'll bring it back to"},{"startTime":419.4,"endTime":420.96,"body":"on air cooled stocks."},{"startTime":420.96,"endTime":423.16,"body":"For air cooled stocks, we see the market"},{"startTime":424.32,"endTime":427.64,"body":"kind of the top end is around"},{"startTime":424.32,"endTime":427.64,"body":"half a kilowatt per liter."},{"startTime":428.0,"endTime":428.76,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":429.08,"endTime":431.64,"body":"We're working on a design"},{"startTime":431.64,"endTime":434.2,"body":"that that is we expect"},{"startTime":431.64,"endTime":434.2,"body":"that will double that"},{"startTime":434.32,"endTime":437.68,"body":"to one kilowatt per liter. Now"},{"startTime":437.68,"endTime":440.64,"body":"for on the earth applications,"},{"startTime":441.16,"endTime":445.8,"body":"our stock that that we showcased"},{"startTime":441.16,"endTime":445.8,"body":"there at CES is around"},{"startTime":445.8,"endTime":451.08,"body":"four point something kilowatts"},{"startTime":445.8,"endTime":451.08,"body":"per liter on the low of 4.2, 4.3, 4.1."},{"startTime":451.4,"endTime":456.32,"body":"And the packet and where you run it"},{"startTime":451.4,"endTime":456.32,"body":"and this is assessed at the standard"},{"startTime":457.12,"endTime":460.56,"body":"developed by the Chinese marketplace,"},{"startTime":457.12,"endTime":460.56,"body":"which is at 0.6 volts,"},{"startTime":460.8,"endTime":466.24,"body":"you can always make those numbers read"},{"startTime":460.8,"endTime":466.24,"body":"a higher value or spit out a higher value"},{"startTime":466.6,"endTime":469.16,"body":"if you don't evaluate them at point"},{"startTime":466.6,"endTime":469.16,"body":"six volts."},{"startTime":469.56,"endTime":471.6,"body":"Okay, we're doing that standard level."},{"startTime":471.6,"endTime":476.16,"body":"So that's pretty important in this stock"},{"startTime":471.6,"endTime":476.16,"body":"that is in this low fours kilowatts"},{"startTime":476.16,"endTime":480.2,"body":"per liter is one of the highest ones"},{"startTime":476.16,"endTime":480.2,"body":"that are available in the marketplace."},{"startTime":480.72,"endTime":483.92,"body":"The next iteration that we're working on"},{"startTime":480.72,"endTime":483.92,"body":"will improve that"},{"startTime":484.16,"endTime":488.2,"body":"30, 40,"},{"startTime":484.16,"endTime":488.2,"body":"possibly 50% depending on the application."},{"startTime":488.2,"endTime":491.68,"body":"So we're talking about that number"},{"startTime":488.2,"endTime":491.68,"body":"being in the high"},{"startTime":491.68,"endTime":494.8,"body":"fives, mid-size to high fives"},{"startTime":496.72,"endTime":498.36,"body":"within the next several years."},{"startTime":498.36,"endTime":500.68,"body":"Now, you will see if you"},{"startTime":500.88,"endTime":505.08,"body":"look in the marketplace"},{"startTime":500.88,"endTime":505.08,"body":"and Google stacked power density,"},{"startTime":505.08,"endTime":509.08,"body":"high power density, you will hear numbers"},{"startTime":505.08,"endTime":509.08,"body":"that are very high."},{"startTime":509.56,"endTime":512.4,"body":"The problem is"},{"startTime":509.56,"endTime":512.4,"body":"those aren't taken at that standard level."},{"startTime":512.4,"endTime":514.96,"body":"We can make our numbers also meaningful"},{"startTime":515.88,"endTime":518.04,"body":"If we don't take that standard level."},{"startTime":518.04,"endTime":523.88,"body":"So it's a it's a bit of a trick"},{"startTime":518.04,"endTime":523.88,"body":"that's sometimes used."