Unsexy Church
Unsexy Church
Season 2 Episode 41: On Spiritual Gifts
In this episode, we dive into the essential topic of spiritual gifts and their impact on your faith journey. Here’s what you can expect:
- What Are Spiritual Gifts? Get a clear understanding of sign gifts like speaking in tongues and their roles within the church.
- Different Perspectives: We discuss various views on spiritual gifts, including cessationism and continuationism, providing a balanced exploration of each.
- Insight from our Pastors: Pastor Bob and Pastor Trent share their take on spiritual gifts and how they have found what they have been gifted in, and offering real-life examples of how to find your gifts to be used for the body of the church.
- Identifying Your Gifts: Learn practical steps to discover and develop your own spiritual gifts, including scriptural study and seeking advice from your church community.
- Empowering the Church: Understand how utilizing your gifts strengthens not just your personal faith but also your entire church body, drawing the church closer to Christ.
Join us to deepen your understanding of spiritual gifts and learn how to actively contribute to your community with gifts given to you by the Holy Spirit.
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Unsexy Church podcast. That was very smooth. It was very smooth. I think we should hear some applause. People are clapping in the studio. Actually, they're not in the studio. They're a part of our new little machine that we have for the podcast, which is so nice it's.
Bob:Ben and or Ben Trent and Kara have a new toy.
Trent:Did you forget my name? I?
Bob:don't know, it's Wednesday afternoon. It's weird.
Trent:We have a new toy and our research assistant, kara, actually has a microphone right now. We're not always going to give her a microphone, but we have three, and so I said why don't you just hop on one? So you want to test your mic? Hello, you can actually hear her.
Bob:You can hear her voice. Kara is not a figment of our imagination. She's real.
Trent:So if we actually well, if we address a question to her, she can actually answer it Without leaning all the way in, and trying to yeah. Yeah, they're very directional mics. You got to be close to them, so if you're far you can't hear.
Bob:How are we doing? I feel like it's been a while. It has been a long while.
Trent:Yeah.
Bob:Has it not?
Trent:Yeah, we recorded an episode. Was it two weeks ago, in the aftermath of Hurricane.
Kara:Helene.
Trent:Yes, and then Hurricane Milton came, and by the grace of God, it did not hit as strong as they projected it to.
Bob:Not in our immediate area. Yeah, yeah.
Trent:Yeah, which even down south it didn't seem like it hit as strong as they projected it to. It kind of lessened when it got to land, which I'm thankful for. Well, hey, this machine's pretty cool. Pastor Bob, are we going to hear some? Can you just say something pretty insightful? Probably not. Well, hold on, I didn't have the volume up, so say that again. Probably not now. Just say something. Uh, you know from the bible.
Bob:Just anything in the beginning. God created the heavens and the earth. There it is. There it Like a 1970s game show.
Trent:It's so cool though. Yeah, this is awesome. Hey, well, I've got a fact. We'll just start out with oh. Going straight to the fact of the day, yeah, let's do it. Okay. Did you know that sloths one of, if not, the slowest moving creature in the animal universe? Did you know they have to burp their toots?
Kara:What does that even mean?
Trent:It means they cannot toot and it means that they have to remove all of the gas gastro. No, yeah, no, they cannot toot.
Bob:It's a thing I'm not an expert in.
Trent:Here's what I told tree sloths.
Bob:But I have that heart. I find that biologically hard to accept.
Trent:Here's what it says. Sloths are slow in everything they do, including digestion, because they digest food so slowly they basically have to breathe out their farts because they can't actually fart. Can we say fart on the podcast?
Bob:You just did twice. I said toot the first time.
Trent:What about poot P-O-O-T?
Bob:You're going to have to ask the parents who let their children listen to this podcast. Yeah, actually don't. You must apologize to them now for using such language.
Trent:Well, the problem is, I don't let my kids say that word and they listen to the podcast. My wife listens to the podcast.
Trent:You're in trouble at home. I use the phrase toot they're going to be laughing in the car this, by the way. Yes, I use the phrase to with the duncans. You help me come up with this fact. Uh, not come up with a fact, but find it, and find it for the podcast. And uh, they use the word fart. And so I was like, all right, ah, okay, no, it's all right, so it's a medical term.
Bob:Um, flatulence is the medical term you know I, regardless of the term, I find this hard to believe. Well, there's no way of knowing and I doubt, even with the Duncans looking at this. I you know they're smart children, but I doubt your sources.
Trent:Okay, well, look up and see if sloths can flatulate. And I know flatulence is technically the scientific term because Nickelodeon in the early 2000s had these random science facts in between shows and they used the term flatulence and they said that boys and girls flatulate somewhere between 20 and 25 times a day.
Bob:Did you know?
Trent:that that's lovely More than you would think.
Bob:It is a lot.
Trent:Yeah, all right, is it accurate? Are you above or below?
Kara:the curve According to the AI overview? Well, ask my wife. She'd say above According to the AI overview on Google. No sloths cannot fart.
Trent:Oh well, you know what AI said it, so that's definitive.
Bob:So they don't have stomachs. They don't have bowels stomachs, they don't have bowels.
Trent:They don't have intestines. Hey, can you just say for a minute good job, trent, you're right no, I can't, just for a second.
Bob:I can't say that. Can you say it?
