MTSS is more than a hot topic or a trend in literacy teaching and learning. In this Literacy Talks podcast episode, our three experts share their insights into making a Multi-Tiered System of Supports work to help students achieve reading proficiency. They talk emphatically about the need to strengthen Tier 1 response to intervention and the larger view of MTSS that encompasses a spectrum of supports, including professional development, small group, and individualized interventions. If you’re looking for a new and deeper understanding of what MTSS is all about, this episode is for you and your colleagues.
Subscribe to our Literacy Talks podcast digest and never miss an episode! We’ll send you summaries of every session, links to the resources discussed on each show, and some extra goodies so that your learning never stops.
Subscribe to our podcast digest.
Download the new Reading Horizons Discovery Product Guide.
Access the show notes.
Read the transcripts.
MTSS is more than a hot topic or a trend in literacy teaching and learning. In this Literacy Talks podcast episode, our three experts share their insights into making a Multi-Tiered System of Supports work to help students achieve reading proficiency. They talk emphatically about the need to strengthen Tier 1 response to intervention and the larger view of MTSS that encompasses a spectrum of supports, including professional development, small group, and individualized interventions. If you’re looking for a new and deeper understanding of what MTSS is all about, this episode is for you and your colleagues.
Subscribe to our Literacy Talks podcast digest and never miss an episode! We’ll send you summaries of every session, links to the resources discussed on each show, and some extra goodies so that your learning never stops.
Subscribe to our podcast digest.
Download the new Reading Horizons Discovery Product Guide.
Access the show notes.
Read the transcripts.
Hello literacy leaders and champions. Welcome to literacy talks. We are so excited to welcome you to this podcast series from Reading Horizons dedicated to exploring the ideas, trends, insights and practical issues that will help us all improve our professional practice in teaching reading, are a series host is Stacy Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Officer of Reading Horizons, we're reading momentum begins. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education. And Lindsay Kemeny, a Utah based elementary classroom teacher. Today's topic is MT SS multi tiered systems of support. Let's get started.
Stacy Hurst:Hello, and welcome to another episode of literacy talks where we talk about all kinds of things related to literacy. And today is no exception. I'm joined by my co hosts Lindsay Kemeny and Don Alphonse. And today we are going to talk about something that should impact everyone. And we're going to let Lindsay lead this discussion. So we'll just turn the time right over to you, Lindsey. So we can get right to it. All right,
Lindsay Kemeny:yeah. So we're gonna talk about MTSS, which stands for a Multi Tiered System of Supports. And I would like to just start with, let's explain what this is. Let's give a definition. It could be your own definition, or one you came up with, and you guys can just fight over. Who wants to go first.
Stacy Hurst:Let's go in alphabetical order. Who would that be? Oh, Donna.
Lindsay Kemeny:All right. Darnell, what is MTSS? You know,
Donell Pons:it's interesting, because you almost can't talk about MTSS with educators unless you mention RTI, because they've almost become synonymous, even though they aren't the same thing, which is interesting. And I know Lindsay, you'll get into that later. But in giving that definition of MTS s, it's the larger framework that encompasses behavior as well as academics. And so if you think of it as the bigger umbrella, and then within the inside of that, as the RTI MTSS also includes not just supports and systems for students, but also for teachers to receive additional training, and thanks. So that's MTSS encompasses those things. It's kind of interesting, because when I worked in schools, inevitably, teachers would tell me the two things were the very same thing. I wonder if the two of you have had that same experience.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, actually. I wrote a blog post about this in 2014. And actually saw cited in two places recently, and one of them was on Keys to Literacy website. So I revisited that blog post, and it was the, the title was, what is the difference between RTI and MTSS? So I think those two terms were used synonymously when we started applying this model to education specifically for reading, and it needed clarification. So my experience RTI stands for response and prevention, although a lot of us started referring to it as Response to Instruction. But also MTS s, like you said, Donna was just more comprehensive. And it includes another acronym, because we love those in education that we refer to as PBIS, which are positive behavioral supports. So it is more comprehensive academic and behavioral, and systemic. I felt like RTI could take place within a classroom within a grade level within a school. MTS is very much systems beyond that. So also district and hopefully state level supports as well. So that's when
Lindsay Kemeny:I was kind of reading online. Those were the main differences I saw like, yes, it's a larger framework, it includes behavior and other things. More of a system, I'm talking about MTSS. And beyond that in articles, like my eyes started to glaze over a little bit, and I'm like, wait, what? So what else? Do you think that's just the main difference? Or is there anything else important that you would add about the difference between MTSS and RTI?
