Navigating Chaos and Building Strong Relationships with Andy Erickson

Join me, Susan Ireland, as I talk to Andy Erickson, a senior consultant who works with clients throughout North America to develop leaders, coach teams and transform organizational cultures.

Show Notes:
Have you ever considered how your perception forms your reality? During my conversation (outside!) with Andy Erickson, a seasoned consultant with an impressive track record in the construction and manufacturing sectors, we talk about the power of perception and how it can significantly influence our personal and professional lives. Andy touches on the critical role of language and how our reactions shape our experiences.
 
Imagine navigating through a chaotic work environment and finding the strength to rise above it all. Andy takes us through his experiences, shedding light on the methods he has used to stay focused and strategic amidst chaos. We delve into the world of biases and how they affect our relationships even before we meet people, and how choosing our reactions can alter the outcome of situations.
 
Leadership comes with its challenges, including the quest for acceptance and dealing with various prejudices. We discuss the liberating feeling of accepting that not everyone will like us and the importance of getting the right support. The conversation ends with the emphasis on building relationships in business and putting people first. Andy shares his experience in large organizations and how a clear mission can create a more productive work environment. 

Bio: Andy Erickson is a senior consultant at JMJ. He works with clients throughout North America to develop leaders, coach teams and transform organizational cultures. His specialties include High-Performance Projects and Incident and Injury-Free culture. Andy’s consulting approach is informed by his own experiences as an Operations manager and background in the aerospace industry for 17 years.

 Resources:
“Friendship arises out of mere Companionship when two or more of the companions discover that they have in common some insight or interest or even taste which the others do not share and which, till that moment, each believed to be his own unique treasure (or burden). The typical expression of opening Friendship would be something like, "What? You too? I thought I was the only one." – C.S. Lewis

Join Debbie Collard and Susan Ireland, certified coaches and co-founders of Seasons Leadership, in making positive leadership the norm rather than the exception on Wednesdays on the Seasons Leadership Podcast. (Selected by Feedspot as one of the Top 15 Positive Leadership Podcasts on the web!)

And now you can join our community of values-based leaders on Seasons Leadership Patreon at Patreon.com/seasonsleadership. At our gold-level, unlock our exclusive Lessons in Leadership Column from our Resident Seasoned Leader David Spong, a lifetime member of the Board of the Malcom Baldrige Foundation and our Leadership Elements Series.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Welcome to Summer with Season's Leadership Podcast, where we celebrate the season of being in the flow, moving forward and taking actions full of energy. Throughout the season, we'll bring you actionable advice to improve your leadership and life. Today oh, excuse me, I'm here today, susan Ireland, with Andy Erickson, and Andy has agreed to do this experiment with me and see if we can do a podcast like In the Field.

Speaker 2: 0:38

Outdoors alfresco Outdoors yes, alfresco.

Speaker 1: 0:41

So, andy, tell us a little bit about yourself. What have you been up to lately?

Speaker 2: 0:45

I work for a consulting company called JMJ Associates and I do a lot of work with front line leaders on big construction jobs and steel mills and factories. You and I met each other a long time ago.

Speaker 1: 0:59

A long time ago.

Speaker 2: 1:00

And when we both worked for an airplane manufacturer here in the Northwest.

Speaker 1: 1:04

Yes, yes. So it's great to be with you again. It is. You're a fantastic leader and I really appreciate the insights that you're going to give us.

Speaker 2: 1:13

We're not setting the expectations too high. I like to lower them.

Speaker 1: 1:17

Okay, all right. Well, let's just jump in here. So, Andy, you know, one of the things that I've been hearing a lot about from people that I've been talking to clients and others is the workplace seems to be very chaotic these days, and I don't think it's limited to any industry or any business or any size of business, but it feels like there's a lot going on. There's a lot of employee turnover there is. The economy is weird. I think people are worried about their jobs, and so the question I have for you is being a leader in that environment, how do you get above the fray the day to day firefighting, I guess enough to be able to think strategically more long term, more than just the next fire.

Speaker 2: 2:34

I agree. I see the same sort of increased level of chaos, or just churn. I've often wondered is this part of just getting old? Does any time somebody turns 55, approaching 60, does the world just begin to seem chaotic, or is it in fact, you know, really different here in 2023? And I think it's probably a little above. One of the things I'm trying to do in my work and also in my life though you talked about getting above the fray I find it super, super helpful when I can find a little bit of remove I'm not saying above, but like be able to step back and recognize that there's a distance between how things are and how I feel about them. You said it yourself People feel a certain way, or it seems a certain way, and I think those are good words to remember. The world is a certain way, and then I'm feeling about it. You know there's nothing good or bad out there. There's no chaos out there. It's all through my perception of it.

