Unsexy Church
Unsexy Church
Season 2 Episode 48: On Idols and Graven Images
In today's episode, Pastor Trent and Pastor Bob discuss the second commandment, where the people of the Lord were commanded, "“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them nor serve them;"" and our Pastor talk about what this commandment means in the lives of believers.
Good morning, good afternoon and good night. Just kidding, it's a good afternoon. How are you guys?
Speaker 2:It's afternoon while we're recording.
Speaker 1:You don't know when they're listening, that's right, they could be listening and taking a sip out of their coffee right now. They could, or they could be.
Speaker 2:I don't know what they're doing, or they?
Speaker 3:could be listening to the podcast to go to sleep.
Speaker 2:I could put them to sleep. They could be. Are they out for a jog or they're just driving in their car? Whatever time of day it is that they're listening.
Speaker 1:Hello, what if they're right now about to eat some leftover Christmas candy? That's very specific and right now they're like oh, he just spoke to me because I am currently eating some leftover Christmas candy. That's very specific. And right now they're like oh, he just spoke to me because I am currently eating some October Christmas candy. If that's you, you should leave a rating and review.
Speaker 3:You should.
Speaker 1:That's just. I'm not prophetic, never claimed to be, but maybe that's you and if it is, you should leave a rating and review.
Speaker 2:Is this like pre-wrapped Christmas candy? Because otherwise that'd be like really old Christmas candy.
Speaker 1:Oh, definitely pre-wrapped. We're talking about what's in the stocking, like the little Reese's cups.
Speaker 2:The candy cane that's still in the little wrapper, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:They need to find a better way to package candy canes the larger candy canes, the small ones that have an oversized wrapper great. The big candy canes that are like tightly wrapped like saran wrap, almost so difficult to open if, if they don't have a you know little sleeve kind of, you kind of pull and it pulls the whole thing kind of off. You know what I'm talking about. Sometimes they'll have like the pocket and you almost like these first world problems you have are so challenging.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think a lot of people use them to decorate. That's why you know, that's why not a lot of people are out here munching on those I don't know.
Speaker 1:But why were candy canes invented?
Speaker 2:There is a story behind candy canes, but I don't know how accurate it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you hear like it's a shepherd's staff and you turn it sideways and it's the letter J for Jesus and red is the blood us clean?
Speaker 2:I don't know how accurate all that is.
Speaker 3:But like is that?
Speaker 1:really what the guy was thinking when he was making candy canes.
Speaker 2:Don't know, how did we get on this topic?
Speaker 1:I don't know. There's no way to know. No way to know Except for AI slash, google slash, our podcast assistant researcher, lady Cara, you can talk in the mic if you'd like to what?
Speaker 3:do you got?
Speaker 1:AI is quick, you can talk in the mic if you'd like to. What do you?
Speaker 3:got AI is quick. The origin of the candy cane is a popular story that dates back to 1670 in Cologne, Germany.
Speaker 1:No one can say we're not historic. On the podcast.
Speaker 3:A choir master at Cologne Cathedral gave sugar sticks to his choir boys to keep them quiet during Christmas Eve mass to honor the shepherds in the story Seems like that would not keep them quiet.
Speaker 1:I guess if they've got it in their mouth they can't talk and eat.
Speaker 3:Oh.
Speaker 2:But giving sugar to kids to keep them quiet doesn't seem like the best plan.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Wait to honor the shepherds in the story he bent the candy canes. So it is the candy sticks to them in the shape of the shepherd's crooks, the white and the color represents the Christian belief in Jesus' sinless life. So I think all the things are correct.
Speaker 2:Come on, we found it on the internet, it must be true From Cologny, germany.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's Cologny. No, it's Cologny. It looks like Cologny. You said it right, he's just messing with you.
Speaker 2:It just looks like Cologny.
Speaker 1:Like Bologna.
Speaker 2:Bologna, yep, everybody. That was the podcast to go to sleep Success.
Speaker 1:No, they're definitely awake now. They were Googling it to see if they could get research faster.
Speaker 3:They are snoring right now?
Speaker 1:I don't think so. I think they're having a blast. You were about to say something while we were talking about Calogne and then the Shepherd staff. What were you about to say?
Speaker 2:I was just getting us back on track, on track. This is the banter section this is the track.
