Nurturing Self-Awareness and Resilience in Leadership with Patricia Zinnecker

Patricia reflects on her journey and her experiences with burnout. She shares valuable insights on the importance of taking breaks, recharging, and reconnecting with the physical world.

In this candid conversation, Patricia emphasizes the significance of self-awareness, listening to our intuition, and setting boundaries. She shares how her time in Italy helped her reconnect with herself, and how trusting her intuition has been vital in her personal growth. Patricia even discusses the idea of creating a "manual" for ourselves to better understand our own triggers and needs - but first, we must take the time to truly know ourselves.

Setting boundaries is an essential part of self-care, and Patricia dives into how these boundaries can help us align with our values and protect us from burnout. We also explore the importance of listening to our own inner voice and intuition, rather than relying on the advice of others. Patricia encourages us to practice self-care and set aside time for ourselves, even if it's just one day a week. 

Tune in to learn from Patricia's experiences and discover how to nurture your own self-awareness and resilience.

Join Debbie Collard and Susan Ireland, certified coaches and co-founders of Seasons Leadership, in making positive leadership the norm rather than the exception on Wednesdays on the Seasons Leadership Podcast. (Selected by Feedspot as one of the Top 15 Positive Leadership Podcasts on the web!)

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Transcript

Debbie Collard: 0:07

Hey everybody, welcome to Seasons Leadership Podcast, where we're transitioning into summer from spring here in the Northern Hemisphere of the world. Spring represents awakening to a new energy, creativity and the opportunity to elevate our thinking, and that's what we're trying to do here today. We're going to continue to bring you actionable advice to inspire you to explore new possibilities, clarify your vision and start your new plan to improve your leadership and life today. Thank you for joining me, Debbie Collard and my co-host, Susan Ireland. As certified leadership coaches and co-founders of Seasons Leadership, we share a vision to make excellent leadership the worldwide standard, which drives us to partner with teams, individuals and organizations to increase and accelerate leadership excellence, a specific skill that helps leaders successfully achieve high levels of performance. You can learn more about this at Seasons Leadershipcom. You've experienced plenty of examples of mediocre or bad leadership. Join us in making positive leadership the norm rather than the exception. By listening and engaging in the discussions featured on this podcast, you help us bring leadership excellence to the world. Thank you for joining us.

Susan Ireland: 1:19

Today we're talking to Patricia Zinnecker and you might remember, Patricia, we talked to her back in October 2021, season 2, episode 9. So, Patricia, you were one of our first guests. It's so cool Yes, it is, and I can't believe it's been like that long ago. It just feels like yesterday.

Susan Ireland: 1:43

Yeah exactly it does to me too. So, I'm just going to do a short bio here, but you moved from Germany to Asia at the age of 21, and you built up companies in Hong Kong and Singapore while studying full-time linguistics and psychology. You know just a few things, right. You lived the startup life 24-7, which resulted in burnout at 27. So that describes your life. You know too packed, I guess I would say abundant right. You have a lot of things going on, and since then you've published a book. You have now a new podcast since we talked to you, so we want to hear more. What's going on. Tell us what's new with you.

Patricia Zinnecker: 2:40

What's going on. Well, that's a big question because actually so much is going on. But it was interesting when you just shared, like I mean, it's my life, of course I know it, but I listened to it and I was like, yep, okay, that's really a lot. Actually, when you like hear it from somebody else and have a year go, I turn 30 and people were like, oh great, So how old, you know, are you now? And I'm like 30. And they're like, no, maybe 40, you know what you experienced and you're survived. I'm like, no, believe me, it's 30. Really, Yes, Yeah, Sorry, Debbie.

Debbie Collard: 3:15

When we're teenagers, we want people to think we're older, right? But yeah now probably not so much.

Patricia Zinnecker: 3:21

But you know, 30 is a great age And I mean I'm totally fine. I know people who do not enjoy celebrating their birthday, but I believe it's great to celebrate every birthday because every reason to celebrate is great. So no matter how old everyone gets, it's just something I really enjoy, Right.