},{"startTime":524.08,"endTime":526.28,"body":"But I'm glad there is the Chinese"},{"startTime":527.0,"endTime":530.24,"body":"government has released the standard"},{"startTime":527.0,"endTime":530.24,"body":"that we can all compare that"},{"startTime":531.72,"endTime":533.0,"body":"and it's a fair standard."},{"startTime":533.0,"endTime":534.36,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":534.68,"endTime":538.92,"body":"So you're bringing up"},{"startTime":534.68,"endTime":538.92,"body":"Chinese and Fuelcells I see."},{"startTime":538.92,"endTime":542.68,"body":"Or I have seen personally,"},{"startTime":538.92,"endTime":542.68,"body":"certainly quite a bit of movement"},{"startTime":542.68,"endTime":546.28,"body":"globally now with with fuel cell and stack"},{"startTime":542.68,"endTime":546.28,"body":"related technologies."},{"startTime":546.28,"endTime":549.04,"body":"Europe, a lot of stationary power. Right."},{"startTime":549.08,"endTime":550.88,"body":"We see there we see it in the U.S."},{"startTime":550.88,"endTime":552.96,"body":"now, as you mentioned,"},{"startTime":550.88,"endTime":552.96,"body":"for the mobility space."},{"startTime":553.4,"endTime":558.0,"body":"And I've seen it in Asia,"},{"startTime":553.4,"endTime":558.0,"body":"but not necessarily in China as much."},{"startTime":558.36,"endTime":559.48,"body":"So is China"},{"startTime":559.48,"endTime":562.0,"body":"leading them that you're saying"},{"startTime":559.48,"endTime":562.0,"body":"they're setting a standard or you're"},{"startTime":562.0,"endTime":564.72,"body":"just saying this is a good standard"},{"startTime":562.0,"endTime":564.72,"body":"that many people are using?"},{"startTime":564.72,"endTime":567.36,"body":"Just because China stepped up and used it?"},{"startTime":568.0,"endTime":570.6,"body":". I think a lot of the big"},{"startTime":571.92,"endTime":575.2,"body":"China has, first of all, more trucks,"},{"startTime":571.92,"endTime":575.2,"body":"busses"},{"startTime":575.48,"endTime":578.68,"body":"running on fuel cells"},{"startTime":575.48,"endTime":578.68,"body":"than anywhere else in the world."},{"startTime":579.16,"endTime":582.0,"body":"I would even say combined."},{"startTime":582.4,"endTime":583.88,"body":"They're more is probably"},{"startTime":583.88,"endTime":587.12,"body":"just more quiet to our Western. And"},{"startTime":588.6,"endTime":593.52,"body":"so they do have a lot of momentum"},{"startTime":588.6,"endTime":593.52,"body":"and the government"},{"startTime":593.52,"endTime":597.64,"body":"has spent a lot of money"},{"startTime":593.52,"endTime":597.64,"body":"to support getting hydrogen, doing"},{"startTime":598.12,"endTime":602.16,"body":"development projects, demo projects"},{"startTime":598.12,"endTime":602.16,"body":"to try to decarbonize"},{"startTime":602.6,"endTime":606.48,"body":"the the the the grid and the"},{"startTime":607.08,"endTime":610.68,"body":"the distribution system in China,"},{"startTime":607.08,"endTime":610.68,"body":"which is largely based on coal."},{"startTime":611.08,"endTime":614.64,"body":"So there is a lot so"},{"startTime":615.24,"endTime":616.72,"body":"any fuel cell company"},{"startTime":616.72,"endTime":621.08,"body":"that you look up will have at least one"},{"startTime":616.72,"endTime":621.08,"body":"project with someone in China"},{"startTime":621.08,"endTime":624.48,"body":"because they're spending significant"},{"startTime":621.08,"endTime":624.48,"body":"amount of money to get this going."},{"startTime":624.92,"endTime":627.12,"body":"Yeah. Now, interesting."},{"startTime":627.12,"endTime":631.8,"body":"So going back to your team,"},{"startTime":627.12,"endTime":631.8,"body":"I know we've updated the facilities."