The Families of Character Show
We serve parents who want more for their family. Our show offers research-based parenting solutions to the most common family problems, real-life parenting stories, and authentic support. The host, Jordan Langdon, is a wife, mother, and Licensed Clinical Social Worker who validates what parents go through and offers practical actionable steps parents can implement today to transform their families in joy and unity. Guests are experts in their field of work and provide high-value material for parents and families.
The Families of Character Show
Ep. #165: Discipline Without the Division with Kyle & Sarah Wester
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Ever feel like you and your spouse are playing completely different games when it comes to discipline? One moment you're calmly coaching your child through a tantrum, the next your partner swoops in with strict consequences, leaving your kids confused about the rules and possibly learning to play you against each other.
Creating a united front in discipline is essential for raising secure, respectful children who understand boundaries and feel emotionally safe.
In this episode, we discuss:
• Four parenting quadrants
• Parents often swing between authoritarian and permissive styles depending on stress levels and their own upbringing
• Many couples have one partner who leans authoritarian and another who leans permissive, creating confusing mixed messages
• In loving guidance, power isn't used against children but rather alongside them to co-create solutions
• Children notice when parents model humility, repair, and emotional regulation
• The goal is to raise children with internal motivation rather than external control
Visit Kyle and Sarah Wester at artofraisinghumans.com to learn more about their coaching programs for parents and to sign up for a session with Kyle! Also, be sure to check out their FREE parenting guide!
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Hey there, friends. Do you ever feel like you and your spouse are playing two different games when it comes to discipline? I mean, one minute you're calm and coaching and the next minute your partner's just laying down the law. And then the kids? Well, they're left confused or, worse, they've now taken over and are in control. So getting on the same page with discipline isn't just kind of nice to have. It's actually essential for creating a united front and raising kids who are securely attached, respectful and emotionally healthy. When parents align on how to guide their children, home becomes a place of clarity and consistency, not chaos. Welcome back to the show, guys.
Speaker 1:I'm your host, jordan Langdon, and I am thrilled to welcome back Kyle and Sarah Wester to the Families of Character show.
Speaker 1:You might remember them from episode 123 called Transforming your Parenting Through Love, not Fear, guys. Kyle is a licensed professional counselor and former elementary school counselor with over 20 years of experience working with kids and, together with his beautiful wife, sarah, a parenting coach and fellow therapist, the two of them have really dedicated their lives to equipping families with the tools that they need to raise kids with confidence and compassion. These two are the heart behind the Art of Raising Humans, a counseling and coaching practice and a podcast where they unpack real, practical ways to parent without fear or shame. They're also parents of three and bring a wealth of lived experience both as professionals and as a real life mom and dad in the trenches. So today they are joining us to help couples align on one of the most important parts of parenting discipline. Because when we are united in how we guide our kids, we're not only giving them consistency, we're building trust, peace and teamwork into the heart of our homes. So welcome back to the show, kyle and Sarah.
Speaker 3:Hello, thank you, jordan.
Speaker 2:Hi, glad to be here.
Speaker 3:That was a great intro. You're right, that's exactly what we want to build. You know what I was thinking, right, when you were saying that. I was thinking when Sarah and I first were learning how to parent together in regards to this, and I remember at that time we'd already had some great training, we read some mini books and we were kind of on the same page, we thought.
Speaker 3:But there were these moments where I in particular would get triggered. At that time, our now 15-year-old was only three, maybe three or four, and her and I would just be butting heads. I would just revert back to what was done to me as a kid, which was a lot of fear and intimidation, a lot of yelling, and so I would be back there yelling and, and I remember, I would come into the living room and Sarah would be sitting. I remember this particular. She was sitting on the ground folding some laundry, which is like an endless job when you have little kids and she's in there doing that, and I remember Sarah looked at me with all the grace and compassion that she had to muster and she said you know, what you're doing is not what we would teach parents to do. I said, oh, oh, I know that, but this is happening, honey, I'm going to finish what I started. Later tonight I would love to talk to you about how I could do that better, but at this point the train has left the station, it's not going back, and so it was.
Speaker 3:I remember thinking, even as I went back in there and continued to use old tactics that I knew weren't necessarily effective or probably hurting my relationship with my daughter. Um, I knew I was going to come back, have a conversation with Sarah, we were going to brainstorm it and we were going to make a change into how to handle those moments. But in that moment I'm sure a lot of your parents can relate to this I just was seeing red. I just could not see another path. It's like she opposed me and I had to oppose her back. I had to win this battle.
Speaker 1:Yes, you chose the battle. You chose to die on the hill, about the frosted flakes or whatever right, yes. Well, one of the things that I notice is that, and even about your example, is that most of us as parents, when it comes to our kids' behavior, we are in this reactive mode. We have gotten ourselves sort of caught up in just reacting to their behaviors versus sort of lining with our spouse and coming up with a plan for how we are going to go about handling their behavior issues, which are inevitable, right, they are humans.
Speaker 1:They're learning how to navigate the world. They don't have this down and we should expect them to really screw up a lot.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:But when you're in that reactive mode it never bodes well and usually, like you said, one of us is looking at the other like, yeah, you're playing a different game here than I am. I would not do it like that. But at the same time we don't have time to discuss that right in the heat of the moment, so we're just going for it, and then life keeps happening in the heat of the moment, so we're just going for it, and then life keeps happening, and then you never get around to the conversation where you're intentionally kind of planning how are we going to go about this? What is it that we want to do so that our kids feel loved and not intimidated, but also know that there's some boundaries here? Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I think a lot of times when something's going on, even the frosted flakes, our brain somehow receives that as this is an emergency that I need to jump into right now and it starts running those scripts from your own. You know that programming from your childhood, from however you're interpreting this moment, and it's really, really hard. It is hard. It's not an easy task to go whoa, this is not the emergency, I think it is.
