Unsexy Church
Unsexy Church
Season 3 Episode 5 : Interview with Mike Edens Part 2
Today we have the honor to continue our interview with Mike Edens former IMB Missionary and Seminary Professor at New Orleans Baptist theological Seminary
Hey gang, welcome to the Unsexy Church podcast. So glad that you're back joining us today. Just want to remind all of our FBC Tampa church members and participants and families that our Deacon-sponsored picnic, our family picnic, will be October 5th. So that's coming up really quick. Make sure you make plans to be there. If you were here with us last week, you remember we talked to uh Mike Edens, who was an IMB missionary with uh with the Southern Baptist for 27 years in the Middle East. After that, he was a um professor at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. That's where Pastor Bob graduated from with his MDiv. And we just had a great conversation hearing stories about uh his calling, hearing about his family, and just hearing stories from the mission field. And uh, if you remember, we had to cut that conversation short. We wanted to be able to share the rest of it with you. So that's what we're doing today. If you weren't able to listen to the previous podcast, I would suggest that you would go back, listen to part one of this conversation, and then today we'll finish up with part two. So sit back and enjoy the conversation with Mike Edens.
SPEAKER_02:You know, this this thing about leading, one of the most important things that every one of us who are Christ followers do is we pray for Christ to be known by those around us. And for a long time I thought that meant I had to be the one that that was with someone when they prayed to receive Christ. Right. And working with Muslims, I've I've come to find out that God has a lot of different avenues. He has a lot of different connections with any individuals that that is open to his leadership. And sometimes we're we're to use Paul's illustration, sometimes we're just waterers of the soil, sometimes we're seed sowers, sometimes we're cultivators, sometimes we manage the the sickling and the and the preserving of of the seed. But you know, if we if we are supposed to be doing this part of the task and we're engaged in trying to do this part, it's not gonna work real good. That's right.
SPEAKER_01:So as an individual who was called of God to a relationship with Him, then called into ministry, served in a church, then called to the mission field, went on the mission field, then called to the seminary in order to train up the next generation, you can help speak into the lives of folks that are kind of feeling these calls of God. And I think we have some of these within our church. Um everywhere. Yeah, exactly. And we need to call them out, right? Um so if you were to speak to the folks that are in our church that are feeling a sense of calling, either to vocational ministry, to vocational missions, or even if it's not that, it is being called to do something more even here in ministry or whatever. What what kind of words of wisdom would you would you give to them?
SPEAKER_02:Change of geography is not nearly as important to fulfilling the mission of God as change of attitude and heart. Um one of the I have a lot of stories. So a story that found its its um home with me a long time ago. I was uh doing a chronological uh step-by-step Bible study with a guy named Jamal, a Muslim background believer, somebody else had led him to Christ, and we were out on the street, you know, out in public doing a Bible study, which you can do because people ignore two guys just sitting drinking tea together, and we had a Bible in front of us, and we're studying Galatians, and we're in chapter three, and we had begun the study with our tea, with Jamal asking me a question about some conflict that was going on in the United States where Christians were fighting with Christians, and he said, Well, they're they're just they're eaten up with a desire for power. I said, Yeah, unfortunately, that's right. And so we're we're reading in uh Galatians chapter three, we got to the end of the chapter, and and uh I said something about uh the the how I saw this passage, and Jamal said, wait a minute, you're seeing that in way too limited a way. And he and he from his Muslim background he he talked about what Paul was really saying about all not not being Jew and not being Greek and not being male and not being female female being in Christ and and he says, You you're missing the power of God in this. And and he says, How how how can you not see that? And I I I realize that because we live in echo chambers where most people around us have similar life experience, similar generation, similar culture, and so they see things largely the way we see them. And it takes the Holy Spirit breaking us out of that, or another world view that has come into Christ and is being adapted and changed and transformed by the body of Christ uh to show us that. And I realized, you know, we really we diversity is a bad word in in today's American society, but we need all of us looking with all of our hearts at Scripture with all of our experience and letting the Holy Spirit speak to us so that we can get it. We it's it's not so easy for us to get it sometimes. Yeah, you're right. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So just to kind of switch gears a little bit, we have we've kind of covered your background a little bit, your surrender to the call of uh going to the mission field. And you end up going to Egypt, right, right? So how long were you in Egypt?