Donell Pons:I mean, when we say is that just, it's a lot of just right? Is that just the difference? That's a lot of just so to give an example, in the school, I'm just going to give an example of one of the schools that I taught in, when I arrived, we had a serious issue with challenges across the board. It was a K through 12 charter. And we really were trying to address academics. It was really looking at reading, but then there we had a whole behavior issue that was going on as well. So in our setting, when we sat down as a team, we brought in a bunch of teachers, General, special education. We also had some speech language, you should see a lot of folks at the table when you're putting the structure together and and discuss the needs of the school our students within the school than what we had as our resources at the school. And really, you're looking at your situation and your students when you're talking about what can we do here? And what do we need. And we decided that we really needed an MTS S framework. We've been talking RTI, but what we really needed was MTS s. And so that was, that's really the beginning. And I've noticed a lot of the materials that I've researched to this past week to get a fresher view on what's happening. A lot of them began right there with you need to sit down and discuss as a school, what are the needs of our students? What are our resources, and then talk about the how those two systems might work together, one or both. He usually have RTI involved within your MTSS.
Lindsay Kemeny:I like that domino,
Stacy Hurst:sorry, MTS is a little more comprehensive, I think the main difference is maybe not necessarily a difference, but a heightened level of support. So it's just more support in a lot of different ways. And I did sense having been an educator who's experienced RTI and MTS s, that there is more of a focus on prevention, with the MTS S model, than there was RTI though that was also there. I mean, nobody wants students to fail. At the heart, it's all about supporting students and teachers, students, mostly. And that increases when we're talking about a more comprehensive, systematic support system.
Lindsay Kemeny:I love that a system of supports and how can we support teachers in the classroom at the classroom level? And then how can we support at the building level and then maybe at the district level, and it takes everyone kind of pitching in to make this work well, so I want to talk about the different tiers. And let's talk about what those look like. And we'll start with tier one. What is tier one look like? What does that mean to you? And they're saying MTSS? And tier one? What thoughts do you have?
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, if I could just say a few things. Before I get to the heart of that answer, too. I like thinking of MTSS as a framework. And those tiers are part of that framework. I think it keeps us safe from things like initiative, fatigue, it's the thing that stays constant. And we know within each of those tiers of support, and we're talking instructional supports, right? When we're talking about those tiers, that programs can change. Teacher knowledge can improve, but that framework stays. And so I think it's important as educators for us to understand that and work within that framework to help support our students. So when I think of tier one instruction, I feel like Don, and I were talking about this earlier today, I think that's our best effort, right there. It isn't preventative right, that tier one instruction needs to be the best that it can be.
Lindsay Kemeny:I love the phrase, you can't intervene your way out of tier one problem, right? We absolutely, we have to have our good solid tier one that's going to make sure that the rest of the tiers are a little smaller, we want our students supported well in tier one.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, so the support required would be less right in the tiers two and three.