Speaker 2:I actually have a moment to move into intentionality and I think that's that like that, you know he's down this road, even though at that point we had kind of discussed the road we wanted to be on, but he was cruising down this old road and I'm like wait, wait, a second. But his brain was there and it's really hard to kind of stop that and pause long enough to go wait, what are we doing here? Cause that, that script in our head, it's so strong and it's so much work and it's daily work and even as far into it as we are, we still have moments where, like wait, wait, I'm operating from this belief system that was programmed into me and I need to rewire that and I need to put in that effort of where do I want to go Because it's not going to take me where I want to go.
Speaker 3:Well and I know you love sports, jordan, and so I love using a good sports metaphor of when Sarah says that and what I saw. My journey as a dad to try to change that reactivity is a great sports metaphor is like a basketball player or a football player that has a certain way of throwing the football or shooting the basketball. That, that's everything. If you grew up shooting the basketball a certain way, when push comes to shove every game, you're going to revert back to that. Unless you do what, unless you get coaching on intentionally how to change your form and how you shoot that, and you're going to need to practice that a lot. But even then, when you get into crunch time again, you're probably for a good season or so. You're still going to revert back to that old form, right, and you're going to shoot it Exactly. You're going to shoot it the way you had always practiced, because it is literally brain wiring.
Speaker 3:It is a physiological reaction that seems out of your control and to some extent it is so. When your kid says that or says no to you and then you react, it's because you as a kid got that same reaction from the adults around you and so your brain is like that's what you do when a four-year-old says, no, there's no other options. At least in your brain. There isn't any other options because you have been wired to see that moment as an emergency and I have to shoot the ball.
Speaker 3:And so I know in my own basketball career which was just like me, playing with friends is, I could have a great form playing with friends, but I have this one six-foot-six friend, and if that six-foot-six friend make some loud footsteps like he's coming, I immediately just chunk it up and I miss it and he's. He's nowhere near me, but just the fear of him getting close and pulling the ball out of my hands and making me look stupid, I shoot it up really quick. So it's the same way. That's exactly what was happening that day, and so really a key point is I've got to know and just own that that's just wiring. It's what was done to me, it's how parents reacted to me, and so I am going to repeat that, unless I'm intentionally practicing a different form, a different way to approach it.
Speaker 1:Such a great analogy that makes so much sense, and you're talking about kind of going back to your family of origin to figure out where your reactions are coming from, too is to say, where in my history does this behavior that I might have even surprised myself with towards my own child come from? Right, I think that's such an important conversation to have with your spouse. Say, hey, you know where does it come from for you, here's where it comes from for me. Okay, now let's figure out how we're going to reprogram, rewire our brain so that we are responsive in ways that are helpful for our kids, versus that reactivity that you know comes when we get stressed, when the pressure is on and somebody's putting a little pressure on us, like the basketball game. I love that.
Speaker 1:I want to return to, sarah, what you said, like just this idea that as parents, we feel like this behavior that our child just did is like an emergency and we have to do something now. Because here's what I'm hearing from especially grandparents who are observing their children raising kids. This is what they tell me, jordan, their kids are out of control. It's like the kids are running the show. The parents are so stressed that they just like ignore this bad behavior that's going on in the background. It ruins our family. Like get togethers because the kids are running amok and the parents are just like have abdicated their authority and are just like pour me another glass of wine because this is my vacation. I can't stand it Right. So there's a balance right between like Urgently reacting because you feel like, oh no, maybe we're in front of our parents, so I have to quickly like punish to, to stop the behavior, and the other end of the spectrum where it's like you know what, let kids be kids. I'm doing me and I I'm out, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, because, yeah, it it. The pause is to create intentionality, not to check out. The pause is not oh, this isn't an emergency, so I'm gonna head over here. It is to regroup and go. How can I intentionally create the boundaries, create the guidance, teach the skill that's needed? But it is not to just ignore. And that's a really big difference, because I think sometimes when we seek to do something different, maybe we go, okay, I'm not going to act, I'm not going to react, I'm not going to react. Then we just abandon everything because we don't know what to do.
Speaker 2:It's hard work, learning it.
Speaker 3:Well, and I'd say it's because, jordan, most of us have been taught to live in a dichotomous way, meaning there's just two pathways Either we are reacting and we're getting bigger and louder and we're controlling the kids, or the kids are just out of control, right, and those are the two options. And so that's where I think it's so helpful for your audience If they took a moment to grab a pen and paper, and I want, sarah and I want to walk through something that we do typically when we're coaching clients that the very first meeting we have, we want to give them an imagination of what it could look like. Because I really think, jordan, so many parents say to us you don't punish your kids and you don't reward them.
Speaker 3:And I say and I say to them I don't, because none of those would work in my marriage either and it doesn't work with my friendships either. So I want to give them a different imagination of what that could look like, where your kids are actually in control of themselves, they are actually self-disciplined instead of being controlled by you. So if they have that pen and paper, what I'd like them to do is just draw a line from the top to the bottom. So just draw a vertical line, and then draw a line from the left to the right. So basically that's going to be a big plus sign. And what we're going to do is kind of define what you just said that you're hearing from the grandparents Okay, cause it's good to give some words to it, because then we can understand maybe where we're at and then where we want to go.
