Ep. 224: Are FemTech devices worth it when struggling to conceive? with Naomi Davis, PA

FemTech is a big industry but how helpful is it to "the little people" especially those trying to conceive? We talked with NaProTechnology trained PA, Naomi Davis, from Vivify Fertility & Health, about how she's seen FEMTECH support and restrict women trying to grow their families. She lays out the major types of FemTech devices, some pros and cons, and her best advice for those trying to conceive. We live in a technology-driven age, which means we have to be EDUCATED about what helps us vs what doesn't.

I'm thrilled that Naomi came on the show today because she is a part of The Fertile Hive, an online community led by NaProTechnology-trained medical professionals who want to provide support, encouragement, and education to those struggling to conceive. The Fertile Hive is one of our partners during the book launch of Woven Well: A Christian Woman's Guide to Reproductive Health, Fertility, and Wholeness which means that if you pre-order the book before July 7th, you'll get free access to an exclusive webinar from the Fertile Hive team! EVERY pre-order qualifies you to attend and learn about resources for education and empowerment when trying to conceive. Pre-order the book wherever you buy your books (Amazon, Christianbook, B&N, Bookshop) and then register here: https://www.wovenfertility.com/pre-order-woven-well.

The Fertile Hive is an educational community led by Dr. Kristina Pakiz and Naomi Davis, PA-C, offering expert guidance and sisterly support for women navigating infertility. Together, we cut through the noise to create clarity, confidence, and hope on the fertility journey.

GUEST BIO: Naomi Davis is a board-certified physician assistant dedicated to providing holistic women’s healthcare that honors the body’s natural design. Inspired by her own experience with irregular cycles and PCOS, she practices NaProTechnology under the mentorship of Kristina Pakiz, integrating nutrition, exercise, and evidence-based medicine to help women find answers for pain, irregular cycles, infertility, and menopause-related concerns. Naomi trained at the St. Paul VI Institute and University of Nebraska Medical Center, and lives in Omaha with her husband and three children, where she enjoys sourdough baking and spending time outside.

NOTE: This episode is appropriate for all audiences.

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Ep. 219: Practical Use of Mira Hormone Monitor with Fertility Awareness Methods

Transcript

Caitlin Estes (00:25)

Welcome back to the Woven Well podcast. Technology is advancing, obviously, at a rapid rate, especially in the reproductive health space. And so one area that we've talked about here on Woven Well is FemTech. But how helpful are they specifically when facing infertility. I've invited Naomi Davis, NaPro-trained physician's assistant at Vivify Fertility and Health in Omaha, Nebraska, to talk about what their clinic suggests as far as FemTech goes for those specifically who are struggling to conceive.

Naomi, welcome to the show.

Naomi Davis (00:59)

Thanks for having me, Caitlin. It's an honor to be here. 

Caitlin Estes (01:03)

Okay, let's talk about FemTech a bit. We've had an episode with one of our other sponsors, Mira, earlier this summer, but you and I are gonna talk a little bit more big picture initially. for those who may not be familiar with FemTech, how would you describe it? What is it? How has it developed? That sort of thing.

Naomi Davis (01:23)

Yeah, so I would first demystify FemTech, so feminine technology, so using technology for women's health. So any device or wearable could be considered technology. In addition, I would even consider the Creighton Model Chart technology in a sense. But in today's episode, we'll be talking more specifically about technologies designed to kind of monitor a woman's menstrual cycle to help her to determine her fertile window to increase the chances for pregnancy. So those women who are trying to get pregnant in the use of technology. Many different devices have come onto the marketplace in the last several years. There are more and more every year. I categorize them or break them up into probably three groups typically. So you have devices designed to measure urinary hormones.

Caitlin Estes (02:02)

Yeah.

Naomi Davis (02:18)

This would include the clear blue fertility monitor, the anito monitor, the Mira monitor, like you mentioned before, and then proof test strips would be another example. Also your standard like LH test strips or other ovulation predictor kits. The second group that I break things into are basal body temperature devices. And these devices are designed to pick up the subtle shift in a woman's temperature after ovulation under the influence of progesterone. And of course, a simple thermometer can be used for this, taken each morning.