Speaker 1: 3:40

Wow.

Speaker 2: 3:42

And there's nothing chaotic until I put my level of expectations and how I think it should be and how I want it to be, and how I remember it being when I was young, and it's different now and all that stuff starts within me Now. It's not to dismiss it, because it is real as heck Right, right.

Speaker 2: 4:03

But I like to think that I've got a fighting chance anyway of noticing my own you know relationship to what's going on around me. If I get that, it's me, I got a fighting chance of changing it, whereas if it's the world, well now I'm stuck and I'm kind of having to cope with whatever's going on. Do you see the difference?

Speaker 1: 4:24

I do, andy.

Speaker 2: 4:25

That's profound, it's true, it's true, it's easy to say and so hard to do, because I'm so worried that this podcast turns into a. Follow Andy around and see how often he does it in his own life, and I'd be delighted if I have like a 350 batting average, right, yeah, yes, that's great fish, but he's not so反. But that's, for me, is the game of just noticing that. Okay, the world's really occurring through my perception of it and I have a say. I have some control over how I perceive the world.

Speaker 1: 4:54

Wow, I think we should just turn it off and that's it. Ha ha, ha, ha, ha ha. Yeah, it's true. Do you have a practice, or how do you when you catch yourself feeling chaotic and upset, or yeah. What do you?

Speaker 2: 5:18

do when I'm running workshops or doing coaching. One of the taglines or bumper stickers we always say is that relationship is the foundation of accomplishment, and usually I'm working with a big company or a big project and they're up to something big. They wanna complete this work without having any injuries on the job, or they want to meet this audacious schedule that the client has set for them, and we start by talking about how important relationships are to that. And that is an easy sell. I mean people get that.

Speaker 1: 5:54

Do they?

Speaker 2: 5:56

It's not complicated. We can have a conversation like, hey, who's gonna get more done together? Like, if you and I have just been assigned to go do a task, are we gonna be more productive? If I know a little bit about you, I let you know a little bit about me. I have an understanding of who you are and what you're up to. Heck, maybe I get to know you even better and I understand how to communicate with you and what's, the more I connect with you, I don't have to like you, but I have to see you as a person and be seen as a person. Well, the communication's gonna get better. The feedback's gonna be more immediate. I'm gonna be more willing to raise my hand and ask for help. And whether you're talking about you know psychological safety or trust or motivation, we tap into more of our abilities when we're connected as people. So if you wanna go to work on something big, we say, start by looking at your relationships. And that's like I said. It's not. You don't have to twist too many arms to get that Right.

Speaker 2: 6:56

But then we turn the heat up just a little bit and we say now that's relationships that we have with people. Let's get complicated just a little bit and a little more esoteric. We have relationships too, things that happen in our lives. We have relationships to the events that are going around us. You have a relationship to the technology that we're using to record this thing. Right.

Speaker 1: 7:19

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:20

Your relationship to that is I'm not confident in it. I'm not sure it's gonna work. You've probably got some amount of. Am I smart enough? Is there somebody who should be doing this and not me? Let's make up a story. Somebody else might have a resentment. Why the heck isn't Darren over here doing this for me? All that stuff is my relationship to this stupid little camera on a tripod that we're looking at. It's the same deal. That relationship to the thing that's going on around me is the foundation of my accomplishment. So if I just notice that that's, the first practice is just to say, oh, it's not that this camera sucks or this camera's awesome, this is just a camera. It's my relationship to it.

Speaker 1: 8:05

Wait, can you go back when you said your relationship to the thing is the foundation to your success?

Speaker 2: 8:11

The foundation of how much. It defines how much you're able to accomplish.

Speaker 1: 8:16

So it could be with my relationship to my technology to this because it is not confident that in fact, I might not be as successful as I could be if I was more confident or trusted it If something breaks down right now. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 8:40

And you're feeling you're already started from place of I'm not confident or I don't know how to do this, and I remember all the times in the past where it's let me down and I have a story about myself and I'm just not good at this stuff. Now something breaks.

Speaker 1: 8:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 8:54

Your chances of going into that and figuring out a solution are much lower. Yeah, then if you have a relationship to say you know what, I'm smart enough, I'm good enough and dog gone and I can handle this, the Stuart Smiley or whatever that said or anything was, but if I, it's your attitude matters.

