The Families of Character Show
We serve parents who want more for their family. Our show offers research-based parenting solutions to the most common family problems, real-life parenting stories, and authentic support. The host, Jordan Langdon, is a wife, mother, and Licensed Clinical Social Worker who validates what parents go through and offers practical actionable steps parents can implement today to transform their families in joy and unity. Guests are experts in their field of work and provide high-value material for parents and families.
The Families of Character Show
Ep. #156: Beyond Boyhood - The Lost Art of Rites of Passage with Shaun Garrison
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Your son was never meant to wander into manhood – he was meant to be led there. In a culture where most boys grow up without clear markers for their transition to manhood, they're left asking one haunting question: "Do I have what it takes?" This uncertainty ripples through generations, leaving men anxious, directionless, and disconnected from their purpose.
Shaun Garrison, father of six and founder of Windswept Treks, shares his powerful journey of creating a year-long masculine initiation for his teenage son.
We discuss:
• Traditional cultures used intentional rites of passage to mark the transition from boy to man
• Boys often show readiness for initiation when they begin pushing against parental authority
• Rites of passage help boys develop confidence, purpose, and answer "Do I have what it takes?"
• Similar intentional one-on-one time is valuable for father-daughter relationships
Connect with Sean at windswept.co or email him at shaun@windswept.co to learn more about guided adventures and resources for intentional parenting.
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How will your son know when he's become a man? If you're raising a boy, stop and really think about that, because chances are he won't. You know, most boys today grow up without a clear moment where they step out of boyhood and into manhood. They age but don't arrive, and that's a problem, a big one. Without a rite of passage, boys are left to figure it out on their own, and that confusion leads to what we're seeing everywhere Men who are lost, anxious, emotionally fragile, unsure of their role and disconnected from purpose. But it wasn't always this way.
Speaker 1:For centuries, fathers and trusted men in communities used to lead boys through intentional experiences, rites of passage that marked the transition from boy to man, and these were really powerful defining moments. They taught him, they tested him, they challenged him and they showed him how to lead, love, protect, provide, to be both warrior and servant. And this is how boys used to become men. But in today's culture that's gone. We're seeing the fallout in every generation. So if you're a parent raising a son, you can't afford to skip this episode. It's time to rediscover what boys have always needed and what we must be intentional about as parents reclaiming. So today I have on our show Sean Garrison. He's in studio with me, so if you're listening, flip over to our YouTube channel so you can check us out. We're sitting side by side here and Sean is going to talk to us about this very issue rites of passage. So welcome back to the Family as a Character show.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, Jordan. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Yes, guys, Sean is, like I said, a return guest. He runs an organization called Windswept Treks and they offer guided outdoor excursions for the purpose of connecting parents with their kids, creating new memories, disconnecting from technology and being immersed in our beautiful natural world. And Sean is not only an avid outdoorsman, but he's also a husband and father to six, with his own experience of fathering sons. So we're going to dive right into this topic.
Speaker 2:Okay, yes.
Speaker 1:Sean, tell us why is this topic of rites of passage sort of important to you. Tell us, kind of, where we're developing these rites of passage and leading kids through. This came from for you.
Speaker 2:Yes, I would say it comes from the struggle.
Speaker 2:It comes from Socrates saying know thyself. And so really it's my own struggle with growing up and it's funny because you're talking about, like you know, here are all the problems that can happen, you know, with kids and, and to my right is an example of of a broken human being, of how, of how confused males can get. So I come from a broken family. I come from someone who has father wounds, who has who is not. I think my dad did get some things right and he did some great things and but I see how I struggled and how I was confused and how I didn't know myself. I didn't have any North Star, I didn't have any any clear sense of what life is, who I am, what's my purpose here. So, in the grand scheme of things and that does become severely problematic for us, if you know here we find ourselves on a stage and we're like what, what's the story, what's my, what's my part in this? And and so I guess, back in the early two thousands, I came across a book called wild at heart by John.
Speaker 1:Eldridge.
Speaker 2:And the subtitle is Discovering the Secret of a Man's Soul and Jordan. When I read that, it so resonated with me, it just gave me this sort of self-knowledge. I mean, he even speaks of how Eve was created in the garden, in a cultivated space, and Adam came from the wilderness. And in a cultivated space and Adam came from the wilderness. And so there is a sense where men were made for the wilderness, in a sense, and like our rugged characteristics are made for wildness. I mean there are elements that need to be, you know, tamed and directed and redirected, and all that.
Speaker 2:But part of what struck me about John Eldredge he says that there is an aspect of initiation that needs to happen that oftentimes doesn't happen exactly. You articulated that so well at the beginning and that he goes so far as to say that most men walking around in today's society are boys walking around in men's bodies, which is like, oh, okay. And then even the sense of you know the people who are like, who may not question, like, oh, I'm a man, I'm like, you know, I drive a big truck and whatever, like you know, you know what our society, what our culture, like the poisonous ideas of like this is what it means you know and to have you know, to use my strength to you know, be domineering over other people and be like that timeout that is, that's not the thing, right, exactly.
Speaker 2:So I had read that book when I was, you know, in my mid twenties and I'm like, oh my gosh, this gives me so much self-knowledge and just the sense of, oh I have. These are the my father wounds and struggles, my, you know, confused sense of self that has come from not having a clear path forward and then fast forward. I blinked and I'm like, wait, I have children and I have a son who's like preteen now and like, oh, what, what happened to those books? And, like you know that I had read 20 years ago, um, and so I started, uh, rereading. And the other thing, so, um, so Eldridge wrote, uh, wild at heart. And then he followed up with this book the way of the wild heart.
Speaker 2:It was re-released, uh, under the title fathered by God. And he goes through this, this brilliant, uh idea of, okay, if, if our culture lacks rites of passage, how do we create them? Because, like you're saying, we need something. He says, otherwise the boy will kind of wander through life and he'll always have that nagging question Do I have what it takes? Yes, and so, like this sort of really this insecurity yes that can be hiding behind.
Speaker 2:You know all sorts of puffed up, you know facades of like oh yeah, that guy's totally a man. Yeah, he obviously knows what it means and we can't assume that you know, we can't and so.
