The Families of Character Show
We serve parents who want more for their family. Our show offers research-based parenting solutions to the most common family problems, real-life parenting stories, and authentic support. The host, Jordan Langdon, is a wife, mother, and Licensed Clinical Social Worker who validates what parents go through and offers practical actionable steps parents can implement today to transform their families in joy and unity. Guests are experts in their field of work and provide high-value material for parents and families.
The Families of Character Show
Ep. #159: Finally, An Alternative to the Time-Sucking Smartphone with Joe Hollier
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Ever looked up from your smartphone and wondered where the time went? You're not alone. In this eye-opening conversation with Joe Hollier, co-founder of the Light Phone, we explore how our constant connection to smartphones is quietly eroding our family time, mental space, and ability to be fully present.
We speak about:
• Most smartphone apps are built to maximize "retention" through addictive design to collect data and sell advertising
• The Light Phone offers essential utilities (calls, texts, navigation) without browsers, email, or social media
• First Light Phone launched via Kickstarter, proving substantial demand for a minimalist phone option
• How one boarding school went completely smartphone-free using Light Phones, seeing improved academic and social engagement
• Light Phone offers privacy benefits as the company doesn't collect or sell user data unlike mainstream smartphone companies
For more information about the Light Phone, visit their website.
To get control over screen time and access our Cell Phone Contract check out our Tame the Tech printable. Ready for it all? Pour your favorite beverage and download our Tame the Tech Digital Bundle and get started on taming the tech in your home, with confidence!
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Hey there, friends, welcome back to the Families of Character Show, the podcast, where we dive into real conversations to help you show up with intention, live with purpose and raise kids of great character in this wild digital world. Today's episode whew, it's gonna be a game changer, I'm telling you. We're talking about the one thing that's stealing your attention, your peace of mind and, yep, even your family time. You guessed it your phone. But don't panic, we're not here to shame or guilt you into tossing your phone in the trash. We're here to give you hope, because today I'm sitting down with Joe Hollier, co-founder of the Light Phone, a revolutionary device that's helping people take back their time, their presence and their lives.
Speaker 1:And this isn't just about tech, it's about freedom, it's about finally having the mental space to be the parent, the spouse and the human you want to be. Joe shares the powerful story behind the light phone why less is more when it comes to our devices and how ditching distractions might just be the thing that saves your relationships. You'll hear the why, the how and the real life impact it's having on families just like yours. So if you've ever looked up from your screen that phone of yours that you keep in your pocket and thought where did the time go? This episode is for you till the end, because Joe shares a vision for the future of tech that'll inspire you and maybe even challenge you to make a bold move. So welcome to the show, joe.
Speaker 2:Wow, thank you so much. Thanks for such a lovely intro.
Speaker 1:Well, Joe, you're not just out there developing a new device, a new phone, a revolutionary device that gives people time back in their life, but, as evidenced by your background there in your studio apartment in Brooklyn, New York, you're also an accomplished artist. I read in your bio that let's see here. Yeah, your work's been commissioned by the Smithsonian and your client portfolio includes Nike, CNN and the Lincoln Center, just to name a few. So you've been an artist your whole life. Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess. So I didn't have the words always as a kid, but looking back it feels quite obvious now.
Speaker 1:So good, still creating things now, creator of this amazing phone that is helping so many people kind of break this addiction to this computer in their pocket. That's what I call the smartphone. This computer in their pocket, that's what I call the smartphone. So just tell us. You know what was happening in your own life when you became interested in creating an alternative to the smartphone, this instant gratification kind of everything in your fingertips type of phone that I would say 90% of us use.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at least 90%. So I think you know we started the light phone back in 2014. And ever since I graduated art school at the School of Visual Arts in 2012, I was working as a freelance artist. So you know, having a smartphone on me, it's easy to imagine how the boundaries between online and offline were so easily crossed. And you know, being at the beach on the weekend and going to change a song, I might see an email from a client which I can't really do anything about in the moment because I'm not at my computer. But I'm still distracted, frustrated and thrown off on what was supposed to be my day off at the beach. And you know, I think that's just one example.
Speaker 2:I think I also was feeling some pressure of how my studio time sort of, was always my sacred place, you know, a place to calm and focus on my inner. You know workings in life and work things out. And I found myself with a smartphone in the studio, this illusion of productivity, of sharing process, you know, distracting myself from actually even doing the thing or, you know, just sort of throwing off that train of thought that was so special to me. So you know I was feeling all sorts of train of thought that was so special to me. So you know, I was feeling all sorts of impacts, but I didn't necessarily consider myself a smartphone addict in the way that I'm sure. Most of us didn't quite see it that way, or at least always. And at the same time, google of all companies ironically had an experimental program for designers, of which I was a part of, and that's where I met my co-founder, kaiwei, and they were encouraging us to think of new types of technology companies. But really what they meant was smartphone apps, and so we learned a lot more how and why some of these smartphone apps were being built and funded, and the core thing we saw was that they were after this one metric of retention how much time does a user spend with our product every single day? Because if you made something sticky, something that people would check and recheck, well there was a business model to be made. You could scale it infinitely because it was software collecting all sorts of data and selling very targeted, effective advertising at a top dollar. So this was sort of the business model.
