Understanding the Impact of Diverse Leadership Styles with Robert Jordan

Join us as we talk to Bob Jordan, CEO of InterimExecs, about how leadership styles impact teams and organizations.

Show Notes:
Our discussion starts with Bob introducing us to the concepts in his new book he wrote with Olivia Wagner, “Right Leader Right Time - Discover Your Leadership Style for a Winning Career and Company.” Together, we unravel the four distinct leadership styles - fixer, artist, builder, and strategist - and the potential harm that can occur when one style is overused.'

In our interactive discussion, we delve deep into the importance of creativity in leadership and how leaders with different leadership styles can effectively communicate with their teams. We emphasize the vital role of 'artist energy' and the necessity of complementary skills. We also shed light upon the fascinating concept of imposter syndrome and how it affects leaders. Bob introduces us to the unique FABS Leadership Assessment, a tool designed to help leaders gain an understanding of their own authenticity and confidence.

As we move towards the final segment, we discuss the exciting rise of interim leadership roles and project-based leadership. Bob acquaints us with his innovative concept, Red Team - Rapid Executive Deployment, a quick response solution designed to assist organizations in need. As our conversation wraps up, we revisit the insights gleaned from “Right Leader Right Time” and discuss the potential of FABS. Our episode concludes with a poignant reminder of the importance of authenticity in leadership and utilizing your unique leadership potential to make a tangible difference.

Bio: Robert Jordan is the CEO of InterimExecs, which matches top executives with companies around the world. Based on research with thousands of leaders and companies, he and Olivia Wagner wrote "Right Leader Right Time: Discover Your Leadership Style for a Winning Career and Company," and have launched the FABS Leadership Assessment, a free assessment at RightLeader.com designed to help leaders and organizations perform better. Jordan also authored "How They Did It: Billion Dollar Insights from the Heart of America," and helped publish "Start With No," Jim Camp’s bestseller on negotiation.

Resources:
Right Leader website

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Hello everybody and welcome to summer. With the Seasons Leadership podcast, where we celebrate the season of being in the flow, moving forward and taking actions that are full of energy. Throughout the season, we will bring you actionable advice to improve your leadership and your life. Today, thank you for joining me, debbie Collard and my co-host, susan Ireland. As certified leadership coaches and co-founders of Seasons Leadership, we share a vision to make excellent leadership the world-wide standard. You can learn more about that at SeasonsLeadershipcom. Join us in making positive leadership the norm rather than the exception. By listening and engaging in the discussions featured on this podcast, you help us bring leadership excellence to the world. Thank you for joining us today.

Speaker 2: 0:47

And thank you, bob Jordan, for joining us today. Bob is the CEO of Interim Execs, which matches top executives with companies around the world. Based on research with thousands of leaders and companies, he and Olivia Wagner wrote write leader right time discover your leadership style for a winning career and company, and have launched the FAB's leadership assessment, a free assessment at rightleadercom designed to help leaders and organizations perform better. Jordan also authored how they Did it billion dollar insights from the heart of America and helped publish Start With no Jim Camps Best Seller on Negotiation. And Bob has a couple of websites and he's on Twitter, youtube and LinkedIn and we will include those all in the show notes to this podcast. But welcome, bob, it's great to have you.

Speaker 3: 1:51

Thank you, susan, and thank you Debbie. It's a pleasure to be with you, so we're going to dive right in, even virtually exactly.

Speaker 1: 1:59

We're going to dive right in, bob, with our discussions on leadership excellence, and so the first question I have for you is I'm really fascinated by this concept of right leader, right time. Susan and I both had 30 plus years in corporate America and before we graduated and became podcast hosts and leadership gurus, and one of the things we experienced a lot was that there was often, for many reasons, the wrong leader at the right time or the right leader at the wrong time in cases. So tell us a little bit about what you do and and the premise behind this right leader, right time concept.

Speaker 3: 2:44

Thanks, debbie. So the book comes out of our work at interim execs for a matchmaker around the world, and we've been approached by about 8,000 executives over the past 10 years. When 8,000 people from 50 countries show up, you you've got to get organized, and so we developed ranking and scoring and screening and there were some interesting revelations or findings as a result of getting to know lots of leaders and then being having this ringside seat where, where we would match between a client and a CEO, cfo or full executive team and see what worked and what didn't work. So, based on that work, we started thinking about this concept we call leadership style. Style is the short, the shorthand way of saying that an accomplished leader, over time, develops a process and an approach and more of a system, or put it this way, they do it more so than the average executive, where it may just be whatever you know, whatever works today.

