Unsexy Church
Unsexy Church
Season 2 Episode 42: The Churches of Revelation
In this Episode, Pastor Bob and Pastor Trent talk about the topic of one of our discipleship classes. Pastor Bob is teaching a class on the churches of Revelation. Our pastors discuss the historical and scriptural landscapes of the seven churches. As we reflect on the messages to each church, we emphasize the enduring lessons of faithfulness and failure, encouraging introspection on spiritual health and priorities. Tune in to this week's episode, and if you enjoy studying Revelation, consider joining Pastor Bob on Wednesdays at FBC for his discipleship class!
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Unsexy Church Podcast. How's it going?
Speaker 2:Are you talking to us or to the audience? I'm talking to you.
Speaker 1:Well, we don't know.
Speaker 2:You said hello everybody.
Speaker 1:Pastor Bob, how are you doing? I don't know who he's talking to Kara.
Speaker 2:Did you know who he was talking to? No, See how are you doing?
Speaker 1:I got a headache today, dude. No, I was talking to Kara. No see, that's why I can't tell you got a headache, if only.
Speaker 2:It's getting worse.
Speaker 1:Right as we start a podcast, do you have any remedies that you do for headaches? Drink a lot of water, take a nap.
Speaker 3:Do a handstand.
Speaker 2:Are you a Tylenol guy Handstand? Will that work? Yeah, then I just fall and it hurts my back.
Speaker 1:My back will hurt worse than my head. A handstand, that's like more blood to your head.
Speaker 3:You gotta hold it so that the blood rushes to your head.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I feel like that'd make it so much worse. I'd have a headache and then I'd pass out. What is the problem of the bone?
Speaker 3:There's different types. What happens is, you have too many conversations with Trent and then you have a headache, that's usually what happens in my life.
Speaker 1:Yes, thanks, guys, but more blood going to the brain, I feel like, would cause it to be a lot worse. You're probably right.
Speaker 2:Right, probably. Yeah, some of them are tension headaches. Mine today is like lack of sleep. I just haven't been sleeping.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Some of them are tension headaches Mine's today's, like lack of sleep. I just haven't been sleeping, oh yeah, so uh, do you? Are you a Tylenol guy? Are you a leave?
Speaker 2:Can't do a leave, can't do it. Why yeah, blood pressure?
Speaker 1:Does it have caffeine? No, it impacts blood pressure Interesting.
Speaker 2:Okay, cause.
Speaker 1:Because I know, like Excedrin, migraine has caffeine in it A lot of caffeine. Yeah, that's the primary yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, hey, we're back in studio. Enough about that.
Speaker 2:I think we were a week off. Yeah, we were in Knoxville last week, that's right, so you and I were not here that was fun. It was a good trip. It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:Had a to be up there and we'll be up there before we know it. Kara, how are you? How far away are you? When are you getting married? 17 days 17 days and it was coming soon. It is the 24th of November how exciting. Very cool.
Speaker 3:Very cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, first thing I need to do when I get off of here is set all that thing up with the Hillsborough County situation. Well, the election results came in. We're past election season, which means less phone calls, less phone calls, less text messages, text messages.
Speaker 2:Less, everything.
Speaker 1:Less political commercials and ads, less signs and street corners and all of the above Won't miss it. I got a scam call today. I'm like we're past election season but it wasn't about the election, so I feel like we're all slow moving. You've got a headache and I had coffee earlier and I'm feeling the low from the coffee. But hey, I have a few things that I want to talk about. The first is the fact of the day. Okay, Did you know that in ancient Egypt, servants were supposedly smeared with honey so that flies would flock to them instead of the Pharaoh? Wow, so if there's a fly problem, they said well, let's just make it a servant fly problem rather than a Pharaoh fly problem.
Speaker 3:I believe that. How sad is that.
Speaker 2:But once the flies stuck to the honey they wouldn't be as annoying as if they're flying around you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean yeah, but I doubt they got every square inch of their body right. I mean they probably got it on their hands, maybe put it on their back or something like that.