Speaker 1:We are on the track. Hey, Pastor Bob, did you know? Kara, did you know that the lyrebird L-Y-R-E not lyre like L-A-R?
Speaker 2:L-I-A-R.
Speaker 1:Let me spell lyre right L-I-A-R, L-Y-R-E. The lyrebird can mimic almost any sound. It hears. A lyrebird.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:I listened to the lyrebird about two minutes before this podcast. Did you know that wildlife watchers have recorded the Australian species, copying not only other birds but other animals like koalas, and artificial sounds such as car alarms, camera shutters and even chainsaws? This is crazy. I actually have it pulled up. We're going to listen to it, and it looks like and sounds like this was a video podcast. It looks and sounds like they're adding the audio after. Are you ready for this?
Speaker 2:So this is you get interested in the most strange thing.
Speaker 1:This is David Attenborough, of course, from.
Speaker 2:BBC Wildlife here we go.
Speaker 1:Ready for this? So different sounds. You'll hear the chainsaw at the end.
Speaker 3:It's a very convincing impersonation. Here we go.
Speaker 1:Even the original is fooled, so impersonating other animals right now other birds.
Speaker 2:He can imitate the calls of at least 20 different species.
Speaker 3:He also, in his attempt to out sing his rivals, incorporates other sounds that he hears in the forest.
Speaker 2:That was a camera shutter.
Speaker 3:Wait for the chainsaw.
Speaker 1:And again Camera shutter, here we go Hi.
Speaker 3:The sounds of foresters and their chainsaws working nearby.
Speaker 2:Here we go.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's wild. Did you hear the saw at the end? Yes, it sounds like a chainsaw with trees falling in the distance in a forest. That's pretty insane. I thought that was cool. That's quite interesting. I'm glad you guys aren't excited about God's creation over here. That was pretty cool.
Speaker 3:No, I think it's funny because it's not the true sound, so it's almost like the liar bird is.
Speaker 1:A liar L-A-I-R. L-i-a-r Lying.
Speaker 2:Pretty cool, though it's great. I thought it was cool. It's like a hyper-talented parrot.
Speaker 1:Exactly yeah, but a chainsaw sound. I mean you've got to figure out your vocal cords. I didn't buy the chainsaw sound it sounded more like R2-D2.
Speaker 2:The saw, though the saw was more authentic. The back and forth, the chainsaw, was a little.
Speaker 1:I think he missed on that one. Okay, you're a sports ball fan, pastor Bob. A sports ball, you're a sport man. I'm not sure, what all that means, but so there were some different sports analysts that put together what are supposedly the eight hardest positions to play in the most popular us sports.
Speaker 2:So this does not include, like, tennis or golf, because there's no positions in tennis or golf all right, so you're thinking like football and basketball and baseball, and hockey us sports okay, so it's going to be multiple positions in each of those sports, because there aren't eight team sports that are popular in the united states, sure?
Speaker 1:correct. So out of the top eight, there are multiple positions in the same sport. Okay, so, um, let's just so you can shout out, and you have to give a number to them. And I'm in the United States, sure, correct. So out of the top eight, there are multiple positions in the same sport. So let's, just so you can shout out, and you have to give a number to them, and I'm going to tell you where they're on that list. So start guessing. I've got the list right here, pulled up in front of me, and you're trying to guess what are?
Speaker 1:the eight hardest positions.
Speaker 2:They're going to say NFL quarterback, somewhere near the top of that quarterback is number six.
Speaker 1:Quarterback is number six.
Speaker 2:It's not the hardest um, I would say a pitcher in baseball any specific type of pitcher starting pitcher actually starting pitchers, not on the top eight.
Speaker 1:Well, they don't know what they're talking about.
Speaker 2:A relief pitcher is how is a relief pitcher a harder thing to do than a starting?
Speaker 1:pitcher. You read the article. Here we go, I don. Relief pitcher was number three and it says that, no matter what circumstance, a relief pitcher must be ready to produce and deliver at all times, whether it is nursing a one-run lead, keeping the game within reach after the starting pitcher handed the ball over to you, with multiple runners on base and the game in the balance, nursing a comfortable lead yada y nursing and comfortable lead.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, yeah. A relief pitcher comes in and gets one out, maybe two or three. A starting pitcher has to go multiple innings, facing the batting lineup multiple times. Well, pastor bob, if only you're a sports analyst, if only okay, so you're two for two on getting the top eight okay, pitcher, and, and so I would say goalie and hockey, perhaps goalie in hockey is number five Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah three for three on getting top eight Yep yep.