Speaker 2:So he lays out, uh, this, this path. For I guess, guess basically an example. He was like here's a year of masculine initiation that I did with my son so that it would take him from you're a boy now and I'm going to invest in you with other men, to the point where, at the end of this year, you will be able to confidently say I am.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that. I love that. An entire year of initiation from boyhood to manhood, like a series of rites of passages. It sounds like.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I guess the background is there's assumed that we're loving our children from day one, that we're investing in them, that we're, you know, establishing that we've established these relationships and that we have affection for our children and that they know that, that they are loved and respected, and all that, yeah. But really it came, uh, again fast forward. I'm like, oh, time's upon us and so my son, uh, is getting into his early teens, and I'm so. So I'm like, how do you, how do I do this? Like there's an idea, I like what Eldridge did, and then I looked up and there's some other resources that are just talking about. Like, yeah, definitely there are ways to be able to involve other men into this. And so, yeah, let's explain basically what I did with my son Between his 14th and 15th birthdays, that I set that as his, his year of initiation.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Um, so like. So that's again we're. We're loving our kids all the all the way up into this, but this is a year of particular investment, of particular intentionality to say, okay, we're. It's going to be like shared adventures and camping trips and and fishing and mountain biking and you know, and and eating fun snacks and going explore new places and and and having conversations about, about scripture and about life and about uh, I know I was bringing in these other men, um, to basically teach him a skill, so I'll, I'll go back to that, but so, basically, on the, the night of his 14th birthday, I had prefaced this before.
Speaker 2:I was like Andrew. There's this year of masculine initiation. I want to invite you into this. Are you willing to be part of it?
Speaker 1:I love it. The invitation. You asked him. You told him what it was and then you said I want to invite you into this. That's right, Would you join me on this journey?
Speaker 2:With obviously a lot of unknowns and question marks and like what all does this mean or entail, right, but I think maybe that's almost like a microcosm of the adventure of all of life. I mean, john Eldridge says to you like a man is never more of a man than when he walks into a battle that he's not sure of winning, of an adventure he's not sure of. You know, like he's unsure of, like into the. I mean it would be just falseness to be like and you can plan your entire life and control it, right, like an air conditioned. You know we can.
Speaker 1:You got it all figured out before you start. No, there's no adventure in that, or? Any challenge in that or reality.
Speaker 2:So so I invited him and he said yes, and and I kind of left it at that. And then the night of his birthday I said okay, andrew, it's time for you to go with me. So I was like okay, and so that we went to. I had a friend of mine's nearby and he had this big outdoor fire going and this I think there may be six or seven other guys, trusted Christian friends of mine who are part of this and he was like there and I kind of you can make it. You know you can adapt this to however you want to do this with your kids. You know your kids' personality.
Speaker 2:But I kind of made it a little bit formal. I crafted it. My father-in-law is a deacon also and so he came with like with a book of blessings and at the end like said a special blessing for him. But basically just the main thrust was you are now a boy. But basically just the main thrust was you are now a boy, but these friends of mine are going to walk and I are going to walk with you to bring you to this point where you are a man, you are in the company of men with us, and I think, yeah, that other sense. Maybe it was Eldridge who said you know, a woman can never bestow masculinity upon a man.
Speaker 1:And that's that might.
Speaker 2:I'm curious your thoughts of like. I mean, how confused does our culture get when, when the man's like I'm trying to prove myself by Right yeah, that's not possible.
Speaker 1:It's just not possible. That's why this community of men trusted men that are in your community and that that your son knows as well is vital. It's crucial to kind of mentor them along and to be on the journey with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm a woman. I don't know about this stuff, you know. I mean and it's sad for me, for single mothers who are trying to give their sons a rich experience, you know, If you're listening and that's you I would highly recommend you connect with some supportive Christian men that are in your son's circle and ask them to help you with this. What a beautiful gift for a man to be able to mentor another boy and to step in as a little bit of that father figure and just that trusted male companion.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That's a fantastic idea.
Speaker 1:So you kicked off the 14th birthday with a little bonfire with a group of guys that you know, some blessings over your son, and then you really I heard you use the words to him like you are a boy now, use the words to him like you are a boy now. But this journey is meant to bring you along the path to arrive at manhood, Like you are becoming a man, son, and like as a mom. I just love to hear that because I think when we speak directly to our kids in these ways, in these terms, it brings a whole new reality to them and and it kind of helps them to level up right, To rise up. Oh, somebody thinks I'm capable of this, Somebody invest, is investing in me and believes that I am, I'm made for more, that it's time for me to leave my boyish ways behind and take on this identity, this God-given purpose. Woo, so good.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I guess, just to qualify too, I think it may depend on the particular individual. You know the boy in terms of what age you do that at, but just for what it's worth for Andrew, it ended up being the perfect time for him. So it was like 14, he was in eighth grade and then, you know, 15, he's in high school. So it's that it's moving him from middle school to high school. I think he grew like six inches, like there was just a lot of for him, that just like I think he could, that just it was fitting for him yes, yeah, but just to know that there's flexibility there for.
Speaker 1:Sure, some of them may need this earlier. Maybe they are already looking like a man, right, they've matured earlier and they're bigger. They got facial hair, they're they're ready. They're ready for the next level, and so it may be at 12 or 13 that this, this happens for them, and certainly there's going to be some boys that maybe you know it's going to be 15 or 16. But I think the point is to encourage them along, to start somewhere, right? There's no perfect timeline, right?
Speaker 2:Right, right, right, yeah, exactly, and I think I mean this is such a, this is a novel idea for us in our culture.
Speaker 2:So, for I know some dads would be kind of like, oh, they found out about this and they're like, oh, I wish I would have done something like this, but now it's too late and I I think there's there's, there's no such thing as too late in the grand scheme of I have today, I have the present moment. God, you know my gifts and my limitations, yeah, and the other thing that I'll say, Jordan, is like I said, I had some ideas, but I really felt like the whole year I was kind of winging it. I'm like this is worth pursuing, but I don't claim to have super organized, yeah, but which also allowed space for God, the Father, to father me and provide for me in the midst of my poverty, in the midst of my lack of preparedness, or you know, or whatever. But I mean God, you know that's of us being spirit led people, you know that we leave space and we express our need, like our poverty, like God, you have to show up. I only got five loaves and two fish.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:And it's not enough.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:What I have is not enough, but you can make it more than enough.
