This episode of Literacy Talks explores how reading leaders and practitioners can collaborate. Our shared goal? To help teachers learn and apply the methods of reading science to help all students achieve reading proficiency and confidence. Our Literacy Talks trio offers practical, actionable steps to translate research into practice and build stakeholder support and enthusiasm along the way.
Subscribe to our Literacy Talks podcast digest and never miss an episode! We’ll send you summaries of every session, links to the resources discussed on each show, and some extra goodies so that your learning never stops.
Subscribe to our podcast digest.
Download the new Reading Horizons Discovery Product Guide.
Access the show notes.
Read the transcripts.
Hello literacy leaders and champions. Welcome to literacy talks. We are so excited to welcome you to this podcast series from Reading Horizons dedicated to exploring the ideas, trends, insights and practical issues that will help us all improve our professional practice in teaching reading, are a series host is Stacy Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Officer at Reading Horizons, we're reading momentum begins. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education. And Lindsay Kemeny, a Utah based elementary classroom teacher. Today's topic, a movement building momentum. Let's get started.Stacy Hurst:
Welcome to another episode of literacy talks. I'm Stacy Hurst. And I'm here with Donell Pons and Lindsey Kemeny, where we talk a lot about literacy. So we're happy to have you along for the conversation. So our topic today is specific to the science of reading, but how we can contribute to the movement and moving it forward and supporting all of the people involved. And lately, we've had a lot of focus on that the three of us participated on Saturday, in a broadcast that was talking about the science of reading as a movement, and specifically how we can help encourage and promote good practices based on the science of reading. So I thought today, we would just talk about ways to think of how we can support those people that we work with and our own learning to help promote these things. As we know, there are a lot of people who are still tied to old practices that those of us who were taught in college, and we just hung on to them for a long time. So change is hard sometimes. And I feel like it does take a village, so to speak. So I thought I would start by asking the question. I mean, obviously, we come to teaching from different perspectives and backgrounds. And Lindsay, your class classroom teacher, you were trained in balanced literacy practices, and you implemented them. I will admit, in my classroom, I've fully embraced. And then Dinah, you came to the science of reading, in large part because of your own children. So I think I'd like to start by asking the question, what are some of the supports or resources that you would have preferred in your journey to this place, especially as you were just starting to learn? So if you wouldn't mind just reminding us what drew your attention to what we are now referring to as the science of reading? And what do you wish had been in place for you at that time to help guide you on that path? Do we go first?Donell Pons:
You bet. Stacy, I would love to because you're right. My journey was a little bit different. My first career was as a reporter for the local newspaper, and I was a writer and reporter. And then I married someone that I had no idea had dyslexia. And I was introduced to dyslexia by just hearing him read. He didn't even know he had dyslexia was not a great introduction for either of us. And then it was so what is this? And why is someone so bright, clearly so bright, struggling with reading? And how does that happen? It hadn't been part of my story, my narrative. And people close around me, I hadn't realized until later had struggled. So that was interesting, too, that opened my eyes to struggles that were happening even in my own house that I wasn't aware of. So that was the way that I came to. It's not a great introduction. I love today, there's so much information that's so fantastic. The you don't have to blindly stumble along until you can find you know, this great book in the library and start to do your own research. Rather, we have a whole host of information. Now it might be information overload, what's the best thing and sifting through, but I remember specifically, I was standing on the steps outside of the school building, and I was waiting for one of my first two children. And my son was that duck to water reader had taken to it just like I had as a young person. So I didn't really think much about how did I come to reading and a woman leaned over next to me a neighbor. She was a speech language pathologist, and she said, So what do you think whole language of phonics and I didn't have a clue. I didn't have coaches even talking about didn't mean anything to me, didn't have a clue. Later, that would become my entire life. So I think what's interesting about this whole discussion about the science of reading, I think, perhaps for some of us, the science of reading, we come to it because we have to it's our oasis in the desert there