{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":4.375,"endTime":5.916,"body":"Welcome, everyone, to the latest edition"},{"startTime":5.916,"endTime":9.625,"body":"of the Reimagine Mobility Podcast series."},{"startTime":9.791,"endTime":13.583,"body":"I'm here with Sean O'Kane"},{"startTime":9.791,"endTime":13.583,"body":"and Michael Bambula from AVL."},{"startTime":14.083,"endTime":17.666,"body":"Michael works in our Advanced Simulation"},{"startTime":14.083,"endTime":17.666,"body":"Technologies Group"},{"startTime":17.666,"endTime":21.208,"body":"and Sean works in our technology"},{"startTime":17.666,"endTime":21.208,"body":"development group."},{"startTime":21.958,"endTime":24.041,"body":"Welcome, both guys."},{"startTime":24.291,"endTime":26.0,"body":"Thanks for joining me."},{"startTime":26.0,"endTime":30.083,"body":"Maybe we'll start out with you guys"},{"startTime":26.0,"endTime":30.083,"body":"are both working in the battery space."},{"startTime":31.166,"endTime":34.666,"body":"EVs, I think we can say it's booming."},{"startTime":35.083,"endTime":36.375,"body":"Everybody needs batteries."},{"startTime":36.375,"endTime":39.0,"body":"Everybody needs technology."},{"startTime":39.0,"endTime":42.958,"body":"Help and technologies as it relates"},{"startTime":39.0,"endTime":42.958,"body":"to electrified propulsion systems."},{"startTime":43.875,"endTime":47.5,"body":"And maybe to start out with with Sean"},{"startTime":43.875,"endTime":47.5,"body":"to kind of tee off."},{"startTime":48.125,"endTime":49.75,"body":"Michael Here."},{"startTime":49.791,"endTime":52.5,"body":"Sean When it comes to battery development,"},{"startTime":49.791,"endTime":52.5,"body":"as you've been doing for many,"},{"startTime":52.5,"endTime":56.333,"body":"many years,"},{"startTime":52.5,"endTime":56.333,"body":"I would assume simulation over the years"},{"startTime":56.333,"endTime":59.041,"body":"has become more"},{"startTime":56.333,"endTime":59.041,"body":"and more important in your work."},{"startTime":59.708,"endTime":62.791,"body":"But how important really is"},{"startTime":59.708,"endTime":62.791,"body":"today's simulation when you compare it"},{"startTime":62.791,"endTime":64.166,"body":"to maybe five years ago?"},{"startTime":65.541,"endTime":66.208,"body":"Well, even"},{"startTime":66.208,"endTime":69.291,"body":"just five years ago,"},{"startTime":66.208,"endTime":69.291,"body":"it's it's improved greatly."},{"startTime":69.291,"endTime":73.166,"body":"And one of the benefits that it brings"},{"startTime":69.291,"endTime":73.166,"body":"is its ability"},{"startTime":73.166,"endTime":77.541,"body":"to maybe even eliminate some testing,"},{"startTime":73.166,"endTime":77.541,"body":"some actual physical testing."},{"startTime":78.041,"endTime":82.458,"body":"So you can do in simulation what used to"},{"startTime":78.041,"endTime":82.458,"body":"take a lot of physical testing."},{"startTime":82.458,"endTime":86.125,"body":"You'd have to build samples,"},{"startTime":82.458,"endTime":86.125,"body":"get them out to to test and"},{"startTime":86.25,"endTime":91.25,"body":"and and then take a look at those results"},{"startTime":86.25,"endTime":91.25,"body":"and and apply that to your design."},{"startTime":91.25,"endTime":95.25,"body":"Where is in that"},{"startTime":91.25,"endTime":95.25,"body":"with the way that the tools are able to do"},{"startTime":95.25,"endTime":98.25,"body":"now is in the design phase being able"},{"startTime":98.25,"endTime":103.375,"body":"to accurately predict some of those tests"},{"startTime":98.25,"endTime":103.375,"body":"and maybe even some accommodations"},{"startTime":103.375,"endTime":106.375,"body":"then that you could make in the design"},{"startTime":103.375,"endTime":106.375,"body":"to say,"},{"startTime":106.375,"endTime":109.375,"body":"fix some flaws or weaknesses."},{"startTime":111.083,"endTime":113.541,"body":"Michael"},{"startTime":111.083,"endTime":113.541,"body":"Maybe just the same question to you."},{"startTime":113.541,"endTime":115.791,"body":"Five years ago we did simulation tools."},{"startTime":115.791,"endTime":118.916,"body":"Are simulation tools"},{"startTime":115.791,"endTime":118.916,"body":"existent in batteries."},{"startTime":119.375,"endTime":122.291,"body":"Now we're five years later"},{"startTime":119.375,"endTime":122.291,"body":"and certainly batteries"},{"startTime":122.458,"endTime":125.166,"body":"even more important than they were"},{"startTime":122.458,"endTime":125.166,"body":"five years ago."},{"startTime":125.75,"endTime":129.708,"body":"How far along has simulation technology"},{"startTime":125.75,"endTime":129.708,"body":"come to to keep up with"},{"startTime":129.958,"endTime":133.916,"body":"let's say, new demand in in not know,"},{"startTime":129.958,"endTime":133.916,"body":"not necessarily more,"},{"startTime":133.916,"endTime":137.666,"body":"but more demand on the tool to do"},{"startTime":133.916,"endTime":137.666,"body":"even more work for us to develop"},{"startTime":137.958,"endTime":140.666,"body":"this technology even faster and better."},{"startTime":141.5,"endTime":142.041,"body":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"startTime":142.041,"endTime":146.5,"body":"I would say five years ago"},{"startTime":142.041,"endTime":146.5,"body":"the tools did exist, but within the past"},{"startTime":146.5,"endTime":151.041,"body":"five years, especially with the changes"},{"startTime":146.5,"endTime":151.041,"body":"that we've seen in the mobility industry"},{"startTime":151.083,"endTime":154.333,"body":"going towards the alternative"},{"startTime":151.083,"endTime":154.333,"body":"propulsion technologies,"},{"startTime":154.75,"endTime":158.458,"body":"there's been an increase"},{"startTime":154.75,"endTime":158.458,"body":"in development efforts and you know, as"},{"startTime":158.583,"endTime":162.083,"body":"Sean has said,"},{"startTime":158.583,"endTime":162.083,"body":"you know, the story is always that"},{"startTime":162.166,"endTime":165.958,"body":"simulation can enhance a test,"},{"startTime":162.166,"endTime":165.958,"body":"you know, So instead of"},{"startTime":166.458,"endTime":168.916,"body":"doing a deep, really,"},{"startTime":169.75,"endTime":172.541,"body":"you know, detailed test matrix,"},{"startTime":173.583,"endTime":174.541,"body":"you can test a few"},{"startTime":174.541,"endTime":178.583,"body":"points to develop the model"},{"startTime":174.541,"endTime":178.583,"body":"and then virtually probe"},{"startTime":178.625,"endTime":183.708,"body":"the other areas of the matrix"},{"startTime":178.625,"endTime":183.708,"body":"in simulation, which do, you know, helps"},{"startTime":183.791,"endTime":187.625,"body":"gain insights,"},{"startTime":183.791,"endTime":187.625,"body":"whether it's it's worth it to even devote"},{"startTime":187.625,"endTime":191.041,"body":"real hard resources"},{"startTime":187.625,"endTime":191.041,"body":"on those additional test areas."},{"startTime":191.5,"endTime":194.25,"body":"And then, yeah,"},{"startTime":191.5,"endTime":194.25,"body":"it basically gives you more insight."},{"startTime":194.25,"endTime":195.5,"body":"You're able to"},{"startTime":196.125,"endTime":199.083,"body":"see different temperatures"},{"startTime":196.125,"endTime":199.083,"body":"across the entire system,"},{"startTime":199.083,"endTime":201.291,"body":"which you wouldn't"},{"startTime":199.083,"endTime":201.291,"body":"be able to just pure testing,"},{"startTime":201.333,"endTime":203.666,"body":"you'd have to thermocouple"},{"startTime":201.333,"endTime":203.666,"body":"different regions."