Susan Ireland: 3:38

Well, patricia, you know I want to go back on this because it is you know, you you are so busy, you've accomplished so much in your short life, and but you did have a personal breakdown in 2020. And so this is this is kind of refocused you And now you deal with companies to build resilient teams and you focus on mental health as a core value, but it still sounds to me like you're still super busy. What's the difference?

Patricia Zinnecker: 4:11

Well, you know, I love being busy And I love to work, so that's why I hope, and I think that's a thing that will never change. But the difference is now I know, when my alarm bells go off and say, well, stop it, please slow down, relax a little bit. So, it's not that I rush until to the end, and then I'm like, oh, I got a breakdown, it's more like, okay, it's been a lot, so maybe have a lazy day, you know, relax a little bit, do something I don't know other than work and then come back again. So that's the thing I was struggling after burnout actually is when people came to me and told me, yeah, now you know, just relax, take forever until you work again, do nothing. I'm like, hell, no, I got to do so many things.

Patricia Zinnecker: 4:56

And I remember when I took my time off and went to Italy for a few months just, you know, to recharge my batteries, to go through the breakdown with my therapist and all that stuff, and I was like I come with a book and she's like, really, I send you off for a time out to do nothing and you come home with a finished book, like that's not the plan. And I was like, true, that was not the plan, but that's just something that happens. So, you know, there's so much stuff going on and things coming up that I don't want to stop. It's more like that. I know now how to focus and burnout never comes from the hours you spend working, and I mean, you both know it right, you have really a lot on your plate as well and you work so much as well, but burnout comes and I really believe that from the disability to recharge means like people do not know how do I recharge, how do I relax, how do I enjoy life?

Patricia Zinnecker: 5:50

And there are people who work so many hours and they're totally fine. And then there are people who do not even work that much but tend to, yeah, experience a burnout. So where does it come from? And that's the thing Are you able to recharge, are you able to relax? And that's the part I learned. So, yes, I'm still running and I'm still hustling, but on a, let's say, on a healthy way and a healthy way.

Debbie Collard: 6:18

So, Patricia, the question that brings up for me is because people often tell me you have no idea how to relax that me. But I do know how to relax. And I know what things relaxed me. But how did you discover what those were for yourself?

Patricia Zinnecker: 6:32

Well, that's a tough question And, first of all, everyone is different. That's so important. When people ask me for a standard recipe like, what should I do? Well, sorry, I don't know, because every person is totally different. And that's the joy of my work as well, because I get to know so many people and so many different ways to recover, to recharge, to enjoy, and so when you ask me, how did I find out?

Patricia Zinnecker: 6:57

Well, I had the breakdown And I've really left everything behind in Germany. I went for a few months to Italy on a lonesome horse ranch in the middle of nowhere, like really in the middle of nowhere some wild boars and stuff, but that's it. All I did was really chopping wood, taking care of the horses, going out for hacking, something like that. But you know only things I really could feel. That was super important for me because my work is a lot online, so I, of course, see the result if I don't know get a notification or a message, and that's great, but I cannot feel it. So, when I chopped the wood, i, you know, could take in my hands and know, oh, wow, there was a tree and now it's chopped wood for the winter, and that was something that helped me a lot.

Patricia Zinnecker: 7:41

And then I also got back to my old hobbies. So I restarted again playing table tennis, playing the piano and did stuff I really enjoyed during school time And I tried everything out. That's the great choice of it, right, you can try out whatever you want. And I tried it a lot and figured out that's still the stuff I really love. And since then, I got back and restarted it, yeah.

Debbie Collard: 8:06

So just to add something onto that, it sounds from when you're telling the story that you discovered how to recharge and what's important to you through just being. You're on this ranch in the middle of nowhere, you're just living, you're just being.

Patricia Zinnecker: 8:22

Exactly, and that's when people are too motivated to get or to to be part of it or to start their personal development. If you're too much I don't know stuck in it, it will not develop. So you need to be open and let it go, let it flow. And that was super hard for me because I always was like if you really want to have something, you're going to get out there and work for it And sometimes sometimes there's luck. But if you are not open to it and if you're too busy, you will never see that luck coming by your way. So what I learned is that not everything must be hard work, not everything must be the complicated way. Sometimes you know it's the easy way and you can just relax at Joe and still get it. And so, yeah, I think that's the part be excited, be ambitious, but not too much that you're too focused, too stuck, so you don't see what's going on right and left to you.