Speaker 1:I love that because if you're listening and you're thinking, oh, I got to have this all planned out and prepared and ready to present the full plan you know, signed, sealed, delivered on the 14th birthday no, please listen to what Sean's saying. He's saying it's really important for us to leave room for the Holy Spirit to inspire us to maybe change our mind. Maybe we thought this was going to be a great idea, to do this one certain thing and the Holy Spirit goes. You know what? You know, your son has always mentioned guitar or something.
Speaker 1:This is a challenge, but this could be something that you know brings him great joy for the rest of his life. So what about challenging him to grow and and develop the skill of playing the guitar? Maybe that you thought it was going to be camping and rough, rugged stuff, but maybe God says, yeah, a little bit of that and a little bit of this, right.
Speaker 2:So, just giving yourself permission to not have it all figured out when you start absolutely well and yeah, just to build on that point, I guess, maybe to finish up. So the the opening ceremony. So it was his birthday. He had already received some other birthday gifts, but he got a few other gifts. That night, in front of the other men, it was like open this up. Oh, it's a sleeping bag. Okay, this is speaking of things to come in this year. Oh, I just opened a rock climbing harness. Okay. Oh, blaze orange hunting vest Okay. So now there's this sort of mystery and anticipation, like okay, what sort of adventures are in store?
Speaker 1:for this year. Oh, that is so awesome. I've heard of men giving their sons, maybe even after one of these adventures, kind of like a trophy, like a Gerber multi-tool or a knife, their first knife. But I like starting off the year with a few tools that they are going to need for these journeys Because, like you said, it creates that sense of anticipation. And, oh, he's given me three things that are three different kind of adventures. He really trusts that I'm going to be able to do this, like he's already invested in me and believes that I'm going to make it to the third challenge or whatever I imagine that is just such a beautiful message for a young boy to receive, especially from their father.
Speaker 2:Yes, and so kind of going on. So then the idea is like in that whole year, so yeah, it's capped by the opening ceremony and the closing ceremony, which for us was at the same exact place, also a bonfire at night with those guys. So on his birthday both times it's so I guess all the other guys, I asked them, I said hey, can you be present? Yeah, for opening and closing ceremony. And then I know everyone's busy, but can you just, let's say, even one afternoon somewhere during that whole year, can you take Andrew and teach him a skill?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And so so I was reading about this, you can Google a hundred things a man should know and some of those lists have you know different items on there, uh, from like basic things like here's how you tie a tie, here's how you cook an egg, here's how you change a tire, here's how you field dress a deer, like I mean, like all the way you know the gamut of things. And so I think, even since then, jordan, I've learned like, yes, even those practical learning, those practical skills, builds confidence in a man, yes, who's meant, if we're meant to protect, provide, serve and do all these things, it's helpful to know how to do those things.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So, and I mean for me, like coming into home ownership and like, oh my gosh, I do not know how to do a lot of these things, it becomes an aspect of frustration, like I don't, oh, like I don't, oh, man, I don't have what it takes.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:You know this. I thought I could fix this sprinkler. No, it's you know, and, and honestly, john Eldridge talks about his own frustration. He's just like like fixing a sprinkler or these other home, like, become a point of like oh, these are still my wounds? I don't. My dad never taught me how to do these things. I don't know so, and YouTube is not a sufficient fatherhood.
Speaker 2:Fatherly presence Like YouTube can teach you you know some plumbing and electricity and things you know. You know basic wiring, but that's, that's the. The skills are helpful but they're not the whole thing.
Speaker 1:It's not mentorship, it's not that one-to-one here. I'm going to show you, I'm going to have you do it and you know, with me here, and then you do it on your own.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, yes.
Speaker 1:That I do it, we do it, you do it kind of mentorship. I love it. Okay, so what kinds of things did these men show up to teach Andrew?
Speaker 2:Yes, and I'm just looking at you know these, this diverse group of guys and some you know some, some younger than me, some about my age, some a little bit older, and be like guys, I'm totally open to whatever you know. One of the guys was like I'm really good at finance. I'm like you could teach him how to you know, look, you know, deal with this, checking, you know, basic things like that. A friend of mine was like I want to meet Andrew at this cafe and I'm going to teach him how to pray with scripture, and I'm like that is awesome, thank you.
Speaker 2:And then some of the other like skills came from like a group of us guys would go on a 14er, like we'd go climb a mountain and do a camping trip once every summer, and so andrew came into that group and, um and so actually that was toward the end of the year and there was a a 14 000 foot mountain. That's, uh, not just a hike, it's more hand over hand climbing, like, like risk, like risk, like big fall potential, uh, so that. But that was part of his big challenge. Like I'm inviting you into this. There is real risk involved, wow, uh, and you know, and I'm bringing these other guys are with me in a company, and so that all became part of the shared experience. And lo and behold how the Lord provides we got a flat tire. Thank you, lord. Thank you so much. I've been meaning for Andrew to learn how to change a tire and here's you know out in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker 2:Everyone says you need to be really specific about what you pray for, Cause we ended up getting a second flat tire and we did not have another spare.
Speaker 1:So so it ended up getting a second flat tire, and we did not have another spare.
Speaker 2:So so it also involves, you know, another change of tire, like trying to patch, trying to slowly drive, to get it anyway. Um, but that was the other point that I wanted to mention is the sense of like. Adventure is, uh, I may have mentioned this, gk Chesterton, and adventure, by definition, is something that comes to us, not something that we choose. So, so if on that particular hike that was like okay and um, another, the, if you guys know the Patagonia clothing company, the guy who founded it, yvonne Chouinard, uh, he was saying in a documentary, saying in a documentary he's like I think adventure that word is overused he's like, to me, adventure is when things go wrong.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's so true, and those are the best learning moments. I can remember just taking my sons to Nebraska. And Parker was just learning to drive and he was 15 and he's driving the car and we get in the only patch of the journey where there's no cell reception there's no shoulders on the two-lane highway and all of a sudden he's driving along and I'm like, oh no.