Speaker 1: 9:16

And.

Speaker 2: 9:17

I am more open to the possibility, and I wanna underline that word. The possibility, if I have, my relationship to this, is yes, I can, I want to, I'm willing, I'm committed. There's a greater possibility that I'll be able to deal with whatever the upset is on this camera, and that applies to everything in our life. Right, my relationship to the thing going on around me determines the amount of possibility. Is this, is it possible for us to do this great thing and create this accomplishment? And so I think yes, with the practices. The practice is to start using words. It starts with language and using words that emphasize that I feel it this way, or I see it this way, or I'm relating to this this way, or I'm experienced. Instead of saying that camera is no good, yeah. Or instead of saying, hey, this idea is a bad one because you're labeling the thing out there, speaking of a way that you know, like I don't feel confident in this camera or I don't understand, you're owning my relationship to it.

Speaker 2: 10:29

That's the first practices in the language.

Speaker 1: 10:31

Owning the relationship.

Speaker 2: 10:33

Yeah, don't label that stuff out there. Label what's going on in here, because this is what really matters. That's the first practice I think of. And then, yeah, the second practice is just then noticing it and saying is this the right relationship, is this sufficient?

Speaker 1: 10:51

How about? Is this what you want? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 10:55

Yeah, yeah, and you know there are times like this doesn't always work every single time, but it works more often than not. If I can choose a relationship to a situation where I can say you know what, I'm committed to this. I think it's possible for something good to happen here. And it's up to me, I'm responsible. Those are the three power relationships. It's possible, yes, I'm responsible, it's up to me. Nobody's going to come to help me and I've committed to it because it's going to fail, but I'm going to get back out and do it again. It's possible, I'm responsible and committed to it. If I can choose those attitudes, I have a bit more possibility.

Speaker 1: 11:35

Not only that, I mean that is a powerful position to be in.

Speaker 2: 11:38

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:40

Yeah, it's not a victim, right? Whoops, sorry.

Speaker 2: 11:45

Good to go to so.

Speaker 1: 11:48

Yeah, this is. We're not cutting anything out of that?

Speaker 2: 11:51

Oh, we're not.

Speaker 1: 11:52

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:53

I got a relationship to this mistake, that I've got a relationship to looking good on the camera. Okay, I'm going to reframe that.

Speaker 2: 11:58

No you said the word. How much of our life has spent being a victim? Right, and this is where, if we talk about modern events or current events, this is where I worry that I feel a victim of so many things going on in our society, in our world. I don't like that political figure or this infectious disease came and I feel like a victim. It's hard, it's easy to feel like a victim nowadays.

Speaker 1: 12:30

Right, yes it is, yes, it is.

Speaker 2: 12:31

There's a lot of people who are making a lot of money selling us on the idea of it's awful. It's them that's doing it to you and we're not in control. There's a lot of money to be made selling it and I'm afraid that if there's something going on nowadays, it's that we feel like more victims. I think maybe there's more victim thinking.

Speaker 1: 12:55

Wow, and that's hard to live with. So say, if you have a whole group and the majority of people are feeling like victims, that is hard, that's hard to collaborate, it's hard to be creative.

Speaker 2: 13:12

There's no possibility. Yeah, there's no sense of it's possible.

Speaker 1: 13:16

Right, wow, well, that is no possible. And then the trust is low, yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:23

Yeah, yeah, it's never gonna work. You know, it's the whole Debbie Downer, it's the whole negativity, yeah. So I think you know that's maybe another practice. You ask about practices using the right language, talking about my reaction of things, my experience of things, with some ownership, just noticing that I'm what my relationships are. I think another one that touches on victim is we've got to stop complaining. I mean, when I complain I'm generally speaking, I'm talking about something out there that's wrong.

Speaker 1: 14:01

Right.

Speaker 2: 14:01

I'm telling you my story. That's about what's going on out there, and it's rarely an empowering story. It's rarely a story that says I'm in charge here, I can do something about it, and it's possible. Man, when I'm complaining, I'm a victim of whatever it is I'm talking about, and so that's maybe a third practice is notice your complaints and knock it off. Stop it, stop it.

Speaker 1: 14:29

Yeah, what happens when people are complaining to you?

Speaker 2: 14:34

Yeah, well, that's. That's hard, because here's the other deal, remember I talked about we have a relationship with people.

Speaker 1: 14:40

Yes.