Speaker 2:They didn't just dip them in honey and make them walk down the main street of Cairo.
Speaker 1:You know I don't have details here. Pastor Bob, you brought the fact of the day.
Speaker 2:I'm just diving into this fascinating fact.
Speaker 1:Any ideas? Like are there some countries that have continents that have more problems with flies? Like, is there a lot of flies in Egypt? I think so.
Speaker 2:I think so. Kara says yes, so it must be true.
Speaker 1:Because there are certainly days like flies are a significant problem. I feel like Kara says yes, so it must be true, because there are certainly days like flies are a significant problem. I feel like there are also days it's like a saw flyer day, right, if you put honey on someone, are you just like attracting all the flies that wouldn't have been there otherwise.
Speaker 3:We should put honey on Trent. We should, and just let's test this theory.
Speaker 1:Sit outside? Yeah, hmm, so well, that begs the question. You know when there were swarms of you?
Speaker 2:know gnats and flies and stuff and the plagues. They put honey on the Israelites, hmm, to keep them away from Pharaoh, yeah.
Speaker 1:Maybe, maybe, as wrath of God increased, persecution potentially increased. Actually, no, it did, because he made them make bricks without straw. This is the weirdest conversation you know. Okay, I have a question for you. I got to wake up. Here we go. What's the weirdest gift? Okay, so let me give some context here. Baptists, and I am sure other denominations, include some very generous people. Pastors like ourselves are oftentimes the recipients of gifts of appreciation, right, pastor Bob? Would you be willing to share?
Speaker 3:No, what is the weirdest gift you've ever received? No, can you tell us who gave it to you? No, well, that's not what you can do.
Speaker 1:Could you share think of the weirdest gifts you have received and then cut out the ones that are involved in the last 16 years of your life, so that it's so far that the person's probably not listening to this podcast?
Speaker 3:I don't know.
Speaker 1:Can you think of any really interesting gifts you've received? This is not a weird gift, but when I was serving at Rondo Baptist Church in Flemington, missouri, it's the first pastorate that I served in. I was the lead pastor of a small country church the only pastor of a small country church and I would often get the produce from the farms of the people there, which was a huge blessing.
Speaker 2:That's so good. Oh, it was a huge blessing. Oh, it was a huge blessing. Yeah, we had that in Chiefland as well. What a blessing that was.
Speaker 1:But it was just kind of funny, like one day, you know, I'd go in to preach and that day I'm like going home with a bunch of cucumber right. Cucumbers, it was funny.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we had a peanut farmer in Chiefland and Darlene thought that it would be a great idea to have to pull the peanuts off the stock and everything. And the farmer's like you don't want to do that. She's like, yeah, I want to experience that. So they brought just like a truckload and dumped them in our front yard and Darlene had to start picking those peanuts off of there. And so the next year they came around and said wait, you want those peanuts?
Speaker 1:Yes, but so yeah, it was good. So that's a weird gift. It's not a bad gift. Bad doesn't necessarily mean weird.
Speaker 2:I got another weird gift.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in Little Rock, arkansas, when I was serving there, I was given a shotgun, which makes sense. It's Arkansas right, so I still have that shotgun. I have a pump action shotgun, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:A 12 gauge Remington shotgun.
Speaker 1:When you came into the church they said you know, had a couple guns but I did not have a shotgun and they said this is duck hunting territory, wabbit, you need a shotgun.
Speaker 2:He didn't get the joke.
Speaker 1:I was given wabbits. It's duck season Wabbit Elmer Fudd. Yes, elmer Fudd, yeah, yeah, so that was one of the weirder gifts. Can you think of any other ones have you ever received? Has Jaden ever given you a really weird gift?
Speaker 2:She's getting married at 17 days. She can't answer that question, yeah.
Speaker 1:I can't answer that question. He's probably given you some interesting gifts.