Speaker 1:I said, is that the radio, the static on the radio or something he's like no, something bad's happened. He pulls over and and, like the I I don't know what you call this, but some metal pan on the bottom of the front of the car had like dropped down and was dragging on the ground and I'm sitting here going through all the worst case scenarios.
Speaker 1:Sean, I'm like some load of dudes is going to come by and, like you, know, assault me and tie up my children and we're going to be left for dead. And there's no cell reception, you know. And in the meantime my sons get out of the car and they're wandering the ditches looking for ways to fix this piece of metal that's hanging off the car because we don't have any clippers or any anything to cut this thing off so we could keep going. And they find a blown out tire and it's got the you know tread there's some tread that's kind of pulled off and the, the wiring that's in the rubber, and so they grabbed a piece of that, got under the car and tied that thing back up.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 1:With a piece of the tire and I thought this was the best trip ever, and I called my husband as soon as I got cell reception. I'm like you're not going to believe what happened. He's like oh no, it sounds terrible. What did you guys do? And then he was like that was awesome.
Speaker 2:That you could have never planned never.
Speaker 1:And then they got to the gas station and they had to ask for some pliers because that that little thing didn't work and it was gonna work wasn't gonna work for the long haul. So they're like we, we actually have to cut this whole thing off and just put it in the trunk because it's causing so many issues. And the lady was not nice about it and they were like geez, that was a rough conversation.
Speaker 2:And again I'm like yes, another adventure.
Speaker 1:So you can't plan these things. But this is what builds character right To have to have the courage and the confidence and to challenge yourself, to push yourself beyond the limits of what you believe you're capable of. And when we build up those reservoirs of courage and confidence, it spills out when we get older and we're faced with really difficult decisions relationships, you know pornography, you know should I skim off the top of my business? You know, like all these opportunities, that you could take shortcuts or do something that's tempting but definitely not right. That if we've built up this reservoir of of uh, you know courage and honesty and confidence and we know other people believe in us, then I think it's easier to say no to the really difficult things. You know when easier to say no to the really difficult things.
Speaker 2:you know when, when they are men. Yes, you're making me think, um, my uh, stepdad is a great handyman and I'm just like amazed at the things that he can build and fix and all that and some of the things that he said is just like it's.
Speaker 2:It's not that you you know, like at a young age he didn't just know how to do all these things. It's that you show up and you're like how do I find a creative solution based on what we have, which is exactly what your boys did, digging around in the ditch. I love that and imagine the sort of confidence and be like this is all we got. Yes, like MacGyver.
Speaker 1:We got to make do with what's right here in front of us. What a skill we got to make do with what's right here in front of us. What a skill.
Speaker 2:That's right, and I've heard other guys who are like really handy in terms of, like you know, home, home repair sort of thing, and like no, that is or so, home repair or like, if you live on a farm and be like that, you only got so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you, you become good at innovating and adapting and so and I think that's that's the sort of thing that you're saying that that builds confidence and like, and we're modeling that hopefully for our sons and then we're inviting them into live that and hopefully there's you know, there's even value when we collectively are in that space of the unknown, and then hopefully our kids will see us still be confident and hopeful that there's a solution, even though at this moment we don't see any solution.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's so important, like you said, to model that hope and that confidence that there is an answer. We might not have hit on it yet, but, son, we're going to get in here and we're going to figure this out together. Like what's the worst that can happen, we have to call for professional help. Okay, we'll give ourselves that permission to do that after we've tried all these things. But I think, um, from what I've seen as as just being a counselor, you know, kids really are watching us all the time. They are picking up on our vibes and if we're like, oh, that's the last thing I needed, you know, when we get a flat tire, you will hear them say the same sorts of things, you know.
Speaker 1:And so it's important for us to to just be working on developing our own character, too, and growing in virtue where we go. Okay, how are we going to handle this? Right, it's kind of that internal conversation and then you spit out like, all right, we got to figure this out. Right, with confidence. You just say this is just what's what we're dealing with right now and how are we going to move forward in order to get the outcome that we want?
Speaker 2:that's right, yes so I think there there is a balance. Like you know, when we're, if you're like doing high altitude mountaineering, there, there are very real dangers. You know that that could be life and death, and like like being prepared, but at the same time, like yeah, how do we? Yeah For you, for us, as parents like be creative, be open to going to like to take risks.
Speaker 2:I mean especially for our boys, need risks and the notion of like, like, get out, like in the four walls of our home where we can control the temperature and we feel safe and all that there's. That's kind of an illusion, so like. So there's, there's something helpful to be dropped in the middle of you know, high mountains and be like, wow, I'm actually really small and there are wildlife that are, you know, it's way bigger than me and there are, you know, you know storms that could come in and dump snow at this time of year any, any time of year.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, like lightning and all this, know so, um, yes, so I think that's a great. These adventures are a microcosm and foreshadowing of the adventure of life in general, which is this giant unknown. I think our kids, yeah, can, can have this illusion like, oh, you know, like you know it's hard being a kid and trying to figure all this stuff out, but you know but, but our parents, you know, they have it together and I think it's maybe good for us to be able to say like no, but we, we don't like. Like life keeps changing, there are different seasons. It's kind of like okay, now we're moving into another thing I don't know, right, I mean, mean, and there's like for people will sometimes say to me they're like oh you know, you have six kids.
Speaker 2:Like so you're a veteran, like you figured this out, and be like, let me stop you right there, like that is not how this works and I've shared with you before too. We, we have a younger set of kids that are just way different than the older ones, and we're we're having to relearn how to parent and be like uh, we, the other ones didn't have ADHD and these other challenges and like I don't, I don't know, and and I'm I'm struggling to like I'm not doing this very gracefully at times.