SPEAKER_02:Uh we were in Egypt 17 years, uh working with Egyptian Muslims and Christians. There's about 10% of the population are Christian, and there's a small Baptist convention of churches, uh, about 12 churches today, that uh we worked with. And so we were working with three segments of society there. And we were there 17 years. And the last year, the the last two years of that, I was uh helping develop leaders throughout the Middle East in a decentralized program. Muslim background background believers can't go to their government and say, hey, I'd like to go to Lebanon and go to the seminary to get it because God called me to preach, and they're like, there are only three or four things wrong with that proposition. And so we we had a uh a process where a brother named Weldon Bertell uh took uh his life experience and developed programmed learning for uh tutor-based uh teaching. And we we had 40 different books that we had translated into Arabic, and we we had tutors all over the Middle East working with small groups, usually one-on-one or one-on-two, uh, helping them develop into the the minister that God wanted them to be. So I was doing that for the last two years, but then after that got called into working in a deeper way all over the place.
SPEAKER_00:So um when you arrived there, what did you what did you find uh you know, as far as you know, you you said these words, uh you you're a country boy, right? Right. And and you are in the middle of the of Cairo. Um what what were some of the things that maybe surprised you the most when you got there? What were some of the things that were maybe some of the hardest obstacles, maybe learning language, those those kind of things?
SPEAKER_01:So while you're answering that, my the perception is you if you're a missionary, for me, you go to Egypt and a missionary, your life is constantly under threat, right? So I so help, you know, what was that like? Because you were the tip of the spear. If you were going in and there wasn't a present for the yeah, there's not a word. Yeah. There's not a word. You guys are the tip of the spear going in. Now your role changed over the years. But yeah. So answer you know, Darren's question about the the the different things with that bigger, because I have no clue what it's like to go there and Well, we we're weird, right?
SPEAKER_02:Begin with that. Uh while we were here in in training, in the process of going, we're praying about going, and the Southern Baptist International Mission Board leadership, and Madeline and I came up with a wild idea. Uh this is um January of uh 1981, and Jimmy Carter had just been um uh had failed to be re-elected, and he was in Plains, Georgia, and we were in missionary orientation at Callaway Gardens, Georgia. And uh so we came up with this wild idea. He was personal friends with the president of Egypt. And um so we said, what if uh Madeline and I and the girls took the girls with us because the girls are cute, you know. We we go over to Marinatha Church uh for a Sunday morning and we sit in uh Jimmy Carter's Sunday school class, and afterwards, between worship or after worship, we say, um, Mr. Carter, I have a request to make of you. And um and J.D. Huey said, the the area director for that region of the world said, I'll write a letter to support it and have that in your breast pocket. I said, Mr. President, um, we know that you have relationships with the people in Egypt, and we have a calling to go and minister to the people of Egypt. Would you be willing to write to President Sadat and request that he grant us permission to go and into Egypt and reside there and minister to the Egyptian people? And J.D. Huey is a man of real faith. He said, let's request three couples. You know, he's gonna get three. And so sure enough, in February of 19 uh, uh, we go to Marinatha Church, had a wonderful Bible study, wonderful worship service, and in the in the aisle of the church after service, met Jimmy and Rosan Rosalind Carter and made my request. And Jimmy said, I'll certainly pray about it. And he took the letter and responded back Monday, yes, I will I will do that. So a few weeks later, in April of 1981, President Sadat was visiting in Washington, and President Reagan lent him transportation to go to Plains, Georgia and see his friend Jimmy Carter, who had something he wanted to share with the president. And so President Sadat graciously uh read the request, heard the request of Jimmy Carter, and agreed, and he he sent a positive response back to us, and we went with on tourist visas to Egypt, not with no recognized Baptist work ever having been there before. So as a result of that, as we were we were through the the years, I would get in um difficulties with the Ministry of State Security for Religious Affairs, which is the detectives that watch Christians and Muslim fundamentalists, I should add. And they would have various reports uh uh So they sorry, they watch Muslim fundamentalists. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah, they watch them also and and they try to keep both sort of in check.