Speaker 3:No, jaden's. He's given me some good gifts. I would say he's a good gift giver, but I what's the of all the gifts he's given you? No there's no worst gift, no, but.
Speaker 1:I am thinking what. It doesn't have to be a bad gift, but it's the worst of the ones you received.
Speaker 3:I don't even know, I can't even think of all good things.
Speaker 2:What's the worst gift that you've ever received from your wife?
Speaker 1:Yeah, answer that Writtle me that I don't want to answer that.
Speaker 3:But we have been receiving a lot of gifts like from like, for because we're getting married, you know, and so just a lot of stuff has been coming in and there there is a gift. That was a little strange, that you know, I don't know, but it's, it's not someone here? It's not bad, I'm, you know, I'm, no, no, I can't, I can't.
Speaker 1:He's trying to was the environment, the strange part of it, no, okay, no, but it was like.
Speaker 3:It was like you know, someone sees something and they think of you and they're like we got this for you because we thought of you and it was strange. It was strange. I can tell you maybe after this is over, because I it's still, it was still too close to I. Just I don't think anyone's going to hear this, who gave it at all, but it's still strange.
Speaker 1:Did you ever get like half a cow or anything like that from any church members?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that was a huge blessing. That wasn't a bad gift, that was an awesome gift, but weird maybe to some people like it gave you half a cow as a gift, yeah, side of beef. It was awesome. Someone gave you half a cow. Yeah, we got a quarter cow. I had to go buy a freezer. There was so much meat.
Speaker 1:It was so good. We got a quarter cow from a family in Mount Vernon and then we would get half a cow from my father-in-law, who has plenty of cows.
Speaker 3:That's amazing.
Speaker 1:Huge gift yeah.
Speaker 2:Great gift, amazing gift.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Great gift. Any other weird gifts you can think of.
Speaker 2:None that I'm sharing. No, I feel like I probably have one, but I can't think this is questions we can't answer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that's why people are listening. They're like oh, are they going to say something? I give them that gift.
Speaker 3:People who give gifts love you.
Speaker 1:They're very kind, that's right. So it's like what are you?
Speaker 2:going to say Okay, do you re-g?
Speaker 1:I've regifted gifts before, but I don't think I've regifted any bad ones. So for our wedding, for whatever reason, we got three toaster ovens three of the same toaster oven, sure. And so when we went to a wedding I wasn't necessarily super close with the people. It's been a while. I've already given them all away. But if we weren't super close with that couple, it was an easy gift to give. That was substantial. It was $50, $60 toaster oven. If we knew them personally, we knew they didn't have it on their registry we wouldn't give them that. But if we did not know the couple, we'd hey we wanted to give you a toaster oven.
Speaker 1:They were sitting in our closet for a while. All right, here we go. Would you rather, maybe two? Would you rathers, pastor Bob? Would you rather never have a life?
Speaker 2:Never have a life. That's not very nice. No, I feel like this is written weird.
Speaker 1:I'm reading it out loud Would you rather get rid of air conditioning or get rid of deodorant, if you had to get rid of one For myself?
Speaker 2:or for others.
Speaker 1:For yourself, but it affects others.
Speaker 2:Yes, but if they have deodorant it doesn't affect me as badly. Correct, but everybody doesn't want to see you, You're just getting rid of deodorant period.
Speaker 1:No getting rid of deodorant for yourself so you can experience air conditioning the rest of your life or you cannot put on deodorant the rest of your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll take the AC. You want the AC for sure, for sure, in Florida, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, kira, you can find other alternatives for deodorant.
Speaker 1:Sure, you can move to Alaska, though, for air conditioning. Yes, but you didn't. But that's significant, yes, that's true.
Speaker 3:I feel like I would rather have the deodorant than the air conditioning.
Speaker 1:No way.
Speaker 3:Well, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Do you know how hot it gets in this?
Speaker 2:office.
Speaker 3:What would you rather have? We'd rather you have deodorant.