},{"startTime":631.8,"endTime":634.92,"body":"We have a significant amount of testing"},{"startTime":631.8,"endTime":634.92,"body":"capability there,"},{"startTime":635.44,"endTime":638.52,"body":"but correct me if I'm wrong,"},{"startTime":635.44,"endTime":638.52,"body":"we're really focusing on the stack, right?"},{"startTime":638.52,"endTime":643.44,"body":"Not necessarily on the complete, let's"},{"startTime":638.52,"endTime":643.44,"body":"say, power plant, but really on the stack."},{"startTime":643.44,"endTime":646.84,"body":"And that's what we want to do"},{"startTime":643.44,"endTime":646.84,"body":"because we really want to become expert"},{"startTime":647.56,"endTime":651.64,"body":"at the stack level"},{"startTime":647.56,"endTime":651.64,"body":"as a technology license provider,"},{"startTime":652.04,"endTime":656.96,"body":"but also as an ability to make AVL"},{"startTime":652.04,"endTime":656.96,"body":"as a as a technology provider smarter"},{"startTime":657.48,"endTime":662.28,"body":"to not take fuel cell stack as a black box"},{"startTime":657.48,"endTime":662.28,"body":"and then integrate it into a larger"},{"startTime":662.8,"endTime":666.12,"body":"hydrogen based power plant,"},{"startTime":662.8,"endTime":666.12,"body":"but really become expert from,"},{"startTime":666.12,"endTime":667.68,"body":"let's say, cradle to grave."},{"startTime":667.68,"endTime":669.6,"body":"Explain a little bit on that. Maybe."},{"startTime":669.6,"endTime":670.08,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":670.08,"endTime":674.36,"body":"When we started,"},{"startTime":670.08,"endTime":674.36,"body":"what specifically sets our location"},{"startTime":676.16,"endTime":676.56,"body":"apart"},{"startTime":676.56,"endTime":680.68,"body":"as we are the Global Center of Excellence"},{"startTime":676.56,"endTime":680.68,"body":"in AVL for PEM fuel cell stack"},{"startTime":681.36,"endTime":685.8,"body":"that's based in Vancouver because this"},{"startTime":681.36,"endTime":685.8,"body":"has been a hub since the beginning"},{"startTime":687.08,"endTime":689.88,"body":"20, 30 years"},{"startTime":687.08,"endTime":689.88,"body":"of the early technology development."},{"startTime":689.88,"endTime":694.24,"body":"So that's created a significant ecosystem"},{"startTime":689.88,"endTime":694.24,"body":"within the area of talent"},{"startTime":694.68,"endTime":697.52,"body":"that works on this,"},{"startTime":694.68,"endTime":697.52,"body":"that knows how to push the edges"},{"startTime":697.52,"endTime":700.04,"body":"and achieve the best power"},{"startTime":697.52,"endTime":700.04,"body":"density, durability,"},{"startTime":701.16,"endTime":702.6,"body":"all the key requirements."},{"startTime":702.6,"endTime":705.6,"body":"So yeah, that's right."},{"startTime":705.84,"endTime":710.08,"body":"Our our expertise is designing"},{"startTime":705.84,"endTime":710.08,"body":"the bipolar plates,"},{"startTime":711.0,"endTime":713.16,"body":"the catalyst materials"},{"startTime":713.16,"endTime":715.96,"body":"that deliver the best performance"},{"startTime":713.16,"endTime":715.96,"body":"and durability."},{"startTime":716.28,"endTime":722.04,"body":"In addition to doing the design,"},{"startTime":716.28,"endTime":722.04,"body":"we also do the prototyping of those parts."},{"startTime":722.04,"endTime":725.88,"body":"We build stocks and we have a hydrogen"},{"startTime":722.04,"endTime":725.88,"body":"safe lab right behind me"},{"startTime":727.2,"endTime":731.44,"body":"that is able to test those stocks"},{"startTime":727.2,"endTime":731.44,"body":"for performance and durability."},{"startTime":731.84,"endTime":735.24,"body":"We also provide an important service"},{"startTime":735.24,"endTime":738.76,"body":"that doesn't exist very much"},{"startTime":735.24,"endTime":738.76,"body":"within the fuel cell world."