Decodable Text: Training Wheels for Reading

Decodable text can be a critical component of what you do as a reading teacher. In this episode of Literacy Talks, hear three experts explore the learning connection between phonics instruction and decodable text and how this can work to motivate striving readers of all ages. Our hosts discuss the topic of decodable text from three different perspectives: K–3 classroom teacher, middle/high/adult level tutor, and professor of preservice teachers. A bonus? Discover how parents and caregivers can get involved at home with decodable passages to help students practice and build reading fluency.

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Transcript

Narrator: 0:06

Hello literacy leaders and champions. Welcome to literacy talks. We are so excited to welcome you to this podcast series from Reading Horizons dedicated to exploring the ideas, trends, insights and practical issues that will help us all improve our professional practice in teaching reading, are a series host is Stacy Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Officer at Reading Horizons, we're reading momentum begins. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education. And Lindsay Kemeny, a Utah based elementary classroom teacher, today's topic decodable text, let's get started.

Donell Pons: 0:55

The topic this week is going to be one that I think has a lot of layers to it and a lot of dimensions. And because of the way reading looks in the United States today, we need this resource more and in more environments. And so it's gonna be an interesting conversation about decodable text. And typically, if we're talking about decodable texts that might seem not that exciting, but in the world of reading, it is really exciting. And it's a critical component to what you do as a reading teacher. And now that being a reading teacher is all grades, and it can be beyond high school, what's our access to decodable? Text? And what does that look like? So this should be I think, a very interesting conversation, we can get the ball rolling here. But first, Stacy, I'm going to toss it to you and just kind of ask you because you do a really good job of distilling things. Tell us a little bit about what is decodable text,

Stacy Hurst: 1:44

I would say the tenants of decodable texts is texts that use typically with beginning readers, beginning reading instruction, and it should be tied very closely to our phonics instruction or what we're teaching for decoding, I do teach my students that if they're approaching that kind of text, the way it has been written in the past and expecting to take away a philosophical message about life, that's not going to happen is decodable text is not literature. So defining what it is and what it isn't. Personally, I have seen the power of using decodable texts with beginning readers. And I do think of it in a sense like training wheels, something that helps us on our way to being able to read automatically and proficiently anything.

Donell Pons: 2:35

Yeah. I mean, it's excellent. Thanks for giving us that little sort of background on decodable text, and then Lindsay, I'm going to toss over to you because in your classroom, you're I mean, you're right in the heat of it, Lindsey, sitting in those classrooms every day with students tell us about decodable text and what it looks like in your classroom and how you utilize it with students. And maybe even with households if you're helping parents with decodable texts and having them what does that look like? I love decodable

Lindsay Kemeny: 2:58

text. And that was a big transition in my classroom when I started learning about the science of reading. And really, that's one of the things that made me start questioning how I was taught because my first year of teaching kindergarten, the books that were provided to me were not decodable texts, they were predictable, repetitive texts, it was things like let's clean out the kitchen, let's clean out the garage, let's clean out the laundry room, the only way for the students to read those texts was by looking at the picture and guessing or predicting from same thing to me memorizing the pattern. And so when I saw that when I was first teaching kindergarten, I was like, Ah, I want them to practice their letter sound knowledge, I want to show them how they can read now that they have learned their letter sounds. And these books, were not doing that. And I felt like they were giving the wrong idea of what reading is for the students. So then I wrote a grant to get decodable books in my classroom. And it was I just remember the first time had this little boy he had dyslexia has I guess, and I remember him reading that little decodable book. And he goes, Mrs. Kemeny, I'm actually reading the words. And he was so excited. I wish you could just I wish you could hear his little voice because he was just thrilled. So it was awesome. There's so much I could say about, right. Yeah.