Trent:I have a button I want to press. I have a button I want to press. Can you say good job, trent you think you're right I'm gonna keep hitting the buttons today, I know hey, uh, I do have a question for you as well. Um so, uh, I know I don't think you drink a lot of soda. I do not. I don't drink a lot of soda either. Kara, do you drink a lot of soda?
Kara:Every now and again.
Trent:Okay, so there are six sodas on the list I'm about to give, representing the kind of different genres, if you will, of sodas and you need to pick four and get rid of two, keep four, reject two. Yep, here are the six. Okay, barks root beer or any root beer for that matter, but I think Barks is the most common. It's the metal or silver can. Is it decaf? It is one of the only root beers that is not decaf.
Kara:Mug is decaf, all should be decaf.
Bob:Just say A&W. We'll say A&W. One of them is I. I never remember which one it is.
Trent:A&W and mug or decaf. Barks is not, ah, okay, barks is caffeinated, okay, but I think, okay, here's the deal.
Bob:Just root beer.
Trent:Barks is the best tasting root beer in a can. A&w belongs in a frosted mug.
Bob:Okay, you've given this a lot of thought.
Trent:Fanta orange soda or sun-kissed, but I think Fanta's better Pepsi Coke Mountain Dew and Dr Pepper. I'll repeat Root beer, orange soda, pepsi Coke Mountain Dew or Dr Pepper. Four stay to go.
Bob:Dr Pepper Mountain Dew Coke Root beer.
Trent:So you're getting rid of orange, soda and Pepsi. Yes, okay, do you like orange? Soda and Pepsi, yes, okay, do you like orange soda? I tolerate it, but Coke definitely beats Pepsi. Oh, 100%, I agree. All day, every day. All right, kara, what's your list?
Kara:My list is Coke, dr Pepper, root beer, orange soda and I'm getting rid of Pepsi and Mountain Dew.
Trent:You're getting rid of Mountain Dew I do not like Mountain Dew that much Really. Do you like a Baja Blast?
Kara:I like it enough, yeah. I gave the one the other day to Jordan.
Trent:Well, you gave it to him like three hours after he'd been sitting.
Kara:He did like it, though he was like yay, I don't like Baja Blast.
Trent:Do you like any of the Mountain Dew flavors? Pastor Bob, Like the extra flavors I can't drink any of them.
Bob:I was going off. You can drink Diet Mountain Dew, can't you?
Trent:No.
Bob:It's just all the caffeine.
Trent:Yeah, it's the caffeine Is there a non-caffeinated Mountain Dew?
Bob:Defeat the purpose of Mountain Dew, wouldn't it? Yeah, probably so.
Trent:Yeah, okay, I would get rid of Pepsi as well.
Bob:Do you know which city Dr Pepper was formulated in?
Trent:No, and it's weird that you do. It's not weird that I do. Once you know what city it is. Is it Tampa? It is not. Where is it at?
Bob:Waco Texas.
Trent:Really. Yes, there's a.
Bob:Dr Pepper museum right there in Waco.
Trent:Dr Pepper. Is it owned by PepsiCo or by Coca-Cola?
Bob:I'm sure it probably is, I don't know. Yeah, I honestly don't know.
Trent:Yeah, I think Mountain Dew was its own brand for a while and now I think it's PepsiCo. I think that's correct, but I think Dr Pepper may still be its own, because I think places that have Coke and places that have Pepsi have both.
Bob:Can I ask why Sprite was not on the list? We could have put Sprite Sprite's not caffeinated. Is Sprite one of your favorites? No, but it's one that I can still drink, so if I have a soda now, it would be a Sprite.
Trent:Yeah, I like Sprite. If I'm drinking something in the evening, like if I have a late meal, I don't want caffeine. It's not too sweet, but it's almost just like carbonated water. There's just a little bit of sugar in it and just a tiny bit of flavor. It's significantly better than like a La Croix or something like that that has a drop of some kind of flavor in it, but it's just okay. Are you a Sprite fan, kara?
Kara:Sprite's all right. It's refreshing, it's okay.
Trent:Do you know Sprite fan? Kara, sprite's all right, it's refreshing, it's okay. Do you know the story behind? So, like Sierra Mist is not Sierra Mist anymore. Do you know the story?
Kara:Oh, it's like Starry, it's Starry. Have you seen that around?
Trent:Starry. So you got a Taco Bell. It's Starry. Now it's not Sierra Mist, right, because they had the, which had Sierra Mist, and not Sprite, co-cast Sprite. But Sierra Mist with a C, c-i-e-r-a, m-i-s-t. Is a girl who got the rights when the rights of the name Sierra Mist. Like, I guess they have to renew for the rights of the names here. I missed Like, like I guess they have to renew for the rights of the name and she stepped in and grabbed it from them.
Trent:That's so funny and so she's now become popular, like on Instagram or Tik TOK or something like that. But but yeah, so she has the rights to the name.
Kara:So her name isn't even spelled the same way that it, you know, I don't.
Trent:I don't know all the details, but, yeah, her name is not spelled the same way, so I don't know if she just tried to act like actually grab it too, because it sounds this. I'm not sure, but you can google it there's no way to know no way to know, no way to find out.
Bob:We have caron a mic now oh, so that supersedes all other okay maybe we can I, you know okay research assistant.
