The Families of Character Show
We serve parents who want more for their family. Our show offers research-based parenting solutions to the most common family problems, real-life parenting stories, and authentic support. The host, Jordan Langdon, is a wife, mother, and Licensed Clinical Social Worker who validates what parents go through and offers practical actionable steps parents can implement today to transform their families in joy and unity. Guests are experts in their field of work and provide high-value material for parents and families.
The Families of Character Show
Ep. #170: How to Protect Your Child from Sexual Abuse featuring Attachment Nerd {Rebroadcast}
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What terrifies parents more than anything? The thought of their child experiencing sexual abuse. Yet this fear often prevents the very conversations that could protect our children. In this powerful episode, attachment specialist Eli Harwood joins Jordan to share essential strategies for preventing and responding to childhood sexual abuse.
This episode goes over:
• Using anatomically correct language for all body parts from infancy to normalize discussions about bodies
• Teaching body safety rules to children around ages 2.5-3
• Believing children when they disclose abuse and reassuring them they will be protected
• Building secure attachment as your strongest protection against abuse by creating open communication
• Practicing "cooperative" rather than "compliant" parenting so children feel safe defying inappropriate authority
• Continuing regular check-ins about body safety throughout childhood
Visit Eli's website for free resources and check out her Instagram @attachmentnerd for thoughtful takes on parenting and creating strong attachments with your children!
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Welcome back parents. Listen, I don't know about you, but one of the most terrifying things to me as a parent is the idea that one of my kids might experience sexual abuse of some nature in their lifetime, and I know from personal experience as a young child just how prevalent it is and how easily it can happen, even in the presence of your own parents. I had a very close encounter as a nine-year-old girl when I was at a hotel with my entire family, my two siblings, my parents. We were leaving the hotel and my parents were up in the hotel room getting the luggage packed. My brother and sister had just left the parking lot to go back up into the room and I was still in the parking lot putting my bag in the back of the van and all of a sudden this man pulls up in a nice vehicle. He was dressed in a suit and he called out to me from the back of the van and just said hey, I'm looking for this business and I'm not from here. And he stretched a map across his lap out the window and invited me over to help him kind of navigate where he was going.
Speaker 1:Well, as a young girl I was thinking oh, somebody's asking my opinion. You know I might be able to help them and because he looked like a reputable businessman, like almost like my grandpa, I thought this could be safe. So I approached the car and as I did he collapsed the map and I quickly saw that he was exposing himself to me and he whispered to me. I had a couple young girls your age like this last night and I turned on my heel and ran as fast as I could back to my hotel room. So I escaped that. He drove away quickly. I was able to kind of recognize what the car looked like, but had no idea what his license plate looked like. We were in a different state, it was unfamiliar territory for me, but what a blessing that nothing happened to me.
Speaker 1:So this is kind of a topic that's near and dear to my heart, my heart and I wanted to bring on the show an expert, someone who has been in the field for a good amount of time and has really taken initiative, to talk to parents about how to, number one, prevent sexual abuse in their kids, but also what to do if it does end up happening. So welcome to the show, Eli Harwood. Thank you, Jordan. Love to be here with you, so glad to have you. This is a topic that we haven't had on our show yet, and it's something so necessary, and so I just wanted to know, from your perspective, what interests you about sexual abuse and attachment and trauma.
Speaker 2:So I come from a family where, if you were to put up a Christmas tree and the ornaments were going to represent my family's story, there would be a lot of ornaments on that tree that were around addiction. There'd be a lot of ornaments on that tree that would be around mental illness and there would be a lot of ornaments on that tree around abuse and, specifically, sexual abuse. So I am a product of many, many, many, many different experiences of abuse and trauma that were very unresolved. And so I came into the world, really under my mother's leadership. Around the time that I was nine years old, she made a decision to really shift the security in our family and went and got help for herself and in doing that, really shifted the trajectory of my life and our lives. But we still had a lot of familial baggage to unpack. So I spent a lot of my teens and twenties unpacking my family's baggage, and not a small amount of it was related to childhood sexual abuse Wow. So that is kind of where my personal life became my professional life.
Speaker 2:I eventually decided I think I'm going to be a shrink. I think that's what I'm going to do, and so I went to graduate school and became a counselor and then, for the last 17 years, I've been working with individuals and families healing trauma, helping people learn how to develop secure attachment within themselves and within their relationships, especially with their children, in order to help prevent the transmission ongoing of generational trauma. In that there are a few different things that families encounter that are challenging to overcome, but I'm not sure that any of them are as challenging as childhood sexual abuse or as common. So and I so I'm going to we're going to really dig in today to what can you do as a parent to help prevent abuse in the life of your child, and what do you do to help heal or respond to a child that has experienced it, and what can you do if this is a part of your story and your journey?
Speaker 2:I really am such a therapist and I'm sure that you are this way too, but when you were telling your story and you said, I'm so blessed nothing happened. What I thought was something happened. That's true. You actually were sexually abused. He was not able to physically touch you and I'm glad for that, for you, and I'm glad you're able to run away, but you actually were exposed Like that's exhibitionism. He did abuse you.
Speaker 1:You're right and you know what. What happened when I was telling that story? I've never talked about that on the air, right? I've told friends and you know this has been something that I've discussed with my own children, but I could feel the tremor happen inside and even afterwards. I was planning to introduce you, I was going to give your bio and I skipped over it because it affected me in just recounting it out loud. Yes, how many years later, almost 40 years later?