},{"startTime":203.666,"endTime":206.125,"body":"So yeah, overall the space is exciting."},{"startTime":206.125,"endTime":207.75,"body":"A lot of development."},{"startTime":208.416,"endTime":211.041,"body":"When we talking about batteries"},{"startTime":208.416,"endTime":211.041,"body":"and you just highlight a little bit"},{"startTime":211.041,"endTime":215.041,"body":"that the temperature measurements"},{"startTime":211.041,"endTime":215.041,"body":"right thermal management, one of the key"},{"startTime":215.041,"endTime":219.125,"body":"maybe sometimes a little forgotten to the"},{"startTime":215.041,"endTime":219.125,"body":"to the more general public."},{"startTime":219.125,"endTime":221.916,"body":"But you know, Sean's nodding right away."},{"startTime":221.958,"endTime":224.791,"body":"The thermal management,"},{"startTime":221.958,"endTime":224.791,"body":"one of the key challenges."},{"startTime":225.541,"endTime":226.5,"body":"How close?"},{"startTime":226.5,"endTime":229.583,"body":"Michael, are we"},{"startTime":226.5,"endTime":229.583,"body":"when it comes to correlation"},{"startTime":229.583,"endTime":233.166,"body":"between what we actually measure"},{"startTime":229.583,"endTime":233.166,"body":"or are able to measure in the battery"},{"startTime":233.166,"endTime":238.041,"body":"and what we're simulating,"},{"startTime":233.166,"endTime":238.041,"body":"how close is that that correlation today?"},{"startTime":239.0,"endTime":242.416,"body":"And how far have we come"},{"startTime":239.0,"endTime":242.416,"body":"from five years ago to kind of highlight"},{"startTime":242.416,"endTime":247.708,"body":"maybe how the simulation capabilities"},{"startTime":242.416,"endTime":247.708,"body":"have increased or the modeling accuracy?"},{"startTime":247.708,"endTime":249.375,"body":"Maybe? Yeah."},{"startTime":249.375,"endTime":253.166,"body":"So I'd say on the on"},{"startTime":249.375,"endTime":253.166,"body":"the thermal management side, it depends on"},{"startTime":253.166,"endTime":255.458,"body":"what levels of thermal modeling"},{"startTime":253.166,"endTime":255.458,"body":"you're doing."},{"startTime":255.458,"endTime":259.375,"body":"So just on normal"},{"startTime":255.458,"endTime":259.375,"body":"battery operation in use, you know,"},{"startTime":259.375,"endTime":263.333,"body":"nominal operation,"},{"startTime":259.375,"endTime":263.333,"body":"I think we we have really close"},{"startTime":263.666,"endTime":268.875,"body":"correlation between test to 3D,"},{"startTime":263.666,"endTime":268.875,"body":"CFD to even system model."},{"startTime":268.875,"endTime":271.958,"body":"We've demonstrated that there's"},{"startTime":268.875,"endTime":271.958,"body":"a very strong tight temperature"},{"startTime":271.958,"endTime":275.125,"body":"correlation of a few degrees."},{"startTime":275.125,"endTime":280.333,"body":"I would say this is really important"},{"startTime":275.125,"endTime":280.333,"body":"because you can't over cool the battery,"},{"startTime":280.333,"endTime":283.5,"body":"you know, the with,"},{"startTime":280.333,"endTime":283.5,"body":"with older thermal management"},{"startTime":283.5,"endTime":286.916,"body":"methods, you just want to maintain"},{"startTime":283.5,"endTime":286.916,"body":"a temperature operating point."},{"startTime":287.25,"endTime":289.958,"body":"But that in a battery"},{"startTime":289.958,"endTime":293.416,"body":"electrified"},{"startTime":289.958,"endTime":293.416,"body":"powertrain has a tradeoff of range."},{"startTime":293.416,"endTime":297.375,"body":"You know, if you're over cooling,"},{"startTime":293.416,"endTime":297.375,"body":"you have a diminishing return"},{"startTime":297.5,"endTime":298.625,"body":"with respect to range"},{"startTime":298.625,"endTime":301.5,"body":"because you're dedicating more power"},{"startTime":298.625,"endTime":301.5,"body":"to run the palms and the auxiliaries."},{"startTime":301.958,"endTime":305.458,"body":"But so that's the interesting challenge,"},{"startTime":301.958,"endTime":305.458,"body":"is to understand that to fine tune"},{"startTime":305.458,"endTime":310.125,"body":"that that temperature control with respect"},{"startTime":305.458,"endTime":310.125,"body":"to not impacting your range."},{"startTime":310.5,"endTime":314.75,"body":"Now when we go to other deeper like more"},{"startTime":315.25,"endTime":318.375,"body":"I guess, chaotic temperature"},{"startTime":315.25,"endTime":318.375,"body":"operating points, like a thermal runaway,"},{"startTime":319.083,"endTime":322.041,"body":"that's where that's an ongoing"},{"startTime":319.083,"endTime":322.041,"body":"area of research within the industry."},{"startTime":322.791,"endTime":325.458,"body":"I would say"},{"startTime":322.791,"endTime":325.458,"body":"AVL is very strongly positioned"},{"startTime":325.5,"endTime":328.625,"body":"with our testing capabilities,"},{"startTime":325.5,"endTime":328.625,"body":"our in-house knowledge"},{"startTime":328.625,"endTime":332.458,"body":"on the engineering side"},{"startTime":328.625,"endTime":332.458,"body":"and then on the simulation side"},{"startTime":332.75,"endTime":334.625,"body":"to blend all those together."},{"startTime":334.625,"endTime":338.666,"body":"And then really understand that phenomenon"},{"startTime":334.625,"endTime":338.666,"body":"at been more depth and model,"},{"startTime":338.666,"endTime":344.125,"body":"that phenomenon which is very high value,"},{"startTime":338.666,"endTime":344.125,"body":"high risk, even in a testing environment."},{"startTime":344.125,"endTime":347.708,"body":"So we deliver both value, decrease value,"},{"startTime":348.0,"endTime":351.458,"body":"decrease cost, exponential cash,"},{"startTime":348.0,"endTime":351.458,"body":"exponential for those tests"},{"startTime":351.791,"endTime":356.875,"body":"as well as decreased risk to the, you"},{"startTime":351.791,"endTime":356.875,"body":"know, personnel who perform these tests."},{"startTime":358.291,"endTime":360.541,"body":"And Sean, maybe a very similar question"},{"startTime":360.541,"endTime":363.625,"body":"along those lines and feel free to comment"},{"startTime":360.541,"endTime":363.625,"body":"on what Michael just said."},{"startTime":363.625,"endTime":367.666,"body":"But but for you that is responsible"},{"startTime":363.625,"endTime":367.666,"body":"to lead teams in developing off"},{"startTime":368.166,"endTime":371.333,"body":"again, let's say batteries, modules, packs"},{"startTime":372.083,"endTime":375.833,"body":"we're simulation playing"},{"startTime":372.083,"endTime":375.833,"body":"maybe a much bigger role"},{"startTime":375.833,"endTime":379.083,"body":"or a much more key role"},{"startTime":375.833,"endTime":379.083,"body":"versus versus auto."},{"startTime":379.083,"endTime":380.916,"body":"So where do you use simulation more?"},{"startTime":380.916,"endTime":385.208,"body":"Rely more on simulation"},{"startTime":380.916,"endTime":385.208,"body":"and which ones may be less?"},{"startTime":386.75,"endTime":389.041,"body":"Well, this, as Michael pointed out, for"},{"startTime":389.5,"endTime":394.416,"body":"for the potential of thermal propagation"},{"startTime":389.5,"endTime":394.416,"body":"and the mitigation of thermal propagation."},{"startTime":394.416,"endTime":395.75,"body":"It's an amazing tool."},{"startTime":395.75,"endTime":400.125,"body":"You can say assume that you have an event"},{"startTime":395.75,"endTime":400.125,"body":"in a battery pack."