Speaker 2:So much of the internet and Kaiwei, and I just kind of said, well, gee, I feel he feels everyone we are interviewing feels habitually overwhelmed. You know we're actually craving an escape from the smartphone. Could building some app that fights for one more hour of your day actually make us any happier? Or am I ready to throw my phone in the ocean and fall off the grid? Obviously, that would be an extreme measure.
Speaker 2:So we started experimenting with this idea of going light and it really was inspired by, like, my very first internet experience where it was tied to one computer in my dad's study office and if you left that one chair, you left the internet behind. It was a very clear online offline and now that I had a smartphone 24 seven, I could check email on the bathroom before I brushed my teeth just thousands of times a day in theory. So we wanted to encourage people to intentionally check out but still retain the peace of mind that, god forbid, there was an emergency you're able to call or be reached. That was a huge modern convenience of the introduction of cell phones. So how can we take these fundamental utilities and things that are undeniably important to have without bringing the entire computer?
Speaker 2:And that was how the journey started, and it's evolved quite a lot since the first light phone, which only made phone calls, but that was a little bit of how we sort of came to this place of wow, there's an opportunity for a lot of people that aren't just artists, that want to focus in their studio. We're hearing from parents, we're hearing from students, we're hearing from CEOs and celebrities. You know it really crossed a lot of demographics and geographic boundaries that you know not a lot of products do. So. Even as an artist, I was inspired by these conversations because the conversation wasn't like does it have Bluetooth? It was like, oh my God, I'm a father and I feel responsible to check my email on the weekend, but I'm trying to play catch with my son, and you know these sort of conversations are very real.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, yes. Well, and it sounds like in this Google experiment, when they're saying, like, come up with a new app that will capture the attention of you know, hours of time from these people aren't doing Trying to give people time back, and so I love that. In a, in a, you know, environment like that, where you have all these creative people that are saying, yes, let's, let's compete for this, this attention and time, and let's create something that people really get all into, that a few of you are willing to go, this doesn't resonate well with our conscience, like we really won't be happy, even if we have a lot of money and we know that our app is, you know, one of the most popular, most downloaded and used. Like we have to. It sounds like you were thinking like, you know, we have to really sit with this and understand how we're going to feel about distracting millions of people for our own fame and fortune.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean that has never been either Kai or I's motivation. Even in joining the program I kind of came from an artistic angle of being critical towards tech and not necessarily thinking I'd come out with a company and a product, but maybe some insights that I'd take into a more fine art practice. But through this I realized that by saying I'm going to make a phone that does one thing in the age of 2015, at this point, does one thing in the age of 2015 at this point how that was sparking all sorts of polarizing reactions. You know some people told us it was the dumbest idea they'd ever heard. Why would anyone pay $100? And then you say, well, yeah, why would you? And it gets them thinking about, huh, the side effects and stuff.
Speaker 2:So even before the product existed, I think I was seeing people's gears turning towards realizing like, oh, this relationship with this magical device I just got in the last few years isn't 100% healthy and you know that's step one to.
Speaker 2:You know a long line of potential ways that you can adjust and a light phone might not be the only path towards adjusting that relationship, but I do think we were trying to bring awareness of potential ways that you can adjust, and a light phone might not be the only path towards adjusting that relationship, but I do think we were trying to bring awareness, and so that was, as, like artists and designers, our biggest interest.
Speaker 2:We didn't, you know, set out to be like we're going to make the most successful company ever, but we do believe that there's a lot of people you know I think there's well over a billion smartphones in the world that, even if a small fraction of people want something different, not like the mainstream dethroning of the smartphone, even if just a fraction of people, we still felt like that was a worthy mission, because in virtually every other industry, there's so many options for types of shoes, types of cameras, types of cars. Do you want a big SUV? Do you want a little tiny thing? Do you want to go off roads? Do you want to save? You know people have different choices, but it seems like when you go to a phone store, there's only these big, huge smartphones that all more or less have the exact same feature set and offering, whether it's Samsung, google, apple, et cetera. So we just felt like there was this opportunity, and an honest one too.
Speaker 1:Yes, and tell us how you got started as a business. I mean, you kind of put this out there to the masses and this idea. Tell us how that went.
Speaker 2:So you know we were in this program and we got some really interesting feedback. It was a conversation starter, to say the least, but that still meant we were many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars, away from getting an actual prototype built. So Kaiwei and I used the internet this platform called Kickstarter to crowdfund the original Light Phone, and so we put the idea out there and got really lucky that some press covered it and I think because it had such a polarizing reaction of people loving it, hating it, it really led to like a sort of viral moment for it and we were able to raise enough on crowdfunding to kick off the light phone experience. I think that's one of the beautiful things of the internet.
Speaker 2:I think you're going to hear me be really critical of the internet, at least the state of it today, but I think there's still so much promise and potential and power possible to connect us, to teach us and educate and share knowledge of the internet.