Speaker 2:Right, right, and yet it still has an impact. I mean, that was a deeply impactful experience, and that person was very unwell and they were looking for someone to overpower. That's what that was about, right, and to shock you, he knew exactly how to do it in a way, to get you into the most innocent childlike state in order to then create disgust on your face, which is part of his demented situation that he's never resolved. But that experience, though not as maybe foundational and formational as someone who's, like, ritualistically molested or raped over periods of years, it still had a significant impact.
Speaker 2:So, one question I have for you is did you go tell your parents?
Speaker 1:So I ran right up to the room, into the bathroom, locked the door, sat down in there and just was in shock.
Speaker 1:And my parents are like loading up the stuff. They're like what are you doing in there? Come out, we've got to go. Like come on, they had no idea. And so they're thinking that this is, you know, this is just my annoying child. Yes, totally. And so it wasn't until I believe it was like later in the day, when I was clinging to my brother as we're walking through the mall and he's like what is your deal? He's three years older than me and he's like you never care to be by my side, especially in the shopping mall. You know that I was like something happened.
Speaker 1:This guy, you know, and I remember, as I was saying, telling him what had happened and kind of recounting each step. It was just like very robotic, like he did this and then this, and then this happened. And then, you know. So my parents were like well, what did he look like? Well, what did the car look like? And I had an image of it, but I actually don't even remember what we did about it or if they did anything about it or if they could have.
Speaker 2:you know, they may have felt like they couldn't right at that time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we were from out of town and we were going back home, traveling across the state, and so it was just kind of like, oh, I'm glad nothing happened.
Speaker 2:And I was thinking I wonder if the I'm glad nothing happened came from your parents, right, so they helped you process that trauma through the lens of nothing happened to you as opposed to. I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Speaker 1:Yes, I don't know. I think that's interesting, right Totally.
Speaker 2:And I know a lot of survivors who compare their trauma to other people and say, well, at least it wasn't this, or at least, yeah, sure I was abused, but at least it wasn't my father.
Speaker 2:I know someone whose father abused them or um yeah, well, they touched this part of me, but at least they didn't touch that part of me. Yes, you know, I would argue sexual abuse can happen with a leer, with a look Like. It can happen very subtly and in ways that make us question whether or not we actually did experience something that was that yucky and violating. And even in your story, like you, were exposed, like a grown man exposed himself to you, right, um, and there's still that thing. I'm so blessed that's what you said. I'm so blessed that nothing happened.
Speaker 1:And all.
Speaker 2:I could think about was nine-year-old Jordan, and just like I'm so sorry, honey, I'm so sorry that was. That was really yucky and confusing and scary. Lori, that was. That was really yucky and confusing and scary.
Speaker 1:You're so right. You're so right and the perspective is so different, you know, and actually it feels better to hear you say that, like something happened, yeah.
Speaker 2:Cause that aligns with what your body knows. Your body knows that truth.
Speaker 1:Yes, talk about that a little bit. How, how kids process, you know just just what happened and then the language around that and and the the contradiction between what feels like violation and then what, what we tell ourselves about that.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, this is like going to be a five hour conversation. Well, let me start by saying this when, when we think about preventing sexual abuse, I want you all to hold into your heads two facts. One fact is we are not in control of what happens to our children. So your parents didn't fail by letting a nine-year-old be down at the car, putting her bag in the car. In fact, that was like a great step of developing independence and competency in the world. Like nine-year-olds need chances to be independent in spaces like that, it was not a failure on your parents' part that they weren't watching you every second of the day, right? So I say that because I think once we start talking about this subject, it can it can really activate us into an anxiety state where we feel like we must watch constantly, 24, seven, and that a good parent would never let that happen to their kid. Um, we don't always have that privilege or power and our kids do rely on other people, other adults, um, in their world. And your story actually is fairly unique in that it was a stranger.
Speaker 2:Most sexual abuse happens at the hands of people we know and trust, so when we. So that's fact one. So fact one is we're not we're not in control of what's happening to our children. And and fact two is that how we engage this topic with our children can help to empower them and can help to signal to other adults in their world that we are not the people they want to be targeting. Okay, while we cannot control it and we cannot with a hundred percent say I'm going to do all these things and therefore my child will never experience sexual trauma, we can set our children up to be resilient towards any potential attempts or actual victimizations, and we can create a relationship where our children can then come to us and process that and let us know. So that's what we're going to focus on today. And when you talked about language, that's our first step. So as soon as our babies are out of the gate, we can start using anatomically correct language to describe all of their body parts. Oh, yes.
Speaker 2:Eyes or eyes, mouths or mouths, ears or ears, noses or noses, vulvas or vulvas. Vulvas have a vaginal entrance, but it's a vulva, there's a penis, there are testicles and there is an anus and a poop comes out of our anus and and these words are not dirty, they are not wrong and they are not sexual, and people often get confused by this like no, no, those are sexual body parts. No, those are body parts. Yes, in fact, the penis and the vulva do far more urinating than they do anything else right way more so in that way they're far more about our liver and cleaning out toxins than they are about sexuality. Our most sexual body part is our brain. So sexuality stems from arousal in the brain, and arousal in the brain affects other body parts and a lot of sexual engagement happens in the context of genitals, but it also happens in the context of faces. Parts are not sexual until the brain engages in a sexually developed, mature place. So until puberty, until we begin to have some level of sexuality, developing body parts are not sexual at all.
