Everyday Wellbeing for Producers: What Works, and What's Next (Live Recording)

Producers face unique pressures. This session explores strategies that support producers' mental health on and off set, with insights from data, case studies, and real world experiences. 

Panel: Kelly Lucas (ScreenSafe), Miranda Rivers (Casting / Mental Health First Aid), Emmett Skilton (Director / Actor) and Kevin Denholm (Film Chaplain / Director). 

Recorded live at the 2025 Spada Conference, held 20 & 21 November 2025 in Auckland, New Zealand.

www.spada.co.nz

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Transcript

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This discussion on Everyday Wellbeing for Producers: What Works, and What's Next? features Kelly Lucas, Miranda Rivers, Emmett Skilton, and Kevin Denholm. It was recorded live at the 2025 Spada Conference. So welcome. So, for those of you that haven't met us before, I'm Miranda. I'm a casting director in screen You might know me from that, but my other lens is as a passionate advocate for mental health and wellbeing in our screen industry, and I'm trained up as a mental health first aid instructor, which is something I also teach. We're not really going to get into that today because we don't have much time for that, in this session. But it is. Feel free to come and approach me any time to have a chat about that. We're going to get quite heavy into the data today for the beginning of this session. It is quite a lot, but I want you to know we do it for a reason because it's important to share the statistics that are happening out there internationally and here in Aotearoa for us to get a sense of the solutions and also a way to share this information amongst us so we can generate solutions together, because this is all of our issue. Yeah. So welcome, Kelly. Kia ora tatou everyone, oh, they don't only have one lapel mic, sorry, so Bear with me on this one. Kelly Lucas, Screen Industry Guild And today I've got my ScreenSafe hat on. Thank you so much for taking the time to come here. I do realize we've got another big option next door, but this particular topic for most of you who have either seen me speak or come to a professional respect training is massive. It's become a bit of, crusade I want to selfishly say, to try and look for funding to bring funding into industry so we can be at the table, ScreenSafe as an independent organization with everybody at the table, so we can look across the board and see where we need to have particular programs run out for everybody. That includes producers, goes across the whole thing from pre-production right through to post. So we will get into that a bit later and we'll get into the data. Okay. So we're going to start, as I said, with some data from the UK and Australia. And then we're going to present our data findings from the New Zealand Aotearoa mental health survey that's just been completed. So yeah, fresh off the press as such, which is great. Then we're going to move into our panel discussion. We're we're going to give you some lovely examples, with Kevin and Emmet here of what sort of mental health and wellbeing they've been using in the productions they've worked on. And then we'll finish up with some solutions and what's coming in the future. And I also make that a call to action and invitation to everybody in the room. Conversations. You have ideas you have. Please feel free at any stage to to come to us and talk to us about it so we can make these solutions together. Okay. Kia ora. All right, so here we go. In New Zealand, it's estimated that 1 in 5 people suffer from medium to high levels of mental distress. And this stat is trending upwards over time. From an economic perspective, the annual cost burden is sitting for a $12 billion or 5% of the GDP. That's an important issue financially for us as well. An estimate shows every dollar spent creating a mentally healthy workplace will create a return of investment of $2.30, and the positive impact these initiatives have on individuals employment, engaging and workplace culture. Okay, so it minimizes harm. It promotes protective factors for all workers, providing them with an open and supportive environment that promotes positive cultures conducive to mental wellbeing, as well as our physical health and wellbeing. I'm just going to play you a wee bit of a video now. This is from the UK film and TV charity. 63% of film and TV workers say the industry is negatively impacted their mental health. 