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:That's that's their role. So uh they would get a report that um you you're allowed to answer any question about Jesus Christ, about Christianity that anyone gives you, about the Bible anyone gives you. And and you're you're allowed to live your Christian faith. But you're not allowed to proselytize. Now, proselytizing is not just evangelism. Proselytizing is giving any material encouragement to a Muslim to leave Islam and become a Christian. Now, your missionaries are not engaged in proselytizing. You know, uh on one occasion the detectives had me in and they would they were questioning me about things, and and finally they came point blank to the question look, this uh friend of ours has given us a report that you're giving$50 to every Muslim who comes to faith in Christ and becomes a Christian, and that you have have uh a number. I won't give the number he used, but because it's irrelevant, because only God knows. But uh who have become come this way. And I quickly did the math and I said, well, that's that's this amount of money, and you know my bank account. You know my bank account. So you know I don't have that kind of money. But besides all that, I am not interested in giving anyone some sort of enticement to become a Christian because if I can entice them to become a Christian, someone else can entice them to leave Christianity. I want people to know who Jesus is. And then I explained the gospel plainly to the detective. You know. They would send spies to go and listen to me as I I preached in in village churches, and and uh then they would call me into the the local um police headquarters and say, uh, tell me exactly what you meant by this, and I would explain the gospel to them. I would explain, you know, I there are there are commentaries from a large portion of the Bible throughout the Egyptian uh Secret Service, you know, and because I would explain to them. But I had I learned that I could do that. Not every every missionary could do that, but I could do that because while I was talking, they're looking through my file. And eventually, if I talk long enough, and I'm good at talking, okay. If I talked long enough, they would come to the page in my file that was a letter from the president of Egypt.
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_02:And they would look at that, and then they would turn that page, and there was a letter from the president, former president of the United States with a personal note, a stick'em note attached with his signature on it. And then they would look, and I knew I always knew when they got there. And and I I learned what was going through their mind. Who is this? Because in their world, presidents don't write letters for nobody's but a believing follower of Christ writes letters for brothers to open doors for them. And so we were we at risk? Yes, the Egyptian government was constantly deporting really effective more effective ministries than I was. But I had a silver bullet that I was willing to use that that kept Madeline and I there.
SPEAKER_01:God's amazing how he works out things, you know. For sure.
SPEAKER_00:Just the sovereignty of God, right? Who who's really in charge here? Exactly. You know, yeah. It's amazing. So the background of the folks in in Egypt, I'm um we're assuming many of them, most of them are are Muslim, but what's the just give us a snapshot of the of the culture that you were in, maybe um some of the uh maybe uh a religious and spiritual background synopsis maybe of the folks that you were around?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I want to begin with something that maybe our listeners wouldn't recognize. These are all Arabs. And the one of the first elements of Arabic culture, Arab culture, is hospitality and interdependence. Because it's a desert mentality. You don't survive in the desert. You need each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta have each other. And so when they see a stranger, that's somebody who needs somebody. They see a stranger, that's somebody who can be part of my network. And so they they would um we we were very early on, the four of us, uh the two girls and Madeline and I were in downtown uh Cairo, and they had a raised walkway in this square, this Madan, this circle, traffic circle called Tahrir. And we were up on the on this uh walkway trying to figure out which of these several spoke streets we wanted to go off on to get to this restaurant. And we had this map out. And this Egyptian air pilot with fluent English comes up, you know, and not in uniform. We found out later he's a pilot, and he says, um, excuse me for interrupting, but but might I be of assistance to you? And we say, Well, we we don't want to bother you, but we we're trying to find this restaurant. And and uh and it looks like maybe we go down that street. He said, Yes, that's that's actually the street you go to that restaurant, but there's a better restaurant. If you if you have time, we'll have to walk a little bit farther, but I would love to take you to one of my favorite restaurants. Well and so we're walking. I mean, he he left, he was obviously going somewhere. He was obviously doing something, but he saw a stranger and he said, so the people may not recognize that about Arabic culture, but that's it. So the the population religiously, about 10 to 15 percent are Coptic Orthodox Christians or Protestant Christians within that network. The other 85 percent, most of them, probably about 82 percent, are Sunni Muslims. And there's probably a smithing, just a small group of Shiite Muslims and Sufi Muslims. Sufi Muslims are the mystics of Islam. And uh so that's that's sort of the spread of who the people are.
SPEAKER_01:Aaron Ross Powell Is there such a thing as a religious Muslim or a cultural You know, in the States we've got people that think they're Christians?