Speaker 3:Okay. So if you put, at that top of that vertical line just put high expectations and at the bottom of the vertical line put low expectations, so that line there is going to be just assessing the expectations we have on our kids' behavior, right, and then on that horizontal line, far right I want to put high support, far left I want to put low support. So, once again, that's where Sarah and I are assessing what kind of support do our kids need in this moment? Maybe it's we need to be present, maybe it's our time, maybe it's money, maybe it's just emotion. Whatever it is right, we need to be able to see how are we supporting them through this. So if we could, we'll name them and just give a quick description. Okay, so in the bottom left, if you've got low support and low expectations, let's just title that neglectful.
Speaker 2:Now this one Makes sense.
Speaker 3:Huh, it should make sense.
Speaker 2:That makes sense, yeah, okay. So I love another word for this too, because sometimes I hear it like neglectful. A lot of parents will go. I'm not neglectful, but, um, I want to use also the word neglectful and uninvolved and I want to normalize this a little bit, that we, you'll find yourself in each of these little spot, these corners, at different times in life. So if you think, um, everything's going on, you're working, or your, your parents, are ill, um, you've got a lot going on, you might naturally, because of life and it getting in the way, be a little less involved a little checked out yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so maybe you're not as aware of what's going on in the day to day, moment by moment, of your child's life. So sometimes that happens and then some people just find themselves drifting into this because that's what was done to them, or that's how life was for them, and so they can tend to check out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so almost like dad would just come home and wouldn't be involved, and really he just watched TV, look on his phone, go to bed. So then the top-.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like leaving the kids to raise themselves, so to speak.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the top left would be high expectations, low support, and we'd call that authoritarian. So Top left would be high expectations, low support, and we'd call that authoritarian. So an example I like to give there is just the captain from the Sound of Music. Have you ever seen that old classic musical? I mean the captain, his kids love him and he loves his kids. He blows the whistle and the kids come when dad blows the whistle, but the kids don't come to dad when they have problems. They don't think dad's going to support them.
Speaker 3:It's very much kind of a military type approach. You do what I say, I expect you to be obedient, I expect compliance and pretty much, if you don't do that, if you don't reach my high expectations, I'm not going to support you. I'm just typically going to punish you. So I'm going to take things away, ground. You spank you, those kinds of things. So that's the authoritarian, where the parent has the control, they have the power and the kid's trying to get some of that power or freedom from that parent. But it really is about the parent controlling what they want that kid to do.
Speaker 2:So then the bottom right yeah, that one is that's high support. Ok, let's name it first Permissive parenting. That is that really high support, really low expectation. So if you look at the uninvolved, it's low expectation, low support. So, just kid, go out in the world and figure this thing out. But the permissive is I'm right there and I'm helping you, I'm giving you all this support, but then I don't really have boundaries. I'm not really asking much of you. I'm not really. It's the. I think, um, it's kind of the bad rap that general parenting is getting, which isn't really to me general parent, but you know where it's like.
Speaker 1:Oh, everything's chaos yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the mom is folding the clothes, even though she's asked the kids to do it 10 times and the kids are just running around, you know like worst case scenario in our minds.
Speaker 2:I think we've all can go there. That can be permissive parenting, and a lot of times you'll find yourself going oh well, I don't want to go here, I don't want to be too controlling and I don't know what else to do, so you find yourself falling back into permissive parenting, or you're just exhausted and spent and you might fall into that too. I'm tired. I've asked them so many times, I'm just going to do it myself, yeah tired. I've asked them so many times I'm just going to do it myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm going to go clean the room? Yes, which is a recipe for burnout?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, it's a recipe for burnout, and it's a recipe to raise an obnoxious child, because what happens is the kid learns and I learned as a kid how to cause my parents to jump back and forth between authoritarian and permissive right, because what kids will realize is oh, relationships are about power, so whoever has the power wins. So what I would do is every kid did this you ask your parent if you can buy that thing or get that thing when they're tired and stressed and spent, and then they're more likely to say yes, but you don't ask them when they seem really upset and irritated. And so kids start to learn how to use the skill of getting power and using it to get what you want, and a lot of parents only think those are the two options that jump back and forth. Either I'm controlling them or they're controlling me.
Speaker 2:I want to jump in and say it's also real common for couples for one to 10 to lean permissive and the other one to 10. And they almost further check because they're like, oh you're too much of this, so I need to lean more this way, or you're too easy on them, so I need to be extra hard on them. So I think that's also something we see that dynamic so often in couples and that's I mean we'll get back around to two. You know parenting together, but when you're on two different tracks you're kind of running opposite directions and you can imagine the confusion and all the things that causes in your family, the extra stress and all of those.
Speaker 3:Well, it's almost Jordan kind of what you described with those grandparents. That's what they're feeling is they're seeing like a lack of control, a lack of power being utilized, and they think, man, somebody needs to step in and control this right, as opposed to somebody needs to step in and teach everybody here how to control themselves. Right, because that would be the other option that none of us really saw as kids for the most part. Right. So we want to get to the top right. So the top right is high expectations. Sarah and I have very high expectations on ourselves and on our kids, but we have high support for ourselves and for our kids, and there's a lot of different words you could use for that, but just for this podcast, we'll call it loving guidance. Okay, so loving guidance is that top right to where? Now, what that looks like is similar to in my marriage. I hope your listeners can see this Marriage could be in any of these categories too, right?
