{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":3.737,"endTime":8.742,"body":"Welcome, everyone, to our latest podcast"},{"startTime":3.737,"endTime":8.742,"body":"edition of Reimagining Mobility."},{"startTime":9.009,"endTime":10.81,"body":"I'm here with Simon Fraser, business"},{"startTime":10.81,"endTime":14.814,"body":"development for Fuel Cell Canada,"},{"startTime":10.81,"endTime":14.814,"body":"our organization."},{"startTime":14.814,"endTime":18.852,"body":"That custom develops"},{"startTime":14.814,"endTime":18.852,"body":"fuel cell stacks for mobility space."},{"startTime":18.852,"endTime":23.656,"body":"Anything from stationary power"},{"startTime":18.852,"endTime":23.656,"body":"are two things that fly in the air,"},{"startTime":23.656,"endTime":26.493,"body":"things that float on water"},{"startTime":23.656,"endTime":26.493,"body":"and obviously on the road."},{"startTime":27.093,"endTime":30.497,"body":"Simon welcome and thank you for your time."},{"startTime":30.497,"endTime":31.698,"body":"me a little bit."},{"startTime":31.698,"endTime":36.97,"body":"You're in business development, so"},{"startTime":31.698,"endTime":36.97,"body":"you go to customers highlighting to them."},{"startTime":37.404,"endTime":39.806,"body":"And fuel cell stack technology, certainly"},{"startTime":40.306,"endTime":43.61,"body":"a very key ingredient similar"},{"startTime":40.306,"endTime":43.61,"body":"to what we're talking in electric vehicle,"},{"startTime":43.61,"endTime":46.346,"body":"the actual battery cell, how critical"},{"startTime":43.61,"endTime":46.346,"body":"it is."},{"startTime":47.414,"endTime":51.384,"body":"Why should somebody develop its its own"},{"startTime":47.414,"endTime":51.384,"body":"or his or her own"},{"startTime":51.851,"endTime":55.488,"body":"fuel cell stack from the ground"},{"startTime":51.851,"endTime":55.488,"body":"up, the membrane and everything else"},{"startTime":55.889,"endTime":58.491,"body":"instead of going"},{"startTime":55.889,"endTime":58.491,"body":"and buying something off the shelf?"},{"startTime":59.926,"endTime":62.262,"body":"That's"},{"startTime":59.926,"endTime":62.262,"body":"actually a very, very good question."},{"startTime":62.262,"endTime":66.566,"body":"So the stack, in essence, is the core"},{"startTime":62.262,"endTime":66.566,"body":"of the fuel cell propulsion system."},{"startTime":66.566,"endTime":71.271,"body":"So it strongly defines how powerful,"},{"startTime":66.566,"endTime":71.271,"body":"how efficient, durable, how robust."},{"startTime":71.271,"endTime":76.042,"body":"And in the and also how expensive"},{"startTime":71.271,"endTime":76.042,"body":"a fuel cell propulsion system is."},{"startTime":76.709,"endTime":80.246,"body":"Of course, you need the combination"},{"startTime":76.709,"endTime":80.246,"body":"with the balance of planned components."},{"startTime":80.246,"endTime":82.682,"body":"The other subsystems"},{"startTime":80.246,"endTime":82.682,"body":"like the thermal subsystem."},{"startTime":82.682,"endTime":86.686,"body":"But the stack has a very strong"},{"startTime":82.682,"endTime":86.686,"body":"and very direct impact."},{"startTime":87.287,"endTime":91.758,"body":"So very often we talk to customers"},{"startTime":87.287,"endTime":91.758,"body":"who start off having a first application,"},{"startTime":91.758,"endTime":96.696,"body":"a few trucks, a few, I don't know, a first"},{"startTime":91.758,"endTime":96.696,"body":"a first ferry application, for instance."},{"startTime":96.93,"endTime":99.132,"body":"And they start off buying a stack,"},{"startTime":99.833,"endTime":102.402,"body":"a standardized stack,"},{"startTime":99.833,"endTime":102.402,"body":"which is available off the shelf."},{"startTime":103.203,"endTime":107.14,"body":"And for this first demo application, it's"},{"startTime":103.203,"endTime":107.14,"body":"good enough so it works."},{"startTime":107.14,"endTime":109.609,"body":"It’s available fine yeah?"},{"startTime":109.609,"endTime":113.146,"body":"But when you start looking"},{"startTime":109.609,"endTime":113.146,"body":"beyond the first demo mile applications,"},{"startTime":113.546,"endTime":118.518,"body":"when you start to think about a larger"},{"startTime":113.546,"endTime":118.518,"body":"deployment of your product, when you start"},{"startTime":119.085,"endTime":123.256,"body":"to think about the business case"},{"startTime":119.085,"endTime":123.256,"body":"of selling a fuel cell based product,"},{"startTime":124.491,"endTime":125.291,"body":"very often"},{"startTime":125.291,"endTime":130.096,"body":"it's clear that is an off the shelf stack"},{"startTime":125.291,"endTime":130.096,"body":"is not going to be the best solution, but"},{"startTime":130.63,"endTime":134.234,"body":"you want to have the best possible stack"},{"startTime":130.63,"endTime":134.234,"body":"for your specific application."},{"startTime":134.467,"endTime":138.805,"body":"And that's when you start to think and"},{"startTime":134.467,"endTime":138.805,"body":"say, okay, what do I specifically need?"},{"startTime":138.805,"endTime":141.441,"body":"Which power"},{"startTime":138.805,"endTime":141.441,"body":"and what's my efficiency target there?"},{"startTime":141.774,"endTime":144.644,"body":"The form factor,"},{"startTime":141.774,"endTime":144.644,"body":"for instance, simple things"},{"startTime":144.644,"endTime":148.681,"body":"which which are very important for"},{"startTime":144.644,"endTime":148.681,"body":"integrating the stack into your vehicle,"},{"startTime":148.681,"endTime":151.784,"body":"into a marine application or whatever."},{"startTime":151.784,"endTime":155.755,"body":"And so that's when you start to think"},{"startTime":151.784,"endTime":155.755,"body":"and say, okay, doesn't it make sense"},{"startTime":155.755,"endTime":159.893,"body":"to actually have a custom developed"},{"startTime":155.755,"endTime":159.893,"body":"stack for my specific application"},{"startTime":160.26,"endTime":163.062,"body":"and that's when we start to discuss"},{"startTime":160.26,"endTime":163.062,"body":"and say, okay, yes,"},{"startTime":163.663,"endTime":166.065,"body":"the stack could a certain degree be"},{"startTime":163.663,"endTime":166.065,"body":"its can and"},{"startTime":166.065,"endTime":169.269,"body":"it will be a differentiator"},{"startTime":166.065,"endTime":169.269,"body":"for your specific product."},{"startTime":169.936,"endTime":172.372,"body":"does make sense to consider custom"},{"startTime":172.372,"endTime":175.575,"body":"developing your own stack"},{"startTime":172.372,"endTime":175.575,"body":"not for every application,"},{"startTime":176.676,"endTime":178.545,"body":"but for some application."