{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":1.52,"endTime":6.0,"body":"Hello and welcome to Loving Your Garden, Better Gardening Podcast. I'm Rod Whiting and with me"},{"startTime":6.3,"endTime":9.2,"body":"is our resident horticulturist John Stirland. Hello John."},{"startTime":12.52,"endTime":18.2,"body":"And a special welcome to our guest - horticulturist and educator Alison Marsden. Hello Alison,"},{"startTime":18.36,"endTime":21.66,"body":"lovely to see you. Thank you very much, hello everybody. Delighted to be here."},{"startTime":22.48,"endTime":24.06,"body":"Tell us a little bit about yourself then."},{"startTime":28.22,"endTime":32.68,"body":"Oh well my background is slightly weird really. I started out many years working in IT. I was a gardener at home all the way through and finally decided to make it my"},{"startTime":33.0,"endTime":38.38,"body":"profession - with RHS Level 3 training - and I love talking to people about gardening.  I now spend"},{"startTime":38.38,"endTime":43.84,"body":"a lot of time in France where I have a genuinely Mediterranean garden that's got its own joys and"},{"startTime":44.08,"endTime":48.08,"body":"challenges and so today's topic is really close to my heart."},{"startTime":50.72,"endTime":55.939,"body":"Well yes because given these heatwaves that we've been having and the climatologists agree that this is this is not"},{"startTime":55.96,"endTime":62.22,"body":"just a one-off. Many gardens are struggling each year now and maybe we need to start, particularly those"},{"startTime":62.22,"endTime":66.98,"body":"in the south, or southeast of the country, need to start thinking"},{"startTime":67.26,"endTime":74.98,"body":"about what we're growing and what we can now grow given this changing climate.  I did think when"},{"startTime":74.98,"endTime":80.179,"body":"I went to Portugal recently on holiday and looked at the beautiful gardens out there, I thought well"},{"startTime":80.2,"endTime":85.8,"body":"There is so much to go at here. But of course, it's not that simple, is it?"},{"startTime":85.9,"endTime":86.54,"body":"It isn't."},{"startTime":86.8,"endTime":90.72,"body":"You've seen the best of both, Alison. Just talk us through the basics here."},{"startTime":90.92,"endTime":99.8,"body":"I think what's true is it isn't that simple. And a genuinely Mediterranean climate is different from what we are seeing."},{"startTime":100.18,"endTime":108.26,"body":"So 2025, I did look up the stats here. It was the warmest year on record since 1884, closely followed by 2022, 3 and 24."},{"startTime":108.36,"endTime":110.94,"body":"but we're still getting pretty much as much rain"},{"startTime":111.31,"endTime":112.9,"body":"but it's just coming at different times."},{"startTime":113.48,"endTime":115.62,"body":"So we're seeing, whereas in a Mediterranean climate"},{"startTime":115.78,"endTime":117.14,"body":"where I garden in Mediterranean France,"},{"startTime":117.5,"endTime":118.5,"body":"it's just dry the whole time."},{"startTime":119.02,"endTime":120.26,"body":"There isn't really a water shortage"},{"startTime":120.6,"endTime":121.38,"body":"because they have rain,"},{"startTime":121.79,"endTime":124.0,"body":"you know, they have rivers and rainfall in the mountains"},{"startTime":124.58,"endTime":126.46,"body":"but it doesn't, hardly rains at all."},{"startTime":126.82,"endTime":128.679,"body":"Whereas what I'm seeing even in the south"},{"startTime":129.179,"endTime":131.02,"body":"is we are getting longer, drier summers."},{"startTime":131.88,"endTime":134.06,"body":"They may be hotter but the winters,"},{"startTime":134.8,"endTime":137.02,"body":"we're seeing much more storms, heavy rain,"},{"startTime":137.26,"endTime":138.58,"body":"just as much rain as we did before."},{"startTime":138.94,"endTime":141.92,"body":"And that makes a big difference to how you garden and what you garden."},{"startTime":142.48,"endTime":144.48,"body":"So I think we are extending the range, you know."},{"startTime":144.7,"endTime":148.36,"body":"I mean, John, I'm sure will have a lot more information on what he's growing"},{"startTime":148.46,"endTime":149.88,"body":"and if that's changing than I do."},{"startTime":150.52,"endTime":154.06,"body":"But it isn't as simple as looking at Mediterranean plants"},{"startTime":154.48,"endTime":156.46,"body":"because, of course, we do still have frost as well."},{"startTime":156.98,"endTime":157.3,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":157.58,"endTime":160.14,"body":"And the other thing about a Mediterranean climate is that there is,"},{"startTime":160.38,"endTime":161.94,"body":"it may dip into single figures,"},{"startTime":162.24,"endTime":166.82,"body":"but you're not really talking about layers of frost and snow on top of wet ground."},{"startTime":167.32,"endTime":171.94,"body":"And that, I think, is the nub of the whole thing, where it becomes more tricky."},{"startTime":172.84,"endTime":177.3,"body":"Well, John, look, you've been, without being rude, you've been gardening for an awfully long time."},{"startTime":182.38,"endTime":185.8,"body":"You've seen a few seasons come and go, is the way I would describe it."},{"startTime":186.02,"endTime":190.32,"body":"Well,  I totally agree with climate change."},{"startTime":190.8,"endTime":194.1,"body":"And the thing is, with Britain, climate change is rapid."},{"startTime":194.62,"endTime":196.44,"body":"It's amazing how fast it is."},{"startTime":196.7,"endTime":201.68,"body":"I mean, we're an island  off Europe and things do change."},{"startTime":202.38,"endTime":209.76,"body":"But the gardens, the amazing thing is it's one country where you can plant all these plants and they grow."