Speaker 2:And I say that to help everyone out there who feels really uncomfortable saying anus, cause I still do. Even saying it now it feels like it should be bleeped out, because it wasn't language. My mom was a little bit ahead of the curve and so we weren't allowed to say boob, we said breast, we said penis, we said vagina, and what she knew was that what Mr Rogers says so succinctly what is mentionable is manageable. So if our children do not feel comfort talking about body parts that are usually targeted and sexual abuse, how can they possibly bring it up to us? We're wanting to give them the type of vernacular that makes it easy to talk about what's going on. We also do it because it signals to predators that these are children that are having conversations with the grownups in their world about uncomfortable topics. So this is a child that is likely to say something Great. It also makes it more likely that criminal charges will be successfully turned into criminal verdicts.
Speaker 2:So, if a child is testifying about sexual abuse and they say and then this person touched my cookie? There's a famous case where this is what the child said Well, there's reasonable doubt and you can't you cannot, as a jury, convict someone of a crime when there's reasonable doubt, right. And so we want to empower our children to talk about all parts of their body without shame, and this is also helping them develop healthy sexuality later on. You know there's the problem of our children being sexualized and sexually abused too early. But there's also the problem of our children feeling such immense shame about sexuality that well into their marriages they still feel dirty when they engage their partner in sex. Right. So we want our children to be sexually free and sexually well, which means that early on we are sending the message there is nothing wrong, there's nothing shameful, there's nothing embarrassing about these body parts in particular.
Speaker 1:Right. So that's step one Language. It's all about the language. Call it what it is people.
Speaker 2:Anatomically correct words, yes, and if you are not comfortable with those words, just maybe practice it in your bathroom. I mean, I know this sounds hilarious, but literally sit in your bathroom and go penis testicles and laugh a little and get a little uncomfortable and then you find yourself like I can say toe, I can say testicle, just a body part, it's a body part.
Speaker 1:Eli, I have to admit, when my son was young he was probably eight or nine we were having these talks with him and he would get so red faced about the word penis or vagina, and so we had this thing where we said he was rolling around on the floor in the living room and we're like, say it three times, three times, it was almost like we were the living room and we're like, say it three times, three times, it was almost like we were torturing him because we're like we're trying to kind of desensitize him to this language. And he laughed and he said it, and he laughed and he said it and he laughed and he said it Now it's, it's fine, yes, right, he's, he's comfortable, he's familiar.
Speaker 2:That understand that. Yeah, oh, that's, it's just what we call it. Totally, it's not a bad word. Yes, not a bad word. These are not bad words, these are not dirty words. Okay, so that's your step one. Okay, step two ideally around the age of two and a half or three, you start to teach body safety rules, and body safety rules really help your children process that.
Speaker 2:There's this other category of touch that's different, but that's also still hurtful. So kids by that age already know we don't bite, we don't kick, we don't hit, we don't punch. They already know all those things. In addition to that, we don't touch or look at or ask to look at or expose parts of our bodies that belong under our swimsuits to people outside of our, of our family unit. So, and the reason for that is those parts can get hurt really easily, which is true, I mean, on multiple levels infections, urinary tract infections. All those parts have more tender skin. They could get injured more easily.
Speaker 2:You know, you've ever, if you're a boy, and you've ever, been kicked where it counts, in the penis? It's really high nerve, um, bundled right. So there's lots of nerves in those areas, so pain comes more readily. So we're, we're helping them understand those are just off limit places and we want to really empower them to do that. You know, the other night event I was, I was like playing with one of my three and a half year olds and I kind of went and like did like a butt pinchy thing, that's like such a parent thing.
Speaker 2:You just they're so cute and you just want to pinch their butt and she goes mom, that's my private part, don't touch my butt. And I went oh yeah, oh my gosh, thank you for reminding me. Good job, that's right, because we want them to scare off adult predators, but we also want them to be able to feel really empowered with their peers who may have been abused by an adult predator and maybe playing out some of that behavior as they're trying to process what happened to them with our children. So we're talking about it. I set up body safety rules every time another kid comes over and every time my kid goes over to another house right before they leave, I say, okay, who wants to remind me what the body safety rules are? I get it fresh in their heads. We go over no hitting, no biting, no kicking, no spitting. You know they always add something like no name calling. I'm like great.
Speaker 2:And what about the parts that are under our swimsuits? What about our vulvas, our penises, our bottoms, our anuses? What about that? Are we allowed to touch those parts? Do we look at those parts? What do we do? Nope, okay. And then we don't look at pictures of those things either. So if someone tries to show you a picture of some of those body parts, like especially grownup body parts that's. That's not something they're supposed to be doing.
Speaker 1:We can look at drawings and books.
Speaker 2:You know you can ask questions, you can look at your own body parts, but we're basically trying to help prevent pornography exposure.
Speaker 1:Yes, I appreciate that so much and I'm wondering, you know, when you talk to parents about this and the body safety rules, do they say like, oh, no, but I'm afraid if I bring this up to them right before they, you know, get together with their, their friends, that that's going to create more Right, you know great curiosity I.
Speaker 2:I think that I probably I'm sure you have this too Like it's a strange thing to be a therapist in the world. So I think people relate to me differently than probably they do the average parent. But what I usually do is I say, hey, is it cool with you If I review the body safety rules? And I think, because they're rules, most people feel good with that. Yeah, Um, I've never had anyone say no. Honestly, I think most of the parents I'm around are relieved. They're like what, how does she say this? What, how?
Speaker 1:do I say this Um, they're taking notes, yeah.