Speaker 2:But I think the current state of like you know, the business models between so much of the internet. But I think the current state of the business models between so much of the internet is just selling ads and collecting data sort of disrupts that. But there's something like Kickstarter I think is a great example of how people can come together and say we want to see this in the world, put down some money to actually kick it off, and once we did that, we were able to then prove to investors and manufacturing partners that there is a group of people that are interested and willing to even put money up a year plus ahead of delivering a phone. So you know, that was really amazing and a huge validation for us that we were onto something and that really was the beginning of the light phone becoming a reality.
Speaker 1:Crowdfunding on Kickstarter. I love it because you're not saying, guys, just throw the baby out with the bathwater, the internet is all bad, never get online. But you're saying there's some areas that you can maximize the benefit of the internet by getting people behind your cause and raising funds and being able to do something that otherwise you might not have been able to do. So that's fantastic. Tell us about this phone, like even just the logistics of it. You call it the light phone. Where did the name come from?
Speaker 2:Well, the name actually was, it felt, so second nature.
Speaker 2:It was one of the very first names that came to mind, but it was in relation to the heaviness of us, the feeling of heaviness that I felt owning a smartphone.
Speaker 2:So it wasn't about the physical weight of it, but the sort of mental weight that that had on us in a sort of metaphorical sense, and the light phone being this sort of light feeling. Um, and you know, as I thought about it more and we tried so many different other names, uh, we found ourselves coming back to the light phone and just sort of felt right and we imagined how light could be applied as a brand to potentially other objects beyond phones in the future. How can we take the same design lens of doing something very intentional, utility driven and as beautiful as possible of a way, without, you know, vying for more and more attention and data, like I think there's a real place for tools that use technology well to make our lives easier, so that we can go back to spending quality time with our kids, you know, not to use it as the entertainment and the distraction from our lives, but actually to help us get back into life.
Speaker 1:So it serves two purposes. The name One it's lighter, because you have less of the mental drag and the weight on your mind and the overwhelm because of the constant friction of distraction and just the residue that hangs around when you flip from one thing to another on your phone. But also because it's lighter than the smartphone in the way of like apps and functions on the phone too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally. I mean, as I started thinking on it more, all sorts of light versus dark Light is truth. I'm a photographer and an avid fan of sunsets, and light is just one of my favorite substance, since walking into a room with beautiful light, it just warms. So you know there was layers of meaning that sort of were probably unconsciously in that, being one of the first names that came to us.
Speaker 1:Well, I love your website. Just the feeling I get when I go to your, the homepage of the light phone, is just this freedom, the simplicity, this like breath of fresh air. This am 42 days into no social media. Okay, so this was kind of a fast.
Speaker 1:I decided to go on, and originally it was going to be this 40 day fast and then I'd allow myself to kind of peek into it and decide if I wanted to go back or not. And the first 10 days was a bit of hell, to be honest. I recognize this behavior pattern I had of checking my phone and checking Instagram and Facebook, and it was this automatic, just absolutely unconscious process that was happening with me. And so the first 10 days was like this feeling of kind of shame, like do I really get on my phone this many times a day and for what? What new information am I learning? Is it helping me in my work? You know all of these things.
Speaker 1:And so when I quit checking the social media apps, then I went to my email and really for the rest, like the last 20, 30 days, I and it got better. But I noticed myself just obsessively checking my email, because then that was one thing where it was like, well, I didn't say I was going off email, I said I was going off social media. So it's in my mind thinking I'm being true to my, to my promise. But then I started backing off from my email and I thought what would it be like not to have phone access to my email? And then all these thoughts started coming to my mind oh, you'd be less productive.
Speaker 1:You know people would think that you're blowing them off if you don't get back to them within an hour or two. You know, you just start telling yourself all these things about if I don't instantly respond to someone or instantly know what's in my inbox, this is going to be bad, basically. But this idea of not having email, not having social media at our fingertips this is a real mind shift that if you want to do these activities which you know especially email for our jobs is an important aspect of our life, then you want to do these activities which you know especially email for our jobs is important aspect of our life, then you have to be very intentional about setting up time that you are in front of your computer, processing emails, getting back to people, right, and kind of doing this on a scheduled basis. To us a little bit about people's experience with going you know, getting rid of their smartphone and everything at their fingertips to this light mode where you have talking, texting, podcasts, navigation. And is there one more feature?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's probably about a dozen simple tools, things like an alarm, a calendar and a timer, but really, yeah, the light phone doesn't have any email, it doesn't have an internet browser, doesn't have any social media or other infinite feeds, so, you know, no news feeds and we really, really strive to make it so there's nothing that you can even make an excuse to check and recheck on the phone itself, because, actually, like, your experience with sort of slimming down your smartphone is like brings so true to some studies that we had done prior to building the Light Phone 2, which was when we started to add some of these more utilitarian functions beyond just phone calls that the original phone had, and we saw, you know, people would delete the social media that they were using the most, and then it became replaced very quickly with some other platform, whether that was now Reddit or shopping unconscious crutch that you just want to like do something on the smartphone even though you don't have the social media.
Speaker 2:You're just you sat on your couch after a day working like now what? And instead of like thinking of what to do, you can just pull out the phone and there's something to kind of pacify this is killing me, joe.