},{"startTime":210.3,"endTime":213.78,"body":"And the thing is about British gardeners, they're wonderful."},{"startTime":213.91,"endTime":215.7,"body":"They look after the plants so well."},{"startTime":216.1,"endTime":219.6,"body":"So no matter what happens, they are going to look after them."},{"startTime":219.98,"endTime":220.98,"body":"I love it, Rod."},{"startTime":221.04,"endTime":221.84,"body":"You're absolutely right."},{"startTime":221.88,"endTime":226.34,"body":"There are so many wonderful gardeners in the UK, as we know that from our own group."},{"startTime":226.76,"endTime":229.08,"body":"But I do get a sense of frustration."},{"startTime":229.54,"endTime":235.34,"body":"And one wonders what we can be doing to adapt our gardens to these new conditions, Alison."},{"startTime":235.7,"endTime":240.62,"body":"I would say the key message for me is really what one of the talks that I created, actually, probably 2022,"},{"startTime":241.22,"endTime":246.44,"body":"when this release I did, you know, becoming apparent, is planting for drier summers, but not necessarily drier winters."},{"startTime":246.8,"endTime":251.04,"body":"and it isn't about necessarily moving over to these drought tolerant plants."},{"startTime":251.42,"endTime":253.42,"body":"We've talked about rainfall in winter already,"},{"startTime":253.94,"endTime":255.32,"body":"but it is about understanding the soil."},{"startTime":255.75,"endTime":257.7,"body":"And I think if you have a free draining soil,"},{"startTime":258.12,"endTime":260.68,"body":"if you're on summer with chalk or sand,"},{"startTime":260.98,"endTime":262.76,"body":"then even in the winter, it might rain a lot,"},{"startTime":262.83,"endTime":264.54,"body":"but it will drain through quite quickly."},{"startTime":265.24,"endTime":266.88,"body":"Whereas a lot of parts of the country,"},{"startTime":267.31,"endTime":270.34,"body":"and I'm one down here in Kent, is on clay."},{"startTime":270.84,"endTime":273.66,"body":"And clay, as any gardener who gets on clay knows,"},{"startTime":273.88,"endTime":275.24,"body":"is not dry all the time."},{"startTime":275.3,"endTime":280.36,"body":"It might be rock hard in summer, but it's wet and slimy and it holds the water in winter."},{"startTime":280.96,"endTime":283.02,"body":"So I'm saying understand your soil."},{"startTime":283.34,"endTime":287.88,"body":"And I think one of the things we can do is try and make our plants as resilient as possible"},{"startTime":288.46,"endTime":292.76,"body":"to whether that's a bit more water or a bit more heat or a bit less water."},{"startTime":293.36,"endTime":299.62,"body":"So the good old well-rotted organic matter in the soil will help loosen the clay"},{"startTime":300.12,"endTime":303.82,"body":"so that it's less solid in the summer and it allows drainage in the winter."},{"startTime":304.38,"endTime":308.88,"body":"but also if you if you add organic matter and i'm sure all many of your guests have said this many"},{"startTime":309.06,"endTime":315.56,"body":"many times to a chalky or a sandy soil then it will hold more water so actually even though it's dry"},{"startTime":316.36,"endTime":322.22,"body":"if you are able to water or waters through the spring or when it does rain you know that soil"},{"startTime":322.22,"endTime":328.46,"body":"will hold a bit more water so improving the soil texture and structure sort of irrespective of what"},{"startTime":328.46,"endTime":334.5,"body":"what random stuff happens in the weather will help maintain a wider range of plants we're not having"},{"startTime":334.56,"endTime":341.02,"body":"to move quite so quickly to ditching all the old favorites and moving to sort of drought tolerant"},{"startTime":341.18,"endTime":346.3,"body":"planting you know as john said people look after a hugely wide range of plants in our temperate"},{"startTime":346.46,"endTime":350.18,"body":"climate and i think soil is a thing that can really help"},{"startTime":352.96,"endTime":359.8,"body":"Soil is the foundation of it - I totallyagree Alison get as much organic material in as possible. So what do you use for soil conditioning?"},{"startTime":360.44,"endTime":365.52,"body":"Anything that once was a plant so typically obviously people are making garden compost"},{"startTime":366.28,"endTime":371.94,"body":"and so garden compost is great and that also adds nutrients as well leaf mould from deciduous trees"},{"startTime":372.26,"endTime":376.74,"body":"you know and shrubs collecting the leaves if you have a few then they sit on the flower beds and go"},{"startTime":376.78,"endTime":380.96,"body":"into the compost if you have loads you need to break them off the lawn and then you can rot them"},{"startTime":380.9,"endTime":385.46,"body":"down into leaf mold that's a great soil conditioner but it doesn't have the sort of same nutrient"},{"startTime":386.2,"endTime":392.42,"body":"value um or depending whatever you can get locally farmyard manure that's rotted down and and either"},{"startTime":392.64,"endTime":397.94,"body":"shredded and bagged and bought or you know if you're in a rural area and and can collect it"},{"startTime":397.94,"endTime":404.64,"body":"and stack it you know farmyard manure stable manure spent mushroom compost has a high or it's basically"},{"startTime":404.82,"endTime":409.12,"body":"organic matter but then it's it's got an alkaline content so you know that depends a little bit what"},{"startTime":409.08,"endTime":413.38,"body":"you're trying to grow and what soil you're already sitting on but you know any of those things."