Speaker 3:So, for instance, if I'm yelling at Sarah and Sarah doesn't like that, then she might just yell back at me and tell me not to yell at her, which that would be an authoritarian approach. She also may be neglectful and just be like, well, whatever, I don't really care, check out. She could be permissive and be like oh, kyle's had a bad day, I shouldn't have asked him about that. I kind of deserve it. Now, none of those in a marriage will we think are healthy. We would want Sarah to be up in that top right and to look at me and say hey, you seem really mad right now, but you don't need to yell at me to tell me that I'd like for us to talk in a calm way and if we can't do that now, let's take a break till we can. And so by her doing that, she's lovingly supporting me, setting boundaries with me. But it's the exact same thing I'd want to do with my kid, that if the kid is not reaching the expectation, then I want to find a way to support them, to help them reach that expectation.
Speaker 3:More thing I'd add is what's great about that top right? It has nothing to do with me using power or them using power against each other. Now, of course, as a parent, I do have authority per se or power over my kids, but that power was never given to me to use in opposition to them. I am not opposed to my child. I'm always for my child.
Speaker 3:So I want them to be safe and secure in knowing that dad and mom's power is there to help me, is there to guide me, and the reason why I want that is because, when they grow up, I want them to use their power in the same way for me to help me when I need help and guidance. I want them to be able to know their power doesn't need to be used in opposition to me and, I'm sure, every parent here. When they were kids, I felt that I felt the need to think of ways to use my power to get around things or talk my parents into stuff and all these ways that kids are labeled as being manipulative, but it's really just them saying this is the game, this is the dance is we use power to get the other person to do what we want, and so maybe I can't threaten you with force, but I can try to like somehow trick you to doing what I want you to do, right.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, that is part of child development, right? Their brains are developing and they're observing how this game is played out between the two of you as parents, and so they're jumping in and saying okay, if I recognize that they're they're splitting, you know, and they're on different wavelengths here, then I'm going to use that in order to get the outcome that I want and I always like to use that word get the outcome that I want, because they're not using it to you know, get at you and to you know, control you and cut you down.
Speaker 1:They are trying constantly to get the outcome that they want and we actually want them to develop that skill over time so that they can have healthy relationships, they can be successful in their, their jobs and their careers and they can impact people in a positive way. You use it for the good, so I think that's. Another thing to remember is that your kids aren't out to get you. They aren't little sociopaths, right?
Speaker 3:No, they're not little terrorists yeah, no, we've heard that said Jordan. You know, my kid's a little terrorist, and that's where, when you're in that top right, what's so beautiful about that is it's actually all in your control, meaning that instead of you controlling them, the focus is on what can I do to help guide that other person, whether it's my kid, my spouse, my friend, towards the outcome that I am wanting to happen. Right, so it's me coming open-handed and joining forces with them to co-create a different ending. It doesn't have to be me turning against you or me just surrendering to you. It's about us working together. So that's why I typically love parents on this four quadrant approach. I like them to think about where they land. Right and this is a big part of what we're talking about today is Sarah and I did this exercise.
Speaker 3:We assessed where we were. She definitely leaned more permissive in moments of stress. I leaned way more authoritarian, and so you could see how we were trying to somehow balance each other, because we thought that was the only two ways to do it. But once we learned of this other option, it was really cool to see how Sarah did it. Like the way Sarah supported was different than the way I would support. But yet we kept the same goal of hey, is that expectation healthy? Is that expectation realistic? If it is, how can I help them get there? How could you do that? And that's the beauty of us being different humans and different people is the way Sarah supports. I just can't do it the way she does it. Or if I try, it just looks weird. And in the same way, if she tried to do what I do, it just wouldn't look authentic, right, it would look fake.
Speaker 1:I love this, the four quadrant approach. I went to a talk from a parenting expert who did this very same exercise on a big whiteboard and I was like, yes. First of all, it validates that there are four different kind of parenting and discipline styles Right, and that you naturally lean towards one or the other based on how you were raised. And now, how can you take your differences in your upbringing and your personality and your temperament with your spouse and bring it together to that top right quadrant right?
Speaker 1:That authoritative, loving guidance, which will look much different for your kids than your upbringing looked for you. And one of the things I just want to underscore is this idea that you know that loving guidance, the parenting and the discipline from that perspective, is co-creating with your child. It's not this imbalance of power, it's not you being opposed to your child or your child being chronically afraid of you and living in this fear, but you're saying we are for you. There's going to be limits and boundaries and structure in place and there will be some natural consequences that you will experience because of your acting out or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but we are here to guide you, to love you through this and because of our wisdom and our years of experience, some of the things that we're going to say no to you're not going to like it. That's okay. We trust that we know what you need and we're doing this alongside you. So I do think that's a difference between the older generation too who's like? Man, somebody put the smack down on these people.
Speaker 3:They're running amok, they're messing up my house right.
Speaker 3:And it's a higher calling too. I mean, think about it. I know you have a faith-based audience. Yeah, it's really what God does with us. I mean, god is in that top right and that's where for Sarah and I, as people who faith is important to us is we want our kids not to be confused someday when they're told yeah, god is there to help you, god is there to support you. And, like for many Christians, when they grow up in the church, it's kind of confusing because they think God is there just to tell them what to do and if they don't do it, he's going to get mad at them, right, because that's what they saw model. We don't want that unhealthy interaction with God. We want them when God reaches out his hand and says, hey, can I co-create this life with you? The kid says, yeah, I want to do that.