30% had suicidal thoughts in the last 12 months, and yet over a third avoid seeking support altogether And board! We good? Eight take 24 on the end. No no, this isn't going to work. We’re four hours into overtime people have been for 15 hours we’ve got to wrap this up. No we’ve got to get this right! Have you checked to see who wants coffee? Yeah. Sorry, I’m just really tired. We all are. Go start with the talent. OK. Um, would you guys like a tea ora coffee? Sorry, do you mind not interrupting I’m, obviously talking to the talent. Oh, actually. Sorry. Forget it. I’ll have a coffee. Yourself? Thank you. It’s all good. Coffee. Same again. Fine, fine. OK, Jesus! Sorry sorry. Sorry. Oh. This was supposed to arrive an hour ago so chase it up for me? What is it? It’s an order from this morning but there’s no drivers to pick it up so can you sort it for me please? Where should I go to get the - Hey, you OK Tia? Just need a break. I'll get you a bottle o water, OK? We need a chair, right now. Grab one of those! I was getting - Forget what you’re doing and just grab one we need it onset Come on, hurry up. Where are the drinks? Um Stop all this. Drinks for talent. OK OK OK. You OK? Yeah. I’m fine, just - A little bit much is going on. Okay, okay. Just a minute, here. Take this. It’s a callsheet from my last shoot. There's a number from the TV charity that can help if it’s feeling too much. Okay? Okay, okay. Thank you. Thanks for the help, mate. Sorry, I was getting to it! Oh. Oh!!!!(GASPS) I’m so sorry! No there was - Don’t worry about it, it’s all good. No, no! Got your extra take - What the hell are you doing? We have been at this all night And now we are screwed. Do you know how long it's going to take him to go and get fixed? Do you understand how many people want to be in the position that you're in right now? Look I’m really so- Come on, man. Bad working practices don't have to be the norm in film and TV, we are working with industry to create more mentally healthy productions, but we can't do it alone. All of us need to act. From the top. Down. By reaching out for help and by using the film and TV charities resources, you can be the change. You can break the cycle. Pretty great video, isn't it? To explain where we're at in some of the problems we're facing. All right, so, content warning we're going to get into some not very nice data. But it's good for us to see where we're at. Okay. So Australian and UK research shows what many of us in the industry have suspected or felt for a long time. It's not a huge surprise to us. So there is a much higher rate of mental ill health compared to the general population. Five times higher of depression, ten times higher for symptoms of anxiety, and double the suicide attempts. In the UK, 35% of film industry workers say their mental health is poor or very poor. 63% say the industry has a negative effect on their mental health, and 12% think the industry as a mentally healthy place to work. Okay, so can you guess what is the percentage of people working film and TV or cinema in the UK that experienced mental health problems at some point in their lives? Got a guess? 87%. That's not a statistic or a data fact that feels very comfortable. Is it? So this same survey showed that two thirds, 66% of freelancers have thought about leaving the industry due to concerns over their mental wellbeing. So it suggests that on average, people working in this screen industries are more likely to experience mental health problems than the general population. Okeydoke. So this is the Australian, survey. That first one was done by the UK film and TV charity, and they've done a few that was their most recent results. So you can see why we felt so important to get our own data in New Zealand to try and catch up. And this is the Australian report. This just come out their latest run through Griffith University. So 76% of respondents feel proud of their work, which is good. We like the work we do. 72% disagree the industry is mentally healthy. 57% feel worn out daily, 59% report no life outside work burnout levels comparable to healthcare professionals. That statistic blew me away when I first read it. I couldn't believe it. Comparing us with nurses and doctors and considering this is a post-Covid report. 36% have considered quitting often all the time, and 25% are planning to leave, to exit the industry within within the next six months. 62% feel pressured not to claim basic entitlements. 48% faced unreasonable deadlines and 48% have experienced bullying. 72% say wellbeing is not a management priority. Whose problem is it, then? 47% feel industry peers are unsupportive of mental illness. Women experienced three times more sexual harassment than men, and pay gaps and unrealistic performance expectations play as well. And underrepresented groups face, significantly worse outcomes. So what are some of the contributing risk factors? Extreme work demands, lack of autonomy, limited job stability, which I think we can all relate to in this hard year. And fear of retaliation. Those barriers are massive, fear about career damage inhibits reporting. And people are very afraid to report for fear of not being hired on the next job. So what does this mean? It's a call for systemic reform. We need an emphasis on policy level and organizational change and industry wide reform beyond individual level resilience. And that's where I want us all to join forces. Okay. So this is the UK data reports 33%. Right. Mental health is poor very poor suicidal thoughts reported by 30% in the past 12 months. A statistic that does not sit well with me. 30% experienced high loneliness versus the National 8%. That sense of community is really important to us. Only 12% believe the industry is mentally healthy, 64% considered leaving due to their mental health or due to mental health. 