SPEAKER_02:Trevor Burrus There's a large uh a large number of Muslims in any culture here in the United States, or you know, we have about 35,000 Muslims here in the Tampa, Greater Tampa area, and most of them probably are cultural Muslims. Now that means that they are aware of the tenets of Islam, they are in favor of them, they want their family to move forward and to be a respectful uh and respected family in the society, and they they they are in favor of that. At least 50 percent in any Muslim community are are cultural Muslims. Uh they there are probably about twenty fifteen to twenty percent of the population that are um religious Muslims. They are uh they are very well versed in the documents of Islam. They are very active in in the pillars, the five behaviors of Islam. They are they are encouraging other people to do that, and they're they're they're what we would call religious Muslims. There is a a small percentage that remain, and part of that is agnostic Muslims. They they still are aware of the um tenets of Islam. They were brought up that way, but they have left Islam in practice. And then there's that very even smaller percentage, maybe 1% or even a half percent of the population that are, and it's hard to put a title to it. The media puts different titles to it: jihadist Islam, political Islam, politically violent Islam. Uh they are engaged in enforcing the view of Islam that they have on every other person in the world that they come in contact with.
SPEAKER_01:Aaron Powell And I think it's that 1% or half percent that most people when we think of because that's what we've been conditioned to think about.
SPEAKER_02:Since 9-11, 2001, the the fear of that small minority of Muslims and Sharia, the in imposition of Islamic law on non-Islamic cultures has driven much of our cultural view of Islam.
SPEAKER_01:Um they're a small portion, but they're a loud and forceful portion, right?
SPEAKER_02:It we it's not quite the same thing, but back in the day, about twenty years ago, when the militant Christian opposition to abortion was going on in this country, and there were there were firebombings and and and assassinations of doctors who were performing abortion. We all knew that was just a small portion of the Christian community, but there was an attempt on the part of some people to say that's a Christian view. You know, and and that that's somewhat the same thing.
SPEAKER_00:So when you so I'm just just go ahead. I'm just gonna smatter you with different questions, right? So what uh so when you were over in Egypt, what or anywhere in the Middle East, what did you find was maybe what did you miss most about the United States?
SPEAKER_02:Aaron Ross Powell Well, hamburgers are available in the Middle East, all over the place. There's there are restaurants, there's a restaurant chain called Wimpy's. It's a British restaurant chain. And we would never eat a hamburger in the Middle East within nine months of returning from the United States. Because it wasn't. It wasn't, you know. And and so, you know, there there are some dietary things that but there are things that I miss from there. We're we're having international students over That was my next question. What do you miss most from the Middle East? We we've got we've got uh friends, international students here at uh UT that are going to come to our house in a couple uh about two weeks, I guess, on a Tuesday night. And uh because they're eclectic, there's a German, there's a Nepalese, there's an Indian, there's a Southern Sudanese, and and uh so I told them uh we were meeting together last night, we weren't at the trivia event because we were uh at the kickoff of this with crew. And so I said, look, we're gonna have koshery. It's my favorite food in the whole world. It's uh vegetarian, but it's uh I can't describe it to you, do justice to it. But I miss koshery. If there were a kosher that would open in Tampa, I would be there. You would keep them in business. At least once a week. At least once a week. Um I miss I miss the culture that welcomes God to um everyday constant conversation. Every conversation begins with a reference to God. And every every time that uh I would at end a conversation with a taxi driver or somebody I'd just met and say, look, I I I know you are praying to be in the straight path. I pray for my friends to know the straight path, and his name is Jesus. Would you mind if when I think of you from in in the future that I pray for you in the name of Jesus that you you find the straight path? Nobody ever refused that. Now, I've had lots of people refuse to let me pray for them in free cultures, right? But in Islamic culture, I've never had someone refuse to let me pray for them.
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:I think we're probably more familiar with the dissimilarities between Christianity and Islam. Um and rightfully so. There are the there are clear theological differences, right? But what what what's some commonality that that if somebody wanted to this is one of the things I really enjoyed about the class you taught. Uh because the concept was just engaging our Muslim neighbors. So what are some commonalities that might some starting points that we might be able to open some conversations with somebody?