Speaker 2:I love the beauty of um. It's really instead of this external control. You know I'm going to make you do this because you have to, or it's good for you, or whatever. It's really just um in my mind. I always imagine just coming alongside my child with my wisdom, with my experience with you know this guidance to build something with them, something that they're choosing into, that they have a say.
Speaker 2:Because I actually want my child you were saying this I want my child to know the control and power that they have.
Speaker 2:I actually want them to feel very empowered and I want to build that character inside of them. So they're making these choices, you know, if it's to be kind to my friend or to do my homework, whatever it is, I don't want them to feel like I'm only doing it because this is going to happen to me if I don't. I want them to choose that from a place of. This is who I am, this is how I show up in the world and I love that. When you parent this way, when you come alongside your child and build those skills and build that character with them, they're then choosing those things and the older they get, the more you're stepping further away from that and you really want to see that in them. But if you've always been controlling, then it's always come from the external, and the only reason I go to work and I do a good job is because I'm going to get a paycheck. Otherwise I'm going to get written up Exactly.
Speaker 2:What is the world if we're all that way, versus I'm going to show up and do a great job and be kind to my neighbor and or what you know? Whatever, it is because of something inside of me that I am choosing, and so I love how this does that with your children. It's really beautiful to watch and, as we've been doing it for so long now in our children and with other families, yeah, If I can give a practical example for all your listeners.
Speaker 3:Um, there was a time as I was trying to do this. The kids are very little. So our son, who's almost 13, he had just been born and we had gone to church that morning and our pastor was speaking about the fruit of the spirit being peace. And I remember just thinking, man, we've got such a peaceful home, Our home is so great. And I remember we come home that day and as Sarah was breastfeeding our son, I remember our daughter just freaked out. She was probably like three and a half at that age and she freaks out and tries to like almost drag her brother off of mom and mom and I was like what is happening? Where is the peace that we had?
Speaker 3:So I didn't know what to do, but I was like I need to support her through this. So I pick her up, I bring her back to our back bedroom and I knew the goal was to help her regulate this feeling. We needed to get to a space where she could manage whatever she was feeling and be able to communicate that in a healthier way. So, as I'm back there and I'm just like trying to talk to her, it's not working, George, it's just like ramping it up. So I just shut up and I just start to pray and I just start to ask God to help me and guide me, because I'm dad, what are you doing? And I said, honey, I'm just praying because I have no idea how to help you right now.
Speaker 3:And as it got kind of quiet, then I looked at her and I said why are you so mad? And she said I don't know, dad. And like the tears started falling down her face and something in my heart said it's called jealousy. She's never experienced it before. And immediately I was flooded with all the memories of feeling jealous in my life and how hard that was to regulate that emotion.
Speaker 3:And so I just sat with her and held her while she cried and then, by the time we were done, we were able to say, hey, what is it you were wanting? And she was able to communicate how she isn't getting as much time with mom because brother's taking up so much time, and like she really just wanted to be like let's go back and ask mom for some time today, but we don't need to rip brother off of mom, Right? But that's an example of where I had this high expectation, Like we're not ripping anybody off anybody, we're not. We're not going to aggressively demand, but I am going to help you regulate that emotion and then communicate what you want so we can help support you getting that.
Speaker 2:There was a legitimate need there and it was. You know, we could have just been like, oh, you need to be punished for that behavior. But really we needed to get to the heart of it, what's going on, and we needed to help her have that inner awareness, because she didn't have it. She didn't know what that was, but to be able to explore that with her so she could give voice to it. Then we could help her learn how to meet that need in a healthier way, in a more helpful way, and so I just love how that builds that internal awareness. What's going on inside of me? What do I need right now? What do I want and how can I get that? How can I achieve that in a way that helps everybody in the family?
Speaker 3:Well and Jordan. When I told that story to a good friend of mine at that time, he said no-transcript. I actually got to because of this approach. I got to model what God has done to me hundreds of times and that, at its core, is what discipline is. It's discipleship and that's where God had been discipling me, and in that moment I discipled my daughter on how to control herself and then communicate her needs in a way that was healthy instead of hurtful.
Speaker 1:This is godly parenting folks, if you're listening. This is it right. We are to be a model of Christ to our children. When we talk about loving our neighbor, the closest person to us, the closest neighbor we have, is number one our spouse. Right, how would we treat them?
Speaker 1:And then our children. So I love this idea of this loving guidance, the top right quadrant of the formula here for really just treating people like you want to be treated. And I want to underscore in that example, kyle, when you talked about, you know, your daughter just kind of like having a tantrum when her new baby brother is getting all the attention from mom is that I believe the first beautiful grace that God gave you in that moment was just this insight and awareness that you yourself were kind of ramping up and that prayer just pausing to pray and pray out loud in front of your kid right Gets you in the moment where you're going okay, I need to calm down here and it's also kind of like shocking her out of her thing where she's going dad.
Speaker 3:She was super confused, Like what are you doing? Why are you not yelling at me? Or why are you not? Yeah, she's like. Why is he like muttering to himself Like a crazy person?
Speaker 1:Right, and then moving through, like you said, sarah, getting to the heart of the matter. I, when you said, man, I, we could have just punished her right away. Listen, you need to go to timeout right now.
Speaker 2:This is your brother.
Speaker 1:He deserves blah, blah, blah. Right, you could rip off a whole bunch of just reactive things.
Speaker 3:Shame them all that stuff yeah.