Speaker 1:This is so true and this is my life right now.
Speaker 2:And you know, I mean it's to be expected. We've become in some ways rewired by having such a hyper connectivity and that dopamine that comes with seeing a new thing, whether it's positive or negative news, it's clickbait and it's kind of all over the email. You know, it's more of a roulette, I guess good and bad. More of a roulette, I guess good and bad. But so that's why we felt it was really intentional to design phones that felt drastically different than a smartphone. And I think one huge thing is like there's no color on the phones. This is the Light Phone 2 and the Light Phone 3. So this one only has an E-Ink screen, so it's even like more limited in terms of the speed and the size. And so it's even like more limited in terms of the speed and the size. So you know it has a lot of the same function as Light Phone 3, but it's you know it rewires how you use the phone. You can't just text 20 messages back to back to back. You have to be a little bit more intentional and you know, I think that ultimately helps lead to the lifestyle change that is the fundamental part of using Light Phone, I think, more than most of the products I kind of talked about, like getting a new pair of shoes. The Light Phone asks a lot more of the user in terms of, like, probably, a gym membership or a diet bite. You know you really have to think about how you're going to get around some of these things that you've been so used to. But that's also how it can have such a potentially positive and profound shift if you're able to transition yourself fully to something like the Light Phone. But I think, yeah, everything that you've experienced we definitely feel is possible, and I guess I would just, you know, sort of add that, like, when it comes to using a light phone, most users, myself included, have a device like this laptop, which I'm using to do this podcast, or some people have a tablet or maybe their old smartphone, but they just keep it at home on Wi Fi. So it's not about completely going cold turkey from social media or email but being, as you said, sort of more intentional, about carving out how and where and when you want those things in your life.
Speaker 2:You know, for me, email is a huge aspect of running the light phone, but also an incredibly stressful aspect of running the light phone, so, by you know, having it limited to my laptop. I one, I love having a full keyboard versus trying to blast an email off on a small screen. I have all my files and links and everything's just sort of there to take care of business as efficiently as possible and then at the end of the day or let's say I need to focus on a deeper project, some writing or otherwise, I can close my laptop and not be tempted to just check and check and recheck. I think a big other aspect is that I think you sort of mentioned we have these expectations, these illusions that people are expecting us to reply so immediately.
Speaker 2:And I think one freeing thing of the Light Phone experience that anyone can take without necessarily transitioning is having more conversations around that, like, if you decide you want to check email more regimented and scheduled hours, letting your colleagues know or your boss or your employees know that hey, this is how to reach me for this type of urgency at these types of times.
Speaker 2:And I think by doing that you realize like way more often than not people are super accommodating and that it's actually great to have these things spoken out so they're not even doubting themselves if this is an inappropriate time to email or this or at least you know, I think my team knows like if they email me after a certain hour, I might not see it till the morning. So if it's a different degree of urgency, they might call or text me if I need to probably get to my machine. So for me that's worked really wonderfully. And obviously not every single career will allow for this in a full way that I have. But I think it's really cool to see the different ways that people carve the tools into their life and it's all about being intentional and setting these sort of boundaries, and not because we're so addicted or this or that. It just really does help at least someone like my mind. Work in that carpet carpet I'm not gonna be able to say that word compartmentalizing them into their different things. Compartmentalizing them into their different things.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's good for all of us to to have an idea of what we're going to do, when we're going to do it and being intentional about that. Now, I think when I was um hearing you talk in in a town hall meeting that I was at um, you mentioned something about how, like this, instant messaging got started back in the day. Who was it? Was it uh?
Speaker 1:AOL maybe yeah, yeah, talk about that a little bit like the intention behind it and how what actually happened well, if I'm remembering the right uh train of thought it was.
Speaker 2:You know, some of our first inspiration for the light phone was the idea that on AOL Instant Messenger you had things like away messages and you signed off and I think it was expected that you wouldn't be available 24-7, where, now that we had the phone just so easily available, we sort of forgot that there is a way to turn off the internet.
Speaker 2:You know that the internet isn't something that has to be 24-7 accessible to us, and so I think that's really like what, when I reflected back on my instant messenger days, seeing how it transformed into this multi-platform where you find yourself going between four different apps, that you're talking to people and it's like that's sort of just checking and rechecking and almost illusion of productivity. That uh feels a part of that, and I think you know there's so many things. There's like just because you saw someone's post about them going on vacation and press thumbs up on facebook doesn't mean you actually interacted with them and asked them about the trip. Or you know there's a lot of these more shallow interactions that happen in lieu of or instead of you know, real life or phone calls or just more intentional reaching out to your friends and family.
Speaker 1:Well, I noticed when I messaged my family and said, hey, I'm not on social media, so if you want to, if you wanted me to know about something, you're going to have to give me a call or shoot me a text.
Speaker 1:It was like, well, this could be like silent for a long time, but it's okay because it's distilling. You know, it would help me edit relationships too. Right? What's the most important information that comes in and what's most important for us if we're not on social media to share with others? Right, like a phone call, a letter, you know, getting together and sharing, putting your phones in a basket and sitting and having conversations about what's been going on the last three months, since you've seen each other last, like, these are the connections that we crave and that we're missing and that we really are not getting. By scanning social media, even though it feels like you're involved in people's lives, it's just, it's really a facade, it's. It gives you a snack, like a little bite of something that makes you think that, yeah, you're being satisfied, but you're actually just hungry for the deeper, bigger meal.