Speaker 1:You can have the deodorant.
Speaker 3:We'll take the air conditioning I would rather have, but then you guys are going to be disgusting.
Speaker 1:That's fine, you can stay away. You can stay away, I'll stay cool.
Speaker 2:It doesn't say you can't use other products. Okay.
Speaker 3:Alright Kara. What an answer, Because they're all smelling like natural deodorant over here, then no one else is thinking that.
Speaker 1:Kara, I'm trying to think he doesn't even know what his button is Nope. I don't, I was trying to read what they were. Okay, hey, we have a topic. So did you go AC and not deodorant, for sure. For sure, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, so we can remain cool and comfortable and we don't have to smell Kara, she's going to be she's going to have deodorant. We're going to be in the air conditioning. Yeah, I mean whatever you know. You know she's okay with it. What is the worst smell?
Speaker 2:Is it BO or is it like burping? I'm not a BO fan. A BO smells very sour yeah not a fan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, our topic of the day we are doing our Wednesday night classes. They're back in session. So every Wednesday night we have three options for adults in the life of our church to attend. There is a class on discipleship and having groups of individuals that are discipling one another. Led by Pastor Darren, I'm doing a class on Baptist history so who are all these Baptists and where do they come from? And then there's a third class, the most attended class, well-attended class, is Pastor Bob's class and it's the Seven Churches of Revelation. I want to go to your class.
Speaker 2:I really do. I would love to refresh on Baptist history.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we talked about John of Leiden or Jan. Come on now, it's well attended, thank you. It's Jan of Leiden, who was an Anabaptist I mean truly a cult leader in Münster, germany, and we talked about how he had 15 wives, wore a gold medallion that said he was the king of righteousness and proclaimed to not only be the king of Moonstar but the messianic king of Jerusalem.
Speaker 2:Wild. I'm going to pass on the 15 wives, but I'll take the gold chain. The gold chain.
Speaker 1:The king of righteousness, but because of his anarchy and trying to set up a theocratic state, the Catholic Church did not like it took over the country from him and then paraded him around on a chain. So things did not go well for Jan Bokkelsen. In fact, I think that Moonstra experiment only lasted like a year, and so it was very short-lived.
Speaker 2:See, these are the kind of little historical tidbits that are fun to learn.
Speaker 1:There are some fun things. Yeah, these are the kind of little historical tidbits that are fun to learn. There are some fun things. Yeah, there are also things like Luther had. While we have a great debt to Luther for the reforms that he made, he also had a great mouth on him. And so he would make some comments here and there that are quite funny, some of which we have to substitute with different words, so we'll talk a little bit about that last night as well.
Speaker 2:Cool See that's what I would. I get to hear myself teach all the time. I'd love to come sit on one of your classes.
Speaker 1:Do you know the phrase where Luther had? I can't remember the cardinal's name, but Luther had been confronted by the Catholic Church and he had to stand before a cardinal. This is before the Diet of Worms, and at the time the Gutenberg Press had been around, and so not only were books being copied at a rapid rate, but they were able to even do cartoons and publications very quickly, and so there were certain things that Luther had said that were comical and were put into comic strips, and after a certain meeting with a cardinal that was public, he said that that cardinal was about as fit to handle that meeting as a donkey would be to play a harp, and so a picture of a donkey with that quote was circulating around Germany.
Speaker 1:So you know, it's very picturesque, sounds very much like Luther. Yeah, all right, hey, so we want to talk about the seven churches of Revelation.
Speaker 1:Now when you say Revelation, people's eyes open wide and their ears perk up. What is happening today? Right, years per cup. What is happening today? Right, but the seven churches of Revelation in the first three chapters primarily chapter two and chapter three were the initial recipients of the letter. Let's talk about them in this podcast. So I already just kind of said a little bit about seven churches, but let's back up a little bit the book of Revelation as a whole. What are we talking about in the book of Revelation?