},{"startTime":414.16,"endTime":420.82,"body":"The material out of biodigesters that are creating electricity that's brilliant stuff as well my"},{"startTime":421.22,"endTime":430.86,"body":"soil's acid acid sand and i am bringing in loads of conifer leaf mold which is acid and the road is"},{"startTime":431.28,"endTime":437.34,"body":"absolutely well all the acid loving plants yeah and that's again as alison says get to know your"},{"startTime":437.3,"endTime":444.02,"body":"soil, just a simple thing whether it's acid or alkaline or neutral and then you can work on it"},{"startTime":444.18,"endTime":449.82,"body":"that way if you know if it gets too limey you can I mean too acid you can put a bit of lime on"},{"startTime":449.92,"endTime":457.64,"body":"or whatever but use it to suit your plans. I've given so much advice at garden centres Rod where"},{"startTime":457.84,"endTime":464.72,"body":"people have come in bought a 50 pound rhododendron and you just ask them excuse me could you just"},{"startTime":464.72,"endTime":469.8,"body":"tell me what your soil is i have no idea mate it's lovely but i'll stick it in see if it grows"},{"startTime":470.4,"endTime":477.42,"body":"that's 50 pound i know yeah soil you know so that's to me it's one of the most important thing's knowing your soil."},{"startTime":477.8,"endTime":482.98,"body":"okay, so soil is important, how else can we make our gardens resilient allison"},{"startTime":484.06,"endTime":490.08,"body":"i think obviously water storage it to an extent uh water butts even even a water butt attached to a"},{"startTime":490.38,"endTime":494.099,"body":"a small shed or a small greenhouse will will collect quite a surprising amount of water"},{"startTime":494.36,"endTime":500.94,"body":"And I think if we're getting dry periods and then heavy rain, you know, storm rain, then actually you can fill water butts quite quickly."},{"startTime":501.21,"endTime":504.02,"body":"But obviously storing water and being able to reuse it."},{"startTime":504.15,"endTime":507.54,"body":"But also, sure, changing the planting, you know, looking."},{"startTime":508.05,"endTime":512.34,"body":"We will have the ability to sort of grow more Mediterranean-ish plants."},{"startTime":512.909,"endTime":520.099,"body":"I mean, many of the things that I grow in my Mediterranean garden in France are, you know, they'll take the things that we'll grow here."},{"startTime":520.159,"endTime":526.2,"body":"you know, Cianothus and Cistus and roses even, which were in the garden when we turned up,"},{"startTime":526.72,"endTime":531.5,"body":"alongside the more exotic stuff like bougainvillea, which covers a side of a house there,"},{"startTime":531.94,"endTime":537.46,"body":"but lurks unhappily in a pot in a conservatory in the UK, just because of the, you know,"},{"startTime":537.48,"endTime":542.32,"body":"that risk of frost or that danger of frost. So many things will be hardy, but you just need to"},{"startTime":542.34,"endTime":547.239,"body":"look at keeping them drier in the winter. I think people also need to think about the flowering"},{"startTime":547.26,"endTime":553.98,"body":"seasons so if plants are drier under more stress they're likely to flower earlier so you're you"},{"startTime":553.98,"endTime":559.1,"body":"know your whole planting system of trying to keep flowers going right through the year"},{"startTime":559.7,"endTime":566.74,"body":"that might require a bit of adjustment as things flower shorter earlier and perhaps for a shorter"},{"startTime":566.94,"endTime":571.48,"body":"time not just physically shorter but for a shorter period you know i'm not being discouraged but i"},{"startTime":571.48,"endTime":576.56,"body":"think people do need to start thinking you know thinking about this and and evolving rather than wholesale change."},{"startTime":576.52,"endTime":583.04,"body":"yes absolutely i mean mulching i like to mulch plants as well let the worms i mean"},{"startTime":583.54,"endTime":590.2,"body":"i haven't got a tremendous amount of worms i'm on bunter sandstone um what is it 30 centimeters"},{"startTime":590.6,"endTime":598.28,"body":"down pure sand but i've been on clay rod i've been on all sorts of soil and this is a new challenge"},{"startTime":598.74,"endTime":602.44,"body":"i would also say on mulching i mean people we think about mulching with organic matter you know"},{"startTime":602.47,"endTime":606.48,"body":"which obviously keeps the moisture in but you can mulch particularly if you're looking if you're"},{"startTime":606.5,"endTime":611.38,"body":"in a drier spot or you're trying to create the thing that looks much more like a Mediterranean"},{"startTime":611.68,"endTime":616.0,"body":"garden and that's a whole other topic of how to create a UK garden that looks more Mediterranean"},{"startTime":616.58,"endTime":622.2,"body":"you can march with gravel and pebbles and certainly where I am there's no you know we nobody grows"},{"startTime":622.34,"endTime":626.64,"body":"grass for example nobody has lawns in the area that I garden in France and basically the default"},{"startTime":626.86,"endTime":632.3,"body":"covering is is chippings or pebbles not so much gravel but you know white or small chippings and"},{"startTime":632.32,"endTime":636.54,"body":"can use those to mulch they will also keep the moisture in the rain will rain or the water will"},{"startTime":636.68,"endTime":642.44,"body":"soak through and and even though it looks very dry they act as a mulch from the water point of view"},{"startTime":642.76,"endTime":645.58,"body":"obviously not they don't do anything for the soil texture."