Speaker 3: 3:54

And so there were these patterns and the reason we wrote the book, frankly, was because of the, the negative, the vast majority of leaders showing up we would describe as having careers and leadership journeys that were okay but not exceptional, and that was disturbing. And if you had to boil it down to one thing. We would say it was being all things to all people, and that doesn't work for any of us. It's very easy to say and all of us would say, oh, I would never do that. But in fact a lot of career journeys for leaders do look that way and and we wanted to put out something really more for people earlier and younger in their careers to say look, there are these patterns of excellence, but there are also these dangers and and do well to try to avoid them.

Speaker 2: 4:48

Bob, can you talk more about that? Like what are the patterns of excellence?

Speaker 3: 4:54

So we gave them four labels, Susan, because we saw these four distinct styles, ways that there were process and approach.

Speaker 3: 5:04

And the labels are fixer, artist, builder and strategist, so we can dive into each one. They're very distinct. I will say up front we are not trying to pigeonhole any leader into saying you're just this thing. The way we look at it is. It's a little bit like DNA. They're just four proteins or they're called nucleotides. But your Aunt Mary and your favorite pup or your cat, all of us are just four different kinds of DNA, but in infinite variation. And we look at leadership that way and would say that we three on this call, we have individual, unique styles in the way we lead and for everyone that is as unique as a fingerprint.

Speaker 3: 5:55

What we would say further though is that exceptional leaders tend to have a dominant leadership style or a dominant in a secondary.

Speaker 2: 6:04

Okay, well, let's follow that up with. Then. What are the pitfalls that you saw?

Speaker 3: 6:14

Well, in any style, I think it was Ralph Waldo Emerson. He's a brilliant philosopher and he wrote this essay called Uncompensation.

Speaker 3: 6:24

and I'll spare all of your listeners from having to read it because the punchline is is the thing that is your greatest strength can also become your greatest weakness, totally yeah. So, for example, you know fixer is the energy that sees the world. You know fixer needs to go into a burning building. But if you're dominant fixer, you have to keep on going into burning buildings throughout your career. You need to stress situations in which to thrive. Okay, all right. Well, there was a famous guy prior to generation of business. He was nicknamed chainsaw L. He had taken over Sunbeam. It was a company that made blenders and, as chainsaw implies, he had his success from just wholesale you know decimating companies.

Speaker 3: 7:16

And eventually it turned out there was financial fraud going on there. So so you can take a particular trader style, and when it goes too far you get disaster.

Speaker 2: 7:28

Yeah, so like to reiterate what you're saying. I think what you're saying. So if I was a fixer and I got my identity and I got all my you know accolades from being a fixer, I might tear things down, maybe unintentionally or unconsciously, but just to keep fixing, because that's what I do. Well, it's funny.

Speaker 3: 7:50

You say that because one of the first you had mentioned.

Speaker 1: 7:54

We did a prior book a decade ago, called how they Did it.

Speaker 3: 7:57

Billion Dollar Insights from the Heart of America. And one of these hotshot company founders we interviewed, you know, in the out of the blue, in the middle of the interview, he said you know, if I put a fixer into one of my companies and it's not broken, he'll break it just so he can fix it. And that kind of like blew me away, like what I mean makes sense. Well, here you know, fast forward, we're doing all the research for right leader, right time, and we had identified a lot of exceptional leaders and did in these four different categories. And so, fixer, we had a lot of leaders and I thought, boy, they're gonna be so offended, but I gotta try this anyway. And we would get in these recorded interviews and we would say so, this quote you know, if it isn't broken, break it. And none of the fixer leaders were offended, all of them.

Speaker 3: 8:50

You know, we were on Zoom calls and all of them were like, yes, so what? But if it had been me, it'd been like, oh, that doesn't sound good, but that's just the wiring and that is the point of these styles. And so, you know, we make the point about artist energy. Artist energy is what I would describe as compelled to your peril. I mean, I am strongly artist, energy, and that's great, you know when innovation is called for, but I can't turn it off, and so I have to be surrounded by people who are far better operationally than I am. In my company, and you know so my co-author and business partner, her wiring has strongly built her energy. And I would say more broadly and I'm sure you are both, you know, expert and veteran you have to have complementary skills on a team or it's not gonna thrive.