Trent:You know, Okay.
Kara:Research assistant. Is it Sierra Mist? Like spelled like that.
Trent:Yeah, I guess there's two R's C-I-E-R-R-A, so the S is the only difference and she, like sued for the rights or got the rights in a lapse of trademark or something. Is that true?
Kara:Okay, I'm only seeing some random Reddit pages. Yeah, Reddit's pretty sketchy I don't see anything that seems valid at the moment.
Trent:Look at Sierra Miss, look up her name and then look up Starry S-T-R-R-Y. Here's two R's and then, if we had like a da-na-na on this, I'd be playing it right now. You're just promoting urban myths. Hey, while we wait, Bob, can you just check your mic? Your mic's not sounding right for some reason. Can you check it? What am I going to sound like?
Kara:now.
Trent:We can change the way his voice sounds, any shot.
Kara:There's a random website called Sporked.
Trent:Oh, it definitely sounds like a legitimate website. What does it say? What's the headline?
Kara:What happened to Sierra Mist?
Trent:Okay, give us a synopsis. Just scan it really fast.
Kara:PepsiCo never quite knew what to do with the brand. It rebranded as Mist Twist. What? Briefly? In 2015, for some reason, apparently. I do not remember that. Why is it Starry?
Trent:It does not seem like it is confirming what I said. No, it does not.
Bob:But I am pretty sure it is accurate. You might do your research before you throw this stuff out there.
Kara:I am pretty sure it is accurate. It is not saying anything about this chick.
Bob:Our audience is fascinated by this right now.
Trent:All right. Hey, so today we are, you know facts are facts. Okay, so today we're going to talk about spiritual gifts. Pastor Bob Talking about what Spiritual gifts? Spiritual gifts.
Bob:I like gifts. Gifts are nice.
Trent:They are.
Kara:What about spiritual ones? Spiritual gifts, spiritual gifts I like gifts. Gifts are nice, they are. What about spiritual ones?
Bob:Spiritual even better.
Kara:Yeah.
Bob:They last longer.
Trent:Can you remember like a gift that you were given back in like middle school or high school for Christmas that you were like this just was incredible, like surely, like one time you went, you guys gave gifts under the tree growing up, sure, okay, yeah, uh and uh, was there ever a gift that were like? That was just like life altering for them, for at least for that day it's like, oh man, my life's never been the same. I've got a new bike or I've got ah, it's so cool.
Bob:You remember middle school or high school, I don't remember my parents always gave great gifts, but I don't remember any life-altering gifts in high school. But younger From the mind of the age you ever heard of electronic football.
Trent:Not the little game.
Bob:Oh, no, like vibrating, vibrating, the feel. You put the little guys on there and they had a felt football and they vibrated down the view and set them up. Oh yeah, loved that game. Yeah, that's cool, that was life-altering. Yes, that's awesome.
Trent:There was a year where I got both a bike and a snowboard.
Trent:Now when we say snowboard, that sounds like they went over the top, but it was like one that you got A couple two-by-fours. It was one you slipped your feet into but it didn't snap, that kind of thing. But I just thought it was cool saying I can ride a bike when there's no snow and when there's snow I can actually get on my snowboard and I can ride a snowboard. I can get around everywhere. How awesome is this going to be? I used that snowboard for a number of years. Actually, we tied one of those ratchet straps. We used one of the ratchet straps and held one end of it. We pulled off the crank and we held one of it on the back of a friend's truck and rode snowboard behind the truck. It was so much fun. It's hard to do. Here in Tampa In college I used a penny board. You know what a penny board is? No. So a penny board is like a redesign, a new brand that brought back kind of the skateboards of, like, I think, the 70s.
Kara:I have no idea. Do you know what a penny board is? Yeah, I know what a penny board is. Yeah, I just don't know when.
Trent:Yeah, I think it's like the seventies. So it's like the wider wheels, the smaller skateboard that's hard plastic and kind of shaped almost like a surfboard, and the penny one's the smaller and they make a nickel which is a little bigger but your barely fit on it and, um, during finals week my senior year of college, uh, we tried to see how fast a car could go hanging on to it. So is that 70s ish? That's the board of my childhood.
Trent:Yeah, yeah, early 80s, 70s, something like that. Yeah, um, so yeah, we try to get as fast as we could behind or the car as fast as we could.
Bob:It sounds like a great idea. Can you guess how fast we?
Trent:got 35. 33.
Bob:Yeah, 33 was the number 33.
Trent:It was so cool and we took it on the road. So we mostly went on almost like the cement kind of roads on the campus, which were a lot smoother, and then we took it to the road and it was a lot more wobbly with the asphalt. Yeah, it was pretty cool. It was pretty fun. It's a great story. Yeah, it's pretty fun. It's a great story. Yeah, spiritual gifts, spiritual gifts. So I think this episode's actually going to be on our website. We're doing a website redesign and kara said why don't you guys talk about spiritual gifts so that we can put it on a page dedicated to spiritual gifts?
Bob:okay, so they're gonna have to listen, so we have to be serious about this.
Trent:Well, they're gonna have to listen to a number of things beforehand and they're gonna know we're not super serious so um. So, kara, what do you want? To ask the questions Do you want? How do you want this to work?
Kara:I would love to ask the questions.