Speaker 2:So and I want everyone to know that, like, the more that we address these things, the less covert curiosity our kids have to have, so the less likely they're going to play it out versus just talk about it with us. Yes, ask us questions. We're creating an open dialogue. You know what happens with kids who grow up in families who refuse to talk about any body parts or any rules around sexual abuse is they get the memo that mom and dad don't want to talk about this, or mom and mom, or dad and dad or whatever, like this is not a topic that I can, that they can handle, and so instead I'm going to take all this curiosity I have into my peer group.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and I'm going to ask to look under someone's skirt or I'm going to ask to like, and that's when, you know, play comes in and that's different than abuse. You know, like kids do get curious and that happens, and I don't think that is always traumatizing to every kid. I think it depends on the kid and the age gap and all sorts of things. Um, but it's still best that they come to us. So we're really like, here's the thing. And for your listeners to know, if you go to attachmentnerdcom, um, there's a freebies section and I have a poster that you can download of my body safety rules for free.
Speaker 2:So you can just go download it, put it up in your house, get used to it, talk about on play dates, um, attachmentnerdcom. So the other piece of this puzzle is when our kids are younger and they really can't verbalize what's happening around them or process it, or if they're neurodivergent in some way where they really aren't verbal at all. We want to signal to anyone we leave them in their care of that we're thinking about these things because an adult predator, pedophile, is targeting children. They feel they can overpower without getting caught, and so we want to signal to them I'm watching. And because we don't know who those predators are they are more likely to be men than women, but many women still do assault and abuse. Um, we want to just go ahead and cover the whole gamut, right?
Speaker 2:So whenever I my kids started a new school, I say something along the lines of hey, by the way, I'm teaching all my kids anatomically correct language. I just want to make sure you're comfortable with that. Because they may say will you wipe my anus? And you might look at them cross-eyed like my goodness. Um, but the reason I teach them that is because they are far less likely to get targeted by a predator, because now that predator knows that I am paying close attention and my children and I are talking about sexual abuse. Love it, yes. And if you have caregivers and youth leaders and pastors I'm using all those words because I've heard one too many of those stories Grandparents, uncles, aunts, neighbors, babysitters so they've all been warned they are far less likely to then try to covertly groom your child and abuse your child, because you've just signaled this is a risky place to do that.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, such good advice. Use the language, let them know, right, we we talk about these things. They may bring this up and this is acceptable in our home. I remember getting a phone call from my son's teacher when I don't I think it was in second grade, and she was like, oh, we've got a problem. Oh, no, you know, he used the word penis and it really alarmed people in the class and the other kids and I was like, well, what were you talking about? And she told me and it was perfectly appropriate, he was like on point and I said that's what we call this body part. That's what it's called. It's what it is.
Speaker 2:We made him roll around on the floor and say it over and over again. That's right.
Speaker 1:We tried to condition him to say this, and now you're saying it's a problem, but that's about their discomfort.
Speaker 2:Yes, and as a caregiver, what you really want to do is you want to be aware of people that are offended like defensive. That's not a good sign. Why is that person defensive? Some people are uncomfortable, which I think is different than being highly defensive about it. But if someone's highly defensive about it, that's probably not a great environment for your kid to be in. And maybe consider another environment if you have the privilege and the capacity to do that. Totally, I would not keep my kids in a daycare with a daycare provider who reacted negatively to my little spiel about anatomically correct words.
Speaker 1:That'd be a red flag for me. It's like, okay, we're moving on.
Speaker 2:So you've. You've taught all the language. You've made it talkable. Then you've taught body safety rules. That's great. Now, around the age of four and a half to five, we're going to talk directly with our children about sexual abuse. And this one is when I always get pushed back because, like periods, like I don't want them to lose their innocence. I'm like they're not losing their innocence, they're gaining information, and gaining information might be the thing that actually prevents them from losing their innocence A hundred percent. And this conversation needs to include several things. So it needs to include an understanding of grooming and how grooming works. It needs to be clear that abuse can happen from anybody, even people we love and trust, and we need to help them make a plan for what to do if someone attempts or succeeds at abusing. Just like we talk to children about drowning, just like we talk to children about drowning, about water safety, we talk to children about sexual abuse. They are far more likely to be sexual abused than they are to drown, wow.
Speaker 1:I never thought of that, so true that's how my brain works.
Speaker 2:So so when my son was five, I had this conversation with him and I said to him hey, I need to have an important conversation with you. You know how we've learned that we don't walk in the street because a car could hit us and we could end up in the hospital and that would be not good, and we don't jump into water that's deeper than we can swim in, because we could get sucked under the water and not be able to breathe, and that would be not good. Well, there's this other thing that can happen in the world, where either a grownup or another kid asks to do things to your body that are unsafe for a kid's body. They might ask you to touch some of their private parts. They might ask you to look at their private parts. They may ask you to look at their private parts. They may ask you to show them your private parts and they might try to touch your private parts. Show you pictures of other people touching private parts. They might try to um, ask you to touch another child's private parts, like anything that involves private parts or kissing on the mouth or any kind of uncomfortable touch.
Speaker 2:Yes, this is something we call sexual abuse and we just call it that, yes, not taking away their innocence. And the key is that we are grounded in this conversation, that we are not panicking and we are not overreacting as we have this conversation, but that we are just like when we talk about other scary things, having a level of solemnness that they can pick up on like, oh, this is a serious conversation that we're having right now. So good, yes. And when, when I told my son that's the first time he looked at me, he goes that's weird.
Speaker 1:Right, he's already knows that's weird.
Speaker 2:And I was like I know. It's like why did they do that? And I was like you know, yes, a lot of people have really messed up experiences when they were kids and they just never, ever get better and they just do it to other kids instead of actually thinking about what happened to them and dealing with that. He's like okay.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I want to underscore how, how capable our kids are of these conversations at five years old. Yes, they get it, they understand, they ask clarifying questions. They're like, yes, tell me why somebody would want to do that. Like they understand the dignity of their bodies and the safety that you have provided in your home, and so it's very like they need this conversation, like tell me why that would happen and and you know how to recognize it or what to do how do I stand up for myself with that person? Does this, you know? Yep.