Speaker 1:Sure, but you're committed to figuring it out Right and to being intentional about next steps. Right or acknowledging, I don't know. This is brand new territory for me, but I'm willing to journey along with you and we can figure this out together. That's, that's the name of the game. It's not about perfect parenting. It's just about being willing to do better and to journey alongside your spouse and your kids and say we are in this, we are a team together. Together, we're going to figure this out. You have my support, you have my encouragement, and please give me some mercy when I trip and fall, because even though I'm I'm the taller one, the older one, like this is a lifelong thing, is we're? We're going to fail at stuff, but we got to keep trying Big time, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, I like it when I fall, exactly Not if, when this is going to happen.
Speaker 1:When I repeatedly yes.
Speaker 2:And well, I mean and like, because we're talking about forming kids in general. I've realized that part of I think we said this Pope John Paul the second described the family as a school of love, of learning love and like and especially, you know, implicit in that you're going to have to share, you're going to have to like the whole the whole world's not about you, kids, sorry. God loves you infinitely and you're not the center of the universe at the same time trying to figure all that out. But yeah, the adventure continues.
Speaker 2:The adventure continues, oh, but what I was going to say is also implicit is yes, is that I'm going to mess up, my wife's going to mess up, and then we're going to have to say sorry and then ask for forgiveness, not just say sorry, oh, it doesn't matter. Yeah, from the Christian sense of like no, let there be a real repair. Like it doesn't matter. But like in the yeah From the Christian sense of like no, let there be a real repair. Like no, that was wrong. I responded poorly. I'm sorry and I'm asking your forgiveness.
Speaker 1:Do you forgive?
Speaker 2:me. Yeah, and like my kids, almost like no hesitation yes, I forgive you, yes, yes. And then and then, as as painful as that feels like has felt to me, I'm realizing like that's actually a huge win in terms of modeling. And yeah what is your, what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely. I mean, just just yesterday my husband and I got in a little argument and kids were in earshot. Right we were. We were talking about what constitutes a date and what doesn't, and I was talking about going to Home Depot to look at flooring and I thought that was a great. Yeah, that counts. And he's like no, because when we do these things like, then the next step is we're getting flooring like the next day.
Speaker 2:It's not just a browsing about Jordan, you don't get this.
Speaker 1:Like we've gone down this road before. So we were kind of going back and forth and my daughter said, Mom, are you and dad in a? And she wouldn't say it like in a fight or in an argument, you know.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I said we're having a little disagreement about something, but it's all good, your dad and I can work these things out, you know. And so she went away and did her thing. And then she came back, right before I had to jump on a coaching call and she said mom, I have an idea. She said I think this is what's worked in my experience. She's 10. I was biting my cheek, I'm like, and she goes. You know, sometimes people can be sensitive when you tell them what they're doing wrong. So what I try to do with Lincoln, my brother, is I just try to say listen, I'm sorry. What I did in this situation was she goes. So maybe you could do that to dad first give him a hug, then apologize and own your stuff. Just tell him what you did wrong, but don't. I know you might want to tell them how he was wrong, but don't tell them that, because people don't really like that, and I was like oh my gosh this is so wonderful, and.
Speaker 2:I needed it so bad.
Speaker 1:I was like you just used my words back on me and you have full permission at any time to do that, and I needed that right now because I was just going to run into my coaching session and be like, well, I think I'm right and we'll discuss this later.
Speaker 2:I still think Home Depot is the place.
Speaker 1:Yes, but I also want to circle back to John Eldridge, because I think I remember somewhere in his book him saying, like in all of his years working with men and studying men and masculinity, that he kind of came to this conclusion about men that there were three things that that men like, craved or needed or were made for. So maybe you can help me with this, but it was. They need a battle to fight, an adventure to pursue and a beauty to rescue.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:I love that. You know a battle to fight, an adventure to go on and a beauty to rescue. It's like man. If we could keep that top of mind when we're looking at our boys and they're saying, please just let me have more video games. You know, joey he's on fortnight all the time that we go.
Speaker 1:You know, that's not the the battle that you really exactly that's not the adventure we're talking about here right that's out there with people and with with the community and nature, and pursuing, you know, a, a woman to be your bride and to win over and to rescue, like that's so different than I think what we define as like masculine and what's going to be helpful for our boys.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's great. I think that there is that temptation, even unknowingly, just to be like oh, I just I'm drawn to video games when we do that and there is like that sense of like, look what I'm accomplishing, right, but like if I'm accomplishing that in the digital virtual world, that's going to leave me empty and it's and it's going to leave me unsure of okay, when I actually have to step up and express my feelings for a girl or ask her dad you know to, may I date your daughter, May I marry your daughter? Those are the same conversation.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:There's time spread out in there.
Speaker 1:This is part of that year of forming a man, right? You have these conversations that you don't ask to date and marry a man's daughter in the same conversation. Okay, check, you got that son Great.
Speaker 2:We have to be clear here, yeah.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:Yes, so so this this whole year can can look like. Whatever you know, it's probably it's going to be an expression of who you are as a dad and the needs and interests of your, your son, and abilities. But, to be clear, I was doing these father-son camping trips with my son a few years before that and I think we were talking in the last episode. What does that look like? My daughter, when she was 10 this past year, just even doing a single overnight camping trip with her was so amazing for her.
Speaker 2:She still talks about it. It was, you know, us going. It wasn't a lot of time or money, it was a single overnight we went. We drove like an hour and a half into the mountains. We pitched camp, we went hiking, we went fishing, we went stargazing, we were paddleboarding. The next day we were, um, yeah, we built a fire, we were collecting wildflowers to press the. I mean so just all these fun things.
Speaker 2:And again one of these, this little gift, this pocket knife that I wrapped up and gave her at the campsite, that, oh, my goodness, and I, we don't know necessarily what like are going to be core memories for our kids, right, but like these, like that's something that she was looking for. The daddy daughter camping trip, dad, you know for years, like, when is that going to be me? When is that going to be me? Um, and you guys, actually, by the time this airs, I think it won't be a secret. So, it's fine, I'm I've already planned my, my next child in line.