},{"startTime":400.416,"endTime":404.041,"body":"It's going to event gases"},{"startTime":400.416,"endTime":404.041,"body":"and it's it's it's"},{"startTime":404.458,"endTime":408.5,"body":"being able to manage"},{"startTime":404.458,"endTime":408.5,"body":"when that happens and direct"},{"startTime":408.5,"endTime":412.375,"body":"maybe those gases in a particular way,"},{"startTime":408.5,"endTime":412.375,"body":"knowing what materials might be"},{"startTime":412.583,"endTime":415.708,"body":"in the path of those gases"},{"startTime":412.583,"endTime":415.708,"body":"and how combustible"},{"startTime":415.708,"endTime":418.333,"body":"they might be"},{"startTime":415.708,"endTime":418.333,"body":"or what they might add to the event."},{"startTime":418.75,"endTime":422.916,"body":"Or you can then figure out"},{"startTime":418.75,"endTime":422.916,"body":"how they can not add to the event, right."},{"startTime":423.208,"endTime":424.666,"body":"All in the simulation."},{"startTime":424.666,"endTime":426.791,"body":"So being able to safely"},{"startTime":427.541,"endTime":431.375,"body":"handle a thermal event,"},{"startTime":427.541,"endTime":431.375,"body":"it's an amazing tool."},{"startTime":431.375,"endTime":435.541,"body":"And then that is leading towards"},{"startTime":431.375,"endTime":435.541,"body":"eliminating the possibility"},{"startTime":435.541,"endTime":438.916,"body":"of a thermal event"},{"startTime":435.541,"endTime":438.916,"body":"and at the cell level, module"},{"startTime":438.916,"endTime":442.791,"body":"level and pack level as well."},{"startTime":442.791,"endTime":446.875,"body":"Some OEMs and some in"},{"startTime":442.791,"endTime":446.875,"body":"the industries have have shared"},{"startTime":446.875,"endTime":449.208,"body":"that they believe they can get away"},{"startTime":449.208,"endTime":453.041,"body":"with with physical testing"},{"startTime":449.208,"endTime":453.041,"body":"and do everything in the virtual world."},{"startTime":453.041,"endTime":456.083,"body":"But let's take thermal management,"},{"startTime":453.041,"endTime":456.083,"body":"for example,"},{"startTime":456.083,"endTime":458.416,"body":"right here,"},{"startTime":456.083,"endTime":458.416,"body":"because it is again a key topic."},{"startTime":459.0,"endTime":463.583,"body":"Sean, do you see that is actually possible"},{"startTime":459.0,"endTime":463.583,"body":"to not test"},{"startTime":464.041,"endTime":467.708,"body":"a physical battery"},{"startTime":464.041,"endTime":467.708,"body":"specifically for the potential"},{"startTime":467.875,"endTime":472.458,"body":"of of a thermal runaway event"},{"startTime":467.875,"endTime":472.458,"body":"and do it all in simulation?"},{"startTime":472.458,"endTime":476.708,"body":"And if simulation tells us"},{"startTime":472.458,"endTime":476.708,"body":"we designed the batteries so"},{"startTime":476.708,"endTime":480.625,"body":"well that it's not going to happen,"},{"startTime":476.708,"endTime":480.625,"body":"you're good with it."},{"startTime":480.625,"endTime":484.375,"body":"Or are you more like, yes,"},{"startTime":480.625,"endTime":484.375,"body":"we can push the boundaries of how much"},{"startTime":484.833,"endTime":488.833,"body":"physical testing we need to do, but"},{"startTime":484.833,"endTime":488.833,"body":"the physical testing, at least from what"},{"startTime":488.833,"endTime":492.208,"body":"you can send in in the near or even long"},{"startTime":488.833,"endTime":492.208,"body":"term future, is not going away."},{"startTime":492.541,"endTime":496.375,"body":"Can you give me a perspective on that?"},{"startTime":496.375,"endTime":501.291,"body":"I would say that in the in the near term"},{"startTime":496.375,"endTime":501.291,"body":"that the physical testing is still"},{"startTime":501.666,"endTime":506.958,"body":"a very useful tool and in a number of ways"},{"startTime":501.666,"endTime":506.958,"body":"it can tell you exactly what's happening"},{"startTime":507.541,"endTime":510.541,"body":"with your design"},{"startTime":507.541,"endTime":510.541,"body":"and with with with your pack"},{"startTime":511.208,"endTime":515.041,"body":"as well as feed data back into the model"},{"startTime":515.333,"endTime":519.916,"body":"so that the simulation tools"},{"startTime":515.333,"endTime":519.916,"body":"become stronger with that data."},{"startTime":520.166,"endTime":525.166,"body":"And then that hopefully in the near future"},{"startTime":520.166,"endTime":525.166,"body":"could lead to either less testing"},{"startTime":525.625,"endTime":526.916,"body":"or maybe even no testing."},{"startTime":528.041,"endTime":528.833,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":529.708,"endTime":532.458,"body":"Michael, what do you see"},{"startTime":529.708,"endTime":532.458,"body":"when you talk to customers for"},{"startTime":532.458,"endTime":534.708,"body":"for some of the tools"},{"startTime":532.458,"endTime":534.708,"body":"that you're responsible for?"},{"startTime":534.708,"endTime":538.0,"body":"Is is their goal to eliminate"},{"startTime":534.708,"endTime":538.0,"body":"physical testing?"},{"startTime":538.0,"endTime":542.166,"body":"Is their goal"},{"startTime":538.0,"endTime":542.166,"body":"to reduce the physical properties you need"},{"startTime":542.166,"endTime":543.958,"body":"and the time you need,"},{"startTime":542.166,"endTime":543.958,"body":"which is obviously way"},{"startTime":543.958,"endTime":547.208,"body":"more expensive than doing it"},{"startTime":543.958,"endTime":547.208,"body":"digitally or in simulation"},{"startTime":547.708,"endTime":551.041,"body":"or what are they mainly looking for"},{"startTime":547.708,"endTime":551.041,"body":"in simulation tools?"},{"startTime":551.041,"endTime":553.125,"body":"Again, let's stay with batteries"},{"startTime":551.041,"endTime":553.125,"body":"here for a moment."},{"startTime":554.125,"endTime":557.666,"body":"What I would say, at least on the battery,"},{"startTime":554.125,"endTime":557.666,"body":"when it comes to the cell"},{"startTime":557.833,"endTime":561.083,"body":"side of things,"},{"startTime":557.833,"endTime":561.083,"body":"they will likely have to test the due"},{"startTime":561.083,"endTime":563.25,"body":"to the phenomenon of thermal runaway"},{"startTime":564.416,"endTime":566.125,"body":"being pretty."},{"startTime":566.125,"endTime":570.208,"body":"It's understood, but the actual root"},{"startTime":566.125,"endTime":570.208,"body":"cause of these events is not"},{"startTime":571.375,"endTime":572.541,"body":"always well understood."},{"startTime":572.541,"endTime":577.0,"body":"So they always will have to test the cell"},{"startTime":572.541,"endTime":577.0,"body":"for the energy release and how that looks"},{"startTime":577.666,"endTime":580.583,"body":"as far as when we get"},{"startTime":577.666,"endTime":580.583,"body":"to the packing module level,"},{"startTime":581.208,"endTime":585.458,"body":"they want to do more of this in simulation"},{"startTime":581.208,"endTime":585.458,"body":"because those events"},{"startTime":585.458,"endTime":591.541,"body":"when you start doing an energy release on"},{"startTime":585.458,"endTime":591.541,"body":"an entire pack is very, very I'd say"},{"startTime":591.541,"endTime":595.375,"body":"there's only a few testing locations"},{"startTime":591.541,"endTime":595.375,"body":"in the world that can do this safely."},{"startTime":595.875,"endTime":597.833,"body":"And as well, you only get one shot."},{"startTime":597.833,"endTime":599.25,"body":"You know, it's a destructive test."},{"startTime":599.25,"endTime":603.041,"body":"So if you have prototype cells,"},{"startTime":599.25,"endTime":603.041,"body":"if you have prototype enclosures"},{"startTime":603.041,"endTime":605.333,"body":"for the pack, prototype materials,"},{"startTime":603.041,"endTime":605.333,"body":"anything like that,"},{"startTime":605.625,"endTime":608.5,"body":"those will likely be sacrificed"},{"startTime":605.625,"endTime":608.5,"body":"for the test."