{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":3.37,"endTime":4.337,"body":"Welcome, everyone,"},{"startTime":4.337,"endTime":7.14,"body":"to the latest podcast"},{"startTime":4.337,"endTime":7.14,"body":"edition of Reimagining Mobility."},{"startTime":7.374,"endTime":9.442,"body":"I'm here with Amy Nelson from."},{"startTime":9.442,"endTime":11.544,"body":"Amy of Fuel Cell Canada."},{"startTime":11.544,"endTime":13.313,"body":"Amy, thank you for joining me today."},{"startTime":13.313,"endTime":15.415,"body":"I appreciated"},{"startTime":15.448,"endTime":17.25,"body":"you having me. Yes."},{"startTime":17.25,"endTime":18.151,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"startTime":18.151,"endTime":21.121,"body":"I heard you've been in the fuel cell"},{"startTime":18.151,"endTime":21.121,"body":"industry for 20 years now."},{"startTime":21.788,"endTime":23.623,"body":"At least at least 20 years."},{"startTime":23.623,"endTime":25.892,"body":"See, I get even got the wrong information"},{"startTime":23.623,"endTime":25.892,"body":"that they've given me."},{"startTime":25.925,"endTime":29.462,"body":"So at least 20 years, I guess."},{"startTime":30.063,"endTime":30.497,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":30.497,"endTime":30.73,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":30.73,"endTime":33.266,"body":"To start out with, I'm wondering"},{"startTime":30.73,"endTime":33.266,"body":"why fuel cells."},{"startTime":33.466,"endTime":35.668,"body":"Well,"},{"startTime":33.466,"endTime":35.668,"body":"what is so exciting about fuel cells?"},{"startTime":39.406,"endTime":41.341,"body":"Yeah, I think when I."},{"startTime":41.341,"endTime":44.177,"body":"I was doing a master's degree"},{"startTime":41.341,"endTime":44.177,"body":"and I heard about Ballard"},{"startTime":44.244,"endTime":47.147,"body":"for the first time in the late nineties."},{"startTime":47.447,"endTime":50.683,"body":"And I think at that"},{"startTime":50.683,"endTime":57.39,"body":"time, climate was a topic"},{"startTime":50.683,"endTime":57.39,"body":"not like it is now, but it was."},{"startTime":57.39,"endTime":60.293,"body":"And I was very interested in"},{"startTime":62.962,"endTime":63.73,"body":"the kind of work"},{"startTime":63.73,"endTime":66.433,"body":"that would contribute to improving"},{"startTime":67.534,"endTime":70.17,"body":"our world the way we use energy,"},{"startTime":71.171,"endTime":73.106,"body":"the way we pollute."},{"startTime":73.106,"endTime":76.776,"body":"And so when I heard about Ballard,"},{"startTime":73.106,"endTime":76.776,"body":"I just found that very exciting."},{"startTime":77.444,"endTime":81.648,"body":"And I had been doing a degree"},{"startTime":77.444,"endTime":81.648,"body":"that touched on electrochemistry"},{"startTime":81.648,"endTime":85.351,"body":"and I thought, Wow, you know,"},{"startTime":81.648,"endTime":85.351,"body":"that is really what I want to do."},{"startTime":85.351,"endTime":90.59,"body":"I was a chemical engineer by training and"},{"startTime":85.351,"endTime":90.59,"body":"and the job opportunities"},{"startTime":90.59,"endTime":93.726,"body":"in chemical engineering"},{"startTime":90.59,"endTime":93.726,"body":"tend to really focus on oil and gas."},{"startTime":94.961,"endTime":96.696,"body":"And I wasn't sure that"},{"startTime":94.961,"endTime":96.696,"body":"that was an industry"},{"startTime":96.696,"endTime":97.864,"body":"that I wanted to contribute to."},{"startTime":97.864,"endTime":101.401,"body":"So at that time, I just got really excited"},{"startTime":97.864,"endTime":101.401,"body":"about fuel cells."},{"startTime":101.401,"endTime":102.402,"body":"And I still am."},{"startTime":102.402,"endTime":104.437,"body":"I still think"},{"startTime":105.772,"endTime":108.241,"body":"they offer a wonderful opportunity"},{"startTime":108.241,"endTime":111.111,"body":"to decarbonize a lot of"},{"startTime":113.046,"endTime":114.481,"body":"various areas of industry"},{"startTime":114.481,"endTime":117.15,"body":"and transportation. MM."},{"startTime":117.817,"endTime":121.821,"body":"With fuel cells, again,"},{"startTime":117.817,"endTime":121.821,"body":"we talk about a fuel cell and hydrogen."},{"startTime":121.821,"endTime":126.926,"body":"We're certainly focusing on a"},{"startTime":121.821,"endTime":126.926,"body":"on a completely, let's say, green economy."},{"startTime":126.926,"endTime":127.16,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":127.16,"endTime":130.396,"body":"No emissions, greenhouse gases, etc."},{"startTime":131.064,"endTime":134.4,"body":"from air from an efficiency point of view"},{"startTime":131.064,"endTime":134.4,"body":"because you're talking about."},{"startTime":134.4,"endTime":137.303,"body":"Right. And how long"},{"startTime":134.4,"endTime":137.303,"body":"you've already worked in the space."},{"startTime":137.303,"endTime":139.005,"body":"And we've certainly come a long way."},{"startTime":139.005,"endTime":143.276,"body":"Maybe shine a little light on"},{"startTime":139.005,"endTime":143.276,"body":"how far have we come from, maybe from from"},{"startTime":143.343,"endTime":148.081,"body":"an energy density point of view, from"},{"startTime":143.343,"endTime":148.081,"body":"from a stack where you were, again, 20"},{"startTime":148.081,"endTime":152.452,"body":"or maybe even 30 years"},{"startTime":148.081,"endTime":152.452,"body":"when you first started to to today."