Speaker 2:He's nine right now. I've planned a father-son camping trip for him. That's going to be unique for him. Like he's really into dinosaurs and fossils, and so we're going to drive, you know, down, uh, west of colorado springs, to fluorescent fossil beds national monument to go look, and there's a place nearby, just down the road, where you can actually get a hunk of rock and separate out and like, look for your own fossils and you get to keep them. And I I'm just like, okay, so like that's, that's my next son, that's, you know, and there'll be some some other things too, and and his first pocket knife.
Speaker 1:That's so good. And as you're describing these adventures that you're taking as one-on-one trips, right, father, son, father, daughter Again, the thing that that stands out to me is maybe like the most important kind of setup to this whole thing, even more important than what you're actually doing is just using some simple words to invite them on this adventure with you and to help them feel that special bond and like this, it's just you and I. That's right and to be invited in like that, as a child, and to be seen and known and wanted in that way creates such a bond and connection between you and your child.
Speaker 1:And so, if you're listening to this and you're going, sean, you're pressing wildflowers, you're pitching a tent you're staying overnight.
Speaker 1:You're going, paddleboarding and stargazing and all these things like what. I can't possibly put all that together. You do it your way. But I think remember that the most important thing is that you just have an eye-to-eye conversation with your child and and invite them on this adventure with you and make it fun, make just connect with each other one-on-one, without the distraction of phones and and scrolling and and taking your work along with you, but just being present. It could be a couple hours, it could be an overnight, it could be a week, right, it could be an overnight, it could be a week Right, sure, yep, but the bond and creating that sense of belonging and being enough, you know, in the eyes of your father or your mother is like huge before, just a number of years ago, just thinking like in the simplest form, like my job as a father of children is to express the love of God, the father, for them, like I'm kind of incarnating God for them.
Speaker 2:Right now, the invisible God of the universe, whom we can't see, like dwells in me and in whatever imperfect, weak way I'm striving to cooperate with grace and to let him, as I'm I'm not a finished product, product either Like God is still fathering me yes, we're always students, we're always children. And to to be able to reflect the love and the delight of God, the father, and like how messed up are so many of us because we we haven't received that and we're unable to do that for you know, for our children.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think, when you put it in those terms, that that we are reflecting the love of God, the father to our children it's just a reminder that this is an intentional thing, like we have to be thoughtful about this and also give ourselves grace that we're going to screw up and we're not going to look just like God the Father most days.
Speaker 1:But, dang to try and to give that forgiveness, that undivided attention that I'm always here, no matter what bad thing you do or awful position you get yourself in, like I'm not going to leave you, I'm not going to turn my back on you. Right and and like you said, if you come from a broken family or you or you didn't have a father figure in your life or you didn't come to know God and Jesus until later in your life, then it can be tricky. It can be hard to remind yourself that. Oh yeah, god dwells within me. You know I have him within me and I am capable of shining his light on my children.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I feel like that brings up like a deeper question. Like all of us know people who have fallen away from the faith, and I mean I've I was a missionary on college campuses and so like I mean just like over and over, it's just like people who would go to support our work, cause they're like I wish you were around when my kids were in college, because they all left the faith, and it's just, you know, it's so common, and so I'm also a speaker. I'll go to churches and speak. I'm just trying to be transformed by God's grace and also to speak that forth to be an encouragement and inspiration to other people.
Speaker 2:But just really, the thought of when people ask the question like why did my kids leave the faith? I thought and I was doing everything right. And I think part of it for me is I, I was born and raised in the faith and then, as a preteen, I'm just kind of like I don't get this. Does this matter at all? Is it? We're here at the same place saying the same prayers, like does this mean anything? Yes, and then I had an encounter with Jesus personally that started changing the entire trajectory and then it was almost like it was this awakening of like? Oh, it's challenging because the ancient creed of Christianity confesses a belief in things seen and unseen, yes, in the visible and invisible.
Speaker 2:And it's hard because we don't see unseen things, we don't perceive them with our physical senses yes and so it becomes hard to like to dive into that, and so my sense in like surveying the church sort of thing is there's more, there's always more. They're like if, if we're tempted to be like, oh, this is just, like you know, boring, and like you know that this, this bible, is not just paper and ink, it's, it is the living word, and that's why we're still around, 2 000 years later, like if it's just a bunch of random fishermen. This probably would have fizzled out a little bit ago.
Speaker 2:But, but I would say for, for us as parents, is to to be students, to be, uh, children, to be open and say God, teach me more, draw me deeper.
Speaker 2:You are the desire of my heart, you are the reason why I'm here, you, you are the fulfillment of everything that I was made for and which is why we're continually restless here on earth. And we're, you know, we'll only be fully seen, fully realized, in heaven. And so all that to say is for us, and myself included, to be a student and to be like God. I haven't arrived. I need you to direct me and inflame my heart in the ways that I live the faith. So, in terms of, like, forming our children overall, this is, I guess, unspoken and assumed, but it's too important to leave unspoken. Is that striving to live the faith and make it the priority, not a priority like the priority, the foundation, the lens through which we see everything, you know, even above our relationship with our spouse? Yes, like God has to be everything, and then things are in the right order and then things can actually work, you know, harmoniously.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and so we've done several episodes on prioritizing God in the busyness of life and just making your spiritual life a priority, and we talk about how God is the well that we drink from so that we can pour out his goodness to our spouse and our kids, and if we're drinking from all kinds of empty wells out there we know there's lots of those we're not going to have.
Speaker 1:What it takes, everything's going to be more difficult, it's going to feel like we're just sludging through life and that, you know, this is just really hard.
Speaker 1:And I think, like you said, like making it a priority to be a student of your faith and to be constantly learning, to realize we're never going to arrive at this place where we don't need God anymore. We don't need, you know, scripture, we don't need small groups or Bible studies or small groups of parents that we get together Like. This is the lifelong like we were meant for, you know, continual learning and drawing closer to him and community, a sense of community. So, circling back with the rite of passage, it's so beautiful that you include other people in this rite of passage with your son Andrew and just saying, like, look like, besides me there are other men who are invested in you and who believe in you, and that is such a beautiful thing. Besides me, there are other men who are invested in you and who believe in you, and that is such a beautiful thing. I mean, that's what life is about is having a bunch of people in your corner who are cheering you on and have that faith in you that maybe you don't have in yourself.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, and so I think there are a few different facets there. There's a good to be had just in hey, here's, here's a new skill that's. That's helpful for me to know as a man. But the unspoken aspect of bringing another person in is that they're also witnessing. This is how I live my faith, this is how I treat people, this is how you know, just in all of our different temperaments and sensibilities and you know, personality and all that Everyone lives it differently and it's it is really helpful to have that reinforced and be like they're living it. They're living it. And then, even beyond that, there's there's a sort of affirmation Like you know, the guys were like, oh yeah, I remember so when we were on the, on the mountain.