Other women will wear something that monitors temperature either overnight or all the time. TempDrop, the Aura Ring, other smart rings, many other devices out there, smart watches to measure temperature. And the third group is devices to measure cervical mucus. And an example of this would be like the kegg device, which is a device placed inside the vagina for about two minutes every day to actually measure cervical mucus.

Impedance to say when that mucus is most fertile during the cycle and help the woman to figure out when she's maybe ovulating.

 Caitlin Estes (03:22)

Great. I would imagine with so many options that there are pros and cons to each, especially when struggling with infertility, struggling to conceive.

Naomi Davis (03:32)

when they come in to see us for the first time, they may not have a Creighton model chart. And then I myself have been able to use several of these alongside my Creighton model charting just to observe, you know, maybe some of the pros, but also some of the drawbacks with these devices. And so with the urinary hormones, something specific to the Clear Blue Fertility Monitor is going to be that it gives you like low, high, or peak readings. And so with that, there will be some women who see high readings for weeks on end, and that can be a real struggle if you're trying to figure out when the time of fertility is. That's one hurdle we've seen with that particular device, often managed within the Marquette system. And then in general with the urinary hormones, we see more variability in the hormones across the cycle than you might expect. So in the marketing for these devices, you'll see a nice clean estrogen rise with an LH peak and then a progesterone rise and it looks really nice and beautiful.

 But within the context, know, clinically, often cycles don't look that clean. And often the hormone shifts won't line up with the mucus patterns a woman's seeing. Not often, not all the time, but sometimes we see that it won't line up. And in my own experience, I actually noticed that I didn't see a convincing rise in estrogen telling me that I was approaching ovulation until I was actually one day before my peak day in my Creighton model charting. So if I were only using urinary hormones to track my cycle and determine when I was fertile, I would have missed almost all of those good fertile days leading up to the peak day where we know that sperm can live in that good mucus for three to five days. So that was one of the major drawbacks that I noticed with urinary hormones just because the hormones go into the blood and then they're excreted in the urine. So there's a bit of a delay there that we expect with urinary hormones.

 Caitlin Estes (05:16)

I would imagine that it's still helpful to have that information, but that's where it's really good to partner between the two because Creighton is giving you a lot more accurate information as far as when to try to conceive, but potentially knowing that maybe your estrogen is lower than you would expect it to be, maybe lower than the average. Could you maybe use that on the medical side, that information to further look into what could be causing that?

 Naomi Davis (05:42)

Yeah, so that's where I think it'd be helpful to almost essential to partner with someone who is an expert in that particular device. So probably ideally, you know, a patient finds a practitioner first that they trust and then uses the technology that they're familiar with interpreting because, you know, more data isn't always better within the medical space. We never order tests that we don't know how to interpret. So I usually recommend that women don't complete a whole bunch of tests if they don't have someone who knows how to interpret them because that data might just be more confusing and expensive than anything else.

 Caitlin Estes (06:18)

That is very well said because I can think of several different scenarios where we're eager to get more information because we feel like, you know, knowledge is power, but sometimes knowledge is overwhelming if you don't have the proper tools or the person to actually interpret it to do something with it. So that's really wise.

 Naomi Davis (06:39)

So then we get into like basal body temperature. And one of the major drawbacks for women who are trying to conceive with basal body temperature is that it tells us when ovulation has passed. So not super helpful for timing intercourse because by the time that that temp shifts, we know that probably ovulation has passed. And then the other drawbacks with it, of course, especially for those that are using a temperature every morning or a thermometer every morning, is if they drink something before they measure the temperature, if they wake up at a different time, if they drink alcohol, if they're sick, all these things can impact the temperature. And then in about 20 % of ovulatory cycles where the hormones look normal, we actually won't see a temperature shift that cycle. And so it's just not foolproof as far as identifying ovulation. And then as far as the kegg device or measuring cervical mucus, again, in the cervical mucus impedance, it actually, I've seen that it does correlate well with a woman's cervical mucus observations, but there's quite a bit in that impedance trend throughout the cycle. So for me personally, if I didn't have the Creighton model chart along with that data, I would not have been confident like, ovulation has passed. So in my experience, the cervical mucus, like objective observations with the Creighton model, were the most convincing and obvious sign of ovulation.