},{"startTime":608.5,"endTime":612.5,"body":"So they want to be able to reduce"},{"startTime":608.5,"endTime":612.5,"body":"as much of that as possible"},{"startTime":612.5,"endTime":616.375,"body":"because that is a"},{"startTime":612.5,"endTime":616.375,"body":"is the definition of a high risk,"},{"startTime":616.916,"endTime":619.791,"body":"really expensive test is is a prototype"},{"startTime":616.916,"endTime":619.791,"body":"destructive test."},{"startTime":620.125,"endTime":624.958,"body":"So yeah, we see strong, strong appetite"},{"startTime":620.125,"endTime":624.958,"body":"from our customers"},{"startTime":625.25,"endTime":628.25,"body":"within the industry"},{"startTime":625.25,"endTime":628.25,"body":"to reduce the amount of those"},{"startTime":628.25,"endTime":630.916,"body":"that they perform and perform"},{"startTime":628.25,"endTime":630.916,"body":"as much of it in simulation."},{"startTime":631.666,"endTime":634.416,"body":"And then to at the end of those tests"},{"startTime":631.666,"endTime":634.416,"body":"sometimes."},{"startTime":634.875,"endTime":636.958,"body":"But the evidence literally is not there."},{"startTime":637.75,"endTime":639.583,"body":"It's gone. It's a destructive test."},{"startTime":639.583,"endTime":643.125,"body":"So the simulation, you can go"},{"startTime":639.583,"endTime":643.125,"body":"deeper into an event"},{"startTime":643.875,"endTime":647.0,"body":"while actually seeing"},{"startTime":643.875,"endTime":647.0,"body":"what might be happening,"},{"startTime":647.916,"endTime":650.25,"body":"Whereas in a in a physical test,"},{"startTime":650.25,"endTime":654.833,"body":"once the initial event is has moved on to"},{"startTime":650.25,"endTime":654.833,"body":"say, well, it's propagated,"},{"startTime":656.041,"endTime":657.083,"body":"more and more evidence is"},{"startTime":657.083,"endTime":660.041,"body":"destroyed and even your instrumentation"},{"startTime":657.083,"endTime":660.041,"body":"can be destroyed in that event."},{"startTime":660.833,"endTime":662.666,"body":"No, very true."},{"startTime":662.666,"endTime":664.583,"body":"When we take"},{"startTime":664.791,"endTime":668.375,"body":"a battery for a moment"},{"startTime":664.791,"endTime":668.375,"body":"and let's leave testing out"},{"startTime":668.375,"endTime":671.416,"body":"that we just talked about that"},{"startTime":668.375,"endTime":671.416,"body":"we're clearly trying to strive, as Sean,"},{"startTime":671.416,"endTime":675.375,"body":"as you mentioned, and Michael as well,"},{"startTime":671.416,"endTime":675.375,"body":"to try and eliminate the physical testing"},{"startTime":675.375,"endTime":679.0,"body":"and replace it"},{"startTime":675.375,"endTime":679.0,"body":"with with simulation or digital."},{"startTime":680.125,"endTime":682.958,"body":"When we take simulation tools,"},{"startTime":682.958,"endTime":687.125,"body":"how much longer would the design"},{"startTime":682.958,"endTime":687.125,"body":"of a battery again, testing aside,"},{"startTime":687.125,"endTime":693.416,"body":"but the design of a battery take today,"},{"startTime":687.125,"endTime":693.416,"body":"if we have to simulate and capabilities"},{"startTime":693.416,"endTime":699.083,"body":"of what we had, let's say five years ago,"},{"startTime":693.416,"endTime":699.083,"body":"how much longer Michael would you see?"},{"startTime":699.083,"endTime":701.208,"body":"And then will ask Sean the same thing."},{"startTime":701.625,"endTime":703.625,"body":"Would you see the battery design?"},{"startTime":703.625,"endTime":704.291,"body":"Take it."},{"startTime":704.291,"endTime":707.5,"body":"Is it you know, is it 50% more manpower?"},{"startTime":707.541,"endTime":709.708,"body":"Is it 50% longer?"},{"startTime":710.25,"endTime":713.541,"body":"Any ideas on that?"},{"startTime":713.541,"endTime":715.541,"body":"Yeah, I would say it."},{"startTime":715.541,"endTime":719.083,"body":"It's that question of if you"},{"startTime":720.375,"endTime":721.166,"body":"I guess if you"},{"startTime":721.166,"endTime":724.875,"body":"devote more resources, does it necessarily"},{"startTime":721.166,"endTime":724.875,"body":"speed up the development process?"},{"startTime":725.333,"endTime":729.666,"body":"I think through simulation you're able"},{"startTime":725.333,"endTime":729.666,"body":"to really investigate more and more."},{"startTime":729.708,"endTime":733.5,"body":"So if you did it the traditional way"},{"startTime":729.708,"endTime":733.5,"body":"maybe five, seven years ago,"},{"startTime":733.833,"endTime":736.375,"body":"you see definitely a time improvement."},{"startTime":736.416,"endTime":740.666,"body":"I would estimate on the order of,"},{"startTime":736.416,"endTime":740.666,"body":"you know, 20% or so, maybe even 30,"},{"startTime":740.666,"endTime":745.5,"body":"33% a third of the time cut"},{"startTime":740.666,"endTime":745.5,"body":"by doing a lot of these in virtual."},{"startTime":746.166,"endTime":749.708,"body":"But yeah, and I think the bigger question"},{"startTime":749.708,"endTime":752.958,"body":"is not so much about the time"},{"startTime":749.708,"endTime":752.958,"body":"or even the cost."},{"startTime":753.208,"endTime":755.375,"body":"It's what performance"},{"startTime":753.208,"endTime":755.375,"body":"is left on the table."},{"startTime":755.375,"endTime":757.375,"body":"And so you see"},{"startTime":757.541,"endTime":761.458,"body":"many people would be able to design"},{"startTime":757.541,"endTime":761.458,"body":"to put a battery pack together."},{"startTime":761.458,"endTime":763.708,"body":"Now is that the most efficient design?"},{"startTime":763.708,"endTime":765.083,"body":"Is that the safest design?"},{"startTime":765.083,"endTime":770.041,"body":"Is that the one that that will yield"},{"startTime":765.083,"endTime":770.041,"body":"the most range out of the system"},{"startTime":770.375,"endTime":774.0,"body":"that I think is the bigger question"},{"startTime":770.375,"endTime":774.0,"body":"and especially how competitive"},{"startTime":774.0,"endTime":775.666,"body":"a lot of these battery electric vehicle"},{"startTime":775.666,"endTime":779.5,"body":"companies are to stand out"},{"startTime":775.666,"endTime":779.5,"body":"when it comes to EPA range"},{"startTime":780.583,"endTime":782.666,"body":"testing and, you know,"},{"startTime":783.541,"endTime":787.25,"body":"the reassuring the customer"},{"startTime":783.541,"endTime":787.25,"body":"of range anxiety or that the battery"},{"startTime":787.5,"endTime":790.541,"body":"will stay within a warranty"},{"startTime":787.5,"endTime":790.541,"body":"and they won't have to replace it"},{"startTime":790.75,"endTime":794.375,"body":"prematurely,"},{"startTime":790.75,"endTime":794.375,"body":"I think that's the bigger benefit"},{"startTime":794.375,"endTime":798.0,"body":"that simulation comes to as well"},{"startTime":794.375,"endTime":798.0,"body":"as, you know, obviously decreasing"},{"startTime":798.833,"endTime":802.25,"body":"development time"},{"startTime":798.833,"endTime":802.25,"body":"and saving on the cost of the development."},{"startTime":802.875,"endTime":805.583,"body":"Okay. Yeah,"},{"startTime":802.875,"endTime":805.583,"body":"it's hard to disagree with that."