Speaker 2:It's not really a hitter in baseball is really hard, but I don't think they're considering that a position player.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's not a position player, I won't take that one. You have three lives, by the way, you've still got all three lives. You're three for three.
Speaker 2:Wow, wow, come on sports guy. Is one position in basketball harder than the other four positions on the court? Apparently Guard, I would assume Shooting guard, point guard.
Speaker 1:Which one are you going to go with? Point guard? Point guard's number eight. Okay, point guard's number eight.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because you have to handle the ball a little more than the shooting guard right. Sure sure and still shoot like a shooting guard, Right.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to go back to football and they're probably going to say running back or wide receiver. They're going to look at the skill positions.
Speaker 1:Actually, there's your first life gone. Really, and I may take two lives from me. Because he said two positions there, I'll take one for now. Make sure you guess one at a time. He's so neither.
Speaker 2:Neither are topic. How benevolent are you. Neither one are top eight middle linebacker, then how about that?
Speaker 1:middle linebacker is also not on the list. So you have two lives going so think there are plenty of football positions. I say plenty. There's two more football positions on here. Yeah, center football positions. I say plenty, there's uh, two more football positions on here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, center center is not on the list. What do these people know about sports? One life. Who are these?
Speaker 1:analysts that you are referring to. I would say not that I would have automatically known this position being the top eight hardest, but so they're going to say tackle, because they have to guard the outside rusher tackle left. Tackle is number seven right. Okay, so there's one football position. It is a tick tock, but it's also it's from I found the actual article so that they're referring to um. So this position has been debated as one of the hardest positions, if not the hardest position in in football.
Speaker 2:Um, it is a defensive position you want me to name all of them no, try to think of what.
Speaker 1:What people, people say is the. It is a defensive position. You want me to name all of them? No, try to think of what people say is the hardest. Do you know that that's a position.
Speaker 3:I know nothing about sports ball.
Speaker 2:Okay, I mean, you're talking free safety, you're talking cornerback, you're talking nose tackle. Out of the three of those, cornerback is number two of eight hardest positions to play.
Speaker 1:It says cornerback. Okay, two of eight hardest positions to play. It says Cornerback.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:You not only have to kind of be able to receive, but also you've got to guard the receiver.
Speaker 2:They play cornerback because they can't catch Well.
Speaker 1:So that's what you might think, but it says it's harder, more difficult yeah.
Speaker 2:What other sport are we missing here?
Speaker 1:All right, so you have a soccer position. I'm still letting you have one soccer position. They actually list a soccer position they do.
Speaker 2:I'm going to assume they don't know what they're talking about in that either, but I would assume they're going to say it is the center midfielder they do not, then the forward is what they're probably thinking. They don't say goalkeeper.
Speaker 1:Tell me they don't say goalkeeper. Goalkeeper is number four. Who?
Speaker 2:are these people? They're sports analysts. No, they're not, it's that's what it said I? I want to. Can I call a friend? Do you want to call? I want to call scott smith because I don't think he would agree with this list, I think you can call him if you want to.
Speaker 1:He's probably not at work right now. He doesn't work until evening.
Speaker 2:Go for it let's call him okay. So right now you lost your lives.
Speaker 1:We, we're going to keep going. So one I disagree with this wholeheartedly.
Speaker 2:Well, you know you're a sports guy, you're not a sports analyst, so here we go.
Speaker 1:So you have number two is cornerback, you have. Number three is relief pitcher, you have. Number four is goalkeeper, number five is goalie at hockey. Number six is quarterback. You said left tackle, number seven, and point guard, number eight. You've number eight. You've just missed number one. So far it's a baseball position, shortstop. No, what's number one? It says the most difficult position catcher, catcher. It says catcher, uh, let's see what it says.
Speaker 2:I don't disagree. The catcher is a difficult position to play. I'm not sure. I would say it is the most difficult position in sport to play.