Speaker 1:It's the bandaid approach. It never works. It's the short-term hack. What you are talking about with this way of of disciplining and loving and guiding your kids, it's the short-term hack. What you are talking about with this way of disciplining and loving and guiding your kids, it's the long game. Yes, it takes five minutes longer than sending them off to their room where they're isolated and feeling even worse about themselves in the timeout. It's going to take you five more minutes, but it's going to drastically change their behavior and increase the unity and the relationship and empower them to have control, be able to regulate their emotions and then operate from a place of love right.
Speaker 3:And even that brings it full back around to what we started with is. You know, we see, all of these part of that top right quadrant is seeing conflict as not something to be scared of or avoided, but it's an opportunity for one of two things Either it's going to push us further away or it's going to bring us closer together. And so when you're in that top right quadrant, I saw this moment as a moment. I don't understand what's happening to her and she doesn't understand what's happening to her. And so, through what happened there, not only did her and I grow closer, but then I was able to talk to Sarah about that moment, and it drew us closer as well, cause we were like, yeah, we really haven't been like she's been somewhat neglected, a little bit Like you mean so much to her honey, and I know the new baby's taking a lot of time, but let me find ways to take him and be with him while you be with her. And it was like, oh, it was so cool, and that's to me what the family of God does. That's what the family of God is.
Speaker 3:It isn't. There's a conflict. Go away until you clean yourself up. It's hey, I'm the one who you need help from, so why would you go away from me? Let me help you, because I seriously have never felt God do that to me. Every time I've been in distress, I felt him say draw closer, come closer to me. The closer you are to me, the more I can help you. And that, to me, is exactly what I want to see our kids, I want them to feel that modeled, see it modeled, so when they are away from us, like Sarah said, they naturally move on, they know they're not alone and they know how to ask for help when they need it, from not only us, but their friends, from God.
Speaker 1:This is bringing up something big for me. Okay, as you're talking about this, it brings up this idea that I think a lot of parents really don't trust that they are the person that their child needs to learn how to regulate their emotions, to learn how to treat other people Right, and and oftentimes I found being a therapist for 20 years that parents would run their kids into the therapy office and say you, you fix them.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:I do not have what it takes. I don't know. There's something going on with this child and they even look at you like good luck with this one. It's a totally different animal.
Speaker 3:It's a doozy. You've never seen this before.
Speaker 1:And you assess the child and you're like, oh, they're just lovely and just like every other child that's nine and going through this transition of school and friends and all this stuff, Right. And so I just want to underscore the fact that, guys, if you're listening, God chose you very specifically to be the parent to your child, not a perfect parent, but to be a loving, empowering parent that your children feel safe coming to when they're in distress, when they can't figure out how to regulate these big emotions. They don't even know what's going on to call them an emotion. They're just in their feelings that we really do have the capacity to slow down, take a breath, recenter ourselves, Like you said, Sarah, at the beginning. Recenter ourselves. Like you said, Sarah, at the beginning, this is not an emergency. We do not have to quick knee jerk. You know discipline, but we can take a moment and figure out what is underneath here.
Speaker 1:Let me help you figure out what is what is happening underneath the surface here that would instigate this sort of reaction from you, and let's, let's heal that Right, instigate this sort of reaction from you and let's, let's heal that Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I love that you said you don't have to be a perfect parent and and I and I love too that children want their parent, they want that close relationship. So where you feel like I'm not good enough or I, you know we get all these messages in our head as parents the guilt, the shame. All the places we know we're failing and those can take the thing can kind of go under the spotlight for us. And that's just not true. You were all learning and growing and we actually want our children to see that we're learning and growing because they're learning and growing and so we can say look, you know what I messed up and I'm not perfect, but I'm going to keep learning and growing. You know what I messed up and I'm not perfect, but I'm going to keep learning and growing.
Speaker 2:Yep yep and when you show up and you model that to them, they want you there. They want you. You're the person for them and even if you don't know the magic words or the perfect thing, if you're just with them, just be present, with your attention and your care and a listening ear sometimes. Sometimes that you're, you're definitely in those parenting moments.
Speaker 2:You're like I don't know, and that's okay, we're all there and we can circle back around, and we can circle back around, and we can circle back around. Just know, if anything, just be there, because your child does need you.
Speaker 3:Well, and I'd add to that that you are the parent for that child and that child is the child for you, that child. I think all three of our kids have transformed us in ways I never expected, each one in different ways, and I can see how they were exactly the kid I needed to become, the man I asked God to create me into. And that's where it's really cool. Once you're co-creating with the kid, you realize that you are there to disciple them, but in some they're there to disciple you, because there's a lot of ways we as adults have been kind of messed up. We have learned some toxic, unhealthy habits that they have not yet learned.
Speaker 3:And the kids to me, jordan, they forgive quicker. They're more apt to let go of bitterness and hurt than I am, and it's so beautiful to watch how quick they want to love me back when I've screwed up and if I'm willing to receive that. I mean I know from being an elementary school counselor the best teachers are the best learners. Is that that's really helpful too? To have that? That top right corner is about being a great learner and just being open to saying what is the support they need, and they're going to teach me how to become a better human when I engage that.
Speaker 1:So good, so so good, yes, and I think that top right corner really being humble as a parent right, acknowledging our failures, coming to our kids with our tail between our legs and going oh man, will you please forgive me? I just blew up back there at that stoplight and I had no business yelling at you like that. Can you forgive me, right? Because we're going to rupture these relationships with our kids. They're going to rupture with us. We can't take it so personally. Get, get full of shame and then think again well, I can't do this. I've got to, you know, get. Get somebody from the outside to take over this parenting. Or we don't want our kids to feel full of shame that they've screwed up, but it's just this constant ability to repair the relationship through humility, showing up for them. That's different than these other quadrants where you would say oh no, I don't apologize. You do this because I'm the parent I said so. I don't owe you an explanation. There's never going to be an apology from me, right?
