The Mobility Experience

Cartus colleagues, Andy Conduit-Turner, Director, Sustainable Growth Enablement, Eddie Silva, Technical Pre-Sales Engineer, and Sebastien Kreutz, Manager, Global Talent Mobility, discuss the evolution of global mobility, the role AI and mobility technology has to play, and how to strike an equilibrium between cost management and providing a positive relocation experience.

Our guests:

Sebastien Kreutz
Seb is a global mobility professional with over six years’ experience in the industry. Joining Cartus as a relocation consultant, articulating complex service delivery to customers, Seb quickly progressed to global talent mobility manager, coaching a 12-people team and leading a group of 40+ employees, ensuring client and customer satisfaction.
 
Eddie Silva
Eddie Silva, Technical Pre-Sales Engineer, began his Cartus journey in 2013. Beginning as an International Assignment Consultant, Eddie was able to leverage his Portuguese language and culture to help build relationships with relocating employees and their families. His career continued to Senior International/Domestic Assignment Consultant and he was able to build a team to help support and meet the needs of employees. In his current role, Technical Pre-Sales Engineer, Eddie uses his passion, collaboration and genuine enthusiasm in presenting innovative Cartus tools, applications, and technology to new and current clients.

Our host:

Andy Conduit-Turner

Andy has performed a number of roles throughout his global mobility career with Cartus, which followed his own time living and working internationally. After building his skills in both account management and transformation projects, when asked to describe his role today as Director, Sustainable Growth Enablement, Andy’s one word response is, “Questions.” Specifically answering the questions that our partners and the broader mobility community have for us, and asking our own in order to move our innovations in the direction that best serves our clients, as well helping to support the long-term, sustainable growth of our solutions. 

Executive production: Louise Koncowski 

Transcript

Andy: Hello and welcome to today's episode of Mobility Matters. I'm your host, Andy Conduit-Turner, Director of Sustainable Growth Enablement here at Carters, and today, we're going to be exploring perhaps the most important topic we can cover across all of the mobility space, which is, of course, the experience that individuals moving domestically around the world actually have as they're undertaking a corporate move. Not going to do this alone however, I am delighted to be joined today by two very special guests, Cartus’ very own, Eddie Silva, a Technical Sales Engineer based in the US. Welcome Eddie!

Eddie: Hello. Thank you for having me. Wonderful to be here today. Appreciate it.

Andy: Oh, always good to see you, Eddie. And then I'm also very excited to be joined by Sebastian Kreutz, Global Talent Mobility, Manager at Cartus, based in Stockholm. Welcome, Seb. How you doing?

Seb: Hey Andy! Thank you very much for the invitation. Really excited to be here and to discuss mobility with you.
 
 Andy: Thank you very much both. So, I mean, let's set the scene here to begin with. All three of us on the call here today, we all started off our careers as Consultants, actually helping folks move from A to B, and sometimes to C as well. And our careers have taken each of us in different directions. So, I would like to take a moment to understand how your own unique role has impacted the mobility experience. Seb, I'll come to you first. 

Seb: Yeah, absolutely. As a matter of fact, I've been rotating myself a few times before I actually worked in a location. So, I do have personal experience as well as professional experience. I've been working in [the] industry for almost 10 years. I've seen all sorts of programs, all sorts of policies. I tend to work with very large clients who have multiple locations across the globe, so not only in Europe, but in Asia, South America, North America. I think I've worked with almost all the main locations [when] I started as a consultant. 

I used to organize the location of individuals and families. And then I moved up to a senior position where I would look after what we call, in the industry, VIPs or executive leaders, so people that have more complex moves, more challenging requirements. I did this for a few years, and then about four to five years ago, I became an operation and an account manager, so now I work with clients to tailor their policies. I coach my team to provide the best service and the best experience. So, over the year, I got a more global view on the matter, and hopefully I can provide you with some insights.

Andy: Thank you very much. Always great to hear from people who are the people that are interacting most directly with those families that are moving around the world. And Eddie, I'll turn to you here, tell us about your unique role, perhaps the opposite side of the coin, and as supporting individuals moving around the world. 