Speaker 2:We're talking about God peeling back the curtain and revealing to his servant John, who is on the island of Patmos. Is this the disciple? This is the disciple whom Jesus loved? That John, not John the Baptist, is it?
Speaker 1:weird that he wrote that he was so well loved and a better writer than Peter in his own gospel. He's the humble guy who says I'm faster than you.
Speaker 2:That's right. So he's on the island. It's a penal colony. He's there because they've tried to kill him and can't kill him. So they've exiled him to this island. It's at the end of his earthly life. He's looking back over his life in ministry, his life with Christ, all the churches that he planted and pastored, and now he has no control over it and he's probably sitting there wondering how the church is doing. There's great persecution that's broken out. There is those that are coming into the church trying to cause harm within the church, and so he's struggling and God just kind of peels back the curtain of heaven and says let me just give you a revelation, a revealing, a prophetic vision, a prophetic vision of what's going on right now, what has happened and what's going to take place. So that's, in a nutshell, what Revelation is.
Speaker 1:So those who take the later date of the writing of Revelation, which I think we probably both do. Jerusalem has fallen, the church has been scattered and is alive and well, but evading a lot of persecution. And well, but evading a lot of persecution. The Roman emperors are, at that point in time, if we're looking at, like 80, 90, are starting to target Christians in ways that they may have seen them as a nuisance before. And so John is writing this letter. He addresses it to seven different churches in Asia Minor, he's told to address it to these particular seven churches, who I believe are actual churches.
Speaker 2:That's probably one of the next things you're going to talk about there.
Speaker 1:In that day they were, they were seven actual churches in those cities along a common trade route.
Speaker 2:So these were letters that God said write these things and send it to the angel, the messenger of this particular church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in the vision of the Son of man in chapter one, if I'm not mistaken, we've got the lampstands. The churches are the lampstands. It's symbolic of the light of the world right Of Christ. They're holding the light of the world right of Christ, holding the light of Christ to the world that they live in, and Christ is walking amongst the lampstands. He is present with his people, even though they're surviving and thriving in persecution. This letter would have been sent with like a courier. How did John get this letter to these churches?
Speaker 2:So he's on an island. Yeah, so he's on an island, so it has to be taken like a courier.
Speaker 3:How did, how did? How did john get this?
Speaker 2:letter to these churches. So he's on an island, yeah, so he's on an island, so it has to be taken through a courier. So a courier is probably taking these letters to the churches, if not even a circular concept. So the church that was. The letter written to ephesus was probably read there, then taken to smyrna and they read it as well. But they were, the letters were specifically written to those church, individual churches. So, uh, they were taken by some form of a courier to take them.
Speaker 2:Um, as john is receiving this vision from god, he hears a voice, he turns to see the voice. He then gives the depiction of what christ looks like and, as you said, he's standing amongst these seven lampstands. We don't have to guess what those seven lampstands are. It's told in chapter one that they are the churches, but it also says he's holding in his hand the seven stars or the seven messengers, the seven angels, who? Folks interpret that differently. Some think those are literally heavenly angels and each church has an angel. Some think they're different beings. I think they represent the messenger, the pastor of the of those churches. So he's writing this and saying, okay, write what you hear, what you see, to the church in Ephesus, right to the church in Pergamum right this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you didn't. You didn't ask what I think of the. I'm kidding.
Speaker 2:I assumed you think correctly, like I do. That's correct.
Speaker 1:So once we get to the writing to each individual church, it seems Okay. So in the New Testament you have, like, philippians and Colossians and Ephesians and these are letters written by Paul to specific churches the church at Ephesus, the church at Philippi, the church at Colossians and Ephesians. And these are letters written by Paul to specific churches the church at Ephesus, the church at Philippi, the church at Colossae. This particular letter, where John was told to write what he had seen and what the Lord revealed to him, is written to seven different churches, and those churches, just like the other letters in the New Testament, all have specific issues, are doing some things well and doing some things that Not so well. Help us see how this book is one story, one vision, but for seven churches.