Donell Pons: 4:26

And Lindsey made some really good points. some really interesting things that came up when you were talking, that whole idea of of guessing and having students guess, because what it is, is that the words in we've all seen them to the repetitive sentences, but the students aren't necessarily taught the words within those repetitive sentences. So like you say, it does promote this idea of look at the picture and guess the idea of memorizing the words by size that are the same, right, but you're not necessarily really understanding those words and taking them apart. So you made some really interesting points there. And then I was just thinking to the work that I do with old Are students that I typically work with students that are Middle High School and adult that did take away, the only thing they did remember from those experiences when they were younger and struggling with reading and not getting the help they needed was to guess. And they're still doing that, as adults, right. And as older learners and older students, and this the power of that decodable text, as you say, the young young guy in your classroom, that for the first time, he's got a decodable text, because he's been taught the skill, that's the other critical piece that you pointed out, is that it goes along with your teaching. And so the students been taught the skill, and then he's able to use the Decodable text to practice the skill. And it's interesting is I'm able to kind of scratch around and find decodable texts that a student that's a little older, maybe wouldn't would be okay reading because a lot of it as you say, it's very difficult as you get older, Stacy pointed out, this isn't deep literature, right. And the older you get, you may be less patient with something that isn't deep literature. So that's the challenge for the older student is finding a text that is still decodable. So they can have those opportunities. And Lindsey, when you said, I wish you could see that young guy in my classroom, I get to see that young guy only as the older unfortunate student that never had a chance to decode a text, and be able to read for the first time a sentence where they could take apart every single word and understand it in a sentence. Wow. You know, I'm sure you know, it feels like you do looking at those younger students. So we're both seeing the power of that decodable text.

Stacy Hurst: 6:23

Yes. just interject to just to when Lindsay was talking about that student. And I had, of course, similar experiences when I taught first grade. But one heartbreaking experience I had based on the type of text I had access to the same as Lindsay mentioned, it was leveled readers. And I had in my first year of teaching a student who was repeating first grade. So already he was showing signs of a struggle. And I remember we were he was very aware that all of his friends who have gone to second grade, and he was in first grade, and we were a couple weeks, maybe a few weeks into the school year, I had conducted one of my guided reading groups, and he read a I was saying that with air quotes, he read a book. And it was very repetitive, I think it was along the lines of this is an apple, this is a banana, this is a watermelon, the pineapple that forced him to look at the picture to do that. And so knowing what I knew at the time, I praised him for that. And I said, you just read that whole book, and he looked at me. And you could tell I don't know that he was convinced that he'd read it. But I think the important thing was that he didn't have a clue what that felt like, because he looked at me and he said, Great, does that mean I can go to second grade. Now, conversely, I was reading with an older struggling student and in elementary terms, older means third, fourth or fifth grade. And the student was in third grade, and had been exposed to that level text his whole school experience. His third grade teacher told me he was on a kindergarten level. So level see, as the level text went, if I could help him out, read with him see what was going on. So she gave me a book on that level for him to read. But he'd been on that level since kindergarten, had the word elevator in it, I remember that. And I remember thinking, I'm not going to use this book to get a sense of what he can do. I knew what they were learning in phonics. So I used a decodable reader with him. And he was such a reluctant reader. And he didn't even want to read to me at all. And he was a very quiet kid, but definitely determined to not read. And so I bargained with him. And I said, I will only have you read two pages. That's it when you can stop. And he looked at the book as struggling readers do kind of like okay, well, it seems to be like there five or six words on a page. I guess I can struggle through that, right. But as he started reading, he was actually reading the words, he got to page four. And I was having this internal struggle, because I had promised him we'd only get to read two pages. And he was already on four and just going and so I did stop him. And I said, Oh, I promised that you would only have to read two pages, you're on page four. And so you know, we probably should stop. And he said, No, I want to keep going. And I had never you know, the teacher when I told her about it. She said I've never seen that level of excitement with him. He came back to class and said, I read a book. You know, that's the power of that. It's so tied to motivation. We talked about decodable text is not literary or kind of, you know, boring for those of us who are proficient readers, but for those beginning and struggling readers, it has a lot to do with life and when they are reading.

Donell Pons: 9:38

Yeah, it's opportunity, right. It's opportunity to get into the text. Lindsay, I wanted to come back to you because you're again in this interesting space. And I wanted to ask what is the relationship that parents have to use the reading instructor for their children because Stacy and I were kind of chatted about this a little while ago where the teacher in the classroom says it's my job I'm going to teach your student to read but what relationship do the parents have with that at Do the parents have a role to play with decodable texts to what are your thoughts?