},{"startTime":152.986,"endTime":158.057,"body":"And then tell us also"},{"startTime":152.986,"endTime":158.057,"body":"how much further do you think we can go?"},{"startTime":158.057,"endTime":163.062,"body":"Yeah, from a power density point of view,"},{"startTime":158.057,"endTime":163.062,"body":"like how much power you can get"},{"startTime":163.062,"endTime":166.866,"body":"out of a certain size of package,"},{"startTime":163.062,"endTime":166.866,"body":"We've really come a long way."},{"startTime":168.001,"endTime":169.969,"body":"I think we've probably"},{"startTime":169.969,"endTime":172.839,"body":"quadrupled our density since we started"},{"startTime":174.674,"endTime":177.443,"body":"within the industry and"},{"startTime":178.178,"endTime":180.18,"body":"currently in my job at our company,"},{"startTime":180.18,"endTime":183.95,"body":"we're working on something"},{"startTime":180.18,"endTime":183.95,"body":"that makes a 50% improvement on that."},{"startTime":183.95,"endTime":186.986,"body":"Again,"},{"startTime":186.986,"endTime":190.056,"body":"I think there's still quite"},{"startTime":186.986,"endTime":190.056,"body":"a bit of improvement that we can make"},{"startTime":190.89,"endTime":193.259,"body":"in the next 5 to 10 years."},{"startTime":193.259,"endTime":197.197,"body":"On power density,"},{"startTime":193.259,"endTime":197.197,"body":"The the great thing about working on"},{"startTime":199.232,"endTime":201.901,"body":"any one particular"},{"startTime":201.901,"endTime":204.504,"body":"metric or characteristic of a fuel cell"},{"startTime":201.901,"endTime":204.504,"body":"is that"},{"startTime":206.639,"endTime":209.742,"body":"often it can be used in many ways"},{"startTime":206.639,"endTime":209.742,"body":"if we get to a point"},{"startTime":209.742,"endTime":212.478,"body":"in power density where,"},{"startTime":209.742,"endTime":212.478,"body":"you know, it's really small enough to"},{"startTime":213.546,"endTime":217.317,"body":"suit any kind of application,"},{"startTime":213.546,"endTime":217.317,"body":"we can also use those improvements"},{"startTime":217.317,"endTime":221.321,"body":"to get better efficiency,"},{"startTime":217.317,"endTime":221.321,"body":"to operate better, to get longer lifetime."},{"startTime":222.956,"endTime":225.225,"body":"So it's still really exciting work."},{"startTime":225.225,"endTime":226.693,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":226.693,"endTime":231.164,"body":"When when we talk about fuel cells,"},{"startTime":226.693,"endTime":231.164,"body":"you always have more or less"},{"startTime":231.631,"endTime":236.102,"body":"the opposite camp and says fuel cell"},{"startTime":231.631,"endTime":236.102,"body":"and hydrogen doesn't really make sense."},{"startTime":236.102,"endTime":238.438,"body":"We need to focus on batteries."},{"startTime":238.438,"endTime":240.54,"body":"I always sort of maintain I think they"},{"startTime":241.04,"endTime":243.009,"body":"they have a place"},{"startTime":241.04,"endTime":243.009,"body":"each of their own, right."},{"startTime":243.009,"endTime":244.11,"body":"They both have on"},{"startTime":245.311,"endTime":246.179,"body":"from your"},{"startTime":246.179,"endTime":249.515,"body":"point of view and maybe specifically"},{"startTime":246.179,"endTime":249.515,"body":"from that from a chemist's point of view,"},{"startTime":251.084,"endTime":254.454,"body":"you probably very well understand"},{"startTime":251.084,"endTime":254.454,"body":"the challenge is on the actual battery"},{"startTime":254.454,"endTime":255.054,"body":"cell. Right."},{"startTime":255.054,"endTime":258.591,"body":"And what we're working on now, pushing"},{"startTime":255.054,"endTime":258.591,"body":"heavily into solid state, for example,"},{"startTime":259.292,"endTime":262.562,"body":"a correspondingly"},{"startTime":259.292,"endTime":262.562,"body":"what is specifically from from a chemist"},{"startTime":262.562,"endTime":266.833,"body":"point of view"},{"startTime":262.562,"endTime":266.833,"body":"that we're looking at on the on the back."},{"startTime":267.834,"endTime":270.236,"body":"Of the fuel cell stack"},{"startTime":273.273,"endTime":275.742,"body":"from, from the electrochemistry"},{"startTime":273.273,"endTime":275.742,"body":"point of view,"},{"startTime":275.742,"endTime":280.313,"body":"yeah, we're"},{"startTime":275.742,"endTime":280.313,"body":"always looking for improved performance."},{"startTime":280.313,"endTime":283.116,"body":"That ties into what I was saying"},{"startTime":280.313,"endTime":283.116,"body":"previously with improved"},{"startTime":284.651,"endTime":290.39,"body":"performance of, of the chemical reactions"},{"startTime":284.651,"endTime":290.39,"body":"that are happening."},{"startTime":290.39,"endTime":293.393,"body":"You could always either"},{"startTime":290.39,"endTime":293.393,"body":"reduce the size of the stack"},{"startTime":293.393,"endTime":296.863,"body":"for the same power or"},{"startTime":296.863,"endTime":299.966,"body":"maybe operate at a different point"},{"startTime":296.863,"endTime":299.966,"body":"that allows you to be more efficient."