32% of these took firm steps, applied, interviewed and then left. So worklessness tripled to 15% since the last survey. Only 13% feel job security, 79% have financial worries and 18% work 50 hour plus hours. Last week, 20% commute and nine hours weekly. 41% experienced bullying, harassment or discrimination and 53% did not report those incidents. 21% cited. Things got worse when they did 29% perceived positive attitudes towards mental health in the industry. It's not high enough. We need to get that up there. These kind of conversations help. So 33% of managers say they receive poor support to manage wellbeing, 26% felt unequipped to help a colleague. And that's something I'm trying to address with the mental health first aid training. We teach people how to have conversations to take away that so you can feel empowered. And yeah, a lot of it's common sense, but it's giving people confidence to have those chats. And then fear of judgment, 34% of loss of work, prevent people from seeking help. Yeah. Film and TV is worse than other subsectors and low budget drama. And below the line roles show the highest stress, worklessness and bullying. And these are some of our at risk groups. Okay. In the toolkit impact, that's something that they do in the UK. It's called The Whole Picture Toolkit. It's a resource available. Feel free to go on to their website. The film and TV charity, and have a look at the sort of resources that they're providing. Because that certainly Kelly and my mission is to get that sort of stuff available for people here. And they've, they've shown some good reports between the two different surveys over the years about the use of it and the more positive income outcomes. So, yeah, you can see that those the toolkit has given, it's gone from 25% versus 12%, which is really great and better. Personal mental health results 23% versus 35%. Okay. So that's creating a positive movement reduction in, stigma and access to support tools. One of those barriers. And what that does is it embedded mental health standards across productions. It's improved provided training for managers. Tackles bullying via independent reporting systems and prioritizing inclusion and address the needs of at risk workers. Okay. Next I'm going to hand over to Kelly. Now it's going to now talk about where we've got to with our New Zealand results. You. You might wonder why we have sort of dived into the UK and Australia data. The main thing about this is seeing what they're doing over the year, where we're sitting now. And the reason we've got this particular survey, which we had took a quite a while to get underway to do here in New Zealand. It was actually gifted and based off the UK one, but we had to make sure that we were here, making sure it was good for new Zealand. So this is our data. The main thing they talked to us about was do a temperature check before you roll out the programs, before you do anything else, make sure you know your baseline really, really well. And then we can see where the pain points are, what we need to do, and take those next steps. So we're starting here. The why basically looking at our stress of burnout, our workplace culture, bullying, discrimination and substance use, especially among freelancers and the short term with workers. This is adapted. As I said, I will keep going because we want to get to our panel, but I do want to make sure that we're looking at this. There are a few notes, off the survey.“You learn to hide your stress because people don't want to hear it. They just want the job done.” The Why. I will move through these, we want to reveal the truth behind the scenes, make the invisible visible, support real change and give weight to lived experience. This includes everybody in this room. It's just not about people who are on set all the time. It's about everybody we realize how much it takes to get something up and running. You can have something going for years before you can get it across the line and the stress that that takes. So we want to recognize everybody right through to our people So important. And the taking those little steps to make sure that everyone's protected all the way through. I get a lot of people coming to me independently because they don't want to go to an international person who's overseas who might be the HR connection, because that's not Kiwi, that's not for them. So we're trying to find a way that we can make sure that everybody is looked after and that they have the type of support that they need. There’s a particular group that I'm looking, and they have 160 different people on their team, but they deal with all different cultures and have all different sorts of support available for what people need individually. And it might not just be normal as we think counseling. We have so many