Susan Ireland: 9:19

You know, it's also what's coming up for me is you said you're online. A lot of what your work is is online and it also feels like it's probably in your head. Yeah, and when you went to Italy, you got into your body Exactly. Yes, yeah, you were chopping wood. I mean, that's very physical, physical and it's visceral and you can feel it and you got more in touch, maybe, with how you were feeling in your body and not just in your head, which I know for me. Sometimes that's hard for me too, because I'm a lot in my head, but if the more I get in my body and pay attention to how I'm feeling, I think the more grounded I get.

Patricia Zinnecker: 10:09

That's a very nice thing, you said the more you feel it. And that's the part I missed because I learned not to listen to my body anymore, to my inner voice. My former business partners were like, oh no, you got to do this, you got to do this, we got to go there. So, I was totally focused and exact. But I forgot my inner voice. So, I knew it was somewhere deep inside me, but, you know, i just put it aside And this is what brought me into burnout.

Patricia Zinnecker: 10:37

And now what I learned, and what you just shared, is listen to your inner voice, listen to your body, listen to yourself. Actually, we know a lot of things to what we like, what we don't like. Most of the times, we already know how to decide. It's just that we do not dare to listen. And that's the thing. I can really only recommend it to everyone listening to the podcast just believe in yourself and listen to your inner voice, to your body, just to yourself, and you will realize a lot how Yeah, it's intuitive, i would say but how it's way more easier. Easygoing, yeah, easygoing, I think, is the word to describe it best.

Susan Ireland: 11:20

It seems like there's a lot of intelligence in our body, totally In our intuition, and we just need to trust it Totally.

Patricia Zinnecker: 11:30

And you know what, in Italy, what I realized is I tried not to take my laptop and my mobile phone with me. Okay, i didn't make it, because, you know, i wrote my book and all this stuff, but I didn't use the internet. So this means I had it at least so I could type and I could write, i could take pictures and all that stuff. That was fine, but I wanted to have really time for myself, not listen to the radio, not talking to people, and, of course, the horse owner I saw him every second day maybe. So of course I had a little bit of interaction, but that's the way I didn't get distracted from anything out there. There was no advertisement, there was no other person, there was nothing. It was just me, and this is hard. So really just spending the time with yourself with nothing that can distract you. So I mean, that's when you really get to know yourself, and a lot of people start crying because it's so intense and so emotional.

Susan Ireland: 12:31

It's totally fine.

Patricia Zinnecker: 12:32

So just cry, just feel it and let it go. you know, or let it, let it out, that's totally fine. Because once you've done this and one my therapist helped me a lot with that to get to know you, to get to know maybe what made you cry or what makes you happy, or actually how do you feel, what does it feel like to be you, and if you know that it will make everything easier in your life. until today, really every day, I'm so thankful, not for having a burnout, but for this way out and for this experience, because now I can really say I know myself so well. So whenever I have a business partner or any project coming up, I start and it just gives them kind of a list like I like that, I don't like this.

Patricia Zinnecker: 13:16

When this happens, I react like this. It's really kind of a manual, just so they know that it's not something they did, it's just something like my core values or something that triggers me. So, they know everything because I know it. but how many people do not know themselves and we're like I don't know why I'm angry, or I don't know why I don't like this, okay, but why don't you know you?

Patricia Zinnecker: 13:36

if you don't, also, how should I know? So, getting to know oneself It's deep, it's hard, but it's awesome.

Susan Ireland: 13:46

I want to like, like. I mean like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is, you know, one of the things we do on the, on the podcast, is we offer our listeners actionable advice that they can take away immediately. This little Patricia manual that you just talk about, like, like, when you work with somebody. This is like amazing. I mean. I mean, have you ever? I haven't. I wish that I had bosses that sat me down, you know, like when we first started working together and saying, like this is what I like, this is what I don't like, this is what you're gonna work with me.

Susan Ireland: 14:23

Oh my gosh, how helpful would that be?