Lindsay Kemeny: 10:03

Well, I definitely students can use more practice, I love to involve my parents by having them support their readers at home. And I feel like I do the heavy lifting. So I'm not going to expect them to teach them anything new, or, you know, I mean, this goes like to spelling but I'm not like going to send home a spelling list and expect my parents to teach them the same as I'm not going to send home a passage. And that's way too difficult for them, I guess. But I do involve them because I have, you know, kind of this homework system. And I've shared a video with them in some training and how to kind of work on fluency with their their students. But some of my students are not ready for our normal second grade fluency passages. So for those ones, I'm sending home a decodable passage, because they need to practice with their automaticity and getting their blending, you know, more automatic, so I definitely involve them that way.

Donell Pons: 10:57

Yeah, gosh, I love hearing that Lindsey. And I love hearing that you're putting out videos and and like you said, you're doing the heavy lifting. But there's a lot of information that can be shared with parents to enrich that time that they spend with their student make it the most that they can, right, right. And then I also love the differentiation, understanding that some of your students will be doing this activity and other students would be doing this other activity. And and you're allowing for that. Yeah. And then Stacey, I wanted to get back to you too. This is an interesting because you're in an interesting space now that you're teaching soon to be educators, right? You're in a university setting, and you're teaching those who are anxious, and we hope hungry to be teachers in classrooms, you're giving them this valuable information. And I would love to be a student in your classroom today. I mean, what a great experience, what is their take on decodable? Text? And have you talked about it yet? What does that look like at the university level, before they've even entered a classroom, when you're kind of having this abstract conversation about decodable text, they're well prepared

Stacy Hurst: 11:49

for that conversation, because we started with, among other things, and understanding of the simple view of reading. And I think that's a very important way to frame this. Because when we're talking about those two aspects of that equation, it is decoding and language comprehension. And the level text that I was using, before I knew better was very much supportive of language comprehension, but not reading and not decoding. And so my students actually have a much better framework and place to file that kind of texts I did the conversations I've had with students in the past, that's when I start seeing the shortcomings in my pre service education, because I think I didn't have the framework, the place to put it in and the understanding that it scaffold, and that eventually, we want our students reading any text that is in front of their eyes accurately and having access to the meaning of it, like you mentioned on Oh, yeah, a lot of my students have memories of Bob books specifically. Yeah, they don't have a lot of memories of actual and decodable texts. They don't share that. But they've the level text. Absolutely, they

Donell Pons: 13:02

remember lots of memories of that. That's so interesting. And Stacey, I'm so glad you brought up that made that point to have that foundational understanding to know where to put this where to place it have it make sense to those who are going to use it in their classrooms, and I love hearing about what your students are receiving in your classrooms, they're going to be so ready to hit the the actual classroom and teach students, I think it's fantastic. It made me also think about the space that I work in, I have this unique opportunity where we have students who have already moved along in the education system, they're considered to be and I'm going to air quote readers, right, because we've all seen this struggle to read in the United States, and how my students are kind of they've got a foot in each camp, I'm trying to help them to be able to provide that educational background and understanding of how we read in order to do it correctly, this time to give them their foundational building blocks. And so we need the opportunity to do that. But at the same time, they're spending their day having to access texts they don't have the skills for and so that's really kind of interesting, that compromise of the Middle High School and adult who really needs the opportunity to back the bus up, receive the foundation that they needed and spend time using those skills, with texts that's appropriate for the skill that's been taught. But then also during the day, they're being asked to access reading that is well above where their skills are right now. So that's a really interesting I kind of want to chitchat here a little bit on the section here. Taking those lower grades you can give us an interesting perspective, I'm hoping is transitioning the student from the Decodable text into other texts that's now not as controlled or as decodable

Narrator: 14:36

decodable text, think of it as training wheels for reading and as a crucial component to reading as we've been exploring today. There's more to discover about the journey to reading proficiency. To stay up to date on the latest insights and tips from the literacy talks podcast team. Sign up today for our newsletter by visiting Reading Horizons comm slash literacy talks