Eddie: Yeah, a little bit different from my journey here at Cartus. So started myself as well as a consultant on a mega account. I actually was an international consultant with compensation benefits also as part of my role. So really rounded me out as far as knowledge and knowing the whole journey of the expat. As we know those balance sheets can certainly be a critical driver in relocation when selecting assignments and then move my way up to senior consultant, both in the Americas region, also US domestic focusing on that there.

I have not relocated myself, but do have strong international ties as my family still resides to this day, many of them in Portugal, and I do believe that having that Portuguese language support in my back pocket, it really helped me to be employed by Cartus, working with employees coming out of Brazil and Portugal, and their native language certainly helps the process and helps ease some of that tension when it comes to relocating employees. 

And today, I'm now in a role called technical pre-sales engineer, which really is a unique role that bridges, I would say, our IT departments and our techno technology. Our new developments, newest iterations of our technology, any new tools, applications, and really bringing those to the sales side, where I present in many a “best and final” and lots of requests from prospects, as well as showing current [Cartus] clients our new and developing technology. Showing them things like flexible mobility options, like Benefits Builder that we have, Cartus Connect, of course. All the new technologies, as we continue to unravel them and roll them out, if you will. So pretty unique role within the organization, I would say. 

Andy: So really, when we're talking about from the view of the individual, the customer, the family that's moving, what we're really hoping to capture in our discussion here is the two fronts: the interactions that the individuals are going to have with the consultants, with that directed customer service that they receive, and the discussions that happen day-by-day, solving individual and very unique circumstances that come up. And then that technology front end as well, to really smooth that process. 

So, let's turn back to you then Seb to begin with. So, you've been with us in the industry a long time, as you mentioned, tell me what that has looked like in terms of change. So, for example, relocating five to 10 years ago and then moving with your company again today. What differences would you expect those people to encounter?

Seb: So, I think it's very interesting. So, I started working in [the] industry in 2010 and the way I experienced it is that there were two phases. When I started my career, companies were, in general, very willing to give a lot of support. There were very little cards off the table. The packages used to be very generous, and until I would say 2020, companies always had this mindset of trying to develop offering how to make it more attractive, how to be more competitive in comparison to the competition. Because often what I found, at least with the clients I worked for, is that relocation package was often a differentiator for new recruits, for people needing to pick an employer. 

And then there was a big shift, which I think we all experienced, called COVID, which really made companies rethink their global strategy and their relocation programs. So, companies are willing to offer a bit less if it is to save cost. However, one interesting change to note is that flexibility has increased. So, there was this strange paradox where I think pre-COVID, you could get a lot of support given to you, but not necessarily the support that you need, and it would have cost a lot of money to the company for some things the employee would not necessarily need. 

And now I find that the trend is to reduce cost, but there seems to be a certain flexibility to be given in exchange for it so, I think that's great. I think we’re seeing a lot more tailored packages, a lot more customization with our [relocating] employees. So, I would say that this has definitely been the trend for the last 10 years. So, 10 years ago, you probably would have had a more generous package, but maybe not all of it useful, whereas now the packages are probably more limited than they used to be, but they are usually more focused than they used to be.

Andy: Yeah, that's a very interesting point there Seb, and I think this also came up in our Mobility Matters episode, where we discussed cost containment [Designing cost-effective and employee friendly mobility solutions] as well. And the experience we're seeing there is really looking for companies hoping to achieve both goals, by really delineating what is cost and what is value, to make sure you're still offering the services, the support that individuals are going to value most, while still keeping an eye on your overall cost, the overall bottom line of what you’re spend is on a relocation package. 

Eddie, you were on the frontline as well, but then you're also off talking to companies about what we offer from a technology standpoint and what we can enable via technology in a modern world. What would you say the priorities are for companies right now in that space and any service areas that they're particularly focused on?