Trent:Okay, and if we're not clear, ask further.
Kara:I shall. Okay. Are you ready for the first one? Yep.
Trent:Do I need some noise before you ask it?
Kara:I mean if, if, if you would like.
Trent:I don't, I don't know which one let's do. Uh no, I don't really have. You're having too much fun with this, hey karen, hey karen can you?
Kara:can you hurry up and ask the question here, can you? Uh, okay, so so what are spiritual gifts? What are spiritual gifts? Gifts that are spiritual, gifts that are spiritual yes, I feel like people throw it around a lot like what's your spiritual gift? This is mine, I don't, and I it's hard to know. You know, like, what are you talking about?
Bob:Okay, so do you want like a definition? Or do you want? Okay, All right. So I will answer the question in two ways. I'll give you a definition of spiritual gifts and also answer by saying what spiritual gifts are not. So, let's start with what spiritual gifts are not the spirit right?
Trent:So Galatians 5, love, joy peace, patience, kindness that's not what we're talking about when we're talking about spiritual gifts. So we don't have to wait to be given something from the Holy Spirit to be more loving, correct. We already have that.
Bob:It should be the overflow of. God in our lives. Spiritual gifts are also not natural talents. They're not the ability to run fast or to sing or those kinds of things.
Trent:But God could give you a talent at a young age.
Bob:That matures in you, sure, but it's not by definition a spiritual gift.
Trent:So God may have made Michael Jordan a really good jumper. Yes, but, not necessarily a gift spiritual gift.
Bob:Right, okay, okay. So a spiritual gift is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life that equips them and enables them to do works of service for the building up of the body of Christ.
Bob:That's how I would define a spiritual gift. It's an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It's not something we do. It is something that God gives us through the Holy Spirit, I believe, at the time of salvation, when we've trusted in him and the Holy Spirit indwells us. It's an outpouring of the Holy Spirit that enables us to do what God's called us to do, to represent him, and it's used to build up the body of Christ. So you don't have it for yourself. You use it within the body of Christ to help each other, to build each other up.
Trent:So not used for someone's personal platform necessarily of propagating the gospel, someone's personal platform necessarily of propagating the gospel, but for the edification of others, whether it be gospel furtherance or church edification, edifying the body, serving the body.
Bob:And all believers have at least one. We probably have more than one, but we have at least one. So everybody is gifted. The Greek words that are used to define this are words charismata, which is where we get the word charismatic, or charisma, which is just grace, gift, a gift of grace. So it's not something we have, it's something God graces to us gives us, specifically, believers Correct For the edification of the church.
Bob:Now they can be developed, they can be matured, you can grow in them and we should all, once we've identified them, we should grow in them and utilize them.
Kara:Could you give me some examples of some spiritual gifts?
Bob:Sure, I could give you a couple lists of spiritual gifts. Specifically, I would point everybody to Romans chapter 12 and 1 Corinthians, chapter 12, which are the two passages that tend to list spiritual giftedness. So there are lots of them. Teaching administration helps evangelism service helps evangelism service encouragement discernment, prophecy, wisdom, prophecy, wisdom, faith.
Trent:And that's not initial faith of believing in Christ, that's faith in. God. Trust in God.
Bob:Speaking in tongues. Interpretation of tongues.
Trent:Seeing anything else, healing, healing is one. Did you say discernment?
Bob:I did, I think I did.
Trent:Okay, mercy, yeah, leadership, leadership, hospitality or giving.
Bob:So those are. Those are what are listed in Romans 12 and first Corinthians 12.
Trent:And, to be clear, there's a few of those like serving. If you don't have necessarily the gift of serving, that doesn't exclude you from having to serve right, or if you don't have the gift of teaching, that doesn't mean that you take opportunities to teach a fellow brother or sister in Christ, making disciples, maturing them into.
Bob:Yeah, Evangelism. We're all called to evangelism. Not all of us have the spiritual gift of evangelism. It doesn't excuse us from evangelizing, but there are certain people that are just gifted in that area and it's a gift that comes from God.
Trent:Now I think we've probably answered some questions on this list already. Just to look at both of those passages 1 Corinthians 12 and Romans 12. In 1 Corinthians 12, there are a number of issues in the church at Corinth, and yet God had been gracious to these people who had disobeyed him in many ways, by giving them gifts to serve one another really well. There was relationship problems within that body and these gifts were to enable them to serve one another spiritually, not just fleshly. And so he lists the gifts in 1 Corinthians 12. He says these are given by God's spirit. It means you don't get to choose which one you think you're better at. Naturally, it doesn't mean you get to pick one if you like one better than the other. In fact, that probably is the background to why he wrote 1 Corinthians 12, 13, and 14.
Trent:There were different people that, it seems, wanted very visible, verbal gifts. And so in 1 Corinthians 12, he says well, the spirit gives these and therefore the mutual edification of one another, and you're to use these gifts, kind of like different parts of a body. Just as the hand serves the rest of the body or the head serves the rest of the body and works in conjunction with you are to work in conjunction with one another. Some of you like a hand, some of you like a foot, some of you like a nose, some of you like ears discerning, and then goes on to say but if you don't use these gifts in love, what are you guys doing? She's looking at my notes. But if you don't use these gifts in love, they're worthless. Love should motivate the gifts.