Debbie Collard: 14:26

I was thinking the same thing, susan. I mean, if you but Patricia made a great point, you've got to know yourself first well enough. So you got to spend some time in probably that discomfort of whom I really? because if we keep ourselves super busy, we don't have time to sit there and go oh, this really makes me angry when this happens or we don't have time to really get ourselves really in depth, and taking that time to know ourselves is seems like tip number one for the leaders, right? taking the time, invest in yourself, knowing no podcast, no music.

Patricia Zinnecker: 15:00

Really, you and your thoughts. That's hard, but it's worth it.

Debbie Collard: 15:04

Yeah, and in nature is a plus right. And then the second part of that, because this breaks down into multiple tips in my mind. The second part of that is create your, your manual, your owner's manual, that you can hand to somebody and say you want to work well with me? Here's what you need to know. Yeah, those are. Those are great tips for for people. That doesn't mean they're easy, though, patricia. I think that's a really important point that you brought up is like it can be very hard to do that.

Patricia Zinnecker: 15:34

It can be, but I'm sure maybe many of the listeners are also. We know people like when a coworker shares with you oh, you know, i don't know be always in time, he's super angry if you're one minute late, for example. It's great that a coworker tells you that, but why couldn't my in this case the boss tell me like hey, you know, control these, super important for me, don't be one minute late. We starting sharp. Okay, done, deal easy. I know it, let's go.

Susan Ireland: 15:59

Yeah, I, you know, boy, this is I mean I could tell stories about this for here till the end of time Exactly what you said there, would you know, working in the corporate world Over the years, we did exactly that. We even had notes. So, we had bosses manuals that said, i mean even to the point where make sure that he has like m&ms, because if he doesn't get his m&ms he's cranky.

Debbie Collard: 16:35

I mean seriously, you're talking about.

Susan Ireland: 16:38

Oh, my goodness, I mean seriously, and you think about it in my mind, i'm thinking, and you know I did. I was not. My job description was not m&m getter, no, but it's easier in the end. We totally did, you know, and I, when somebody else would come in, i'd say like this and, like you know, make sure you get the notes, or whatever. You know, i mean it was a ridiculous actually when you think about it. And so, because nobody should have to do that, i mean we need to be empathy, we need to have empathy and we need to accommodate people, all of us, just because we're human, but not to that unbalanced point. And we need to take responsibility as leaders for our own manual and communicating to other people, you know, just because of we respect people.

Debbie Collard: 17:32

And so something else is popping up for me, and you use the word empathy, susan, and so say a leader is enlightened enough to know themselves well and can say to their employees okay, I'm new here, I'm your new leader, here's the how best to work with me. There's a second side to that. So many people would just say, hey, here's how I want things to be my way, or the highway right, and then that would be it. It's not about just that. It's about saying here's how I work best with people, or you can work best with me.

Patricia Zinnecker: 18:07

What does that look like for you?

Debbie Collard: 18:09

Yeah, what does that look like for you, Patricia? what does that look like for you, susan? and get to know them a little bit, yes, and so you can work well together, not just how they can work well with the right, not just a one sided thing.

Susan Ireland: 18:24

Oh my gosh, you know this is I mean. Could you imagine what the workplace would be like if everybody kind of did this?

Patricia Zinnecker: 18:35

I mean, in my opinion, it would be awesome. That's why I do it. But one thing I also want to share is, susan, when you say actually it's ridiculous because you were not hired to be an M&M getter right At the same time.

Patricia Zinnecker: 18:50

Being a leader means so many people are like okay, you're a leader means like you, i don't know, work more. You lead people, yes, but I always compared a little bit to, let's say, school, kindergarten. Means like you're there for hearing. What's their problem, I don't know miss their wives or husband's birthday, this is bad, or this didn't happen, whatever. So that's the thing you are. Also.

Patricia Zinnecker: 19:13

That's a super important part, and people always believe I have the feeling, yeah, do it on the side and you know a little bit of talking with them.