},{"startTime":300.566,"endTime":304.103,"body":"So those performance"},{"startTime":300.566,"endTime":304.103,"body":"improvements are always beneficial."},{"startTime":304.504,"endTime":308.241,"body":"We're also looking,"},{"startTime":304.504,"endTime":308.241,"body":"I think, quite similarly to batteries."},{"startTime":308.241,"endTime":310.443,"body":"We're always looking for materials"},{"startTime":308.241,"endTime":310.443,"body":"that are more durable."},{"startTime":310.71,"endTime":311.544,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"startTime":311.844,"endTime":314.18,"body":"That's that's a very important"},{"startTime":314.213,"endTime":317.884,"body":"aspect of our work,"},{"startTime":314.213,"endTime":317.884,"body":"is making everything last longer"},{"startTime":321.521,"endTime":322.789,"body":"and and last"},{"startTime":322.789,"endTime":326.225,"body":"longer in different kinds of applications"},{"startTime":322.789,"endTime":326.225,"body":"under different operating conditions."},{"startTime":327.26,"endTime":330.363,"body":"And the third thing is"},{"startTime":327.26,"endTime":330.363,"body":"we're also looking for"},{"startTime":334.334,"endTime":337.27,"body":"not only durability of the stack itself,"},{"startTime":334.334,"endTime":337.27,"body":"but maybe materials"},{"startTime":337.27,"endTime":344.043,"body":"that will enable the system to be better"},{"startTime":337.27,"endTime":344.043,"body":"or cheaper or more durable itself."},{"startTime":344.043,"endTime":348.214,"body":"So the fuel cell usually has"},{"startTime":344.043,"endTime":348.214,"body":"a bunch of auxiliary components around it."},{"startTime":348.214,"endTime":353.219,"body":"So you have to feed fuel,"},{"startTime":348.214,"endTime":353.219,"body":"you have to put air into the fuel cell."},{"startTime":353.219,"endTime":354.954,"body":"You need coolant"},{"startTime":356.723,"endTime":358.958,"body":"and you need to condition"},{"startTime":356.723,"endTime":358.958,"body":"the air in particular."},{"startTime":358.991,"endTime":361.461,"body":"So anything that we can do in the stack"},{"startTime":362.495,"endTime":365.798,"body":"to make the requirements on the system"},{"startTime":362.495,"endTime":365.798,"body":"easier is also something"},{"startTime":365.932,"endTime":367.467,"body":"that we're also looking at."},{"startTime":367.467,"endTime":368.668,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":368.668,"endTime":372.271,"body":"When we talk about electric vehicles"},{"startTime":368.668,"endTime":372.271,"body":"and batteries, right now,"},{"startTime":372.705,"endTime":376.642,"body":"the big buzzword is"},{"startTime":372.705,"endTime":376.642,"body":"obviously be as efficient as you can and"},{"startTime":377.31,"endTime":380.58,"body":"from the cell all the way to the battery"},{"startTime":377.31,"endTime":380.58,"body":"and then the complete vehicle."},{"startTime":380.58,"endTime":384.083,"body":"So from the component of the subsystem"},{"startTime":380.58,"endTime":384.083,"body":"with the complete system."},{"startTime":384.751,"endTime":388.888,"body":"Is that the same in in fuel cell stack"},{"startTime":384.751,"endTime":388.888,"body":"or is there something to be said?"},{"startTime":388.888,"endTime":392.058,"body":"It's not always"},{"startTime":388.888,"endTime":392.058,"body":"about the highest efficiency,"},{"startTime":392.425,"endTime":395.762,"body":"maybe because it's also durability"},{"startTime":392.425,"endTime":395.762,"body":"and there is a tradeoff."},{"startTime":395.795,"endTime":397.397,"body":"There's cost."},{"startTime":397.397,"endTime":399.565,"body":"We clearly have that, too,"},{"startTime":397.397,"endTime":399.565,"body":"I think, in batteries,"},{"startTime":399.565,"endTime":402.835,"body":"but it's not very often or really"},{"startTime":399.565,"endTime":402.835,"body":"not at all talked about."},{"startTime":402.835,"endTime":405.438,"body":"But tell me a little bit"},{"startTime":402.835,"endTime":405.438,"body":"how it is in which fuel cell stacks."},{"startTime":406.773,"endTime":409.142,"body":"Yeah, there's always a tradeoff for sure."},{"startTime":409.142,"endTime":410.41,"body":"And it's"},{"startTime":412.712,"endTime":414.781,"body":"it depends on the customer,"},{"startTime":412.712,"endTime":414.781,"body":"on the application."},{"startTime":414.781,"endTime":417.183,"body":"What they really need."},{"startTime":417.183,"endTime":419.886,"body":"A battery is very efficient"},{"startTime":420.453,"endTime":424.557,"body":"and a fuel cell is much less efficient"},{"startTime":420.453,"endTime":424.557,"body":"compared to a battery."},{"startTime":426.058,"endTime":427.56,"body":"And to what you said"},{"startTime":427.56,"endTime":430.263,"body":"before, there's a place for both for sure."},{"startTime":430.63,"endTime":433.833,"body":"If a battery meets your needs,"},{"startTime":435.668,"endTime":438.037,"body":"that's probably what you should do."},{"startTime":438.371,"endTime":441.407,"body":"But there's also a lot of applications"},{"startTime":438.371,"endTime":441.407,"body":"where"},{"startTime":442.909,"endTime":444.977,"body":"it's a really difficult"},{"startTime":442.909,"endTime":444.977,"body":"use case for batteries"},{"startTime":444.977,"endTime":447.046,"body":"and fuel cells make a lot of sense."