SPEAKER_02:Well, the the biggest one probably doesn't come off the page of of the class uh the last few weeks, but family. Every Muslim adult wants their children and their family to do well, to succeed. Success is, you know, we talk about the prosperity gospel in in the church, and well, Muslims all believe that God's blessing is seen in success. And so they are they are interested in that. But of course, they don't know what real success is, just like the prosperity gospel doesn't know what real success is. So that's one one point. Share with them your commitment to your family and give them a point of contact there. I think also the the the biggest need for Muslims, Muslims will tell you they love Jesus. Right. They love the prophet Jesus, they don't know his teachings, they they they know he raised the dead, he uh gave sight to the blind, he made the The deaf to hear. He uh had all these miracles, but that's the full extent of what they know. They know the the headline, they don't know any of the content. So I try to play off on their um knowledge that they're supposed to love the the Quran says they should love Jesus, and their teachers tell them they should love Jesus. So since they love Jesus, I want to say, let me let me tell you the story about Jesus giving sight to the blind, raising the dead, and and and give the Holy Spirit opportunity to create a thirst and a hunger for that so that they can get in into studying the Bible. Most Muslims think that the Bible that we have is not the Bible that Jesus was given, um, but they don't have a solid view of that. So get them in, get them into the Bible, get them into the words of Jesus as quickly as you can.
SPEAKER_01:Trevor Burrus, Jr. So it's really no different than uh an unbeliever in the state. You want to point them to Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Right. At the end of the day, you want to point them to Jesus.
SPEAKER_02:The problem in our world, in our culture, in our city, in our families is not sorry to get political here. It's not transsexuals. It's not having Jesus in the center of a heart. You know. Regardless of how you feel about any political issue, any social issue, they're symptoms. They're all secondary. They're all secondary. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
unknown:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Um maybe if you could just give us you gave us some conver a good conversation starter. Just one, two, three, four things, maybe quickly. W what do you wish every maybe Westerner or American, um, what do you wish that they could know or realize as they're talking to a Muslim friend, coworker, neighbor?
SPEAKER_02:I wish that we all knew that um God is way out in front of us and is working in hearts that we can't we can't see. Um many times when I had an impulse to share with a Muslim or uh tell stories with Muslim or intercept a Muslim who was doing something, uh I I realized afterwards God had been working in that in that field, in that person a long time before I did. I was on a on a plane flying back from uh doing some training with tutors in one Muslim country flying back to Egypt, and Egypt Air was was showing the native uh airline of of that country their new 767, and uh so they were they were showing them uh and they had executives from that airline on the on the flight. And they they were back in coach with me, not you know, there were probably some guys that were up, but we didn't, I don't have contact with those people. Anyway, so there was a guy back there from this national airline, and he was hitting on this lady. Well, there were just a few of us. It was a red night, red eye special, you know, and and we left there at 11 o'clock at night, and we were getting into Egypt uh into Cairo at like 1.30 or 2 o'clock in the morning. And uh so it was the middle of the night, and um Muslim men are always interested in a new wife, you know, not limited to one, and you know, and and so he was hitting on this gal, and she wasn't interested. And there were just uh in my mind right now, I only see four of us in the in the section. And so I decided I'm not gonna let this go on. And I so I engaged him in conversation and and started talking with him, and it came, an opportunity came to tell a story about Abraham. And Abraham is well venerated in in the Quran and in Islam, and so I told the story about Abraham, and the guy said, that is really I said, that's from the Bible. Would you like to hear another story? And he said, Yeah. So I told him the story of David and and quoted the 23rd Psalm to him. He said, that's really beautiful. He said, Do you have another story? And so I said, look, let's go. And I started telling stories of Jesus and this story and that story. I told stories the whole rest of the way into Cairo. And and I thought, he kept asking for stories. He wanted to know more. And I wasn't plowing in a field that was a virgin field. It was a it was a field that God had been working in. I didn't ever see that guy again, but I'm confident that God has been putting him in contact with other people who know Jesus so he can so be be responsive. Know that God is out there. And you know, fear is a terrible thing, but guilt is a terrible thing too. And and when you walk away from someone having not shared with them, you're gonna feel a twinge of, hmm, man, I should have. Right. And so deal with your fear right now, before you meet those people. What what are you afraid of? Are you afraid that you're gonna mess them up? Trust me, Islam has already messed up. They're already messed up. You're not gonna hurt them any worse.