},{"startTime":178.545,"endTime":181.414,"body":"It's a very, very valid consideration"},{"startTime":181.881,"endTime":184.884,"body":"and that's when we start to discuss"},{"startTime":181.881,"endTime":184.884,"body":"and say, okay, what is possible"},{"startTime":184.884,"endTime":190.223,"body":"is a really custom engineered stack"},{"startTime":184.884,"endTime":190.223,"body":"for my specific set of requirements which,"},{"startTime":190.223,"endTime":194.494,"body":"which possibilities, some advantages"},{"startTime":190.223,"endTime":194.494,"body":"we have compared to buying an off"},{"startTime":195.028,"endTime":197.897,"body":"the shelf"},{"startTime":195.028,"endTime":197.897,"body":"stack from a from a stack supplier."},{"startTime":200.166,"endTime":201.067,"body":"Very good."},{"startTime":201.634,"endTime":204.404,"body":"I know from years ago"},{"startTime":201.634,"endTime":204.404,"body":"when we were involved with stack"},{"startTime":204.404,"endTime":205.905,"body":"development for heavy duty truck"},{"startTime":205.905,"endTime":210.143,"body":"application, one of the one of the key"},{"startTime":205.905,"endTime":210.143,"body":"targets was durability, right?"},{"startTime":210.143,"endTime":213.846,"body":"You can have a stack"},{"startTime":210.143,"endTime":213.846,"body":"for a heavy duty truck that as opposed to"},{"startTime":213.846,"endTime":217.951,"body":"a passenger"},{"startTime":213.846,"endTime":217.951,"body":"vehicle is used 90% of the time versus"},{"startTime":217.951,"endTime":221.788,"body":"90% of the time sitting in my driveway"},{"startTime":217.951,"endTime":221.788,"body":"or at work in the parking lot."},{"startTime":221.788,"endTime":222.422,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":223.022,"endTime":225.491,"body":"So what I think at that point,"},{"startTime":223.022,"endTime":225.491,"body":"we were talking 20"},{"startTime":225.491,"endTime":228.161,"body":"to 25000 hours of operation."},{"startTime":228.661,"endTime":231.898,"body":"Are we are we there now in generally"},{"startTime":228.661,"endTime":231.898,"body":"speaking, Because back then"},{"startTime":231.898,"endTime":236.236,"body":"that was kind of like not unreachable,"},{"startTime":231.898,"endTime":236.236,"body":"but very few were able to do that."},{"startTime":236.769,"endTime":241.841,"body":"Are we there by now with with that"},{"startTime":236.769,"endTime":241.841,"body":"as more of a of a standard that any"},{"startTime":242.408,"endTime":246.079,"body":"any stack that not just we developed"},{"startTime":242.408,"endTime":246.079,"body":"but others develop as well that that's"},{"startTime":246.079,"endTime":249.782,"body":"sort of the minimum is 20 to 25"},{"startTime":246.079,"endTime":249.782,"body":"or we're not there yet?"},{"startTime":250.65,"endTime":253.786,"body":"I mean this very strongly depends"},{"startTime":250.65,"endTime":253.786,"body":"on which kind of materials,"},{"startTime":253.786,"endTime":256.656,"body":"which kind of designs"},{"startTime":253.786,"endTime":256.656,"body":"you apply in your specific stack."},{"startTime":257.056,"endTime":260.56,"body":"Historically, many stacks were developed"},{"startTime":257.056,"endTime":260.56,"body":"for automotive applications,"},{"startTime":260.56,"endTime":265.331,"body":"some +/-100 kilowatts and much lower"},{"startTime":260.56,"endTime":265.331,"body":"durability requirements."},{"startTime":265.865,"endTime":269.902,"body":"Now we see that heavy duty trucks,"},{"startTime":265.865,"endTime":269.902,"body":"long range trucks are really going"},{"startTime":269.902,"endTime":273.873,"body":"to be one of the most important"},{"startTime":269.902,"endTime":273.873,"body":"initial applications we're going to see."},{"startTime":275.608,"endTime":277.076,"body":"And of course, yes, you have"},{"startTime":277.076,"endTime":280.813,"body":"to meet the 25,000 minimum"},{"startTime":277.076,"endTime":280.813,"body":"lifetime requirements."},{"startTime":281.414,"endTime":284.851,"body":"And yes,"},{"startTime":281.414,"endTime":284.851,"body":"you have to very carefully pick and choose"},{"startTime":284.851,"endTime":287.553,"body":"which which materials"},{"startTime":284.851,"endTime":287.553,"body":"you're going to use in this stack,"},{"startTime":287.954,"endTime":291.124,"body":"which technologies,"},{"startTime":287.954,"endTime":291.124,"body":"which designs you're going to apply."},{"startTime":291.124,"endTime":292.759,"body":"And in this specific stack,"},{"startTime":292.759,"endTime":296.929,"body":"if you make the right choices,"},{"startTime":292.759,"endTime":296.929,"body":"25000 hours are possible."},{"startTime":296.929,"endTime":301.1,"body":"But many stacks, particularly ones"},{"startTime":296.929,"endTime":301.1,"body":"which have been historically developed"},{"startTime":301.1,"endTime":305.972,"body":"for automotive applications, will"},{"startTime":301.1,"endTime":305.972,"body":"not be able to meet these 25000 hours."},{"startTime":306.239,"endTime":308.574,"body":"So this is also one of the points"},{"startTime":306.239,"endTime":308.574,"body":"where we are."},{"startTime":308.608,"endTime":311.678,"body":"Of course, we have to have a deep dive"},{"startTime":308.608,"endTime":311.678,"body":"with the customer to understand"},{"startTime":311.678,"endTime":315.415,"body":"the application, to understand"},{"startTime":311.678,"endTime":315.415,"body":"how this stack is going to be used"},{"startTime":316.115,"endTime":319.018,"body":"and we can actually look"},{"startTime":316.115,"endTime":319.018,"body":"into the available materials."},{"startTime":319.652,"endTime":323.022,"body":"We can we can have a look at the designs"},{"startTime":319.652,"endTime":323.022,"body":"and we can come up with the proposal,"},{"startTime":323.323,"endTime":326.125,"body":"which we feel confident in saying, yes,"},{"startTime":326.392,"endTime":330.029,"body":"this stack is going to survive"},{"startTime":326.392,"endTime":330.029,"body":"the 25,000 hour request."},{"startTime":330.763,"endTime":333.566,"body":"And of course, it is"},{"startTime":330.763,"endTime":333.566,"body":"not just the design of the stack."},{"startTime":333.566,"endTime":336.836,"body":"We also have a lab full of test beds."},{"startTime":337.603,"endTime":342.575,"body":"We have methodologies to to do"},{"startTime":337.603,"endTime":342.575,"body":"what we call accelerate the stress test."},{"startTime":342.575,"endTime":346.245,"body":"And you're never going to test the stack"},{"startTime":342.575,"endTime":346.245,"body":"for 25000 hours on the test bed."},{"startTime":346.646,"endTime":348.715,"body":"But you have to accelerate this."},{"startTime":348.715,"endTime":352.118,"body":"You have to squeeze this into a few days,"},{"startTime":348.715,"endTime":352.118,"body":"a few weeks of testing."},{"startTime":352.652,"endTime":356.356,"body":"And that takes a lot of experience"},{"startTime":352.652,"endTime":356.356,"body":"and experienced test engineers"},{"startTime":356.723,"endTime":361.894,"body":"to understand how to translate"},{"startTime":356.723,"endTime":361.894,"body":"25000 hours of operation on the highway"},{"startTime":362.395,"endTime":367.166,"body":"into a few weeks of testing on the"},{"startTime":362.395,"endTime":367.166,"body":"test bed and have these these"},{"startTime":368.601,"endTime":370.103,"body":"accelerated stress tests,"},{"startTime":370.103,"endTime":372.805,"body":"we can translate real world operation"},{"startTime":373.172,"endTime":376.642,"body":"into something"},{"startTime":373.172,"endTime":376.642,"body":"we can execute on on a test bed."