},{"startTime":448.414,"endTime":451.083,"body":"And yeah, sometimes efficiency"},{"startTime":451.083,"endTime":453.453,"body":"isn't really the most important criteria."},{"startTime":454.654,"endTime":456.789,"body":"Sometimes convenience as"},{"startTime":458.024,"endTime":461.527,"body":"ease of use, often"},{"startTime":458.024,"endTime":461.527,"body":"for a commercial operators,"},{"startTime":461.527,"endTime":465.431,"body":"it's total cost of operation"},{"startTime":461.527,"endTime":465.431,"body":"and efficiency plays a part in that."},{"startTime":465.431,"endTime":469.068,"body":"But it's not the whole story in that."},{"startTime":469.068,"endTime":473.372,"body":"So uptime of a commercial vehicle,"},{"startTime":469.068,"endTime":473.372,"body":"the amount of shifts that you can run,"},{"startTime":474.64,"endTime":475.374,"body":"which"},{"startTime":476.008,"endTime":478.845,"body":"speaks to refilling time"},{"startTime":476.008,"endTime":478.845,"body":"or recharging time"},{"startTime":478.845,"endTime":483.249,"body":"in the case of a battery,"},{"startTime":478.845,"endTime":483.249,"body":"there's a lot of factors at play here"},{"startTime":484.684,"endTime":490.289,"body":"and yeah, sometimes I feel cell"},{"startTime":484.684,"endTime":490.289,"body":"really makes a lot of sense."},{"startTime":490.289,"endTime":492.892,"body":"Even though it may be less efficient,"},{"startTime":490.289,"endTime":492.892,"body":"there may be"},{"startTime":493.926,"endTime":497.23,"body":"other costs or other areas"},{"startTime":493.926,"endTime":497.23,"body":"where it outperforms batteries."},{"startTime":497.997,"endTime":499.131,"body":"Interesting."},{"startTime":499.632,"endTime":502.702,"body":"With your, again,"},{"startTime":499.632,"endTime":502.702,"body":"20 plus years of experience,"},{"startTime":503.336,"endTime":505.805,"body":"tell me a little bit about what"},{"startTime":503.336,"endTime":505.805,"body":"what has changed."},{"startTime":505.805,"endTime":506.005,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":506.005,"endTime":508.908,"body":"I mean, clearly, I would assume, again,"},{"startTime":506.005,"endTime":508.908,"body":"not knowing, but I would assume"},{"startTime":509.375,"endTime":514.18,"body":"20 years ago you had a whole lot less,"},{"startTime":509.375,"endTime":514.18,"body":"I would say virtual tools or simulation"},{"startTime":514.18,"endTime":519.752,"body":"tools to develop a fuel cell stack"},{"startTime":514.18,"endTime":519.752,"body":"with the individual components within it."},{"startTime":520.419,"endTime":525.224,"body":"You already alluded you you quadrupled"},{"startTime":520.419,"endTime":525.224,"body":"or tripled the energy efficiency."},{"startTime":525.625,"endTime":530.596,"body":"But what has changed both from the"},{"startTime":525.625,"endTime":530.596,"body":"from the environment that you worked in"},{"startTime":531.597,"endTime":532.532,"body":"to today"},{"startTime":532.532,"endTime":535.735,"body":"with the tools that you're using,"},{"startTime":532.532,"endTime":535.735,"body":"maybe the approach,"},{"startTime":535.735,"endTime":538.137,"body":"anything and everything,"},{"startTime":535.735,"endTime":538.137,"body":"you shed a little bit of light on that."},{"startTime":539.171,"endTime":540.506,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"startTime":540.84,"endTime":543.943,"body":"everything you mentioned,"},{"startTime":540.84,"endTime":543.943,"body":"everything has changed in the industry."},{"startTime":544.043,"endTime":549.949,"body":"Absolutely everything from,"},{"startTime":544.043,"endTime":549.949,"body":"like you said, the working environment."},{"startTime":550.383,"endTime":552.485,"body":"When I started, it was very much,"},{"startTime":553.052,"endTime":556.622,"body":"I don't know, I felt like, you know,"},{"startTime":553.052,"endTime":556.622,"body":"a start up like a garage operation."},{"startTime":556.622,"endTime":559.892,"body":"Obviously we weren't in a garage"},{"startTime":556.622,"endTime":559.892,"body":"empowered, but everybody kind of"},{"startTime":561.394,"endTime":562.528,"body":"or multiple hats."},{"startTime":562.528,"endTime":566.165,"body":"And if you needed a tool,"},{"startTime":562.528,"endTime":566.165,"body":"you had to develop it,"},{"startTime":567.6,"endTime":568.134,"body":"that kind of thing."},{"startTime":568.134,"endTime":569.535,"body":"And that was a lot of fun too."},{"startTime":569.535,"endTime":574.941,"body":"But it's really nice now, a company"},{"startTime":569.535,"endTime":574.941,"body":"like AVL and and many of the other"},{"startTime":574.941,"endTime":577.81,"body":"people in the industry"},{"startTime":574.941,"endTime":577.81,"body":"have developed fully fledged"},{"startTime":579.045,"endTime":582.448,"body":"commercial tools"},{"startTime":579.045,"endTime":582.448,"body":"to help in the development of fuel cells."},{"startTime":582.448,"endTime":585.952,"body":"So when I need CFD"},{"startTime":585.952,"endTime":589.755,"body":"or FEA or something advanced like that,"},{"startTime":585.952,"endTime":589.755,"body":"there's a tool that will do it for me"},{"startTime":591.19,"endTime":594.226,"body":"and I"},{"startTime":594.56,"endTime":597.229,"body":"like the technology itself has developed."