Speaker 2:Totally yeah. The food analogy of junk food versus real food and snacks is definitely real, and even to the extent of if you're on a diet, you would probably not have snacks in your pantry. If you're trying to cut down your digital diet and change it, you might not want snacks in your pocket.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, and I found myself I've been snacking on my email at the stoplights. I mean this is horrible, this is distracting me from real life things that could be dangerous to myself and my family and others. And so if you're listening, and that's you like, you find yourself just obsessively checking your phone. Or you're not even sure how often you're checking your phone and you're thinking, oh, I want to go on a fast from social media or delete apps or whatever. Go ahead, try that. I think that's a good idea because that gives you an idea of you know, a baseline of of where you are right now. But I'm just thinking just going from having all these apps on my phone, even if I delete social media, take my, my email off, just all the other distractions, man, you can jump on Zillow and check out homes in your neighborhood For what?
Speaker 1:I wouldn't do this if I had to go to my computer, log in and look up Zillow on my computer, right. But like you said, just the sitting down after a long day work or whatever and then just looking around at the variety of apps that could just distract you and take you away for 30 minutes ends up in two hours. And then, just like for what? I just lost time with my kids and my spouse and like I'm nowhere further down the road than before I started this 1000% yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness. Well, what should parents who are looking to get their, their child, a phone you know why should they consider the light phone? You think about yourself, you know, growing up in today's day and age and if you're 12 or 13, you know, and your parents thinking, well, I should get them an iPhone. They're going to give me a free one next time I sign up for the upgraded version. You know I could just give that one to Johnny and we'd be set. You know I could just give that one to Johnny and we'd be set. You know I'll put in all the security measures and all the software that pops up on my phone that tells them when they've accessed something that they shouldn't. You know like what kind of give us your take on why parents should consider the light phone above a smartphone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's a very interesting and kind of alarming conversation. Kaiwei and myself are not parents ourselves and honestly, we didn't set out with intentions of making a phone that would be suitable for children. And I actually think that is one of the pluses for the light phone in children's, because most kids don't want a phone that's inherently designed for kids. They want an adult phone. So that's one thing. But you know, it was immediately obvious to us when parents started reaching out why a light phone might be a good fit. Because there's obviously this concern of peace of mind, of knowing that your child's reachable and can reach you. You know that's one of the wonderful things about cell phones. But then there's this huge other basket of and sometimes, you know, parents don't even realize to the extent some of these things exist or could be harmful. You know they're just like who knows what social media apps they might get that I'm not even aware of, to block or this or that. And you know kids are very savvy. A lot of these software solutions are only so good and even if you are locking it down, they're still probably using it more than they'd like. And you know we've heard of all sorts of problems with social media affecting mental health and confidence in kids, which is just so sad and so grateful. I didn't have that quantifiable metric likes and friends and followers in that way as a kid, and so you can imagine that to kids' performances at school affecting their attention span, bullying that happens on these things. So you know there's so many concerns that we hear from parents and I think where a light phone or a flip phone or some other very simple phone from a hardware perspective, like really stripped down, is that it will ease a lot of those concerns. But it also comes with other concerns of like is my child now going to feel like they're missing out because everyone else is on this app and they're not on the app? So you know we sympathize a lot with parents because these are not easy one size fits all sort of problems to deal with. You know some kids need rideshare to get to school or some schools are now leaning on assuming every child has a smartphone for scanning the homework assignment and you know these are all just like very real things that parents and children are having to navigate.
Speaker 2:I think we're like we've seen the Light Phone 2 work really well is we've done a couple of experiments. One case study we did in a school called Buxton in Western Massachusetts where the entire school it's a pretty small private school as well as all the faculty on campus it was a boarding school went completely smartphone free. So they all used the light phones for a full school year. I mean they've kept the policy going. But for this study, and I think it was immediately apparent some of the positive benefits, not just academically but socially on campus, you know people were more engaged at lunch when I interviewed the kids they kind of hated the light phone but reluctantly able to admit all these fun things that were happening. So I think they appreciated it as time went on. So I think they appreciated it as time went on and I think the fact that everyone was on the same boat just really made that a smoother experience. And you know these kids they did have state of the art computer rooms and they weren't, you know, just completely off the grid with it. You know they were still learning how to be, you know, efficient in these programs that they'll probably need in college and their careers beyond, but without, you know, the complete smartphone 24-7. So that was really encouraging.
Speaker 2:But it's also very hard to imagine that, scaling across public schools and other things. We've seen some groups of parents, or even sometimes students themselves, kind of make these Luddite clubs or parent packs that, like our teenagers, our kids aren't going to do it, and that's been really interesting to see. And we've seen a couple of other schools try similar initiatives. But you, it's really is a complicated and hard to navigate space, but uh, I think overall parents feel like the positives of a simpler phone have outweighed some of the potential negatives. Um, but you know, there isn't really a one size fits all. I think the iPhone might be a great fit for some, but uh, it's really a one size fits all. I think the light phone might be a great fit for some, but it's really a tricky thing to navigate.