Donell Pons:So just talking about that tier one, and really excellent support. In looking at some of the materials that I said it was looking at online, especially from the International Dyslexia Association, they've had several presentations by different schools that have really tackled this. And I really liked some of the materials I saw, they went right down to percentages, they wanted to see in each tear, if we're doing our job, our percentages should look like this. I thought that was really interesting. Because we're also another piece to this is data. So a big piece of RTI MTSS, is data, right? It's data driven in order to see are we getting to where we want to be? Also, are we finding all of the students who need to be receiving services or support right through our system. So data is a really big piece of it. But I thought it was really interesting to see that this school had actually homed in on this is the percentage of students who really if we're doing our job correctly, we should only have this many students who are needing to move forward. I think that's very important too, as our vision and goal of where we want to be, this is where we are, we know we can do better, where would we like to be in our data is going to help get us there, because it's going to be telling us how it's going with our students. And then that other piece Lindsey about us talking about that tier one in the classroom, really excellent instruction. I had the opportunity it was at that same school where we really had to be creative and and responsive about helping students because we had a lot of needs. And one of the things I think in the end that was so helpful, is we had a lot of individuals who were providing services in different settings and in small group and pulling students for different things. But really, when we all communicated we dedicated time that's another piece that I'm seeing is critical to the schools that are really implementing Well, is there are dedicated times for the groups to get together groups of teachers to discuss what's happening in their teaching experiences across those tears and they're sharing information about students. That's another key piece, and things really turned around for us. us in my setting, I know, when we were meeting with the general classroom teacher, and we were sharing insights about students thoughts on instruction, and we were using similar enough materials to help each other. And I'll tell you, our whole classroom teacher, the general teacher in that classroom, was so grateful and appreciative and really felt part of she said, for the first time in your teaching career part of a team, she called it swing, that's, that's some of the good things that happened.
Lindsay Kemeny:Yeah, I loved all that you brought up data, and I was trying to decide, you know, when to bring this into our conversation. But assessment and data is definitely a huge piece of this. And if you have a large amount of your students, where if you look at your data, and a lot of them aren't, you know, making good progress or aren't reaching benchmark, then you have a tier one problem. And it can be hard, you have to try to separate yourself from what's happening, right? Because it might not be you it might be the program you're using, or something. But if you have this, you know, if you're in January, and you have a large percentage of your students are below benchmark or not making good progress, then you have to say, Okay, I've got to change what I'm doing tier one. And at the beginning of the year, this year, I had over half of my students were below benchmark. And so how do you do tier two with 1213? Students? So that's when I knew okay, you know, I've got to make sure my Tier one is really strong. And I implemented a class wide intervention that I had learned about, and I needed intervention for everybody. So it's important. Let's go to tier two, then what is tier two? What does that mean? Well, if
Stacy Hurst:I could just comment on what you just said to Lindsay, I think an important aspect of Tijuana instruction is differentiation. That is not up to somebody outside of the classroom, although certainly people outside of the classroom can help with that. But that is generally the classroom teachers opportunity to help differentiate for each student. And I know that, as a teacher, myself, I, that's when I really felt like I was teaching. I know there's a lot of impact when you're doing whole class instruction. But it's is easy to differentiate in a whole class setting, especially if you're in a state like ours, we have really big class sizes. And so you have a lot of things to keep in mind at once. But that differentiation piece is really important. I was lucky early in my career as a literacy coach, we implemented RTI at the time and MTS s later in our school. And some of those things that we're talking about between the tiers. That is what's really important about MTSS. This is not only data driven, but team driven. And so we don't want to talk about these tiers in isolation, right? Like we're communicating across those tiers with people that will be involved in providing support for those students. And I think that's an important element of tier two instruction. What are the words that we usually hear associated with that targeted and strategic? And so it's just a little more focused on exactly what those students need to move them along. Also important to note to not label the students by tier, right? Yes, you're one student. He's a tier two student note. We're talking about instruction. Anytime we say tier, we're talking about instruction, not kids.
Lindsay Kemeny:Yeah, I love that. And everyone is, you know, everyone is serviced in tier one, right? We can't just say, Oh, this is a tier three student, and I'm not gonna worry about him because the special ed teacher teaches him or whatever, that's one of my pet peeves, right, Darnell,
Donell Pons:Lindsay, I'm gonna jump right in there with you. Because this is another thing I see happening is when we do apply a label, and we suddenly say, Oh, now that's a tier two kid, what I see happening is now that student isn't getting their tier one instruction in addition to their tier two. So remember, the dosing is important here. I'm entitled as a student to my tier one, and my tier two, not just tier two, and pull me out during my tier one, right? Like you were saying, Lindsay, so that's important is to remember that I'm a part of the tier one classroom to folks, and I'm getting my tier two instruction. If I need, I'll be getting tier three. The other thing is also this is fluid. So that's another thing too, is remember, just because I need tier two for this particular thing that I'm learning or this particular moment, doesn't mean I'm going to be in tier two for a lot of other things, or I may need tier three for this thing, and that down to tier. So again, this should be fluid, it works for the student, Stacy, you had a comment.