Trent:He says you could speak in the tongues of men and angels, which I don't think is an actual language. I think you could speak in the tongues of men and angels, but if you don't have love, using these gifts means nothing.
Kara:It means absolutely nothing.
Trent:So that's 1 Corinthians 13, the love chapter. You're to use these gifts, not being rude but being patient, putting one another above yourself. And then in 1 Corinthians 14, he says seek out the gifts that edify others. Romans 12, in the context of that passage where it lifts the gifts, it begins by saying give yourselves as a living sacrifice, meaning lay your life down at the altar and then serve others. Well, so in both cases, when we think about the gifts, we think about how can I lay down my desires and serve someone else?
Bob:Yeah, as you're saying, 1 Corinthians is written and it appears that the church is having issues of being jealous of one another's gifts or desiring a different gift because they've sensed that one was greater than another. So there's arguing going on and Paul's addressing that, and then first Corinthians 13, of course, is the context of love you know, it doesn't matter what gift you have If you don't use it in love.
Bob:you could say the same thing about Romans, romans 13,. All about love. So both contexts where he's talking about these gifts that God has given us to edify one another, build each other up. It's not to draw attention to yourself, it's to help your brother and sister, and to do so in love.
Trent:So the spirit gives and enables spiritual service. But love has to be the motivator. But love has to be the motivator. In 1 Corinthians 14, kind of the conclusion of the spiritual gift section in 1 Corinthians, it seems as though what are known as the sign gifts, which we can talk about more later. But the sign gifts are the gifts that people desired because they were very visible, flashy. They were very visible, right. So this guy can speak in a different language. I want that because that's very clear, it's a spiritual gift, because he couldn't speak that language before. But I've got the gift of service and we're all called to that. So, man, I want that gift so people can see me as spiritual and if we're using the gifts to be seen there, I mean, that's the. That's the fundamental problem, right? Um, gifts are not for a personal platform, they're for mutual service. Yeah, cool.
Kara:So so it seems like we've talked about how gifts are intended for the benefit of the church community as a whole, um, and we receive these gifts for one another to be used for one another, um, but I am curious, kind of like where? Just cause I don't really have a really good grasp on this topic, I guess as a whole, but I'm curious, like, if we're all called to service, like what, and we receive the gift, uh, like our spiritual gifts, at the moment when we come to salvation, like I don't know someone might be I'm thinking someone might be really good at teaching their whole lives. Then they come to salvation in the Lord. Is it possible that that teaching might not be their spiritual gift or that it would be? I feel like someone from the outside might see oh, surely their spiritual gift is teaching or evangelism or something similar.
Bob:Yeah, so I think God can take certain abilities and use those or magnify them. Teaching isn't just random teaching. It's not teaching anything. It's specifically teaching the word of God so that people can understand it. So you can be a great teacher and not be able to teach the word of God, so that people can understand it. So just because you're a good teacher doesn't necessarily mean your spiritual giftedness is going to be teaching.
Kara:It may.
Bob:It may very well, god may take those things and use them and then just reapply them to his word, but it is something that is unique that you did not have prior to salvation that comes and God uses it. It's interesting that the lists aren't identical Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12,. They're not identical lists and you would think, why not?
Trent:Why aren't they?
Bob:identical.
Bob:One reason why they're not identical is because God knew what the church in Rome needed, and God knew what the church in Corinth needed, and so each person that comes to the church is gifted uniquely for the needs of that church. So even here at First Baptist, every person that's a member of our church is uniquely gifted by God, and he's brought them here to this place at this time to use those gifts together. The analogy Trent mentioned before is the body. We all need hands, we need fingers, we need eyes, we need heads, we need feet, and God puts all those things together. And what the church in Rome needed was something different, necessarily, than what the church in Corinth needed, and so they're unique that way.
Trent:And so potentially they're not comprehensive lists. There might be other gifts there might be.
Bob:Right.
Trent:That God might give a church at a time and a place.
Trent:But I think all of this, like it matters for us to have a big view of the local church Right, because that's what your gifts are given for. It matters for us to have a big view of the local church right, because that's what your gifts are given for and why they're given and their context for your spiritual gifts. So a person may have the ability to teach, but the Holy Spirit might discern that that church body has a lot of teachers, and so, instead of giving this body more mouths, it says man, I need to gift this church so that it has more hands or more feet. And so your gift is determined and given to you by God's Spirit. It's 1 Corinthians 12, chapter 12, verse 7. The Holy Spirit delivers or decides who gets what gift, because the Holy Spirit knows what a particular church, like you said, needs and what it doesn't need at the time, and that may change over time. People might move, might be sent out on mission, and so it needs another person with this gift or that gift.
Bob:I would also add to this conversation, to your question. I think God will take some of the things that we are passionate about and gift us in those areas. So if you're trying to discern what your giftedness is as a believer, there are tools we can use. I think we'll talk about those later on, but the first thing I would start saying is what's on your heart all the time.
Trent:What do you think about all the time?
Bob:What is God putting continually before you? And that's what I would say. God's leaning you that direction. Um so, if your passion is in um teaching or your passion is in um discipling or it's kind of it's, it's just helping, you don't want to be out front, you just want to be behind the scene, but you, every time you see somebody that's hurting, your heart hurts. Those are the ways you can start to discern. Okay, this is kind of way that God's gifting me. Is that helpful?