Speaker 2: 14:41

Right. You and I have a relationship with each other because we've known each other for a long time and there's a level of trust in how much we will and won't say. There's boundaries. You know what we will and will not feel comfortable doing. I also have a relationship to you.

Speaker 1: 14:58

Yeah, which is?

Speaker 2: 14:58

different from my relationship with you, and this is the super subtle point. We each have a relationship to people around us. Before you walk in the door, I have a expectation of how it's going to go, or I have a sense of you know how I'm likely to feel. That's my relationship to you, what we're talking about when we're here together. That's my relationship with you. But I have a relationship to people like before I even meet them. I'm going to buy a car. I haven't met the car salesman yet, but I got a relationship to that car salesman before I even know what her name is, because I have a story about car salesman right, right.

Speaker 1: 15:40

Could this be like biases? Oh yeah, that kind of thing, yeah, 100% biases past experiences, assumptions, and they're negative and they're positive.

Speaker 2: 15:49

You know, yeah, um, I forget what we were saying, that we got onto this, but that's another no it's a If somebody is complaining to you.

Speaker 1: 16:00

Oh right, right, right, how do you do that? So how?

Speaker 2: 16:03

Thank you so good. How often, when I'm listening to somebody complain, do I think to myself. You know what they always complain. This is what this my relationship to this person is. They are a complainer, Right, and in that moment I'm a victim of that person because they come into my life and they piss all over my desk and they share their negativity. And so I got to choose in that moment to say, huh, okay, this thing is happening. I get to choose my reaction to it. Now I get to choose. I get to decide. Am I going to try and true this person up and point out their habits of complaint?

Speaker 1: 16:38

and try and adjust it. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, probably not gonna work. I'm gonna make a difference, unless that, person comes specifically asking for help.

Speaker 2: 16:49

So then I got to choose to say oh, I got to choose a more powerful relationship to say you know what I get that this is where this person is in their life. They're doing the best they can with what they have and what they're up to, and this is how it's showing up. But I'm gonna not let this stuff get on me. Yeah, I'm gonna try and redirect the conversation to say you know what? I hear you Totally get it. Can we talk about what we're gonna? You know so now? So now what?

Speaker 1: 17:14

Yes, what are we gonna do about it?

Speaker 2: 17:15

Yeah, so now, yeah we're like okay, yeah, you might be right, you might be wrong, I don't know. But now what? Right and man, if I can just choose my relationship to the person where I'm not gonna get dragged into their complaining and kind of get brought into their victim cycle and I can just say focus on okay, so got it. But now what?

Speaker 1: 17:35

What are we gonna do?

Speaker 2: 17:36

Yeah, it's again. It's not easy. No, it's not easy.

Speaker 1: 17:41

No, no, it's not. No, because people like I mean all of us. This is not people out there, it's all of us Like to be together in the misery. There's like it feels kind of good to like, be right to be you know validated.

Speaker 2: 18:01

Yeah, like it is terrible out there or whatever, yeah and I hate it when somebody comes in and they're good at two pants and they got as righteous. Well, actually, if you knew a little bit more, you'd see it this way. Oh, you know, screw you. And I sure as heck don't want to be that guy because I want to fit in.

Speaker 1: 18:18

Yeah, right, right right.

Speaker 2: 18:19

So it's, it's, it's a constant, constant battle, and I think we should be gentle with ourselves. So if we can do this for 15 minutes a day at first, you know, maybe get to 30 minutes and maybe Maybe. So you know.

Speaker 1: 18:34

Well, and the other thing is, I think I've got so many things going in my mind, but it's also helpful to have people to talk to about this. Yes, so I so appreciate you, so I can say, Andy, let's talk about this to get me. You know, it's another perspective If I'm around negative people or people feeling like victims, and I'm feeling like I'm surrounded yeah like, like I need to throw a lifeline out.

Speaker 2: 19:07

Yeah, Well, that's what we talked about earlier. Like you said, getting above the fray, or or or stepping back and having perspective.

Speaker 1: 19:14

Yes.

Speaker 2: 19:15

I'm not stuck in that thing. I'm going to call a time out, you know, get off the court and be able to watch it. Yeah, that's so much what the value you and I find in our conversations is. I get to step out of Andy and Andy's little soap opera life.

Speaker 2: 19:28

Yes, yes, it's true, yeah, and I just get to watch, and I think it's all of us. What you're doing as a coach, isn't it? I mean, that's a big part of it is kind of holding up a mirror, but putting the person in a safe place where they can reflect on themselves and how they're doing Right, right, it's, it is.