Stacy Hurst:So I have the opportunity to teach this to my pre service teachers to teach the MTS S model. And I know that various schools and districts across the country are in different stages of implementing this, I continue to be surprised how many schools are not or are only beginning it right. So I always do that with hesitation. This is what you should see. It might be functioning differently. But when we're talking about that very important piece, that there are layers for a reason those tears are layered on each other. They're not in place of and so one of the books that I use to help prepare for my class this year. I recommend it I think that copyright was 2016. But it's called integrated multi tiered systems of support. But the focus is on blending RTI and PBIS. So it's really been valuable information for me to add to what I know and refine what I know that m TSS, but I loved this. They are comparing actually this model generated out of the medical world. So I find that interesting. So you have all kinds of examples with that. So what we're talking about right now, this says on page 15, of that book, for example, we would never tell elderly patients that when they receive a flu shot, they can stop washing their hands. That makes perfect sense. And we're talking about students shouldn't have to stop washing their hands or getting that tier one instruction because they got a flu shot, or they're getting a little more targeted instruction.
Lindsay Kemeny:Great. But yes, absolutely, those students really should be getting a double dose.
Narrator:As literacy educators, we work to apply the very best, most effective instructional practices in our classrooms, multi tiered systems of support, or MTS S is a framework that supports our work and student success. For more information, visit reading horizons.com/reading resources. And while you're there, we invite you to dive into other topics from our literacy talks podcast series.
Donell Pons:If there's one thing that I want someone to take away from this, if they see that happening at their school, that's something we should really intervene on. Because that's the most egregious thing that I see happening when I visit schools, or when I work with students who maybe have an IEP, or maybe they're in tiered, and I find out that they're getting very little actual classroom instruction of tier one instruction, they're probably receiving the least amount of instruction than all of the students and they need the most. So I would say so important.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah. And, you know, I don't know you've had experience with this in a school setting, as have I and it is easy for us to say, this is what should be happening. But anybody who has had to manage or deal with juggle schedules know how hard it is to make sure that that happens. That's one reason it is so important that we prioritize literacy instruction, especially in those early grades in a way that we can provide that support for the students and for the teachers who need help delivering that support. So it's not as easy as it sounds, we recognize that I think we all recognize that. But what I see happening, especially when we're talking about integrating behavior into this model, which is critical, because all of that impacts the way a student learns, I've seen so many times that teachers or schools will just say, Well, you know, tier three instruction or tier two instruction that happens outside of the classroom, where we're just going to do that during Art. And so the student who needs that kind of instruction will just miss art. And you know, art is not as important to life is what they think or how they rationalize it, there's just no other time. But I've seen the impact that has on kids who miss art. And by the way, a lot of these kids, it's where they shine. And so we're taking away the very part of the day that they just love, I feel like it's really important that we allow for that,
Donell Pons:you know, I'm going to tag on to this too, because this is where my heart is, right? It's right here in this subject. So I've got a few things to say on it. And it's where a lot of the people that I love in my life, have spent their time in their education system. And, and it wasn't well spent for a lot of them. And that's why I'm so passionate about this is because it's so very important to do it and do it well. And it can make such a big difference in a student's life. So I think some big key takeaways, and I'm hearing Stacy say this too. And I just want to reiterate, because they're important is one, making sure that the students are receiving the best instruction when they're in that particular grade, like those early years K through three, when we hit literacy, it doesn't get easier to provide that really great instruction later, it only gets harder because students have more demands on their time. The other key piece is it is much easier to provide that too, when students have that time in one classroom versus then options for art and other things that should be adding to the curriculum, it becomes even more difficult. And we don't want to take those opportunities away from students because they need those as well. That's