Lindsay Kemeny: 15:03

Well, I think the first thing to remember is that you are not only exposing the child to decodable texts, even in kindergarten, that's that's not the only thing you're making sure that you are reading them authentic literature, right and having those discussions working on that other side of Scarborough's row and like so now I'm teaching second grade. So let's say my students that are well below benchmark, and they're in decodable, texts, that is not the only text they're reading. So they are still with us when we're doing our whole group. And they're being exposed to the second grade, you know, it's complex texts for them. But they are reading with that with a lot of scaffolding. So we're reading it all together, they're following along, we're doing choral reading, Echo reading, finally, partner reading after they've had those scaffolds in place. So I think it's important that they're being exposed to many different kinds of texts. And then I will also add that I love the idea I have a lot of different decodable in my classroom, and I love the idea that some of them are less decodable. Because I feel like that can transition them. I have some that are heavily decodable, you know, 95% decodable, and I have some better 80%. And I love those because that's transitioning them into regular text.

Donell Pons: 16:17

Yeah, gosh, Lindsay, I love that. I appreciate you giving us that little background about all the texts that your students are being exposed to. And Stacy, what do you want to add to?

Stacy Hurst: 16:25

It just makes me think for a moment you asked that question that is 100. No country. Sounds really broad. We need to have more conversation about the formulas for those decodable texts and keeping things like that in mind. Yes, we know that it should be tightly connected with phonics instruction, we know that we know that to be able to comprehend what you're reading that you should be able to decode at least 95% of the text accurately and fluently. So we know those things. But then how do we transition? How do we support readers in text that is less decodable, to use the word and I loved to that Lindsay mentioned that we always want to be exposing them to the next thing, right. So in making that language rich, the three of us have had many conversations about this on that formula level, there are so many different formulas for decodable text. I remember in my school, we got a baseball program and they had a whole you get so many materials. And for teachers, it's kind of like Christmas at first because it opened all the new things. And so many books met a whole like four boxes of books that were labeled decodable readers, and I thought it was interesting. So I opened them up and what they meant they were calling them decodable readers, but they were high frequency word readers. And so just having those conversations on a grander level, and you know, appealing to researchers who are passionate about this to help us really refine what we know about how to create that text.

Donell Pons: 18:05

Yeah, I got so great. I'm Thank you Stacy for breaking it down and giving us a reminder about how we can come up with a formula to make something decodable. And Lindsay both of you have kind of made me think about about the students that I work with that are middle high school and even adults in the workplace. But I haven't mentioned having a husband who has dyslexia. And then of course, I went on to have two children who have dyslexia, one of them struggled more than the other what was interesting in watching my husband because of course, when my husband I discovered he had dyslexia, we were newly married, I didn't really even know what the term meant at the time. And it was a whole journey that changed my life, right, the whole focus of my life. And what was interesting is my husband found it as as we started to dive more into trying to help him to become a better reader because he had never ever become a reader that felt confident or comfortable reading. And we figured he was probably reading about end of third grade when we got married. But it was interesting because he started using the same books our children were using. And that was really his his first beginning before we got into a program to really give him a systematic exposure and how to help him with his reading. But he picked up those beginning readers, our children would bring home and he wanted to do that reading with them every night because that was something that decodable texts was something that he found he could do right even before we knew to teach and then have like decodable texts linked, there was a real comfort there that this is something I can do with my children. And I'm going to be able to pronounce these words, I can actually read this with my children. And he read all the kids would start so we had four children. And he did the first child, he did all the reading with that first child and use the Decodable text he did the second child that all the critical text picked up that their child he was in there every night nightly using that decodable texts. And then of course we got him a reading program later. But you know, it's been, Gosh, 20 plus years now since we've been working on his reading, and he just mentioned the other day, how important those experiences were for him to have a book he could pick up and read with his kids. And he said and I knew what it was. I wasn't kidding myself. I wasn't reading Tom Sawyer to my child. You know, it was a decodable text but he said it was the first thing I was actually able to read with confidence. Wow. Yeah. So it's a really interesting conversation we're having about this text.