Patricia Zinnecker: 19:20

No, it's so important I mean, you know it, of course to really have that bond and a good relationship and listen to them. And so another I don't want to say advice who am I to give advice or to share advice, right, But what I love to do is, whenever I start with a new team, first I get to know each and every one of them and really have a call or a walk And they can tell me everything they are upset about, like really everything. Like no filter, let everything out and there's nothing, no bad blood or at all. It's just like let it all out and if it's out, let's restart. How can we change this and how can we have a good start? Yeah, so that's something I like as well addressed. Like the bad stuff is a big word, but you know what I mean like the things that upset them and don't make them happy, so it's not. It seems ridiculous, but it's so important.

Debbie Collard: 20:17

And if you had to do a shorthand of that. it's like connection through listening right, you listen, you allow them a platform to share with you and you listen to them, and that creates connection with coworkers, whether it's boss, employee or just peers right, it creates connection with the people.

Susan Ireland: 20:38

But I don't think I have something follows.

Debbie Collard: 20:41

Oh, exactly, patricia, only if something follows.

Susan Ireland: 20:44

Yeah, right. Well, what was coming up for me? it's about being a whole person. Yes, we can. We can't really defy like, divide ourselves into here's work, susan, here's home, here's parents, susan, here's friends. Susan, you know it's, we are whole people And we see each other as whole people and allow us to be whole people, i mean we feel better, we can contribute more when we're not. We're not doing this in our brain, you know, trying to trying to be, be these different personas, we're just being ourselves.

Patricia Zinnecker: 21:25

Totally And It's. Whenever somebody told me like, oh, you should be like this or you should be like that, I'm like, okay, bring only work, Patricia, and the other person said yes. Then I replied okay, but you know that I don't know 50, 60, 70, maybe 80% of myself is not here, so just saying only like 20% of power, 20% of motivation, 20% of creativity, whatever it is. So, I totally share your belief. We're always one person like 100% And of course it's the balance right. If somebody tells me all, you know, i don't know, my rapid is sick, yeah, okay, sorry to hear that, but yeah, you know, that's not the biggest part that should it take up here. So it's all about it's share it, but also focus on the worst stuff.

Susan Ireland: 22:10

Yeah.

Debbie Collard: 22:12

Wow. Okay, i want to go back to something you said to Patricia about people telling you how you should show up, or telling you what you should do, or you know what's important to them, of course, or the business, and it's. It's really the responsibility of each person to be able, so that they don't reach burnout, to be able to say what about that works for me? you know, in their own head, and examine Is this in alignment with my values? Is this, is this job a good fit for me? is this? and then to take steps to adjust it so that they don't burn out.

Debbie Collard: 22:56

And all too often I'll have clients come to me and say say Well, i don't have time to focus on me right now because there's a lot of other stuff going on. And I said and what do you think's going to happen If you do take some time to focus on you? I'm going to get even further behind and they may fire me. And blah, blah, blah. I said what do you think's going to happen if you don't take time to focus on you? because it's the same bad things that they're worried about happening. Right, and so it's. we live in a world where there's no shortage of people telling us what we should be doing.

Debbie Collard: 23:35

Or how we should be showing up or should act right, and I love the wisdom of the advice you shared to listen to yourself, what's important to you inside, what's important to keep you healthy and happy and thriving.

Patricia Zinnecker: 23:53

Actually, it's super interesting what you just shared, debbie, because just today I had a talk with a well, actually he's a client, but it feels more like a business partner And it was exactly the same feeling, like, oh, you know, i cannot focus on myself, there's so many stuff going on and I have to do this and this and all of that. And I was like, okay, if you have so many meetings and so many things you really want to take care of, then why don't you try to take one day per week off? Like it's called for me a no meeting Wednesday, which obviously is not today because it's a Wednesday and we're going to meet here, but I used to do it on a Wednesday, which is really a no meeting Wednesday. So I do not have a call, i do not have an online meeting, i do not have an offline meeting, and that's just the day when I'm able to do all this stuff I need to do, to check off my to-do list, to get it Yeah, not fall behind, and I know that it's not super easy.

Patricia Zinnecker: 24:51

And, again, that's a task, task And even if you have one or two meetings, it's fine. It's not always to be at a 100% solution or nothing. Even if you're able of I don't know having one or two no meeting Wednesdays per month, it's already a lot And you might already be able to focus on yourself. So never see it as a yes or no. And there's such a big gray area in the middle. Just just try it out.