Speaker 1: 9:52

Absolutely so. This is fascinating. So to take the next step in that conversation, because your book and your premise is right leader, right time. So if you go in and you assess, say that this leader that's most needed for this particular spot is builder energy I'm just making this up and builder energy Do you also work with the people that are there to say, okay, if you hire this person who's this strong builder energy, dominant builder energy, you're gonna need to have around them on their leadership team or shoring them up this energy and this energy to balance out the team. Do you have those kind of conversations with people?

Speaker 3: 10:43

We do, but we don't insist. We presume we're always working with very smart people, companies that show up. They can have needs that doesn't mean they're not very smart and to where? And being proactive, debbie, as you're saying. That is reminding me.

Speaker 3: 11:06

we interviewed a number of organizational psychologists in addition to all of these leaders, and the reason really was we were asking like, are we crazy? Like this is a premise and we want to get science behind it, which is part of the reason we launched FAB's leadership assessment, this three-minute free tool. One of the psychologists we interviewed he said you know, it makes perfect sense. He said you have to be spiky in just a few ways on a team. And we're like spiky what? And he meant well, if you were looking at a graph of all of the skills, abilities, capabilities that any team needs, you've got all these different kinds of traits and that any one individual on the team needs to be exceptional, needs to spike in a few different traits. But none of us are going to spike on all of them and it will do no good if everyone is spiky at the same points.

Speaker 3: 12:03

Right the interesting thing about the modern world is because there is so much technology and transparency, is that the day and age of the manager was like walking around and like, hey, how you doing, we're done. You can do that out of friendliness, but in the sense of that being additive to the team, that's gone. You know, even the leaders and managers must be a creative, truly a creative, or spiky, for the effectiveness in the team.

Speaker 2: 12:34

Right. What's coming up for me is I'm thinking about hiring, because, as some of the coaching I do is talking to people about people that they're hiring, how to go about it, how to select the right people, and the tendency, I think, is to select people like ourselves. But what I'm thinking, what I'm hearing from you, is well, that's wrong, because then we'd be all spiking at the same point, right.

Speaker 3: 13:05

Yes, I mean, I agree with that, susan. You know, in any given hiring situation you have, you know the organization has its criteria. It's got the job spec of what it is seeking and it could be that it is additive I won't say duplicative, but it could be that it's additive to what the skills are. You know, for the rest of the team I'm more generally looking at that team that there's complementary skills. You know my office I'm looking out in another office here and there's a very bright team of about 30 engineers about 10 feet away from me and they're all very skilled in aspects of coding, right, so you could look at them generically and you know you're all a bunch of coders and technology architects, but of course that's not true, and so within that, there's still a lot of nuance in terms of how

Speaker 3: 14:05

they're performing. You know part of what I would say in terms of hiring and you know, look, what we want is the practical takeaway For folks who are listening, are going to view us. You know, for what we're doing today, I would say have the conversation. You know, if you think you're wiring is that you're dominant artist, tell your team because if that's authentically who you are mostly for the plus, but also for those cautions wouldn't it be great if your team knows more about you and if it can spark a conversation for you to learn more about them?

Speaker 2: 14:47

That's great. I mean, in fact, I was just going to.

Speaker 3: 14:51

I'll go ahead what I'm just going to say. I think one of the problems in modern you know workplaces that even if we all were back to being in-person and work, that doesn't necessarily mean that we're coming into closer connection or necessarily more authentic relationships, and that is what is needed for teams to perform more highly. And so if part or all of that interaction is going to be by Zoom. God help us. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:24

Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 15:25

We're social creatures and we need each other and we need connection. And in work, there's no substitute for.

Speaker 1: 15:33

And in leadership excellence, which Susan and I are very passionate about. We believe the difference in good leadership and excellent leadership is that connection. Is that connection with the people you're leading and sharing a little bit about who you are. So you're not this just robot like MDCEO kind of thing, right, you are a real person and they can feel that from you and it inspires them to know more about you. Oh, bob, we know he's got strong artist energy, so this will really appeal to him or them.