Speaker 2:So then I explained here's what they usually do to get you there.
Speaker 2:So usually that person is going to do things to put you in a position to make it hard for you to say no.
Speaker 2:So they might make you feel extra special, give you special treats or special attention, or make you think that, like somehow they're an extra important person in your life, so that when they ask you to do one of these things, or when they start doing these things to you, you feel guilty about saying no because you feel bonded to them already. Oh, yes, so, and and you explain like you know, if someone, if someone, gave you a, a, um, brand new stuffed animal and it was something you really loved and you loved it, and then a couple of weeks later they said, well, now I want to punch you in the face because I gave you a stuffed animal. You might feel kind of confused, like wait a minute, I'm confused and maybe you would like pause for a second and not know what to say. And then they punch you in the face and then you're like super confused, right, and then they give you something else and then you think, well, maybe they're not mad at me.
Speaker 2:And I don't know what to do with this. That's how these people work. They confuse you with kindness. That's what grooming is. They confuse you with kindness, or sometimes they make up lies to scare you. So they might say something like if you don't do this, then I'm going to hurt your mom and dad, right? They might say something like if you don't do this, then I'm going to hurt your mom and dad, right. And I want you to know that these are the type of people who make things up. They're the type of people that hurt kids. So you already know that they're not really trustworthy characters. So if they say, like this bad thing is going to happen, I want you to know it's not true. That's not what's going to happen. They just know that you'll that. You don't know that, and they know that you're a kid and they're trying to scare you so they can get what they want from you.
Speaker 1:You explain to them that these people are trying to trick you and you're not going to get tricked. Yes, right, you, you're on to them.
Speaker 2:You sniffed it out and this is this is exactly as weird and as uncomfortable as it seems. That's right. It feels weird, because it is weird, yes, so then. So, then we start working on a plan, and so we came up with what do we think our plan is? And he came up with run, yell, tell.
Speaker 1:Run, yell tell.
Speaker 2:I was like that's great, run, yell, tell. Absolutely. So if someone starts to say something that makes you uncomfortable or look at you in an uncomfortable way, you can just run away, yell loudly so that the people who you know can help you will help you and then tell them what it was that happened and made you uncomfortable. And we identified who his people were at that stage of his life, both inside my home, outside of my home, within relatives that he could always go tell these people if something happens. Then and this is important we did a role play and once you hear what happened in my role play, you'll be like, oh my gosh, this is so interesting how kids brains work. So I said, okay, let's pretend that someone says to you I'll give you a hundred dollars If you tickle my penis what do you?
Speaker 2:do. And I was expecting him, because we just had the conversation, to say run yell, tell El Tel right. Instead he looked at me and he goes maybe a hundred dollars is a lot of money. Yes, I thought, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Yes, I, I understand the value of his intact sexual development yes he doesn't understand that because he hasn't sexually developed and and so, like he just wasn't sure, he's like maybe that, maybe she's tricking me here Like maybe maybe a hundred dollars is worth it, right, and so with him, I and I have. I come from a background of privilege where I really could follow up on this offer. So when you use your example, don't use a hundred dollars. Say, what if someone offers you $10 to tickle your penis, what do you do? But I told him listen, anytime anyone offers you anything to touch your private parts, attach their private parts to look at pictures of private parts, any of that, you, whatever the offer is, I will double it.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that.
Speaker 2:So wise Kids can then in that moment be like, oh, this is a cool stuffed animal, but I already know my mom said she'd get me too. Yes, um, and so I mean this obviously can get tricky if you are in a context where all of a sudden another grandma and grandpa are offering your kids toys and then they come back and like I told grandma no, cause you'd get me too, right, and you say like, no, I, I'm talking about if someone is trying to hurt you by touching you or having you touch them or looking at all that stuff. So you're, you're repeating all those things over and over so they really have it in their head, and then the key is to continue to bring it up over time in a in a nonchalant way. Hey, just checking in. We had that conversation about sexual abuse. Do you have any thoughts or questions of any? Anything come up? You know, have you? Has there been anything that's happened that's felt like that in the past or recently? Yes, and then continuing over the years.
Speaker 2:And I would say you know, if you're, if you're not noticing any concerning signs in your children, like they've become all of a sudden incredibly sullen and they're not talking to you about anything. You know that's a disturbing like what's going on. Let's say, your kid is acting fairly regulated and well, I don't know, maybe every once a month it's just like a check-in. Hey, we haven't talked about sexual abuse in a while. Has anything happened that's made you uncomfortable? Has anyone been creepy with you or, you know, have you heard of anything happening to anybody else? And most of the time they're going to say no, and that's great. But you've set the stage that it's something they can bring to you if and when they are able to and ready to. Sometimes it takes kids a while to disclose. Yes, kind of like what you went through. It takes a while to even process what happened. It's like what just happened.
Speaker 1:Yes, Was that? Yes, and so I love the idea of bringing it up, you know and bringing it from.
Speaker 2:if it's a grownup, that grownup has also probably made the child feel like it was their fault or it didn't really happen. There was probably gaslighting, you know. So there's stuff our kids are having to process through Um and that's why we continue child feel like it was their fault or it didn't really happen. There was probably gaslighting, you know. So there's stuff our kids are having to process through Um and that's why we continue to bring it up because at different developmental stages they might have more of an ability to talk about it. I know a lot of people who end up disclosing after they are in a class where they learn about something like maybe they're in junior high school and they realize, oh my gosh, that's what my brother did to me. Yes, that's that's actually what my cousin tried to do to me, um. So I think, knowing as a parent that we're setting up the stage for our children to disclose to us and they may not immediately disclose, it may take them some time, but that we want them to disclose at some point, no matter what.