Lindsay Kemeny: 20:06

Yeah. And that's a powerful story. Donal,

Stacy Hurst: 20:09

I've been talking about this in my class in regards to being able to read proficiently and know you're doing a good job at it. Yeah, have made the analogy between learning to drive a stick shift palette is clunky, and you worry that you're going to wreck the car or not be able to get started at a stoplight. But once you know how to do that, ironically, driving a stick shift becomes automatic to you, right, you don't even think about it. And it's really a complex process. And I think decodable texts kind of helps students get to that point without the fear and anxiety that can be associated when you're not doing something the way you see other people doing it, seemingly effortlessly. So I wonder to Donal about as you were talking, younger learners do not care that you're handing them a book that is highly decodable. And I've worked with adult learners too. Usually they were learning English and more than happy to use my first grade text to learn to read in English. But then you have those students starting probably about fourth or fifth grade that are highly sensitive to if you put that kind of text in front of them, it's going to make them look like they don't want to look right. So how do you approach that with your students in that age range? I would put it somewhere between, I don't know, fourth and fifth grade in high school all through high school into even into college a bit?

Donell Pons: 21:30

Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, this is a really interesting question. Because when I first started working with older students, I thought this would be harder than it was. But as long as I was sensitive to their need to make sure not everybody was watching. So we had a certain level of privacy, they were okay with it. And even when I matched up groups, because I didn't have a luxury of having people be one on one, but I knew we were going to have it maybe have a group of five or a group of six, and I made sure to match them up. And I spent a lot of time on that. And that's an important thing about teaching reading in the older grades is to make sure you spend just as much time matching groups if you don't have the luxury of one on one, so that their personalities fit as well as you can. And there's a comfort level as much as you can produce that is as important as what you're going to teach I find with those older grades. But I found that they just loved the opportunity to be able to read, they didn't care what it was. And as long as I presented it, as you'll be here temporarily, while we're learning the skill. If you're patient with me, you're going to see this pay off. And as long as you laid that framework and groundwork they were thrilled. But it was interesting, because Stacey, I think was delighted as what Lindsay described with her young readers to as I saw with my husband, they were just delighted that they could get through a text and have read the whole thing, sometimes for the first time. Right. And you're sitting in high school. That's the first time you've done that.

Lindsay Kemeny: 22:41

Yeah. And there's definitely something to be said about, you know, high quality decodable books, because some of them yes, what in the world that makes no sense whatsoever, you know, and I've had some of those. And then I've had other ones that are just beautifully written actually, with beautiful pictures and interesting, engaging storylines. So I think don't just judge one book that you've read, and just like, oh, I don't want to quotables there's, there's good ones out there. Definitely you

Donell Pons: 23:12

make such an excellent point. And we also today have the luxury of having a lot of really nice decodable texts, that's nonfiction or fiction, you can choose Object, right, so like you say, high quality text as well as important.

Stacy Hurst: 23:25

I was just gonna say with those readers in that interesting faith, too. I do things, just one that is worthwhile to have a very candid conversation with them. I know it's worked for me in the past to say I know you struggled with reading and that is okay. And I'm here to help and nobody needs to know, I'm not going to going to announce it because they've been faking it for so long, right? They've been compensating. And so they know. And I think that's why you get the results you do Donna, when you use decodable texts that may be from a you know, second or third grade reading curriculum, because they know that I'm actually doing the thing now, I'm not faking it in this case. And then I think there are things we could do as an industry. You know, anybody who's publishing these books were older learners. Some of the best decodable texts I've seen for struggling readers in those middle grades look like a chapter book. We can create it like that. I think they're going to be more likely to even carry it around and read it. I had so many struggling readers, two students ago that I tutored, he was just under graphic novels, because there were so many pictures that could support what he was reading, but also it was a thick book, his peers weren't going to look at him and say, What are you reading? All really important concepts. I think we could do better by them. And Julie, Washington lately has repeatedly said a lot about decodable texts for other readers. Yeah, no,

Donell Pons: 24:51

I love that plug, man. The more that we can say it, because I'm all about it when Dr. Julie Washington has said that at several conferences, and she'll tag it on even at the end of it. discussion if it's not part of the discussion to say, we really do need more decodable texts for older students, because we have more students in those spaces learning to read, and they need opportunities with text, right. And so we need that quality text as Lindsay was saying to make sure it's a quality experience that they're having with with the text. And I wanted to say something to Stacey, you brought up something interesting about graphic novels, because I love graphic novels, I've used them a lot in my classrooms, especially with older students, one of the things that one of my students pointed out to me years ago is, you know, you need to remember that there's a lot going on on the page in a graphic novel, and that that's very true. And he said, and oftentimes, I don't know where to look. And a lot of times, I don't know the direction, I'm still trying to figure that out. And they just assumed that you know, and he said, If I were a better reader, I probably would be able to figure that out. But he said, You just when you when you hand me that Be careful. And so Stacey, you've done a really good job of of bringing us back around to making sure you set the groundwork for the text no matter what it is, right, and that you have a conversation about what it is, and make sure your students feel comfortable with it, and that you're understanding their needs. And not making assumptions. Just because it might feel good to me or look good to me, doesn't mean it feels or looks good to my student to is are interesting things to talk about.