},{"startTime":377.51,"endTime":382.482,"body":"And so it's not just designing to meet"},{"startTime":377.51,"endTime":382.482,"body":"25,000 hours"},{"startTime":382.482,"endTime":387.286,"body":"is also being able to provide confidence"},{"startTime":382.482,"endTime":387.286,"body":"to the customer that the stack we designed"},{"startTime":387.387,"endTime":391.19,"body":"is actually going to be able"},{"startTime":387.387,"endTime":391.19,"body":"to meet these very ambitious requirements."},{"startTime":391.924,"endTime":395.228,"body":"I mean, 25,000 hours is still quite"},{"startTime":391.924,"endTime":395.228,"body":"ambitious today."},{"startTime":395.828,"endTime":398.564,"body":"It's not an easy task to achieve,"},{"startTime":395.828,"endTime":398.564,"body":"but it's achievable."},{"startTime":399.132,"endTime":399.966,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":400.066,"endTime":403.269,"body":"So you talk a little bit about design."},{"startTime":403.269,"endTime":406.606,"body":"You talked about material, maybe."},{"startTime":406.806,"endTime":409.175,"body":"I assume with that comes a certain cost."},{"startTime":409.709,"endTime":411.544,"body":"How how big is the tradeoff?"},{"startTime":411.544,"endTime":415.815,"body":"If I want to get let's say let's use this"},{"startTime":411.544,"endTime":415.815,"body":"20 to 25000, is the tradeoff"},{"startTime":417.216,"endTime":421.287,"body":"less on the design side,"},{"startTime":417.216,"endTime":421.287,"body":"but more on using different materials?"},{"startTime":421.32,"endTime":422.054,"body":"Is it"},{"startTime":423.055,"endTime":424.157,"body":"is it"},{"startTime":424.157,"endTime":429.362,"body":"it's both design material and cost goes up"},{"startTime":424.157,"endTime":429.362,"body":"or how do we look at that"},{"startTime":429.362,"endTime":432.765,"body":"depending on again, for priority,"},{"startTime":429.362,"endTime":432.765,"body":"looking at operation,"},{"startTime":432.765,"endTime":436.469,"body":"not not efficiency,"},{"startTime":432.765,"endTime":436.469,"body":"not whatever x kilowatts per liter."},{"startTime":436.836,"endTime":437.87,"body":"Forget that for a moment."},{"startTime":437.87,"endTime":442.675,"body":"But getting to the getting to the"},{"startTime":437.87,"endTime":442.675,"body":"the durability to the time."},{"startTime":442.675,"endTime":442.875,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":442.875,"endTime":446.479,"body":"The hours, what what is the main tradeoffs"},{"startTime":442.875,"endTime":446.479,"body":"I have to look at there."},{"startTime":447.513,"endTime":449.081,"body":"I mean, it's it's"},{"startTime":449.315,"endTime":452.652,"body":"you're going to start by looking into"},{"startTime":449.315,"endTime":452.652,"body":"which kind of materials you want to buy"},{"startTime":452.752,"endTime":456.155,"body":"in your stack, catalyst coated membranes,"},{"startTime":452.752,"endTime":456.155,"body":"gas diffusion layers, bipolar plate"},{"startTime":457.557,"endTime":458.524,"body":"materials."},{"startTime":458.524,"endTime":462.495,"body":"So this already has a very, very,"},{"startTime":458.524,"endTime":462.495,"body":"very important impact on the lifespan"},{"startTime":462.495,"endTime":464.73,"body":"you're going to see in your stack."},{"startTime":465.631,"endTime":469.869,"body":"And since since we custom engineer stacks,"},{"startTime":465.631,"endTime":469.869,"body":"we of course, we can pick"},{"startTime":469.869,"endTime":473.406,"body":"and choose different technology"},{"startTime":469.869,"endTime":473.406,"body":"is different materials in the market."},{"startTime":474.006,"endTime":477.944,"body":"So we're not we don't we haven't invested"},{"startTime":474.006,"endTime":477.944,"body":"into a manufacturing facility"},{"startTime":478.311,"endTime":481.38,"body":"where we cannot simply change"},{"startTime":478.311,"endTime":481.38,"body":"and and use a different membrane,"},{"startTime":481.38,"endTime":483.683,"body":"for instance,"},{"startTime":481.38,"endTime":483.683,"body":"or a different catalyst for that membrane."},{"startTime":484.116,"endTime":486.385,"body":"So we are an R\u0026D organization."},{"startTime":486.686,"endTime":489.856,"body":"We benchmarked different materials,"},{"startTime":486.686,"endTime":489.856,"body":"we see what, which which"},{"startTime":490.156,"endTime":494.026,"body":"supplier technologies are available"},{"startTime":490.156,"endTime":494.026,"body":"so we can pick and choose"},{"startTime":494.026,"endTime":497.296,"body":"the best supplier technologies"},{"startTime":494.026,"endTime":497.296,"body":"for a specific application."},{"startTime":498.13,"endTime":502.502,"body":"number one, really choosing"},{"startTime":498.13,"endTime":502.502,"body":"the right materials and then of course,"},{"startTime":502.502,"endTime":506.372,"body":"the next step is component design"},{"startTime":502.502,"endTime":506.372,"body":"and designing the complete stack."},{"startTime":506.973,"endTime":510.51,"body":"There's very, very important decisions"},{"startTime":506.973,"endTime":510.51,"body":"you have to do in the design phase,"},{"startTime":510.51,"endTime":513.779,"body":"which have a strong impact"},{"startTime":510.51,"endTime":513.779,"body":"not just on performance and efficiency,"},{"startTime":513.779,"endTime":518.251,"body":"but also the durability of your stack"},{"startTime":513.779,"endTime":518.251,"body":"and something which,"},{"startTime":518.251,"endTime":522.822,"body":"which which cannot be overestimated"},{"startTime":518.251,"endTime":522.822,"body":"is how important"},{"startTime":522.822,"endTime":527.326,"body":"this is interaction between the stack"},{"startTime":522.822,"endTime":527.326,"body":"and the fuel source system."},{"startTime":528.261,"endTime":531.163,"body":"And the good thing is"},{"startTime":528.261,"endTime":531.163,"body":"that in our organization,AVL, if you have,"},{"startTime":531.43,"endTime":535.368,"body":"we can cover stack development"},{"startTime":531.43,"endTime":535.368,"body":"as well as system integration."},{"startTime":536.168,"endTime":539.805,"body":"And so the fuel cell system"},{"startTime":536.168,"endTime":539.805,"body":"is going to operate the stack."},{"startTime":540.473,"endTime":543.743,"body":"So the operating strategy,"},{"startTime":540.473,"endTime":543.743,"body":"the operating parameters"},{"startTime":543.743,"endTime":549.015,"body":"which which which we allow the stack to be"},{"startTime":543.743,"endTime":549.015,"body":"exposed to yet have a very strong impact"},{"startTime":549.015,"endTime":551.517,"body":"on the durability"},{"startTime":549.015,"endTime":551.517,"body":"on the lifetime of the stack."