},{"startTime":805.583,"endTime":809.25,"body":"And and I think that so"},{"startTime":805.583,"endTime":809.25,"body":"even at the prototype level"},{"startTime":809.25,"endTime":813.375,"body":"with some analysis work"},{"startTime":809.25,"endTime":813.375,"body":"being done on their say for durability"},{"startTime":813.375,"endTime":817.25,"body":"even or you know how it's going to survive"},{"startTime":813.375,"endTime":817.25,"body":"actually functioning in a vehicle,"},{"startTime":817.291,"endTime":820.875,"body":"making sure that high voltage"},{"startTime":817.291,"endTime":820.875,"body":"is not going to be"},{"startTime":821.791,"endTime":824.458,"body":"shaken or rubbed or exposed."},{"startTime":824.458,"endTime":827.625,"body":"Then for whatever reason, through use,"},{"startTime":824.458,"endTime":827.625,"body":"being able"},{"startTime":827.625,"endTime":831.5,"body":"to simulate"},{"startTime":827.625,"endTime":831.5,"body":"that early can almost eliminate the stuff."},{"startTime":831.5,"endTime":835.375,"body":"With our first pass,"},{"startTime":831.5,"endTime":835.375,"body":"we're coming to our customers"},{"startTime":835.375,"endTime":839.291,"body":"with a product"},{"startTime":835.375,"endTime":839.291,"body":"that meets their requirements"},{"startTime":839.291,"endTime":842.0,"body":"better than it"},{"startTime":839.291,"endTime":842.0,"body":"did before five years ago. So"},{"startTime":844.208,"endTime":844.541,"body":"okay."},{"startTime":844.541,"endTime":848.333,"body":"And maybe for a for a moment"},{"startTime":844.541,"endTime":848.333,"body":"at separate simulations or let's"},{"startTime":848.666,"endTime":851.666,"body":"let's ask the question for Sean first"},{"startTime":848.666,"endTime":851.666,"body":"and then we go to Michael"},{"startTime":851.666,"endTime":853.208,"body":"for more simulation."},{"startTime":853.208,"endTime":855.083,"body":"Sean, if you had to"},{"startTime":855.083,"endTime":858.833,"body":"if you had to list one"},{"startTime":855.083,"endTime":858.833,"body":"to maybe three areas"},{"startTime":858.833,"endTime":862.208,"body":"where you feel customers start looking"},{"startTime":862.208,"endTime":867.041,"body":"for a battery, oftentimes either"},{"startTime":862.208,"endTime":867.041,"body":"forget about"},{"startTime":867.041,"endTime":870.958,"body":"or don't pay enough attention to"},{"startTime":867.041,"endTime":870.958,"body":"or give enough"},{"startTime":872.208,"endTime":875.458,"body":"credit as it relates to"},{"startTime":872.208,"endTime":875.458,"body":"how big of a challenge it might be."},{"startTime":875.5,"endTime":877.041,"body":"What would these things be?"},{"startTime":877.041,"endTime":880.583,"body":"What would these areas be as it is"},{"startTime":877.041,"endTime":880.583,"body":"thermal management, as we talked"},{"startTime":880.583,"endTime":884.333,"body":"a little bit about, is it"},{"startTime":880.583,"endTime":884.333,"body":"I don't know, the crash worthiness,"},{"startTime":884.333,"endTime":888.916,"body":"Is it the weight, the cooling system,"},{"startTime":884.333,"endTime":888.916,"body":"the complete system?"},{"startTime":889.083,"endTime":891.75,"body":"What are some of the things that you feel"},{"startTime":889.083,"endTime":891.75,"body":"in your experience?"},{"startTime":892.25,"endTime":896.75,"body":"Oftentimes you wish customers will get a"},{"startTime":892.25,"endTime":896.75,"body":"maybe a higher appreciation for it."},{"startTime":896.75,"endTime":900.375,"body":"And what you feel right now"},{"startTime":896.75,"endTime":900.375,"body":"is, generally speaking, not for each"},{"startTime":900.375,"endTime":903.75,"body":"individual customer,"},{"startTime":900.375,"endTime":903.75,"body":"but generally speaking."},{"startTime":903.75,"endTime":906.166,"body":"Well,"},{"startTime":903.75,"endTime":906.166,"body":"I'd like to say that all of our customers"},{"startTime":906.166,"endTime":908.125,"body":"think of everything"},{"startTime":906.166,"endTime":908.125,"body":"before they come to the table."},{"startTime":909.5,"endTime":912.458,"body":"But obviously"},{"startTime":909.5,"endTime":912.458,"body":"there are some things that get overlooked."},{"startTime":912.458,"endTime":915.083,"body":"I think that the amount of detail"},{"startTime":912.458,"endTime":915.083,"body":"that needs to happen"},{"startTime":915.083,"endTime":917.958,"body":"in the thermal management system,"},{"startTime":915.083,"endTime":917.958,"body":"as you mentioned, is something that"},{"startTime":918.375,"endTime":922.208,"body":"that may not always get its due diligence."},{"startTime":922.208,"endTime":925.958,"body":"And in some of the"},{"startTime":922.208,"endTime":925.958,"body":"some of the surprises that can happen"},{"startTime":925.958,"endTime":929.125,"body":"then are well, can"},{"startTime":929.125,"endTime":933.958,"body":"at worst case be catastrophic"},{"startTime":929.125,"endTime":933.958,"body":"and in other cases than not,"},{"startTime":934.125,"endTime":938.541,"body":"not get the optimum, say, range"},{"startTime":934.125,"endTime":938.541,"body":"or performance out of the batteries."},{"startTime":938.541,"endTime":939.208,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":939.291,"endTime":942.291,"body":"The the"},{"startTime":939.291,"endTime":942.291,"body":"the amount of detail that goes into that"},{"startTime":942.291,"endTime":945.583,"body":"to say maintain a delta T across the pack"},{"startTime":946.458,"endTime":950.166,"body":"keeping all of the cells"},{"startTime":946.458,"endTime":950.166,"body":"at a very close to same temperature"},{"startTime":950.916,"endTime":953.333,"body":"is is very difficult"},{"startTime":950.916,"endTime":953.333,"body":"especially when you're"},{"startTime":953.333,"endTime":957.083,"body":"getting into the larger packs that we are"},{"startTime":953.333,"endTime":957.083,"body":"now some of the trucks that are"},{"startTime":957.083,"endTime":961.5,"body":"that are happening are very large packs,"},{"startTime":957.083,"endTime":961.5,"body":"multiple tiers and being able"},{"startTime":961.5,"endTime":965.125,"body":"to keep all of those cells within, say,"},{"startTime":965.125,"endTime":967.5,"body":"five degrees C is very difficult."},{"startTime":968.25,"endTime":970.583,"body":"So there's quite a bit of effort"},{"startTime":968.25,"endTime":970.583,"body":"that has to go into that"},{"startTime":970.791,"endTime":973.0,"body":"that that sometimes is overlooked."},{"startTime":973.0,"endTime":976.75,"body":"And then if you're starting"},{"startTime":973.0,"endTime":976.75,"body":"from scratch with the BMS"},{"startTime":977.75,"endTime":978.291,"body":"the amount"},{"startTime":978.291,"endTime":981.0,"body":"of effort that it takes to develop"},{"startTime":978.291,"endTime":981.0,"body":"that software"},{"startTime":981.375,"endTime":984.791,"body":"to cover all of the details"},{"startTime":981.375,"endTime":984.791,"body":"that are required in a battery pack"},{"startTime":985.416,"endTime":990.041,"body":"takes a really good amount of effort"},{"startTime":985.416,"endTime":990.041,"body":"and you have to spend some time"},{"startTime":990.041,"endTime":993.333,"body":"there to make sure"},{"startTime":990.041,"endTime":993.333,"body":"that that is as good as it can be."},{"startTime":993.958,"endTime":996.5,"body":"It keeps your battery"},{"startTime":993.958,"endTime":996.5,"body":"as safe as it can be, your vehicle,"},{"startTime":996.833,"endTime":999.833,"body":"and then by nature,"},{"startTime":996.833,"endTime":999.833,"body":"the passengers as well."