other options that could be available, which I want to make sure is available for everybody. And we need to track it. 78% want more education and guidance on managing stress, supporting peers and creating safe sets. That was a really good number. We had a 3% uptake of the of the survey, which is exactly the same as the UK and Australia. So really, really happy about this. So as we go through these steps, you'll be able to see how it was tracking on that. 42% of respondents report moderate to high stress impacting their work. 87.5% show signs of suffering from mental health issues. Way too high mental distress in the screen sector is nearly double that of our general work, so workforce. A significant experience of loneliness and isolation among New Zealand screen industry workers, 77.3% of respondents reported feeling isolated or unsupported while working on productions. At least some of the time. When asked whether they felt a sense of community with their colleagues, 51.9% said yes and 48.1% either said sometimes or no. 70% of report work disrupts their personal time or their social plans. I think everyone in the room can understand that 42% says it harms relationships. And job security? Well, 52% gave the lowest score of job security. Less than 2% feel they do have job security. And this is a big one. 52.9% of respondents thought about leaving the industry in the past year due to concerns about their mental wellbeing. So we want to put a wrap around everybody because we don't want people to leave. We're a beautiful, creative bunch. We come with our own things, so we want to make sure that we can have that wrap around for everybody, that we can make sure that this isn't at least an option for them, that they don't want to. They want to be here because they feel safe. High burnout, dis-satis dis-satisfaction and stress results and indicate of high flight risk. Keeping an eye on a time because we do want to get to our panel. Substance misuse 55.9% of respondents supports more awareness programs about addiction and its impact on mental health. That was a really interesting stat Education. Substance use increases sharply among those working the longest hours or reporting bullying exposure, underscoring the need for preventative wellbeing strategies. I will skip through these because I do want to get to our panel. We need to make wellbeing part of the call sheet, not an afterthought that there is 69.7% reporting frequent stress. I'm sorry to be reading this one. 18% of respondents reported having suicidal thoughts, where 0.3% reported a suicide attempt. 8% reported self-harming without the intent to die. That one makes me real emotional. These figures point to a significant mental health crisis in our sector, especially when contrasted with the general New Zealand population, where the annual suicidal ideation rates are typically below 5%. We really do need a mental health support wraparound. We really do. So we are going to find some strategies. We promise to talk about positive solutions. Now that you've had the hard data. Thank you for sitting through that. Because no, it's not very nice to take in, but it's it's important stats. So welcome. Today we have lovely Emmett Skilton, who you may know as director actor, man of many talents today, talking to us about the production. He's worked on ‘Crackhead’, and Lovely Kevin Denholm here, film chaplain, also director, but wearing his film Chaplain hat today. And we're going to enjoy talking to you about Kevin’s Services that are available. Feel free to talk to these people about afterwards. Go up to them afterwards. I'm going to start with Emmett and then we're going to move on to, to Kevin. So Emmett, Welcome. Thanks for being here. We go. Thank you for having me. So tell us a little bit about your role and about Crackheads and what you did on that production, for sure. Kia ora tatou. So Crackhead is an eight part half hour dark comedy series that throws mental health addiction. Many of the things that we discussed here, and recovery into the limelight. in a a quite entertaining package, but also very, high risk taking package. So I was a director and that my wife was the creator, lead actress and writer as well. And so for us, the process began not only with the story being from her own life and her own experiences, but we were part of the show from the very beginnings with, story lining through that content and, exploration of, of the depth of the content that we could take it and, yeah, it's, it's it's due to come out early next year. So, a first question for producers in the room is, how do you pay for it? How is it in the budget? Yeah. So what we had with, we were very, very fortunate. The subject matter, obviously is very high risk, but we were working with Warner Brothers and Warner Brothers guided us through the process with a person whose role was the duty of care counselor on our on our call sheet. And this is a woman called Steph Dowse, who was available to all cast and crew there for a whatever level of counseling support was needed