},{"startTime":597.229,"endTime":601.367,"body":"So catalyst technology,"},{"startTime":597.229,"endTime":601.367,"body":"membrane technology,"},{"startTime":601.801,"endTime":605.771,"body":"both in performance and durability,"},{"startTime":601.801,"endTime":605.771,"body":"have come miles and miles."},{"startTime":606.172,"endTime":609.909,"body":"It's amazing how much performance"},{"startTime":606.172,"endTime":609.909,"body":"we get out of a stack these days"},{"startTime":609.909,"endTime":615.181,"body":"and how long it will last under"},{"startTime":609.909,"endTime":615.181,"body":"a variety of conditions."},{"startTime":615.181,"endTime":618.451,"body":"Also, the supply chain for"},{"startTime":615.181,"endTime":618.451,"body":"those materials has really evolved."},{"startTime":618.851,"endTime":621.754,"body":"We used to kind of make our own."},{"startTime":621.754,"endTime":623.889,"body":"There was nowhere"},{"startTime":621.754,"endTime":623.889,"body":"to buy the stuff that you needed."},{"startTime":623.889,"endTime":628.961,"body":"Now you have choice among the suppliers"},{"startTime":623.889,"endTime":628.961,"body":"for membrane, for a catalyst"},{"startTime":628.961,"endTime":632.498,"body":"or an integrated membrane and catalyst"},{"startTime":628.961,"endTime":632.498,"body":"assembly"},{"startTime":632.498,"endTime":635.601,"body":"for plates, plate materials."},{"startTime":635.601,"endTime":636.902,"body":"You really have a lot more choice."},{"startTime":636.902,"endTime":638.07,"body":"There's a lot of"},{"startTime":639.271,"endTime":641.674,"body":"entrants into the market, into the supply"},{"startTime":639.271,"endTime":641.674,"body":"chain"},{"startTime":642.808,"endTime":645.011,"body":"is really astonishing."},{"startTime":645.011,"endTime":649.682,"body":"And another thing that's changed"},{"startTime":645.011,"endTime":649.682,"body":"is the level of interest in fuel cells."},{"startTime":650.583,"endTime":653.986,"body":"Back in the day when I worked,"},{"startTime":653.986,"endTime":657.49,"body":"you know, we were more pushing,"},{"startTime":653.986,"endTime":657.49,"body":"trying to find customers."},{"startTime":657.857,"endTime":660.459,"body":"Now customers come to us all the time."},{"startTime":660.459,"endTime":662.361,"body":"There's a lot of interest in fuel cells."},{"startTime":663.329,"endTime":665.731,"body":"There's a lot more"},{"startTime":665.798,"endTime":668.567,"body":"fuel cell developers in the market."},{"startTime":668.567,"endTime":672.004,"body":"In Vancouver alone,"},{"startTime":668.567,"endTime":672.004,"body":"there's instead of just Ballard"},{"startTime":672.038,"endTime":674.407,"body":"now there's five or six companies"},{"startTime":672.038,"endTime":674.407,"body":"operating"},{"startTime":675.741,"endTime":677.543,"body":"successfully."},{"startTime":677.543,"endTime":679.412,"body":"So the whole environment is different."},{"startTime":679.412,"endTime":681.147,"body":"It's a completely different world."},{"startTime":681.147,"endTime":683.816,"body":"Yeah, well, you can say with that."},{"startTime":683.816,"endTime":686.285,"body":"I mean, again,"},{"startTime":683.816,"endTime":686.285,"body":"you're saying customers are now coming"},{"startTime":687.086,"endTime":690.256,"body":"instead of us having to go out"},{"startTime":687.086,"endTime":690.256,"body":"or you having to go out and say, Come on,"},{"startTime":690.256,"endTime":692.291,"body":"give me fuel cell a chance."},{"startTime":692.391,"endTime":695.061,"body":"I get fuel cells,"},{"startTime":692.391,"endTime":695.061,"body":"give the hydrogen industry"},{"startTime":695.861,"endTime":698.831,"body":"a chance for the mobility space"},{"startTime":695.861,"endTime":698.831,"body":"as a as a fuel."},{"startTime":698.831,"endTime":700.399,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":700.399,"endTime":702.101,"body":"It sounds like"},{"startTime":700.399,"endTime":702.101,"body":"based on what you're saying,"},{"startTime":702.101,"endTime":704.804,"body":"what I've also heard from others is"},{"startTime":702.101,"endTime":704.804,"body":"the money is now there."},{"startTime":705.171,"endTime":708.174,"body":"are coming in"},{"startTime":705.171,"endTime":708.174,"body":"actually willing to invest in it"},{"startTime":708.174,"endTime":711.21,"body":"and asking us at AVL to develop me"},{"startTime":708.174,"endTime":711.21,"body":"something."},{"startTime":711.51,"endTime":715.381,"body":"And it's not a small little prototype"},{"startTime":711.51,"endTime":715.381,"body":"or a feasibility study."},{"startTime":715.381,"endTime":719.151,"body":"It's we're talking to the entire fuel"},{"startTime":715.381,"endTime":719.151,"body":"cell stack and ultimately"},{"startTime":719.151,"endTime":721.887,"body":"then be the power plant writers."},{"startTime":722.188,"endTime":722.521,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":722.521,"endTime":725.424,"body":"Work on some programs"},{"startTime":722.521,"endTime":725.424,"body":"right now on a global basis."},{"startTime":726.392,"endTime":726.959,"body":"Is it then?"},{"startTime":726.959,"endTime":727.893,"body":"Now is the time."