Eddie: Yeah, I would have to echo Seb in the cost containment/cost management piece. Certainly, companies are becoming very cost conscious and introducing more moves like lump sum moves or capped moves, and in turn, we are developing some technology to really cater to some of those that may be more of a self-serve option, or self-service where the employee is actually driving the relocation with minimal support from a Cartas Consultant, but being able to progress and be reminded of certain tasks that they may need to complete. 

So, I do agree that cost management is still top of mind. But to add another element, I would say flexibility. And flexibility is kind of a hot word, I would say now a days in the mobility space, but it can come from many different parts. So, business flexibility, so seeing lots of programs that maybe are interested in this flexible solution, but not necessarily ready to move the entirety of their program, so keeping things like C-level suite or executive programs still in the traditional while being able to explore these new options of flexibility where the employee has more choice, maybe on the lower-level positions within the organization/the employee driven side. 

Of course, it's funny that you asked, “Five to 10 years,” I've been in the industry about that long, 10 years with Cartus, and I can tell you that the family dynamic that we are dealing with has changed tremendously. What we thought of as “traditional” and using terms like “trailing spouse” and “accompanying dependent” and all of these terms have kind of gone by the wayside as families have truly become unique and dynamic, and this flexible and flexibility approach of having choices of which benefits to select from, certainly makes the employee feel more supported. [It] really customizes and caters these specific to their family and their needs, prioritizing what's important to them, and also allowing companies to really provide flexibility and even steering employees towards certain benefits that may reflect their company culture as well. So, for example, if they are very heavy in sustainability options, maybe providing them incentives for choosing things like “discard and donate” programs or whatever it may be, is a way to be able to be flexible as well. 

Also, I'd say it’s important to mention more and more employees deciding to move on their own, maybe not business driven relocations. COVID really started that wheel turning, I think, for a lot of people, and in expanding, not only remote technology and allowing them to do their job anywhere, but also, of course, them just wanting to move to another part of the country, maybe for more familial support, or whatever the reason may be, as options as well. 

And then, of course, attached to those, the technology piece as it is, part of my role. I must mention the data that comes from this. So where are employees choosing benefits? What types? Is it specific by location? Is it specific by family size? Is it whatever it may be, being able to really analyze this data and develop these programs even further to customize for the specific needs of that employee, because that is really what it's all about. They are at the center, and we want to make that experience as good as we can.

Andy: So you're talking there about using those pieces of technology to enhance that experience, whether it's to offer data driven guidance or even just to provide the platform for how people can make those choices effectively, right? Because if you imagine how, and we've all been there in the policy counseling space 10 years ago, those documents that you as a Relocation Consultant would have to be super familiar with. As we expand and offer more flexible programs, they would become like phone books I imagined, in a world where we still printed these things out or looked at them in in a hard copy. So how is technology really enabling us to manage more complex policies in the background without making it more complex for the end user, the person that's moving. 

Eddie: Yeah, I would say that technology really… you want to make it as seamless and intuitive as possible. Technology is constantly growing in all of our phases, in every phase of our lives, whether it's from your banking application to applying for documents online. Whatever it may be, all of it's becoming much easier, and I think we are developing technology to make sure that we are with the times when it comes to that, adding lots of different benefits to be able to choose from, but still having that consultative approach right. We still need to make sure that we are guiding and providing guidance for these employees when it comes to the relocation, to make sure that they're selecting the correct options and what we think is going to be important for them. Now, ultimately, they have the choice, but it is important for us to be able to offer these solutions. 

And the nice part is, as we've had and continue to have, more employees go through this flexible mobility program, we can really leverage their voice and hearing what's important to them, where they feel supported, where they feel a lack of support, to really make sure that we're meeting all of these needs. The technology is there to help support that. So just enhance that approach, make it a gamified, fun approach, where you can continue to create different iterations and versions of your relocation until you have the final selections in place. So a nice way to kind of meet in the middle, if you will, providing still the traditional benefits, but allowing the employee to have that choice with the flexibility, really giving them the ownership and their family, getting them involved in some of the selections as well.