Speaker 2:Like you know, like Andrew's doing so well, like we had. He had to wait up for us old guys, sort of thing. You know, he was just like. So you know the sort of affirmation, or like, or somebody was like, oh you know, I was really struck by how, you know how humble you were, andrew, like in this scenario, and so that's priceless. And yet another thing there was one guy I just overheard this and he said he's like Andrew I don't know if you realize how amazing it is Like you've hit the jackpot with your dad, like that he's doing this, like is phenomenal. And so I didn't ask him to say that.
Speaker 2:You know, and he's just affirming, and it's I mean, teenage years are hard, they're going to be hard, probably hard, no matter what I mean. And honestly, even like you know, a few years after, like you know, there's still the struggle, they're still struggling to know themselves, and you know. But, but my wife noticed a difference, the before and after.
Speaker 1:It just and I noticed a difference too, like where there's a little bit of kind of like I don't know what is it?
Speaker 2:The Oedipus and Electra complexes you know going on in our homes, you know. So, as far as Andrew and I like kind of you know clashing a little bit, she was like, oh, I noticed a difference Like that that brought an element to our his and my relationship that was life-changing.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you for sharing that, because that's when I talked to parents about, you know, teenagers kind of bumping heads with parents, and especially with boys. It is in that phase where the parents are like I don't know what his problem is, like I don't, he's just been so disrespectful. And what I've come to realize is it's that phase where, internally, the boy knows that it's time to become a man.
Speaker 1:It's time to break away, to have his own thoughts, to make his own decisions, to be able to be independent of his parents, and so that's where this tension happens.
Speaker 2:And so.
Speaker 1:I often would tell parents that means he's ready for the next level. He's ready for a challenge. He has become stagnant and internally he's not meant for that stagnant kind of like just being served all the time. He's ready to serve, he's ready to serve, he's ready to rise up and do something you know challenging, and so what's the next thing that he could go for? And they're like Jordan, that helped me.
Speaker 1:We got him into jujitsu, or you know, he decided he wanted to start doing 14ers, or we. We took him over to our friend's house and they ended up working on cars every Saturday for a couple of months, you know. And then that tension goes away because they get that independence and they realize what they're capable of and what your wife witnessed is a real thing, and we want that for our kids parents, right, we want this. We want to raise them up and as they should go, right, as it says in scripture, and and we want them to become independent of us and um, go out and be sent out into the world with the skills that they need to to feel capable and confident in in the roles that God gave them. I like that.
Speaker 2:Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's where the rub comes from. It's just like I feel this need to give myself, but I don't know how or what or when. Yeah, you're making me think of that, just this overall notion, and I feel like it should be like a mantra for us as men. But like a man's strength is meant for others, what the strength, the gifts that you have, men, are meant for other people.
Speaker 2:Not that that means we neglect ourselves, we don't love ourselves, that we don't stay in a good place with God, but like, when we're in a good place with God, then Jesus Christ reveals man to himself. And so when we're in relationship, that's that's how we're going to be in the right, we're going to find our place in the universe, as it were, our rightful place, and then then that frees us up to be able to how do we serve? And honestly, just in the past few months, for me, one of the themes in my own personal daily prayer is wow, look at these. This, this scripture came to mind. It says for the son of man came not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many, and I'm like that's, I guess.
Speaker 2:And then the other sense is like it's not just that we as Christians are like oh, jesus, say you know, died on a cross 2000 years ago and saved us, would actually be made saints, that we would become, as CS Lewis said, little Christs, that we would imitate Christ so much that we, however slowly you know, gradually that the Holy Spirit can purify us and make us who we're meant to be and that we're, you know, striving after virtue. And so, anyway, I've just been thinking about that theme and it it just keeps getting deeper. Another scripture came to me yesterday and I was journaling about where St Paul said I am happy to spend and to be spent for your souls you know, and then like, and then I'm just thinking about all these other connected scriptures, like greater love has no man than this, than he lay down his life for his friends.
Speaker 2:And like, I think, in a special way, like you and I know as parents, like yeah for yeah for friends and neighbors, but like applying that in a particular way, like if we fail, if we fail our children, nobody else is going to pick up the slack, that's right.
Speaker 2:Like these amazing innocent or not so innocent depending on the way people are, depending, you know, like it's a life and death scenario sort of thing. And so I'm just, I'm just convicted more and more that my entire life is and again, not to neglect myself or my own needs, but like to be in a place where how do I anticipate my wife and her needs, how do I love her in that and things, great and small, and all the thankless tasks that we have as parents. And you know, I want to teach my kids gratitude and at the same time, I it's fine that they didn't acknowledge that I was doing their dishes when they had kitchen, or you know, or they didn't acknowledge that I just spent all this time cooking and they just, you know, didn't even say thank you. Anyway, there's all of that kind of rolled up into life and how we're called to serve, and hopefully that model will eventually also be caught so that they can see this is what it means to pour one's life out for others.
Speaker 1:Such a great way to wrap this up. And we talked about boys becoming men, and so boys really learning how to be warriors and servants right To be able to fight the battles, to protect their families, to be able to stand firm for their faith because in my opinion, that's what it means to be a warrior. Right Is to put on the armor of God and to be able to defend your faith and to stand firm in it when culture's throwing you all these curve balls and temptations. But also to be able to be just a servant a servant to your spouse, a servant to your kids, and to be out and do new challenges and to be invited by your father to rise up and to learn these things is just equipping them more and more to be more like Christ, and I love that. That is just like the dream, right. That's what we're called to do as parents.