Speaker 1:I'm just so, so grateful that there's an option, a real cool looking option like this isn't the flip phone which we know. The flip phone is old because it flips open and you have to press one button three times to get a letter right, like um. So that is a little bit embarrassing for kids to use. But I've also met college students who are like this is all I've got, I got. You know, you go to ski slopes and they're like show us your pass on your phone and they're like this is my flip phone. I don't have that.
Speaker 2:So you're going to have to. You know, some of the full circle, which is so awesome, whether it's a light phone or a flip phone. We're just so encouraging of it all.
Speaker 1:Yes, this is great and I love the look of the light phone, like it's sleek and it's thin and it can fit in your pocket and it like it's just a good looking phone and it's not giant like the phones are now right the iPhones of Google, whatever. Yeah, like wallet size or credit card size almost.
Speaker 2:Pretty close to it yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is great. This is so, so awesome. I mean developing a phone and an operating system like there's so much that goes into this. Joe, we were talking before we hit record that you're an artist, you love that time painting, and now you're 10 years into this. It's been 10 years since the launch of the first Light Phone and now people are able to pre-order Light Phone 3. What drives you to continue putting in the work? Or do you just sometimes think I'm just going to go off grid myself and just disappear from this whole project?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean I'm sure that feels like a desire sometimes in the heat of it, but I will say that it's been like beyond humbling to hear from some of our users across the board of types of reasons why they might have come to Light Phone, or even like types of people that have found themselves using Light Phone, and to hear the stories of like the tangible impacts that getting themselves off the smartphone, sometimes getting three to five hours a day, back without the distractions throughout that, even just the quantity of time that they've been able to then funnel into their life, whether that's enhancing the quality of their very close in their life relationships, taking on hobbies and passions with more seriousness, focusing on their job, their career, or even not avoiding some potential things in your life frictions that are difficult and you need to work on, whether you want to change your career or change your relationships. And so I think seeing how that has snowballed in such wonderful ways and hearing these heartfelt stories, that moves us as a team so much. And as much as I love painting, paintings, I don't quite get the same feedback. I don't think any of my paintings has had nearly that kind of impact on someone, and I always make it, you know, remind them that they changed their life.
Speaker 2:Our phone was just a small catalyst but we're just like, so honored to be a part of that journey for them, probably one of many products that they've incorporated to help them get there. So that really moves me and I think we're a really small team and some of our team has been with us for eight plus years now, some of the oldest. I mean we're still able to sit around a large dinner table and, uh, I think their commitment to it and belief and passion like makes me be like I have to see this through as far as it can go and I think each year it feels like the world seems more open to the idea of a phone like the light phone. I think a lot of our struggles have been with the scale that we've been at and trying to get out there and making a phone as a small team is no easy task and you know, each year we get a little bit better at it, the phone's a little bit more advanced, we've fixed a couple of the quirks, we've learned a couple of the quirks, we've learned a couple of lessons. So hopefully each year the chance of it reaching more people is possible.
Speaker 2:So I still believe in it as much as I did at the beginning, if not more, maybe even. And so you know, yeah, my day-to-day life is a little bit less glorious than maybe the fantasy dream I had of what I might be doing in my 30s, but it's also mind-blowingly more impactful than I could have ever imagined. So I feel very just grateful that you know we've had a lot of miracles align to get to where we are, and so just counting our blessings really, Just what you said the impact that you're developing this device, along with people's choice right, you have to engage.
Speaker 1:Somebody has to engage their will in order to buy the Light Phone and then use it in the way that it's intended but just the impact that this device is having on so many individuals, families, schools that was so awesome that you shared about that whole school doing this experiment for a year and communities, like we're getting our lives back people. I mean, if you're listening to this, I want you to share this with other people in your community, because, even though the light phone has been around for 10 years, it takes 10 to 15 to 20 years for people to really hear about something new like this, get on board, understand the community and the mission behind it. And so I feel like there's this real rising up that's happening with people of my age range that were born in the 60s, 70s and 80s that are like we are sick of all of this distraction. We are tired of the smartphone. We want to throw it out at the stoplight and run it over with our car.
