Da Capo Conversations 2.0 with Dawn Norfleet and Rajna Swaminathan

For Good Measure, by Ensemble for These Times (E4TT)
Episode 193: Da Capo Conversations 2.0 with Dawn Norfleet and Rajna Swaminathan

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Today we revisit Dawn Norfleet’s and Rajna Swiminathan’s perspectives on growing up in a musical family. If you enjoyed today’s conversation and want to know more about Dawn Norfleet and Rajna Swaminathan, check them out here and here. Parts of this episode originally premiered in January 2022, click here, and September 2025, click here.

This podcast is made possible by grants from the California Arts Council, SF Arts Commission, Grants for the Arts, and generous donors like you. Want to support For Good Measure and E4TT? Make a tax-deductible donation or sign up for our newsletter, and subscribe to the podcast!

Intro music: “Trifolium” by Gabriela Ortiz, performed by E4TT (Ilana Blumberg, violin; Abigail Monroe, cello; Margaret Halbig, piano), as part of “Below the Surface: Music by Women Composers,” January 29, 2022
Outro music: “Lake Turkana” by Marcus Norris, performed by E4TT (Margaret Halbig, piano), as part of “Alchemy,” October 15, 2021

Transcription courtesy of Otter.ai.
Buzzsprout: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1903729/episodes/18608343

Co-Producer, Host, and E4TT co-founder: Nanette McGuinness
Co-Producer and Audio Engineer: Stephanie M. Neumann
Podcast Cover Art: Brennan Stokes
Interns: Renata Volchinskaya, Sam Mason, Christy Xu

Transcript

Nanette McGuinness  00:00

[INTRO MUSIC] Welcome to For Good Measure, an interview series celebrating diverse composers and other creative artists. I'm Nanette McGuinness, Artistic Executive Director of Ensemble for These Times. In this week's episode, we continue our Da Capo Conversations, a mini-series where we'll be giving familiar segments a topical twist. [INTRO MUSIC ENDS] Today we revisit Dawn norfleet's and rajna swaminathan's perspectives on growing up in a musical family. Here's what Dawn Norfleet had to say.

Dawn Norfleet  00:39

Well, I come from a musical family. My brother is a keyboardist right now he's, he's playing with the temptations and playing and singing, not one of the dancers, but he's, he sings background and he plays keyboards. My mother was a professional singer, she, she was a music education major at Texas Southern University, where she met my father, who was a professional musician and entertainer. He played Organ, played piano and sang. So when they met in college, they were both music education majors, and they got married. And then they decided to go on the road as the MEL Dawn duo. So even though my mother's name is Joyce, Dawn was her stage name. And so she she named me after her stage name.

Nanette McGuinness  01:44

That's so sweet!

Dawn Norfleet  01:45

ha yeah! And so my mother very practical minded. She left the touring world behind. They had a very interesting life in the 60s touring at the time segregated clubs in the Midwest. So, you know, black duo.. they were kind of, I guess. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. They, so they toured towards segregated clubs, playing light jazz and stuff like that. And then settled in LA, and my mother, like I said, practical minded. She left the touring life behind and began teaching music in LA, at South LA. And so she actually produced an opera at a high school in Watts, California. And it was "Amahl and the night visitors" by by Gian Carlo Menotti right? And it was storing, you know, starring it featured. All faculty and students so and, and she played piano and there was one flutist, so together, they did the whole, you know, they were the accompaniment, entire opera, and my brother, who was nine at the time, played Amahl. So, so I was five. And, and I remember that, you know, it was it just had a profound impact on me. I used to walk to the library and check out the album, right. And I played it to death "Almal in the night visitors" so that that that album has, you know, just that recording that app that opera just has a very fond place in my heart. Yeah. And when I was in grad school, imagine how I felt when Gian Carlo Menotti was a guest came to speak as as a guest in my grad school. And so I was like, sitting in there fanning out and he was just so gracious. We have some photos of of from from that production where my brother is singing with one of the students who was one of the shepherds or something. And it turns out that the shepherd is now in a temptations tribute band. And my brother is now live with the temptations. It was kind of cool. But anyway, yeah, so my mother taught choir and so I heard a lot of choir music, and vocal music in general. She was a voice. She voiced voice and piano major, I think up Well, focus because her major was actually music education. So, so I heard a lot of local music. And I think that influenced me.

Nanette McGuinness  05:08

Here's what Rajna Swaminathan had to say.

Rajna Swaminathan  05:12

So we both, yeah, we both were brought up in the carnetic scene. There's, there's a Carnetic approach to the violin, and it's becoming absorbed into the...into the sort of mainstay of how carnetic music is performed. It's, you know, different technique, sort of different tuning. So you sit down and you play it. And so they were, you know, they're a little younger than me, but we were basically performing a lot together when we were younger. And obviously came from a musical family, a lot of our both our parents and also extended family being musicians. I think it was just, it was overwhelming, just like how much music was centered and, yeah, I think perhaps we were clubbed together a lot, you know, to the point where it's really over the last, I'd say 10 years, we've tried to find our individual, independent voices and paths and interests, but it's hard being clubbed together and be like, "Alright, well, you just have each other and you're going to perform together for for the rest of your lives." 