},{"startTime":552.251,"endTime":555.254,"body":"So we have stack"},{"startTime":552.251,"endTime":555.254,"body":"developers, we're going to have a very,"},{"startTime":555.254,"endTime":559.058,"body":"very important discussion at the interface"},{"startTime":555.254,"endTime":559.058,"body":"between the stack and the system."},{"startTime":559.592,"endTime":563.596,"body":"We're going to tell the system people"},{"startTime":559.592,"endTime":563.596,"body":"what our stack is, is able to handle it."},{"startTime":564.363,"endTime":567.333,"body":"We're going to make sure that our stack"},{"startTime":564.363,"endTime":567.333,"body":"is not going to be exposed"},{"startTime":567.7,"endTime":571.137,"body":"to critical operating conditions"},{"startTime":567.7,"endTime":571.137,"body":"or if it has to be exposed"},{"startTime":571.137,"endTime":574.674,"body":"we're going to try to limit"},{"startTime":571.137,"endTime":574.674,"body":"the exposure time as far as possible."},{"startTime":575.007,"endTime":578.444,"body":"And the combination of a good control"},{"startTime":575.007,"endTime":578.444,"body":"strategy and good operating"},{"startTime":578.444,"endTime":582.715,"body":"strategy of the stack and a well-designed"},{"startTime":578.444,"endTime":582.715,"body":"stack, applying the right"},{"startTime":582.715,"endTime":586.152,"body":"materials is what's actually going"},{"startTime":582.715,"endTime":586.152,"body":"to make the stack survive"},{"startTime":586.185,"endTime":589.055,"body":"the 25,000 hours, even in real world."},{"startTime":589.388,"endTime":592.725,"body":"I'm driving"},{"startTime":589.388,"endTime":592.725,"body":"not just in arbitrary conditions."},{"startTime":594.493,"endTime":596.796,"body":"Well, some of"},{"startTime":594.493,"endTime":596.796,"body":"us or some people are probably listening"},{"startTime":596.796,"endTime":600.433,"body":"to this saying, here we go again,"},{"startTime":596.796,"endTime":600.433,"body":"software has taken over the world."},{"startTime":601.033,"endTime":605.137,"body":"Now it's all saying fuel cell stack"},{"startTime":601.033,"endTime":605.137,"body":"software again controls everything."},{"startTime":606.172,"endTime":609.108,"body":"Clearly, what we do in in Canada, right."},{"startTime":609.108,"endTime":611.21,"body":"With with with the group"},{"startTime":609.108,"endTime":611.21,"body":"that you're working with"},{"startTime":611.41,"endTime":613.746,"body":"is the development of the stack."},{"startTime":613.746,"endTime":616.616,"body":"But the key component"},{"startTime":613.746,"endTime":616.616,"body":"that you're bringing out is that, yes,"},{"startTime":616.749,"endTime":620.353,"body":"it's software that controls and makes"},{"startTime":616.749,"endTime":620.353,"body":"sure it runs in its optimal"},{"startTime":621.053,"endTime":623.623,"body":"operation range and again, allows you"},{"startTime":623.623,"endTime":626.325,"body":"to meet certain conditions"},{"startTime":623.623,"endTime":626.325,"body":"that the customer wants."},{"startTime":626.792,"endTime":631.897,"body":"So I guess how much more do you see"},{"startTime":626.792,"endTime":631.897,"body":"software playing a role in"},{"startTime":632.264,"endTime":634.9,"body":"in improving efficiency and improving"},{"startTime":636.135,"endTime":637.937,"body":"durability and"},{"startTime":637.937,"endTime":641.907,"body":"improving the applications"},{"startTime":637.937,"endTime":641.907,"body":"in different areas of a fuel cell"},{"startTime":641.907,"endTime":646.245,"body":"stack"},{"startTime":641.907,"endTime":646.245,"body":"or of a fuel cell stack based power plant?"},{"startTime":646.278,"endTime":649.749,"body":"You see software sort of already playing."},{"startTime":649.749,"endTime":654.286,"body":"It's it's it's part"},{"startTime":649.749,"endTime":654.286,"body":"as it will in the future of will software"},{"startTime":654.286,"endTime":658.724,"body":"just like it is in in vehicles"},{"startTime":654.286,"endTime":658.724,"body":"play even a bigger role going forward."},{"startTime":659.625,"endTime":662.928,"body":"I mean the stack itself"},{"startTime":659.625,"endTime":662.928,"body":"it's an interesting animal because"},{"startTime":662.928,"endTime":667.033,"body":"you don't have any active components"},{"startTime":662.928,"endTime":667.033,"body":"in the stack who's completely passive."},{"startTime":667.667,"endTime":673.339,"body":"So you you have to have compressors,"},{"startTime":667.667,"endTime":673.339,"body":"humidifiers, heat exchangers, making sure"},{"startTime":673.339,"endTime":678.277,"body":"that the stack has can be operated"},{"startTime":673.339,"endTime":678.277,"body":"as safely and efficiently as possible."},{"startTime":678.678,"endTime":681.547,"body":"So the control system"},{"startTime":678.678,"endTime":681.547,"body":"of the fuel cell system"},{"startTime":681.914,"endTime":684.65,"body":"and even the control system of the vehicle"},{"startTime":681.914,"endTime":684.65,"body":"are going to create"},{"startTime":684.65,"endTime":686.585,"body":"a very, very important role"},{"startTime":686.585,"endTime":691.524,"body":"in making sure that the stack operates"},{"startTime":686.585,"endTime":691.524,"body":"as as as it's supposed to operate."},{"startTime":692.291,"endTime":694.994,"body":"And this is not just true"},{"startTime":692.291,"endTime":694.994,"body":"in normal operating conditions,"},{"startTime":694.994,"endTime":699.131,"body":"but in particularly also when when you"},{"startTime":694.994,"endTime":699.131,"body":"when you want you to turn on the stack,"},{"startTime":699.298,"endTime":702.334,"body":"maybe it's frozen, for instance,"},{"startTime":699.298,"endTime":702.334,"body":"after a cold winter night."},{"startTime":702.735,"endTime":705.337,"body":"And you have to decide"},{"startTime":702.735,"endTime":705.337,"body":"how is how's my strategy"},{"startTime":706.072,"endTime":710.009,"body":"for unfreezing the stack"},{"startTime":706.072,"endTime":710.009,"body":"and what was my strategy"},{"startTime":710.009,"endTime":713.179,"body":"when to have a big truck fully loaded"},{"startTime":710.009,"endTime":713.179,"body":"going up a hill, for instance?"},{"startTime":713.212,"endTime":715.715,"body":"Yeah, I'm going to make sure that that"},{"startTime":716.716,"endTime":717.216,"body":"the stack"},{"startTime":717.216,"endTime":719.819,"body":"is going to provide the performance I need"},{"startTime":720.486,"endTime":723.856,"body":"without compromising the durability which."},{"startTime":723.856,"endTime":726.158,"body":"Which I still want to have from my stack."},{"startTime":726.726,"endTime":729.361,"body":"So as I mentioned before, this,"},{"startTime":726.726,"endTime":729.361,"body":"this is cooperation"},{"startTime":729.361,"endTime":732.465,"body":"between the control system guys and us."},{"startTime":732.465,"endTime":736.902,"body":"As I said, guys is very, very crucial"},{"startTime":732.465,"endTime":736.902,"body":"in making sure that the stack"},{"startTime":737.236,"endTime":741.24,"body":"is going to survive and perform"},{"startTime":737.236,"endTime":741.24,"body":"as as it's supposed to perform."