Speaker 1:Like, give us another option. And it's like wait what? There's another option or we can get our life back, but still have a phone accessible to us for things like calling, shooting a text to somebody. You know directions in our car, because now we're dependent on that. We can't print out MapQuest directions anymore and come through you know 17 pages to figure out how to get somewhere. But you've equipped this phone with just the necessary tools that we need for the basics to stay in touch with people, but also the permission to get off of stay in touch with people, but also the permission to get off of all of those other apps that are just distracting us and taking us away from our relationships. So talk to us real quick before we kind of wrap things up. Talk to us about privacy and how the light phone is better than alternatives when it comes to kids, and just the privacy issues you have to worry about with smartphones.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think one huge aspect of the smartphone is that the business model behind everything from using Google products, google Mail, google Calendar, google Maps to something like Facebook, whatsapp, social media and these other things is that our data is a hugely valuable asset that these companies are, you know, maliciously at times, often taking at any degree that they can capture. And in some ways, you know, data harvesting feels harmless because you don't notice the immediate impact in your own life. You're like, well, I've had nothing to hide, then who cares? It's sort of an attitude that's really easy to take, but I think people are starting to realize that through all of this data collection, people are getting these hyper-targeted ads and being able to manipulate us and keep us vulnerable more and more effectively at almost alarming rates, and there's probably even more unintended side effects that I'm not even aware of from it. So it hasn't been the number one reason why users get a light phone, but it's still something that I think is a fundamental part of why people support it, and that is really just that. Our business model is to sell you a phone and we call it a phone designed to be used as little as possible, because none of our business model has anything to do with how much you use your phone or what kind of data is available, because we're not interested in the data, because it's not even a part of our business model. You know, if we take users' data their email address, if they're like signed up to our account and stuff like that that's our responsibility. So we don't want to have this huge responsibility of having everyone's data unnecessary data at least. And so you know, when we build tools for the Light Phone, something like our directions tool, we actually pay for each time a user queues up a navigation, because we are working with a company similar companies that you might see in your car, white labeled like in car navigation to offer that service without sacrificing user privacy. And it may not be like everyone's biggest concern, but I think that's one fundamental aspect of us, of our belief that to get away from this current model that the internet and all these platforms have taken, we feel like that's an important part of it.
Speaker 2:It's not that the light phone has crazy security features, so you know, sometimes those words get used interchangeably, but I think the fact that nothing on the light phone you know you don't have your email, you don't have a lot of these information, your passport info it's not on there, especially on the light phone too. You don't have even any images or things like that. Like, there's just a lot less data on there and then there's no third parties that ever have access to it. So often on a smartphone, an app will seemingly be doing something very basic, but actually behind the scenes they're trying to sell your data to some data broker and that's their real business model. But you know, you think you're just setting alarms or something like that, but it's like trying. So you know there's just a lot of really sneaky things happening and I think a lot of users find our approach to be rather refreshing in that regard.
Speaker 2:And then, when it comes to a kid, you know the Light Phone 2 doesn't have a camera. I think this one's probably even more suitable for a first phone. It's slower, smaller. You know it's slower, smaller. You know it's not going to even be nearly as addictive in wanting to text or scroll around. You know it's really a super simple phone and I think by, you know, not having any of that, uh, it inherently limits some of the dangers of the phone. Light phone 3, our newest model, does have a camera and you can send images and things. So it is a little bit more advanced in that regard and maybe not as suitable to a very, very first phone for a kid, but, you know, maybe a teenager that might be a nice middle ground, compromise of sorts.
Speaker 1:I love that recommendation that the Light Phone 2 may be best for first-time users. Yeah, that doesn't have the ability for them to be tempted to send crazy pictures to their friends and just be on it more often, but then, if they prove themselves, I like the idea of kind of like graduating up to the next version of the phone too. So when the Light Phone 3, the third model? When does it actually launch?
Speaker 2:So we began shipping at the end of March. Oh, but you know the nature of launching a product at our scale we've been pre-sold out, so it's in this pre-order phase still. So we have gotten thousands of phones out into the world and it's amazing to start to hear some of the feedback and see it out in the world. But right now it is still on backorder, I think, with about an end of August estimated delivery. But we are getting light phone twos back in stock. I think the gray one is and the black one will be soon as well, but the new one, yeah, it's kind of like a place of pre-order and then we deliver chronologically.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. That's so exciting that you're sold out and there's a wait list and people pre-order. They put their trust in your company and they're like I can't wait to get my Light phone.
Speaker 2:No, we want to deliver faster, though I think that's we're all eager. Everyone's getting a little impatient, us included.
Speaker 1:I get that. Well, how long does a light phone last Like? Will we be pressured to upgrade to the next version, or is there going to be software updates that are going to cost us money there? There's no way to advertise to us through this phone because it doesn't have that capability, right?
Speaker 2:You're not going to be able to upsell us and things, and yeah, I'd say we take a very uh, not aggressive approach in that regard. Uh, there's a term called planned obsolescence, which is when a technology maker intentionally which is when a technology maker intentionally cripples a product so that they can upsell you the new model. And you know this makes sense because if your profit is the foundational motive and direction of your company, that would increase profits. Light Phone takes a pretty different approach in that we try to future-proof our devices as much as possible, so something like the Light Phone 3, we really hope that this could last the user three, five to maybe even 10 years. A few things we did were allow a user to replace the battery. I mean, you can always send it to us if you didn't feel comfortable, because that's a component that inherently degrades after a couple of years. So that's one component that we wanted to make easier to swap so that you can extend the life of your phone. And then, because the features are so simple compared to a smartphone, these specs should be good enough to last for years. You know, maybe cameras will get a little bit better, but that's. The camera on the light phone isn't trying to be the world's best professional camera, it's trying to be a nice, simple, fun tool for capturing a couple of memories. Or you know the utility of sending your spouse a photo of which towels do I buy Right here's the menu Tell me what you want. Like there's a very practical need as well. So, by making sure that the hardware was capable of lasting many years.