Speaker 3:Well, because you said the humility you talked about, they couldn't do that because it'd be like letting go of the power. And there is was this fear. If I say that, then they will now use that against me or somehow they're going to think they won. And so there was this fear to do that and I think that is a beautiful part. That's so freeing for the kids, that we get to help. The families we help is when parents do that. You will see those kids just like, respect them even more because they're like, wow, they're able to really own it and take responsibility and think about your modeling.
Speaker 3:You're taking responsibility for your own actions and like you want them to someday. You know you want them to ask for forgiveness. Like all those moments are awesome for you to oh, this is how you do it this is what happens when I make a mistake.
Speaker 2:Okay, I can own it. That's okay to do that. I can be humble, I can go and repair. How do I do that? Oh, I see how you're doing it. Now I know how to do it.
Speaker 1:I mean everything you're, you're, we're laying out. There is just that how we learn and grow and repair and do relationship with people. Yeah, yeah, yes, oh, my goodness. So I have a question, because I have not met your three children yet, although I keep inviting Sarah and Kyle to Denver to sit on my back patio, bring their kids and let's just, you know, visit and meet in real life.
Speaker 1:But, what types of feedback do people out in the community give you about your own children? Because I would guess that there's something a little bit different about your three kids because you have, you know, adopted this, this style of of parenting. Yeah, what? What are some things that people say when they engage your kids or maybe meet your kids for the first time that they notice about them?
Speaker 3:Well, I guess the thing I would add I'm we were always curious, anytime, like my parents. You know, watch my kids right and they were off doing. I'll just ask my mom. I'll say mom, what did you, what did you notice is different about the kids right? And what my mom will say all the time. She's like Kyle, when I was raising you and your brother and sister, it was mostly just trying to keep you guys from getting mad at each other, you know, constantly trying to stop conflicts from happening. And she's like your kids they look out for each other the whole time. They're helping each other. She's like I never have to put out any conflict because they talk about it, they discuss it. That's a big deal to us is they resolve conflict together?
Speaker 2:They have plenty of conflict.
Speaker 3:They do. They have conflict, yes, but they resolve it and she doesn't have to jump in and feel like she's got to point fingers about know, point fingers about who did what you know. They will resolve it, they will talk it out and she's like, just in general, they're just for each other, they're not at each other's throat, they're not against each other. So that's, that's a really beautiful part that I always love to just get my mom's perspective, because obviously that they know that we parent differently than my parents parented, and so it's neat for them to see how the skills, the tools, the knowledge we have has helped us change the legacy in our family this way.
Speaker 1:I bet that is a really rewarding thing for your parents to see that oh, we know we might've messed up in some areas and we wish we could go back and do it different. But look at our kids doing it different, breaking that cycle, and then being able to see the fruits of their grandchildren growing up, being able to resolve conflict between them without having interference, you know, from the parents or engagement, and then also just for your kids to be able to repair relationships and ask for forgiveness instead of having the referee Like what a beautiful gift for them. That's awesome.
Speaker 2:I think, a couple of things that come to mind. People will be surprised at how well they make eye contact and engage in conversation, even with adults, kind of the way that they feel like they can show up and have meaningful conversation with all kinds of ages and that they have something to contribute. You know so I wasn't even set out necessarily to do that, it's just something that people will comment on and you know, as a parent you just kind of pause and go oh yeah, that's kind of. You know it's like what else is going to happen.
Speaker 2:And then another one I think actually comes more from when my children talk to other children and it's oh, you still do school, but what do you mean? You're not going to get grounded if you don't? And that my children still choose to do things without something hovering over them as a threat, without that motivation of fear. And it's more that other kids who aren't used to that are surprised that my kids are still choosing these things on their own and it's very, for some of them, very foreign because that's not what they're used to, that's not how life is for them. And so that's always interesting feedback to hear the surprise in other children that you know it's like. What do you mean?
Speaker 3:You're still doing this, even though you won't get your phone taken away, or something you know that they're choosing these things on their own.
Speaker 1:I could see how your kids would be like this. This is how you are. You even, sarah, when you're talking, kyle's looking at you, he's making eye contact with the side of your head, actually, right, but you guys are attentive, you're not distracted, you are genuinely engaged in what's happening in the moment. And our kids pick up on this. They are constantly observing us and they are like little mini-me's running around, right, and so I think also what I'm hearing in your message today is that you know it's okay to work on ourselves. Still, it's actually necessary for us to constantly be growing as husband and wife and be growing in our own responses to things that come up in our lives and to be consistent with those responses at the workplace, at church, at home, so that our kids do see, oh, this is possible. If I'm not there yet, I can continue to watch how mom and dad resolve issues between the two of them, how dad responds to something that blew up with his practice or whatever, and then it's just this constant modeling for them.
Speaker 2:It's a lifelong journey right. It's a lifelong journey to always be growing.