so important. And then another key piece that I see happen as well, when students are receiving services through an RTI model, say they're in a tiered system of support, then realize that there's a lot of demands on their time to that students time. So maybe there are assignments or things that have been given in tier one, that because the student has now been moved into a tier two or three setting and they're having other instruction, they may not be able to finish as much. So the quality of that work versus the quantity of that work becomes important. So that student isn't denied additional activities like we're all going out on a special trip, but you didn't finish so you can't go we need to be mindful that they're receiving additional instruction which may take away from the time they have to complete an assignment. So quality over quantity for those students who are receiving it issue instruction I think is important to
Lindsay Kemeny:absolutely so important to adjust sometimes the workload and to realize how much those students are working and Stacey you brought up like this is such a like a scheduling problem, it's a challenge, definitely, because the students that are being pulled out for, say tier three instruction because they have to miss something. So we don't want them to miss, you know, our good quality tier one instruction. We don't want them to miss science or social studies, we don't want them to miss art or PE. So when do you pull them, that can be really tricky in my classroom, right now, it works out pretty well, because I have kind of a intervention block, where the students are doing, you know, different activities, and I'm pulling small groups, it's also been our special education, teacher pulls groups, but I make that time a little bit longer, so that they're in the classroom, and I can pull them as well. So they're kind of getting a double dose of intervention there. And then they're not missing the tier one instruction. But I can definitely realize that that's one of the hardest things as a classroom teacher to manage what they're going to be missing, because we don't just waste time, most of us in the classroom, we have a lot of important things to be doing.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, I think that speaks to where we want to go with this kind of a model, right, because I know there's been a lot said MTSS, has been known about for a couple decades now, probably. And I know a few years back, there was a report that I guess people got from the data that it wasn't effective. But I can tell you from experience, that it's not the model that's not working, it's what we're doing with our instruction. So when we're talking about all of these challenges, which really comes down to time, and people probably, but when we're looking at that, if our tier one instruction, everything hinges on that, if we give them the best shot out of the gate, then that frees up the resources that we normally use in tier two and tier three instruction. And some schools have tier four, that will help us be more targeted, more intentional and less of a drag, and a pull on the other resources. When thing when we're talking about time, not only time for instruction for targeted instruction, that that data piece can't be overlooked. And when we implemented MTSS, in my school, we had a grant, we wrote a grant where we had enough time in the school day that as the literacy coach, I met with each teacher once a week, it happened to be when their students were at library and I had a room right off the library. And they came in met with me and we went over data. And we talked about those kids. And we talked about what they needed. And that's where we were able to organize it. But I will tell you because we had really great instructional interventions in tiers two and three are tier two and three students were outpacing the general classroom students, until we fixed the instruction in that tier. That's why we have terms like we'll use the word science when we're talking about reading instruction. And because it has to be aligned with what we know works. And when that works, the model will work for us.
Lindsay Kemeny:Absolutely. Okay, so we talked about tier one and two, but not so much about tier three. So how would you defined tier three? And how is that different than the others? So
Stacy Hurst:I think a simplistic way to define that is to think about, again, the words that we use in each of those tiers. In tier one, we often hear the term universal. So everyone, tier three, it's a lot more individualized. And with tier two, and between a lot of that kind of instruction, tier two instruction can be delivered in smaller groups or small groups. And I think of tier three, when I think of tier three, I think it's individualized, and some students need a lot more intensive instruction.
Donell Pons:And Stacey, we're probably monitoring those students even more. So we're checking in more often to make sure is this instruction headed in the right direction, right. So I also think that we're not only the instruction is more intensive, but also our monitoring of that instruction to make sure we're heading in the right direction goes back to assessment and data.