Speaker 1: 19:45

It is so important. That is exactly what I do as a coach. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we also call that. You know, getting on the balcony.

Speaker 2: 19:54

I think that's a. Ronald Heifetz was the guy I first heard that phrase from getting on the balcony, getting out of the pushing truck.

Speaker 1: 20:00

Right, but it's important. So you get on the balcony but then you have to get back down on the dance floor because you got to be up and down, up and down. And then there's even getting to like get on a drone and get even higher and look down. Sometimes you've got to. You got to go way high to actually see what's happening.

Speaker 2: 20:21

I think we're gonna need a bigger balcony Right. This is gonna yeah, we got leveled, we got layers to this stuff. Yes, yes it is true, that's funny.

Speaker 1: 20:31

Well, um, so the other thing about this is is talking about this like having people to talk to is so important? Whether it's a coach or a friend or a colleague. But another thing that's been coming up with clients and people I've been talking to and it's happening a lot, so I think it's. I mean, I know it is common, but it was with me too. When is that? When you're managing people and leading people, you know we're people, leaders are people and we wanna be liked, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:08

And when we're working really hard, doing our best but the best intention, and then people, some people just don't like us.

Speaker 2: 21:16

Yep.

Speaker 1: 21:18

And they maybe talk bad about us and in the organization and that is really makes me feel bad and it makes the job harder. Yeah, I mean, what do you? Have you experienced that? Do you hear?

Speaker 2: 21:37

it. What time is it? Yeah, it's been about 15 minutes. But yeah, yeah, of course I have, of course I have. You know, I say this in a very glib way, like, hey, you don't need to like everybody, but you gotta know them as, see them as a person and let them see you as a person. That is so easy to say. People nod their head, yeah, yeah, yeah. But when I get into it, I kind of do want it to like me. Yeah, I really do.

Speaker 2: 21:59

Yeah, I really do, because I think that's hardwired into us as a species. Also, you're the caveman that wasn't deeply attached to having the rest of the tribe like them Probably lived less long and reproduced less often than the caveman, who was deeply committed to being fit in in the group and making sure that everybody liked her or liked him, and things like that.

Speaker 2: 22:23

So it's hardwired into us Again, though I think, if you can notice it, and it's not a situation where the reality is they don't like me. The reality is I feel like they don't like me, or I'm afraid they don't like me, or I really want them to like me. See, I can do something about that, right. Maybe I got a better shot at doing something about that than I do. They don't like me.

Speaker 1: 22:51

Right, well, and you can't make somebody like you.

Speaker 2: 22:55

And yet isn't that the freedom? Like if you get to the point where that person let's say and this doesn't ever happen, except maybe in movies, where you have a conversation with a person and they'd say look it, I just don't like you, I'm never going to like you, like you know, you look like my old football coach and who I hated, and there's no chance that I'm ever going to like you In some respects, Susan, it's freeing.

Speaker 1: 23:21

Yeah, well, that's true, right, Because I don't have to try anymore.

Speaker 2: 23:24

It's not my fault, I didn't screw up. That's a them thing, not a me thing. And so again, it's choosing a different relationship to the person like I'm not gonna. You know, if I have a relationship of wanting them to like me, attached to them, liking me, striving and frustrated that they're not liking me, I'm going to be miserable and ineffective. But if I can get to a place of they have their feelings, I have mine. I can't. That's on their side of the table. I can't manage the stuff that's going on their side of the table and manage my stuff. It gets a little bit less fraught.

Speaker 1: 23:58

Right, right, well, and it's again. That's a way to kind of step back, yeah, to step back and see something and not be so in it.

Speaker 2: 24:12

And meshed or attached to it.

Speaker 1: 24:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really hard. You know, and I'm reflecting on when I was at Boeing.

Speaker 2: 24:24

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:25

So I was in a large organization and so you know, of course I wanted people to like me and I think, for the most part, most people did.

Speaker 2: 24:33

I think they did.

Speaker 1: 24:34

But not everybody. I had some people that really did.

Speaker 2: 24:38

And let's be honest, bring gender into it, yeah, Bring race into it. Bring whatever other biases come into it. Right, I think in my zero experience, but just watching women at Boeing, they had a much narrower lane or a needle to thread so far as being liked and being respected and being effective. It was hard because all this other gender related noise and that doesn't even bring into all the other biases that come in Right age and whatever, but I do think so.