Speaker 1:The catching position is by far the hardest position in sports. It says catchers have to squat for nine innings trying to catch baseballs that range from 75 miles per hour with a high spin and movement to pitches with 103 miles per hour with movement as well. Not only that, there's a mental and strategic aspect to catching as well, as catchers usually help determine what pitch should be a throne next.
Speaker 1:So they all kind of like play catchers I know a little bit about play callers I know a little bit about they also have to turn around and hit those aforementioned pitches as well as which as well, which is a difficult job in itself. That's what it says.
Speaker 2:Oh, I have great respect for catchers, so would you put catchers number one? I don't know that I would put them number one. I'd put them on the list.
Speaker 1:I'm pretty high on the list or goalie in hockey Goalie in hockey is it's on the list?
Speaker 2:It's nuts.
Speaker 1:So goalie in A goalkeeper in soccer shouldn't be on the list. No, professional goalkeeper no, really I asked.
Speaker 3:AI what the easiest positions are. And number one said soccer goalkeeper, goalkeeper.
Speaker 1:Well, AI needs to talk to these sports fans.
Speaker 2:I'm surprised Punter would be. That's what I'm saying Based on their list. I'm surprised Punter isn't on there. Should a person?
Speaker 1:Which isn't an easy thing to do, by the way Should a person who does not have necessarily the best of genes not genes you wear, but genes. Yeah, I got it, and they want their kids to play.
Speaker 2:Thanks for mansplaining that to me, you're welcome.
Speaker 1:I am a man and I was explaining. If they want their kid to play professional football, would they have a pretty good chance if they just like, starting at five years old, just teach them how to punt, Give them punting lessons. Be the best punter, Because who does that Right? I mean there might be kicking lessons but, specifically punting. Does anyone does?
Speaker 2:that Right? I mean, there might be kicking lessons, but specifically punting, does anyone do that? Yeah, they do actually Really. People specialize in it, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it is a gift.
Speaker 2:It is talented.
Speaker 1:That young though, yeah.
Speaker 2:I would. I would encourage parents not to pigeonhole their kids into one sport early on. To let them play multiple sports. It'll help them overall Just fine.
Speaker 1:So all the lessons I've given you Fine, fine, fine, fine.
Speaker 2:I put the ball in his left hand and make him throw it.
Speaker 1:Pastor Bob, you're just bantering and bantering and bantering. Let's get on to the topic. The topic is the second commandment.
Speaker 2:I am the one who likes to banter on this group.
Speaker 1:Sub heading is on graven images and golden calves, are we idolizing our sports idols? I don't know I got to meet one.
Speaker 2:You did. You were telling me that story before we came on.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't say first name basis, but we don't want to talk about that. Yes, so on the second commandment.
Speaker 1:So, I wanted to look at a few of the different commandments and just ask some questions. Do they still apply? What do they mean, you know? If they do still apply, how do we apply them to our lives? Will they tell us about the nature of God?
Speaker 1:So the second commandment, specifically, it's found in Exodus 20, verses 4 through 6. I'm going to go ahead and read it. It says this you shall not make for yourselves a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I am the Lord, your God, am a jealous God visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. The second commandment you shall not make for yourself a carved image and specifically, bow down and serve it. Pastor Bob, what is God forbidding here? Can we paint a picture or work with clay? Yes or no?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay. Is there any certain type of artistry that might be prohibited? Type of, not things that you can do with art, but type of Sculpturing, not Engineering? I don't think that's the heart of the okay, the commandment okay, so what is god forbidding here?
Speaker 2:putting anything above him in your devotion in your life in your love specifically, maybe something created specifically in the second commandment. Yes, okay, yes, which builds off of the second commandment. Yes, okay, yes, which builds off of the first commandment, of course.
Speaker 1:Created, which I mean everything is created other than God, right.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:I mean using the creation he has created and creating it into some sort of idol to worship it. Yes, yeah, okay, sure so pretty much distilling it down, worshiping anything other than God.
Speaker 2:I believe that's what it says.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Then it says he's a jealous God. How do you think about that?
Speaker 2:He's rightly jealous. Jealous isn't necessarily a negative thing, it seems like it is in the Bible.