},{"startTime":727.893,"endTime":732.932,"body":"We are ready now to really start deploying"},{"startTime":727.893,"endTime":732.932,"body":"these things at much larger scale"},{"startTime":732.932,"endTime":737.269,"body":"that maybe 15 years ago, ten years ago"},{"startTime":732.932,"endTime":737.269,"body":"you could see,"},{"startTime":737.737,"endTime":740.573,"body":"but you knew"},{"startTime":737.737,"endTime":740.573,"body":"what's not quite the time yet."},{"startTime":741.607,"endTime":743.642,"body":"Yeah, this time feels really different."},{"startTime":743.642,"endTime":747.113,"body":"I've lived through a couple of I would,"},{"startTime":747.813,"endTime":750.649,"body":"for lack of a better word,"},{"startTime":747.813,"endTime":750.649,"body":"hype cycles around hydrogen."},{"startTime":751.817,"endTime":754.687,"body":"Maybe this is the fourth cycle I've seen,"},{"startTime":754.687,"endTime":757.156,"body":"and this one really does feel different."},{"startTime":758.057,"endTime":760.693,"body":"There is a lot of"},{"startTime":761.026,"endTime":765.03,"body":"yeah, a lot of different customers,"},{"startTime":761.026,"endTime":765.03,"body":"a lot of different areas of industry"},{"startTime":765.564,"endTime":770.402,"body":"and transportation that are looking"},{"startTime":765.564,"endTime":770.402,"body":"at fuel cells, a lot of forward"},{"startTime":770.402,"endTime":774.707,"body":"thinking companies that are saying, okay,"},{"startTime":770.402,"endTime":774.707,"body":"we really do need to make a change now"},{"startTime":775.207,"endTime":780.579,"body":"in how we operate and and how we"},{"startTime":775.207,"endTime":780.579,"body":"what kinds of energy sources we're using"},{"startTime":782.982,"endTime":787.82,"body":"and yeah,"},{"startTime":782.982,"endTime":787.82,"body":"another big change I think that's"},{"startTime":789.688,"endTime":792.825,"body":"driven"},{"startTime":789.688,"endTime":792.825,"body":"a lot of the industry here in Vancouver"},{"startTime":792.825,"endTime":794.393,"body":"at least, is"},{"startTime":796.896,"endTime":797.663,"body":"a very big change"},{"startTime":797.663,"endTime":801.901,"body":"in China over the last"},{"startTime":797.663,"endTime":801.901,"body":"maybe started ten years ago."},{"startTime":801.901,"endTime":807.273,"body":"That began to be very noticeable"},{"startTime":801.901,"endTime":807.273,"body":"five years ago, creating a lot of demand"},{"startTime":807.273,"endTime":812.011,"body":"for fuel cells, for fuel cell technology,"},{"startTime":807.273,"endTime":812.011,"body":"for fuel cell know how or materials"},{"startTime":812.011,"endTime":815.948,"body":"and parts."},{"startTime":815.948,"endTime":818.918,"body":"Yeah, it's from many different reasons."},{"startTime":818.918,"endTime":819.885,"body":"It does feel different now."},{"startTime":819.885,"endTime":823.055,"body":"There's a lot more government"},{"startTime":819.885,"endTime":823.055,"body":"funding, government interest"},{"startTime":824.824,"endTime":826.892,"body":"alongside the interest industry,"},{"startTime":826.892,"endTime":830.296,"body":"and those are really playing well together"},{"startTime":826.892,"endTime":830.296,"body":"and creating"},{"startTime":831.363,"endTime":832.832,"body":"a very"},{"startTime":835.1,"endTime":839.238,"body":"interesting industry to work in right now."},{"startTime":839.238,"endTime":841.34,"body":"You see similar activities."},{"startTime":841.34,"endTime":844.343,"body":"I mean, we're talking here"},{"startTime":841.34,"endTime":844.343,"body":"fuel cell stack too."},{"startTime":844.91,"endTime":848.914,"body":"That takes hydrogen"},{"startTime":844.91,"endTime":848.914,"body":"as an input to generate electricity power,"},{"startTime":848.914,"endTime":852.952,"body":"a battery power and e-motor for,"},{"startTime":848.914,"endTime":852.952,"body":"let's say, a heavy duty truck application."},{"startTime":853.452,"endTime":857.79,"body":"You see similar type of level"},{"startTime":853.452,"endTime":857.79,"body":"of activities in the electrolysis side."},{"startTime":857.79,"endTime":859.758,"body":"I mean, you kind of"},{"startTime":857.79,"endTime":859.758,"body":"we need to kind of have both."},{"startTime":859.758,"endTime":863.162,"body":"We need the hydrogen in order"},{"startTime":859.758,"endTime":863.162,"body":"so we can run a fuel cell stack."},{"startTime":863.162,"endTime":869.568,"body":"But you see similar advancements"},{"startTime":863.162,"endTime":869.568,"body":"in the technology on that side."},{"startTime":869.568,"endTime":870.402,"body":"Yeah, I think so."},{"startTime":870.402,"endTime":872.671,"body":"And to be honest, electrolysis isn't my"},{"startTime":874.173,"endTime":875.574,"body":"specialty,"},{"startTime":875.841,"endTime":878.377,"body":"but I think that market is even bigger"},{"startTime":878.377,"endTime":881.714,"body":"right now and kind of exploding"},{"startTime":878.377,"endTime":881.714,"body":"even more than fuel cells."},{"startTime":881.714,"endTime":883.949,"body":"It's been looking very interesting to me."