Speaker 3:I hope your listeners hear that too. The problem with the other three, besides what we've already said, is the other three are not sustainable for a lifetime. The other three, like many parents, will come to us too for coaching as their kids are switching from being a teenager into adulthood and they don't have the tools on how to relate to their kid as an adult. And that's the problem is because now, all of a sudden, they don't have the power they don't feel like they can threaten anymore and now they're at a loss because they still think that's their job to control the kid's behavior. But, man, I tell them, if you could start this so much sooner if the listeners who have the younger kids if you can start that at an earlier age, the sooner we let go of that and just begin to do it with them.
Speaker 3:That is the lifelong journey. We never have to become an isolated family who's disengaged from each other, but we're constantly using conflict as a way to grow closer, because that's what we want to do with them the rest of their lives and that's what we want to do with our marriage. And I hope your listeners hear that it isn't us doing it perfect, it's us knowing what to do when we mess up. That will not only draw us closer to our kids, but draw us closer as a couple. And so I look at my kids and all the challenges we've had in raising them, as any parent does, and I love Sarah more because of those challenges and she loves me more because of those challenges, because we have chosen to embrace that these are all opportunities for us to transform into the husband and wife and the mom and dad, the man and woman that we wanted God to create us into.
Speaker 1:I love this. So if you're listening, parents, I just want you to recognize that Kyle and Sarah are saying like these, these behavior outbursts, these issues that you're having with your kids, they're not obstacles, they're opportunities. They're opportunities to grow closer in love to one another as parents. Sometimes you're holding your wife's hand or your husband's hand and you're going just come on, girl, we got to be on the same page here. Come on, boy, do not like love him. Take a deep breath. This moment's going to pass, right, but it's not. Doesn't have to be the breakdown of the family because you have somebody who's tantruming or you have kind of a choleric type child that you're raising right. It can be an opportunity to grow in love towards one another and with your child. So tell us a little bit about kind of the ideal couple that would enter into coaching for you. What might a parent or a couple be going through that would indicate, hey, maybe we could use some guidance from Kyle and Sarah with their coaching?
Speaker 3:Well, it's exactly like you already started, jordan. It's a couple that passionately wants to change the legacy that they are saying listen, hey, we appreciate what our parents did for us, but we think it can be done better. We just confused what that looks like because we have no imagination of what that could be like, and so typically the ideal that comes to us is they're wanting to get on the same page. The husband and wife are both coming at it differently, which they will, because they're just different people and they're like how can we create a unified vision for our family where we're able to actually create a family that's connected, cohesive, healthy and we've learned these skills? Like by the time they leave our house at 18, we have mastered these things with them, so we create this healthy, close relationship for the rest of their life.
Speaker 3:So when those couples come to us, that is so fun, because it is so fun to watch them grab the skills that we'll teach them and then implement them. And then it's cool to see the kids grab the skills that we'll teach them and then implement them. And then it's cool to see the kids grab the skill too, and then they start doing it with their siblings, and now the siblings are getting along, so we love to coach families that are in that space. They're like. I just want to change the legacy. I don't want to have a disconnected, isolated family. I don't want us going into separate rooms on our iPads or TVs. I want us coming together, building memories and a deep hearted connection, and so we love when those families come to us and if they want to do that, I'd love for them to reach out to me at Kyle at artofraisinghumanscom, and I'd love to set up a short call with them and we'll talk about them if they're a right fit for the program, and it's just great to be able to walk them through that.
Speaker 1:Awesome, so good. That's Kyle at artofraisinghumanscom. And listen, if you've been hanging with us this entire time and you are now sort of like consciously aware that, oh, I've been doing this in a way that isn't supportive and isn't helpful to my spouse or my kids, this is good. This is good news. The veil has been torn. You are becoming aware of something that's not working.
Speaker 1:But let me tell you this one podcast episode is not enough. Just the awareness is not enough to make change. So I don't see Kyle and Sarah as a competition for families of character and I'm going, guys, I'm not going to advertise their services. I'm saying, if this is you and you want to change and you aren't sure how to take the first steps and you need some accountability to show up like a week later and say here's what we tried and here's how it went, I'm encouraging you to sign up, to sign up for the free consultation, to find out if this is a fit for you. Reach out to Kyle and Sarah at theartofraisinghumanscom and they will. They will hook you up, they will take care of you. I'm sure of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we'll take it from point A to point B, so by the time that they're done, they will know and have the skills they need to transform the family the way they want to. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I love it. I would love to have a couple who hears this on our show go through your coaching and then come back on the show and talk about that.
Speaker 3:Wouldn't that be cool to see the transformation? Yes, yeah, that would be great.
Speaker 1:So good, so good. So, guys, also tune into the art of raising humans podcast. This is a great podcast. It's free information again. Free parenting, free coaching, that you can just put your earbuds in, grab a cup of coffee, do the laundry, walk around the block, take in some, some good advice from Kyle and Sarah over in Tulsa, oklahoma. So, guys, thanks for joining us again. This has been such a pleasure and we will keep you in our prayers that you can continue to provide this amazing support for so many families really across the nation, because you can do this virtually right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, and Jordan, we want to say thank you for having us on, but also thank you for all the work you do as well. I mean we need as many people as possible helping parents know and feel encouraged and equipped on how to raise kids that are able to change this world in a positive way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Amen to that. Folks, I'm going to catch you on another episode of the Families of Character show real soon. In the meantime, stay hopeful. There's always an opportunity for change when you are an intentional parent, thinking about what you're doing, what's working, what's not working. Hope is on the horizon and there's always opportunities for growth. So tune in to another episode of our show and also, please share this with as many people in your network as you can. Text it out, send it in an email to people. That will help us reach more and more families across the globe. Thanks for tuning in.