Speaker 2:Well, we put our context onto it. We think jealousy is a bad thing because we typically are jealous for the wrong reasons. But when you are fully deserving of devotion, when you are completely right and completely pure and completely holy and all glorious, you deserve all man's praise. My wife has the right to be jealous of my love towards her. I don't have the right to give any of my affections or love to another woman because I've dedicated my life to her.
Speaker 1:Would you say it like this your wife can be jealous for you because you are hers, right? Okay. So then, if God has created humanity, he can rightly be jealous of their attention and their affection, because humanity was created by him, for him, for him, okay. So he's jealous, rightly so, because he's jealous for the attention and affection of that which he created or belongs to him. Okay, yes. Whereas jealousy in the wrong way would be like man, that was a really cool car I saw outside. That does not belong to me. That's a form of coveting Coveting Right, right, I'm jealous that that guy has that car and I want it, so I covet it. Yeah, you're angry because you, you desire and do not have James, chapter two or three, yeah, or four, I think it's three.
Speaker 2:Is it three?
Speaker 1:It's in there somewhere. Yeah, not, not three. Two is partiality, I think it's three. Three sounds right. Okay, it might be four, I can't remember. Okay, so idolatry is at the heart of the command. Yes, it is. Worship belongs to God and God alone. He is jealous for that worship and demands it.
Speaker 2:Okay, yes, okay, because he knows man's heart is inclined towards it.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:Man's heart is inclined towards it. Okay, man's heart is inclined towards worship. He's created us that way, to recognize that there is something greater than us that we need to worship. And man easily takes that and points it in the wrong direction often.
Speaker 1:What is an example of idolatry in the Old Testament where this was broken very clearly?
Speaker 2:Sure in the Old Testament where this was broken very clearly. Sure, there's many. Probably the most well-known is the golden calf that they created. Just 12 chapters later or something like that. Yeah, when Moses goes up to receive these Ten Commandments, the people of Israel are going. We need a God we can see to worship. We need a God we can touch to worship, and so they melt down their gold and create a golden calf.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in Exodus 32, moses is up on the mountain. They're like did the guy leave us? And of course, moses is relating to God on the mountain. And so they turn to Aaron. Hey, you know Moses, you're friends with him. You're like second command right, we want to worship like the Egyptians did. The Egyptians had this big, great economy. They had all these buildings and they were just blossoming and we're starving and we're frustrated. This does not look like the land of milk and honey. It does not look that great. Over here they're almost like not them. When they're hungry they need to do snickers in some ways, because on this side of the water they're acting like the other side was better.
Speaker 2:Right they're returning to what they had seen, what they had seen modeled before them, the egyptians worshiping multiple gods and depicting them in in artwork, in in statues and monuments, and they would worship them. That's what they saw played out before them all the time.
Speaker 1:So it seems like there in Exodus 32, I just looked at it a minute ago seems like they're shouting out we want some kind of carved image to serve gods. I say gods, and then Moses put some kind of placard on it or an altar on it and says serve the Lord Right.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so Moses is saying like okay, worship this thing in service to the Lord.
Speaker 2:Say that again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exodus, chapter 32. He says this to Aaron. Let's see here, verse 2. Aaron said to them take the rings of gold that are in the ears of your wives, your sons and your daughters, which they would have taken from the Egyptians as they plundered them as God instructed them to. So all the people took the rings of gold that were in their ears and brought them to Aaron. Aaron fashioned a golden calf. They said people, these are your gods, israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt. Gods plural right of the land of Egypt, gods plural right. But they're attributing gods to the golden calf and saying these gods took you out of the land. When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before and Aaron made a proclamation and said tomorrow shall be a feast to the Lord. So it's like we're going to honor the Lord, aaron says, who brought us up out of the land, by worshiping false gods and specifically through the image of a golden calf. It's weird. It's a weird scenario.
Speaker 1:It is yeah, and so, however, I mean, the Lord had given them the command. You don't make images, you don't serve images, you don't worship images. Even if you're saying, well, I'm worshiping the image, but I'd want to serve you, lord, right? You're saying, well, I'm worshiping the image, but I'd want to serve you, lord, right? The only mediator that we have is the grace of God now seen in the face of Jesus Christ, where we have access to God. You don't use any sort of image carved, drawn, to give your worship to the Lord. You can now, of course, this side of the cross, go to Christ by the Spirit, to the Father, but they were.