},{"startTime":647.86,"endTime":652.18,"body":"you mentioned lawns there allison and i think lawns is is something that people will immediately identify with as being one of the"},{"startTime":653.2,"endTime":659.44,"body":"victims of this this new climate of ours it's i mean i'm looking out as i'm speaking to you i'm"},{"startTime":659.28,"endTime":663.9,"body":"I'm looking out of my summer house at this brown patch that used to be a lawn."},{"startTime":663.99,"endTime":666.72,"body":"I mean, there's no point in fighting it."},{"startTime":666.88,"endTime":671.34,"body":"It's, you know, I've got other priorities trying to keep other plants alive."},{"startTime":671.96,"endTime":674.8,"body":"But at least the grass will recover once we get the rain."},{"startTime":675.32,"endTime":681.42,"body":"But it does make you think about do we need all of this lawn or do we start thinking about paving?"},{"startTime":681.63,"endTime":684.9,"body":"Do we start thinking about gravelling or other ideas?"},{"startTime":685.44,"endTime":689.98,"body":"It's absolutely true, let's say, that grass, the sort of lawn grass that we have,"},{"startTime":690.57,"endTime":693.86,"body":"I know it's loads of different varieties and species, but what we call lawn grass in the UK."},{"startTime":694.4,"endTime":698.04,"body":"Yeah, in the south and the southwest, it's been struggling for a long time."},{"startTime":698.29,"endTime":702.72,"body":"I know that theoretically it grows back every year, but I do fear that sometimes if it's been dead from,"},{"startTime":702.94,"endTime":708.02,"body":"if the top growth has been dead from sort of June to September the whole year,"},{"startTime":708.17,"endTime":712.08,"body":"and then that happens next year and next year and next year, you know, I guess it'll be weakened."},{"startTime":712.4,"endTime":714.38,"body":"I do wonder whether eventually it's just going to go,"},{"startTime":714.42,"endTime":716.26,"body":"do you know what, I'm just not going to do this anymore."},{"startTime":716.46,"endTime":717.84,"body":"I think there's a couple of things you can do."},{"startTime":717.9,"endTime":718.9,"body":"One is not mowing."},{"startTime":720.04,"endTime":722.06,"body":"If you need to mow, leave a bit longer."},{"startTime":722.92,"endTime":724.92,"body":"Everybody pretty much knows that grass is a little bit longer."},{"startTime":726.22,"endTime":727.0,"body":"It's more resilient."},{"startTime":727.2,"endTime":729.46,"body":"It doesn't lose so much moisture through the air"},{"startTime":729.68,"endTime":731.02,"body":"because there's less air movement"},{"startTime":731.459,"endTime":734.18,"body":"and it's got obviously more ability to photosynthesize."},{"startTime":734.62,"endTime":736.98,"body":"You could leave it grow to a meadow"},{"startTime":737.54,"endTime":740.38,"body":"and actually sort of embrace the dry grass thing"},{"startTime":740.74,"endTime":741.9,"body":"and not just no mow may,"},{"startTime":742.28,"endTime":745.38,"body":"But then once you've got insects in it, you need to leave it through the summer"},{"startTime":745.49,"endTime":748.04,"body":"so those insects can sort of complete their life cycles."},{"startTime":748.66,"endTime":751.7,"body":"So you could leave more of the garden, not the whole lawn perhaps,"},{"startTime":752.0,"endTime":757.0,"body":"but leave areas longer and that will help the grass and it will look less dead."},{"startTime":757.86,"endTime":761.74,"body":"It will look more like a summer meadow, if you like, even if it is a bit dry and crispy."},{"startTime":762.16,"endTime":764.92,"body":"It'll look better than short grass that's dead on the ground."},{"startTime":765.39,"endTime":767.68,"body":"So I think there's that and then you cut it in September or whatever"},{"startTime":767.9,"endTime":769.14,"body":"and then cut it through the winter."},{"startTime":769.58,"endTime":772.14,"body":"I think the difficulty of saying if not grass at all,"},{"startTime":772.47,"endTime":775.74,"body":"I would certainly say if I was advising somebody with a small garden"},{"startTime":775.96,"endTime":778.2,"body":"or moving into a small garden and they want to make changes,"},{"startTime":778.6,"endTime":780.92,"body":"yeah, think seriously about if you've got a really small patch,"},{"startTime":781.16,"endTime":785.76,"body":"particularly out the front, is it actually worth having lawn now?"},{"startTime":786.12,"endTime":787.98,"body":"I know that would have been the default in the past."},{"startTime":788.38,"endTime":791.02,"body":"You could look at things like clover, which seems to be much more resilient"},{"startTime":791.54,"endTime":796.62,"body":"and can be walked on time again, sort of non-grass flat green plants,"},{"startTime":797.1,"endTime":797.96,"body":"that sort of lawn."},{"startTime":798.36,"endTime":800.88,"body":"What is quite difficult is if you've got a larger area,"},{"startTime":801.54,"endTime":802.84,"body":"if it's not a tiny little square,"},{"startTime":803.4,"endTime":806.12,"body":"if it's five metres by five metres of an area"},{"startTime":806.25,"endTime":808.72,"body":"and you want to sit on it or children want to play on it,"},{"startTime":809.06,"endTime":810.9,"body":"gravel and tippings are not really the answer."},{"startTime":812.16,"endTime":815.28,"body":"A non-permeable, you don't want to pave it with non-permeable stuff"},{"startTime":815.64,"endTime":817.54,"body":"because then when it does rain, you just lose it all."},{"startTime":817.9,"endTime":822.22,"body":"So that, I think, is one that I can't give people an answer to it,"},{"startTime":822.46,"endTime":825.58,"body":"except if it's a small area, I'd move away from grass."},{"startTime":825.68,"endTime":827.26,"body":"If it's bigger, I don't know."