Speaker 2:And then, on the software side, we don't have any intention to upsell you and we actually don't see this as a replacement for this we still support the software on the Light Phone 2. We're still making new ones, and there's lots of users that have this that didn't need the upgrades of the light phone three. Wonderful, or maybe they upgraded light phone three and then they're giving this to their kid now. Um, you know, there's a lot of ways, but I, yeah, I'd say that's something we're really proud. Uh, and that's our goal.
Speaker 2:You know, I think it's it's a work in progress. We've learned a lot about repairability, from the light phone to things that might break, that were hard to repair. We've tried to make something like the port more repairable on the light phone three. So if you did break the port, we can probably fix it if you send it in. So you know, I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned there. There's a company called Fairphone that is really amazing at it, and so we look to them as like a real admirable company to aspire for that level of repairability and just transparency through their whole supply chain. It's really inspiring.
Speaker 1:Wonderful, and I've heard that, even though this is kind of blowing up and you guys are selling more and more of these and people are starting to really understand the benefits and getting their lives back. You also have good reviews on your customer support, and that's wonderful, right? I mean because you can stop at an Apple store anywhere within like 20 miles of your home, it seems like, and just go in and help me with this. But to have a small team of people who are dedicated to fixing the problem, getting your phone back into your hands as soon as possible and then just making a quality product that, like you said, doesn't expire when your payoff is coming next month I'm noticing this with my own phone. I'm going. This is really weird. I just got a message saying you know, I paid off my phone and all of a sudden, like it's bogged down and I can't get to things quickly and I'm like this is no coincidence, this is on purpose, so I'll go back and upgrade my phone. Like this is nuts.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm not trying to be conspiracy theorist or anything, but it really does feel like that is the case. Yeah, yeah, well, and there's been many examples of them doing it in the past a variety of companies and not just phones. You know this is something that's been happening across things, but you know, a billion smartphone users getting new smartphones every single year it's pretty easy to imagine the environmental impact that that can start to have.
Speaker 1:Wow, totally Well, tell us the cost of a light phone. How much is it going to cost for the light phone 2 that doesn't have the camera, and the light phone 3?
Speaker 2:So this one is available for $299. And then the light phone 3 is currently at $599 pre-order price. There's a chance the final retail price for the Light Phone 3 might increase. You know there's a lot of different factors, but the tariffs are definitely one sort of ongoing thing that's really impacting our everything. But yeah, but so $599 and $299 right now if you were to pre-order the Light Phone 3.
Speaker 1:Wow, To me this is way cheaper than a smartphone is and people do get much cheaper.
Speaker 2:phone plans is one other sort of benefit, because you don't need as much data to do hours of YouTube. You know people are getting our our. One of our optional plans starts at $25 a month, so for some users, you know, the phone starts to pay for itself in that regard as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, totally Okay, and you can just take this phone when you get it and you can. Any plan supports this phone if you're with AT&T or Verizon or whatever the big carriers for sure they're all certified, some of the smaller carriers.
Speaker 2:It's a little bit more hit or miss. We do have some more info about that. On our site there's a page called compatibility checker so you can see which country, which carriers. We're a little bit conservative. It probably works on more carriers than we claim, but those are the ones that we can guarantee. And if it doesn't work, you know we'll happily refund your phone or help troubleshoot it as much as we possibly can.
Speaker 1:Yes, awesome, joe. This has been so enlightening. I feel so encouraged to have had you just share with us this new invention. I say it's new and 10 years old, but just this way of really revolutionizing how we use technology so that we can get our lives back Like this is huge.
Speaker 1:This is what we're all about here at families of character is intentional quantity, quality time with our loved ones and when this smartphone is getting in the way nonstop every day and you've tried the different apps that are going to block you from using the social media and all this stuff and you still feel that drag and that emotional overwhelm and that heaviness. We have a new option now the light phone. So thank you so much for what you and your co-founder are doing. I mean, this is tireless work. I know you have a team, so tell them from the bottom of our hearts here at Families of Character thank you for improving our lives and giving us time back and to keep going, and I can't wait to be part of the light community and to see where this goes in the next 10, 20 years. Like you said, there may be other things that you guys invent that help us get time back in our lives and have more healthy relationships with the people that matter most to us. So thanks again, joe.
Speaker 2:My pleasure. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Yes, Guys, go check out the Light Phone, okay, and make sure that you consider the light phone as an option for yourselves and your children. If you've got a child coming up and you're thinking, oh, a birthday gift for them, well it might be okay to suspend this idea of a computer in their pocket and instead get them something that will keep them connected to their friends and to you but also lead them not into temptation I'm going to put it like that. So, anyway, if you felt that this was helpful, please share this with people in your community. Definitely share this episode with your spouse. Text it off to friends that you have that you've struck up conversations with about technology, social media, the impacts of the phone, all of that. Let's just really get this message out there far and wide, and we'll continue to bring on great guests like Joe in the future to talk more about just technology and how we can be intentional as parents and maximize life with our kids. I'll catch you on another episode of our show real soon, take care.