Speaker 1:Yes and Eli, I don't know if you've had I'm sure you've had this experience in your practice where you have an adult client come to you and they say you know, when you're asking about their sexual abuse history, was that something that you experienced? They, they say no one ever believed me.
Speaker 2:Yes, I've had it one too many times.
Speaker 1:Yes, and they didn't believe me that. No one thought I was telling the truth. They thought I was trying to get back at uncle Randy or whatever, and so speak to that a little bit. I mean, if somebody, if your child, tells you that something happened to them and it's your brother that did it to him, or your husband's you know aunt or whatever, yes, what, how, how should you respond to them so that they will continue talking about it versus you know shutting?
Speaker 2:it down. So number one, that's we. The reason I introduced and said we aren't in control of making sure this doesn't happen we're doing what we can to prevent it, but we're not under the delusion that we are in control of making sure is because I think a lot of parents in that moment are so full of shame that, rather than processing the grief, they they just come up with a different narrative. Well, this can't be that like cause. They don't want to deal with it because it means they've failed. So we want to come to our children with, with the acceptance that they may experience this in the world. One in three girls, one in six boys, by the time they're 18.
Speaker 2:Wow, and we've all witnessed the Me Too movement. How many women have been sexually assaulted, sexually abused, raped in adulthood as well? Like, the likelihood is, our children will experience some form of sexual violence in their lifetime, and so we need to be prepared to hold that travesty and tragedy with them, which means we do need to believe them. So if, in the future, my children come to me and say, mom, this happened, my first response is going to be I'm so sorry, tell me what you remember or tell me when. Just very gently and openly receptive to them, telling the story in that moment, and they may not tell you a lot Not first time, I might've just taken so much courage to say it at all that then they're like I don't want to talk about it anymore. Yes, and then our response is okay, we don't have to talk right now. We will figure this out, but we don't talk right now. And then our next line of communication is I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that that never happens again.
Speaker 2:So that they hear that, A they're believed, and they're believed so much that B we are going to intervene in some way, shape or form.
Speaker 1:Yes, one of the things that I heard you know from clients is is that you know when their kids come to disclose that they have been abused by a relative, someone close to them, you know, in the home they say you know, I'm going to tell you this, but you can't tell anyone, because I don't want yes, you know uncle Joe to get in trouble and I don't want him to go away or something. I don't want something bad to happen to his family because he's going to go to jail, right. And so then as a parent, you're put in a position where it's like, oh no, he's trusting in me or she's trusting in me, and so what do I do about this? So speak to that a little bit. What advice would you give a parent in that situation?
Speaker 2:Okay. So let's say they say before they disclose I want to tell you something, but you have to promise not to tell anyone what close I want to tell you something, but you have to promise not to tell anyone. What I want you to do is say you can tell me anything and no matter what you tell me, I'm going to make sure that you are safe, that we are safe, that everybody in the situation is safe.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So you're not promising, you're not saying I'm not going to tell anyone, but you are reassuring what the fear is underneath that. Underneath that fear is, someone will get hurt. Yes, which is another reason I like to tell parents please don't do the shotgun approach to protection. Please don't tell your children If anyone ever hurts you, I'm going to send them to the fine farm. If anybody ever hurts you, I'm going to take them out back and teach them a lesson.
Speaker 1:Don't do that, because now your children are set up to protect you instead of disclosing to you so they won't tell you because they're afraid you're going to lose your nutter and end up in jail. Oh, that is so good. Yes, do not. Do not pre-tell them what you're, how you're going to hurt the person if they get hurt by them. Ooh that's good, good reminder, that doesn't make children feel protected.
Speaker 2:That makes children. It adds to the pile of terror. Yes, what makes children feel protected is, if something ever happens to you, I will believe you and I will make sure it stops, and then I will help you get the healing that you need to get through it. We will get through it together. Yes, so that's. The next message is this is not going to happen anymore and we're going to get through.
Speaker 1:This message is this is not going to happen anymore and we're going to get through this.
Speaker 2:And then you know your job is to go and go to your village, to your friends and family members, partners, whoever it is in your world that can help you grieve, because it's. It is not happening to you, but it is happening to you. Being the parent of a child who's experiencing trauma is is a nightmare. So you go to your people and you process and you get wise counsel from therapists, from supports, and you get connected to other grownups that are going to help you figure out how to help your child through this. And it does get messy, you know like. So what?
Speaker 2:If so, this scenario happens way too often is that when a sibling, an older sibling usually a boy, not always a boy assaults um a younger sibling, and so the younger sibling discloses to and your brain freezes because you were only prepared to deal with some psychopathic pedophile and you were going to just call the cops and end their life, their life as they knew it, and now it's your other child. Oh, so different. It's so different and it's unfortunately not uncommon. 33% of all sexual abuse happens from child to child.
Speaker 2:I believe, that 80% of sexual abuse happens at the hands of someone we know and trust. So you know, like I said, you were in a small percentage of people that experienced sexual abuse outside of those contexts. But so if, if that's the situation, and one sibling to the next, you you're going to have to do a lot of different forms of investing. So, first of all, you're communicating to the younger sibling I'm so proud of you for telling me that was so brave. And they're like is Danny going to get in trouble? And you're like Danny is going to get help.