},{"startTime":827.48,"endTime":828.52,"body":"What have you got, John?"},{"startTime":828.66,"endTime":830.28,"body":"I totally agree with you, Alison."},{"startTime":830.51,"endTime":833.46,"body":"If it's a bigger area, I like to see quite a big lawn."},{"startTime":834.48,"endTime":838.3,"body":"A lawn is also a living plant, so it's quite cool."},{"startTime":840.18,"endTime":842.88,"body":"All living plants keep themselves cool."},{"startTime":843.09,"endTime":844.2,"body":"I like to see a lawn."},{"startTime":844.6,"endTime":846.88,"body":"I mean, it's a personal thing."},{"startTime":847.18,"endTime":850.32,"body":"Mine is now, well, the front one is totally brown,"},{"startTime":850.84,"endTime":852.24,"body":"but I know it'll come back."},{"startTime":852.37,"endTime":853.46,"body":"I am a lawn fan."},{"startTime":853.84,"endTime":861.1,"body":"But I've got to say, I've got a small, what I call a room in this garden that's got gravel on it."},{"startTime":861.5,"endTime":870.56,"body":"And it looks fabulous. It looks Mediterranean, but it's like a little room where we've got a small table, a couple of chairs, and we like to sit with a cup of tea."},{"startTime":870.96,"endTime":879.28,"body":"I suppose if you're using the vertical, you can create canopies, you know, with the right sort of plants or small ornamental trees."},{"startTime":879.68,"endTime":883.76,"body":"then you can get away with a certain amount of lawn at this time of year."},{"startTime":884.02,"endTime":884.8,"body":"It's interesting."},{"startTime":884.94,"endTime":889.9,"body":"I mean, these are the sort of ideas that I like to hear people like you throw around"},{"startTime":890.05,"endTime":890.84,"body":"because it is a challenge."},{"startTime":891.08,"endTime":894.04,"body":"I think the other thing is to focus on permanent planting."},{"startTime":894.96,"endTime":895.96,"body":"John had already mentioned trees."},{"startTime":896.24,"endTime":898.92,"body":"You know, trees draw huge amounts of water up because the roots are very deep."},{"startTime":899.48,"endTime":902.92,"body":"Shrubs, you know, roses typically have very, they need a lot of water to thrive,"},{"startTime":903.13,"endTime":904.3,"body":"but then they have very deep roots."},{"startTime":904.77,"endTime":908.0,"body":"I think so as well as, you know, wondering about, you know, do I want a lawn?"},{"startTime":908.36,"endTime":916.18,"body":"I would say, firstly, you know, stuff in pots is in the summer, you know, it used to be fine because you could just water it and leave it and water it."},{"startTime":916.38,"endTime":919.82,"body":"Now, anything in a pot is going to dry out in no time at all."},{"startTime":920.3,"endTime":927.92,"body":"So I would say stuff in pots is going to be at risk much more unless you can water it all the time, but also things that are sort of temporary planted."},{"startTime":928.19,"endTime":934.78,"body":"And the less you dig, then, you know, digging and loosening the soil obviously then lets more water out and evaporate and it gets drier."},{"startTime":935.16,"endTime":937.56,"body":"You lose a bit of soil structure, you know."},{"startTime":937.66,"endTime":940.68,"body":"So I think less, I'm not going to say to people,"},{"startTime":941.32,"endTime":944.34,"body":"don't have a fantastic pot of Pelagonians by your front door."},{"startTime":944.45,"endTime":946.6,"body":"You know, it brings joy to life, doesn't it?"},{"startTime":947.04,"endTime":950.26,"body":"But, you know, that's another question is around watering pots"},{"startTime":950.33,"endTime":953.72,"body":"and also planting, you know, planting in the autumn."},{"startTime":954.09,"endTime":956.2,"body":"I mean, for years now, we've been saying plant in the south."},{"startTime":956.62,"endTime":959.32,"body":"In the south, you plant in the autumn, whereas in the north,"},{"startTime":959.43,"endTime":961.76,"body":"perhaps it's been too cold and wet through the winter for that."},{"startTime":962.22,"endTime":965.519,"body":"I would say probably more of the country would now be planting"},{"startTime":965.54,"endTime":971.72,"body":"in the autumn in order to let those because plants will as long as it's not zero the roots will"},{"startTime":971.92,"endTime":973.72,"body":"establish even if it's a cooler temperature."},{"startTime":976.52,"endTime":982.16,"body":"yeah that's true i mean we are in the midlands john and i and i can't remember the last time we had a frost before december - certainly"},{"startTime":982.3,"endTime":987.6,"body":"not a heavy frost  so  autumn is a real goer now isn't it for planting."},{"startTime":988.63,"endTime":992.599,"body":"absolutely yeah because you're looking at a much longer period where it's quite likely to rain"},{"startTime":992.62,"endTime":1008.06,"body":"yeah yeah i don't like this agreeing with everybody on the show - we've just decided to put more shrubs some more deep-rooted plants in the"},{"startTime":1008.23,"endTime":1014.64,"body":"garden particularly in this garden because um yeah we think they'll they'll thrive a lot better than"},{"startTime":1014.7,"endTime":1023.44,"body":"other things so herbaceous as well but yeah so I totally agree and I also agree with autumn"},{"startTime":1023.72,"endTime":1031.62,"body":"sowing the autumn planting the um the soil's nice and warm plants get the roots out deep before"},{"startTime":1032.22,"endTime":1035.339,"body":"the winter what winters we get now what come"},{"startTime":1038.079,"endTime":1041.879,"body":"yeah absolutely  a few years ago people were saying oh drought tolerant"},{"startTime":1041.9,"endTime":1045.839,"body":"planting will replace everything - no don't - understand your