by by our team. And that was also completely separate from the sort of traditional H.R model where you have a fear that maybe it's going to get back to the boss. So it was it was framed very much in the form of this person will only communicate with someone higher than you if they're worried about you, they worried about someone else, or if it's going to jeopardize the production. And, in a way that can be avoided. And so what part of the process was she brought in? She was in from right at the beginning. This is something that Warner Brothers has a great initiative around to make sure that people are protected and looked after the moment that Holly and I joined forces with the Warner Brothers to storyline, the project wasn't even full funding any of those bits and pieces. We were introduced to Steph as a support that we could speak to. A lot of our understanding of it was that if we can't make the content we want to because we're jeopardizing our own health, then there's probably no point in making the project at all, because you're throwing yourself into, and in our situation, a really fucking dangerous position where you're going, hey, let's put all this on screen and do it extremely unsafely and so Steph gave us this really strong safeguard. Warner Brothers did, our wonderful producer Britta Hawkins did. Between them, there was a strong understanding of a lot of this data, to be honest. And just a little side note, you know, we maybe had 80 crew with pre, shoot and post-production, some of our post-production team here. If I looked at those stats and went, oh, fuck. Okay. We had that many people and two people are going to try and commit suicide. That's pretty horrific. Oh yeah. Someone wants to self-harm. Maybe, maybe, you know, there's ten people in the room. One of them are going to self-harm. That's horrific. And so for me, in my position as director, I needed to push the boat out and our boat out on our content. I needed to know that we were doing it safely and in a way that provided support for my cast and my crew. So there are a few elements that go into that. Not only did they have access to Steph, but Steph was there in person for our first read through. It was the scripts themselves were coming to life and Steph was there to go‘everything all good, everybody?’. We also had text and phone calls from Steph. Throughout the writing process. And we also had throughout the sort of finding crew, finding cast aspect of it a lot of what was going on in our show was completely framed to to who was picking up the contract or picking up the script. It was we had a few crew who were forewarned of the content. Some things, you know, let's say it's around addiction or it's around suicidal ideation, making sure that those people were protected with their awareness of what was going on with the show. And whether they were willing to step into that position because we didn't really treat the show like a job. We treted it like we're all telling a story and everyone was on board to do so. Did that care go right through to post-production for the editors? And yes, so what we actually found. So we were doing in-house editing at Warner Brothers. And what we found was that once the content was produced into almost its final form, that was also a confronting element for some people. When they read the script, they went, oh yeah, I know how to edit that. Or I know how to mix that or whatever. And then once the actual show was in a near finished form, that was confronting for some of the people that worked on it, and that support from Steph and from Warner Brothers was there. It never went away. Like I say, it started when we were doing story lining and, I mean, Steph's probably available to me now. Yeah. So what was your sort of take away as a, you know, from the producing team and you as a director having that kind of support from the beginning? How did it affect you compared to other jobs or - ? You know, I've worked in very fast paced environments where care of cast and crew isn't neglected. I'm not going to say that, but it certainly isn't, front and center when it comes to the discussions you have around the project. And so for Crackhead, we had so much freedom. I felt like I was safe on what I did. I felt like the conversations I was having with people, they were supported exterior from me, meaning that I could go to places I needed to have discussions with them, knowing that should they need to, there's someone that can support them through that process because we like we don't fucking leave our jobs at the door. I, I find it very, you know, frustrating hanging out for dinner with someone who, who hung their hat on the door at 5 p.m., and then they going to go pick it up again at 9 a.m. the next day. We don't live in a world or create in a world where we get to leave it at home. That sorry, we, yeah, we get to leave it at work. So this idea of taking it home with you and having someone like Steph that can communicate with you after hours is also really valuable. And the other part of that