},{"startTime":884.583,"endTime":887.82,"body":"I'd like to learn more about it,"},{"startTime":887.82,"endTime":893.192,"body":"but yeah, the whole idea"},{"startTime":887.82,"endTime":893.192,"body":"of decarbonization or of using hydrogen"},{"startTime":893.192,"endTime":896.161,"body":"really hinges on making hydrogen"},{"startTime":893.192,"endTime":896.161,"body":"and in a green way."},{"startTime":897.029,"endTime":901.634,"body":"And so wind, solar, hydro to some extent."},{"startTime":902.067,"endTime":904.937,"body":"So there's a lot of interest in"},{"startTime":904.937,"endTime":909.241,"body":"how to store renewable energy."},{"startTime":909.742,"endTime":913.212,"body":"It's not convenient to put all that"},{"startTime":909.742,"endTime":913.212,"body":"electricity into a battery."},{"startTime":914.046,"endTime":919.184,"body":"It's way more convenient to put it into"},{"startTime":914.046,"endTime":919.184,"body":"some kind of gas or liquid hydrogen."},{"startTime":919.184,"endTime":924.99,"body":"As a great candidate, you can store it,"},{"startTime":919.184,"endTime":924.99,"body":"you can ship it."},{"startTime":924.99,"endTime":929.495,"body":"And so, yeah, I get the feeling"},{"startTime":924.99,"endTime":929.495,"body":"everybody's trying to buy an electrolyzer"},{"startTime":930.262,"endTime":935.734,"body":"and there's there's a lot of movement"},{"startTime":930.262,"endTime":935.734,"body":"in that technology as well that"},{"startTime":936.702,"endTime":938.07,"body":"is very similar"},{"startTime":938.07,"endTime":941.34,"body":"technology to a fuel cell and"},{"startTime":941.941,"endTime":943.842,"body":"and is advancing rapidly as well"},{"startTime":943.842,"endTime":948.781,"body":"in areas of efficiency, durability."},{"startTime":948.781,"endTime":952.785,"body":"Yeah I think that's it's going to be"},{"startTime":948.781,"endTime":952.785,"body":"very interesting times and electrolyzer"},{"startTime":952.785,"endTime":956.422,"body":"sales in the next few years. My"},{"startTime":956.422,"endTime":958.757,"body":"maybe final question again,"},{"startTime":958.757,"endTime":962.461,"body":"in any industry for a long time,"},{"startTime":958.757,"endTime":962.461,"body":"you seem still very excited."},{"startTime":962.461,"endTime":963.996,"body":"I can I can see you as I am."},{"startTime":963.996,"endTime":965.497,"body":"You're still I have is great to see you."},{"startTime":965.497,"endTime":967.266,"body":"I mean this is awesome."},{"startTime":967.266,"endTime":970.235,"body":"So let's say another ten years easily,"},{"startTime":967.266,"endTime":970.235,"body":"right, Amy?"},{"startTime":970.235,"endTime":973.472,"body":"And what do you look forward"},{"startTime":970.235,"endTime":973.472,"body":"to over the next ten years"},{"startTime":973.472,"endTime":976.942,"body":"in when it comes to fuel cell"},{"startTime":973.472,"endTime":976.942,"body":"stack technologies?"},{"startTime":976.942,"endTime":979.411,"body":"What do you see changing?"},{"startTime":979.411,"endTime":983.415,"body":"Not necessarily power density,"},{"startTime":979.411,"endTime":983.415,"body":"but just in general, what from it from a"},{"startTime":983.415,"endTime":987.987,"body":"purely technology standpoint, from purely"},{"startTime":983.415,"endTime":987.987,"body":"what you're doing on a daily basis, what"},{"startTime":988.32,"endTime":993.392,"body":"what do you see happening over"},{"startTime":988.32,"endTime":993.392,"body":"the next ten years?"},{"startTime":993.392,"endTime":996.762,"body":"That's a really good question."},{"startTime":996.762,"endTime":999.498,"body":"On technology basis, I just the"},{"startTime":1000.566,"endTime":1002.735,"body":"and something that I really look"},{"startTime":1000.566,"endTime":1002.735,"body":"forward to"},{"startTime":1002.735,"endTime":1004.603,"body":"is seeing"},{"startTime":1006.472,"endTime":1007.639,"body":"units out in the field"},{"startTime":1007.639,"endTime":1010.976,"body":"and getting like real world durability"},{"startTime":1012.578,"endTime":1014.613,"body":"verification assessment,"},{"startTime":1014.747,"endTime":1018.25,"body":"getting data back on how things perform"},{"startTime":1018.25,"endTime":1022.087,"body":"and in real world conditions"},{"startTime":1018.25,"endTime":1022.087,"body":"in the fuel cell arena."},{"startTime":1022.087,"endTime":1023.288,"body":"We have"},{"startTime":1023.822,"endTime":1027.226,"body":"hours and hours and years"},{"startTime":1023.822,"endTime":1027.226,"body":"and years of lab data,"},{"startTime":1027.693,"endTime":1032.398,"body":"and sometimes that's not really how"},{"startTime":1027.693,"endTime":1032.398,"body":"things get used or I'm really interested"},{"startTime":1032.398,"endTime":1035.801,"body":"to get more"},{"startTime":1032.398,"endTime":1035.801,"body":"and more products out in the field"},{"startTime":1038.57,"endTime":1043.909,"body":"and and really,"},{"startTime":1038.57,"endTime":1043.909,"body":"really making a dent in and durability."},{"startTime":1043.909,"endTime":1047.046,"body":"And one thing I'm really interested in,"},{"startTime":1043.909,"endTime":1047.046,"body":"we talked about simulation a little bit."},{"startTime":1047.046,"endTime":1048.747,"body":"I am very interested in that simulation."