Stacy Hurst: 26:10

You know, it made me think of that snows talking about I think the visually right, there's so much going on in the graphic novel. And that as a genre in and of itself is pretty amazing. But we wouldn't want to limit anybody to one genre, because it's more illustrated at that point. But this was a really interesting workaround from that student I was talking about, he would come to a word he didn't know in text, he would type it into his phone, and then push in the Google search and push on the Image option and didn't know what it was. And so he his reliance on graphic novels, he was gathering information from the pictures. And you're right, though not always left to right. And they're kind of all over the place. And I really like that we're having this conversation, because as any conversation that we have, we can keep having it. My takeaways are actually questions. So what can we do to make that kind of a text decodable text for older readers who are struggling with reading are still developing that ability in a proficient way? What can we do to create that experience for them in a better way? Right? What can we do better? And then also, for younger readers, we're assuming a lot here, what could be done to make that even more effective than it is? And I think those are two big questions. And I hate to sort of end with questions. But what do you guys?

Donell Pons: 27:32

Lindsay, why don't you take younger? I'd like

Lindsay Kemeny: 27:33

oh, I don't know. But I wanted to say one thing about why I loved what another reason why I love decodable text is that I feel like they train the student to keep their eyes on the words and not guess. And it's just enough. I mean, we know the language in the Decodable texts can be just a little strange, even sometimes with her high quality ones. But it's I almost like that, because they've really got to tune in. And I've got I mean, it's just so common, like I have this little girl in my class right now who's just her eyes always going off, I was going off and and guessing the rest. And that's easier to do in a predictable text, or even a level text, those really smart kids can figure out the context pretty well. I was telling her today, have you noticed your eyes are seeing on the words, and now you're getting them right. And I love that with the quotables. Because they really they have to tune in. And it's good practice for them to decode a word all the way through

Donell Pons: 28:27

Lindsay, I love that I love you reminding us and looking at your students. So I mean, a couple of things really came together there because you were watching your student right not making assumptions about what's happening. And you were able to pick up on that and then really make the Decodable texts what it should be for her to experience that it should be that made me think about my older students and kind of that question you left us with? Stacey, I think it all maybe comes together and very much for the older students, they need to have those experiences too. Because you can imagine, if you didn't get a great teacher like Lindsay, then he ended up going through the grades with your eyes darting around the room and trying to find the answer. And it was okay to skip over and kind of miss. And so now as an older student, I'm now doing Lindsay the Lindsay job in the classroom and saying, Hey, let's look at this page. And I have words on this page that you've been taught how to take apart. So you know, you're going to be able to read these words and being able to bring that text into the classroom and the importance of it. And so I think Stacy, the students who really do appreciate if they're being taught the skills that they need in order to use that decodable text and see the value of it, right? Because if they have never been taught that they're not going to see the value of it, but they're always taught so the students go right away. Oh, yeah, I see what we're doing. I get it, I get it. And then they're able to read and have those experiences they haven't had before. And then they know that you are going to be giving them many opportunities to not only read decodable texts, like Lindsay said, but to have other opportunities with text because you're always bringing that in and making it rich and asking them what they're thinking and what are they reading or what would they like to read what makes what's interesting to them. And having all of those conversations that have just loved this conversation. I'd loved hearing more about the younger grades as well in forming and Stacey about your students who are in a college setting that We're going to be going into classrooms I loved hearing about that we could go on forever on decodable tags, but it doesn't take us long to feel a few minutes. But this has been a great discussion. I appreciate being able to see those two aspects of it and look forward to having yet another conversation and who knows what it will be next time.

Narrator: 30:17

Thanks for joining us today for literacy talks, the podcast series for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Literacy talks comes to you from Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Join us next time