 Caitlin Estes (08:02)

Those are a great list of some of the concerns or cons or even just things to keep in mind as you use these FemTech devices because we are not anti-Fintech. I recommend them. I talk openly about them with clients, but not everyone is going to benefit from it. It's just really not meant for every single person. I mean, every single person could use it, but not everybody's going to get the same amount out of it as certain scenarios.

 Naomi Davis (08:10)

Absolutely.

 Caitlin Estes (08:31)

So what have you seen as some of the pros or real benefits to using these FemTech devices too?

 Naomi Davis (08:37)

Yeah, so when I think about, particularly for those women who struggle to identify their peak day and aren't confident when they're post-peak, often for these women we would do a peak plus three progesterone level to see if they're post-ovulatory. But if a patient is in a rural area where they can't get to a lab or they'd have to drive two hours to get to a lab, then sometimes I think adding something like basal body temperature to help see another marker or data point for whether your post-ovulatory can be helpful. I think that using something like confirmation with the progesterone level in the urine has potential to be helpful in this space and I've seen mixed reviews in patients who have used this where the progesterone won't be positive in the urine but then when they do drive two hours to get it drawn in the serum it's positive. So I think that we have a ways to go perhaps in our correlation with, you know, how those two relate and maybe the timing of that, we might not be able to get it at peak plus three, you might have to wait longer, which then can impact treatment. But I think that there is a lot of potential for urinary hormones to play a valuable role, even in knowing what hormones are doing across the entire cycle. Once we have correlative studies with, you know, how does the urine relate to the blood hormones over time. Like, we have these studies now in NaPro technology, but can we get those with the urine and then find out is there a delay? Is it 24 hours? And how do we then use that data, you know, moving forward?

 Caitlin Estes (10:05)

Yeah, it's exciting to be on the frontier side, you know, the early side of all this FemTech, but also we have to keep that in mind that we're still in the beginning years. It's come a long way, even over the last five years. my goodness. So much development, but there is going to be so much more development hopefully in the years to come.

 Naomi Davis (10:26)

So I always say that for some women, more data is helpful, and for others, it creates more stress. So particularly in the space of infertility, we never want women to add something on that's going to increase their stress. We know that can negatively impact ovulation. It can negatively impact cervical mucus, all these things that are really important for trying to achieve pregnancy. I think, and I'm hopeful, that in the future, for women that have limited mucus cycles or even continuous mucus, that may be a device like kegg, that's measuring the sort maybe that could play some role in helping us to better understand what's going on with the cervical mucus and when the true time of fertility is. So I those are other frontiers where it may be helpful as well in the future.

 Caitlin Estes (11:06)

Yeah, continuous mucus or dry cycles, those are great examples, that can feel initially very overwhelming to a woman learning those. I mean, I've walked with many, many, through that experience. And I wouldn't want a woman like that to say, oh, I'm just going to use this device instead because it will tell me. Because the cervical mucus or lack of cervical mucus still gives so much information.

 Naomi Davis (11:16)

Mm-hmm.

 Caitlin Estes (11:32)

If we're seeing mucus every day, for instance, there's a reason why. And so you, know on the medical side, want to get to that underlying reason that you're seeing the continuous mucus in the first place. But having a device like some sort of FEMTECH device or monitor or something like that could give a little bit more confidence as to identifying the days of fertility while you're working on getting the health side figured out with a NaPro trained medical professional. So that's a really good perspective. liked to, you know, I will say when I spoke with Rose McKenzie from Mira, she talked about how Mira is a tool, whereas Creighton is a method. And so she's like, you're really wise to learn a method, and then you may or may not need a tool that can supplement that, that can be helpful for that.

 Naomi Davis (12:14)

Mmm. Absolutely.

 Caitlin Estes (12:23)

I thought that was a very good distinction. I think especially for those who are trying and struggling to conceive, having a solid method and a medical professional who is trained in that method to walk you through it is essential. And then beyond that, if you want to have a tool that your medical professional is also aware of and familiar with and can interpret that data for you, that's kind of like bonus. That's extra.

 Naomi Davis (12:50)

Right. Absolutely.

 Caitlin Estes (12:52)

Are there any situations where you feel like it's a waste of money like just don't do FemTech if this is your situation. I'm just curious.

 Naomi Davis (13:01)

would say, and this has really been on my heart lately because often times patients will present to us and they spend hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars on FemTech to gain almost nothing as far as information about their cycle goes. And then when we start talking about maybe we should start with the Creighton model, it's frustrating to have to spend more money to learn something else. So I always encourage women to again learn a method first. So learn the Creighton model.