is no other place to go, we are, we are thirsty, and there is no water to drink. Those of us who have people who are struggling in our lives who have never been able to read well, right. And so that's yeah, desperation, you are coming to the science of reading. And then there's a group of other individuals who for them, and I used to be part of that group. Men don't know how they came to reading, but it just worked out great. And they love to read. And so coming to the science of reading, I can see how that might be a different journey, and isn't the same lingering and hunger that someone has, who has people who are struggling, and say, so I even mentioned earlier today, when you are able to provide the pieces that the research that large body we're talking about, remember, it's not a conference or anything like that this is a body of research we're talking about, when you have those practices in your teaching individuals who have struggled for a very long time, finally, conquer those mountains. And they always turn to you and say something similar, like this, like you can see inside my brain, and you know what I need, you're never gonna hear that any other way. The other one is, I never thought I'd be able to read, I've done you've done amazing things. This is so good for me. You hear things like that? That's the difference, right?Stacy Hurst:
So you're saying that at your particular juncture, you wish you had more information available to you right? At that time,Donell Pons:
I had to do a lot of sleuthing, and I'm also acknowledging that not everybody will have the same hunger for it, it depends on your background, right. And so our journeys will look different. And that's okay, because I, I think we're kind of expecting everybody to want the same things, or maybe look the same way perhaps. And maybe that's where some of the disagreement might come, some of us might take a while to get there were different things will motivate us might take different experiences. And some of us are going to run towards it, because we need it so much, right? So the journeys are going to look different toStacy Hurst:
I think that is really fair to call out. Because on the other end of that spectrum, perhaps we have teachers who are very happy with the way they've been teaching, reading, and then getting a lot of support, or a lot of results. Most of their students may be learning to read with whatever they're doing. And they're being told that they now need to have this training or implement new practices that are aligned. And so they're not coming from it from a point of desperation, but more mandate. So I think that's important to acknowledge. Because though, how we support those people, depends wholly on where they're coming from. That's a really good thing to point out. I also love your story, because as with any movement, there are a lot of different stakeholders, everybody, as a society should be invested in this issue, my opinion, but we have parents that we cannot leave out of the equation, we have administrators, we have teachers, we have the children themselves, we should never lose sight of that. And the students. So there are a lot of people that we could consider in these scenarios. Okay, so Lindsay, tell us about where you started with all this. And what yeah, she had been in place.Lindsay Kemeny:
Two things going on. One, it was my first year teaching kindergarten. So I started what I'm teaching them the alphabet, and then I'm bringing them back to my table, and I have these predictable texts to give them. And I find myself having to say things like, look at the first letter. Can you figure out the word look at the picture? Does it give you a clue, which are all things I used in second grade, I was heavily trained in those strategies with balanced literacy and never saw a problem with them until I was teaching kindergarten. And I realized, wait, I want these guys to practice for sound symbol correspondences. I want them you know, to apply what I'm teaching them and now I'm having them move their eyes off the word and guessing you know, and, you know, I had taught when I taught second grade way back, you know, I taught games like yes, the covered word, you know, and I thought nothing of it. I felt like I was brainwashed. So and then at the same year is when my son was diagnosed with dyslexia and similar to Darnell, that's really what made me dive deep into okay, what is going on? How can I get him to learn how to read that brought me to the wealth of information that we now call the science of reading. I didn't necessarily call it that then. So it was like Darnell, was saying this was a necessity. And this is the only way he was going to learn how to read. And what I wish I had back then Well, well, first of all, I wish I hadn't been taught faulty theories of reading in the first place. Like, I was really mad. Not only was I not given tools to teach my, you know, struggling readers, but I was taught the wrong way to teach reading, really, and I know that's hard to hear for people and they say, No, there's not a wrong way. I think there is because those three queueing strategies are just developing these bad habits in these students and it might look like those kids are reading And really in kindergarten? It does, it's a lot easier to have them memorize the pattern and the text and just read those predictable text that's so much easier to listen to, to as a teacher, because you're like, yes, they're getting it. But they're not a couple years down the road, they're just, they're gonna fail. And so it's longer to hear them sounding out a decodable book, it's, you know, it's hard. It's a struggle, but that's what the brain needs to do. That's what needs to happen for them to learn how to read. So sorry, I'm getting a little passionate about it. But yeah, you're just asking like, what I wish I just I wish I had known those things from the start, because I could have helped more students.Stacy Hurst:
i All of that is really resonating with me. And I think I've been in this for long enough now that I've worked through a lot of the emotions I've had related to I wish I'd known that sooner. Those of you know my story, you know, that I actually did look to research early on in my career. So I count that as a great blessing that I really relied heavily on the National Reading Panel Report, which was published two years before I started teaching. And so there are a lot of things that I had access to. But I am still trying to remember how I even learned about that National Reading Panel Report, because I can still ask people what those five components are and they can't answer. So when Dinah you were talking about information to be available? And you mentioned now there's too much information? Where do you think we should point people to start?Donell Pons:
You know, the thing about it is, as Lindsay mentioned before, as a kindergarten teacher, it's easier, certain things are just easier, it's just easier to listen to kids do. And the thing about it is, as a lot of this information isn't easily or readily accessible it, you're gonna have to do some work, right to unpack a lot of it. It doesn't. There's some spoon feeding of some things, you can read some articles, which are great. We've talked about Emily Hanford articles on literacy, I think those are fantastic places to start. But eventually, if you are a practitioner, you're going to have to get into the nitty gritty, you're going to have to get into the research of the study and understand. So you can understand not only why you're doing what you're doing in your classroom, but how to do what you're doing in the classroom. And oftentimes, I see a disconnect between that you can attend a great conference or a great training. But then you could return to the classroom. And it's no, no, how do I do that? What what does this look like in my classroom? And so it sounds like, oh, great, we'll just mention a couple of books, we'll be off on our way. If it were that easy. We'd all have done it by now. And there wouldn't be such resistance to doing it because there's a fair amount of resistance because let's face it, it's not easy to do. But there are some seminal pieces of work. I think for for me, a game changer was when I purchased David Kilpatrick's book, equipped for our Essentials of assessing preventing and overcoming reading difficulties. That was a game changer. The book is 2015. You know, I've been seeing a lot of pieces here and there and pulling things together. But really, that book, he brought it all into one place. He laid it out very well you could follow it. He was thinking about educators, one of the first conferences that he did after the book was in Utah here, we invited him. And he came and he was so gracious. And in a conversation, a sidebar conversation we were able to have, I was telling him how how useful I thought the book was, I had an old dog eared and everything you could see I was using it. He said, I'm so glad to see that because that's what I wanted to see it's for educators really was his audience. So that for me is a seminal piece of work. It still is, I think it is a great piece of work. And then of course, Dr. Louisa Moats, we're seeing letters training, marching across the country, we're having letters trainings, in most states, oftentimes it's mandated. A lot of them are naming it right inside of pieces of legislation. And that's excellent science of reading based instruction about why we do the things that we do in reading covers a lot of the areas. But again, there's the training that gives you that background, but then that might not necessarily translate to what a teacher does in the classroom come Monday. And I think throughStacy Hurst:
those of us who are involved with teachers, we are teachers, how we support our colleagues in that mission is important. I was in school today, my students are working with kindergarten students, therefore classrooms of kindergarteners, and I saw some really amazing things in one classroom, students who are doing the thing they were reading, they were spelling, they were focusing on the sounds, they were making those phoneme grapheme connections, same school down the hall, not so much. So I know that there can be tension among coworkers when it comes to that. But I can also tell you the results that that teacher that I witnessed the phoneme graphing mapping happening, her results are speaking for themselves. And I think that's going to be key toNarrator:
colleagues helping and supporting colleagues. That's how we'll work together to ensure all students can read proficiently by the end of third grade. To stay up to date on the latest insights and tips from the literacy talks podcast team, Sign up today for our newsletter by visiting reading horizons.com/literacy talks.Stacy Hurst:
Lindsay, you're currently in the school setting. And you are in contact with educators across the country daily? What do you do to support them?Lindsay Kemeny:
Yeah, it's, you know, I think it's easier to be supportive online than it is face to face, face to face is a little bit trickier. When, you know, it's hard to know how to answer that question. But part of change is being really vulnerable. So online is a little bit easier, because a lot of times the people that are coming to me are already kind of ready for it. And a teacher that might be just right down the hall might not understand why she or he needs to change. And so you can't really force that on people, they've got to kind of see it, you know, and I try to kind of like what you're saying, I mostly try to lead by example, like, look at my scores, look how my students are doing. I love when teachers come and ask me questions, because I love to help them that way. But I have a hard time. Like, I don't want to be pushy, and get in people's faces about it, you know. So it's just a fine line. But it's really great now, because originally when I first came to this knowledge, this knowledge base of reading, I felt like an island, I felt like I was all alone. And it was really great reaching out nationally, because then I kind of found my people. But now it's so exciting, because our district and our school are all doing letters training. And we were getting together last year and meeting every week and talking about the things we are learning. And it was so exciting for me to have these conversations with the people in my building. I loved it. So it's good changes coming. But it's hard. And you don't want to step on toes, you know? Yeah. But then the parent side of me wants to step on task. I don't want other kids, I don't want other kids to go through what my child went through. And luckily, I'm not in a heavy balance literacy district, although it's kind of like the most popular way. So when people go to get things from Teachers Pay Teachers or, you know, whatever, there's bounce literacy practices, my school district, heavily, heavily trained. I don't think I could go back and teach in that district. I'd have such a hard time.Stacy Hurst:
Yeah. Interestingly, I think I've evolved, I was in the position of being a literacy coach and reading specialist in a school. And I do remember recognizing early that a big role was to help disseminate the research, those research studies are not written for your average first grade classroom teacher, you have to know how to read research. And you have to dedicate the time to getting meaning out ofLindsay Kemeny:
those studies, and not my teachers half the time. No, and IStacy Hurst:
remember as the teacher and I think I've shared this with you guys before, I did read the first grade studies before I started teaching first grade, because the title made it so obvious that I needed to read that. But that was over the summer before I started teaching. And it took some time it took some investment. But I do remember, as a teacher, I loved doing the thing. I do love translating that research into practice, that was something that I was curious about and passionate about. And I followed that passion. But I also remember the same time, you're getting ready to do my reading groups or whatever. And having this poll of like, I wish I had more time to study, I wish I had more time to dive into these things. And so I feel like anything we can do to help our co workers have that more available to them or anybody that we're interfacing with it about this. And I love that Darnell used to readily recommend a certain book, you know that it's at the tip of your tongue in your fingertips. This is a good place to go first. I think that's really helpful. I was the it was hard. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Lindsey.Lindsay Kemeny:
Oh, well, I was just gonna say I think the most important thing like a teacher can do. And like we need to encourage other teachers just to learn, you've got to build your knowledge, especially right now where we have so many misconceptions about what the science of reading is, especially as more and more people hear about it, I hear things or the relating certain practices to the science of reading that aren't necessarily, you know, aligned with that. And so it's concerning to me, we wanted to get the word out there so much and now I'm like, Ah, I want to protect the term science of reading because now anybody slaps it on the product, anyone's using it. So it's just it's just on us to build our knowledge base on this and on the research, scientifically based research on reading, so that we can ascertain if something is aligned or not, is this a good practice or not? And we just use Know how to raise our level.Stacy Hurst:
I love that. And anytime there's a new initiative or new focus, I see this in teachers, and I probably did this myself, this is what I'm used to doing. I'm gonna keep doing it. I love it. It's my pet thing. And so I will make it fit into whatever they're telling me I need to do next. Right. So I did have a lot of teachers early on that would say I do teach phonics Of course, we teach phonics, we teach spelling, you know, but then you're saying, Are you teaching it systematically? Are you teaching explicitly where's your sequence, and then there wasn't one. And so just being aware, I think is really helpful. I feel like I'm getting to the point in my career is interesting, because I have read Louisa Moats and others research on teacher knowledge, I replicated that study for my master's thesis. And I know the research, one of the things I remember being shocked about, now I'm not, is that professors didn't score any better than the in service and pre service teachers taking the same survey about the constructs of the English language that we need to know to teach reading. That surprised me at the time. But then I thought back to my own education. And now I'm at a point, I understand I am at a great university that I have a lot of support my co workers, whether they teach reading classes or not, are taking letters, they're learning, they're coming to me with questions. And so I'm grateful to be there to help them as we learn together. I love that you pointed that out, Lindsay, because as teachers, we somehow have lost the part of that definition that we're learners. First. We're all learners first and always right, because we want to model learning for our students. But I also get equally frustrated. Now I'm taking it personally, when I hear people say, Oh, I feel like the blame has shifted from teachers in the classroom, to professors. And I don't think blame I don't know how productive it is identifying sources of the problem. Yes, but blame not so much. But I am taking it personally. Now, I already know I'm in the minority of university professors teaching reading, and aligning to the science of reading, but I get really mad when I hear people say, Well, they're not teaching it to our pre service teachers. So I feel like there's a way that we can help support what's happening in universities, and that is upstream. But it's not currently something we've focused on. What do you guys think that you would like to see teachers know, out of the gate? What would you like to see in our universities change?Donell Pons:
Yeah, so Stacey, we've been having this conversation, it's really relevant, because right now a lot of legislative sessions are occurring across the country is is a key time to be pushing legislation. And you're going to hear all kinds of things. There are some pushback against this legislation. And I've been on both sides of this, I've been all around it. Because I came into this, obviously, as a mother of students who struggle, realizing that what was occurring was not sufficient, not just for my students, but others could benefit as well. And then diving into it from the advocacy and the grassroots advocacy. And so I joined Decoding Dyslexia right off, and then immediately you're put to work, you end up at the Capitol, and you're doing a lot of this, you're on the inside now looking in as to how do we make these decisions? How do we really change things inside of a large system? It looks like it's unchangeable. And then working at the Board of Education, also showing up there going to meetings, being vocal, trying to be supportive as well, how can we make change? How do we help all of these students? So there's a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes and a lot of levels of advocacy, there isn't just one, it's going to take a lot. So when you see key pieces of legislation, they typically have a lot of levels to them. That's when you know that some homework has been done. Because this is more than just one. Yes, we need our schools of education to be teaching the science of reading. Now, what does that look like? Is it a letters training, that we now allow professors to be able to do those letters training so that we can have more people benefiting from that, we ought to be looking at that. So we're going to have letters training across the country, and everybody's going to be utilizing it, that it ought to be more versatile, so that we can have it used in more situations in more ways. I'm all for that, too, we have to look at it. So this is going to take a lot of us being willing to be open to doing things a little bit differently and working together. Because there are schools of education, there are teachers that are already in our schools that are receiving training, and they're getting that lovely letters training, who couldn't look the same perhaps for those entering. We're also going to need our administrators who are over particularly elementary schools to be trained so that they have a background because a lot of them are choosing the curriculum that will go with this training. So as we're talking, it's like what would you like to see? There's a lot of layers that we'd like to see. And eventually when you do make change, you got to have all those layers. We're seeing states like Mississippi, Connecticut, those that are seeing great change. Those are the had good reading scores, and people are now starting take a page from the playbook and implement it in other parts of the country. But that's kind of the long answer to the big question.Lindsay Kemeny:
Yeah, well, I just get really frustrated when I hear of these people that are pushing back. Because I'm like, wait, we're just saying our instruction should be aligned with high quality research. I mean, like, how can you push back against that, and I love what Dr. Tracy Weeden said last week at that event that we watched from the reading League, where she said, adult egos are our biggest barrier. And sometimes I find that the people that are pushing back, really have some skin in the game, somehow, they've been invested money they have they've created products, you know, not all the time. Go ahead, Donnelly.Donell Pons:
Lindsey, I love what you're saying. And he just made me want to say that you're right skin in the game, there's some reason why we're getting this resistance. Because otherwise, I'm caring people's hearts, and souls and dreams, and wishes. That's what I'm carrying are the people who have struggled their entire lives to learn to read. And so when I face opposition, I just feel stronger, because I feel like I'm carrying all of those stories of individuals that I've had to tutor over the years, and all that they have lost all that they wish they could have had, and you just can't quit. You just keep going.Lindsay Kemeny:
We need to fight for them. And they can't fight for themselves a lot of times. And I know it's hard as a teacher, I felt so much teacher guilt. And I think you got to move past that too. Because it's like the steps of the grieving process, you know, where you're like, you know, you're in denial. And you're like, I don't know, my kids are doing great. And you've got to take a deeper look. And could they be doing greater? And could all of them be reading? And how are they doing two years down the road and try to have grace with yourself and with others, you've got to push past that and say, Okay, I can do better. I know better, I do better. And try not to fight it and get defensive was reallyStacy Hurst:
timely for me to hear. Very sweet and say that too. I just invited my students to read Emily Hanford article. And for some reason this particular class got super fixated on can Goodman, I didn't find it out. Sometimes I call it out. Sometimes they do say, but they were like, Why? Why did he insist on his deathbed, basically, he said, well, not my sights. They were the ones that noticed that. And so when I heard Tracy Wheaton say that he immediately came to my mind, I hope he is resting in peace. Don't get me wrong. I respect his passion. However, yeah, I think in that case, and many others, it is ego it is, this is the way I've always done it. And maybe, maybe just the reason I get so frustrated and take really personally when people call out universities and colleges of education is because some of that pushback or maybe even a lot of it starts there. And that's upstream. That's where I in my opinion, that's where I think we can make the biggest impact the fastest is if we could get that change in our colleges of education. That's probably just from my perspective, right. Now, I'm going to ask you the same question. In conclusion, so be thinking about it. But I also I don't want to reduce the problem to an oversimplified solution. But some of this is culture specific, too. So it's systemic, but we need to change the way so blame, probably not going to get us very far right. And shame, blame and shame. Nothing ever gets resolved that way. But I think if we keep our sights on the heart and soul of it, like you were just talking about don't know the stories. And yeah, the teacher guilt that we have, I see faces that I could have done better by and their kids to me, they're in their 20s, baby, even 30s. They're still six years old, in my mind. But I also think if we could just change our culture as teachers to that learner perspective, staying curious, following our curiosity, leaning into it, and modeling. Yeah, being a learner is vulnerable, you are admitting that there's something you don't know, which I am painfully aware of daily in my life, but then leaning into that, and learning from it, and moving on. So anyway, in conclusion, last question, then what do you think we could do that you feel like would make the biggest difference? Either obviously, no right or wrong answer. But from your perspective, where is one place we could focus? I've already stated I think mine is in the colleges of education. And I do think we're legislating that teachers pass the Foundations of Reading tests and pre service teachers before they get their license. Our college professors need to be taking that test and passing it. And I don't know, I know many that killed many that I look up to and revere, and I know they, they probably wrote the test. I feel like that would be a good place to start in our colleges of education and not in the blaming way but providing support so that we can prepare our teachers the best way that we can. Okay, I'm seeing their faces on the screen if you're all deep in thought, soDonell Pons:
I'm going to give you my diplomatic answer and then my nuts so different. So the diplomatic answer I'm going to side with you to having been on all levels of this thing, I think our schools of education, if we could get those on board, that would be like turning the Titanic, that would be a way of turning that Titanic more quickly. I'm with you there. Okay, my less diplomatic answer. Question. And I have dreams of this. Sometimes, you know, midnight, if I'm not able to sleep, and I'm thinking about literacy. This is one of those dreams I have. But if we had every student who was underserved, and did not learn to read properly, and had challenges that were never acknowledged, recognized, and they didn't receive support, if they all join together, and we all filed a class action lawsuit in one day, can you imagine, because that would really tell the story. Because for too long, they've suffered in silence. It's the loudest silence I've ever heard.Stacy Hurst:
So do you know I think those of us who are teaching and who are proficient readers, we don't see it sometimes. That's why I love that we have people like both of you, who have really personal experience with this with your own children. And that is what we need to bring to light, there are more people than we knowDonell Pons:
the loudest silence. Silence, ILindsay Kemeny:
was gonna repeat that as well. Now, I think we could end right there the loudest silence, that is powerful. It's like my son, I'm going to fight for him every step of the way, I'm there for him. But what about the kids that don't have someone there for them, who fights for them, I want to fight for them to you, I've visited another classroom with this little third grader that would keep his head down on his desk the entire day and refuse to do anything. And if you went over and talk to him, he put up his head and you'd say, I'm illiterate. I'm illiterate. And then he put his head back down. And he had just completely shut down. And that is what's happening to these kids. And we need to keep them in the forefront of our minds. While we're thinking about all the science of reading and, and how to best help our kids. You know, it's about everyone not just about teaching reading to the ones where they're going to learn to read no matter what. And it doesn't matter which way you know, there's more, there's more students to consider. So it's hard Stacy to answer the question, because I agree with you and the teacher prep programs need to change. But then I don't want to just say that because we have so many teachers out Hills right now that could use this knowledge right now. And I just want to say to all the teachers that are listening out there, and really anyone in this journey, baby steps, take baby steps, it can be overwhelming. You guys have been studying this for years, I've been studying this stuff for four years, and I make little changes every day. Every year. There's new things I'm implementing, and be open, you have to be vulnerable. Every time I go into like a workshop or a training, and I'm like, Oh, I think I know this, I always learned something new. And that's the thing with the science of reading. I love that we can have these healthy debates, we can refine our practices. It's not all settled, we have to keep an open mind all the time.Stacy Hurst:
I love that. So yeah, I think we can reduce it to having a learner mindset and helping, I guess modeling that I need to do better, but modeling it and helping others to adopt that too. And not to blame and shame. And to your point, Donal, I call it my filter. But there are sometimes things that come out of my mouth, you and I both did an EdWeek webinar today. And we were talking about this very thing, systemic change and the need for that. And I literally the phrase that kept coming to my mind that we could not say would be you can't have ace this, I said a change the vowel sound. And you'll know what the actual saying is. But this is not just on the teacher, this is not just on a professor, this is not just on a single principal or literacy coach, this is on all of us because it will benefit every buddy it will help us to all become the people, we have the potential to be better than we even are now. And so it's in everyone's best interest to stay engaged with this movement and help to move it along. Thank you for your perspective today. And to end it just to say that we just need to work together, let's change the culture, the way that we look at teaching and maybe focus more on learning for us as well. And applying what we're learning and extending grace and trying to remember what it's like to be in those people's shoes. Whatever ground your feet are touching. So thank you to all the teachers, all the principals, all the parents, all the stakeholders who probably if you're listening to this podcast episode, you're already invested. Just keep on keeping on I guess we'll see you next time.Narrator:
Thanks for joining us today for literacy talks, the podcast series for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Literacy talks comes to you from Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Join us next time