Debbie Collard: 25:17

Yeah, absolutely, that's great advice, I remember, and it's been a long time since I did this. So, I Susan there's her third piece of advice for our listeners But I used to do that myself. I used to have one day that I designated as not going to have any meetings. I was just going to focus on all the actions I have. Therefore, it didn't keep me working a lot of hours a whole day after I'd worked a whole day, just to get the actions done right. So, I had time to do that. I'm going to. I'm going to reimplement that, Patricia, after talking to you, wow, wow.

Patricia Zinnecker: 25:57

What an honor that you implement something I say.

Susan Ireland: 26:00

Absolutely, and no one's bringing up for me too, because you know, our podcast is talking about leadership, excellence, and you know what is a leader, what it would. That's bringing up for me, because this, this idea of you know, my time is not my own and I've got all these obligations and I want to do it, and you know there's, but really, the most powerful leaders that I have experienced, and ones that I admire, own their own time. They have their boundaries and they are very clear on them And they're confident about that And people respect it.

Patricia Zinnecker: 26:50

Yes.

Susan Ireland: 26:52

So it's powerful when I think about that, because I know I often do not do that. You know, i let the noise of the world and people asking me, you know, and I will, i will let them permeate my boundaries and but it's really own my own time, and my time is defined by my values, my mission and goals in life, and and that's what my like guiding North Star is.

Debbie Collard: 27:25

It's like you always tell the story, Susan, about being on an airplane and the safety briefing. They say put your own oxygen mask on before you help someone else with it. And it's that it's. If you don't have boundaries and you're not, even if you have boundaries and you're not honoring them, then you're going to be burned out or not able to help other people because you didn't renew yourself.

Susan Ireland: 27:50

Right, well, and we're so attracted to those people, those leaders who have those boundaries.

Patricia Zinnecker: 27:58

And that's it. Sometimes I'm sure you heard this as well people say like Oh, you know, if I have boundaries, or tell someone else my boundaries, oh no, they are not going to like me anymore or they don't want to work with me anymore. This rarely happens, and if it happens, then maybe these are not the right people for you. Really, because every person should have and know their boundaries, and just today I shared a reel on social media which said every giver should know their boundaries, because a taker doesn't know and doesn't have them.

Susan Ireland: 28:30

Right, right.

Debbie Collard: 28:32

Say that again, patricia. Say that again, in case anybody missed it.

Patricia Zinnecker: 28:36

Every giver needs to know their boundaries, because the takers they don't know or they don't have them. And again, just like how to relax, how to recharge, it's up to me, it's my decision, i have to do it. It's not that I can say to somebody else oh you know, please give me a break or please send me to go recharge, please send me to holidays. No, it's really up to yourself and you can, and you even must and that's a tough word, that's a hard word, but it's only up to you. You must decide. Do you want to recharge? Do you I don't know what to have an evening off? Do you want to go on holidays? Whatever it is, it's up to every one of ourselves and that's something I was quite good at when I was young And then, through my experience, i really went totally the wrong way, until I learned that again It's up to me and I say that's my boundary, i have to take care of my boundary. You know, i compare it to a garden.

Patricia Zinnecker: 29:39

I say every person has their own garden and you can have I don't know a meadow in there, you can have flowers in there, you can even grow some veggies in there, you can plant trees in there, whatever it was. You can decide is there a fence, is there maybe a door? If there's no door, then nobody may come in. If there's a door, they cannot ask you to come in.

Patricia Zinnecker: 29:59

And if they just rush through and, i don't know, destroy all your veggies because they just ran through your garden, then you can say, hey, stop, you know it took me so much time, so much effort to take care of this. And you just run through and think that I have time, that I'm available. But don't you see I was busy and don't you see what you just destroyed, what I built up? And when people struggle with having or showing their boundaries, that's what I tell them. So what's your garden? Imagine your garden. And when you feel like there's a person who's just walking through your garden and you work and work and work again and it still doesn't work out, tell them that's your garden, that's your fence, and build a door for them.

Debbie Collard: 30:38

Or maybe even not, only certain people get the passcode.