Nanette McGuinness  06:24

[laughs] 

Rajna Swaminathan  06:24

It feels a bit like, "Okay, who are we?" Outside of this, like, obviously very productive siblinghood and very like inspiring sibling hood, because I've been super deeply inspired by them and their approach to the violin as I was building rajas. Their...you know, the way that they approached the violin was so central to how I imagined that music. We have people who are trained in Indian music, but who have such an open approach to it, and also who are constantly absorbing other kinds of techniques they would bring in, like extended techniques on the violin that are never used in the Carnatic context, but that they sort of found through working with improvisers and even kind of thinking about classical techniques. And I'd say that, you know, over the last 10 years, we've both been trying to find our independent paths more than anything else. I mean, it would be nice to come back together at some point. So I hope that happens. But for now, I think it's been just really nice to see how they're headed because they're they have a different approach, even to notation and everything. They're done a lot of studying into how to notate ornaments that are very specific to Indian music, and find a way to articulate that through working with classical string players. So they've done, they've gone in that direction.

Nanette McGuinness  07:58

Interesting

Rajna Swaminathan  07:58

Really, finding new notational languages. But they've also done, you know, work involving graphic scores. And so in a lot of ways, our work is parallel.

Nanette McGuinness  08:10

Yeah.

Rajna Swaminathan  08:11

So, yeah. I mean I have a lot of respect for them, and hugely inspiring person in my life. And yeah, so it was, it's a overall, I should say it's a positive thing to have someone like that...

Nanette McGuinness  08:26

 [laughs]

Rajna Swaminathan  08:27

...to you know, despite the complications of family as they're always there. But like, you know, just having someone like that, knowing that you're not alone in the world.

Nanette McGuinness  08:35

Yeah.

Rajna Swaminathan  08:36

Someone going through this and yeah, having someone to just sort of be a mirror and reflection back as you kind of find your own path with things.

Nanette McGuinness  08:50

Yeah, did they travel with you in December to Chennai?

Rajna Swaminathan  08:55

Sometimes. Yeah, they were maybe, maybe less so involved with that, but they did, yeah, they did make quite a few visits themselves to perform. I think they knew early on that wasn't the path they wanted to go down. And they were, they're, like, a, you know, multifaceted artist, and studied theater in college, and they're really, you know, they do visual art, and so they're very sort of multifaceted in that way. So I. I think they, they knew. They were like, "Okay, that's not where I'm headed." Gonna do these other things, maybe earlier than I did [laughs] so, but yeah, they did actually go into the sort of writing for western classical musicians field before I did, and sort of helped me find my place there and introduce me to Gabriela. So that was really, that was really great.

Nanette McGuinness  09:54

You know, that does sound great. I have a... one younger sister...

Rajna Swaminathan  09:58

mmhmm

Nanette McGuinness  09:59

...who did theater. I was the music. She was the theater. And, you know, our paths diverged fairly greatly, and then I ended up doing opera, which was...interesting. And she's, she does fabulous work in law, which is where she ended up landing. But it's, it's very interesting when you have a younger sister who's determined and kind of knows what they're up to, and even if, even if they're not sure, having them right behind you is an it's an interesting experience, and it's good to come together as you're older and kind of feel less competitive, I guess, and more embracing, is what I... what I found.

Rajna Swaminathan  10:40

Absolutely, yeah, yeah. So it's, it's been really nice as we come into this phase of our lives, in our 30s.

Nanette McGuinness  10:51

Come into your own as adults. [laughs]

Rajna Swaminathan  10:53

Yeah, really. And we've, we both ended up moving out to California around the same time. They're, they live in Oakland and so yeah, it's, it's nice to have family on the West Coast. [laughs]

Nanette McGuinness  11:06

Right [laughs]

Rajna Swaminathan  11:08

We've been East Coasters our whole lives. 

Nanette McGuinness  11:11

So now you're both out here. That's cool. 

Rajna Swaminathan  11:13

...moved out here. Now my dad is out here. So it's, it's...

Nanette McGuinness  11:16

Oh wow.

Rajna Swaminathan  11:17

Whole family's out here now, so...  [laughs]

Nanette McGuinness  11:19

The Western migration, yeah, we've sort of done the same thing too. We were east and then south, and slowly...

Nanette McGuinness  11:27

...in waves came out, and much of us are out here now.

Rajna Swaminathan  11:29

[laughs]

Nanette McGuinness  11:30

[OUTRO MUSIC] Thank you for listening to For Good Measure's Da Capo Conversations, and a special thank you to our guests for joining us today. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our podcast by clicking on the subscribe button and support us by sharing it with your friends, posting about it on social media and leaving us a rating and a review. To learn more about E4TT, our concert season online and in the Bay Area, or to make a tax-deductible donation, please visit us at www.E4TT.org. This podcast is made possible by grants from the California Arts Council, the San Francisco Arts Commission, Grants for the Arts, and generous donors like you. For Good Measure is produced by Nanette McGuinness and Ensemble for These Times, and design by Brennan Stokes, with special thanks to Co-producer and Audio Engineer Stephanie M. Neumann. Remember to keep supporting equity in the arts and tune in next week "for good measure." [OUTRO MUSIC ENDS]