freedom, and that safety was knowing that it wasn't going to have repercussions for their future work. I think that's a really big thing, is going, oh, but if I tell the producer that I'm feeling this way, then that producer is not going to work with me again. Or, you know, it's the same as in the realm of casting. You know, if you tell someone, maybe you're having a bit of trouble, they'll go, oh, maybe we won't see him at this time because he was having trouble last time. And I don't think that's fair. I think I treat creation like a family. I treat the film industry like a family, and I think there's been far too many opportunities missed where it could have started with a conversation around how someone's feeling and Steph and our experience on Crackhead definitely felt like a massive positive in the right direction. Well thank you, thank you. Emmett. I feel like we could do a whole session just on this panel, but, yeah. And obviously Emmett's, the piece of drama you were working with had really serious content. So it obviously started this conversation about this culture of care early on. But I guess what we're also trying to encourage is that we have these conversations, even when you're not working with such sensitive content, there are ways to support your cast and crew with that care. Even in the smallest way. If you if you don't have the the budget of a provided counselor or whatever. Anyway, we'll thanks so much for that. Thanks. You want? You to, Thank you. I'm going to dive straight on Kevin. We're going to go there. What is a film chaplain? A great question. Ah, kia orda Everyone. So I am Kevin. And what is a film Chaplain? I get asked that just about every single day. So most of you would probably be aware of a Chaplain in the military. Someone who actually goes on to the front line, with, men and women who are sent into a war zone. And they're, they're just in, in the role of support. They're there to journey with people along to be alongside them of, all sorts of counsel, whether it be of a spiritual nature or just any, any nature whatsoever. So that is, what a Chaplain is. What a film Chaplain is, is someone who does that. But on set or not just on set, but specifically, you know, on set is where it works really, really well. And could you tell us a little bit with a bit of clarity? Because I know there can be a bit of pushback just around the name or the the thoughts around the religious side of things. If you can just clarify what that kind of means and where that, you know, coming over that sort of step for you and what you do. Great question. So, so when I answer just about every day. So, one of the problems with being or calling myself from Chaplain is this, absolute association with, religion or, or conservative Christian thinking or whatever, you know, whatever it is. But actually what chaplaincy is, is for people of all faiths and none it, it my job is is what I do come from a faith background, but that is not actually part of what I'm doing as a chaplain. It might motivate me in some some way, but, it, it, you know, my, my role is not to be there to proselytize or to, you know, talk about necessarily spiritual things. I can if someone wants to go there. But it's primarily a role, just a supporting role. The word chaplain actually comes from the Latin word cloak. And so it means to put a cloak over someone, to hold the mana, to hold the, you know, hold them in a, in a safe way. It's it's my job is actually not to necessarily fix people or to offer up great solutions that might change their lives or whatever it is. It's simply to hold them at a time when things are really, really hard and you've had an amazing, experience, if you wouldn't mind sharing that with us. On the one of the productions that you went on, if you could just touch that. So, so I must say, this is sort of really early days. I'm only really 18 months and, launching this whole thing, my background is as in film, I spent 30 plus years as a director and, made all sorts of, you know, weird and wonderful things as we did. And I ran a film company, called Exposure for, for 30 plus years. Can I just before I go to these specific productions, can I talk about the motivation as to why I did this? Yeah. So the reason, I trained as a chaplain, and I, and I did it was quite a major pivot, was really because I was as a director and as a film company owner, experiencing, a lot of the stuff. Personally, I was feeling stressed. Pressure. You know, anxious. All of these things were really, really, really getting to me. But as the company owner or as that the producer or the director, I had to put on a brave face. and and yet what, what was happening was people were coming to me on a, on a like a daily basis, knocking on my door, can we have a chat and, and, and so I was hearing just, just how this industry was having such a major, negative impact on so many of us. So anyway, Covid came along. Whammo. And, in that very first week of Covid, I was like, wow, this is all our work was largely funded offshore. All