Speaker 2:Christ is the image of the Almighty God Again it's their hearts crying out for something tangible, something that they can see, hold and worship. They can't see the Lord. So this is what we have already experienced. So let's do this and we see this throughout their history 1 and 2 Chronicles. 1 and 2 Samuel. 1 and 2 Kings experience. So let's do this and we see this throughout their history First and second chronicles. First and second Samuel, first and second Kings.
Speaker 2:It is just a cycle of running after idols, god calling them out for it, sending prophets and judges and saying return, repent. There is condemnation for it, there's repentance. And then they start the whole process all over again, over and over and over and over and over again. Um, we even see it when, um, the fiery serpents come into their, into their camp, um, and Moses instructs them hey, create this stick and hold it up in the air with a serpent on it, and if you look at the serpent on the stick, you'll be healed, and if you don't, you won't. And they do and they're healed. Later on, they have to destroy that stick, because they started worshiping the stick Instead of worshiping God, which is again where I think our hearts are inclined to things that are tangible things. We can see things we can see, things we can touch, relics from the biblical time are still throughout Christianity worshipped.
Speaker 1:Why is that Is it, because trusting in an invisible God requires faith, and faith is hard.
Speaker 2:I think, at the end of the day, yes, trusting in what we can't see.
Speaker 1:Trusting in what we cannot see. Abraham look at the stars. That's an example of what I will do. Yes, that's the trusting what we can't see. Trusting in what we cannot see Abraham look at the stars.
Speaker 2:That's an example of what I will do. Right. And he trusted the Lord and the Lord counted it to him as righteousness, Right. And so you see, you know images that come upon buildings and people go, oh, that looks like the image of Mary, and they begin to worship at the image of Mary because it are a potato chip that looks like you know, just crazy things, but the heart is drawn to worship number one, and worship that which we can see and hold.
Speaker 2:And so there's just this pattern. And it doesn't just have to be inanimate objects, it can be people, it can be pastors, it can be sports stars Any number of things.
Speaker 1:Those are all created beings.
Speaker 2:They are all created beings. They're not graven images in the midst that someone took a piece of stone and carved it out, chiseled it out, or a piece of wood and carved it out, but at the end of the day, it's not God, it is a created being that is designed to point us to God but not point us to themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, people and things make crummy gods oh absolutely. They all have expiration dates. Yes, God does not. Okay, so is this commandment like? Does this still apply today?
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:So Christ, he Ephesians chapter 2, end of chapter 2, abolished the law and commandments that you know. We would probably say those are the ceremonial laws. But how are we to think Christ fulfilled this in some sort of way?
Speaker 2:Oh, as you say, he didn't come to do away with the law, he came to fulfill it. Right, and you have the dietary laws and you have the moral laws, and Christ perfectly fulfilled all these things. He is the image of God.
Speaker 1:I think that's key. He's the image of Almighty God right. He is perfection with feet right. He's perfection with hands, and so when we're to know what God looks like, well, we look at how the Holy Spirit you know, through Mary there's, jesus there's. God, right, I mean, I want to keep my language Trinitarian here, right, but he took on human flesh. So if there could be an idol, right, that's deserving of worship, jesus is he who should be worshiped. He's the image of Almighty God. We worship Jesus.
Speaker 2:Sure, but he's not an idol that we worship. He is God. He is God in the flesh, correct, correct, 100%, 100% and an eternal being part of the triune Godhead who has always been. He just took on flesh.
Speaker 1:Correct. So what I'm trying to say is all these idols that were created by man, they like, just comparing basically a piece of metal to Jesus himself. Right, Jesus does not fail you. A piece of metal will right Sure and any sort of thing that we can create. Well, the God-man was not created, right, he was composed of flesh, but he was God in the flesh.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Romans 1 helps us. You know, we move our eyes from the creator to the creation and in so doing we suppress the truth and begin to worship that which God created not the creator.
Speaker 1:How do we worship God? We look at Jesus. We give our praise and worship to the Son of God.
Speaker 2:Who said if you've seen me, you've seen the Father.