},{"startTime":738.84,"endTime":744.48,"body":"World is that we can take other"},{"startTime":738.84,"endTime":744.48,"body":"customer stocks and test them in our lab."},{"startTime":744.52,"endTime":748.12,"body":"So not our designs"},{"startTime":744.52,"endTime":748.12,"body":"and not our OEMs that we're working for,"},{"startTime":748.12,"endTime":752.28,"body":"but we can run testing"},{"startTime":748.12,"endTime":752.28,"body":"as a service here at AVL, which I think is"},{"startTime":752.28,"endTime":755.44,"body":"is quite important because that's"},{"startTime":752.28,"endTime":755.44,"body":"generally very limited within"},{"startTime":756.52,"endTime":759.6,"body":"the landscape"},{"startTime":756.52,"endTime":759.6,"body":"of where you can get out there,"},{"startTime":760.24,"endTime":763.0,"body":"a specific case"},{"startTime":760.24,"endTime":763.0,"body":"where you see that happening,"},{"startTime":763.0,"endTime":767.04,"body":"it might take 3 to 5 years"},{"startTime":763.0,"endTime":767.04,"body":"for you to build a facility,"},{"startTime":767.48,"endTime":771.24,"body":"get a hydrogen certification"},{"startTime":767.48,"endTime":771.24,"body":"to run that in your lab"},{"startTime":771.44,"endTime":773.28,"body":"and you know, that's that's slow."},{"startTime":773.28,"endTime":777.28,"body":"a you can potential customers"},{"startTime":773.28,"endTime":777.28,"body":"and ones that we've actually had"},{"startTime":777.28,"endTime":780.2,"body":"come through here have developed a stack"},{"startTime":777.28,"endTime":780.2,"body":"they just have no way to test that."},{"startTime":780.48,"endTime":784.04,"body":"So we can help with"},{"startTime":780.48,"endTime":784.04,"body":"not just providing in the facility but"},{"startTime":784.16,"endTime":787.84,"body":"trained engineers that know how to operate"},{"startTime":784.16,"endTime":787.84,"body":"them can recommend"},{"startTime":788.48,"endTime":791.8,"body":"optimum operating strategies"},{"startTime":788.48,"endTime":791.8,"body":"for those stacks."},{"startTime":791.8,"endTime":797.52,"body":"So it's it's been a good journey,"},{"startTime":791.8,"endTime":797.52,"body":"but we're we're now very ready"},{"startTime":797.52,"endTime":801.72,"body":"to test lab available"},{"startTime":797.52,"endTime":801.72,"body":"to outside customers."},{"startTime":801.72,"endTime":804.52,"body":"Good and maybe to work to wrap things up."},{"startTime":805.44,"endTime":809.12,"body":"If you look out ten years,"},{"startTime":805.44,"endTime":809.12,"body":"maybe based on the trajectory"},{"startTime":809.12,"endTime":813.04,"body":"you've had over the last ten years,"},{"startTime":809.12,"endTime":813.04,"body":"but look over ten years"},{"startTime":813.04,"endTime":819.16,"body":"and say it's not proportionally but"},{"startTime":813.04,"endTime":819.16,"body":"disproportionally ride increasing work."},{"startTime":819.16,"endTime":822.36,"body":"Can we get to I mean, you said"},{"startTime":819.16,"endTime":822.36,"body":"we're in the mid let's say five"},{"startTime":822.36,"endTime":825.72,"body":"and a half maybe will push it"},{"startTime":822.36,"endTime":825.72,"body":"six kilowatt hours per liter."},{"startTime":826.16,"endTime":831.2,"body":"Well, where are we going to be in in,"},{"startTime":826.16,"endTime":831.2,"body":"in ten years and underestimate ocean."},{"startTime":831.36,"endTime":833.4,"body":"I think that's going to level off."},{"startTime":833.4,"endTime":835.72,"body":"You know how off we can."},{"startTime":833.4,"endTime":835.72,"body":"You know, I don't see that"},{"startTime":837.2,"endTime":839.52,"body":"at most linear."