Patricia Zinnecker: 30:46

Exactly, But again, it's up to everyone, like myself yourself.

Debbie Collard: 30:55

Yeah, it's our choice. It's our choice and it's there for our personal power, right? If we don't enforce that, we're giving it away. We're giving it away to other people because we're saying, hey, okay, i don't need time to recharge, i don't need time to do these things I love, i'll just keep slogging away at this and they're just going to keep taking because, as you said, they have no boundaries, right? So it's a great tip for any person, but especially leaders, to understand that it's our responsibility as individual to set those boundaries and to respect them.

Susan Ireland: 31:38

Absolutely. Well, and as leaders, we can model for the people who we are leading on what healthy boundaries look like, and we need to respect their boundaries. Back to your point, Debbie we need to work together, and that's I think that's a responsibility of an excellent leader, absolutely, i think we need to bring more.

Debbie Collard: 32:08

This is like Susan said earlier. we could talk about this for a long, long, long, long time, but that brings us to a good, maybe last, question place for today. So, Susan, if you don't have one teed up, I've got one ready for Patricia. I go for it, Debbie, okay. so Patricia, I think that's where you are now in life and what you know now. If you could only give one piece of advice to every person listening out there, what would it be?

Patricia Zinnecker: 32:38

Listen to yourself. That actually just came out of my gut right now, but that's exactly what we talked about earlier. Really, listen to yourself. And It's about balance and I cannot emphasize this enough. It's not about only listen to yourself and do not care what others say, because other people, they might give you a hint, they might help you, you know, they might give you a little nudge in a good way. So don't be ignorant. I don't say be ignorant, but just listen to yourself and do not only listen to others. Do listen to yourself and to others and combine these two and people will really enjoy being with. Usually I think everybody can check this out for themselves. Usually are people who know themselves listen to themselves, but also listen to what other people say or even offer or need.

Debbie Collard: 33:33

Wonderful, excellent advice. You've shared so many great tips with people here today. Patricia, thank you for being with us again, and I'm sure you will be a regular guest on our podcast.

Debbie Collard: 33:48

Yes, as we close up today, susan and I wanted you to know something about a program we're getting ready to run. Leading through change is a multi-module program and it includes self-paced guided reflection exercises which may help you get in touch with yourself, like we've talked about with Patricia here today, plus facilitated peer group sessions focused on the participants' leadership challenges. We at Seasons Leadership offer a leading through change program each quarter because we think is a really valuable tool for all leaders in these times of overwhelm and these times of tremendous change. And so we're often asked, when people see that offering from us, what is it really? And it's kind of hard to describe because it's so unique.

Debbie Collard: 34:31

This program was created by co-founders of Reflection Circles Kate Phillips-Kaiser, bettina Brahma and Catherine Twedell. Their overall mission is building confidence, capability and connection in a complex world. Together, they bring their strong backgrounds in leadership development, clinical and organizational psychology, group systems, business and technology to develop the series and programs that are offered through Reflection Circles. Leading through change is one of those programs. Susan and I have both done the program individually. Susan was an overachiever. she's done it multiple times.

Debbie Collard: 35:07

And we found it so helpful that we are offering it through seasons. But because it's hard to explain and sometimes takes some back and forth discussion, we decided to offer our patrons on Patreon a live event where they can experience a mini version of it, a taste of the leading through change, And that's gonna be held on July 11th 2023 at 5 pm Pacific time. So put it on your calendars. If you're not yet a patron, you can sign up on patreoncom and that's spelled P-A-T-R-E-O-N dot com slash seasons leadership to become a member and join the conversation. We'd love to connect with you as we build our community of excellent leaders.

Susan Ireland: 35:54

Well. thank you, listeners, for joining us for the Seasons Leadership Podcast. We hope you take these words of excellence with you on your leadership journey. Remember, no matter what level or role, you can become more than you are today, and the world needs you. When you fulfill your unique purpose, you strengthen the organizations and the communities in which you live and work. Thank you for being a part of our positive leadership change And tune in next time for more leadership, excellence, conversations and insights, like we did today with Patricia Until next time. we are sending you positive vibes for new energy, creativity and opportunity to elevate your thinking as we transition into the season of summer. Thank you.