Speaker 1: 25:14

I think, although I wanted to be liked, it wasn't, I didn't feel as badly as some of the people I've been talking to, and I think maybe it might have to do with the support I got in the organization. It was pretty big right. So I mean, I was confident that I knew that I was doing the best job I could with good intent.

Speaker 1: 25:41

I wanted the best for all my employees and the organization that I was working with and I asked for help and all of those things. So if somebody just really didn't like me, I could feel confident that I was doing the best I could. I was doing the best I could and I got support from people around me saying yes, you are doing a good job, Don't worry.

Speaker 2: 26:04

You're doing the best you could, and you're doing it the way we do it, the way it's done here at Boeing.

Speaker 1: 26:09

Yes, yes, and you're doing a good job now. So that's it, and we got your back.

Speaker 2: 26:14

That's right.

Speaker 1: 26:15

Yeah, I think we got your back is important, so then I think it maybe is different for people in smaller organizations.

Speaker 2: 26:22

Yeah, if I'm running a small tax accounting or a small, I don't know picket, a small business and I'm the boss and I've got three employees, there's no, this is how we do it. Here. It's like no, this is how you do it and I think you're a jerk.

Speaker 1: 26:40

Right, it's way more personal yeah it's personal right now.

Speaker 2: 26:44

It's all up in there, and I think that's why sometimes people in those positions feel an urge to kind of harden up, to fence us out. Like, okay, well, I'm not gonna worry about liking you too much because I gotta be able to fire you someday, or I'm not gonna Demonstrate a whole lot of vulnerability, or I'm not gonna be flexible because I don't want to be in a position where you're gonna take advantage of me. I see that in my own life, but I got it.

Speaker 2: 27:11

You know, in a small business when my ego is at stake, it's not so wonder that the defenses go up, yeah, but before you know it, you do that long enough and I'm gonna drift into having a relationship to my employees not my relationship with my employees, but my relationship to my employees that they are a Short-term asset to be managed. They're potentially a threat. I got a heap an eye on them and I think that's one of the reasons that sometimes small organizations are gonna struggle Right to fulfill their potential because, again, the leader Totally understandable, totally forgivable Chooses the relationship to the employees that says you know, you're a potential problem that I have to manage Right.

Speaker 2: 27:58

Wow it's hard.

Speaker 1: 28:00

Yeah, it is hard. Again, I think I don't think there's a solution or a trick or something to practice that would solve this, except, I do think, having support talking to maybe other Founders or other you know, people that are in similar size organizations and have similar problems. Yes, you could like bounce these things off of each other, so you're not so alone.

Speaker 2: 28:32

CS Lewis had this great quote that friendship starts at the moment when somebody says what you too. I thought I was the only one.

Speaker 1: 28:39

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:40

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:41

Yeah, so I could. Coach is good, I think, a coach or a mentor, but I do I. I agree with CS Lewis. So it's a coach, doesn't have the same.

Speaker 2: 28:54

There's nothing like having somebody else yes, he's done it, it's been there, it's doing the same thing you are Now. Here's the other thing, and and this is where, like, I ran my own business for about three or four years and I learned so much about why I shouldn't run my own business Okay, so I learned I learned why I'm happier working for the man, and so I may be.

Speaker 1: 29:13

Wait.

Speaker 2: 29:17

Help me. Help me, lord. I'm trying the it might this, what I'm about to suggest, might be deeply naive. I Still say, though, yes, that relationship with other people who are in the same position and getting that support is useful. I still say there is value in choosing a relate and investing in your relationship with your employees.

Speaker 1: 29:40

Oh yes, oh yes, totally yes.

Speaker 2: 29:42

Not, not not a relationship to them where I'm trying to get them to like me or approve of me, but a relationship where I want to understand who they are as a person, see them as a full human being and let them see me the whole way. That's not a guarantee of success, but again, I still go back to I really believe when we have a foundation of relationship there's more possibility there.

Speaker 1: 30:05

Oh, I totally agree with you. It's you're treating people as people, not as assets.

Speaker 2: 30:12

And you seeing the full and respecting the full doesn't guarantee they're not going to turn around and not show up for a shift.

Speaker 1: 30:18

Right, right right but, and it doesn't guarantee that they're not gonna take advantage or Yep behave. Adley you don't want them to or or that kind of thing, but at least you are coming from a place of integrity and aligned with your own values.