},{"startTime":839.52,"endTime":840.08,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":840.08,"endTime":843.0,"body":"It'll level off"},{"startTime":840.08,"endTime":843.0,"body":"and where it'll come down to is"},{"startTime":843.44,"endTime":847.56,"body":"distinguishing your technology"},{"startTime":843.44,"endTime":847.56,"body":"for durability."},{"startTime":848.4,"endTime":852.84,"body":"Like I'm pushing 20,000, 30000 hours. No."},{"startTime":854.44,"endTime":858.2,"body":"As soon as hydrogen"},{"startTime":854.44,"endTime":858.2,"body":"infrastructure becomes available."},{"startTime":858.2,"endTime":861.56,"body":"Now that's a big part of the"},{"startTime":858.2,"endTime":861.56,"body":"of the whole ecosystem."},{"startTime":861.56,"endTime":865.56,"body":"We have some investments within APL"},{"startTime":861.56,"endTime":865.56,"body":"that the scope of the market"},{"startTime":865.56,"endTime":868.08,"body":"in mobility is probably like 20 30%."},{"startTime":868.56,"endTime":872.48,"body":"That means 70% of that is stationary"},{"startTime":873.64,"endTime":877.84,"body":"electrolysis generating hydrogen"},{"startTime":873.64,"endTime":877.84,"body":"so that you can use it in mobility."},{"startTime":878.64,"endTime":880.84,"body":"Or very important. Operations."},{"startTime":880.84,"endTime":884.84,"body":"So in those applications, durability"},{"startTime":880.84,"endTime":884.84,"body":"is even more important"},{"startTime":884.84,"endTime":888.08,"body":"because it's just sitting there idle"},{"startTime":884.84,"endTime":888.08,"body":"generating hydrogen."},{"startTime":888.08,"endTime":891.8,"body":"I'm talking a little bit"},{"startTime":888.08,"endTime":891.8,"body":"about electrolysis, first generation"},{"startTime":891.8,"endTime":894.8,"body":"instead of the consumption,"},{"startTime":891.8,"endTime":894.8,"body":"but that's where I think"},{"startTime":896.64,"endTime":898.16,"body":"the market will go"},{"startTime":898.16,"endTime":902.76,"body":"is is really more focusing"},{"startTime":898.16,"endTime":902.76,"body":"instead of squeezing out the most power."},{"startTime":902.76,"endTime":907.96,"body":"You know, we don't need an F1 car,"},{"startTime":902.76,"endTime":907.96,"body":"we need a Corolla that lasts a long time."},{"startTime":907.96,"endTime":909.24,"body":"It's extremely reliable."},{"startTime":909.24,"endTime":914.08,"body":"So I think that's"},{"startTime":909.24,"endTime":914.08,"body":"where it's going to end up."},{"startTime":914.08,"endTime":914.52,"body":"So you don't."},{"startTime":914.52,"endTime":917.64,"body":"So again, putting you on the spot"},{"startTime":914.52,"endTime":917.64,"body":"here on the where are you going to say"},{"startTime":917.64,"endTime":920.96,"body":"we're going to get to eight kilowatt hours"},{"startTime":917.64,"endTime":920.96,"body":"or even that's a push."},{"startTime":920.96,"endTime":925.0,"body":"I think that's the push on"},{"startTime":920.96,"endTime":925.0,"body":"is a really big seven."},{"startTime":925.72,"endTime":926.24,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":926.52,"endTime":929.48,"body":"You know, if you"},{"startTime":926.52,"endTime":929.48,"body":"if you assess it at a standard level,"},{"startTime":930.36,"endTime":935.12,"body":"I think that's that's six,"},{"startTime":930.36,"endTime":935.12,"body":"seven, maybe around there in ten years,"},{"startTime":936.64,"endTime":937.16,"body":"because I"},{"startTime":937.16,"endTime":941.0,"body":"think that market's not going to push for"},{"startTime":937.16,"endTime":941.0,"body":"as much"},{"startTime":941.2,"endTime":943.8,"body":"the extreme power"},{"startTime":941.2,"endTime":943.8,"body":"because we can already get there"},{"startTime":943.8,"endTime":948.12,"body":"in the power"},{"startTime":943.8,"endTime":948.12,"body":"to make that durable contain leaks."