},{"startTime":742.041,"endTime":745.01,"body":"In particular,"},{"startTime":742.041,"endTime":745.01,"body":"if you also have to include a certain"},{"startTime":745.478,"endTime":748.414,"body":"element of battery capacity"},{"startTime":745.478,"endTime":748.414,"body":"in your vehicle."},{"startTime":748.481,"endTime":750.483,"body":"Yeah. So you have different choices."},{"startTime":751.217,"endTime":755.121,"body":"You have a certain level of,"},{"startTime":751.217,"endTime":755.121,"body":"of, of flexibility."},{"startTime":755.121,"endTime":757.757,"body":"And if you have a clever control strategy,"},{"startTime":758.357,"endTime":761.16,"body":"you can make sure that the stack survives"},{"startTime":758.357,"endTime":761.16,"body":"much longer"},{"startTime":761.46,"endTime":764.396,"body":"than if you just apply brute force"},{"startTime":761.46,"endTime":764.396,"body":"and try to squeeze out"},{"startTime":764.396,"endTime":767.6,"body":"as much power as possible"},{"startTime":764.396,"endTime":767.6,"body":"and then is surprised"},{"startTime":767.666,"endTime":770.836,"body":"when the stack those doesn't"},{"startTime":767.666,"endTime":770.836,"body":"meet the durability requirements."},{"startTime":772.138,"endTime":773.205,"body":"So software, after all,"},{"startTime":773.205,"endTime":775.908,"body":"again is is in control here as well."},{"startTime":776.308,"endTime":779.812,"body":"Let's talk a little bit"},{"startTime":776.308,"endTime":779.812,"body":"maybe about something that over the last"},{"startTime":779.812,"endTime":782.381,"body":"the game, AVL is now 75 years old"},{"startTime":783.482,"endTime":787.386,"body":"or going on 75 years and continuing."},{"startTime":787.753,"endTime":791.09,"body":"Much of that time was spent in diesel"},{"startTime":787.753,"endTime":791.09,"body":"and gasoline engines"},{"startTime":791.724,"endTime":795.194,"body":"with the last 20 years getting into EVs"},{"startTime":795.194,"endTime":797.897,"body":"with battery development"},{"startTime":795.194,"endTime":797.897,"body":"inverters, lots of different things"},{"startTime":798.297,"endTime":802.268,"body":"over the last 5 to 10 years,"},{"startTime":798.297,"endTime":802.268,"body":"heavily into fuel cell stacks as well."},{"startTime":802.268,"endTime":807.106,"body":"But internal combustion engines"},{"startTime":802.268,"endTime":807.106,"body":"or diesel engines and now also batteries."},{"startTime":807.64,"endTime":810.476,"body":"A big play of software"},{"startTime":807.64,"endTime":810.476,"body":"is also diagnostics."},{"startTime":810.476,"endTime":810.676,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":810.676,"endTime":814.914,"body":"Making sure that the engine runs properly,"},{"startTime":810.676,"endTime":814.914,"body":"that we have the capability"},{"startTime":814.914,"endTime":819.051,"body":"of diagnosing issues, but also prognosis"},{"startTime":814.914,"endTime":819.051,"body":"so that we can look forward."},{"startTime":819.051,"endTime":821.253,"body":"Hey, this is something about value"},{"startTime":819.051,"endTime":821.253,"body":"we see here."},{"startTime":821.62,"endTime":824.356,"body":"We use our data intelligence capabilities"},{"startTime":821.62,"endTime":824.356,"body":"to predict"},{"startTime":824.356,"endTime":828.093,"body":"something again,"},{"startTime":824.356,"endTime":828.093,"body":"both in in engines and batteries."},{"startTime":828.46,"endTime":829.161,"body":"Tell me a little bit"},{"startTime":829.161,"endTime":833.299,"body":"what is what how does this play into"},{"startTime":829.161,"endTime":833.299,"body":"into the stack, into the fuel cell stack?"},{"startTime":833.299,"endTime":836.836,"body":"Because you said before,"},{"startTime":833.299,"endTime":836.836,"body":"is it really a passive device"},{"startTime":837.369,"endTime":840.005,"body":"or are we not doing any diagnostics then?"},{"startTime":840.005,"endTime":840.573,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":840.639,"endTime":844.076,"body":"So so we have to distinguish"},{"startTime":840.639,"endTime":844.076,"body":"between between what we do in the"},{"startTime":844.076,"endTime":848.247,"body":"in the research and development phase"},{"startTime":844.076,"endTime":848.247,"body":"and what we do in the actual application."},{"startTime":848.247,"endTime":850.115,"body":"So when the stack is ambiguous,"},{"startTime":850.115,"endTime":854.086,"body":"so in research and development,"},{"startTime":850.115,"endTime":854.086,"body":"we have a lot of diagnostic capabilities,"},{"startTime":855.287,"endTime":855.955,"body":"which of course"},{"startTime":855.955,"endTime":859.291,"body":"we also need to understand"},{"startTime":855.955,"endTime":859.291,"body":"what's going on with our prototype stacks."},{"startTime":859.725,"endTime":862.194,"body":"Prototype stack is expensive."},{"startTime":862.194,"endTime":865.097,"body":"You don't want to damage it."},{"startTime":862.194,"endTime":865.097,"body":"You want to understand what's going on."},{"startTime":865.097,"endTime":868.2,"body":"You want to extract as much information"},{"startTime":865.097,"endTime":868.2,"body":"as possible."},{"startTime":868.234,"endTime":868.634,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":868.901,"endTime":874.039,"body":"So we have, you know, traditional tools"},{"startTime":868.901,"endTime":874.039,"body":"like like cell voltage monitoring systems"},{"startTime":874.34,"endTime":878.41,"body":"which allow us to to understand"},{"startTime":874.34,"endTime":878.41,"body":"what each specific cell"},{"startTime":878.577,"endTime":882.381,"body":"during a test run is experiencing."},{"startTime":882.381,"endTime":887.019,"body":"We also have advanced tools"},{"startTime":882.381,"endTime":887.019,"body":"like like I'm looking into segmented cells"},{"startTime":887.019,"endTime":890.756,"body":"which which indicate current density"},{"startTime":887.019,"endTime":890.756,"body":"distribution across the whole"},{"startTime":890.99,"endTime":893.392,"body":"area of active area of of the stack,"},{"startTime":893.926,"endTime":897.429,"body":"which indicates"},{"startTime":893.926,"endTime":897.429,"body":"if the stack is uniformly operated"},{"startTime":897.429,"endTime":901.634,"body":"or if you have certain areas in your"},{"startTime":897.429,"endTime":901.634,"body":"in your stack where you have,"},{"startTime":901.634,"endTime":905.504,"body":"I don't know, significantly higher"},{"startTime":901.634,"endTime":905.504,"body":"or significantly lower current densities,"},{"startTime":905.871,"endTime":909.308,"body":"which provides, of course, important"},{"startTime":905.871,"endTime":909.308,"body":"input to the stack designers."