our commercial work was in New Zealand. So that stopped overnight. So everything just changed for me and a heartbeat. And and I'd been kicking around this idea of doing some sort of pastoral care in the film industry. But in that very first week, what I did was I sent an email out to about 300 crew who I'd worked with, over the last sort of previous 5 or 6 months. And I just said, hey, look, you guys know me in this role as a as a director and, and owner of Exposure. Well, but what you don't know is that I've been doing a bit of training around sort of pastoral care and with the view of one day stepping into this role of a support role within the industry. And while at that stage, while I'm not a trained counselor, I do know how to listen. If anyone needs some help right now, please reach out. Floodgate. Absolute floodgate. So I had over 100 people reach out directly, reach out and and an absolute crisis around what was going on for them. And it wasn't just Covid, it was everything. All the all that stuff that you saw out there. And I was so here I was trying to help 100 people while also trying to navigate the stress of closing down a company. And so I thought, I need to upskill. So that's when I went. And, I chose chaplaincy as a discipline. It seemed to be the best fit for me being and on location or in the field service. And so I did a master's degree out of Otago. In chaplaincy. And that's led into it now. So, yeah. What was your question? Oh, the films! Yeah. So, so, so I'll just talk about a couple of the films that have been on, in this year. So, I've just spent 16 weeks on Evil Dead, which was really fascinating. And I think what's so great about that is your question to me about the religious thing. Well, there you go. I said to them when I was lobbying them to get on this, They were like pretty unsure, to be honest. It's like, oh, gee, I don't know about that. And I said, no imagine the headline, Evil Dead so Evil, you need a chaplain on set! And I said, that headline works for both of us. So, what I did in that context was, I was largely an off set, support person. Just. And by the way, can I just say hats off to Warners for what they've done? You know, your production. So I was, but I was mainly off set. I would visit it from time to time, and whenever I did visit set, the quiet conversations would start. The people would just come up to me and say, hey, look, I'm worried about so-and-so or hey, you know, did you know about this? And and most of the time it wasn't actually work related, but work was putting so much pressure because of they weren't available to their families, they weren't able to leave set they were feeling this, this weight of what was going on. So that was that one, wonderful project. And, you know, I'm probably going to be back on the next one, in the new year, which is great. And then, but one of the best examples is actually working with David here on, D8 Talk, which was a, show. Really it was on dating and, and, diversity and sexual and gender diversity and all sorts of the most colorful group of people coming together and sharing their, their dating stories and, and, and what they did from a production point of view is they embraced the full film chaplain service. And what that is, is I have this kickass caravan, massive caravan where the La Marzocco coffee machine and, it's pretty cool, to be honest. It's it's sort of like serious bling. It would fit on any major film set. And I rocked up with this thing and very quickly, David, it became the hub, didn’t it? And so every morning I just would make people coffees and that that, by the way, is the oldest trick in the book. And we would just, you know, people would talk and then every single person, each one of the talent that, I was working with all got channeled through the through my space. And we had, a one on one conversation. I was then able to participate in the filming, just making sure that each person was held, and then by about day three, all the crew themselves, sort of, we said, hey, look, it's not just the talent. And every day there was a queue lit. I'm not not even joking. There was a queue. So I've had to get there about an hour before call and then all the way afterwards. So that's the best example. Thank you. We are nearly on our time. But no, we've got so much more we want to share with you. Because you know what produces you matter. You really matter to us very, very much so. Thank you you two. Thank you both for sharing. We would love to have more time. This is such a bigger conversation, as you all know. Thank you for coming. Last thoughts, that we didn't get time to get to today, but we have a whole lot of resources that we, are coming out, next year on the Screen Safe website. Some of them are going to be up here. We're going to do online training modules. We're going to have PDFs, that you can download on script advice, script content advice and a production guide for you also coming soon. Come and talk to us. And thanks so much for your time today. Kia ora. Kia ora. Thank you.