},{"startTime":1000.166,"endTime":1003.541,"body":"So those are those are two aspects"},{"startTime":1000.166,"endTime":1003.541,"body":"that I would say that"},{"startTime":1004.875,"endTime":1007.625,"body":"require more attention, say,"},{"startTime":1004.875,"endTime":1007.625,"body":"at the beginning than than there are."},{"startTime":1007.666,"endTime":1008.458,"body":"I again."},{"startTime":1009.166,"endTime":1010.583,"body":"You bring it up again, a good point."},{"startTime":1010.583,"endTime":1013.666,"body":"Software, even though oftentimes"},{"startTime":1010.583,"endTime":1013.666,"body":"we think of a battery as a"},{"startTime":1013.875,"endTime":1017.333,"body":"as a as a physical, as a mechanical,"},{"startTime":1013.875,"endTime":1017.333,"body":"as a chemical thing,"},{"startTime":1018.833,"endTime":1021.291,"body":"just like in most other domains on a"},{"startTime":1021.291,"endTime":1025.541,"body":"on a modern vehicle, on the ground,"},{"startTime":1021.291,"endTime":1025.541,"body":"in the air, and in space for sure as well."},{"startTime":1025.541,"endTime":1027.791,"body":"Software plays a critical role."},{"startTime":1028.291,"endTime":1031.083,"body":"And with that, a perfect segue"},{"startTime":1028.291,"endTime":1031.083,"body":"way over to to Michael."},{"startTime":1031.125,"endTime":1033.25,"body":"Right. Simulation is software."},{"startTime":1033.25,"endTime":1034.833,"body":"At the end of the day,"},{"startTime":1034.833,"endTime":1038.375,"body":"what do you see with your customers"},{"startTime":1034.833,"endTime":1038.375,"body":"one day when they come to you?"},{"startTime":1038.708,"endTime":1043.458,"body":"What are they maybe what are many of them"},{"startTime":1038.708,"endTime":1043.458,"body":"missing when it comes to simulation?"},{"startTime":1043.458,"endTime":1047.208,"body":"Maybe they envision it's"},{"startTime":1043.458,"endTime":1047.208,"body":"going to be way more powerful"},{"startTime":1047.208,"endTime":1050.708,"body":"than than what it really is"},{"startTime":1047.208,"endTime":1050.708,"body":"or what simulation today is capable."},{"startTime":1050.708,"endTime":1052.041,"body":"Is it the exact opposite?"},{"startTime":1052.041,"endTime":1056.541,"body":"They think what it can do"},{"startTime":1052.041,"endTime":1056.541,"body":"is is only a fraction of we can do, right."},{"startTime":1056.541,"endTime":1059.75,"body":"I always look at, for example,"},{"startTime":1056.541,"endTime":1059.75,"body":"Excel spreadsheet, right?"},{"startTime":1059.75,"endTime":1063.375,"body":"I probably use 1% of the capability"},{"startTime":1059.75,"endTime":1063.375,"body":"that that thing has,"},{"startTime":1063.791,"endTime":1067.25,"body":"and I don't recognize how much"},{"startTime":1063.791,"endTime":1067.25,"body":"more it does because it does for me."},{"startTime":1067.25,"endTime":1070.416,"body":"What it needs"},{"startTime":1067.25,"endTime":1070.416,"body":"is that's similar in simulation."},{"startTime":1070.416,"endTime":1074.125,"body":"If your with your tools or is it"},{"startTime":1070.416,"endTime":1074.125,"body":"is it a customer the exact opposite."},{"startTime":1074.125,"endTime":1074.833,"body":"They want more."},{"startTime":1074.833,"endTime":1077.708,"body":"They feel like it should be able to do"},{"startTime":1074.833,"endTime":1077.708,"body":"more than one is already does."},{"startTime":1078.791,"endTime":1079.875,"body":"Yeah, I would"},{"startTime":1079.875,"endTime":1080.166,"body":"say it's"},{"startTime":1080.166,"endTime":1085.375,"body":"it's sort of mixed and I would say"},{"startTime":1080.166,"endTime":1085.375,"body":"customers are always pushing the envelope"},{"startTime":1085.375,"endTime":1089.625,"body":"for the development side"},{"startTime":1085.375,"endTime":1089.625,"body":"to create more and more capability."},{"startTime":1090.375,"endTime":1094.541,"body":"So a lot of them,"},{"startTime":1090.375,"endTime":1094.541,"body":"a big fixation is is on battery aging."},{"startTime":1094.541,"endTime":1098.75,"body":"And this is something that is a very deep"},{"startTime":1094.541,"endTime":1098.75,"body":"area of development within AVL"},{"startTime":1099.375,"endTime":1102.25,"body":"in order to better capture"},{"startTime":1099.375,"endTime":1102.25,"body":"that phenomenon and prescribe"},{"startTime":1102.25,"endTime":1105.916,"body":"actually the the causes of the aging."},{"startTime":1106.125,"endTime":1110.375,"body":"And then ideally customers"},{"startTime":1106.125,"endTime":1110.375,"body":"want to tie that back to the use case"},{"startTime":1110.375,"endTime":1115.166,"body":"and on the BMS side to attempt to mitigate"},{"startTime":1110.375,"endTime":1115.166,"body":"that those phenomenon."},{"startTime":1115.416,"endTime":1120.708,"body":"I think as far as what customers"},{"startTime":1115.416,"endTime":1120.708,"body":"I think are missing when they go straight"},{"startTime":1120.708,"endTime":1125.75,"body":"into the development of a pack"},{"startTime":1120.708,"endTime":1125.75,"body":"and really don't appreciate or I guess"},{"startTime":1126.25,"endTime":1130.0,"body":"utilize the full capability out of"},{"startTime":1126.25,"endTime":1130.0,"body":"simulation is the aging side of things."},{"startTime":1130.0,"endTime":1131.958,"body":"It's it's a very complex phenomenon."},{"startTime":1131.958,"endTime":1135.583,"body":"It needs some testing data"},{"startTime":1131.958,"endTime":1135.583,"body":"that's very tedious to get."},{"startTime":1135.583,"endTime":1136.875,"body":"It's not a difficult test."},{"startTime":1136.875,"endTime":1139.75,"body":"It's just a test that takes a long time"},{"startTime":1136.875,"endTime":1139.75,"body":"because aging takes time"},{"startTime":1139.75,"endTime":1141.833,"body":"and it will only work in the real world"},{"startTime":1139.75,"endTime":1141.833,"body":"here."},{"startTime":1141.833,"endTime":1143.875,"body":"So every second passes is a real second."},{"startTime":1144.916,"endTime":1147.625,"body":"But at the end of something like that,"},{"startTime":1144.916,"endTime":1147.625,"body":"you know,"},{"startTime":1147.625,"endTime":1151.0,"body":"if they put in that upfront work"},{"startTime":1147.625,"endTime":1151.0,"body":"and get these these data and"},{"startTime":1151.666,"endTime":1155.708,"body":"work to understand what's"},{"startTime":1151.666,"endTime":1155.708,"body":"what's occurring, then in simulation,"},{"startTime":1156.166,"endTime":1158.75,"body":"you can run thousands of these type"},{"startTime":1158.75,"endTime":1161.625,"body":"of scenarios"},{"startTime":1158.75,"endTime":1161.625,"body":"in a fraction of the time it would take."},{"startTime":1161.916,"endTime":1165.75,"body":"And that leads, I think, to a good point"},{"startTime":1161.916,"endTime":1165.75,"body":"that Sean was making on the BMS side"},{"startTime":1165.75,"endTime":1170.083,"body":"on the software side, you would"},{"startTime":1165.75,"endTime":1170.083,"body":"then be able to develop more robust"},{"startTime":1170.083,"endTime":1173.416,"body":"software to control the battery"},{"startTime":1170.083,"endTime":1173.416,"body":"and understand really"},{"startTime":1173.791,"endTime":1176.541,"body":"how the battery is behaving"},{"startTime":1173.791,"endTime":1176.541,"body":"and what to look out for"},{"startTime":1176.541,"endTime":1180.166,"body":"and really control it in"},{"startTime":1176.541,"endTime":1180.166,"body":"in a more optimum fashion."},{"startTime":1180.166,"endTime":1183.208,"body":"And I think that, quite frankly,"},{"startTime":1180.166,"endTime":1183.208,"body":"is the key differentiator"},{"startTime":1183.208,"endTime":1185.75,"body":"among the different battery"},{"startTime":1183.208,"endTime":1185.75,"body":"electric vehicles."