Andy: Brilliant. Thank you, Eddie. Seb, you mentioned earlier, when you were talking about your evolving experience over the last few years that with such a strong focus on cost control right now, there could be risks to the quality of support provided for relocating families, or the competitiveness of programs even. But is there a balance that can be achieved between the two? You know, are there compromises between cost management and a really positive and successful relocation experience for a family? 

Seb: I would say actually, that the human element actually becomes more important than ever, if our policies are becoming more respect restrictive than they used to be, we need to do our best to provide support where it matters, and often when we ask the employee to compromise on what they need to pick for their urgent support, this is where our role as Consultant is becoming crucial, because we need to tell them, we need to advise them. They need to know what they actually need, what is going to make a difference. And we also need to provide the reassurance on, for example, on some items they may not be supported [on]. And this is where we can help, right? Our teams or [the] Consultant, they've been through a lot of relocation experience. Whether themselves or with a customer and we know we have insight. We have the experience. And so the human touch is really where we want to put the emphasis on. We need to find the key success factors for each individual or families, and then we tailor this, this better relocation experience. And the nice thing is that it can be cheaper. 

Actually, I used to work well, I still work, with a client where flexibility has been their main way of operating, and we often found that not only the relocation program per person was a lot cheaper than other clients, the satisfaction was also higher because we were able to identify the key success factor for each of those individual relocation and families. And I think letting your employee with pick the support among (at least) a pre-authorized [list of] benefits, is a great way to achieve this.

Andy: Excellent thank you so much. So let's take a look. I mean, we talked about the Consultant experience, and if you want to hear more from some Consultants directly, I will direct you straight to episode three of this season of the podcast[Meeting the frontline – Cartus Consultant spotlight], where my colleague Kristi Lund, speaks to two of our frontline Relocation Consultants and the very important role that they play.

And again, to pick up on what you were saying as well there Seb like, if you take a look at our own survey that we launched in 2024, the feedback we got from all of those participants was that improving the employee experience was the number two item that were on everyone's list of priorities, beaten only by the need to manage costs. So understanding that there is a balance to be achieved, there is a really powerful method of approaching these things and to actually make sure that they're not mutually exclusive, is how we continue to be successful in the industry. Anyone running a mobility program will tell you that the only thing that will cost you even more money is if an assignment fails and you have to send someone home because they're unable to perform in the role that you've sent them over to a new location to perform in. 

But let's move on and talk a little bit more about the experience and Eddie, I'll turn back to you. So we have mentioned flexible mobility and that increased amount of flexibility across our answers here. A decade ago, we all remember that goal was to provide that uniform experience, to avoid that water cooler talk that people didn't have something that was the same as their colleague that moved in around the same time, to the same place. Today, we really are seeing the market shift towards an equity of choice to make sure everyone has the options to use the services that they get the most value from and to meet their unique needs. I'm turning to you specifically because you have my favorite story about meeting unique and you know, perhaps very rare needs, right? And I'm going to invite you to share it with us right now.

Eddie: Absolutely. So, employees are being very creative in what's important to them, what is selected to them, of course. And I think that our tool and technology Benefits Builder certainly helps them with having the full option and full autonomy to choose the benefits that they would like, which reminds me of a story I once experienced live, right in front of me, at a famous sandwich shop. We'll call them “Metro Sandwiches.” But at Metro Sandwiches, there was a gentleman standing in front of me making his selection, and I was prepared to order a regular full-sized sub with regular toppings. This gentleman specifically asked for a six-inch sub, and when the sandwich maker was asking about protein options and what they would like, they simply said no to all of the options, except for black olives, to which the sandwich maker looked quite puzzled, and they responded, “You would only like black olives on your sandwich?” 
And that gentleman said, “Yes, please.” So, a handful of black olives went on a six-inch loaf of bread. The gentleman then asked for more olives. So, two handfuls of olives went on. The employee asked again, “Are you sure this is it?”