},{"startTime":1048.747,"endTime":1052.051,"body":"And the tricky bit there is, you know,"},{"startTime":1048.747,"endTime":1052.051,"body":"you can simulate"},{"startTime":1054.219,"endTime":1056.255,"body":"durability, you can think about"},{"startTime":1056.955,"endTime":1060.526,"body":"how to mathematically represent"},{"startTime":1056.955,"endTime":1060.526,"body":"that and make some nice models"},{"startTime":1061.193,"endTime":1064.63,"body":"and they look good"},{"startTime":1061.193,"endTime":1064.63,"body":"and you don't really know if they are good"},{"startTime":1064.63,"endTime":1068.233,"body":"until you get some data back"},{"startTime":1064.63,"endTime":1068.233,"body":"from from field operations."},{"startTime":1069.168,"endTime":1072.871,"body":"So I'm really looking forward"},{"startTime":1069.168,"endTime":1072.871,"body":"to improving our our simulation capability"},{"startTime":1072.871,"endTime":1076.975,"body":"in that regard and to understanding"},{"startTime":1072.871,"endTime":1076.975,"body":"how things fail or don't fail."},{"startTime":1078.043,"endTime":1080.112,"body":"Often as engineers, we worry a little bit"},{"startTime":1080.112,"endTime":1084.049,"body":"too much about how things will fail"},{"startTime":1080.112,"endTime":1084.049,"body":"and then it comes out."},{"startTime":1084.049,"endTime":1086.485,"body":"You know,"},{"startTime":1084.049,"endTime":1086.485,"body":"they do just fine out in the wild."},{"startTime":1087.352,"endTime":1090.289,"body":"Yeah, I have the same problem"},{"startTime":1087.352,"endTime":1090.289,"body":"when I when I go into something that"},{"startTime":1090.522,"endTime":1093.725,"body":"I'm looking at is like, I don't know,"},{"startTime":1090.522,"endTime":1093.725,"body":"has an FMA done on this thing"},{"startTime":1093.725,"endTime":1095.527,"body":"or is this safe? You know."},{"startTime":1095.527,"endTime":1095.894,"body":"That."},{"startTime":1095.894,"endTime":1099.364,"body":"Sometimes you ask the engineer,"},{"startTime":1095.894,"endTime":1099.364,"body":"sometimes our own worst enemies, right,"},{"startTime":1099.364,"endTime":1101.867,"body":"when it comes to this stuff"},{"startTime":1099.364,"endTime":1101.867,"body":"because we always see a failure"},{"startTime":1102.501,"endTime":1105.971,"body":"instead of the joy"},{"startTime":1102.501,"endTime":1105.971,"body":"of what we developed, Right."},{"startTime":1106.505,"endTime":1107.106,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1107.106,"endTime":1109.341,"body":"And, and yeah, we work a lot with"},{"startTime":1111.343,"endTime":1112.478,"body":"use cases in the lab"},{"startTime":1112.478,"endTime":1115.714,"body":"where we're trying to make things fail"},{"startTime":1112.478,"endTime":1115.714,"body":"so that we can engineer them better."},{"startTime":1115.714,"endTime":1118.25,"body":"And so all we see is failure."},{"startTime":1118.25,"endTime":1122.554,"body":"And sometimes I look at"},{"startTime":1118.25,"endTime":1122.554,"body":"I have an XO, a Hyundai fuel cell car"},{"startTime":1122.855,"endTime":1125.958,"body":"that I drive on a daily basis"},{"startTime":1122.855,"endTime":1125.958,"body":"and know sometimes"},{"startTime":1125.958,"endTime":1129.895,"body":"I'm getting into thinking, Oh my gosh,"},{"startTime":1125.958,"endTime":1129.895,"body":"you know, how is this still working?"},{"startTime":1129.895,"endTime":1131.43,"body":"I've been driving it for three years."},{"startTime":1131.43,"endTime":1132.698,"body":"It should have failed by now"},{"startTime":1132.698,"endTime":1135.634,"body":"because that's what I do in the lab"},{"startTime":1132.698,"endTime":1135.634,"body":"is I make stuff fail."},{"startTime":1135.767,"endTime":1138.036,"body":"Yeah, but it's remarkably robust."},{"startTime":1138.036,"endTime":1139.671,"body":"Like nothing goes wrong with it."},{"startTime":1139.671,"endTime":1140.472,"body":"I get into it."},{"startTime":1140.472,"endTime":1141.64,"body":"It's my daily driver."},{"startTime":1141.64,"endTime":1142.407,"body":"It always starts."},{"startTime":1142.407,"endTime":1145.544,"body":"It always runs high. It's fantastic."},{"startTime":1145.544,"endTime":1149.148,"body":"I mean, as technology,"},{"startTime":1145.544,"endTime":1149.148,"body":"that's that's ready for use."},{"startTime":1149.148,"endTime":1152.518,"body":"So I'm really excited to watch"},{"startTime":1152.518,"endTime":1156.188,"body":"the next five years"},{"startTime":1152.518,"endTime":1156.188,"body":"and see the technology being used."},{"startTime":1156.622,"endTime":1157.823,"body":"Very good."},{"startTime":1157.956,"endTime":1159.658,"body":"Well, thank you, Amy, for your time today."},{"startTime":1159.658,"endTime":1162.528,"body":"And thank you,"},{"startTime":1159.658,"endTime":1162.528,"body":"everybody else for for tuning in."},{"startTime":1163.529,"endTime":1164.296,"body":"Thank you so much."},{"startTime":1164.296,"endTime":1166.431,"body":"It is a pleasure to chat with you."},{"startTime":1164.296,"endTime":1166.431,"body":"Thank you, Amy."},{"startTime":1167.099,"endTime":1167.733,"body":"Thanks for listening."},{"startTime":1167.733,"endTime":1169.535,"body":"To Reimagine Mobility Podcast."},{"startTime":1169.535,"endTime":1172.171,"body":"If you like this episode,"},{"startTime":1169.535,"endTime":1172.171,"body":"please subscribe and tell a friend."}]}