},{"startTime":1185.75,"endTime":1188.375,"body":"You know, everybody does the teardown,"},{"startTime":1185.75,"endTime":1188.375,"body":"everybody knows what cell"},{"startTime":1188.375,"endTime":1192.25,"body":"everyone is using, everyone knows the how,"},{"startTime":1188.375,"endTime":1192.25,"body":"the thermal management loop looks,"},{"startTime":1192.25,"endTime":1193.5,"body":"what fluids were pumps,"},{"startTime":1194.583,"endTime":1195.416,"body":"what people don't"},{"startTime":1195.416,"endTime":1198.875,"body":"have really insight to is in the software,"},{"startTime":1195.416,"endTime":1198.875,"body":"the control strategy,"},{"startTime":1199.208,"endTime":1202.375,"body":"which simulation will allow you"},{"startTime":1199.208,"endTime":1202.375,"body":"to develop more robust solution."},{"startTime":1203.083,"endTime":1204.25,"body":"Very good."},{"startTime":1204.25,"endTime":1207.125,"body":"And quickly, maybe before we wrap it"},{"startTime":1204.25,"endTime":1207.125,"body":"up, Michael, you first."},{"startTime":1207.5,"endTime":1212.166,"body":"How much does, if any,"},{"startTime":1207.5,"endTime":1212.166,"body":"the simulation tools we're using today"},{"startTime":1213.208,"endTime":1215.375,"body":"need to change when we really get into,"},{"startTime":1215.416,"endTime":1218.416,"body":"as we're doing now, solid state batteries?"},{"startTime":1218.416,"endTime":1220.458,"body":"Is there a change we need to do?"},{"startTime":1220.458,"endTime":1221.458,"body":"Is there"},{"startTime":1221.958,"endTime":1225.208,"body":"an additional feature"},{"startTime":1221.958,"endTime":1225.208,"body":"or function, new models?"},{"startTime":1225.208,"endTime":1228.666,"body":"Give us a little bit of an idea"},{"startTime":1225.208,"endTime":1228.666,"body":"of what the storage trend what does this"},{"startTime":1228.666,"endTime":1232.541,"body":"transition over to solid state batteries"},{"startTime":1228.666,"endTime":1232.541,"body":"mean for the tools"},{"startTime":1232.541,"endTime":1236.125,"body":"that we currently use today"},{"startTime":1232.541,"endTime":1236.125,"body":"to develop batteries, simulate batteries?"},{"startTime":1237.0,"endTime":1239.541,"body":"I think for the solid state battery,"},{"startTime":1237.0,"endTime":1239.541,"body":"there's a"},{"startTime":1240.791,"endTime":1242.416,"body":"fragile, I guess,"},{"startTime":1243.416,"endTime":1244.916,"body":"component to it where"},{"startTime":1244.916,"endTime":1250.25,"body":"the the you can damage the battery"},{"startTime":1244.916,"endTime":1250.25,"body":"by having it exposed to too much NVH"},{"startTime":1250.291,"endTime":1252.625,"body":"So I think there would have to be"},{"startTime":1253.208,"endTime":1258.25,"body":"a combination"},{"startTime":1253.208,"endTime":1258.25,"body":"of electrochemical phenomenon within this"},{"startTime":1258.291,"endTime":1264.666,"body":"this model as well as you know NVH"},{"startTime":1258.291,"endTime":1264.666,"body":"sort of durability analysis or perspective"},{"startTime":1264.833,"endTime":1269.541,"body":"on what loads that the battery is"},{"startTime":1264.833,"endTime":1269.541,"body":"actually exposed to the cell specifically."},{"startTime":1269.541,"endTime":1272.208,"body":"And so I think that is an area"},{"startTime":1272.958,"endTime":1275.458,"body":"where we're there's"},{"startTime":1272.958,"endTime":1275.458,"body":"still a lot of meat on the bone per se,"},{"startTime":1275.5,"endTime":1279.708,"body":"you know, because these these experts in"},{"startTime":1275.5,"endTime":1279.708,"body":"NVH and definitely not chemistry experts"},{"startTime":1279.708,"endTime":1283.333,"body":"and chemistry experts are definitely not,"},{"startTime":1279.708,"endTime":1283.333,"body":"you know, mechanical fatigue experts."},{"startTime":1283.75,"endTime":1288.75,"body":"So this is this is the area, I think, that"},{"startTime":1283.75,"endTime":1288.75,"body":"that would have to be sort of united."},{"startTime":1289.375,"endTime":1290.291,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1290.375,"endTime":1293.75,"body":"And Sean, similar question,"},{"startTime":1290.375,"endTime":1293.75,"body":"working with liquid based"},{"startTime":1294.041,"endTime":1298.5,"body":"then now going to solid state batteries,"},{"startTime":1294.041,"endTime":1298.5,"body":"what do you see some of the challenges"},{"startTime":1298.5,"endTime":1299.583,"body":"there that are new?"},{"startTime":1301.375,"endTime":1303.083,"body":"Well, the goal is,"},{"startTime":1303.083,"endTime":1307.458,"body":"is to achieve energy density, right,"},{"startTime":1303.083,"endTime":1307.458,"body":"so that you can get the same range"},{"startTime":1307.458,"endTime":1308.5,"body":"out of a smaller space"},{"startTime":1308.5,"endTime":1312.25,"body":"in the vehicle or increased range"},{"startTime":1308.5,"endTime":1312.25,"body":"out of the same space in the vehicle."},{"startTime":1312.708,"endTime":1317.666,"body":"And and being able"},{"startTime":1312.708,"endTime":1317.666,"body":"to package those in a tighter space"},{"startTime":1318.208,"endTime":1324.041,"body":"and with more energy can create issues"},{"startTime":1318.208,"endTime":1324.041,"body":"for thermal propagation."},{"startTime":1324.041,"endTime":1327.166,"body":"Like we started off"},{"startTime":1324.041,"endTime":1327.166,"body":"talking about thermal propagation"},{"startTime":1327.166,"endTime":1330.833,"body":"and thermal events"},{"startTime":1327.166,"endTime":1330.833,"body":"as is high on every customer's list"},{"startTime":1331.291,"endTime":1335.291,"body":"and being able to mitigate or eliminate"},{"startTime":1331.291,"endTime":1335.291,"body":"that is is going to be key"},{"startTime":1335.291,"endTime":1339.75,"body":"and being able to simulate the energy"},{"startTime":1335.291,"endTime":1339.75,"body":"that is within those solid state cells."},{"startTime":1340.125,"endTime":1343.666,"body":"And and if something were to go wrong,"},{"startTime":1340.125,"endTime":1343.666,"body":"being able"},{"startTime":1343.666,"endTime":1347.208,"body":"to to accurately predict that and analyze"},{"startTime":1343.666,"endTime":1347.208,"body":"it is going to be key."},{"startTime":1347.625,"endTime":1350.708,"body":"And I think that the"},{"startTime":1347.625,"endTime":1350.708,"body":"the tools that Michael uses"},{"startTime":1350.833,"endTime":1353.916,"body":"this is an outstanding example"},{"startTime":1350.833,"endTime":1353.916,"body":"of being able to do that."},{"startTime":1354.708,"endTime":1355.541,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1356.0,"endTime":1357.666,"body":"And last question to both of you."},{"startTime":1358.75,"endTime":1359.458,"body":"People that want to"},{"startTime":1359.458,"endTime":1363.25,"body":"become more familiar"},{"startTime":1359.458,"endTime":1363.25,"body":"with, again, in this case,"},{"startTime":1363.25,"endTime":1366.958,"body":"battery development, battery technology"},{"startTime":1363.25,"endTime":1366.958,"body":"simulation,"},{"startTime":1368.041,"endTime":1371.291,"body":"do you listen to podcasts like this one?"},{"startTime":1371.291,"endTime":1371.708,"body":"Do you?"},{"startTime":1371.708,"endTime":1373.375,"body":"Sean and then Michael afterwards?"},{"startTime":1373.375,"endTime":1375.583,"body":"But Sean, what do you get?"