SPEAKER_00:But just can I uh to say something that I learned, I d not learned, but just was reminded of in in your class when you addressed this topic. Um, you said you the one thing you said is remember God is your security. Yeah. God is your security. He is your rock, he is your fortress, right? He is your shield. And if so if we can deal with that on the front end and remember that on the front end, that would be helpful.
SPEAKER_02:We, you know, your missionaries around the world in all their different settings, in all of the different cultures, and you've experienced this working alongside of them. Know and rely on that fact. We have a wonderful financial support system for our missionaries in the cooperative program. I'm so thankful for it. But I am more thankful that that cooperative program is just a markerplace for the prayer support of thousands of people. We had a lady, dear lady in in uh Bartsville, Oklahoma. Never met her. She went home to be with the Lord before I got an opportunity to meet her. She wrote to us back in the day before emails and all that stuff. She wrote us once a month for four years, and we would write back and she would ask, How can I pray for you? And she, I'm convinced that a lot of those people that I met that were open for the gospel and who wanted to know stories and wanted to know what Jesus really meant was because of that lady in Bartsville who was praying and God was answering her prayers and honoring her prayers. So yeah, God is our rock, and He has people who are praying for us, and and you know, well, let's be bold.
SPEAKER_00:And that's another thing that you just kept saying is we're, I mean, you even set up a prayer, a real-time prayer network right right then and there through through text messages that you it's this takes you must bathe this effort in prayer, and you need lots of people praying for you.
SPEAKER_02:I mentioned that I was uh in the Navy and I was transferred right after getting married, I was transferred to a destroyer. And um as far as I could tell, I was the only Christian. I was the only follower of Christ, committed follower of Christ. I probably there were probably uh Christians who were not active on the ship, about uh 240 guys on the ship, officers and men. I was an enlisted man, and uh so I was praying for for God to give give the gospel fruit and or show me a believer. And so I was on night watch, tied up to the side of the pier, and I was walking the decks, keeping the ship safe, and uh and and I heard amazing grace being whistled through the center corridor ship, and I went dashing because you know it echoes and you and I went dashing through the ship. I found this guy eventually as he got he was putting his his stuff in his his birthing uh uh locker. His name was Al Laney. He he was killed sometime after that, but we had great fellowship. So I I would pray for, in addition to wisdom and and a sense of God being your security, I would pray for fellowship because we shouldn't go through this life uh just as a Lone Ranger, a follower of Christ. We have a core group that we're part of. Kent uh leads us, and and we have great fellowship and uh in that. And I I hope everyone has people that they can entrust their prayer concerns to and share their burdens with. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:I know we we're gonna wrap up at some point. I think we can keep going. But yeah, that's not true. What would you say to the person that says, I don't know enough about Islam to engage somebody in Islam? One of the things I picked up from the class was um point them to Jesus, know what you believe about Jesus. Right, right. Don't try to know so much about the Quran that you can point out the in in inconsistencies and break down the Quran, um but but rather maybe be familiar with the tenets of Islam. Right. Um but so what would you say to the person that says, I don't know enough about Islam to engage in uh a Muslim?
SPEAKER_02:If if they have that feeling, they have two avenues. One, they can contact us or they can look on you, you know, you have Google, you can ask Google a question. Google, what are the basic tenets of Islam? And it'll give you straightforward. It'll it'll lay them out there to you. And and you can ask it any question. You can become a pretty, pretty aware, simply aware uh Christian just by Google. Second, you know, you have people like me. Um, I tell Baptists all the time, but I'll say this to any Christian who who wants it, I'm your free consultant. I've been paid for, you know, I'm I'm I'm yours. So, you know, contact me and I'll I'll try to answer it. But another element is look, if you have a relationship with a Muslim and you don't know enough about Islam in general, you don't need to know about Islam in general. You need to know who this guy is, who this lady is. So ask them, what do you believe about Jesus? Or what do you believe about prayer? Or who is Muhammad to you? And they'll tell you. And by the way, frequently what you find, remember I said 50% of Muslims anywhere, at least that, are cultural Muslims, they're value Muslims, and they aren't into deep Quranic studies anyway. So they'll give you their view, and you don't want to deal with general Islam, you want to deal with this person. This person is the one that God has an appointment with for you, for you to share Christ with. So find out who they are and what they believe. That's a good word.
unknown:Definitely.