Kara:Yeah, very helpful, very helpful. I want to kind of touch on the, I don't know. When you read off the list, the ones that stuck out to me were like prophecy, healing, speaking in tongues and I think in Christian circles those are the ones that get a lot of focus. I mean, yeah, those are the ones that get a lot of focus Because they're very different. Yeah, they're very different and they are kind of more flashy, I guess.
Trent:They're clearly supernatural. Yeah, clearly supernatural. The others aren't supernatural, but they're clearly supernatural.
Kara:Yeah. So what is it about these spiritual gifts that I don't know? Why are we talking about them so much as opposed to other ones, and what does our church believe about these spiritual gifts?
Bob:Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. It's a great question. But no, it's a good question, there's a lot to unpack. Let's start by saying this you didn't have this on the list of questions.
Trent:I didn't, but I was curious and I know that people want to know, and then we can wrap it up.
Bob:Inquiring minds want to know, so broadly speaking, folks generally categorize the spiritual gifts into three categories. So there's the speaking gifts, the service gifts and then sign gifts right. Other people categorize them different ways, but that's generally speaking.
Trent:And that categorization is people understanding what's in Scripture? It's not necessarily from the Scripture Right, they're not in categories, exactly, that's just us trying to's not necessarily from the scripture Right, they're not they're not in categories Exactly.
Bob:That's just us trying to kind of systematize the giftedness.
Bob:Kind of like one does the old Testament law Correct Right. So speaking gifts would be like prophecy, teaching, uh, wisdom, knowledge, evangelism. And then service would be ministry giving, um administration, administration, faith, mercy, discernment. And then the sign gifts which are listed are ability to perform some form of a miracle, like healing somebody or healing itself, being one speaking in tongues, and then interpretation of tongues. There are two schools of thought on sign gifts, and Trent helped me with this. One is known as continuationism, which says that these gifts are still active within the body of Christ today.
Trent:They have continued from the early church.
Bob:Right, so that there are still people that God, through the Holy Spirit, uses to heal people, there are still people who speak in tongues that they did not know previously, and there are still people who can interpret tongues that they didn't know in other ways. That's continuationism. There's another school of thought called cessationism, which says that those particular gifts were given during a particular period of time, particularly the apostolic age, when the apostles were sent out prior to the word of God being written and canonized and distributed, and those gifts were used to verify their calling and verify their message. And so those gifts were used at that time so that people would say, well, I don't know if I can believe this guy or not, but I just watched him heal people. I don't know if this message is right, but there's this gift of tongue and he's just interpreted it, so they would use that to verify the message.
Bob:But because we have the word of God now, because it is canonized, because we have the complete revelation of God in Jesus Christ, there's no need for those anymore. And so the cessationist camp would say, no, those were for that particular period of time, they do not continue now. There's some that are hard in the continuationist camp and some that are hard in the cessationist camp, and then there's others that are kind of in the middle going well. I'm in this camp, but I'm open to the idea that maybe they do continue in certain settings. Trent, you have anything to add to that?
Trent:The Pentecostal church would be a continuationist movement. The Presbyterian church would be a cessationist movement. Baptist in the middle, on this topic, there might be some that are a little more continuationist, but not maybe embracing everything that the Pentecostals do. There'll be some that are more cessationist, and so even in a given church, even in leadership, there might be slight nuance to what someone holds on to here, and I want to be fair to both sides. Not every continuationist believes everything. Every other continuationist believes. So one might think, well, the gifts of speaking in tongues should not be in any way other than what the Bible describes. It should not just be random in a service.
Trent:There shouldn't be slaying the Spirit. That's not even a gift anyways. So not every continuationist is the same same and not every cessationist are the same cessationists. While they, uh, agree that healing is no longer a gift given to individuals, they still believe that God can heal an individual, of course, supernaturally, at any moment he wants to, um and any service that he wants to. So yeah, yeah, yeah, I.
Bob:I fall in the cessationist camp. I believe that those gifts were given for a particular period of time, for a particular purpose. Um, I have brothers that believe that those gifts continue. I would say two things about sign gifts. Number one they would have to be practiced biblically. There are clear instructions in the New Testament for how tongues and interpretation of tongues are to be used within the life of the church.
Trent:Let's just look at tongues for just a second, because you're mentioning tongues, because that's probably the most popular one to talk about. What are just a couple of those instructions that go against, maybe, what someone might think about tongues? Sure, and I would define tongues?
Bob:This is another issue. Is tongues an unknown language? Is it gibberish that somebody needs to enter? I understand tongues in the New Testament to be known languages that you didn't know before. I grew up in France, but all of a sudden I'm speaking German and I'd never been taught German. It's a known language, a glossary, and then the interpretation is somebody has to be there to interpret. So the instruction in the scriptures is it has to be organized. It has to be two, no more than three. Am I getting that right?
Trent:In a service? Yeah, In a service.
Bob:And anytime somebody speaks in tongues, there must be somebody there to interpret, otherwise it's just a resounding gong, it's just noise. So there are rules that follow. So the first thing I would say is, if sign gifts are being continued, if they're being used, they should follow what scripture teaches on them. The second thing I would say is all spiritual gifts are designed to point people to Christ. The Holy Spirit's role is to point people to Christ. Christ points people to the Father. The Holy Spirit points people to Christ, and if a gift of the Holy Spirit is drawing attention to an individual and not pointing them to Christ, it is not a proper use of the spiritual gift.