},{"startTime":909.341,"endTime":913.379,"body":"Do we have stuff like Impedance"},{"startTime":909.341,"endTime":913.379,"body":"Spectroscopy, for instance,"},{"startTime":913.379,"endTime":917.95,"body":"which is a very interesting tool in"},{"startTime":913.379,"endTime":917.95,"body":"particularly low for single cell analysis"},{"startTime":918.317,"endTime":922.288,"body":"where we can understand what's happening"},{"startTime":918.317,"endTime":922.288,"body":"on the electrochemical level."},{"startTime":922.755,"endTime":925.524,"body":"We can see how stuff like like membrane"},{"startTime":925.524,"endTime":929.295,"body":"dehydration,"},{"startTime":925.524,"endTime":929.295,"body":"for instance, changes the performance."},{"startTime":929.628,"endTime":933.732,"body":"So all of this is helping us"},{"startTime":929.628,"endTime":933.732,"body":"in understanding what's going on"},{"startTime":933.732,"endTime":935.234,"body":"with our prototypes"},{"startTime":935.234,"endTime":939.772,"body":"and of course, providing inputs"},{"startTime":935.234,"endTime":939.772,"body":"in a feedback loop to the stack."},{"startTime":939.772,"endTime":944.41,"body":"Design is of course always coupled"},{"startTime":939.772,"endTime":944.41,"body":"with modeling and simulation."},{"startTime":944.91,"endTime":946.879,"body":"That's also a very important aspect."},{"startTime":946.879,"endTime":950.683,"body":"So it's really trying to close the loop"},{"startTime":946.879,"endTime":950.683,"body":"between the stack design"},{"startTime":950.683,"endTime":952.151,"body":"or component level design,"},{"startTime":953.485,"endTime":956.155,"body":"building"},{"startTime":953.485,"endTime":956.155,"body":"testing prototypes on the test bed"},{"startTime":956.388,"endTime":960.526,"body":"and feeding this back into the simulation,"},{"startTime":956.388,"endTime":960.526,"body":"which again then supports us in"},{"startTime":960.726,"endTime":963.462,"body":"improving, let's say,"},{"startTime":960.726,"endTime":963.462,"body":"the design of our bipolar played"},{"startTime":964.563,"endTime":966.865,"body":"or let's see I don't know certain certain"},{"startTime":966.865,"endTime":969.768,"body":"feature of of of of the stack."},{"startTime":969.768,"endTime":973.272,"body":"So in R\u0026D"},{"startTime":969.768,"endTime":973.272,"body":"a lot of a lot of diagnostic tools,"},{"startTime":973.272,"endTime":978.043,"body":"a lot of capabilities,"},{"startTime":973.272,"endTime":978.043,"body":"that's one side of the story."},{"startTime":978.043,"endTime":978.644,"body":"On the other hand,"},{"startTime":978.644,"endTime":983.482,"body":"you're going to have a stack at some point"},{"startTime":978.644,"endTime":983.482,"body":"operated in an actual vehicle."},{"startTime":984.016,"endTime":986.452,"body":"And also are you have to try to understand"},{"startTime":987.519,"endTime":991.59,"body":"which diagnostic capabilities"},{"startTime":987.519,"endTime":991.59,"body":"do you actually need in your vehicle."},{"startTime":991.59,"endTime":992.057,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":992.324,"endTime":996.695,"body":"And what we've seen"},{"startTime":992.324,"endTime":996.695,"body":"is that traditionally few years ago,"},{"startTime":996.695,"endTime":1000.032,"body":"there was a lot of still"},{"startTime":996.695,"endTime":1000.032,"body":"a lot of diagnostic tools directly built"},{"startTime":1000.032,"endTime":1004.269,"body":"into the stack cell voltage monitoring"},{"startTime":1000.032,"endTime":1004.269,"body":"systems, for instance, which is quite"},{"startTime":1004.269,"endTime":1008.874,"body":"an expensive way of of of understanding"},{"startTime":1004.269,"endTime":1008.874,"body":"what's going on your stack."},{"startTime":1008.874,"endTime":1012.511,"body":"But it provides"},{"startTime":1008.874,"endTime":1012.511,"body":"a lot of value, you know, as we're now"},{"startTime":1013.545,"endTime":1014.146,"body":"slowly"},{"startTime":1014.146,"endTime":1017.683,"body":"going into the direction"},{"startTime":1014.146,"endTime":1017.683,"body":"of mass production, you can see that"},{"startTime":1017.683,"endTime":1022.588,"body":"of course companies are trying to reduce"},{"startTime":1017.683,"endTime":1022.588,"body":"the level of of diagnostic capabilities"},{"startTime":1022.588,"endTime":1024.857,"body":"built into their vehicles"},{"startTime":1022.588,"endTime":1024.857,"body":"to make them cheaper."},{"startTime":1025.624,"endTime":1028.227,"body":"But this is only possible"},{"startTime":1025.624,"endTime":1028.227,"body":"if you are confident"},{"startTime":1029.361,"endTime":1032.965,"body":"in the stack, in the stack design"},{"startTime":1029.361,"endTime":1032.965,"body":"and the quality of the materials"},{"startTime":1032.965,"endTime":1036.301,"body":"going into the stack,"},{"startTime":1032.965,"endTime":1036.301,"body":"which of course is again, something"},{"startTime":1036.301,"endTime":1040.305,"body":"which to a certain degree is already going"},{"startTime":1036.301,"endTime":1040.305,"body":"to be decided in the R\u0026D phase"},{"startTime":1040.339,"endTime":1043.642,"body":"of when you select"},{"startTime":1040.339,"endTime":1043.642,"body":"which which areas you want to call."},{"startTime":1044.109,"endTime":1047.046,"body":"And in the validation"},{"startTime":1044.109,"endTime":1047.046,"body":"we do in a lab built."},{"startTime":1047.546,"endTime":1050.182,"body":"So when we develop a stack prototype"},{"startTime":1050.916,"endTime":1054.853,"body":"to hold validation experiments"},{"startTime":1050.916,"endTime":1054.853,"body":"with validation, testing prototypes"},{"startTime":1054.853,"endTime":1058.624,"body":"in our lab in realistic"},{"startTime":1054.853,"endTime":1058.624,"body":"operating conditions, making a free"},{"startTime":1058.624,"endTime":1062.761,"body":"start up testing, for instance, again"},{"startTime":1058.624,"endTime":1062.761,"body":"and again, that all of this"},{"startTime":1062.761,"endTime":1066.298,"body":"contributes to the level of confidence"},{"startTime":1062.761,"endTime":1066.298,"body":"we have in our products,"},{"startTime":1066.799,"endTime":1070.869,"body":"which will eventually allow our customers"},{"startTime":1066.799,"endTime":1070.869,"body":"to reduce the level of"},{"startTime":1070.869,"endTime":1075.407,"body":"of expensive diagnostic capabilities"},{"startTime":1070.869,"endTime":1075.407,"body":"they need in the vehicle."},{"startTime":1075.407,"endTime":1081.246,"body":"So but that's a that's a gradual"},{"startTime":1075.407,"endTime":1081.246,"body":"transition and it's a genuine transition."},{"startTime":1081.246,"endTime":1085.751,"body":"We're seeing in a lot of aspects"},{"startTime":1081.246,"endTime":1085.751,"body":"of fuel cell design and the availability"},{"startTime":1085.751,"endTime":1090.022,"body":"of of new materials, for instance,"},{"startTime":1085.751,"endTime":1090.022,"body":"or the maturity of the design."