And they said, “Absolutely.” And then [the sandwich maker] went through the confusion of trying to ring it up, as he was not accustomed to a black olive-only sandwich being ordered at this restaurant or sandwich shop. So, the point here is that that employee, whatever the reason may be, did only want, or that gentleman did only want black olives. That was what's most important to them, and this sandwich shop was able to provide them with that specific example. And I know that's a little extreme, we can liken it to something like pet shipment, right? Where an employee knows all, they really care about is pet shipment. They love their pet, and they want them to go with them. So, they should have that option to be able to select that first and foremost and really prioritize that benefit when it comes to choosing that flexible mobility.

So really, it's just about being able to deliver all of the benefits. And while human thought is, “Once we move to a flexible mobility program, I'm going to be losing benefits. The company is trying to save money.” In reality, that menu, if you will, of benefits that you get to choose from, actually expands. It's even doubled in some cases, when it comes to what is exactly available, which really allows the employee to maybe even think of benefits that might not have been applicable or offered in the past, things like elderly care or single-parent babysitting, support. Whatever it may be, these out of the box, if you will, benefits that aren't part of these traditional uniform packages. And really the importance is that we're offering everyone the same menu, if you will, of benefits to choose from and allowing them to really specify and pick their specific needs. 

Andy: Thank you, Eddie. This is a story that when you first told it to me, I think we were together at a conference or something at the time, and you shared that story with me, it really did stick with me, and has really been a guiding principle when we look at adding more flexibility to mobility. Just really to understand that that person who wants something that maybe that man who ordered a black olive sandwich with nothing else on it, perhaps that was the only sandwich of that type ordered in certainly that city, if not the entire country or the world that day. But being able to meet his choice, and having the capacity to be able to do that was as important to those people serving him his lunch as it was [to] you, that was behind him, that was going to want the sandwich that maybe they made 100 times today. I'm not implying that you have basic taste, Eddie. I never would. But you know, making sure that you can deal with the outliers and still satisfy their needs as well as the people that are within the lines that you would normally expect, creates [a] really, really powerful message. 

And I think also it gives me thoughts about how much choice that people can actually manage in our day-to-day lives. We are making decisions every day. And the very fact you can walk into a sandwich shop and effectively have, I do not have the math degree to be able to calculate the number of permutations of sandwich and drink combos, let alone cookies, that you could have in one store that you could walk into. But people are used to looking at these models now and being able to, with the right tools, be able to navigate many, many decisions and make the option which is perfectly right to them. A policy of one, if you like. 

I'm going to talk a little bit more broadly about technology after that philosophical moment, though, and move into some more broad technology across the relocation industry. So, I'm going to stay with you to begin with, Eddie… how are people interacting differently with mobility technology today, and how are they aspiring to use tech solutions in the future? Specifically, because I feel like it's law to talk about this topic at the moment when we're mentioning technology, how can people engage with AI to deliver better customer experiences? 

Eddie: Yeah, well, first of all, I think it's important to know that generations have many differences. I know that the employee population that I was moving 10 years ago is very different from the employee population that is moving now, with lots of different styles as far as how to deliver a relocation and really preferences. Some are going to be heavy tech users, and for those, we need to continue to increase our technology options, especially with things like mobile application, continuing to improve our mobile app that we have today on the go, standardizing some of this technology and including and incorporating some of it that we see in our day-to-day life. Things Like OCR [optical character recognition] or receipt recognition when it comes to scanning, so that it auto-populates some of that expense information as well. So, it is important for us to continue with on-the-go and improving the experiences for everyone across the board when it comes to it. 

Our famous and most popular two little letters in the world right now most likely, AI, are certainly being introduced. And I believe there are elements, and we certainly have deployed elements of AI within our technology already, but not so much on the customer-facing or employee-facing side. Consultants are still the drivers. Humans can really make that decision. Humans have empathy, understanding, really being able to guide the employee towards what they need. Certain watch outs, AI is not there yet when it comes to it, it's certainly very good at telling us, for example, how many days we have in a traditional policy for temporary living, right? AI can tell us 30 days, 45 days, whatever it may be. It's not so good at telling us if we should stay in temp living an extra month or get rental furniture in our new home if that is available for us to move into. So, it's not at all those levels, and it really doesn't understand empathy and really personal events/emotions that are going through this, this relocation. 