Speaker 2:Sure. So each of these churches has particular issues. They have individual members there, they're in locations that are different from one another, and so as we read the letters, we have to see a few things. One we have to put it in its cultural context, so we need to learn about the cities that they're living in. So the church in Ephesus is facing some different things than the church in Smyrna. The church in Smyrna is facing different things than the church in Philadelphia. We can also see if there is a history of how the church started in the Bible. Church of Ephesus. We can read Acts, chapter 19, and see how that church started.
Speaker 2:Church in Smyrna the only thing we know about the church in Smyrna is written right here in Revelation, chapter 2. Each of the letters has a common pattern, so they're very similar, even though they're different in what they say. They're similar so there's always a commendation. Well, first it starts with a picture of Christ. Each letter starts with a vision of Christ, um, which comes from the prologue in chapter one of John's vision. So there's a, there's a picture of Christ in each one that speaks to those individual churches. For instance, smyrna, a church that's being persecuted, a church where church members are going to jail and dying. The vision of Christ is the one who was dead and is now alive, the first and the last, the one who was here at the beginning and will be here at the end, the one who was killed and is now alive. That's going to speak to those that are being persecuted, is killed and is now alive. That's going to speak to those that are being persecuted. So there's a picture of Christ.
Speaker 2:Then there is a commendation. Jesus says you're doing this well to five of the seven churches. Sardis and Laodicea are the only two that don't receive a commendation. He doesn't tell them they're doing anything well. There's then condemnation. You've done this well, but I have this against you and against five of the seven churches. There's a condom date condemnation. Smyrna is not condemned, nor is Philadelphia. They don't receive commendation condom condemnation.
Speaker 2:Then there is a correction for those who have been condemned. Jesus said this is what you've done wrong. Therefore, do this to correct it. There's a correction For the churches that don't receive a condemnation. There is a continuation Continue to do these things.
Speaker 2:And then there is a commitment. Christ makes a promise To him who overcomes, I will give the crown of life. So there is a promise to each or a commitment to each one, so there's a common pattern there that we can see. Each one ends in the exact same way. Let him who has ear hear what the Spirit says to the churches plural. So it's not just what the Spirit says to this particular church, but you need to know what it says to all the churches. So while I think these were letters written to particular churches in that particular time, I think they speak to the church today as a whole and we can learn from each of them. Some would say that these represent churches in different periods of time or different stages that the church has gone through, and that may or may not be true. I tend to think that these are letters written to individual churches that speak as a whole to the church today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think we can see, I mean, if we take this to be like, in some ways, a letter from John as a pastor or leader over some of these churches, who had experience with these churches, when Paul writes his letter to the church in Ephesus, that book of the Bible preached by pastors today was not directly written to us, but was certainly written for the church at all times and all places. Same is true of these seven churches. They are struggling with things that we would struggle with today, maybe not specific to, you know, temple prostitutes, but surely to lust right. Maybe not specific to ways in which they could, you know, gain money or authority, but surely to greed and a hunger for power. So there are general you each one of the letters, each one of the specific addresses to the churches.
Speaker 1:I think you mentioned something there that I just want to put my finger on, when you said that it gives a picture of Christ. Every time you know to the church at Ephesus, be reminded of Christ, who is blank. You also mentioned that that coordinates with the commendation or the condemnation how pastoral of John right.
Speaker 1:When we, as pastors, might sit down in our office and we talk about the Lord to someone struggling with guilt over their sin or with a hunger for their sin. We would remind them of the God who is a judge in one case, but in another case of the God who is a gracious Savior In the other case. Right, both are true. It takes a pastor to know what reminder needs to be given to a particular person, and so how pastoral are these letters John's thinking through? God is the great judge, god is the merciful Savior, god is the Father who does not leave you nor forsake you, and he does this kind of work in each church because of the predicament or problem that they're dealing with each one.