Speaker 2:Yes, and again, like this year of masculine initiation was a kind of a snapshot, like it was a particularly intense time of investment, but yeah, it does assume that it started before. It's going to continue after. Uh. And just in in brief, just to say I've been wondering as a dad, like what do I do for my daughters? I have four daughters. I'm like what does that look like for them? It's not going to look the same like my. My wife should take the the lead for that. And somebody else was also saying like a woman's body changes, like they don't have to be told they're a woman. There's actually something internal that uh lends them to the notion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know that, that they are now a woman, but, at the same time, knowing, knowing like dads. It's so significant for us to invest in our sons. It's one of the most important factors us being present, and for our daughters, it's also perhaps the most important factor for us to be present to them. And so, like, yeah, I do similar things.
Speaker 2:Things I do daddy daughter camping trips and as my, I think I told you just briefly because this is so good when my daughter was 15 and needed driving hours and be like, oh okay, we're gonna cram all this in, we're gonna go do a road trip and you're gonna drive the whole way and you know, we're gonna drive from here to to south dakota and camp in the badlands for free, free camping, camping out there. We're going to drive through the black Hills and, you know, camp somewhere else and like hit all these other. So it was just like fun and spontaneous and uh and also practically they got their driving hours.
Speaker 2:My, my daughter, my oldest daughter, who's now almost 19,. She looks back and she's like that was so fun and like it just gave her such confidence as a, as a driver. But also just to say like I take my daughter on coffee dates or ice cream dates and different, we just have this great open conversation and she's now like fast forward. I've told you like she's now engaged to be married, which is also another thing Like am I ready for to be a grandparent Right.
Speaker 1:I can't even Ready to be a grandparent Right.
Speaker 2:I can't even fathom that, ready or not, man, ready or not, that's all of life. But just the sense of looking back in terms of initiation. My daughter is now echoing back and saying, dad, it was you who taught me how. To date, it was your example that had me hold these high standards for what a Christian man should be. You know, you're the one who's taught me, you're taught me, how to say I'm sorry and conflict resolution and have confidence and like. So I hadn't known these things until you know the. She just so happened to articulate this after the fact. So I guess then, in summary, just the sense of like how, how do we, as parents summary, just the sense of like how, how do we, as parents, be present and intentional and then let the Holy spirit help, help us in all the, in all the other details?
Speaker 2:but to be present and to be looking for opportunities to show love.
Speaker 1:Thank you for kind of fast forwarding for us and showing us like this intentional time counts and it and it paves the way. It may seem insignificant at the time. Oh, I'm taking my daughter to ice cream once a month, or, you know, we do one trip every summer. Don't underestimate that. That little drop in the bucket ripples out and, like you said, shapes them for their future and for your daughter to be able to come back and be like thank you, dad, like you, you did that, like, oh, that's what we all hope for. You know, not that we get the credit, but that we can see the fruit. And even if we can't see the fruit, we need to be steadfast in persevering and being an intentional parent, because we know that it's the right thing to do.
Speaker 2:Yes and again, like the sort of urgency I know you and I have said in the past, like you always say, like you only have 18 summers with them where that that statistic that says like, on average, by the time they're 18, you will have spent 90% of the time you will ever spend with them on earth? And you're like, oh, okay, okay, that that's a little, that's sobering, like you've got my attention now.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely Well, sean, thanks for sharing your journey, your, your, your masculinity and just your connections with your daughters. This has just been such a gift. And, parents, if you're listening, I hope you feel inspired that you don't have to have it all figured out, you don't have to have a perfect plan, but just make a point, to just start and to do something, because you won't regret that. Sean, how can people kind of connect with you? Where's the best way for them to kind of find you and your guided adventures that you do in Colorado and beyond? Where can people find you?
Speaker 2:Yes, so probably most easily on windsweptco is the website and you can see promo videos for what we do, just all sorts of fun activities, and then also resources online for all of us busy parents. So, no matter where you live, just to inspire and give you ideas for, yeah, know, for all of us busy parents for, so, no matter where you live, uh, just to to inspire and give you ideas for, yeah, how do I be intentional, whether it's overnight or just even like I got two or three hours, how do we be creative with whatever's around us, to be, to be intentional with our kids. So windsweptco, uh, is a great place. And then, um, sean Garrison S H A U N uh, garrisoncom is my, my music site, just as kind of an aside uh, music on Spotify and Amazon and Apple music and things like that.
Speaker 2:So feel free to check that out if you're interested. Uh, but, yes, happy to be able to to connect with you If you have any specific questions. I, um I don't know if I told you this a friend of mine that I know she lives in Nevada and she's like we're living in the middle of nowhere, sean.
Speaker 1:But I had this idea.
Speaker 2:Like I want. I was wondering if you would come out and lead a father daughter camping trip and also just like give talks to the guys and just you know, talk about intentional parent, and I'm like I would absolutely be open to do that. So that will be coming up in the next few months and it's just another new thing and I'm just happy to to kind of show up and even just yeah, to make time and space, you know, for these guys and for their kids and just try to help them be creative and and intentional with wherever they're. So you know, so, if people and other people have called me actually after our last podcast some people called me and be like hey, how about you know? We live in, you know, new England, we live in Houston, texas Like, what are some options for us?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great. Contact Sean Y'all if you're listening and going. Okay, I just want to run this idea by someone or or? I've got a group of of mothers and daughters or or fathers and sons already that we just need a guide to come in and kind of help us with that. Sean is your guy, okay, so reach out to him. Is there an email that people could reach you at?
Speaker 2:Oh yes, Sean S-H-A-U-N at windsweptco.
Speaker 1:Windsweptco Awesome. Well, all of that is linked in our show notes below as well, so you can click below this episode to find all the links to Sean Garrison, windswept treks and any other resources that might be helpful for you. Listen, your son was never meant to wander into manhood. Okay, he was meant to be led there. So take the first step, be intentional, be prayerful, as we talked about, and remember you are not alone on this journey. God has equipped you for this mission. You are the exact right parent for your children and let's just raise up a generation of men who know who they are and know whose they are. I'll catch you on another episode of our show real soon. Thanks for joining us.