},{"startTime":1090.055,"endTime":1093.492,"body":"So you can see that a few years ago"},{"startTime":1093.492,"endTime":1097.262,"body":"we were still trying to have"},{"startTime":1093.492,"endTime":1097.262,"body":"a few hundred stacks, maybe"},{"startTime":1098.397,"endTime":1101.9,"body":"manufactured"},{"startTime":1098.397,"endTime":1101.9,"body":"by hand, assembled by hand, happy"},{"startTime":1101.9,"endTime":1105.804,"body":"if they actually work, that we are now,"},{"startTime":1101.9,"endTime":1105.804,"body":"we see customers say, okay,"},{"startTime":1105.804,"endTime":1108.941,"body":"I want to have a few 10,000 units"},{"startTime":1105.804,"endTime":1108.941,"body":"next year."},{"startTime":1108.941,"endTime":1110.676,"body":"I want to have a few hundred"},{"startTime":1108.941,"endTime":1110.676,"body":"thousand units."},{"startTime":1110.676,"endTime":1114.546,"body":"And a few years from now,"},{"startTime":1110.676,"endTime":1114.546,"body":"if they're thinking different dimension,"},{"startTime":1115.114,"endTime":1117.95,"body":"which also is an input for us because"},{"startTime":1119.017,"endTime":1121.12,"body":"it means that"},{"startTime":1119.017,"endTime":1121.12,"body":"we we're not just going to look into stuff"},{"startTime":1121.12,"endTime":1125.524,"body":"like, like performance and robustness,"},{"startTime":1121.12,"endTime":1125.524,"body":"but we're also going to bring production"},{"startTime":1125.524,"endTime":1129.261,"body":"engineering engineers into the projects"},{"startTime":1125.524,"endTime":1129.261,"body":"because our engineers are"},{"startTime":1130.329,"endTime":1134.299,"body":"defining target costs,"},{"startTime":1130.329,"endTime":1134.299,"body":"really trying to not just make the best"},{"startTime":1134.299,"endTime":1138.137,"body":"possible stack, but make the stack easy"},{"startTime":1134.299,"endTime":1138.137,"body":"to assembly efficient to us."},{"startTime":1138.137,"endTime":1142.774,"body":"And we're making sure"},{"startTime":1138.137,"endTime":1142.774,"body":"that the quality can be easily checked."},{"startTime":1142.774,"endTime":1146.411,"body":"So these are aspects which are completely"},{"startTime":1142.774,"endTime":1146.411,"body":"normal in automotive industry,"},{"startTime":1147.079,"endTime":1148.447,"body":"but to a certain degree"},{"startTime":1148.447,"endTime":1152.351,"body":"they still have to be translated"},{"startTime":1148.447,"endTime":1152.351,"body":"and implemented in fuel cell industry."},{"startTime":1152.351,"endTime":1156.889,"body":"And it's it's very it's very interesting"},{"startTime":1152.351,"endTime":1156.889,"body":"to be part of this transformation."},{"startTime":1158.557,"endTime":1160.559,"body":"And for me, this this this"},{"startTime":1160.692,"endTime":1165.664,"body":"whole transformation is really achieved"},{"startTime":1160.692,"endTime":1165.664,"body":"in the end to have cost effective stacks"},{"startTime":1165.998,"endTime":1169.568,"body":"produced in large numbers"},{"startTime":1165.998,"endTime":1169.568,"body":"and really ready to to"},{"startTime":1170.636,"endTime":1174.173,"body":"be operated in large fleets,"},{"startTime":1170.636,"endTime":1174.173,"body":"whether it's commercial vehicles,"},{"startTime":1174.439,"endTime":1178.677,"body":"whether it's in maritime applications, for"},{"startTime":1174.439,"endTime":1178.677,"body":"instance, or in stationary applications."},{"startTime":1179.444,"endTime":1182.915,"body":"There's a lot of automotive knowhow"},{"startTime":1179.444,"endTime":1182.915,"body":"which we can transfer"},{"startTime":1182.915,"endTime":1184.383,"body":"into the fuel cell industry."},{"startTime":1184.383,"endTime":1187.386,"body":"This this can be a very significant"},{"startTime":1184.383,"endTime":1187.386,"body":"contribution."},{"startTime":1187.386,"endTime":1190.956,"body":"Also, we as AVL can"},{"startTime":1187.386,"endTime":1190.956,"body":"bring into fuel cell industry"},{"startTime":1191.49,"endTime":1194.059,"body":"in terms of supporting this this ramp up"},{"startTime":1195.06,"endTime":1198.297,"body":"of of of the industry"},{"startTime":1198.297,"endTime":1198.664,"body":"and good."},{"startTime":1198.664,"endTime":1200.766,"body":"That really ties directly"},{"startTime":1198.664,"endTime":1200.766,"body":"into my last question"},{"startTime":1200.766,"endTime":1203.769,"body":"that I heard is from from"},{"startTime":1200.766,"endTime":1203.769,"body":"from you from a business development"},{"startTime":1203.769,"endTime":1208.14,"body":"point of view, what have you seen over"},{"startTime":1203.769,"endTime":1208.14,"body":"the last 2 to 3 years change?"},{"startTime":1208.14,"endTime":1209.708,"body":"And I think you just explained it right."},{"startTime":1209.708,"endTime":1212.978,"body":"We were now we're now going to a point,"},{"startTime":1209.708,"endTime":1212.978,"body":"not anymore"},{"startTime":1213.545,"endTime":1215.614,"body":"laboratory or can we do it"},{"startTime":1215.614,"endTime":1219.885,"body":"or feasibility we're going now into okay,"},{"startTime":1215.614,"endTime":1219.885,"body":"let's take this well let's make it"},{"startTime":1219.885,"endTime":1224.456,"body":"manufacturable, let's make it scalable,"},{"startTime":1219.885,"endTime":1224.456,"body":"right at scale, at quality, etc.. So."},{"startTime":1224.823,"endTime":1228.56,"body":"I guess with that already and similar,"},{"startTime":1224.823,"endTime":1228.56,"body":"let me add an add on question"},{"startTime":1228.56,"endTime":1230.329,"body":"to that as a last question."},{"startTime":1230.329,"endTime":1232.698,"body":"What do you see that happening"},{"startTime":1230.329,"endTime":1232.698,"body":"over the next two years?"},{"startTime":1232.998,"endTime":1237.236,"body":"You see additional changes, relates"},{"startTime":1232.998,"endTime":1237.236,"body":"to what people come to you and say, Hey,"},{"startTime":1237.703,"endTime":1239.605,"body":"we need help with this now."},{"startTime":1237.703,"endTime":1239.605,"body":"What do you see?"},{"startTime":1239.605,"endTime":1241.373,"body":"This is now we're at now."},{"startTime":1241.373,"endTime":1243.575,"body":"Now we're where we're at now."},{"startTime":1241.373,"endTime":1243.575,"body":"We're just going to continue."},{"startTime":1243.575,"endTime":1247.646,"body":"It's just going to be more"},{"startTime":1243.575,"endTime":1247.646,"body":"because fuel cell and fuel cell stacks"},{"startTime":1247.646,"endTime":1251.984,"body":"as a result of it becoming more prevalent"},{"startTime":1247.646,"endTime":1251.984,"body":"in the in the mobility space"},{"startTime":1251.984,"endTime":1257.222,"body":"or what do you see from a customer demand"},{"startTime":1251.984,"endTime":1257.222,"body":"that we can then suffice that AVL"},{"startTime":1257.756,"endTime":1260.425,"body":"you see over the next two or three years?"},{"startTime":1260.425,"endTime":1264.997,"body":"I mean, first of all, it was still in a"},{"startTime":1260.425,"endTime":1264.997,"body":"in a phase where, where we as"},{"startTime":1264.997,"endTime":1269.301,"body":"AVL, we, we,"},{"startTime":1264.997,"endTime":1269.301,"body":"we see a real way of getting a"},{"startTime":1270.402,"endTime":1271.236,"body":"request from a"},{"startTime":1271.236,"endTime":1275.107,"body":"lot of different customers,"},{"startTime":1271.236,"endTime":1275.107,"body":"which are not typical AVL customers."