Speaker 2:He points them to Jesus in some way he points them to Jesus, which is really what Revelation is, really what all the Bible is but Revelation. If we get caught up in all the eschatology and all the symbolism in the book of Revelation and we don't see Jesus, we miss the point. Jesus is the point of Revelation. You and we don't see Jesus, we miss the point. Jesus is the point of Revelation. You know the coming king who will reign and rule. We miss the point if we miss Jesus. And so he points them, every one of the churches, he points straight to Jesus. So very pastoral.
Speaker 1:The call to conquer at the end is a call to continue in the faith by the power of the Spirit, so that you might receive the crown of life or eternity with Christ forever. He might word it differently, but the hope is. Christ is with you. Be faithful to Christ. He will return for you right. No matter what you go through, continue to be faithful. Anything you want to point out Maybe you want to say something about Ephesus or Laodicea, anything about any specific church. You want to say something about Ephesus or Laodicea, anything about any specific church you want to point out.
Speaker 2:There's something in each one of them for us that we can learn.
Speaker 1:Some of them were like Ephesus, some of them are opposites of one another, sure, so Ephesus, for example, seemed to be like I use terms when I preach to the seven churches the doctrinal church on defense, almost kind of like losing their love for God and man. But man, they've got their doctrine right, right, and so, um, they've become calloused, maybe because of, um, the need to consistently fight off poor doctrine. Maybe the book of Acts kind of hints toward that, um, and then you've got a church like was it Thyatira? That was just super tolerant, right, allowing different teaching to come in and allowing different practices to continue in the life of their members, and so one was almost too intolerant, right of the unbelieving people coming in, it seems like Ephesus, and one was too tolerant of well, here's a platform for you which could be said of churches today.
Speaker 1:One might lean a little bit too on the. This is our church, our holy huddle. Another church might say who's in charge?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's the contrast there between a church that um is faithful to doctrinal fidelity I've just been redundant, but they've. They've been faithful to doctrine and yet he says I have this against you. You've left your first love, uh whereas Thyatira, you guys are tolerating sin and you're not standing up for doctrinal. You may be loving people, but you're not really loving them because you're not standing up for doctrinal integrity. So yeah, they're all interesting. Smyrna is a church where he says you have nothing. I see the persecution, I see that they've taken everything from you, yet you're rich. And then to oh, is it Laodicea that he says you guys think you're wealthy, but that's not Laodicea, sardis, sardis yeah, sardis was the nominal church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he says you think you have everything, but you're nothing.
Speaker 1:When I taught on these, I thought of different churches of today and maybe over-characterizing different churches, but Sardis was the church that had a really big building, a really big fountain in the front. Their name was everywhere right, they were a good branded church, which none of those are bad things. The problem was what was visible was not what was accurate. Laodicea, it's the church that probably receives the strongest rebuke, because Laodicea is the church that makes Jesus want to puke. He says I'll spit you out of my mouth. Made his stomach sick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so just briefly, Ephesus is the church that worked hard, but they lost their love. They left their love.
Speaker 3:They intentionally left love.
Speaker 2:Smyrna is the church that is persecuted and yet remained faithful in everything. Pergamum is the worldly church. They let the outside world come in. Thyatira is the church that trivialized sin those that came in and they didn't address sin. Sardis is the church that looked alive on the outside but they're dead on the inside. The Holy Spirit's not present. Philadelphia is a church that has an open door. They are at an open door to take the gospel. And then Laodicea is the church that didn't think they needed Jesus.
Speaker 1:Was Philadelphia, the really small church, like the small group but faithful. Maybe I think that was Philadelphia that, or it was one of the two, smyrna or Philadelphia, really small but like the faithful few.
Speaker 3:I think that was.
Speaker 1:Philadelphia, I can't remember. They were patient, they were enduring, they'd been persecuted, yeah, yeah. So, as you think of just the landscape of the church in America, which is a pretty broad brush, there are ways in which any of these letters could represent any churches in America are ways in which any of these letters could represent any churches in America. What's one that you think just is a message needed for the church in America?