},{"startTime":1375.583,"endTime":1378.708,"body":"What do you do to keep up with the latest"},{"startTime":1375.583,"endTime":1378.708,"body":"and greatest battery"},{"startTime":1378.708,"endTime":1381.958,"body":"technologies, battery development"},{"startTime":1378.708,"endTime":1381.958,"body":"technologies as it maybe relates"},{"startTime":1381.958,"endTime":1384.25,"body":"to simulation, as it maybe relates to"},{"startTime":1385.458,"endTime":1387.916,"body":"BMS Software or thermal runaway?"},{"startTime":1387.916,"endTime":1392.208,"body":"Is it you read magazines,"},{"startTime":1387.916,"endTime":1392.208,"body":"you go to training courses, you attend"},{"startTime":1392.625,"endTime":1395.458,"body":"conferences, all of the above, none of it."},{"startTime":1395.958,"endTime":1397.916,"body":"What do you specifically do?"},{"startTime":1397.916,"endTime":1399.416,"body":"Absolutely all of the above."},{"startTime":1399.416,"endTime":1402.375,"body":"I mean, conferences are a great place"},{"startTime":1399.416,"endTime":1402.375,"body":"to be able to"},{"startTime":1402.708,"endTime":1405.041,"body":"to to see what is up and coming."},{"startTime":1405.791,"endTime":1409.75,"body":"A lot of customers"},{"startTime":1405.791,"endTime":1409.75,"body":"and a lot of vendors are there, too. So"},{"startTime":1410.875,"endTime":1411.416,"body":"we can"},{"startTime":1411.416,"endTime":1415.875,"body":"we can all be talking on the same topics"},{"startTime":1411.416,"endTime":1415.875,"body":"and on the same level"},{"startTime":1416.416,"endTime":1420.208,"body":"of a lot of a lot of people"},{"startTime":1416.416,"endTime":1420.208,"body":"that are on the cutting edge of technology"},{"startTime":1420.208,"endTime":1422.958,"body":"keep their secrets"},{"startTime":1420.208,"endTime":1422.958,"body":"pretty close to their chest."},{"startTime":1423.291,"endTime":1426.625,"body":"So you've got to have good relationships"},{"startTime":1423.291,"endTime":1426.625,"body":"with those folks"},{"startTime":1427.0,"endTime":1431.458,"body":"and and with a broad depth"},{"startTime":1427.0,"endTime":1431.458,"body":"of both sides of that."},{"startTime":1431.458,"endTime":1434.541,"body":"Customers and vendors,"},{"startTime":1431.458,"endTime":1434.541,"body":"we're able to keep a pulse"},{"startTime":1434.541,"endTime":1439.625,"body":"on what's happening in the industry,"},{"startTime":1434.541,"endTime":1439.625,"body":"whether it be new Solid-State"},{"startTime":1439.625,"endTime":1443.75,"body":"style cells or immersed cooling,"},{"startTime":1439.625,"endTime":1443.75,"body":"whatever it might be."},{"startTime":1443.958,"endTime":1446.208,"body":"We're able"},{"startTime":1443.958,"endTime":1446.208,"body":"to stay at the forefront of that"},{"startTime":1446.583,"endTime":1449.208,"body":"and includes research"},{"startTime":1446.583,"endTime":1449.208,"body":"as well, as you pointed out."},{"startTime":1449.833,"endTime":1451.083,"body":"Okay. Okay."},{"startTime":1451.083,"endTime":1453.875,"body":"Michael, what about a follow up for you"},{"startTime":1451.083,"endTime":1453.875,"body":"on the on the simulation side?"},{"startTime":1453.875,"endTime":1456.583,"body":"I assume it's conferences as well."},{"startTime":1457.0,"endTime":1462.041,"body":"Is it benchmarking or using other people's"},{"startTime":1457.0,"endTime":1462.041,"body":"tools to get more familiar?"},{"startTime":1462.041,"endTime":1466.75,"body":"Are talking more customers are talking"},{"startTime":1462.041,"endTime":1466.75,"body":"to people like Sean internally, right."},{"startTime":1466.75,"endTime":1469.625,"body":"To figure out, hey, what can we do"},{"startTime":1466.75,"endTime":1469.625,"body":"better where things going but"},{"startTime":1469.958,"endTime":1472.708,"body":"shed a little bit of light on"},{"startTime":1469.958,"endTime":1472.708,"body":"as it relates from from your perspective"},{"startTime":1472.708,"endTime":1476.916,"body":"or you get industry updates"},{"startTime":1472.708,"endTime":1476.916,"body":"when you keep on the on the cutting edge?"},{"startTime":1477.708,"endTime":1478.125,"body":"Yeah, Yeah."},{"startTime":1478.125,"endTime":1480.916,"body":"So I mean,"},{"startTime":1478.125,"endTime":1480.916,"body":"I reference a lot of literature."},{"startTime":1480.916,"endTime":1485.958,"body":"I read research papers, we stay in touch"},{"startTime":1480.916,"endTime":1485.958,"body":"with what's going on in academia."},{"startTime":1485.958,"endTime":1491.083,"body":"So it's frequent meetings"},{"startTime":1485.958,"endTime":1491.083,"body":"with the academia in this area."},{"startTime":1491.083,"endTime":1495.166,"body":"And as Sean had said, you know, it's"},{"startTime":1491.083,"endTime":1495.166,"body":"a, it's an area, it's very secretive,"},{"startTime":1495.625,"endTime":1498.458,"body":"but as well, there's a lot of hype"},{"startTime":1495.625,"endTime":1498.458,"body":"within the industry, too."},{"startTime":1498.458,"endTime":1500.0,"body":"So you got to kind of filter out"},{"startTime":1500.0,"endTime":1503.708,"body":"the noise and also for the secrecy side,"},{"startTime":1500.0,"endTime":1503.708,"body":"you got to connect the dots."},{"startTime":1503.708,"endTime":1505.75,"body":"So, you know, sometimes people"},{"startTime":1505.75,"endTime":1509.625,"body":"allude to things in meetings or speak in"},{"startTime":1505.75,"endTime":1509.625,"body":"sort of a code."},{"startTime":1509.625,"endTime":1512.75,"body":"You have to be knowledgeable enough"},{"startTime":1509.625,"endTime":1512.75,"body":"to connect the dots"},{"startTime":1512.75,"endTime":1516.75,"body":"of what they're saying, to understand"},{"startTime":1512.75,"endTime":1516.75,"body":"what direction they are actually headed."},{"startTime":1516.75,"endTime":1519.916,"body":"And I think that's a that's a"},{"startTime":1516.75,"endTime":1519.916,"body":"that's a strong skill set"},{"startTime":1520.083,"endTime":1524.791,"body":"that we have at AVL to be able to do that"},{"startTime":1520.083,"endTime":1524.791,"body":"and help the customers while maintaining,"},{"startTime":1524.833,"endTime":1527.75,"body":"you know, strict confidentiality"},{"startTime":1524.833,"endTime":1527.75,"body":"with them for the work we do."},{"startTime":1529.0,"endTime":1530.75,"body":"So, yeah, it's all of the above, really."},{"startTime":1530.75,"endTime":1534.875,"body":"Just taking all the all the information"},{"startTime":1530.75,"endTime":1534.875,"body":"and going to conferences, reading"},{"startTime":1535.333,"endTime":1538.666,"body":"research papers"},{"startTime":1535.333,"endTime":1538.666,"body":"and maintaining industry connections."},{"startTime":1539.0,"endTime":1540.0,"body":"Very good."},{"startTime":1540.0,"endTime":1542.0,"body":"So again, we, we never stop learning."},{"startTime":1542.0,"endTime":1544.416,"body":"We just keep on learning day"},{"startTime":1542.0,"endTime":1544.416,"body":"in and day out, right?"},{"startTime":1544.75,"endTime":1548.833,"body":"The university days or college days"},{"startTime":1544.75,"endTime":1548.833,"body":"or high school days are never over."},{"startTime":1548.833,"endTime":1552.041,"body":"You continue to work so very good."},{"startTime":1552.5,"endTime":1553.333,"body":"Thanks, Michael."},{"startTime":1553.333,"endTime":1554.5,"body":"Thanks, Sean, for your time."},{"startTime":1554.5,"endTime":1556.541,"body":"And thanks, everybody for tuning in."},{"startTime":1556.541,"endTime":1557.208,"body":"Thanks for listening."},{"startTime":1557.208,"endTime":1559.0,"body":"To Reimagine Mobility Podcast."},{"startTime":1559.0,"endTime":1561.625,"body":"If you like this episode,"},{"startTime":1559.0,"endTime":1561.625,"body":"please subscribe and tell a friend."}]}