Speaker 1:I and the Father are one. That's right. Yeah, I think that's helpful, right. So all that man tried to construct on its own came for us, the God-man, the image of Almighty God, where the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. Right, we worship Jesus, god in the flesh, who stands between us and God and invites us into the presence of Almighty God. I think that's really helpful, right. You can't create Jesus. He's not created. He is God himself. So I just think there's something there that I think we should just sit back and say God did what even all of the people in the Old Testament tried to do, right, yeah, yeah, sent his son the only one worthy of your worship.
Speaker 2:And again, it all builds off the first commandment you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Well, anything that comes in the way of you loving God with everything you've got your heart, your mind, your soul and strength is an idol, Whether it's a physical idol or a metaphorical idol, whatever it is, whatever draws your attention, whatever draws your devotion, whatever draws you away from pursuing Christ, that becomes your idol, and we have to be very weary of those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think those are two really good words to use. Idolatry incorporates where you place the majority and priority of your attention and what stirs ultimately your greatest affection. It's an attention and affection right. So created things like a phone or created things like some achievement can become an idol right. Anything we can come up with can become an idol.
Speaker 2:And that's not to say we shouldn't enjoy things. God gave us these things for enjoyment. That doesn't mean we can't be fans of sports or arts or pursuing a career. It just means it needs to be properly ordered in our lives.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think. Two questions to ask. Is this an idol in my life? Number one does this steal my attention and affection for the Lord? Does this steal my attention and affection for the Lord. And then number two, if this was taken from me am I just devastated and lost without it?
Speaker 2:Do I find more joy in it than I do in my relationship with Christ? That's good.
Speaker 1:Okay, so here's a random question to throw in at the end of this podcast. So over the years there have been many different ways to create things to remind us of Jesus' work to remind us of the words of God in the Bible, to remind us of God himself In the church. Oftentimes we have crosses. Those are created things, right. Sometimes we'll have pictures of Jesus, maybe in our office or in other buildings, maybe in our homes. Those are created things, created heavenly things. The Sistine Chapel, michelangelo, God himself. I think that's the painting of his finger reaching man, his finger reaching man. During Christmas time we have nativity sets Jesus, god in the flesh, created.
Speaker 1:How do we think of these things.
Speaker 1:I say that because there are some in church history who've kind of pushed back on hey, we shouldn't have those things. Or maybe they make a distinction between God should not be pictured, because he is invisible, but Jesus is the image of God. He was visible. People could see him. If there was cameras, they could have taken a picture of him. If someone sat him down on a chair and had a canvas in front of him, they could have painted him. And so it's okay to have pictures and images of Jesus, so long as we, of course, don't worship that image.
Speaker 2:We worship the Jesus of the Bible, as he's revealed in the Bible Sure, and I think the majority of the things you've just mentioned were created in order to be a tool to tell the story or to remind us of what happened in the Bible that God has revealed.
Speaker 2:Right, so ancient cathedrals in Europe that have these frescoes, that paint these pictures you mentioned the Sistine Chapel there's. All of these things were done prior to print. They were done prior to, obviously, television and pictures and those things, and they were done as tools to tell the story, so that people could point to the picture on the wall and say this is, let me tell you, the story. It was intended to be that way, didn't always stay that way, and that which was created for good again got turned into something that became something that was idolized.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good intentions can still become bad ideas. Sure. Okay, sure yeah.
Speaker 2:And your distinction between creating image of God, who is spirit and we cannot see. We don't know what he looks like. He does not have flesh and blood, like we do, versus creating an image of Christ who. We don't know what Christ looked like, sure.
Speaker 1:But, yet he is, but he did take on flesh he took on flesh.
Speaker 2:He took on the form of a human. He did take on flesh. He took on flesh. He took on the form of a human. So is there a distinction between trying to draw a picture of God and drawing a picture of Jesus? I don't know that. I would make that distinction. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, well, any other thoughts? I probably want to walk back a few of my statements earlier, just to make sure I did not say that Jesus is an idol. Idols are fashioned by man. But Jesus is the image of Almighty God. Any images of ours compare or cannot compare, fail at comparison, and we worship the Son of God, the image of God which is Jesus, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:I still take issue with your so-called sports analyst in their list. I'm bitter.