},{"startTime":1275.107,"endTime":1275.507,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1275.574,"endTime":1279.244,"body":"So non-automotive customers"},{"startTime":1275.574,"endTime":1279.244,"body":"working in aviation"},{"startTime":1279.244,"endTime":1283.181,"body":"applications, maritime applications,"},{"startTime":1279.244,"endTime":1283.181,"body":"trains, for instance."},{"startTime":1283.181,"endTime":1283.649,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1284.349,"endTime":1287.185,"body":"So it's interesting for us"},{"startTime":1284.349,"endTime":1287.185,"body":"to work with these customers"},{"startTime":1287.185,"endTime":1289.554,"body":"and to see"},{"startTime":1287.185,"endTime":1289.554,"body":"which kind of requirements they have."},{"startTime":1290.255,"endTime":1293.792,"body":"and of course some of these requirements"},{"startTime":1290.255,"endTime":1293.792,"body":"are quite similar, whereas"},{"startTime":1294.393,"endTime":1297.095,"body":"some industries have very,"},{"startTime":1294.393,"endTime":1297.095,"body":"very specific requirements"},{"startTime":1297.596,"endTime":1302.501,"body":"which really have a fundamental impact"},{"startTime":1297.596,"endTime":1302.501,"body":"on how we have the design stacks,"},{"startTime":1303.335,"endTime":1306.338,"body":"which materials we can use"},{"startTime":1303.335,"endTime":1306.338,"body":"and how these tanks are being operated."},{"startTime":1307.339,"endTime":1309.875,"body":"in terms of, of of maturity"},{"startTime":1311.109,"endTime":1313.979,"body":"at this point,"},{"startTime":1311.109,"endTime":1313.979,"body":"we still have a mix of some customers"},{"startTime":1313.979,"endTime":1317.182,"body":"really starting new"},{"startTime":1313.979,"endTime":1317.182,"body":"and working on the first stack"},{"startTime":1317.182,"endTime":1319.685,"body":"and planning"},{"startTime":1317.182,"endTime":1319.685,"body":"the first similar applications."},{"startTime":1320.152,"endTime":1324.656,"body":"But on the other hand, we already have"},{"startTime":1320.152,"endTime":1324.656,"body":"some customers who are a few steps ahead"},{"startTime":1325.123,"endTime":1329.027,"body":"and already thinking in bigger dimensions,"},{"startTime":1325.123,"endTime":1329.027,"body":"thinking in direction"},{"startTime":1329.094,"endTime":1332.531,"body":"of mass production and production volumes."},{"startTime":1333.065,"endTime":1335.734,"body":"So what I expect"},{"startTime":1333.065,"endTime":1335.734,"body":"is that in the next couple of years"},{"startTime":1335.734,"endTime":1337.569,"body":"we're going to"},{"startTime":1335.734,"endTime":1337.569,"body":"have more and more customers"},{"startTime":1338.77,"endTime":1341.406,"body":"going"},{"startTime":1338.77,"endTime":1341.406,"body":"in the direction of of mass production,"},{"startTime":1341.973,"endTime":1347.379,"body":"having more emphasis on on the production"},{"startTime":1341.973,"endTime":1347.379,"body":"engineering, on target costing,"},{"startTime":1347.379,"endTime":1350.482,"body":"for instance, taking a few steps"},{"startTime":1350.482,"endTime":1353.885,"body":"closer to large volume applications."},{"startTime":1354.252,"endTime":1358.957,"body":"So I think this is a trend we're going"},{"startTime":1354.252,"endTime":1358.957,"body":"to see on the one hand and the other hand."},{"startTime":1358.957,"endTime":1362.561,"body":"As I mentioned before, fuel cells"},{"startTime":1358.957,"endTime":1362.561,"body":"is going to be a topic"},{"startTime":1362.561,"endTime":1366.031,"body":"in so many different industries"},{"startTime":1362.561,"endTime":1366.031,"body":"and certain industries"},{"startTime":1366.031,"endTime":1368.8,"body":"just kind of discovered"},{"startTime":1366.031,"endTime":1368.8,"body":"fuel cells quite recently."},{"startTime":1369.301,"endTime":1372.804,"body":"And and you're"},{"startTime":1369.301,"endTime":1372.804,"body":"also going to see these companies slowly"},{"startTime":1372.804,"endTime":1377.109,"body":"but surely moving from first demo"},{"startTime":1372.804,"endTime":1377.109,"body":"applications, small volume applications"},{"startTime":1377.576,"endTime":1381.48,"body":"into the direction of"},{"startTime":1377.576,"endTime":1381.48,"body":"of really having products ready"},{"startTime":1381.48,"endTime":1384.516,"body":"to be sold into mass market."},{"startTime":1384.516,"endTime":1386.852,"body":"So this is definitely something"},{"startTime":1384.516,"endTime":1386.852,"body":"we're right"},{"startTime":1386.852,"endTime":1389.955,"body":"in the middle of"},{"startTime":1386.852,"endTime":1389.955,"body":"of this transition process."},{"startTime":1390.589,"endTime":1393.425,"body":"And you can also see"},{"startTime":1390.589,"endTime":1393.425,"body":"regional differences here."},{"startTime":1393.425,"endTime":1397.295,"body":"So so what's happening in Asia is a bit"},{"startTime":1393.425,"endTime":1397.295,"body":"different to what's happening in Europe,"},{"startTime":1397.295,"endTime":1401.166,"body":"which is again, a bit different"},{"startTime":1397.295,"endTime":1401.166,"body":"to what's happening in the U.S."},{"startTime":1401.566,"endTime":1405.07,"body":"General trends"},{"startTime":1401.566,"endTime":1405.07,"body":"is something we can see globally"},{"startTime":1405.67,"endTime":1409.741,"body":"and that's good for fuel cell industry"},{"startTime":1405.67,"endTime":1409.741,"body":"because this is a huge demand"},{"startTime":1409.741,"endTime":1413.011,"body":"for for for good, for robust for"},{"startTime":1413.011,"endTime":1415.247,"body":"for cost effective fuel cell solutions"},{"startTime":1416.081,"endTime":1418.55,"body":"for all the different applications"},{"startTime":1416.081,"endTime":1418.55,"body":"you're going to see."},{"startTime":1419.317,"endTime":1424.189,"body":"And we as AVL, we're pretty"},{"startTime":1419.317,"endTime":1424.189,"body":"well prepared to to handle these requests"},{"startTime":1424.189,"endTime":1427.426,"body":"and to provide solutions which are mature"},{"startTime":1427.926,"endTime":1430.462,"body":"and ready"},{"startTime":1427.926,"endTime":1430.462,"body":"for the use of other applications."},{"startTime":1431.83,"endTime":1432.898,"body":"Very good."},{"startTime":1432.898,"endTime":1434.566,"body":"Thank you, Simon, for your time."},{"startTime":1434.566,"endTime":1438.837,"body":"Excellent and very insightful and"},{"startTime":1434.566,"endTime":1438.837,"body":"interesting for me, for me to learn here."},{"startTime":1439.571,"endTime":1442.908,"body":"And thanks, everybody else"},{"startTime":1439.571,"endTime":1442.908,"body":"for tuning in until the next time."},{"startTime":1443.074,"endTime":1443.608,"body":"Thank you."}]}