soil do  all the things we've"},{"startTime":1045.959,"endTime":1057.14,"body":"talked about, evolve it as if you're replanting then think about it but also look at  evolving - you know i love mediterranean  i've spent ages trying"},{"startTime":1057.14,"endTime":1062.72,"body":"to make mediterranean looking gardens in Kent you know taking account of it did rain and it was"},{"startTime":1062.92,"endTime":1067.999,"body":"frosty sometimes you know getting that look so if that's a little bit easier in that in future"},{"startTime":1068.02,"endTime":1072.62,"body":"let's talk about those plants - give us a few plants that we can we can look at"},{"startTime":1072.86,"endTime":1079.08,"body":"with that in mind yeah i think if you're talking about stuff to plant now to make to give it you"},{"startTime":1079.2,"endTime":1083.22,"body":"could give you that feel that will obviously last long you know if they're shrubs you know you could"},{"startTime":1083.32,"endTime":1089.48,"body":"it's not planting for now it's planting it works now and they'll be fine as as the climate advances"},{"startTime":1090.28,"endTime":1094.74,"body":"i think a lot of stuff that people plant already and again it's i'm all gonna i'm not gonna"},{"startTime":1094.74,"endTime":1100.46,"body":"necessarily I'll list a few plants because who can't but actually it's again about understanding"},{"startTime":1100.88,"endTime":1106.22,"body":"so looking at how plants are adapted to dry conditions and that's about the plant can't"},{"startTime":1106.22,"endTime":1111.26,"body":"get more apart from having deep roots it can't get more water from the roots but it can reduce the"},{"startTime":1111.38,"endTime":1116.18,"body":"amount of water it loses through the leaves so for me if people are looking at plants that will"},{"startTime":1116.89,"endTime":1122.879,"body":"withstand dry conditions it's about minimizing water loss through the soil but also through"},{"startTime":1122.9,"endTime":1129.96,"body":"the leaves so stuff like you know it's very small leaves uh small leathery leaves like lavender the"},{"startTime":1130.02,"endTime":1134.5,"body":"things that people would think of as mediterranean there's no you know there's no sort of originality"},{"startTime":1134.64,"endTime":1141.76,"body":"in this really lavender rosemary i've already mentioned cystus uh which has quite small leaves"},{"startTime":1141.77,"endTime":1146.06,"body":"and slightly crinkle and slightly hairy and all of these things are reducing water loss the sort"},{"startTime":1146.06,"endTime":1150.079,"body":"of strappy leaved things that you see where water might run down into the center of the plant"},{"startTime":1150.86,"endTime":1156.36,"body":"succulents um as long as they're hardy ish you know um you can take a bit of a risk and know"},{"startTime":1156.48,"endTime":1160.8,"body":"you might lose some things you know cianothus we call it california lilac don't we"},{"startTime":1161.5,"endTime":1166.02,"body":"clues in the name i guess it comes from california and again very small thin leaves"},{"startTime":1166.899,"endTime":1172.18,"body":"conifers you know john's mentioned conifers so a lot of those you know and like i say in my part"},{"startTime":1172.2,"endTime":1176.199,"body":"in the mediterranean you know there's you know there's pine trees right down on the coast and"},{"startTime":1176.22,"endTime":1179.46,"body":"And that's much, that's, you know, so looking at things,"},{"startTime":1179.54,"endTime":1181.74,"body":"your stuff that's got grey leaves because it's hairy"},{"startTime":1182.28,"endTime":1183.4,"body":"and that reduces water loss."},{"startTime":1184.58,"endTime":1186.4,"body":"You know, so I think if you want to have a look"},{"startTime":1186.84,"endTime":1189.42,"body":"as well as choosing plants that will take you through,"},{"startTime":1190.48,"endTime":1193.2,"body":"hopefully, as far as we can tell, you know, as things evolve,"},{"startTime":1193.96,"endTime":1198.46,"body":"then, yeah, strappy, small leaf, evergreen, much more evergreen."},{"startTime":1198.54,"endTime":1200.34,"body":"There's almost nothing deciduous."},{"startTime":1200.38,"endTime":1204.039,"body":"If I look at the trees and shrubs that grow around where we are in France"},{"startTime":1204.06,"endTime":1204.98,"body":"in that climate."},{"startTime":1205.22,"endTime":1206.3,"body":"Very little that's deciduous"},{"startTime":1206.54,"endTime":1207.5,"body":"apart from the big plane trees"},{"startTime":1207.74,"endTime":1208.16,"body":"that they plant,"},{"startTime":1208.82,"endTime":1209.06,"body":"you know,"},{"startTime":1209.12,"endTime":1209.66,"body":"that you sit under"},{"startTime":1209.73,"endTime":1210.44,"body":"with a cup of coffee"},{"startTime":1210.66,"endTime":1211.5,"body":"and a glass of wine"},{"startTime":1211.55,"endTime":1211.98,"body":"in the cafe."},{"startTime":1213.04,"endTime":1213.96,"body":"But very little else"},{"startTime":1214.22,"endTime":1214.88,"body":"is deciduous."},{"startTime":1215.56,"endTime":1216.64,"body":"But there are some exotic"},{"startTime":1217.34,"endTime":1217.98,"body":"shrubs and trees"},{"startTime":1218.14,"endTime":1219.0,"body":"that do quite well"},{"startTime":1219.1,"endTime":1220.04,"body":"if you get the right ones."},{"startTime":1220.24,"endTime":1220.78,"body":"I'm thinking of"},{"startTime":1220.84,"endTime":1221.28,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"startTime":1222.06,"endTime":1222.42,"body":"Trachycarpus,"},{"startTime":1223.44,"endTime":1223.8,"body":"Fortunii."},{"startTime":1224.62,"endTime":1225.16,"body":"Oh, the one, yeah,"},{"startTime":1225.26,"endTime":1225.98,"body":"because you can cut that."