 If the mucus sign isn't obvious, that in and of itself tells us there's something that needs to be looked into and it's worthwhile to know that information. We get so much information from a Creighton model chart, so much more information than I can get from, you know, daily hormone studies month after month after month. So, that's always the thing that I go back to start with is just to, again, learn a method. And then the other that I find that can sometimes be harmful with it is that for as many blog posts as all these apps offer, there's very little comprehensive education about the woman's body on the front end. So for a woman that goes through learning the Creighton model, she learns a lot about what her body's doing and she learns to interpret those signs herself. Whereas with these devices, oftentimes women are, you know, they're just relying on the device or the app to tell them what's happening with their body.

 And what we really want to know, we want women to be attuned to their body and their body signs is not something that you might get automatically by using FemTech. And so something I found frustrating with this technology that is expensive is that it may not actually be using the real time data you're putting into the app to say when the woman's time of fertility is. So oftentimes they're using previous cycle data, so the cycle length of 28 days or the cycle length of 45 days, whatever that woman's cycle length was, to calculate when they say that woman's in her time of fertility despite the fact that the woman's putting in all this data and it's not being tailored to the data that's being put in. So that to me is really frustrating because as a user I would expect that if I'm putting all this data in the app is going to account for that and tell me when that true time of fertility is. With the kegg device, for example, I've seen it say low fertility, you know, it only says high fertility during, you know, cycle day 13 to 15 and then low from here on out, even though the impedance trend drops off on cycle day 30 for a woman that has more irregular cycles. really frustrating, I think, that the algorithms aren't taking that additional information into it. So that makes it really important that the woman actually knows how to interpret that data in real time and knows the app might not be doing that for her.

 Caitlin Estes (15:42)

Yes, absolutely. And that's why we always come back to that woven natural fertility care, is education and empowerment. Because if we're just relying on these tools that are out there, then we actually don't have a lot to advocate with. We have something, but we don't have nearly as much as we would have if we actually understood how our bodies work and the amount of information that we can gain even just looking at something like cervical mucus. Also, the battery doesn't run out. You don't have to charge it. You don't have to buy new test strips. Once you know Creighton, you have it the rest of your reproductive life. Thank you so much, Naomi, for coming on, for sharing your take and really a medical perspective on how FemTech may be helpful or not for those who are trying to conceive.

 Naomi Davis (16:37)

Absolutely, happy to be here. It's a wonderful technology and I'm hopeful that over the years it'll provide even more benefit for women.

 Caitlin Estes (16:44)

Listeners, we realize that you're out there trying to gather the information that you need in order to advocate for your care, the care that you deserve. And we want you to know that you're not alone in that process.

 Yes, you have great technology that can help you, that can tell you levels of estrogen and progesterone and LH and all sorts of things in your body right now and rings that can track your sleep and your stress levels. But there are other resources out there too. Resources that we've been talking about today. Resources that God gave you that don't cost a thing. Your own reproductive biomarkers that give you an incredible amount of information about your hormonal and reproductive health and God built them right into your DNA from the start.

 So we want to empower you to understand these biomarkers and more. And we have lots of resources for ways to do that. You've got this podcast free and new episodes releasing each week. You have fertility education classes, which we offer each month. And you can find the link in the show notes to that. You have support groups like the Fertile Hive Community offered by Vivify Fertility and Health, where you can get questions answered while finding a community to walk alongside you as you do. And you have a brand new book that lays out not only the details of how your female body was designed to function, but the gifts and tools that God's empowered you with to interpret that information, use it to empower yourself, aggregate for excellent care, and encourage other women along the way.

 This is a book that any woman can pick up and gain something from. It's not technical and academic. It's not vague and general. It gives you exactly what you or someone you love needs to know as you explore your beautiful, dignified female design. And it's available for pre-order now. When you do, you're automatically eligible for all of our pre-order goodies, including the raffle to receive a Mira Hormone monitor and Ultra 4 Wand Kit and the webinar with the Vivify that's only available to those who pre-order. So check out our show notes with how to order and register for your bonuses. As always, thanks for listening as we continue to explore together what it means to be Woven Well.