Speaker 1: 16:11

Just knowing little tidbits about the leader, whoever that is, is super important to achieving that excellence, both for the leader and the team, right? The other thing that's coming up for me here with this is the right time piece of this, right? So I had a colleague once that liked to say when leadership changes happen, oftentimes it's because there's a cycle to what an organization goes through and during that cycle there's a time when someone has to be the one who comes in and creates the organization or focuses it in a certain way, and then what comes behind them is the builder of roads and schools and the infrastructure and the processes and so on and so forth, and it goes through these cycles. And so does that resonate with you and tell me about the right time, part of your equation.

Speaker 3: 17:15

Oh, it completely resonates and, as you're saying, it reminds me of one of the leaders we interviewed. His name is Michael Sonnenfeld. He's founder of something called Tiger 21, which is like a visage for wealthy people and it's a community and groups, and he had a phenomenal career before that in real estate development and we had a set format for these interviews of trying to get it the kind of core wiring of a leader and didn't wanna bias it by saying upfront hey, we've got this new theory fixer, artist, builder, strategist who are you?

Speaker 3: 17:56

We didn't wanna do that from the get go, so we got done a lot of exploratory questions that we would say this is what the theory is how does it?

Speaker 3: 18:06

grab you and do you see one of you in that? Any reactions in terms of your businesses? When Michael heard fixer artist, builder strategist, he said you know. He said I'm thinking about this. He said I was an investor in a company and it was in crisis and the CEO was phenomenal, he said, but you know, once the crisis passed he wasn't so good anymore.

Speaker 3: 18:34

And you know, can you relate to that? Which is just, this is the way the world is and it is not to say of any of us oh, you have a limited shelf life, you know you have your use and that's it, the way the world is now. It is not necessarily the end of you at one company, although you know most of us. You know my daughters are in their 20s and what are the stats on how many different changes they will have in job and potentially in career and their lifetime, you know, in coming years. So I mean I have to say the book we wrote right later, right time, could not have been written 30 years ago.

Speaker 3: 19:21

The world was not organized in such a way that if you had your genius, your expertise, say in fixer energy, that that was so much of a transportable skill, right, like you could have like if you were in a big company, like one of the executives who we were writing about. He was in a very large global ad agency and he was going from. He was troubleshooting from country to country over a span of years and he could do that. Once he solved one country's problems with the client relationships, he could move on. But the modern world is now so much more organized for you to be able to move with your unique genius and not necessarily have to stay at the same company.

Speaker 2: 20:14

It's. That's just profound, bob, because I see it, I was at the Boeing company for 30 years, you know, and it was a whole different thing. I loved it and you know, but and it was not unusual I mean, I wasn't the only one that was there for 30 years. It was a career, you know. That was it. And now I did a lot of different jobs inside the company. But now when I talk to people they just they're mind blown that I would stay someplace for so long And-.

Speaker 3: 20:49

Well, you know it's your credit, susan, but what are the odds that anyone could last in any company never mind if it's Boeing for 30 years? That would be a unique outlier. Now, right, right, maybe you could make it at the post office that mail will still be delivered in 30 years. But Boeing isn't the Boeing in 30 years. Is not the Boeing now, right, it's not. And so all of their people and their needs and those folks in their interest. You know, as you know, a lot of survey research since everybody went into COVID and there's a profound shift. You know, the millennial cohort is not a homogenous thing. There's an upper and there's kind of a lower. The upper part of the millennial is more traditionally wired like baby boomers, which is what's my pay and the hours and all of that. And the younger end of millennial, that's not their wiring. Their wiring was very much more gratified in COVID with the ability to be remote and to have more freedom and flexibility.

Speaker 2: 22:00

It ranked higher than pay, yeah yes, I see that so as a leader, how do you respond to that? How do you lead a business when you are faced with this environment, with people you know having different ideas about work?

Speaker 3: 22:21

So it's a great question. And now, because you know my co-author and I you know we had seven years of research into writing the book my answer now is profoundly different than it would have been. Because now my answer is well, that totally depends on whether your wired is fixer, artist, builder or strategist. Okay, completely, because according to those four different mindsets, your answer is not going to be the same. Right, it absolutely cannot. I'll give you, I could give you one answer from a strategist point of view. And, susan, because you're at Boeing, see if you can relate.