Lindsay Kemeny:Yep. If we were going to offer up some steps to take to implement MTSS. You know, I think we kind of already talked about how number one you've got to have a strong tier one. And so you know, we've got to train our teachers have a solid program to support our teachers. And then my opinion number two would be identifying those that are struggling readers or maybe have the potential and I think for that you need a really good screener. Would you guys agree? Or what's your next step? You would say? Well,
Stacy Hurst:assessment drives the whole model, right? So we have we know with MTSS we have universal screeners. There's that word universal again, we have diagnostic assessment for those kiddos who don't score well on the screener. We administer diagnostic to figure out how we can target our instruction. And then we monitor With the progress of that, and then, of course, our outcome assessment, usually at the end of the year, I heard the term autopsy report before and I just stick with that, because that's the, you know, the end of level testing, that once you get the results, they've moved on to the next grade. But all of that plays into how we make those decisions, right?
Lindsay Kemeny:Absolutely. So we need that screener to kind of see who's at risk, and maybe who we need to really keep our eye on. And then that diagnostic that Stacy's talking about is going to kind of dive in because a screener doesn't necessarily tell you what specific weaknesses the student has. So then you want to do a diagnostic, and find out where you know exactly what is going on with the student, where's their weakness. And I love that you brought up progress monitoring, because that is so important to monitor. And I don't like to think of it as how the student is doing, but I kind of think of it more as how my instruction is going for the student. And if they're making good growth, then you're like, awesome, it's working. If they're not, okay, we need to change something because something's not working.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, back to the term Response to Intervention, the Student Response to Intervention.
Lindsay Kemeny:I know, a lot of times people ask, well, how often should you progress monitor. And one thing I was thinking about is that it really doesn't matter. If you don't look at the data. So you need to look at what's happened. If you're, if you're not going to change anything, because of the results, then you might as well not be doing the assessment. So we have to make sure that we look and then we change things. And I had that, you know, last year, I had a student where we did, you know, our middle of the year, and he was showing below average growth. Now, everyone else in my class was typical, above or well above. So I knew tier one was good, it was okay. But everything I was doing for this child wasn't working. So I knew I had to change something. And so with him, I found out I just had to really pull him back by himself. Because he had such a hard time being distracted in the group and different things and maybe concerned what the other kids were doing. Once I started pulling him back by himself, then he got on that better trajectory and wasn't below growth anymore. By the end of the year, he was above growth. But that's like, what you have to do is kind of figure out, what do I have to change? Something's not working. Yeah. And
Stacy Hurst:when we're talking about implementing this model, I think that we have a lot of room for improvement when we're talking about how to analyze data. And just about assessment in general, because like you said, Lindsay, if we're not looking at it, and we don't know how to look at it, and how to interpret it, it could end up frustrating us, if we know those things, we make better informed decisions that will end up helping our students I know when we were doing dibbles. And we were just trying a lot of things. But at one point, we were progress monitoring those kiddos every week. And that's good, because you have a lot of data points, and it's one minute, so it's not like you know, who's gonna up and everything. But from week to week, I'd have teachers who were calling their therapist, because it oh, they went down this week by two words per minute or, but really, we had to say, Oh, we're just gathering data, we want to look at the overall trajectory, not that we you're not on that week to week roller coaster, there are a lot of things we could learn more about, I know, I still have a lot to
Lindsay Kemeny:learn with that. And I think it can be easy to kind of tie maybe how we feel about ourselves with how our students are doing. And it's so hard. But we've really got to separate that as a teacher and really just look at it objectively. And it's just not happening for this student.
Donell Pons:I got it now, Lindsey, thank you for coming back to me because it was a thought about the student. Again, it's about understanding the student. And you you explain what you did in a classroom with your student, which is textbook I love the explanation a game, that's a textbook explanation, that you understood the needs of that student. So that is the other piece of RTI MTSS, is we really are looking at the individual needs of the student. So that does mean that when there's a student who needs something different, we're going to look at it, we're going to examine that. And remember that equal is not always fair. So the students always say, you know, well, is that fair? If so and so gets this much time. But right now, for that student, that's what's needed. It's not always equal. And I think that's, you know, I had a good teacher one time explain if I had a student pass out at the front of my class, and I have to go to that student to make sure they're okay. And everybody else is going to have to wait and that's not fair. You know, it's not equal. But what's fair right now for the student is I'm up there and helping that student that's what that student needs. And so oftentimes, we have to look at it that way is that somebody is going to have different needs at different times. And maybe for reading. This particular student is going to need more help right here but maybe we enter enter art class and that student is rocking right and everybody else is going to be neat. maybe a little support in order to be able to do what that student is able to do. And maybe we step into science class. And now the student who wasn't so great in art class is doing really well. So again, this will move around throughout the day, throughout the year as the student grows, it can change and develop that way, understanding the needs of our students.