SPEAKER_00:Uh maybe just one last we've I mean we could probably talk another hour, really. Um ruin timelines. Mike, what would you how would you respond to the person who I mean I mean just if you just Google open doors watch list, right? Right. I mean, nine of the top ten most dangerous countries for a Christian to be in are all the main religion is Muslim and they're under Muslim control, Muslim gov governments. Um, eight of those are are Muslim governments anyway, I think. What how would you respond to someone? You know, he says, I you know matter of fact, I mean, like someone who would say, you know, this guy living next door to me is a terrorist, right? Why why would I want to reach out to him? You know, what uh what what do you say to a person like like that?
SPEAKER_02:Well, um I would encourage them to to uh think about the apostle Paul. You know, God didn't choose for the apostle to the Gentiles somebody who was just nam de pamdy about the gospel. He chose somebody who was absolutely violently opposed, he put people to death because they were following each other's way, and God met him and changed him. Some of the most beautiful, beautiful followers of Christ that I've ever known came to Christ from violent Islam.
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_02:And just I'll try to I try to I don't do short stories, but I'll try to compress this. So so Mahmoud was second in command in the Delta of Egypt, which is a large population area, for a group called Gamiat Islam, the the Society of Islam, or the that'll do anyway. And and so he was a recruiter, and so he was in a town, a city of about four million people, but as a town, and and uh on the Suez Canal, halfway between the north and the south, and he was recruiting youth for his organization. And a Presbyterian, evangelical deacon in a robe with a Bible was in his right hand, you wouldn't carry it in your left hand, was walking by, and he thought, I'll I'll show these kids, you know, and he made fun of this deacon, and he he he saw him come and he started in trash talking with him, and and as he got alongside of him, he says, What's that you got in your hand, old man? And the deacon stopped. He undid the zipper and opened it. He said, It's the word of God. It is the living word of God. Have you ever read it? And my mother railed on him and cussed at him and and he said, You oughta read it. Close it up, walked on. For months and years, you oughta read it, you oughta read it. It's a living word of God, you oughta read it. It kept echoing in his mind. And he would he would get a copy of the Bible, he flushed one down a toilet in in one country, he shredded one in another country. He he he just he wanted to and he couldn't. He wanted to and he couldn't. He finally he was so conflicted, he told the organization, I've gotta, I've gotta settle something. Didn't tell him what it was. I've got to settle something. And he went to his mother's village, into his mother's house with a Bible, and he was studying the Bible in his room. Nobody knew what he was doing. And he finally said, God, I'm just so fed up talking to God in Arabic, because that's God's Arabic language, of course. So fed up, he tells me. He slammed the Bible shut, put it in his cupboard, closed the door, said, If you're God, if you're Jesus and you're God, you gotta show me. And he walked out into the village and got some fresh air. He came back to his room, unlocked the door, walked in. His Bible is on his cot in front of him. And it's open. What does it say, Bob? All ye who are weak and weary, heavily laden, come unto me, and I will give you rest. And Mahmoud fell to his knees and asked Jesus to come into his heart. He told me that story. And he told me other stories about how God preserved him. But you know, here was and and this was not the only violent Muslim leader of a Muslim organization. These are these are fierce people that God plucked out of that. Because stop and think about it. If you had a choice to be used of God to share the gospel with a secular Muslim who was, eh religion, yeah, God, yeah, maybe. Or somebody who said, I will die to establish what I think is true religion. And you knew that God would use you to reach whichever one you went to, which would you choose to go to? Sure you would. Because that guy could be solved to become Paul. And it's really beautiful when you see that guy, you see that lady. So if if if you're afraid of that guy, just remember Paul and say, Lord, would you let me be a part of what you're doing, of making Jesus known to him, to her.
SPEAKER_00:Because that's what we're about. I think it's a good uh good note to end on, actually. That's uh just then get much more beautiful than that. I know we I I didn't ask all the questions I wanted to ask. I know Bob's probably got questions that he would like to ask, but just reminds me of 2 Corinthians 5.21. If anyone's in Christ, he is a new creation. And and in that same context, we Paul's saying we are ambassadors for Christ, right? We're all all called to to this work, where what in whatever context that that we're in. Mike, man, we just want to say thank you for joining us at the Unsexy Church podcast. Remember all of you out there, stay unsexy.