Speaker 3: 23:04

Because our definition of strategist is leader at scale, it is leader within complex or vast organization where the size is completely beyond personal span of control Stephen Covey's phrase. As opposed to, we see a lot of fixer artists and builder energy. Those leaders tend to be teams of five, 10, 50, 100, maybe 150. They are much more dependent on personal relationship with everyone in the team. Trust, that is a known quantity. Strategists, yes, they have personal relationships in the corporation, but it's not with everyone, because it's too much, it is too vast, and so, and the language is different. And so strategist leaders, their language always includes mentorship, loyalty, longevity, cross-training, gratitude towards an organization and all of those phrases you never hear, those from fixer artists, builder in the first part of the description of who they are. You don't hear it Well for strategists, like one of the leaders we interviewed.

Speaker 3: 24:16

Directly to your question, he said and this was a leader who had 14,000 people under an insurance company. He said you have this vast middle. He said the top end of your team or organization. They're firing on all cylinders. You don't need to motivate them, these people, you just get out of their way. He said in any vast organization there's also the bottom and something's going to happen to the bottom. There's gonna be something there. He said but you have this vast middle and if you're gonna compete in whatever space you are in now, that's your challenge. Because there you cannot assume that everyone's motivation is the same as your motivation. And it won't be. It absolutely will not be. Someone is there and they're there for the paycheck, and somebody else is there and it has nothing to do with the paycheck why they're doing what they're doing. That's right. How's that grab you?

Speaker 2: 25:15

Oh my gosh, I feel like you're talking to me.

Speaker 1: 25:20

You're strategist, I guess so we each spent over 30 years at Boeing and worked together, and we're working together again, which is wonderful, and we're lucky in that we get to work with, through our coaching practice, lots of different types of leaders of lots of different types of businesses.

Speaker 1: 25:42

And so this is I'm definitely after we get off the recording here, bob I'm going to take this at rightleadercom the FABs test and I think I'm gonna recommend it to some clients of mine as well, because it's fascinating to figure out. What's coming up for me is a lot of my clients feel like they have imposter syndrome and I know that word's been put out there a lot recently. But when they're talking to me they're like I don't know if I'm the right person for this role and if you know what if I fail, and what if people get to know me better and say, oh, what is that person doing in the job? And so I think this might be a good tool for them to give a little more confidence in about how they're showing up and what they might need around them.

Speaker 3: 26:38

Debbie, I gotta thank you because what you just said, you just gave me an insight I haven't had before, because you hear sometimes in terms of strategy and people will say, well, you know a business or some idea, there has to be an enemy. There's gotta be an enemy and, in a way, I think the enemy for us in terms of having developed this concept of FAB's leadership styles. The enemy it's imposter syndrome, because what I really hope for for people is to get a little bit more insight into your own authenticity, your own genuineness, and you don't even need to buy the book, you know. This conversation alone, I hope, gives somebody an insight into their own wiring and if they wanna take the assessment.

Speaker 3: 27:28

Great, it's three minutes. You know, the spoiler alert for you and anyone else's is the final question you take it and it's gonna give you a result. Say congratulations, you're wired, likely, it's gonna say, for you strategist, and it'll give you a secondary, probably as well. The final question is gonna say did?

Speaker 2: 27:47

we get it right?

Speaker 3: 27:48

Yes, no, and we wanna know because this is where we're trying to put science behind it. Yeah, so I'm gonna give you an example of a premise we have that I don't know yet. I have something I believe, but this is gonna have to prove out through tens of thousands of people taking it. Okay, here's what it is.

Speaker 3: 28:11

Fixer and builder energy, we believe, are what are called linear styles, which is to say, for example, as you and I were recording this, you know there's a very famous blow up called FTX crypto platform and a blew up right, and the leader brought in the court, appointed a fixer, a CEO, and this person's career is entirely around fixing. I can guarantee you he's not working on another company or another project. He is laser focused on FTX and that is all okay. Artist and strategist energy, we would say, are parallel, which is to say, artists, for sure, must work on more than one project at a time, and strategist, almost by definition, especially in a major corporation always multiple things on someone's plate, always. So are we right or wrong? Well, that's the kind of thing we're testing out through the research here.

Speaker 1: 29:17

It'll be fascinating to see where that goes and where it ends up, but I suspect, just from what I know in my little corner of the world, that you are definitely on the right track. I was thinking of, actually, people's pictures were popping up in front of my face in my brain as you were talking and I was putting I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay, they're definitely in the fixer or builder linear mode. So it'll be fascinating to follow that. Bob, this has been just amazing conversation and I could probably talk for a much, much longer, but I'm gonna leave it out to my partner, susan, to take us into a final question for you today.