Speaker 2: 30:38

Yeah, it's also the the thing. Again, I could hear myself saying this it's gonna be sound naive, the relationship to the work I'm doing. You know I am. I have a few leaders that I work around when their relationship to the work they're doing is that they are in service of the people with whom they work. The business they're in is building their people. Wow, they do it in the, in the, in, you know, in pursuit of Operating a consulting company right right. That's an outcome, though.

Speaker 2: 31:13

Yeah right you know the leaders who I respond to and resonate with the most. They kind of have that people in the foreground and the business of the background. That was my mistake at Boeing and I think that's part of what makes Boeing a tough place to live. The airplane is in the foreground, the people are in the background. Right, you know, and that's what you know. You and I, over the course of our careers, had to learn to manage that a little bit right.

Speaker 1: 31:38

So, yeah, it's hard, because if you, you've got your mission, yeah, there's no business started.

Speaker 2: 31:49

You know where our mission is to develop the men and women who work here and make them feel whole. Yeah, doesn't sound like a great business plan. You're not gonna get a whole lot of funding. If that's what you got, a shit, hey, there's a market for this idea and we're gonna have it, we're gonna sell it. But I'm telling you, if you don't have the people, Right you're gonna get there.

Speaker 1: 32:09

It's true. Well, and I guess it's just we try to simplify things too much, right? I mean, it's both. You know you, you've got it. You can't, you can't pick one or the other, you got to do it all. Mm-hmm and yeah, if you don't have a mission, that what you're trying to accomplish you you don't have a business.

Speaker 2: 32:28

Yep, that's right.

Speaker 1: 32:30

And if you don't have the people, it doesn't matter what your mission is.

Speaker 2: 32:37

I'm working with a guy right now who is the victim of a classic situation that we see in so many organizations, and I know I lived through it. I don't know that you did, but you know, if you go on a construction job site, the foreman who's directing all the other carpenters more often than not she was promoted to foreman because she was the best carpenter and had been around.

Speaker 1: 33:00

Yes, it's been around for a while.

Speaker 2: 33:02

Yes, and so now we're gonna take our best foreman and we're gonna give her a clipboard and tell her that she's the. So we're gonna take the best carpenter, oh, give her a clipboard and tell her she's our foreman now, and in that bargain we've lost a great carpenter and we've gained a crappy supervisor.

Speaker 1: 33:16

Right? Well, because because no training, no experience.

Speaker 2: 33:21

Totally different job.

Speaker 1: 33:22

Could be totally different job. Oh, yes, yes.

Speaker 2: 33:25

Totally different work, and so I think that's one of the reasons why, though, as a manager of a small business or a manager of the organization, I've got to set a responsibility with all this people stuff, and it's it's nebulous, it's fuzzy, I can't measure my progress, I'll make gains one week, but then something happens over the weekend, and it feels like I'm back to square one with that person. Yeah, it'd be so much easier to go over here and work on this technical part of my business, right, right, and that's when I do that, again and again, I begin to ignore the people stuff, I begin to remove myself. The people become an impediment to. I see the people as a hassle getting in the way of my doing the work, and, oh man, the work is the people.

Speaker 1: 34:12

That is true. That is true for so many situations that I've seen is like somebody who's really good at something and expert at something. They love it, they get a lot of validation for it, and then they either get promoted or they want to be promoted, or they start their own business or whatever, and they, without realizing they can't take that expertness.

Speaker 2: 34:41

Doesn't translate With them.

Speaker 1: 34:43

I mean, you're always an expert in that, but there's additional broader requirements, expectations, in order to make that next level work.

Speaker 2: 34:56

I was very, very good at being an industrial engineer, being a planner, I was a master chart maker and for my sins I got put into supervision and I was overnight an apprentice and but my ego was all belt around. Oh, I'm a master of this and I developed some status and that's really hard.

Speaker 1: 35:17

It's really hard because it's a very vulnerable place, not knowing, and especially when people you're in a position like if you're put in a leadership position and you don't have the even the understanding of what's expected, and yet people are coming at you and you've got all these problems.

Speaker 2: 35:41

Well, and now take it to a small business person. You know the classic example somebody opens a bakery because they are a great baker and they love baking. Well, it turns out, now I just got to spend most of my time paying the bills and getting insurance and dealing with the inspectors who are coming to the I don't get to bake anymore.

Speaker 1: 36:01

Yeah, no, that is super true. Do you have any answer for that?

Speaker 2: 36:14

I'm gonna keep, I'm gonna be the broken record. Don't be a victim of it. Just notice, step back, get some removed to say it isn't that this is a reality, it's that this is what I'm feeling about this reality, right right right.