Trent:And the spiritual gift also. I just want to add this is not so that the one gifted gets new revelation.
Bob:No.
Trent:None of the gifts are about that, so no gift is given for new revelation, right, right, yeah, so you can be a continuationist and think canon's absolutely closed. That's not up in the air. Yeah, yeah, yeah and.
Bob:I've had brothers who are cessationists in the context of a Western culture, who have experienced things on the mission field in third world countries, and they can't explain it any other way than saying that that was some kind of spiritual gift that I have not experienced before healing or speaking.
Bob:And so they, they kind of I've not experienced that I've been to some of those situations I have not experienced before healing or speaking, and so they kind of I've not experienced that I've been to some of those situations. I've never experienced it. But I have some friends that have and they say, bob, I just I don't have a category for it in my theological Rolodex, I just don't. So yeah, so it's interesting in that regard.
Trent:But if I can speak to that, I think I mean I don't know this to be so. I don't have a chapter and verse for this, Okay. So be very careful listening to what I have to say in the next few sentences. In America we have access to training for a lot of different languages, right, lot of different Bible societies, a lot of different translation groups are actively translating the Bible in so many languages and taking it out.
Trent:But in Acts, chapter 2, you didn't have Rosetta Stone, right? And so God descended in a unique way upon the apostles so that the gospel would be proclaimed in all these different languages in a unique moment. So the gospel goes out. Right, in other parts of the world, missionaries go. They might encounter languages they have never, ever heard about before nor trained in. I mean, that might be a unique opportunity for the Holy Spirit to show up in a profound way to inhibit someone to speak a new language to the gospel shared. So it makes sense is all I'm saying, that it could happen in other parts of the world, unique to what it might happen in the West.
Bob:While you're talking about that, it also made me think. While it's an opportunity for the Holy Spirit, it's also an opportunity for the enemy of the Holy Spirit. I think all spiritual gifts can be, but sign gifts can be an opportunity for demonic um involvement. That that we're we're giving credit to the spirit when it's really not the spirit moving people. It might be a demon that's doing so, but you can say that about all gifts. But um, you just have to again where is the who's? Who's getting the glory?
Trent:Where's the?
Bob:attention being pointed. What's the purpose? In the use of the gift at that particular time. There's a lot to unpack there, but it's good stuff.
Kara:Our church doesn't hold a particular viewpoint on this. You align more with cessationism and Trent aligns more with continuation.
Bob:I'm right on the line. We don't have an official stated position.
Trent:Neither does the Southern Baptist Convention, which is helpful to know that we don't, and because I don't think you can be.
Bob:There's certain things, there's certain doctrine. You can be black and white on. This is one of those that you go okay, this is what I think Scripture teaches, this is what my experience through that says, but you have to be open to it.
Trent:Yeah, can I just say one more thing, not to just beat this dead horse, but some advocates of tongues say that there are kind of two different versions of tongues, including a kind of private prayer language, even though oftentimes it's not private and it's in a service. I think that might have been a little bit of the problem. Honestly, in 1 Corinthians 12 through 14, there was some gibberish you used that word earlier, some loud gibberish, and I would just encourage people struggling through is that the case? To go to Matthew, chapter 6, is it chapter 6 where? Yeah, chapter six, where Jesus talks about the Lord's prayer and one of the cautions that Jesus gives is don't be like the Gentiles, hurling up empty phrases, thinking that they'll be heard for mindless repetition. I would just kind of steer people to that direction.
Bob:I would encourage anybody just do some research on it, study spiritual gifts, have conversations with your pastor, with us, and just think through it.
Kara:Okay. So, all of this being said, we know that spiritual gifts are used to point others closer to Christ, draw others closer to Christ, are given to believers at salvation. So how is an individual to find a spiritual gift that they might have?
Trent:So you mentioned one thing earlier. Can I add on? Yeah, yeah, I've got a couple of things, but go ahead. You mentioned what was it that you mentioned Passions? Yes, thank you.
Trent:The way God's kind of wired us yeah so what are you passionate about, right, yeah, and I think that's really helpful in calling and in gifting, right? So, in calling man, is the Lord drawing you to go to this place? Is the Lord calling you to serve in this sort of way? Those are two good questions for two different things calling and gifting. Sure, I don't think the Lord is always working against what we want. So, on top of passion, I think the wisdom of your church and church leaders, hey, I think the Lord has gifted you in this way.
Bob:That would be my first category If I were to give advice to somebody who said hey, pastor, I don't know what my spiritual gift is. How can I find it? First, two things I'm going to talk about. What are you passionate about? What has God given you a heart for and what have other people told you? Go to other people who are around you, go to other believers, and say I'm not sure what my spiritual gift is. What do you think it is? I tell people all the time We've got the third way ways, a spiritual gifts inventory, though some questions that you can ask. It's not a perfect tool, it's not a. It's just a tool that might help discern these are your gifts. But I tell people all the time before you take that test, if I spend a week or two with you, as as a believer With some spiritual discernment, I think I would be able to say I think God's gifted you in this particular area. It's just doing life together.