},{"startTime":948.12,"endTime":950.48,"body":"I mean, hydrogen is tiny."},{"startTime":950.48,"endTime":952.4,"body":"It's hard to contain leaks."},{"startTime":952.4,"endTime":954.84,"body":"Every fuel cell stock,"},{"startTime":952.4,"endTime":954.84,"body":"I think this is an important point"},{"startTime":954.88,"endTime":958.52,"body":"you're arguing gets a lot of publicity"},{"startTime":958.52,"endTime":961.68,"body":"for being dangerous or things like that."},{"startTime":961.68,"endTime":964.2,"body":"It's really much less dangerous"},{"startTime":961.68,"endTime":964.2,"body":"than a liquid"},{"startTime":965.64,"endTime":968.36,"body":"fuel like gasoline,"},{"startTime":965.64,"endTime":968.36,"body":"because hydrogen disperses"},{"startTime":968.36,"endTime":972.12,"body":"very quickly and it disappears right away."},{"startTime":972.12,"endTime":976.44,"body":"It doesn't stay concentrated,"},{"startTime":972.12,"endTime":976.44,"body":"but because it's so small, hydrogen"},{"startTime":977.2,"endTime":980.32,"body":"every through cell stock"},{"startTime":977.2,"endTime":980.32,"body":"has even the tiniest little bit of leaks."},{"startTime":980.32,"endTime":982.28,"body":"Those are acceptable."},{"startTime":982.28,"endTime":983.6,"body":"It's all about making sure"},{"startTime":983.6,"endTime":987.6,"body":"that these levels are contained"},{"startTime":983.6,"endTime":987.6,"body":"and diluted about base level."},{"startTime":987.6,"endTime":990.08,"body":"So it's okay."},{"startTime":987.6,"endTime":990.08,"body":"I wouldn't worry about the stock."},{"startTime":990.32,"endTime":992.08,"body":"I've got leaks a tiny bit."},{"startTime":992.08,"endTime":993.44,"body":"I'm talking about durability"},{"startTime":993.44,"endTime":996.48,"body":"where this becomes an issue"},{"startTime":993.44,"endTime":996.48,"body":"in terms of emissions that are not safe"},{"startTime":997.72,"endTime":1001.92,"body":"and and there will be regulatory"},{"startTime":997.72,"endTime":1001.92,"body":"requirements that control those emissions"},{"startTime":1001.92,"endTime":1002.16,"body":"level."},{"startTime":1002.16,"endTime":1004.56,"body":"But it's really, again,"},{"startTime":1002.16,"endTime":1004.56,"body":"just doubling down on that."},{"startTime":1005.52,"endTime":1007.64,"body":"It's the durability"},{"startTime":1007.64,"endTime":1010.72,"body":"I think is going to distinguish"},{"startTime":1010.96,"endTime":1014.48,"body":"who were in the market"},{"startTime":1010.96,"endTime":1014.48,"body":"in 20 years, 30 years now."},{"startTime":1015.32,"endTime":1018.08,"body":"And then really final question,"},{"startTime":1015.32,"endTime":1018.08,"body":"because you just touched upon something"},{"startTime":1018.08,"endTime":1018.88,"body":"regulation."},{"startTime":1018.88,"endTime":1024.08,"body":"How in your opinion,"},{"startTime":1018.88,"endTime":1024.08,"body":"how regulated is the market, right,"},{"startTime":1024.08,"endTime":1027.8,"body":"from a from a safety,"},{"startTime":1024.08,"endTime":1027.8,"body":"from a from a testing requirement?"},{"startTime":1028.04,"endTime":1030.8,"body":"I mean, we see this a little bit"},{"startTime":1028.04,"endTime":1030.8,"body":"with with automotive batteries, right?"},{"startTime":1030.92,"endTime":1034.36,"body":"We're learning very fast and things"},{"startTime":1030.92,"endTime":1034.36,"body":"getting at a very, very quick point."},{"startTime":1034.72,"endTime":1036.88,"body":"And the next thing is recyclability."