We all know it's very emotional when you are moving through something like that. And AI, certainly, in my experience, can be a little frustrating. I have sat there and yelled at the phone requesting a representative, not something I'm proud of, but certainly something I've done in the past with other institutions, and it just makes you more frustrated and really elevates that emotion when you are in that situation. So, we want to make sure that it is there, that it understands our industry, that it knows things like, for example, house hunting, and doesn't necessarily take you to a hunting website for the latest game hunting. So, lots of different things and nuances within our industry. I do think AI will help in expanding things like language capabilities and really just general explanation of some of the benefits, but as far as guiding the employee through that journey, the Consultant is still critical, and that's why we're building and we continue to build co-browsing capabilities, and always have the ability to share a screen. That human touch is essential when it comes to a relocation.

Andy: That's great. Thank you, Eddie, for your perspective on that. I will add slightly to myself though before I turn this over to Seb as well… You're right. I think that integrating technology and the human biological support that we can give is an essential factor. Technology, and AI in particular, has a great capacity to manage out of hours communications, to give people reminders as many times as they would need them on the current status of their benefits, the current status of an expense report, what is left in their allowances to be able to select and to transfer things quicker, to get information to you faster at any time of night, to add, as you mentioned Eddie, accessibility, to be able to translate documents more and more seamlessly into your first language, or to even speak to you and translate things, to summarize calls, all of these wonderful things that these technologies can bring to us today are excellent, but per the example you gave, it can give you these examples from policy and to help you with what the laws are and the fast rules are, but it is currently unable to replicate the support a Consultant and the human element can give when supporting a relocation. When a parent is talking about their daughter being anxious about the move because she's worried about making friends at a new school because she's moving across the world, or when they have some very, very complex questions about how they're going to manage a particular element of their life. Or just for that reassurance, when people are worried about things, I think we actually have a big role. So, I will turn to you on that note, Seb, as we get close to this, what are your thoughts on AI, in the mobility process today? Can it support your Consultants without taking away the valuable role they play in the relocation process?

Seb: That's a very interesting question. And I think I will join you both on this. I think AI can be used, but we need to use it smartly. I think it depends how we use it. There is a lot of things that AI can do, from researching information a lot quicker, or, as you already said, submitting expenses, translation, etc. I think AI will be great to help with what we would call maybe the admin work, the repetitive mundane tasks/data thing. It would be a great support. But I think when it comes to the human touch, and I can talk from experience here, I've relocated myself four times and I would have hated to talk to a machine throughout my whole experience. I think it's very important that someone can understand you, and as you say, sometimes you have queries that I struggle myself to imagine how an AI could solve those you know, like, let's say you want to organize a shipment, but then you have a very complex family situation. How can an AI understand that? I don't think it is ready yet. Maybe one day, AI will be indistinguishable from human. But until then, I don't think we can totally remove ourselves out of the process, because we need that empathy. We need that connection. And AI is great. I think let's use it for the regular tasks, for the repetitive ones, and then we humans can focus on the actual experience, on the emotional side, on the support side, and I think this is how we can achieve, probably what is a great harmony between us and the machine.

Andy: Wonderful. I can't think of a better note to end on than a line on harmony with humans and machines, Seb, so I'm going to call us to a close at that point. So, thank you to both Seb and for Eddie for joining me here for this discussion here today. Thank you to everyone who has listened along with us for the conversation as well. You can email us on cartosolutions@cartus.comor reach out to any of your hosts that you heard over the last few weeks on LinkedIn with any follow-up questions you have or ideas for future podcasts as well. We are always delighted to hear from you. 

Until then though, goodbye everybody, and we will see you next time. 

Visit cartus.com/podcast for more episodes of Mobility Matters.