},{"startTime":1226.36,"endTime":1227.3,"body":"It's like Pawlonia."},{"startTime":1227.38,"endTime":1228.0,"body":"You can cut it down"},{"startTime":1228.01,"endTime":1229.4,"body":"and get enormous leaves."},{"startTime":1229.62,"endTime":1229.88,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1231.06,"endTime":1231.42,"body":"Tetrapanix,"},{"startTime":1232.4,"endTime":1233.6,"body":"the rice paper plant."},{"startTime":1236.96,"endTime":1240.2,"body":"I'll give you one plant - Actually, I checked it in Hillyer's book."},{"startTime":1240.48,"endTime":1244.64,"body":"It says it won't grow very well in Britain, unfortunately,"},{"startTime":1245.04,"endTime":1248.4,"body":"but it might do well in a sheltered place,"},{"startTime":1248.96,"endTime":1250.12,"body":"and that's pittosporum."},{"startTime":1250.7,"endTime":1253.42,"body":"You can't go anywhere now without pittosporums."},{"startTime":1254.82,"endTime":1257.78,"body":"In our time, when I was little,"},{"startTime":1258.08,"endTime":1259.9,"body":"you could not keep them through the winter."},{"startTime":1260.4,"endTime":1261.679,"body":"Same with Lavatera."},{"startTime":1262.02,"endTime":1264.44,"body":"lavatera died every winter."},{"startTime":1264.62,"endTime":1265.42,"body":"Yeah, tell me about it."},{"startTime":1266.44,"endTime":1269.28,"body":"And now they just get through like nobody."},{"startTime":1269.64,"endTime":1271.5,"body":"In fact, I've seen one flowering in winter."},{"startTime":1272.66,"endTime":1273.5,"body":"It's amazing."},{"startTime":1273.87,"endTime":1276.7,"body":"Yeah, I mean, there are things that do well in this."},{"startTime":1276.95,"endTime":1277.94,"body":"I mean, Crocosmia."},{"startTime":1278.22,"endTime":1280.64,"body":"My Crocosmia is looking fantastic out there at the moment."},{"startTime":1280.89,"endTime":1281.26,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1282.0,"endTime":1282.44,"body":"Kniphophia."},{"startTime":1283.7,"endTime":1285.42,"body":"Agapanthus is doing really well."},{"startTime":1285.49,"endTime":1285.7,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"startTime":1285.97,"endTime":1287.16,"body":"But, of course, yeah, I mean,"},{"startTime":1287.3,"endTime":1289.78,"body":"Agapanthus is just planted in the streets where, you know,"},{"startTime":1290.24,"endTime":1291.62,"body":"and also Strelitzia."},{"startTime":1291.94,"endTime":1295.68,"body":"they plant it in the streets as like you know you want something along the side of road you know in"},{"startTime":1295.68,"endTime":1299.58,"body":"the mediterranean that plants trillizia yeah it's just like quite i mean it's extraordinary what they"},{"startTime":1299.66,"endTime":1303.1,"body":"grow i mean it's not all native to the mediterranean like john was saying you know we grow"},{"startTime":1303.81,"endTime":1307.08,"body":"stuff from overseas here you know they grow a lot of stuff that's not native to"},{"startTime":1307.9,"endTime":1312.66,"body":"mediterranean countries a lot of south african plants californian plants but yeah we can i mean"},{"startTime":1312.8,"endTime":1317.0,"body":"but you know the uk's i think the point about the uk being a temperate climate is that you've always"},{"startTime":1317.01,"endTime":1320.019,"body":"been able to grow those things you know the victorians produce pineapples didn't they"},{"startTime":1320.34,"endTime":1324.78,"body":"but you just have to do it indoors so perhaps we're talking about less indoors now less under"},{"startTime":1324.84,"endTime":1330.12,"body":"glass yeah having more stuff out in the garden and being able to perhaps you know watch the"},{"startTime":1330.16,"endTime":1334.1,"body":"weather forecast and chuck a cloche or a fleece over something yeah because if you're talking"},{"startTime":1334.2,"endTime":1338.8,"body":"about taking off a couple of two or three degrees of frost that that might well begin to be sufficient"},{"startTime":1339.54,"endTime":1345.419,"body":"until we get a week of snow or whatever you know can i jump in with olives look at olives years ago"},{"startTime":1345.44,"endTime":1347.96,"body":"I never saw an olive in this country now."},{"startTime":1348.18,"endTime":1351.38,"body":"They're selling, I mean, you can buy one in a pot for £1,000."},{"startTime":1352.32,"endTime":1353.4,"body":"Yeah, but that's fashion."},{"startTime":1353.96,"endTime":1357.38,"body":"If you look at mountains in the south or parts of Greece,"},{"startTime":1357.54,"endTime":1359.54,"body":"it's very cold in the winter, well below freezing."},{"startTime":1359.94,"endTime":1361.22,"body":"Olives are very tough and hardy."},{"startTime":1361.4,"endTime":1363.02,"body":"They're very dry, very tough and hardy."},{"startTime":1363.44,"endTime":1365.58,"body":"The issue about olives is you don't get olives in this country"},{"startTime":1366.32,"endTime":1367.78,"body":"because the plant will survive."},{"startTime":1367.87,"endTime":1370.74,"body":"You might get tiny little creamy flowers in the spring,"},{"startTime":1371.15,"endTime":1371.94,"body":"but that's too late."},{"startTime":1372.58,"endTime":1378.0,"body":"They flower in February and the olives mature in end of October, November in the Mediterranean."},{"startTime":1378.64,"endTime":1385.6,"body":"And you need that whole long season of light levels, both higher light levels and the temperature and sunshine."},{"startTime":1386.4,"endTime":1388.28,"body":"So we can grow olives here."},{"startTime":1388.32,"endTime":1398.26,"body":"And I think that's fashion and people seeing them abroad and going, I want an olive on my patio in a pot so I can sit under it and drink pastis or limoncello or whatever your poison is."