Speaker 2:I think they all are. Honestly, I mean, I don't know that I can just say, okay, the church in America, the church in Western culture. I think we all need to look at our own churches and say where do we fit here? Ephesus, the church that was the loveless church. You've left your love.
Speaker 2:When Paul wrote to that church 40 years earlier, he commended them for their love. He says I've heard about the way I praise God for the way you've loved the saints. They were known for their love. Something happened in 40 years where now, when Christ writes to that church, he says you guys don't have any love, you've become Pharisees, you've become legalists. And so I think we all, as individuals and as churches, we have to examine and say okay, are we going down a path of emphasis here? Are we putting up a facade of everything's great and we've got these wonderful ministries and our buildings look great, but there's no power in this place? You know I, so to say, the church in America is one of these.
Speaker 2:I don't know that I can pinpoint one. I think we all just have to say, okay, let's be honest and look at our own lives. Are we trivializing sin? Are we over emphasizing doctrine above love or love above doctrine, rather than finding that balance? Um, yeah, do we recognize the open door that is before us to take the gospel? So I, yeah I don't know if I'm answering your question. No, I think so.
Speaker 1:I think I think too, um, and this is maybe a different stream of a conversation I think sometimes when we read this, what we think is most important of the things that God commends, we see that as the better church if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Oh man, can you believe the church at Thyatira let all that false teaching in Ephesus really had it right? It's like, okay, well, hold on. Thyatira is commended for their love. So let's be honest, love is important. Jesus sees them as a loving church. But let's also see the fact that Ephesus, as great as you might think they are, they did not love. That's a serious problem, and so we want to take all of the commendations of all of the churches for what they are and say, okay, this is what Jesus wants. He doesn't prefer necessarily Ephesus over Thyatira. He prefers doctrinal fidelity and genuine love. So we want to take all the commendations and then follow Jesus in his call to conquer or overcome, be faithful and endure, and we need to take all of the condemnations as warnings to do self-evaluation.
Speaker 2:To look inwardly, are we doing what these churches were guilty of doing? Yeah, if Jesus were to write an eighth letter to the First Baptist Church of Tampa, what would be in it? What would he commend us for and what would he condemn us for?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good, that's good. Any other thoughts? Um, why? Why should someone take time to study the seven churches of?
Speaker 2:revelation. Cause Jesus wrote the letters and put them in the Bible?
Speaker 1:because it's in the Bible because it's there?
Speaker 2:Uh, no, because that is true, but because it is a. In many ways it is a cautionary tale, but it's also a revelation that Jesus still cares about his church. He is still walking amongst the lampstands, he is still holding the messengers in his hands. He's not absent, he cares, he sees. So he sees what's going on. Nothing that happens to the church goes without God's notice. He cares about what takes place, but it also means he's paying attention, he's watching, and that should teach us okay, this is his church, it's not our church. He died for it, he cares for it. So how are we being good stewards of the church, not just as pastors, but as members of a church? How are we stewarding that which God gave us?
Speaker 1:Because Christ cares, yeah that which God gave us, because Christ cares. Yeah, the point at which you know the point of each of these letters is Jesus desires his church to endure, to conquer, to be with him on the day that he returns. So you want to know how to do that. Here's a letter. Here's a letter. Right, all right? Well, thanks for listening in everybody. Any thoughts, comments, questions? Concerns 17 days away until you get married, kara. So exciting.
Speaker 3:All right.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm excited If you're not a part of a Wednesday night class and you're thinking you know Baptist history really, really, really, really, really sounds fun, but it's just not my time to study Baptist history. Make sure that you go and learn more about each individual church, the seven churches of revelation on Wednesday nights called love letters, I believe, uh sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's what we called it this time.
Speaker 1:All right, all right. Well, if that's it, I want to press the music this time. Here we go. See you later, just kidding. Bye, have a great time, just kidding. Bye, have a great time.