Speaker 2: 36:29

You know it's talking about taking ownership. Saying this is how I'm feeling is what I want. You know it's finding allies, but I think ultimately it's being responsible for how I'm feeling about the situation. Like this is my thing. I'm not gonna blame the business or the employees or whatever. It's a methane Cause. So long as it's a methane, I got to fight and chance it, fixing it.

Speaker 1: 36:58

Yeah, it's a choice. You have choices. Yeah, I have agency.

Speaker 2: 37:02

Yes, yes where if it's a them thing and I'm in complaint and I'm in victim, I'm gonna be stuck there and my chances of success are much, much lower. Now, that's not a very, that's not a very whiz bang solution.

Speaker 1: 37:18

Yeah, well, and it's you know, we have these ideas of success. Like what does success mean? Sometimes it's I wanna make it to a certain level in an organization, I wanna make so much money, I wanna have a huge house or whatever it is. We've got these ideas of what success are, and so that's how I do it, you know. So that's the only path right there is. I'm gonna keep going and I need to be promoted into these different types of jobs and which kind of gets us wrapped in, that gets us into places. Maybe that we're not the most happiest.

Speaker 2: 37:56

Well, that's the story of my life, right.

Speaker 1: 37:57

Well, back to the baker. You know, example, I loved being a baker, but then you know, so I think I'm gonna wanna have a business, but I'm not a business person and I'm not happy being a business person. So then it's the question, the choices do I go back to being a baker, you know, but does that?

Speaker 2: 38:20

you know it doesn't pay very much, Like yeah, it's not as respected and I gotta explain to my dad that now I'm sold to bakery I'm going back to work for somebody else in their bakery. There's a whole lot of ego things that get into it.

Speaker 2: 38:34

But then, at the end of the day, you know it's okay, well, yeah, but am I happy? Right, and that's. You know, that's how I, as you know my story, that whole experience of becoming a supervisor and just being lousy at it, largely because my ego was in my way and I wanted people to like me in a situation that was guaranteed to create situations, you know, where I wasn't going to get liked. You know, it was that whole experience, in seven years of banging my head against that rock that had me, you know, have to start reading up and getting smart and fast forward 20 years. And here I am telling other people how to avoid the mistakes that I got into.

Speaker 1: 39:12

I mean, we all go through it, right? That's how we learn. I mean you know. I mean I wish we could find a way to learn, fast forward the learning.

Speaker 2: 39:21

Well, and but maybe that's the thing. Whatever the crummy situation that I'm facing right now maybe that's one of the maybe that's the last move that we can talk about is to say choose your relationship. Oh, this is happening. Oh, check it out. I'm growing right now. Let's oh no, oh, you know that pain that I'm feeling. Oh yeah, that's like stupidity, leaving the body. I'm learning something right now right, oh, that's good.

Speaker 2: 39:41

Okay, good, this jerk employee. Wow, so much to learn from this situation. Thank you for providing. Thank you Providence, for providing me this opportunity to learn.

Speaker 1: 39:51

It's so hard. Though it is hard. Well, we gotta do this again, and I really hope this experiment works.

Speaker 2: 39:59

We should have hit the record button. We've just been talking to a dead camera. We have not. It's okay, we are making. I'm joking.

Speaker 1: 40:04

I'm joking oh gosh my relationship to that. Yeah, see that. No confidence, no.

Speaker 2: 40:08

No confidence. I appreciate you, my friend. Thank you very, very much. Oh thank you.

Speaker 1: 40:15

Good stuff, thank you, and I'm gonna read that outro here. So thank you to our listeners for joining us for the Seasons Leadership Podcast. We hope you take these words of excellence with you to help strengthen the organizations and the communities and the businesses in which you live and work, and join us for making excellent leadership the worldwide standard by subscribing to our community on Patreon. Did you know? We're on Patreon?

Speaker 2: 40:44

I didn't.

Speaker 1: 40:45

Oh well, there you go. Remember, no matter what level or role, you can be more than you are today. Visit Patreon P-A-T-R-E-O-N dot com. Slash Seasons Leadership to become a member and begin working toward your full leadership potential. We would love to connect to you, with you, as we build our community of excellent leaders. Until next time and you never know if we're gonna do another one of these we hope you enjoy the positivity of the season of summer, where you are in the flow, moving forward and taking actions full of energy. Thank you, and thank you Andy. Thanks everybody. Bye. Update 40 stayed.