},{"startTime":1399.12,"endTime":1401.52,"body":"and remind yourself of fantastic places."},{"startTime":1402.38,"endTime":1402.48,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1402.88,"endTime":1405.24,"body":"So we will be able to grow more of those things,"},{"startTime":1405.96,"endTime":1410.58,"body":"but just being able to say, well, this is a sheltered spot"},{"startTime":1410.64,"endTime":1412.22,"body":"or it's not a sheltered spot in my garden."},{"startTime":1412.68,"endTime":1414.98,"body":"Know your garden, know your soil, all of that stuff."},{"startTime":1415.54,"endTime":1419.08,"body":"And perhaps start using a bit of fleece or a cloche"},{"startTime":1419.14,"endTime":1423.02,"body":"or covering stuff with straw and then having it planted more"},{"startTime":1423.28,"endTime":1424.88,"body":"rather than having to take stuff into a glasshouse."},{"startTime":1425.94,"endTime":1427.96,"body":"It's a voyage of discovery, isn't it?"},{"startTime":1428.26,"endTime":1433.92,"body":"It is. That's gardening, isn't it? Well, it's all about adapting. It's all about evolving."},{"startTime":1434.41,"endTime":1439.96,"body":"I think we're pretty much agreed on that, isn't it? We've got to open our eyes to the possibilities"},{"startTime":1441.28,"endTime":1445.52,"body":"and consider some of the plants we may not have previously considered."},{"startTime":1445.98,"endTime":1450.02,"body":"Gardening is all about learning. You know, every day is a school day, isn't it? You learn something new every day, gardening."},{"startTime":1450.44,"endTime":1454.0,"body":"And all we're doing is learning some new stuff. But for me, I would say to people, understand."},{"startTime":1454.68,"endTime":1458.98,"body":"one of the things that irritates me about a lot of gardening media, am I allowed to say this,"},{"startTime":1459.34,"endTime":1463.0,"body":"is that people say things like, oh, it's all trial and error, just, you know, you'll find out,"},{"startTime":1463.42,"endTime":1467.76,"body":"you know, give it a go, a bit like John's  and I'm there going,"},{"startTime":1468.0,"endTime":1473.8,"body":"no, no, you know, people have been gardening for, I don't know what, thousands of years,"},{"startTime":1474.06,"endTime":1478.16,"body":"hundreds of years in this country. Loads of people have learned loads of stuff and understood loads"},{"startTime":1478.2,"endTime":1482.6,"body":"of stuff. Do you know, there's clever people and scientists and botanists and horticulturists."},{"startTime":1482.8,"endTime":1486.02,"body":"You don't have to learn this stuff or make it up through trial and error."},{"startTime":1486.42,"endTime":1487.94,"body":"People have written this stuff down before."},{"startTime":1488.74,"endTime":1489.62,"body":"So understand."},{"startTime":1490.56,"endTime":1491.56,"body":"Understand the soil."},{"startTime":1491.92,"endTime":1492.68,"body":"Understand the plant."},{"startTime":1492.98,"endTime":1493.7,"body":"Read the label."},{"startTime":1494.16,"endTime":1497.08,"body":"Okay, that's a good point of which to wrap this up."},{"startTime":1497.76,"endTime":1499.48,"body":"Thank you both very much indeed."},{"startTime":1499.96,"endTime":1504.26,"body":"Alison, tell us how people can find out more about you and follow you"},{"startTime":1504.6,"endTime":1506.4,"body":"and perhaps employ your services."},{"startTime":1506.94,"endTime":1511.36,"body":"Oh, yeah, I have a website called gardeningbydesign.co.uk."},{"startTime":1511.88,"endTime":1512.74,"body":"It's like all one word."},{"startTime":1513.24,"endTime":1516.86,"body":"And there's a complete list of my talks on there and a lot more about me."},{"startTime":1517.26,"endTime":1520.22,"body":"I focus much more on the use of gardening to support well-being."},{"startTime":1520.62,"endTime":1523.84,"body":"But also I do some work in structured supportive programs."},{"startTime":1524.14,"endTime":1527.8,"body":"So enable people to benefit from gardening who wouldn't do so on their own."},{"startTime":1528.1,"endTime":1533.14,"body":"So working people with learning disability, mental health disability, people who are isolated."},{"startTime":1533.72,"endTime":1539.6,"body":"So if people are interested in that side of therapeutic horticulture, haven't heard about it before and think, oh, that could be interesting."},{"startTime":1540.18,"endTime":1541.64,"body":"or I might help somebody I know."},{"startTime":1542.24,"endTime":1543.32,"body":"There's lots of other resources,"},{"startTime":1543.82,"endTime":1545.42,"body":"but some of them I point to from my website"},{"startTime":1545.55,"endTime":1546.86,"body":"and a bit of an indication."},{"startTime":1547.84,"endTime":1550.4,"body":"Gardening Talks, love talking about gardening"},{"startTime":1550.47,"endTime":1551.2,"body":"and helping people."},{"startTime":1551.82,"endTime":1553.18,"body":"Thank you very much indeed, Alison."},{"startTime":1553.52,"endTime":1554.92,"body":"Thank you for your time."},{"startTime":1555.08,"endTime":1559.54,"body":"You can hear John's dulcet tones on my radio show,"},{"startTime":1559.73,"endTime":1561.5,"body":"Boom Radio, Sunday mornings, 9.30."},{"startTime":1561.88,"endTime":1564.74,"body":"And of course, our Facebook group, Loving Your Garden."},{"startTime":1565.08,"endTime":1565.84,"body":"Thank you for your time."},{"startTime":1566.24,"endTime":1567.0,"body":"Talk again soon."},{"startTime":1567.35,"endTime":1567.84,"body":"Happy gardening."},{"startTime":1568.28,"endTime":1568.84,"body":"Bye, folks."},{"startTime":1569.22,"endTime":1569.64,"body":"Thank you."}]}