},{"startTime":1036.88,"endTime":1039.8,"body":"So there is a traceability for cells, a"},{"startTime":1039.88,"endTime":1043.04,"body":"requirement in Europe now active"},{"startTime":1039.88,"endTime":1043.04,"body":"or going to be active soon."},{"startTime":1043.04,"endTime":1046.52,"body":"As it relates to"},{"startTime":1043.04,"endTime":1046.52,"body":"how do you have to re recycle a battery."},{"startTime":1046.8,"endTime":1050.28,"body":"So that ties into and out of designs"},{"startTime":1046.8,"endTime":1050.28,"body":"that we also do for our partners."},{"startTime":1050.56,"endTime":1053.84,"body":"How is certainty in the fuel cell stack?"},{"startTime":1053.84,"endTime":1057.4,"body":"Just fuel cell stack. So yeah, it is."},{"startTime":1057.4,"endTime":1063.12,"body":"I mean, certainly that technology is ahead"},{"startTime":1057.4,"endTime":1063.12,"body":"of the regulations at the moment."},{"startTime":1064.28,"endTime":1067.52,"body":"There are we are seeing"},{"startTime":1068.16,"endTime":1070.4,"body":"requirements being established Initially."},{"startTime":1070.4,"endTime":1073.6,"body":"I think those requirements"},{"startTime":1070.4,"endTime":1073.6,"body":"are more stringent that they need to be"},{"startTime":1073.6,"endTime":1075.8,"body":"because people"},{"startTime":1073.6,"endTime":1075.8,"body":"to understand the technology."},{"startTime":1075.8,"endTime":1077.96,"body":"So they're coming to."},{"startTime":1077.96,"endTime":1079.08,"body":"The extreme."},{"startTime":1079.08,"endTime":1081.8,"body":"Three end of it, which can be, you know,"},{"startTime":1081.8,"endTime":1085.72,"body":"navigating that landscape"},{"startTime":1081.8,"endTime":1085.72,"body":"a little bit, a little bit complicated."},{"startTime":1085.72,"endTime":1088.52,"body":"But but I think that'll come down"},{"startTime":1085.72,"endTime":1088.52,"body":"as people"},{"startTime":1088.88,"endTime":1091.08,"body":"as we get more knowledge"},{"startTime":1088.88,"endTime":1091.08,"body":"out there about hydrogen,"},{"startTime":1092.08,"endTime":1095.24,"body":"the benefits of it are understood"},{"startTime":1092.08,"endTime":1095.24,"body":"and people understand that it's"},{"startTime":1096.68,"endTime":1098.2,"body":"it's it's"},{"startTime":1098.68,"endTime":1102.08,"body":"currently in some some minds out there"},{"startTime":1102.08,"endTime":1105.6,"body":"associated with like bad things"},{"startTime":1102.08,"endTime":1105.6,"body":"that have happened where it's really"},{"startTime":1106.48,"endTime":1109.64,"body":"and there's been a lot of progress"},{"startTime":1106.48,"endTime":1109.64,"body":"in that over the last couple of years"},{"startTime":1110.2,"endTime":1114.56,"body":"focusing on the benefits of that"},{"startTime":1110.2,"endTime":1114.56,"body":"and that that's where I think"},{"startTime":1114.56,"endTime":1119.4,"body":"that the regulations will will follow to"},{"startTime":1114.56,"endTime":1119.4,"body":"to be more or reasonable."},{"startTime":1119.64,"endTime":1121.6,"body":"Right. Okay."},{"startTime":1121.6,"endTime":1122.48,"body":"Very good."},{"startTime":1122.48,"endTime":1124.6,"body":"Thanks for your time."},{"startTime":1124.6,"endTime":1125.36,"body":"Yeah, no problem."},{"startTime":1125.36,"endTime":1127.52,"body":"I feel really appreciate it."},{"startTime":1127.52,"endTime":1130.4,"body":"Thanks, everyone, for believing"},{"startTime":1127.52,"endTime":1130.4,"body":"and thanks for listening."},{"startTime":1130.4,"endTime":1132.2,"body":"To Reimagine Mobility Podcast."},{"startTime":1132.2,"endTime":1134.84,"body":"If you like this episode,"},{"startTime":1132.2,"endTime":1134.84,"body":"please subscribe and tell a friend."}]}