Stacy Hurst:So related to that, and what Lindsey just said to, I know as as teachers, our hearts are in what we do, and it's not an easy thing to not take that data personally, for whatever reason. So Lindsay, you're the one currently in the seat where you are seeing data, you're, you're doing the thing in a second grade classroom? How would you advise teachers to do that, to look at the data a little bit more objectively, what works for you? Oh,
Lindsay Kemeny:that is hard, because it's kind of a mind shift. You know, I feel like you've just, you've got to really try to separate yourself and just say, you know, it's like that one little boy, I was teaching him and he was below progress. He was making below average progress. And I just had to say, Okay, what I'm doing, it's not working for him, it's working for other students, it's not working for him. So I'm going to change something. So that works for him, it's hard. You've just got to try to separate it somehow.
Stacy Hurst:I think partly, the reason I asked you is because of my experience as a literacy coach. And I always had to be very aware, when I was having data conversations with teachers. It's not just numbers, right? These represent kids, and that represents somebody's life's work. It's in their mind and evaluation of them and their teaching. So I asked that because I think that it would be really fantastic if we could find a way. Because in my mind, just so those teachers know, I was never looking at that data and saying, that teacher is a terrible teacher, what is she even doing here? I really was looking at it with that investigative like, Okay, this group of kids, what do they need? Right? And but I think oftentimes, the teachers, no matter what I said, or did they thought I was judging them as a professional. And I think even if you didn't have a person in the room talking about the numbers, if they just look at the data, they might think they were being judged by that,
Donell Pons:you know, Stacy, I don't think there's anything any one of us can say that's going to alleviate this for everybody. It might hit right with somebody, but there'll be somebody else who says, Yeah, but it still really hurts, you know, I look at that data. And I don't feel very good about it, or it makes me feel this way. I don't want anybody else seeing the data, or I know what my peers are thinking. And I think that's just part of who we are right. And especially as educators, none of us got into this not to do a fantastic job. I mean, we know that we're involved in people's lives. That's what we love about it. And we know that we have the potential to really help people live better lives. And we'd love thinking about our students where they'll be in the next five to 10 years, I love looking down the road for my students, and even hearing from them years later, there's nothing better than hearing them be successful. So that does hurt. Because in that moment, you're feeling like all of that has come to a stop, right? I'm not doing it. But what's so great to remember as educators is that we do have what you need. That's the other piece to this, maybe 1520 years ago, it was hard to find this information. But the great thing is today, I'm gonna find what I need there somewhere. Somebody's got it, particularly in reading, we have so many more advances and things available to teachers. So that's the good news. I
Lindsay Kemeny:think there's a lot of information out there. And there's supports out there. So yeah, this has been great conversation. And I hope this has given everyone listening, just a few ideas and maybe things to think about as we're implementing these different frameworks in the classroom. So thanks, you guys.
Stacy Hurst:And I hope those of you listening and really listen to what Danielle said at the end, even though she didn't provide us with a bumper sticker solution about how to not take that data. Like personally, please know that we're here to support you. So feel free to reach out and we don't have all the answers. Unfortunately, we know people who do and we know, we know some resources. So I hope that whatever setting you're in that you're feeling supported with the type of training that you're receiving as a teacher, and the type of instruction you're able to deliver the instructional materials, right, those need to be very useful for you as well. So thanks for this conversation today. I think the very unifying thing is that we all have our students in our minds and our hearts. Okay, well thank you all for joining us. We will see you next time on literacy talks.
Narrator:Thanks for joining us today for literacy talks, the podcast series for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Literacy talks comes to you from Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Join us next time