Trent:Yeah, so passion the wisdom of others, believers and even church leaders. The only other third category I would say is where is there a need in your church? Because if the Holy Spirit wants to use all of us for the propagation of the gospel and the edification of the saints in a given church, and is there a need in your church? Because if the Holy Spirit wants to use all of us for the propagation of the gospel and the edification of the saints in a given church, and is there a need.
Trent:By his wisdom he may give you a gift to serve that need in that moment, so that your church is a better witness and better encouraged. So is there a particular need? Try it, and maybe you'll find that is not your gift. When we needed a lot of nursery Try it and maybe you'll find that is not your gift. We needed a lot of nursery workers. I'm going to hop in the nursery and serve. Okay, that's not my gift.
Bob:Exactly, and some of the things you're not passionate about probably not where your gift.
Trent:That's right. That's right. That's right. Anything else to add.
Kara:Okay, so the final question is what are your spiritual gifts and how did you discover them?
Bob:My primary two are teaching and administration and just discovered those through just how I'm wired. Number one, but just through experience, through practice, through the encouragement of others when given opportunities to teach the word, the feedback from other people. And the administration is just kind of how I'm wired anyway, but um yeah.
Kara:Is there a specific person that you can remember telling you that you were particularly gifted in that area?
Bob:In administration. Uh yeah, Previous pastors who I've told you before.
Bob:I've told you before who trusted me in those areas, um and and and I've told you before, I've told you before who trusted me in those areas and also I enjoy God's gifted me in that area, but it's also something I enjoy being very meticulous about things. My wife would make fun of me for these things, but everything has to have an order and everything has to have a place, and I think God's just wired me that way. I have other spiritual gifts, but those are the ones that tend to come out teaching, administration and leadership.
Kara:Do you have all of them?
Bob:I don't have all the gifts no there are gifts I don't have, trust me. But to Trent's point earlier, just because you don't have a particular spiritual gift, I don't have the gift of mercy, but it doesn't mean I should not be showing mercy at all times as a believer. So, trent, what are your?
Trent:gifts. I think they are teaching and serving yeah.
Bob:I would confirm that.
Trent:If you were to like no, that's not it. Where's that button? Yeah?
Bob:I got to find it, I haven't. I haven. That's not it. Where's that button?
Trent:Yeah, yeah yeah, I got to find it I haven't done it very well.
Bob:There it is, there it is. No, I would affirm this yeah, kara, what about you? Do you know what yours are?
Kara:I feel like maybe I've had a conversation or two with people in the past about it, but I can't say for sure that I know or that I've remembered them in any conversations.
Trent:What would you think? They are Romans? 12 includes hospitality Is that correct, I think hospitality is on your list. Hospitality Helps, hospitality.
Bob:Yeah, I would definitely put those in. Just being around you, how I see you interact with people you don't have to be the person up front, you're content to just see things get done from behind the scenes, and that speaks a lot. To just see things get done from behind the scenes, and that speaks a lot.
Trent:To just your, your giftedness. You think often of meeting with people. You open your up your home in some sort of way, or to look for someone's home to be open, to have a ministry of presence.
Bob:Yeah.
Kara:Can I ask a bonus question? We're at 45 minutes, but you know what this is going to be an episode that people listen to. It'll be on the website it. You know what this is going to be an episode that people listen to.
Kara:It'll be on the website, it'll be a resource. So what all is the benefit of really knowing? Because I feel like there's a lot of Christians perhaps, maybe like myself, where they just go about their Christian life and they just try their best to serve in the church and they don't really pinpoint, maybe like this is my spiritual gift or this isn't, but is there a benefit to really like finding that?
Bob:this isn't. But is there a benefit to really like finding that? Um, yeah, I would say a hundred percent there is, um, because those that are just kind of going through not really knowing how to they're, they're probably dissatisfied, and they're dissatisfied because the spirit won't let them be satisfied, because they're not using their gifts the way God intends them to use them. So I think there's great benefit in knowing and utilizing your gifts, because God gave them to you for a reason and he intends for you to use them. So I think there's benefit, both personal benefit, but also the reason you have them is to build up the body of Christ.
Bob:The body of Christ is never going to be what it's intended to be if all the gifts aren't being utilized in the church being utilized in the church. I used an illustration when I talked about this a few Sundays ago where I said if my right leg decided it didn't want to function, then all the rest of my body is working fine, but I'm always having to drag my right leg along. Well, I'm not functioning at 100% because my right leg is not using its gifts. And the same in the body of Christ If there are certain members of the body of Christ who are not using, they're not discovering and using their gifts, then we're not functioning at the level we're supposed to be, and so the church won't be where it's supposed to be. And I don't think the individual believer will be at a point where they're thriving in their walk with Christ because they're not utilizing everything that God's intended for them to utilize.
Kara:Good stuff. Well, thank you guys.
Trent:Thank you for this episode yeah.
Bob:You had a mic Exciting Fun having Kira officially on a microphone, that's nice.
Trent:All right, Well, hey, should I? Should I end with the extra thing you put on this little system?
Kara:I think you should All right.
Trent:Maybe you should do a little clap first. Oh, I pushed the wrong one. It's such a good episode, you ready?
Bob:Yeah, bye, have a great time, that's it Thanks.