Speaker 1:So what would be the hardest position? No, no, no, hold on, no, hold on. So, mr Analyst Bob, senior Analyst, senior Pastor, senior Analyst, sports guy, sports ball yeah, baseball is one of your favorite sports. Yeah, soccer is your favorite sport, that's the one I've played the most.
Speaker 2:Baseball is your second favorite sport Only because my boys play it or played it.
Speaker 1:Well, what's your second favorite sport? Cricket. What's your second favorite sport? I don't know that. I rank them actually Okay. What's your second favorite sport? I, really Okay. So what would you say is the hardest position in each sport?
Speaker 2:Let's go, I would just say a professional hockey player. I don't care what position it is. Amaze me, those guys are men. The athletic ability, the hand-eye coordination, the body control, the cardio, the leg strength. The animal instincts, all of that and having to make decisions. I'm amazed by hockey players.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:So I would put them at a level they got to be high. Yeah, I don't disagree that a catcher has to have amazing skills, but there's other positions as well, okay, In baseball hardest position, shortstop Pitcher, first baseman or catcher I would say pitcher, catcher yeah, to be able to do what those guys do with a baseball.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But then I would also add hitting. Hitting a baseball coming at you at 100 miles an hour is Impossible, it's almost impossible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the thing, though it's not technically a position, because they all have to do it. Okay, impossible, it's almost impossible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the thing, though it's not technically a position, because they all correct okay hardest position and would you still say goalie? In hockey they don't move as much. Yeah, they don't, and and you know they've got so much gear on these days, but still, yeah, it's tough, I mean, and that that puck's coming at you when you're getting screened, it's, it's tough, but I I don't know that I would elevate the goalkeeper over the rest of the positions in hockey.
Speaker 2:They're all just impressive Soccer, midfielder or forward. It depends on, honestly, it depends on the structure of the team and how it's played. Usually your center back or your center midfielder are your two strongest players.
Speaker 1:Okay, center back is just like the middle defender.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but he kind of serves almost as a quarterback. Again, it depends on formations. Okay, basketball, probably point guard. Still, I'm not a basketball guy, so Probably point guard Maybe.
Speaker 1:Do they get the ball the most?
Speaker 2:They control the game the most, I suppose.
Speaker 1:They probably shoot near. I would say shooting guard might be more difficult, but they shoot probably near the same amount as a quarterback would Maybe.
Speaker 2:I'm not a basketball guy so. I can't speak with great authority there. Football, would you still say quarterback, quarterback. They have to know so much. They have to know everybody else's role, they have to know everybody else's position. They have to be able to, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1:They've got to have the most pressure on them. But it also depends on what you're running. If you're just running a veer option all the time, you got to be athletic. But you know, I just think I didn't mean to get us back into this conversation.
Speaker 2:By the way, I was just being clever at the end of the conversation we'll close with this.
Speaker 1:I do think pressure has to weigh into this and I don't know that they weighed in pressure. Yeah, um, because a cornerback can make, has to run a lot, has to make really hard to you know, know, whatever plays, but a quarterback, everybody's watching that guy all the time. Right, he has to change his mind in the middle of a, you know, a play. So I don't know, of course, quarterbacks got to be up there.
Speaker 2:Cornerback is tough because you're on an Island Most of the time. You don't always get back up and it's a very reactionary position, Very reaction you have to respond quickly to. You have to read the hips and the feet of the wide receiver, their speed, what they're doing. There's a lot that goes into it, but you could say that about every position on a football field.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a receiver has a route, a cornerbacks. Trying to figure out that route and not let the receiver catch.
Speaker 3:Right so that's.
Speaker 1:That's tricky, and run as fast as the receiver. Yeah, all right. Well, thanks for listening in. Hopefully this was a helpful podcast.
Speaker 3:Kara. Was it helpful? It was pretty helpful. I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:The sports conversation part or the idolatry part.
Speaker 3:The idolatry part.
Speaker 1:And the sports. That was fun. Do you watch?
Speaker 3:any sports I can't say I do oh okay, does Jay yeah what does he watch football?
Speaker 1:football and stuff, yeah does he like any like weird sports, like sports people don't normally watch cricket not that I know cornhole that's alright disc golf he likes that too okay, well, thanks for listening in. We hope you enjoyed your time here. We sure did, and we will see you later bye, have a.