Speaker 2:We are going to make sure that whatever's going on with Danny gets what it needs, but he is not going to be able to do that to you again. Yes, this is this won't happen again. I'm so proud of you. And then you're going to have a lot of complexity and this is why you need to have a professional in your corner if this has occurred in your life, and I know a lot of people get freaked out because what if CPS gets called? First of all, I want everyone to know that CPS very rarely takes kids out of homes. They don't want to take your kid out of your home.
Speaker 2:They don't want to pay to take your kid out of your home. They're really only going to take kids out of homes where caregivers are truly neglectful and are truly abusive. Yes, so even if CPS gets called, what that will actually likely unlock in your life is more resources. Yes, agreed. If they don't, they don't, but if they do so if you're sharing with a therapist hey, this is what my child told me that their sibling was touching their private parts or having them. Um, this is a specific scenario. I've worked with a sibling sexual abuse. An older sibling was having it in their sibling. Take all their clothes off, take a shower and like do gymnastics moves in the shower.
Speaker 1:Okay, I haven't heard that one before, but this things happen.
Speaker 2:That's right. So you know this is what's happened and you're you're telling a therapist like this is what's happened. You want the therapist to help you really evaluate and make sure that's all that has happened. Not that that isn't in itself traumatic, confusing, disorienting and a form of trauma, but that we want to make sure there's not other stuff going on, Like what's the full extent of this, um? And then we want to make sure that we know what it is that's motivating that older child.
Speaker 2:Is this curiosity, right?
Speaker 2:So, again, maybe we've raised our children not talking about these things because we were told they were bad and scary and we thought we weren't supposed to and so we didn't. And so now we have an 11-year-old boy in the home who's very curious about bodies and is like well, my sister has a body and I want to see what it looks like, and so they're trying, you know, like, is it motivated by curiosity or has this child been exposed to pornography early? Have they had their own trauma from somebody else? Another child or another grownup? We're really wanting to evaluate what's going on. Another child or another grownup? We're really wanting to evaluate what's going on, yes, and then we're going to establish really clear rules about you know when and where these two kids, or all of our kids, are to be alone with each other. We're going to make sure we're talking about sexual abuse. We're going to have family therapy so that our children don't have to have the trauma of being dropped and ignored along with the trauma of having experienced some form of sexual violation.
Speaker 1:Yes, because I think that I think the common response for parents, when they get so shocked that this has happened, is separate them. You've got to go over there. You're going to have to go to grandma's for a few weeks. I can tell we sort this out, and so I like your approach of saying like we're going to heal this together, we're going to get help together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know and I think it really depends Right. So like this is another case I've been working on for a long time, but the older brother was 15 and the daughter was 12 and he raped her, yeah, so like in that context um, you know, this daughter never told her parents because she really sensed that they wouldn't know what to do. That was her sense.
Speaker 2:Um, and so didn't, didn't even like fully remember until adulthood, until she could process it later on, Um, but if a child is disclosing like a violent level of assault from a sibling, then actually it might be appropriate. But we want to do that again. We want to do this with confidence and love. Hey, what, what happened there was really not OK. And so we're going to have to have you stay at grandma's Dad's going to go with you so that you're not alone. But we're going to take a few days and maybe it's during those few days that you're getting professional help and assessment to figure out all of the ins and outs of what's happened.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:The goal is not to ruin the life of the child who has offended, because why are they offending Exactly? They're not okay, they're not okay. But it is to get them the resources and help they need in hopes that they can heal and recover and move into a different zone. I mean, this is messy, messy, messy business no doubt this is which is why I think so many of us would prefer to just never talk about it Like that one happened to me.
Speaker 1:Right, but we have to talk about it, because the more we talk about it in our circles, in our communities, the more common this feels like, yeah, body safety, you know, just like bicycle safety, swimming safety, the more common this feels like, yeah, body safety, you know, just like bicycle safety, swimming safety. You're right. It's just we need to make it more of a our common vernacular so that we can be in each other's corners, because I've witnessed so many times where parents feel so ashamed. It's like, no, nobody knows in our family that this happened. Nobody not, not my sister, not my parents I couldn't even bear to tell my spouse or something and it's like, guys, yeah, that doesn't make it better.
Speaker 2:That doesn't create healing for anybody.
Speaker 1:Absolutely not. So I I'm so grateful that you're out there, you're on social media, you're on your website, attachmentnerdcom. You are counseling people. You have retreats for parents to learn more about this and understand their own attachment patterns and identify their own areas of trauma in their past to really make this something that we can connect with, not be afraid of, but instead be prepared for.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes. Well, and the other note I want everyone to have is that the most powerful thing we do to protect our children in the world is to cultivate the type of secure attachment with them that lends to them wanting to run to our arms when things feel scary and overwhelming, like that piece of the puzzle is so massive, and that's why I really do push back on behavioral type parenting approaches where we're trying to punish our children into obedience or we're trying to motivate them through negative consequences. It messes with the attachment relationship. We need to have boundaries, we need to have limits. We need to teach our children what's okay and not okay in social behavior, but we don't have to hurt them in order for them to learn, and I want us all to remember that.
Speaker 2:You know when we're in a new job and we're learning something new. We don't need the people who are training us to threaten to dock our pay if we don't do it right the first, second, third or fourth time. We need them to give us clues and guides and ideas. Right, and that's not permissive. Permissive is just ignoring and not helping a child to develop. But we can be connected teachers and guides so that when the big bad stuff comes, our children are more likely to come tell us so that we can help them, so that we can prevent it from being a years long encounter and instead it be. You know, a creepy feeling in the parking lot. You know, yes, that's we. We, we want our children to be able to have resilience, and resilience comes from connection.