Speaker 2: 29:56

Okay, well, this is maybe more practical. So I know lots of people who are looking to hire leaders for their companies. Super hard to do to find the right leader at the right time for the right job. So you have a business that does that right for interim leaders and and there was other different types of leaders, like maybe part time. Can you tell us about that, and is it only for big companies, or could it be for small startups or nonprofits? What's what's it about?

Speaker 3: 30:40

Well, thanks, susan. So we run an organization called interim execs. This has become incredibly popular in the US. When we started pretty much felt like we had this little niche to ourselves. It is grown up and so it's now fairly common, this concept of interim, fractional, project based leadership roles. It's only going to keep on increasing because this is the way the world is, has come to be organized, and all of us in our organizations are now these hybrids of permanent people who are working alongside contract based folks that in some cases look almost you know interchangeable. So in our case, we developed a lot of metrics around, not just hard skills and background and track record, but to try to get it attitude, style right in terms of how people are wired, and we're trying to help us make a great match.

Speaker 3: 31:45

Now, in our case, everything we do is whether you want to call it interim, fractional, project based we're not headhunters. We don't do permanent search. A lot of times we work alongside those, those folks. We do regular wiring and process for how we do that, this that luckily works. You know, overwhelmingly most of the time we get this, we get this right. You know it's a private business. We have one of our internal mantras is perfect or not at all.

Speaker 3: 32:23

And so we think yeah, we think it's just a match made in heaven between an organization and a lot of companies of all sizes are doing this now. For us, it's mostly it's the what's called the middle market or the lower middle market, but you know, if it looks like it's a great relationship, terrific. Let's, let's go make this? Happen If it doesn't?

Speaker 2: 32:46

Let's not.

Speaker 1: 32:48

That's fantastic, okay, I have to confess to make I lied. I have one more question for you before we end today. So the question is what's next? What are you most passionate about now?

Speaker 3: 33:03

Oh well. Well, for one thing, it is that after Olivia and I taking, you know, six years on the book and launching the leadership assessment. You know, no, no one does a business book because they think they're going to make money at it right, and it should be really clear on that. But I do really hope a lot of people take the assessment because I feel like I'm going to continue to learn for many years to come from that and that that's going to keep on fueling a richer and richer conversation. The other thing we've done We've done this concept called red team.

Speaker 3: 33:41

We, when we looked at just the top one or 2% of executives who we work with, red stands for rapid executive deployment. We started running into more and more executives who wanted to save, especially when it comes to fixer energy, wanted to save the impossible. You know, make the impossible, save in companies, even to the point of no pay, write your own check, save it. And so we're doing more of that. We're not becoming a private equity fund, but it is interesting to look at situations, organizations that are really in desperate need of help and and how can we be of service here? And and they could be nonprofits and other organizations. So it's. It's always very interesting. There's no two days are the same and this is not boring work.

Speaker 2: 34:34

Yeah, wow, I think, bob, you're a futurist.

Speaker 3: 34:40

Yeah, I'd go with that.

Speaker 2: 34:41

I go with that. I think so. I'm going to. I'm going to definitely be following you to find out what's happening and what's what I need to look forward to in the future.

Speaker 3: 34:51

You guys, you guys are great coaches because you have given me two gifts and we're recording this thing for other people. But you know, between futurist and now, I know the enemy.

Speaker 2: 35:04

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 35:04

I know the enemy because it is we. We want to be who we are. You know what's the Shakespeare line to that? I know self be true. I mean the more that you can figure out you, you know it's just, you're going to, you're going to have a more joyful life.

Speaker 2: 35:21

Yeah, oh, this has been wonderful.

Speaker 1: 35:25

I just thank you for the compliment.

Speaker 2: 35:27

Yeah, yes, yes, it's been a wonderful conversation and so I think it's time to wrap up and I'd like to thank our listeners for joining us for the seasons leadership podcast. We hope you take these words of excellence with you to help strengthen the organizations and communities in which you live and work, and join us and making excellent leadership the worldwide standard by subscribing to our community on patreon. Remember, no matter what level or role, you can become more than you are today. Visit patreon, pat r e o n dot com. Slash seasons leadership to become a member today and start working toward your full leadership potential. We would love to connect with you as we build our community of excellent leaders. Until next time, we hope you enjoy the positivity of this season of summer, where you are in the flow, moving forward and taking actions full of energy. Thank you and thank you, bob, thank you Debbie.