Speaker 1:Yes, you're so right. I you know. I was talking about my own experience that I shared earlier with my parents and my parents said you know, our parents never talked about this stuff with us, so why would they talk to us about this? Right, it's like they're thinking like, well, we just that wasn't common talk around our house, like nobody shared about that. You kind of heard about it from people who had already experienced something bad. But you know what you're saying is lay the foundation early with your kids. Four to five, make this common talk. Don't scare them every time they do something wrong by punishing them and only rewarding, like pure obedience, without questioning anything. Right, because that creates fear and they're just obeying because they're afraid of you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's compliance. We want our children to be cooperative, but not compliant, because we all know that not every person in power in the world is wielding their power with kindness and grace and creativity Right, and so, like there are places we want our children to defy authority yes, and and, and we definitely want them to defy the authority of a grownup who's trying to sexually abuse them and grooming them, and we can't teach them that skill if we're also teaching them blind obedience. So we have to think in relational terms. I have so much more information. There's a whole free webinar on sexual abuse prevention where I go even more in depth through each of the stages and how you think about that and I give examples. You can kind of watch me like talk to a pretend baby about their body parts et cetera, so that you can get kind of deeper, more details on this prevention process, as well as heaps and heaps and heaps of information in my membership where you can go watch videos on how to stay calm when your child's upset or how to help you and your partner get on the same page about parenting kind of all the things entailed in cultivating secure attachment for our kids and the biggest piece of what we know from the data, of how we offer our children secure attachment experiences with us, is about have we done our own work about our own attachment experiences? So have we reflected on what we experienced growing up with our caregivers? Have we grieved any parts of that that were insecure or painful? And then we can start to apply and grow and relate to our kids in more secure ways. So that's what my book is.
Speaker 2:It's not a parenting book, it's actually to help you go back and learn what happened to you, how it impacted you. There's a section that like references sexual abuse, because that can be a piece of your attachment puzzle If you were sexually abused and then you shut down and you stopped going to your parents about anything that affected your attachment pattern. And then a whole section on kind of what you developed as coping skills and then how can you now learn to rely securely on the other adults in your life? So how can you build secure attachment relationships that co-regulate and support you? And if because if we aren't doing that, we can't give our kids what they need we're just going to get overstimulated, overtired, we're going to be pissy, we're going to revert back to some of those patterns that we learned when we were little. Um, so that's, that is the like. Last resource I have is my book, securely attached.
Speaker 1:I love, I love, I love it and it's beautifully designed. You have such a unique look about yourself, about your website, attachmentnerdcom, your book. When did it come?
Speaker 2:out. It's recent. It actually comes out November 21st, so we're 12 days away.
Speaker 1:Yes, Exciting you guys. You have to get a copy. I've linked the Amazon.
Speaker 2:You know, amazon purchase link right here in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Yes, so you'll have no problem getting it.
Speaker 2:And right now, anyone who pre-orders. So if you order it in the next 12 days, um, or if you hear this podcast and you order it, cause maybe it'll be after order date, I don't know Okay, well, I'll just say that. So anyone who orders my book can, um, send that receipt to hello at attachment nerdcom, and just let me know that you heard me here on this podcast and I will send you a code for 50% off the membership.
Speaker 1:You're blessing our parent community. Okay, so they buy the book, send you a copy of the receipt that they bought the book, and then they get 50% off of your membership.
Speaker 2:Yes, and there are monthly, quarterly and yearly options, so you can get quite a bit off. If you link on the yearly one, it's quite a lot of money off bit off.
Speaker 1:if you link on the yearly one, it's quite a lot of money off. Yes, and if you're new to Eli and her message and her, you know her brand, attachment nerd, which I just love because I don't know that you're a nerd, but you definitely have you bring the brains and the science behind all this attachment.
Speaker 1:You know theory and and make it so practical for people. But if you're not ready to jump into a membership, follow her on Instagram please, tiktok. She's got a billion videos short reels, long webinars, like PDFs, like downloadable resources, free resources that go with the video. So I'm a very visually oriented person. Like.
Speaker 1:I have to hear it. But then I want, like a worksheet or a printable that I can write on, and you've got them both. So jam packed, jam packed with resources and attachment nerd. Yes, yes, so blessed to have you on our show. You're always welcome back on the families of character show. There's so much that you have to offer.
Speaker 2:I loved being here. Thank you for having me and thank you for doing what you're doing for families. It's such a gift.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, guys. I just want to point you to another resource so you know that if you're a part of our community the thrive community by families of character on Facebook, that's our private community that we have launched some parent coaching. So we just kicked off our first session last night and it was fire. People are really wanting to share, to dig in, to identify the things that are going well in their family and also to just have a safe space to talk about things that maybe they're not so confident about when it comes to parenting kids and some of these topics just like sexual abuse, and so that is a new service that we're offering is parent coaching.
Speaker 1:So, yes, go to our website, families of charactercom, hit the shop button and you will be able to see whatever coaching options we have going on currently and get notified of the new ones. Also, when this episode launched, you got an email in your inbox. So we send out an email every Tuesday and so you can sign up for our newsletter at families of charactercom Just hit the subscribe button up top. And if you're listening to this on audio, but you want to see what we look like talking back and forth, and this gal's style her rock and earrings and her lipstick, which is her signature. Look go to YouTube and check us out. It's on our YouTube channel, families of Character, and you can watch there. So again, thank you very much, eli, for sharing and blessing our community with such practical resources and giving us hope about prevention and intervention with sexual abuse.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me Jordan, yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, guys, we'll catch you on another episode real soon.
